D.A. Murray's Dominion Ascension: Turning the Gender War Inside Out

The 35th episode of The Science Fiction & Fantasy Factory features Mookie sharing the mic with debut novelist D.A. Murray to break open her provocative novel Dominion Ascension: a dystopian world where men are reduced to tools, women run everything, and control becomes the real antagonist.

Her set-up is sharp, a post-war society reshaped by chemical damage and role reversal. The result is an authoritarian matriarchy that inverts the old system and then exposes it. Through Donnie, Linda, and Robbie, Murray builds a character-driven story that refuses to hide behind worldbuilding. Her story is about power, who holds it, and what they’re willing to do to keep it. 

Mookie pushes on the obvious question: is this feminist revenge fantasy, or something more uncomfortable? D.A.'s answer cuts deeper: the book goes beyond the cliche of men versus women to explore the mechanisms of ontrol versus humanity. Swap the players, and the same corruption shows up. Absolute power doesn’t care who’s holding it.

Their conversation goes into... 

•  The real-world Gen Z gender divide—and why this story hits now 
•  How slow, incremental loss of freedom is more dangerous than sudden oppression 
•  The role of technology as both enabler and jailer 
•  Why character—not lore—is what makes sci-fi actually land 

They also get brutally practical about writing and publishing:

•  Why writing the book is the easy part 
•  The business side of being an author (and why most people ignore it) 
•  Beta readers, market awareness, and not deluding yourself 
•  The long game: building an audience, not chasing a miracle 

Murray doesn’t pretend this is a hobby, but treats it like a system. Her great advice to writers: Learn the industry, test your work, find your people, then keep going... And underneath it all, there’s something more personal which fuels the emergent drama: a controlled burn of D.A.'s lived experience, turned into powerful storytellilng.

The Guest

D.A. Murray is an emerging voice in feminist speculative fiction, balancing roles as a tech executive, debut novelist, and digital creator. Her novel Dominion: Ascension reimagines gender dynamics in a post-apocalyptic world, exploring power, resilience, and societal transformation.

Originally from California and now based in Chicago, Murray has built a strong following on Instagram and TikTok, where she shares insights on writing, women’s empowerment, and creativity. Her #WritersInTech and #ReadWithMe series highlight her journey and spotlight female-driven stories.

With degrees from UCLA and Kellogg, she brings a cross-cultural, business-minded lens to storytelling. She also speaks on the intersection of technology, narrative, and modern feminism, while leading workshops that amplify women’s voices.

WELCOME TO DAMURRAY'S OFFICIAL WEBSITE

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:03

Hello and welcome to the science fiction and fantasy factory. I'm your host, Mookie Spitz, and on the factory floor today, I'm thrilled to welcome D.A. Murray. Welcome aboard, DA. You are a debut speculative fiction novelist. You're a technologist by trade, and you're kicking some butt on TikTok too. I just just followed you, and you've got some exciting stuff that you share through the social medias. And I love your book. I love the concept about it. I can't wait to dive in with you. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. What an amazing uh opportunity and and day. It could not be a more beautiful day here in Chicago to talk about science fiction.

SPEAKER_05 0:57

Where in Chicago you live in, more or less.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yeah, I live in the River West neighborhood. So yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:05

I know that well. I lived by Wrigley Field for years.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10

And you're a California native, and now I'm in California. So we've we've we've flipped. And your story is terrific. I already see the Netflix mini-series, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

I love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:30

And and I I I usually don't say that with guests and with books that I read, but it's so topical right now. You've got the Gen Z divide between women and men. It's never been this intense before. And there's a role reversal. If you look at Pew Research, women are kicking butt, better educated, better jobs, better social network. And Gen Z guys are really, really struggling. I'm a debut novelist too, and that's one of the themes of my book. But you take it to the next level in this kind of reverse handmaid's tale, where if I get you right, I'm gonna pass the mic right to you. But just to set it up for our listeners and viewers, there's a great war, there's there's chemical damage, and men are compromised. Let's just say that. And there's a role reversal, it's an authoritarian matriarchy that rules the roost. And you focus on three main characters: Linda, Matthews, and Donnie, the mother and the daughter, and they're in the system, they're in this authoritarian matriarchy. And then you have Robbie, an old flame of Donnie's, who's a breeder. So I think I think our viewers and listeners can see where this is going, which is women dominate everything. Men are literally tools.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:13

And that's the essential theme and and kind of backdrop for your novel. Did I get any of that wrong?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

No, I think you hit the pin on the head. Definitely, Mookie. Um, I think one of the things that is also a really important aspect to this book is the fact that all of these characters that you have mentioned lived in this, you know, this society before Dominion was established. So there's a really interesting, you know, kind of reflection, if you will, of what life was like before Dominion and after Dominion. So I will just add that to the uh to the mix.

SPEAKER_05 3:54

Okay, so there's there's context and continental.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, there's context. There's context.

SPEAKER_05 4:00

The name of your book is Dominion Ascension.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

And and it's already getting some great reviews. It's it's on Amazon, yeah, and uh, and and people should get it. So I'm gonna put the the link and the info in the description so they could check it out for themselves. But uh, but that's essentially the setup. There's this societal role reversal, and you've got Donnie who's kind of like wondering what's up.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, I guess you can say that. I I mean I and I think the thing that um was really important about this book too is while there is definitely kind of this depiction of what this world looks like, right, in great detail, but very important, right? Um, there's also um other types of things that I think are really critical. Um the relationship between mother and daughter is a very important thing that underlays this book. And uh it's almost as if the relationship between Danny and Linda almost kind of reflects the relationship at a societal level and how dominion is evolving. And so that's a very important aspect of this book. And I think the other piece of it is the role that technology plays in advancing um humanity as we understand it today and as we understand it in the future. So those are other, I think, really important components as well.

SPEAKER_05 5:40

I think that dimensionality lends a lot of strength and and focus to your book. And now some folks might be thinking, again, you have the moniker feminist attached to your descriptors, and this is what I got out of the book, and I wanna I want to hear what you think. Okay, without giving any spoilers away, but authoritarianism and dominion and control are no bueno. So whether it's men doing it in a patriarchy or whether it's compensatory in this matriarchal authoritarian state, I got the impression that what you're trying to convey is that that kind of control state authority is terrible for humanity. That that we need to find a balance between these forces. And the genders need to kiss and make up, or at least make up, which is let's let's find a balance without overdoing it, and let's understand and accept ourselves regardless of race and gender and ageism and all those usual limiting factors. Is that is that right? Because I'm getting a feeling from your book, and your feeling is humanistic.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there's there's a sacrifice that's being made. Um, it's it's almost kind of like this great war has happened, tremendous destruction and impact, and the need to get to some place where we can start to function again. And the needs of the many become much more critical than the needs of the few, or the overall sense of humanity is defined by what everyone potentially needs versus individuality, who we are as humans, what makes us different, what makes us unique in our ability to contribute to the evolution of society. And so there's kind of this, you know, push and pull, if you will, between the need to want to seek, you know, your ability to why am I here? What is the individual, you know, significance of what I can deliver versus I need to just fall in line and do what I'm told to do because this is what's going to be best for society.

SPEAKER_05 8:24

And it's all through the lens of gender, gender power, through the lens of gender gender politics.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:31

Can you tell us a little bit about what inspired you and some of your feelings in writing this? Because I got the feeling about your feeling that there was a certain sense of release and catharsis for you, too. But it put it putting women in control in this kind of complete way.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it definitely was cathartic for me to talk about this or write about this in this story. And um, I think one of the main reasons, I mean, I, you know, as a female, um, as someone who has, you know, been in corporate America for 20 plus years, I have definitely experienced the opportunities and challenges of being a woman in corporate America and also being a woman in society, quite honestly, and just you know, and and and the role that often women have to play. We have to be the caretakers, we have to be the ones that really kind of bring the peacemakers and bring things together, you know, and at the same time, we have to be, you know, imaginative and we have to be capable, and all of the things that make uh that make leadership such an incredible part of advancing society forward. But unfortunately, it is often the case that women don't always get credit for how they contribute. And so I really wanted to turn the tables, so to speak, and to really show what could society look like if women were in control and men were the ones that were necessarily kind of struggling for some sense of individuality and meaning and representation in society.

SPEAKER_05 10:26

And some things work a whole lot better. Even though it's a post-apocalyptic dystopian kind of situation, yeah. Some of the gems in the book were were displaying that superiority, if you will, of greater empathy, of more of a team spirit, right? Where where men tend to be so individualistic and so testosterone-laced. But but at the same time, you're pointing out the excesses of control overall. So it doesn't matter who's in charge. When you're in charge, absolute power corrupts absolutely. They're victims. And what I love the most is that these victims are often internal too. So Donnie's wondering what's going on. There's a mystery surrounding Linda, the mom. And when you wrap Robbie into it and that old kind of love, lust, interest, and then she goes into the world of the oppressed male, then there's an interesting mirror. It's like a house of mirrors.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:38

Where, from your vantage point, in this still misogynist patriarchal society that we live in, frankly, uh, you've you've been treated that way that is not quite satisfying. And there's an in there's an inversion here where obviously the men are breeders and are second, third class citizens, if that, and are tools, basically. And then there's Donnie's experience of that oppression. And at the same time, Robbie's feeling that he's got an opportunity, and then meanwhile, Linda's kind of scheming.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Well, the wonderful thing I think about the book is that the all each of these characters, their um their role and their meaning as and as they see themselves and as others see them, changes. And so you really start to kind of follow along with their story and see, you know, how Dominion externally has been impacting them, but then also internally as they're evolving, where are they really clashing? Right. So I really wanted this book to be something that where folks could come together and really talk about themes around power and control. And I think one of the things that is also very prevalent in the book is this idea of control is not always an immediate grab. Sometimes control is just you're losing a little bit at a time, a little bit at a time until you wake up and it's gone, right? And so the question really becomes it's it's always kind of less about male versus female, and it's more around who are the people in control and who are the ones who aren't in control, and what are the folks who are in control willing to do to retain it? And who are and what are the people who are the people who don't have control, what are they willing to do to gain it? So there's a lot of that going on throughout the book that I I really enjoyed.

SPEAKER_05 13:44

And as a reader, that makes for good writing. Because it's it's it's character driven, it's not just obsessing over world building, which is which is one of the tropes and problems with science fiction and fantasy, where the writer spends so much time just building this elaborate world, and the characters are just cutouts, static cutouts, meant to populate it. And you take a very character-driven approach, and it's theme-based as you describe. And one of those themes is slowly boiling that frog, where it's one the pot gets hotter one degree at a time for each of the characters in their own way, yeah, until it finally reaches a critical, critical point. And there's a unity about power that transcends gender and race. It's like who's holding the cards. We see that in our society too, where political parties at the very, very top become indistinguishable from each other. And I know everyone's talking Epstein files now, but but that's the one that's the one big blow-up where it's it's a nonpartisan, bipartisan embarrassment across the board. And it's shameful. You've got Democrats, you've got Republicans all unified in that rarefied space of big money and big power. So it's not even about male-female, not about left or right. It's just about having that power and how you abuse it.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Absolutely, absolutely. And that and I think that's what makes the story such a relatable one, right? Um, because I think everybody sees different aspects of this story. It's almost like a kaleidoscope of sorts where you can see different truths depending on your own experience and how you see the world. And I I love that about it. And to your earlier point, too, about the world building, um, yeah, absolutely. I wanted the the reader to imagine, see it for themselves as they were reading it. What does this world look like? Because it is important to show that, but the relationships, the humanity is the cornerstone of this story, and it will continue to be for the rest of the uh the trilogy.

SPEAKER_05 16:09

All right, that's that's that that's a hint. Tell us a little bit how how you've laid that out. Just uh spoil super spoiler alert, but uh but for folks who love Dominion Ascension, it might be Dominion.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

I have been sharing the the title of the second book, so and then you'll have to use your imagination. So the title of book two is Dominion Anarchy.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

All right, all right, take that where you will. But that's a classic three-act setup, which is you introduce the characters and the dynamic tension, you end with a bit of a cliffhanger, you're wondering what's next and and where it's going. And then the shit hits the fan in act two, right? Where where people are trying to get what they can get based on you know the the setup, and then resolution in the in the third act. So that that that's a great, great title, too. And it fits that three-arc kind of dynamic in a good way. And once again, I'm thinking Netflix mini-series because you know when when it all breaks loose, it's it's it you got some some action and some conflict, right? And some playing it out, which is the Breeders have had enough.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

And keep in mind too, I mean, the Breeders is one of six different uh, you know, groups, if you will, that men are being um kind of assigned to. So there's a lot of uh, you know, a lot of challenges, I think, with just overall having, you know, society having that level of control over anybody, you know, particularly men. So it's it's really interesting from that standpoint as well, I think. A lot of fun.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

And part of it, I mean, I'm obviously a dude, and and and reading it, um, it did build up empathy, and and I'm assuming that this was part of your goal. Like if you're a dude reading this book on dudes getting their ass kicked, then then then it's kind of like, hey buddy, now now you kind of see how it is, right? Because in order to convey allegory and to tell a tale, you often dial things up to their extreme to really illustrate points and hit home. So even if they're minor, relatively minor differences, I mean women still are paid less than men. And there's still a lot of misogyny. And now we've got a whiplash effect that's going on with the Jordan Petersons of the world where men are the ones who are disenfranchised, right? We're tired of holding that door and buying dinner, and men are the ones who are already being being you know disserved in that kind of way. So there's there's already this gender war going on. But taking it to an extreme, in a sense, reveals what women have been dealing with through that looking glass.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Absolutely. And I mean, you know, definitely not to uh disregard the sympathizers. I mean, there are women who feel that men are not treated fairly. And, you know, there's roles that they are playing in it as well, and that's no different than what you would see even today. You know, there are people who really see it for what it is. And that's not uh that's not the way, you know, that's not a peaceful coexistence at all. And so um I I you know, I think it's um it just says a lot, I think, about, you know, how does humanity, how does humanity move forward? And you know, and it's one thing to have the situation with men and women and and kind of the inevitability of society based on this war, but you've also got the evolution of technology and how technology really does, you know, kind of stone gate, right? Or even kind of close everything in. And it's used to define uh how the society moves forward. So I think that's another really, really interesting component of this that I wanted to make sure was, you know, very much in the center of the story.

SPEAKER_05 20:46

With technology comes transparency and surveillance and knowledge and data. So there's nowhere left to hide.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Right.

SPEAKER_05 20:57

And and I think that that theme is there, and then the mechanisms of using technology to maintain the status quo, this very rigid hierarchy that's bifurcated along gender lines. And to your point, there's all these hierarchical subdivisions, too. Everyone's got to behave, right? Even the women need to behave in their own way, which is uh which is a point you were making too, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

If you think about it, I mean, you know, there is the question of you know, at what point does technology catch up with humanity? At what point does it evolve to the point where humanity and technology are one and the same? What does that look like? What does that existence potentially look like? The need to coexist is absolutely there. Um, but it's a question of who really does determine that coexistence and and and how it evolves. And so I think that's such an interesting aspect of it as we look at it today, even.

SPEAKER_05 21:58

Yeah, especially in the throes of the AI revolution because that that really embodies that kind of convergence where we've got a new species and it's not male or female but it's machine learning and it's and it's not even close to being sentient but it sure does act like us and talk like us and do things that we can do and that calls a whole a host of other factors into question including those of control and dominion who's calling the shots and what does it mean to be human what does that really start to look like right uh so I yeah these are just things that I think are so incredibly important as as as things to explore in the storyline. Yeah and the timing of your your book is interesting politically we've been oscillating between extremes and when when we're looking at considering issues of race and gender and institutionalizing our reaction to them and maybe a salve for them we've we've again gone from one extreme to another so now the current administration is very anti DEI there's a feeling that gender and race could and should be irrelevant now this is a science fiction podcast and we're not here to politicize but I bring these up within the context of the launch of your book which is really focused on inverting the power structure based on gender so are you getting any pushback any misunderstanding any any kind of resistance given the the shift in political climate and conversely are you getting advocates who'll who would say that this is exactly the kind of stuff we should be talking about because the current regime is in a sense forcing us to forget yeah I would definitely say the response has been more of the latter people saying this is very timely.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

We need to be having these conversations not just from women but from men as well I think one of the things that makes it a safe topic for men in particular is that you know it's not like you're going to the ballot box and voting on this. This is all hypothetical. It's a fiction novel so there's a certain sense of you know relaxation you can have about expressing your feelings and not you know not taking it uh that way and so that's one part of it.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

I think on the other hand uh you know folks who may have said hey wait a minute this is a bit much I think it's actually been interesting to see some of that from women I thought that was really interesting and women in particular are ones who tend to be a little bit more traditional you know and and see this almost kind of as an affront you know to maybe a traditional lifestyle that they've had for quite some time so that's been an interesting conversation I must say to to you know to have that uh mostly with women very much so that's interesting yeah and and you you had many women enthusiastically voting for the current administration maybe despite or in spite of or to spite some of the things that have been said and done and there is that feeling of keeping status quo and traditional roles and you're very disruptive that way you're kind of like hey you're turning everything upside down yeah well I mean why wouldn't you I mean you know that's that's when you really start to get some something interesting going right hundred percent and that that's the role of science fiction and fantasy and that's a recurring theme that I've heard from authors and artists and publishers and distributors and everyone in this genre is the power of science fiction and fantasy is to step back going all the way to Star Trek and all our favorite TV shows and books where where we're able to create these worlds that are projections of what's going on right now. And because they're fanciful and they're long long time ago in a galaxy far away we don't we don't necessarily connect it and to your point we're not voting on it it's not demanding a decision on your part and a lot of people just like to sit back and take in a good story and be entertained by it without philosophizing too much. But to your great points if the philosophy is there and the themes are there and the characters are strong that just makes it a better story. Absolutely and to your earlier point I mean I would kill for a hollow deck would love a hollow deck wouldn't that be badass that would be so badass I'm just waiting and I'm I'm really nearsighted and I would love a LeVar Burton little uh little headset I'd be I'd be tripping on that. I know right or just be me and I'll be me in seconds from one place to another I mean come on you know let's do it let's go there and and and on the flip side you you've got a great presence on TikTok like I mentioned so you're you're really sensitive and you're very adept at the social influencer kind of game you know how content is being shared and consumed these days which is peer-to-peer yeah and uh how are you how are you approaching the marketing and reviewing and busting through that wall of getting and sustaining attention in this attention age attention is like gold attention is the new standard tension is priceless how how you getting to that attention and uh how are you getting that book out there so that that Netflix uh producer takes note yeah yeah well I think you know the way I started uh on my socials was really by focusing on the viewers I didn't want it to be about me I wanted it to be about them which is why I really did start with just talking to people about what they were reading and why they were reading it right and then from there really starting to understand what was really behind you know some of the passions people had about different types of stories.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

And so that was really you know kind of the fundamentals of how I built my social. And then I think you know when it comes to you know driving the book I really started to turn the corner from being very much about talking about everybody else and what they love and what they enjoy. And I started to turn this turn the chapters maybe the earlier part of last year where I really started to lean in on the themes of Dominion because I knew there was an audience out there that wanted to talk about some of these topics. And so that's really how I have continued to explore and grow you know you know readers, viewers folks who are interested I also have a um an author site it's um at DAMurrayofficial dot com where I have I have a com I have the entire story there from kind of like who I am and and why I do what I do to the main characters. There's a great AI uh journey you can take with some of the main characters there's a book club kit there is and all of the different engagements that I've had where I've talked with folks about the story uh it's all there so it's it's kind of building that credibility and and and and people really understanding what I'm about as a writer and where that story really comes from which I think is so so critical.

SPEAKER_05 30:38

That's amazing and effective and we're mirror reflections of each other I was born in Chicago you're living in Chicago you were born in California I'm living in California and I started back asswards so I wrote my debut science fiction novel which was the novel I always wanted to read I wrote it and I was so proud it's great. But then I woke up the next morning and I realized I don't know anybody in in in really the science fiction community like well I don't network I didn't establish relationships and my social presence has been really ranting on TikTok and doing other fun stuff not even necessarily book related so I launched this podcast not with the with the simply opportunistic notion that I need to market my book but to better understand what readers like and what other writers are going through and talking to awesome folks like you and helping you expand your reach and at the same time for me to connect with a broader audience to understand. So so again it's like we're mirror reflections of each other where you are out there doing your socials talking to people about their ideas and their books and they're like hey I got a good idea so so you market condition well I'm uh I'm kind of back asswards in this but I think it's ostensibly to the same goal which is which is fostering community encouraging people listening to what people like and are into and creating content that resonates absolutely absolutely and I think you know it's so interesting to you know to see people you know when people are talking about a story doesn't matter which one a story to see how how much it touches them.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

And there's you know I've I've asked people you know questions around books that have changed their lives because there are books that change their lives you know and you know what does that mean to them? How do they express it? So I just think that storytelling is such an incredibly powerful expression of humanity that every everybody can relate to it in some way shape or form.

SPEAKER_05 33:05

So I I love that aspect of it as well yeah storytelling especially if you're good at it that that helps to which how did you get your chops because uh writing a book is hard is is I always say that's on everybody's bucket list like take this talk to a random person in the Starbucks yeah hey come here a second what what's on your bucket list let me guess you want to write a book you want to write a book right everybody wants to write a book but you did it and you did a great job how how did you how did you how did you get there?

SPEAKER_01 33:42

It's hard it's not easy yeah I mean I've been writing most of my life you know I when I started probably in middle school you know you know writing stories writing poetry I mean I've all you know I was you know never in a professional sense but always something I really enjoyed doing and I think that was also one of the reasons why you know I went into marketing as a profession you know because I love the creativity aspects of what I can do. Again it's a it's a form of storytelling and and engagement and things of that nature. And I gosh I probably started writing Dominion oh gosh at least seven or eight years ago. And I think at that point it was really about wanting it started from the vantage point of me just thinking about all these experiences I have had over you know just over a 30 year period or so and saying there's lessons I have learned that I want to share. Now I'm not you know I'm not a famous person so doing a biography, well that's not going to be of huge interest to anybody but I thought if I could tell a story I could tell a fiction story that you know really does include all of these amazing learnings but still can entertain and inspire and engage which is ultimately what I wanted to do. And so that was really where Dominion came from and I you know I wasn't an English major in college I was an econ major I was business you know and so a lot of my writing was from you know like taking classes going to seminars like you know and working and I you know I've worked with you know very you know writing coaches and I like for years I have been preparing for this you know and at the same time working a full-time job and trying to do all these things but I knew I had a story to tell and like I tell everybody everybody has a story to tell and so this has happened to be a story that was very much about who I am what how I see the world but at the same time I wanted to make it fun and I wanted to make it thrilling and I wanted to put all that good stuff in there so that people just go back and go, wow, I need another dose of that I think you you nailed it the the the other takeaway is not everyone's a writer though everyone has a story but not everyone's a writer and for some it's swimming upstream and for others to your point you've been doing it ever since you look back you've been you've been writing and your your professional career is writing is storytelling is creative ideation so you're you're built for this and this is one pattern I've seen in just about every writer I've talked to I've got another podcast Inc vs Algorithm where I have poets and people not just in science fiction and fantasy but it's ubiquitous everyone who's written a book and is into this has that deep feeling that they're in it to win it almost from their earliest memories.

SPEAKER_05 37:11

They're writing little stories and they're telling stories and they also see that book it's kind of on the horizon for a while you always know you want to get to it and when life the universe and everything comes together in whatever way it does then it's activated and then there's nothing to stop us it's it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Absolutely and it's so funny you know because you know again when I write I see it like it as clear as day I see it and it's so funny I have this experience I remember there's a scene in the book that I I was writing um it's uh the characters characters who are scaling the side of a mountain and I'm writing this and I'm so into it. I mean I'm like it's like three o'clock in the morning and late and I'm just like oh my God you know and I'm doing all you know typing along I'm like oh my god what is gonna happen next I'm like you're writing it like yeah I guess she's type a little faster because nobody else is gonna tell you this right and that's when I know I'm really into the zone and I just can't wait to know what's gonna happen next.

SPEAKER_05 38:34

So it's dictated by your characters in the world you created right it's like you put you put the characters you set them loose you've created a world you've created characters with goals with obstacles and then you just kind of set them loose and to me as a writer as well I know I'm onto something when I'm just I'm a tool just like some of your male characters in the book I love that that's great. I'm just I'm just being I'm Robbie I'm just like you see you gotta that's that's that's my role here but I'm channeling it and then I know I'm onto something because it's emergent it's organic it's true drama it's not like it's coming out well what should happen next it's like this happens and then that happens that's not good writing and I love love love and it shows in your work that your own personal struggles and your personal point of view and lived experiences are channeled through these characters and their needs and their challenges and their experiences. So almost allegorically you're living it out on the page and that also makes for a great story because it emotionally resonates for you and if it emotionally resonates for you it's going to emotionally resonate for your readers.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Yeah no I agree I mean that was one of the things you know I mean there's so many you know obviously tools and and and strategies when you're writing but one of the more main things you have to do when you're writing is you have to decide what's the point of view that I'm gonna write from what is that going to be and I decided for this book for Dominion Ascension I wanted to write first person point of view from the standpoint of Danny because I wanted the readers to see the world through her eyes and and how all of this has come together and how she's processing a lot of this. And you'll see in in future books, you know, that point of view will be different. But um the point is that even things like that, what's the point of view or you know what is it that you know the character wants that they can't have you know or what are the relationships that are going to be most critical to moving the story along so there's so many it's really funny you have the creative side of everything but then you also have to be thinking about at some point thinking about where are you building tension? How is the pacing going? Where are you dropping those bombs so to speak you know what you know all of those things that make for an exciting reading experience. So I say you have to be writing from the standpoint of understanding it from a writer perspective but you also got to understand it from a reader perspective.

SPEAKER_05 41:34

And those are not the exact same thing no in one way or another there's a gap and oh sure a little bit of friction is good because if you give people exactly what they want there's no surprise right right but if you're too aggressive with your point of view and your writing is too novel and out there then people are WTF and they need to they need to be on board it's um like the designer Louie who did the Avante car and turned SO into an expression called Maya which is most advanced yet acceptable it's like I liken it to not burning the bacon you know I you know good bacon is crispy and perfect but if you leave it on the pot for like 20 seconds more it's ruined. And to your point I think writing is like that you got to keep it crispy and fresh and like surprising but it's also got to be inevitable because it's a if it's a surprise that comes out of nowhere or the reader is confused then they shrug and you've lost them. And I'm arguably guilty guilty of that because I wrote my book for myself. Did you did you beta test yours? Absolutely alpha tested it beta tested it um you know oh my god and yeah once again we're mirror images of each other because I wrote the book to my personal satisfaction and then I just published it so that that's terrific so you went through various iterations of editing and reading to make sure that your target audience in general dug it that I had to do all of that before I could even start like shopping it for publishers.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

I mean you don't just write it and send it to you know you got you got to make sure you know you really have vetted it and cleaned it up and made it a story that they can really they can see where you're going with it. Right. And so that that was important to me. I didn't I didn't want this to just be like oh here's a a fluffy story. I wanted it to mean something. I wanted to Read it and go, hmm, I need to think about that.

SPEAKER_05 44:03

It's not a personal vanity project where you're just going for it with no no concerns for your reader. So you're you were very much focused on that. So we we've got a lot of listeners and viewers who are indie authors themselves, either aspiring or uh they're at various stages in in the game. So I've I've had authors who are like nebula finalists, they've been doing this for 20, 25 years, I've had as guests.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:34

And the takeaway number one is it never gets any easier in terms of marketing and and getting attention.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:42

But they're but they're very similar to you in a sense of being very systematic and getting feedback and getting professional assistance and doing it in a way that that really makes sense. So for for aspiring authors, uh, can you share a few a few best practices of what you went through and how you got to where you're at and where you hope to get to in terms of this being a debut novel? And you know, we talked about Netflix, but but uh but what do you see as the as the next phase for DA?

SPEAKER_01 45:19

I think when I think back on my process, one of the things I would strongly recommend any writer to do, I think it's absolutely critical, it's not enough to just understand the creative side of writing. You need to understand the business side of writing. Why are you getting into this in the first place? And you know, there's nothing wrong with, hey, I just love writing, and this is just, you know, it could be a hobby, what have you. But if you want to be in the business of writing, you need to understand what that business looks like. So I did things like I went to writing symposiums, you know, like there was a one some one collect Chicago Writes, you know, and I went to a full-day seminar and I wanted to understand what are the different publishing um models that are out there. So, you know, traditional publishing, self-publishing, hybrid, you know, co-partner, like there's so many different models out there. I wanted to understand how I would show up in front of an agent. So I went through pitching, you know, to see how that would look like. I took classes to really understand um, you know, like the vantage point of, you know, what does it mean to have mashup genres, like romance novels, thrillers, sci-fi, you know, I wanted to understand how that was even evolving. And then of course, meeting other writers. I think that's a wonderful way to really understand, engage. Because it's it's not like you write the book, you publish it, and you're done. Oh dear God, no.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

If anything, it just gets even more intense after you publish.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

At the time when you're writing it, it doesn't seem that way, but yeah. And then, you know, so I that was like something I really did educate myself intensely on the industry. And then I think the other thing was um the the beta testing, the alpha testing, the beta testing. Getting perspectives, I think, are really important because you will learn things about your writing that you didn't necessarily see, you know? Um, and little things like did you know you use this particular, you know, um adjective often? Or do you really like just things that you're like?

SPEAKER_05 47:49

You're going heavy heavy JK Rowling with that. You're going adjective nutty.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Yeah, or just like things that seem perfectly normal, nothing weird. So that's the other thing. The other thing is read a lot. It really is true. Reading a lot is great because you get to see how other writers portray the world or their stories. And I think it's a great way to learn and evolve your own style to say, wow, this is really an incredible way that this author treated this scene. That's really interesting, you know, or whatever. And so I think it's like anything else, they're case studies, treat them as case studies and learn from them as you will. But I think reading is a great way to expand your repertoire. And then I think also continuing to take classes in very specific topics. There's so many interesting, you know, writing classes that are out there that are incredibly helpful. You know, I mean, that seems like the most simple thing, but honestly, like some people are just like, I don't know where to put that comma. So, you know, grammar, you know, or just like, you know, thrillers, science fiction, like all these different genre writings. And I think just understanding this industry that you're about to step into is so important. And then also to marketing, Amazon.com, versus, you know, looking at social media like TikTok and Facebook and Insta and all of these, you know, advertising on all these different platforms. What does it mean? How does it work? All that good stuff. So, I mean, it is literally uh something you have to over time educate yourself on because you're gonna have to do a very important thing as a writer that um sometimes people don't put enough intention and thought behind, which is what type of publishing model do you want to get behind? Do you want to go after traditional hybrid self, right? Do you want to go with this more project management style where you go with a a company that can go through the entire process with you, but you're still kind of managing it's kind of it's called self-directed, if you will. Like those are different approaches to get to the same place. And they all have their pluses and minuses. And what I always say is you just have to understand where you are today, what you know you can put into the process, and what you know you can't put into the process, and what you want to achieve at the end of the day. And if you put that together, then that's gonna help you figure out where you know which model am I really gonna get aligned with, and then you go for it.

SPEAKER_05 50:49

I think that was absolutely fantastic. I I uh do clips of the YouTube videos, so we're gonna have clips of you. And in parallel to getting this Netflix mini-series, I think you could coach, you could coach indie authors on uh on the industry. I think those best practices are are bang on point. And I'm impressed by how thorough you are. You really looked at it from the vantage point of having a goal. I want to write a popular book that's smart, moves people, tells a great story, and has potential. And uh you didn't stubbornly cling to some idealized vision of the forgotten genius or toiling in your basement, and you will be discovered. Discovery doesn't happen by accident. And it's pure wishful thinking to assume that people will pick you out from this tsunami of content, declare you a genius, and give you that mini-series. You need to play ball here if you want to win the game.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

And I took it as a long road, it's a long road for me because I have a full-time job. Yeah, so I have to balance writing, right, marketing, and a full-time job, you know. So I was not going into this, like, oh, I just need this to be like hit the ball out of the park. I mean, no, I it's a long game for me. And I what I would love to do is in I don't know, 10 years or whatever, I'd love to just be able to become a full-time writer. I'd love to be able to support my passion full-time. Can't do that today, but hopefully over time, as I continue to write and build, you know, build the stories, I will eventually get there. And that that's that's my goal.

SPEAKER_05 52:47

Absolutely. And there's another myth that if you see a book that looks popular and that has won a bunch of awards, there's a tacit assumption that this person has made it. And I've had guests, again, who are very accomplished, they are very well known in science fiction and fantasy. Yes. And they have day jobs, or they're lucky enough to be married and their spouse supplements their their writing, or some other form of income or way of paying the rent. But there are very few writers who have the privilege and have worked hard enough to declare themselves full-time writers. And and when you and when you look at the data, the marketing data, there's a great survey that was done recently. That was another podcast I did. And for those writers making ten thousand dollars a month or more, on average, they have 60 books published. Six zero. They have an entire library, and they pump half of that money back into paid advertising. You got to keep the engine going. And these are these are mostly indie authors who are who are gunning it and doing it their way. So, you know, they may make a career of their books, but it is more than a full-time job.

SPEAKER_04 54:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:14

And there's an understanding to your point of the market, of the ad mechanism, of the platforms, and in addition to that, they are incredibly prolific.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Yeah, no, that's exciting.

SPEAKER_05 54:28

Yeah, yeah. So the the sky's the limit, it depends on you, which is how much do you want to commit and what is important to you as a writer, because there is zero shame in writing the book of your dreams and publishing it. You get you get an ISBN number in about two minutes on the on the Balker site, and then you can pump your PDF into KDP with that ISBN, and you got a book on your desk in four days. And there's no shame in doing that. But if you want that mini-series and if you want to write a book that a lot of people are gonna be able to read and enjoy, it's not gonna be a magical wave of the Harry Potter wand.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

Yeah, no, I get it. And and I'll tell you also, Moogie, I mean, the most important thing that I want to do with my marketing, the marketing side of my book, and I say this all the time, is it's find my people. There are people who will love my story and will love for me to do it.

SPEAKER_05 55:32

Yeah, like I'm like, find my mine is weird as hell, but I know, I know that I've got people who would love it.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Thank you. I just want to find my people, and that's not an easy feat. I mean, it takes time and you gotta invest, you know, in finding your people, and that's the most important thing to me, uh, more than anything else, is let me find my people and then let me just continue to, you know, generate more interesting and engaging content. And you know, I'm I'd be happy with that. And like I said, eventually, if I can support myself, you know, uh as a full-time author at some point in my career, that would be awesome.

SPEAKER_05 56:12

I mean, you know, it would be well deserved, and and and it would you would be really good at it. And some of this will beg yeah, some of this begs begs the question of the AI. AI stuff. I I kind of think that a silver lining to this AI stuff is that they'll help us find our people. Like the A the AI knows what people like to read, and they they have already eaten up your content and they chopped it up and already sharing it. So put connect the dots, yeah, AI people. AI people. I would I would pay good money just to find my people that way, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:52

I mean, that's basically what marketing is.

SPEAKER_05 56:54

Yes, yeah. I think we're on the brink of that. So so before we all lose our jobs and it takes over the world, maybe it'll help us find our audiences and our audiences find us.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Exactly. And that's I I love that. I love that aspect of it. And um, you know, this is I'll tell you another thing that I love about fiction writing. Um, and and maybe this is the case too with nonfiction, but I haven't written it, so I can't say, but I have found this process and the outcome to be incredibly liberating and empowering. And I I don't know if it's because of the topics that I wrote about or I don't know what it was, but there was something that really just unleashed inside of me when I re wrote this book. And I feel incredibly um just capable and strong and you know, just like I I could just take it on. And I, you know, I just I didn't not I didn't feel that way to the extent that I do now, prior to this book. So I I have tremendous gratitude for for bringing this thing into the world because I I've seen how it's changed in my life and how it's impacted others as well.

SPEAKER_05 58:20

I think that puts us full circle to how we started this conversation. Remember, I I was hinting at that catharsis that the theme of the book itself must have brought out in you as a woman who's dealt with with certain types of discrimination and being treated like a woman in a patriarchal society. And this is your not so much your revenge, but your release, right? There must be some satisfaction in that, and how the characters play out, which is going beyond gender, understanding what control can do to people, absolutely, and and it liberates everybody in the end, male, female, regardless of age and race. I mean, that's a true and just society that we all hope for, right? And and by creating one that isn't and isn't in this very interesting looking glass handsmade tale kind of upside down way is very original, very exciting, and surprising, and satisfying, I think, in all the ways that you bring up.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

Oh, thank you. Thank you. And I mean, Luki, I'm sure you can understand this is anybody who's written a book and emerging writers. Um, reviews are incredibly important. So if you've read the book, you love the book, please, please, please go, you know, Amazon.com, bookshop.org, bars and noble.com, Walmart, wherever you got the book, please, please, please provide reviews, good reads, because that's the that's one of the most effective ways that you can get your, you know, I can get the story out.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:09

Speaking of AI and the algorithm, that's that's what's gonna rank you. You know, people like it, so we're gonna show it to other people so they buy in and we make money off you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

But again, it's part of finding my people.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:24

A hundred percent. So buy Dominion Ascension by D.A. Murray. Links below, and most importantly, leave a review. Five stars, only five stars.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

Absolutely. And if you are part of a book club, because I I do book club appearances about two a month or so, is what I average. And there is a book club kit on the author site, damurrayofficial.com, that you can easily download. And besides this typical stuff that's in there, like discussion discussion questions, there's a character profile piece. There is the actual glossary of terms, which by the way, we didn't talk too much about, but I do kind of go out there a little bit with creating different uh different words.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

So you need a glossary.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:16

A little bit like clockwork orange. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Exactly. Um and there's also a number of culinary dishes and cocktails beverages that are mentioned in the book, and all of that is also in the um in the book love kit. So you can have a whole experience plus the game. So tons of fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:40

That is so creative, and it's really the the marketer in you is shining.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

Oh, yeah, that's the marketer part of me, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:47

Which is full 360 customer support. That's awesome. So I want to be sensitive to your time and I want to thank you for joining us on the floor of the science fiction and fantasy factory. It's been awesome having you on and inspirational, which is you can you can do that thing. If you got it inside, write that damn book. But just keep in mind that that's the beginning of the journey, not the end.

unknown 1:02:20

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:21

And if you really want to get out there, then get out there and learn everything you can about the whole ecosystem of publishing. Know your options, dedicate yourself, and most importantly, talk to your fellow writers and build your tribe. Find your people and build your tribe, is what I'm taking away from this conversation. Ladies and gentlemen, DA Murray. Thank you so much. And I'd love to have you back for the I would love to come back.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

I love this conversation.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:55

Super fun. So, like, comment, share, everybody, and subscribe for the call to action. And we'll see you, we'll see you again. Thank you.