B.K. Gibson Debuts with Freedom's Vow

Ben and Karen Gibson have been quietly building an entire fantasy universe for years — not one book, not two, but an entire pipeline of stories forged through late-night collaboration, technical day jobs, parenting chaos, RPG design, and a shared obsession with speculative fiction. In the 53rd episode of The Science Fiction & Fantasy Factory, Mookie chats with the married writing duo behind Freedom’s Vow, the debut novel helping to launch Selene Press into fantasy territory.

Mookie encourages Ben and Karen to unpack the heartfelt and surprisingly functional mechanics of co-authoring as a married couple: outlining together, poking holes in each other’s logic, splitting scenes, revising each other’s prose, and learning how trust matters more than ego when building stories collaboratively. Along the way they talk about publishing, LibertyCon, developmental editing with Cannon’s John Holmes, the realities of indie and small press publishing, and why they intentionally waited years before activating their fiction.

At the center of the discussion is Freedom’s Vow, an epic fantasy steeped in Hellenistic and Greek-inspired mythology. The novel follows Arete, a magically gifted Shepherd, and Philon, a soldier whose city was shattered by the terrifying powers wielded by her kind. Avoiding bloated lore dumps and endless spell mechanics, the Gibsons focus on character, emotional tension, and the dangerous relationship forming between two people trapped between war, slavery, fear, and destiny. Mookie digs into why the book feels more human and grounded than much of modern fantasy — and the couple reveal how readers are already demanding more time with the characters after only book one.

The episode also spirals into a wildly entertaining tour through the Gibsons’ unpublished backlog: military sci-fi involving battered reservists fleeing annihilation aboard a logistics ship; underground middle-grade adventures inspired by Jules Verne; and a gloriously insane post-apocalyptic novel where America counter-invades Hell itself after demons emerge from portals at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Yes, that conversation eventually includes nuclear weapons, Tennessee militias, and “sniping the Devil in the face.”

Other topics include:

• Why most writers never finish a novel — and why the Gibsons kept writing anyway
• The danger of vanity presses and publishing scams
• Social media, AI slop, and why genuine human connection still matters
• The overlap between tabletop RPG audiences and fantasy readers
• Why unfinished fantasy series frustrate readers
• The difference between writing for money versus writing because you have stories clawing to get out
• How technical careers in chemistry and physics unexpectedly fuel their speculative fiction
• Why “Southern geekery” might be its own literary expertise

If you love fantasy rooted in myth, collaborative creativity, indie publishing war stories, or hearing two deeply nerdy and genuinely likable people talk shop with Mookie at full velocity, given them a listen. And if Freedom’s Vow is only the beginning, Ben and Karen Gibson may have enough stories waiting in the wings to keep readers and publishers busy for years.

The Guests

B.K. Gibson is the pen name for Ben and Karen Gibson, a married co-writing couple, who've turned their lifelong love of stories into worlds of imagination they delight to share with others. They live in the beautiful city of Huntsville, Alabama, working in science and engineering while raising three rambunctious and curious children. We hope you'll love joining us in the stories we tell. 

Their Books

Their Free Novella

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Science Fiction and Fantasy Factory. I'm your host, Lucy Spitz, and I'm thrilled to have the writing team, the dynamic duo of Ben and Karen Gibson in the factory today. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_02 0:19

I am well, and you guys are probably even better now that you guys have launched your debut novel, The Celine Press, Freedom's Vow. And I checked it out, and it's super fun. And I'd love to talk to you about it and get people excited about it. It's uh it's a recent release.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, it came out May 19th. So whenever this is, it'll be pretty close still.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Great. And next to Sam Robb's sense of murder, it's new to the press. It's Canon Press branching off into fantasy, if I got that right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

And you guys are leading the charge. How did it happen? You guys have done um a bunch of short stories for Recontour Press. And now you have dipped your toes in a big way into the full-length novel. And I believe this is the first in a series in the Shepherd's series. Book one. More goods, more goodies coming. So tell us about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

How how did this how did Well if you want to talk about me meeting John? Yeah, go ahead. Um I actually met John last year at LibertyCon, uh, which is a con over in Chattanooga. Um we actually were talking, uh, he was interested, he is um about to release an RPG based on his Fay Wars series, um, which I think he mentioned when he was interviewing with you. Um I have for the last uh it's almost 10 years now, I've been publishing RPG Avengers. Um so I've I've been doing that for a long time. And so we just John and I started talking for a while, and he was asking if I, you know, asking for advice and asking just, I mean, I was happy to talk, just talk about, you know, the stuff he needs to know for the RPG side. Uh, but John being John, he's always he always loves to, you know, hey, if you got a book, you know, you we can publish it. Um well Karen and I have written quite a few. Um, but we were not, we always kind of figured if we have to go the independent route, we would want to have a big backlog. So um Freedom's Now represents, was that book number nine? Was it the ninth?

SPEAKER_01 2:34

I think it was eight or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Are these books that you guys have just written? Um, are so you're you're keeping it close and you were waiting for this moment, or are they published? Did you indie publish them?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

No, they're they were written and just sort of waiting, and we also wanted to be smart about how we release it. We want to to have series done before we do that, and um wanted to have release the right kind of the right kind of novel for the right kind of uh time.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

So yeah, we have one series that's more of a genre blend. It's not quite sci-fi fantasy blend, but it's a little bit more fantastical. And so we were like, we really enjoy that series, but it probably would not be a good intro into uh the fantasy market.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

And then we've written standalones, which are um some of them are more uh blended. So the thought is um to kind of lead with the foot forward would be the shepherd trilogy, um, which is all written as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Wow. So you guys have been toiling in the shadows, so to speak. And then this seemed like the perfect opportunity to bring it to light. John had a need for a fantasy novel for Celine. You guys met at LibertyCon, we're hanging out, and you're like, oh yeah, sure. You reach into your pocket and hear not only is one novel, but but a whole trilogy, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Well, you would have laughed you've since you've met John. He at the uh end of every um press meeting, he you know, if the what whichever author has released one, he his joke is all right, so when when do you have your next uh you know I can't do his New York accent, but when do you have your next uh when do you have next book for me?

SPEAKER_02 4:13

If you haven't met John, you need to picture a big cigar, yeah. Yeah, and and and explosions in the background, kind of like Tropic Thunder.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Exactly. Well, I mean, he yeah. So he was he it's like, say, when do you have the next book for you? I was like, Oh, are you ready for it now? He goes, What? I said, Yeah, uh, we'll send it along.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

We've got it.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

I was like, I'm still working on the revisions for book three, but yeah, book two is ready to go. So here you go. So he's like, Yeah, sure, okay. I I think that surprised him that the joke was there.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

You guys are co-authors, so you're a married couple. How long have you guys been together?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Almost 16 years.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yeah, it'll be 16 years this year. So okay, congratulations. How long have you been writing together?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Um, almost the full time, actually. It it started out um with I was writing a novel when we were first married, and I kind of picked it up and put it down. I wasn't super dedicated to it because we had a couple kids early. But Ben was always interested in reading what I wrote and had great commentary. And um, the first novel is not to be seen, it's not a good novel. We're just gonna let that one be. But he was always very encouraging.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

We'll keep it under wraps.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, exactly. Um, he was always very encouraging, and so it started out like as a developmental editor, and then through time it kind of shifted into us writing together. And so now we actually have a split that's pretty even um as far as who does what writing.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

So, do you assign chapters like you you you do this chapter, you do that one, or do you pass the manuscript back and forth to each other, and you guys each do your thing? How does it work logistically? Because uh that kind of arrangement, I'm sure people are wondering how do you how do you pull it off?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yeah, it's it's a little bit of both. So it kind of depends on what we're writing. We um had a sci-fi story in one of the Brack Press anthologies that we released, and that one was very much like in and out of the scene. Yes, Pogue 2. So um so with the sci-fi story, it was very much like scene by scene, and even like I would put brackets in the places where I was writing where I wasn't sure if the science was gonna work out or if the action was gonna work out, and so the sci-fi is a lot is very blended. Now, with the fantasy, a lot of times we will write scene like larger scenes by scenes, so like chapter sections. And sometimes we do it like at the same time. Sometimes I finish the draft and then he goes back and adds everything up. So it's it it varies.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

And we always have the outline. So the biggest part is we'll always have an outline together. We always start with an outline, um, a pretty detailed outline, and we work at that together. We work, you know, just that's a conversation back and forth over usually several evenings where we'll just talk about um where this goes. We'll have a you know the first story in mind, but we kind of work out where everything goes. Um, I'll start having I usually have the initial outline and then Karen pokes it full of holes. She'll just ask a question, now that you know, this doesn't work, this doesn't work, this doesn't work. So she'll uh she'll and that's great because it means I have to answer all the questions she has. She pokes, she pokes in it and improves all of it. So that we're working from that outline, it helps for coordination.

unknown 7:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Sounds like you complement each other really well. You've got different skill sets, maybe, that you bring to it. Is there a concept person and a get it done person, or are you both throwing down in terms of the creativity and the characters? How do you how do you divide and conquer?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

How would you say that? We we work together.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, I'd say both of us, I mean, both of us have concepts we add. Uh sometimes it starts with her idea, sometimes it starts with my idea, depending on what we're writing. Um, but we always like we'll toss stuff in together. Uh care I don't think there's any books that don't have both of us, both of us working to develop characters. Um we we we do a lot of back and forth and talking of but most of most of our planning is a conversation. So usually we're usually we're just talking to each other, annoying our kids with it. Um we'll uh we'll just be chatting, you know, chatting back and forth of it, trying to figure things out. So it's usually a blend. Um I'll bring kind of a if it's fantasy, I'll usually bring kind of a history background for that. Um so I usually f have the history, but for Freedom and for Freedom's Val, for example, Karen's the one who came up with the magic system, and then I kind of worked with that. So, but it really depends on the book because we'll we'll back and forth all of this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

That's really interesting. I had another married couple and they write together Blake and Sherry Shimshok, and they do the Derek Fade series, and they're different in that they really divide and conquer. So Sherry's the one actually sitting down and she's getting all the words on the page, and she does all the editing, and then she throws it back at Blake, and Blake is like the concept guy. He sees all the space agents and the intrigue and talks it through with Sherry, and then she's the one who kind of executes. And there's another writing duo I had on the podcast, too. Fill in Paul Garver, and their pseudonym is Daniel P. Douglas, and they're identical twins. It's a trip, and they're the kind of identical twins who look really different. One is bald, and the other one has kind of the librarian glasses, so they're they're distinct, and they toss things back and forth. Sometimes Paul will eat it, sometimes Phil. So, what I'm getting from these duos is you guys are each your own thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Oh, yeah. I don't think there's any one way to do it.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

And I think you guys are super lucky. I do a lot of writing too, and it's basically my bald head with the keyboard, and sometimes it can get kind of lonely, and you don't know whether you're crazy or not, or whether it's a a good idea. And and having someone you're working with throughout the whole process, that must be really w rewarding for you guys.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Oh, yeah, I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

It's really good. Especially um, I'm the extrovert of half of us, so I need to be able to get feedback. I need to Karen likes to have the artistic merit of a story done. I like to finish things good, but for me, it's all about telling. I have to have somebody I'm telling the story to.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

That's my motivation set.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

That's the GM in you coming out.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yes. That's the yeah. So I I've I've got to have that. And but she you really appreciate the feedback too.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

You I do.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

It is it is lonely to do it, you know, by themselves.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yeah, it's hard to imagine what it would be like to do it just by myself, actually.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

That's why I bring this up, folks, because you guys are in that rare category of of co-authors. The X Bandse team, you know, the the show and the books, X Bands. Those guys are friends and they toss chapters to each other, if I got it right. Like you do the even chapters, and I'll do the odd ones, and then they email chapters back and forth, and they got into a rhythm. So they collaborate, and then you got Matt and Trey from South Park. So you do have a lot of creative collaborators, but for writers, it's I think relatively rare. And the fact that you're so symbiotic and you enjoy each other doing it is is very inspiring. That's great. You guys fight ever? You know, I don't like that. Or do you get pissed that your idea didn't get in there, or you gotta arm wrestle to get to get that story hook done one way or another, or are you guys more or less sympathetical with the whole process?

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah, we we don't really argue. No argue. That that's amazing too.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, we'll have differences, but I trust the thing is anything I'm writing, I Karen is 100% gonna edit. And anything she writes, I'm 100% gonna edit. So we and the and it it generally is uh I trust her as a reader. She's if she has a problem with it, then that's a I'm gonna definitely gonna have to change something. And vice versa. So anytime I do that, you'll do it too. Just like we we trust each other.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Trust, empathy, obviously, a lot of affection and love. And then you guys have the the mojo going on, and the the output is self-evident. If you guys have cranked how many novels, nine novels, you said this trilogy's done.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Is it 12 now? I think it's 12. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Wow, wow. So you just shoebox it, you do a novel, you go on to the next one. You haven't thought of tossing it out there, hitting up someone like John. You guys were waiting for this moment, or were you building confidence?

SPEAKER_01 12:42

We submitted the manuscripts, some of the manuscripts we had to a few places. Bayon was one of them. Um, and of course, that one that slush pile was so huge, we didn't really expect to get in on that.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

But it was something, it's hard, it's crazy out there. It's like uh tsunami content.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Oh, yeah, for sure. So we didn't get anything there, but it was okay. Um, it was good to try. And did we try any other publishers? Like some small press things.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

When ArtPress came out, we talked there. We've talked to Aetheon, Aethon people, and that's that was just a a uh genre mismatch, but that's which is fine. Um we never it's not shoeboxed forever, although I'm glad. So I like the fact that we waited because as Karen said, the first novel's never seen a light of day. The second novel it's about 50%. 50% salvageable. Yeah. So that's gonna have a rewrite.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Everyone everyone learns, folks, when you ride a bicycle, you fall down, you can't tune your guitar for six months, just keep playing, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

That's right. So, but I'm glad we have those because um, you know, the plan is the plan was to kind of get started and then have stuff as we're going. Um, for one thing, it's really handy to work on a different, you know, once you're done with something, you move on to something else. Um, Karen just finished the recently finished the first the uh first draft of the third in the Shepherd trilogy. Um, because our objective was to finish that before we release the first, because we don't want to be, you know, but obviously there's revisions to do. So I'm handling the revisions right now. Well, Karen just jumped into the next one, um, jumped into a different genre. But you've really you you found it really refreshing to go in a different genre, different setup, different like it's nice to be able to flip there back and forth so you don't have to work on just one. But some of that just requires patience. It's okay. We'll take a little time. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

All this must be arousing John because he's once he finds an author that he likes and then they get the rhythm, bring bring me more content. So you got you're built, you've got the backlog, and you're also building and you're and you're creating.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yeah, well, I mean, John is uh John's also a smart businessman. He so a small press like what he runs, he can't um he actually can't publish everything. Because there's he because he's an actually legit publisher, he he's not a vanity press, he doesn't ask for money up front, which as you know, that is a huge red flag. He but John is uh John is a very honest guy. He's not gonna do that. But as a result, I mean most small presses like that don't have the um ability to put out tons and tons and tons of novels every, you know, all he does they don't have a huge pipeline for that. They only have so much budget they have and so much time for um edit editors because you do have only so many editors, even though we're back and forthing dev edits are still great. It's a really big and you still want somebody else looking at it. So um actually we have so you talk to Sam Rob because we're publishing, you know, out of Celine, but we actually we sent some short stories to Rack Press. Um, and then Rack Press, you know, had an open call for people who've done stories with them, hey, send some novels. So we have some novels that are more for their their tone. Um one's a boys' book, and then another one is a uh weird one. I don't know. Another one is uh I think it is uh we'll see, it is a near future post-apocalyptic paranormal, paranormal sci-fi uh religious thriller.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

That sounds like some shit I would write. Just the big mix of big mix of a million things all at once, which which is hard to pitch because people like they like their lane. People want to be in their lane.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I mean, reasonably. So we seen we'll uh we we're talking to Rack, so we sent that. Um they haven't made they haven't made any decisions there. Um we love that thing and definitely gonna have released at some point. But the point is um you have there's only so many resources people have. And so, and it's not like I mean, it's not like you're ha I'm really happy to work with John. We've enjoyed working with John. Obviously, we immediately sent him the next one. He's he's great to work with, and we're very pleased with Shepard, but that doesn't mean that's the only project you ever work with. Nobody ever signs your firstborn child. Well, actually, so again, some presses do that. That's called being bad in a predatory press. Never ever, you know, and John would be the first one to tell you never sign a contract with somebody that says all future works are mine. That'd be that'd be easy.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

The fraud out there is huge. Everything from email scammers promising you that Netflix mini-series if you just just respond, right? All the way to vanity presses, to your point, which is pay to print, yeah, with no assurance even that you're gonna make money on the books that do sell. So it's it's it's riveted with fraud. And uh, you know, you make a great point that if you are an honest press, you've got limited pipeline. And that's what I was hinting at that John must be thrilled because you guys are a creative engine, he likes your stuff, and you've got a trilogy cooking. That is a great opportunity. And speaking of which, tell us a little bit about it. I've checked it out, and it you've got a little Hellenic Greek method.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah, it's kind of that Greek theme. Yeah. So it's kind of our, I guess, you know, the one of the fast elevator pitch, you know, it's our epic fantasy Freedom's Val is our epic fantasy novels set in a Hellenistic world of myth and adventure. Um, so rather than like a hard magic uh book that's never setting foot outside of a city, uh, Freedom's Val, a young magically gifted slave and an old soldier embarking on a quest for freedom by journeying through a classical Greek-inspired world of mystery and danger, trying to stop a war between their two cities, orchestrated by darker forces from outside the world. Um, so it's written for anyone who loves fantasy adventure and the excitement of a spear on a shield. Like that's kind of our our quick pitch. Most of it is we just love the classic, you know. We love journeying. You know, I'm always twitching. I'm like, we got to get outside of a city. You know, there's so many stuff, you know. I get twitchy if we're inside of a city. I'm just like, no. We I kind of grew up on journey fantasy where you go out into places of myth and legends in the wild. And so that's kind of our that was a big appeal to us. And that's all the books in the trilogy. Um, the pill the city is a big part of it, um, but it's also gonna be out and about, you're gonna see wilds and strange things. So that's the excitement.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

I like the character of Arit, who is a shepherd. Tell us a little bit about that, without too many spoilers, but I think this is a good good teaser. She's she's got a gift, and she teams up with Phylon, who is a soldier who witnessed that gift wrecking his his group. And rather than being vengeful, the dude is like, wait a second, I I want to understand you. And they create this interesting relationship between soldier and shepherd. So can you give us a little a little a little zip to that? How did you think of that dynamic? Did I more or less get it right?

SPEAKER_00 19:55

It's close to it, yeah. Yeah, that's yeah, that's close to it. So a lot of it is um, you know, the shepherds are the shepherds are people who are gifted with the magic to inspire passions in other people. So they can inspire rage or courage, they can inspire fear or calm.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Um my kids do that.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah, you know, that's that's where all of it comes in. Um, but they also have um kind of the mechanisms of it is there, but you witness in the very pro in the prologue, you witness the fact that they can also do a little bit more, and that's not all of them, but some of them can do a little bit more. And Phylon witnesses some rather horrific elemental powers that throw over his city, and that's what gets him enslaved. So he um he kind of witnesses that and he doesn't really understand. So I wouldn't say Phylon's not vengeful. I'd say though that he's the kind of vengeful guy that thinks and wants to study the problem before he goes into, you know, know thy enemy. Yes. So so we we love I love the uh I've love the dynamic between them because he is kind to her early on, but he also wants to know. He's using her to uh he's using her to understand more about shepherds as she learns about it, too.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yeah, it's a mix, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

I I think the premise is is is superb and that to your point, you don't go over the top with the magic. So a lot of fantasy novels just go bonkers with the world building, and then there are all these spells, and they they go into wormholes, and you know, you're turning pages, and it seems to neglect character and drama and an emergent story which is emotionally compelling. And you guys honor the characters, their motivations, and as you're reading it, you wanna you wanna be a part of that, and you can identify with either character, which is which is I think cool. And it's not so much about good. Guys and bad guys, but it's about their dynamic as this emergent relationship. And that I think makes for a compelling read.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah, I mean, we definitely I feel like characterization comes first. We read stories because of the people in the stories.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

And so yeah, it's very important to get that right.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah, I I often will pick up a book because, well, you pick up the book because of cover and then you read the blurb. But what you the reason why you start something is because of setting. You know, this is an interesting setting idea. This is the but the reason why you keep reading is because you like to spend time with the people in it. That's that's why you would ever want to, you know, keep reading. And we've been we've been really pleased with the people who've reviewed so far. Everybody's been really um it's nice because you know, you're very close to the story, you work on it hard. So your your hope is always that other people will find them compelling too. And so far everybody's been like, I really care. And there's been, you know, the uh so we got our first four-star review, and the guy was like, My complaint, the reason why I'm knocking a star off is I wanted more phylon. So I think that's a good complaint.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

That's a good sign.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

That is I'm pretty happy with it.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

We've got two more books coming, so we can definitely accommodate that.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

And that is a great point because people get vested. You're you're not gonna get that kind of reaction and that kind of disappointment if that character didn't really move this person to the point where they self-identify and just want more. It's like you're serving a meal to people, and if their criticism is you didn't give me enough, then hey, that's uh that to your point is a terrific compliment. It's not really a criticism.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

We just served up, we were just writing two more books with we just wrote two more books, so yeah, we have it. We have don't worry, we got more.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

And how does this unfold? Just what kind of arc are we talking? Again, no spoilers, we don't want to ruin anything, but when you when you were writing the first one, did you have enough juice to think that it would be a trilogy? Because you say you guys outlined, that's a big part of your process. Was the outline limited to just this one, or or was it a bigger arc of a story, and you knew you were on to something really juicy?

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Well, we initially knew that it would be at least a trilogy. Um, Ben wrote the prologue, and in it there's a man who's very mysterious. He's the one that drives the city to its knees. And um in that we were like, this character needs exploration. So we know that we're gonna develop this particular character throughout the entire series. And so we knew there would be at least three books, and we had the first one outlined completely, and it was pretty soon after that we knew there would be two more books, and we kind of had the main idea of what was gonna happen in each of those. We didn't outline them until later. And I would say we outlined the second, wrote the second, and then outlined the third and wrote the third. But we we kind of had an idea of where we were going first.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yeah, a good balance between the two, which is the you know, everyone says that the planner and the the the the plancer or the pantser. Yeah, the reader the writers who just kind of like wander around and they think up cool stuff, and other ones who are really working out every detail before they even hit the keyboard. So it's it's a bit of a balance for you guys, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah, yeah. Although I will say, um, of the three books, um, Freedom's Now is the most, it tells so it is it tells a complete story, but then there's a lot of stuff going on for there's the bigger arc, but it does tell its own complete arc as well. Because I mean, I always figure that's kind of something you owe to anybody who's reading, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

It doesn't end on a cliffhanger that's like, oh no, I have to read the next book. This is very incomplete. Right. Why are we stopping here?

unknown 25:46

No.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

The Dan Brown thing, you know, where it's like, oh my god, you know, I gotta get off the bus. I can't.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

I gotta finish this. That would that works pretty well. Yeah, and it sounds like again, you you knew enough to be dangerous for the for the trilogy. You weren't really like George Lucas in Star Wars, where Frankly had no idea how to even finish the first movie. Everyone looks back and is like, oh, the nine, the nine series, you know, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. No, he had no idea. After the fact, uh Luke's his son, and Darth's his dad, whatever works. So it shows you the the way the creative process varies, right? Depending on the movie.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

It's really crazy. He only made three movies. It's there's only ever three Star Wars movies. It's it's just a pity. I wonder what happened if there were more. They would probably have been great and not at all disappointing.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

It's sometimes uh a roll of the dice, but um, but if you stay true to your vision and uh and what fueled the process in the in the in the beginning, I think you're probably set for a for a good time, especially for the people on the receiving end of your content. And speaking of which, uh receiving end of content, what inspires you guys? So has um speculative fiction been your focus since you guys first started working together? Was that is that your preferred preferred genre?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

You guys aren't doing historical novels or biographies of no, it's well, I've I actually recently read Rebel Yell, uh biography of Stonewall Jackson, and that really helped with the militaristic side of uh the second and third book. So there's a little bit of that, but mostly we are genre genre readers.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

I I like biographies too. That's kind of an inspiration, but we we've never had a drive to write that. Uh some of it is uh Karen's minors in tech writing, and I do a ton, I do a ton of technical writing too. So the non-fiction writing, I do enough in my day job. I do plenty enough in my day job. There's I didn't feel I didn't feel like there was a need. I I can't imagine going into all that very technical writing and then writing a tech a non-fiction technical book afterwards. That's uh it'd be very different.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

That that's relatively rare, you know. Like classical musicians can't play jazz, they can't improvise, it'll kill them. They gotta just read the notes on the damn measure and they gotta play it exactly surgically because that's who they are. And then jazz people, you know, a lot of them don't even read music, it's just like they're letting it loose. And then creative writing, like what you guys are doing at night for something like Freedom's Valve, is just so different in a sense from technical writing. Totally different attitude, totally different mindset, probably different part of the brain. How'd you guys is it a bit of a relief to your point? Like all day I'm I'm laying down specifications for an app, and then I come home and I hang out with Karen and we and we recreate Greek society and infuse it with magic. Is that therapeutic in a way?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah, I mean it's definitely fun. It's definitely something we so the thing is we would be we would be coming up with this sort of thing for free no matter what, if it even if we never, you know, never shared.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Well, you did for years. Yeah. You guys were writing where the only positive reinforcement was the pleasure that you guys got working together and the feeling of satisfaction that you were finishing stuff and getting better at it. That that's that's very admirable too, because a lot of folks are like they they write to be Andy Weir, they write to win. They you think there's this other reason that we do this, and there's a purity in just being able to create without worrying too much about that stuff. And then to your point, when you're ready, then sure, you know, go for it. But um, that's I think satisfying.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we always wanted to share the stories because there's something about artistic stuff that's meant to be shared, but but it's like I I don't ever remember feeling an urgency to do so. I always felt like down the road, we will find somebody to publish our stuff or we'll indie publish. So we'll get there, but it didn't have to be at that moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah. And yeah, so that's kind of, you know, we'd like to be successful, but mostly we'd like to be successful because we like to share more stories. We'd like to have more people reading. Like it's the the excitement is is not, oh, I've got sales number, you know, we're looking at this, you know. The excitement is oh, awesome. More people get to like we get to share the story with more people, we get to have more people enjoy it. That's kind of what we're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Yeah, it's very rewarding. Yeah, now you're busting out. So you guys worked, and now you hooked up with John. And I talked to John, and he basically said, 50-50. I'm gonna put you on my mailing list, I'm gonna get you a badass cover, I'm gonna give you editorial and creative support. You're you're under my logo, and we work together as a team. But there's a handoff, which is the onus is on the writer to go out there and do some hustling, whether it's social media engagement, do videos on TikTok, book talk, go to Comic Cons, go to Liberty, go back to LibertyCon with scene of the crime. You guys are busy though. You've got kids, you've got jobs, you've got the whole American situation. So, uh, what are your plans for doing the marketing aspect of your debut novel? How are you guys gonna activate those readers who now are ready for the book that you've worked so hard to create?

SPEAKER_00 31:26

We have to do anything more. We're on the science fiction uh factory with Mookie Spitz. I don't think there's anything more.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

I mean That's it.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

That's that's it.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

That's I'm gonna send the link to this podcast to John and just be like you should. Yeah, I mean, I mean that's that's mostly they they chatted with Mookie and and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Yeah, so actually, um so part of it is you know, I've been publishing RPG adventures for a long time. Um, so I have a I have a list there. Um, this might shock you. There's a huge overlap between people who love fantasy and people who play DD style games. I know.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Had uh lit RPG guys too on my podcast before. And I I think the genre is is fascinating. I learned a lot. Lit RPG is hot. There's a lot going on there.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yeah, well, I um so I've been telling my basically the my fans on the RPG side, just hey, there's a fantasy book. Hey, if you uh you know, I know you like the stories and setup I do, even though I don't I don't write out when I run out adventures, I'm not writing out something for to run them through a story. I very much have a sandbox. Players go play with it and break it, whatever they want. But I was like, you know, I like setting this stuff up, so why don't you check it out? Um I did like we put um the nice thing about being a publisher is I can put full pre full spread ad in the back of my adventures. So I have done that, you know. It's you know, in that case, I am the publisher. I just was like, you know what? I'm just gonna put it in the back here. We can see it. Um, you know, we talk to folks, uh, a lot of it is uh doing shows like this, you know, talking, um just hopefully sharing that with RPG side people as well. And then we both have um, you know, we have some social media punch, although I don't think social media, so social media people try to think they try to market that way. It's good to make friends who like to buy your stuff because they like you as a person. Social media, though, is made to be social media, it's made to be social, it's made to keep everything in platform. It they everything Facebook, Twitter, like TikTok, Instagram, everything like that, hates free advertising.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Well, yeah, why why should they give you reach? Exactly. When the when they could squeeze you and make you pay for it. Every once in a while, they'll throw you a teaser, like, oh, you went viral, like almost by accident. I'll post a video and like, wow, look at that. And then five minutes later, I'll post something else almost exactly the same. They're like, uh, you know, come on, Mookie, pay up if you want another one.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Yeah, so we're I mean, we're telling people on that, but honestly, the biggest reach for those has been uh relationships you make. Um, and people who do know us on the socials are like, oh, I know these are real human beings. You know, I I like Ben and Karen. These are people who share memes and jokes, and just I think it's important to just be a person because any genre that they don't care about you being a person will be completely swamped by AI stuff. Like the reader who does not care about a human being, uh there's no point in competing for that reader. I mean, I don't I'm not one of those. I don't understand that reader, but you know what? That reader is swimming in an ocean of AI content. There's no point in me trying to say, you know, me trying to say, hey, let me sell you something different. Because if that person likes the AI stuff, that's great. But I do say, hey, you know, we're a pair of actual human beings. This is the stuff we like to do. This is the stuff we're having fun with. And other people go, yeah, I'd like to check it out. And then it's important to actually write something that's interesting and fun. Again, that's the that's people go check it out. And then something that's interesting and fun, people go, Oh, yeah, this is fun. Like this is something we can enjoy together.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Content is king and the context is queen, as they say. So when it comes to social media, it really is about community building.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

So it isn't just barfing out your stuff, and even if you do paid ads to your exact point, you're competing with all the AI slop. They don't really know who the hell you are, and it's an unqualified lead, so to speak. And all of a sudden you appear on their feed, they're doom strolling anyway, they got no connection with you. So, really, what's the damn point? And if you do want meaningful engagement, it should be human to human. That's one reason I love these podcasts because I get to meet other authors and we get to talk cool ideas, and it becomes amazingly human. Like, how often do we like a writer too? And we just see them, we see them on Substack, or you know, their stuff appears on social, and it's just text. There's a barrier to actually meet a writer and to talk to them that they're human and they're they're scintillating with cool ideas, is is super fun. It's we should all do more of it, which is connect with people. And then the other one is going out to actually physically sell books. So, are you guys is is there gonna be another setup at LibertyCon? And are you are you part of the uh the Canon Celine gravy train now? Are you guys gonna go for that?

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Yeah, Ben sent it to LibertyCon this year.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yeah, so I'll be I'll be there at LibertyCon this year and we'll we'll be sitting up at the table, um, telling people. Um actually Rack Press is there too, so I'll be like, hey, you know, you're welcome to buy uh the anthologies we're in. Um although I have my personal copy where we we want to get signatures from other people who wrote in the anthologies just because hey, I really enjoyed your like I enjoyed the story. Can I get you know you sign our book? But um, yeah, so we're gonna do the in-person sales thing too. It's we're not doing a huge con circuit right now because as mentioned, we have kids that are that it doesn't yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

I mean, I I brought that up too, which is part of the challenge of all this. People people don't realize that the marketing aspect is so time intensive and so difficult. And then conversely, a lot of writers are like, Well, I killed myself to write this book. You know, here's here, world, take it, now I'm done. So there has to be a balance between living a life where you're able to go out there and do it and then meet your family responsibilities, professional responsibilities. Because there aren't too many full-time writers out there. It's like tip of the pyramid, right? I've I mean, I've had like Nebula Award winners, fantasy winners, and I have them on, and I'm even a little intimidated. Like, this person has just had their book reviewed in the Wall Street Journal and Scientist Magazine, and I'm like, and then he's the first to say it is like, man, I got a day job. Thanks for making time, Mookie, because uh, you know, I gotta go back and uh you know pay the rent. So it it's tough. Even if you've made it, it's it's very, very difficult as a writer to to hit that hit that hit that goal of being independent in a way where you're financially not having to rely on a day job, frankly. It's it's uh hard. I mean, we do this because we love it. Uh it'll probably be more lucrative to sell real estate crypto or think of all the time you guys spent writing.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Looking to make money, we would not be doing this.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Yeah, our first grader was our first grader was saying that yet and it's like, you just are you just wanting money? And we're like, uh buddy, if we just wanted money, trust me, there's many things we'd do differently. But I mean, but I mean, obviously we'd like to I like we would like it to be successful, but a big part of the the desire for success is just like I said, the sharing that because that's intrinsically and I would feel like it'd be a waste of I mean the money would be the only thing I'd get if I was doing real estate as a side gig. Whereas Karen and I love the time we spend together on these books. We're proud of the time we we uh spend on these. We're there's something intrinsically good about writing something good, putting something out there that is good, that is worthwhile. You know, like there's it's not just satisfaction, it's knowing that you've added to the world in some way, you know. And that helps. That helps a lot. I mean, it's time we spend together, so I'm not gonna discount any of it.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I find that so relatable too. I actually love writing and I love the meditative process of sitting here, my bald ass, just you know, creating stories. And I might even are on the opposite side where I love it so much, I just want to write a book that I want to read. So, so the the the problem with that is, well, you know, people might see it and they're like, Well, what the hell is this? And I'm like, Yeah, you know, I'll just write another one. So, so being collaborative, I think, is part of the process too. And you mentioned that you passed it over to editors at Celine Press, then, right? So after you you you you meet John at LibertyCon, you're like, we've got a book, we've got a series, actually, and then you throw it over the fence. Um, how did you feel about empowering other people with your work? And when the changes came in, what was that dynamic like? Because we've got a lot of you know, readers and writers listening and watching, and they're curious about this too, which is it freaks people out to have people comment on their work and provide feedback, maybe move stuff around, change the situation. It's your baby, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Yeah, we um actually the first step there was John called me and we had a long conversation about the book. And it was like drinking from a fire hose. He had so many things to say about it. And I wouldn't say he was tearing it apart or anything, but he was getting down into the details and being like, well, does this work? Does this work? What do you think about this? And that was amazing. Like, I I loved having that feedback because it I think it made the book better. And I'm all for improving on the craft. Like it's not like I'm I'm okay with murdering my darlings, basically. It's it's uh it can be a little painful, but at the same time, it's in the service of creating something better. And so I really appreciated that feedback. And that was the first step that we had from him before we uh even before we signed on with Celine.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

You guys mind melded though. I mean, on a basic level, if John comes out of nowhere and he's like calling the shots on your stuff, you you sense that he had a sensitivity to the core idea and what you were trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

I think that's really important. So if you bring in a partner, they need to get it. Yeah, fundamentally.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Yeah, yeah. And he's yeah, he had a he has a good, he has good storyteller instincts. So again, it's the emission initially it's like, whoa, but I think it only I mean, we we talked about it for like an hour afterwards, and and by the end of it, we're like, no, this is exciting. This improves, every everything here improves. The thing about editorial, editorial comments, you never have to say what the editor suggests, but you always have to address whatever the editor's problems are. You know, you know, because John had some like, maybe you could do this, but this isn't working for me. So you don't have to say the maybe you can do this part, but you do have to always address the this isn't working. So that that was kind of a fun puzzle. I I think we actually really enjoyed the puzzle aspect because um, you know, there's a craft aspect where it's just kind of interesting to uh figure out how best to tell something, and it's all in service of making the best possible book you can, making the story giving what it deserves. I think there was a big that was a big part of the appeal.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

And appeasing a readership that he's familiar with. He's published a bunch of books and he talks to the readers and he gets the feedback, so you have that conduit to an audience, and presumably he's channeling some of that because obviously it's in his best interest to make them happy. So if it's an honest and transparent exchange, then you're getting visibility into a target audience that you might not have thought of when you were actually writing the book. And when you're writing a book, there are a lot of different contingencies that pop up that might have nothing to do with the reader per se. You're all immersed in the story and and the building, and sometimes there's still scaffolding left, right? That you kind of have to remove and and polish a little bit. But it but it also takes it takes a certain amount of of courage to accept feedback and integrate it and collaborate.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

No, it's uh I guess I guess that's the another th that was actually another benefit of having all these novels written beforehand. Um it you're not it it's probably a lot harder if this is your very first baby, if this is your very first experience, this is your very first manuscript, which ironically is probably the one that needs the most work. Although in the case of our first manuscript, it needed to be taken out back and shot.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

You've brought that that failed book up so much, I'm dying to I'm dying to check it out. And you know, watch, you know, eventually you guys become rich and famous and and doing your series, and you got the new Game of Thrones from from Ben and Karen, and uh they go back to your first book. It becomes the biggest hit ever.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

And we look at the camera and shrug, and what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 44:57

And then you're like, you're like this. You're like, oh no.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Okay, that's fine. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

But it helps. It basically helps to realize there there's more than one story in the world, and everything it helps, you know. This isn't I mean, some people just have the ones, the one story in them, and that's good, that's fine. Um, I mean, most people, I mean, it's what, something like three percent of people who start a novel ever finish it. So if you've done that one, that's all you ever want to do, that means you're a part of the three percent who've attempted a novel and actually done it. There's something admirable in in and of that. But at this point, you're just we're just like, we no, we have other stories. It's okay, we're working on other stuff. And that gives you kind of perspective. No, this one can be improved. And so it's been good.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

And having more confidence in what you write, and instead of like being so dependent on other people. I mean, you want to listen to other people, but at some point you have to be like, no, this is good. I I think that this is gonna work out, and and not be crushed when someone else has a comment and feel like, oh, I'm a terrible writer, I'm awful. Like it there's a balance there.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

My kid was asking me the other day, hey Mookie, how come they're one-hit wonders? Like, remember that song, Who Let the Dogs Out? I don't know. I who did that? I don't know. I remember the song, and there's a bunch of bands, especially from the 80s and 90s, where they had one hit, like Take On Me. Remember that video? It was they were slated for stardom MTV and they just vanished. And I just think they they didn't have what you guys have, which is this hunger and this output, where it's not looking at a page and going, Oh man, what am I gonna write now? But you guys have to make time to get all your ideas on the page. And there's two types of writers, like you say, there's a 3% who actually finish or at least start a book and get going. But of that percentage, you know, it's even smaller where it just keeps coming. It's like it's just flowing out. I had Jay Kenton Pierce, who's Sam Robb's buddy, uh, on it, and he he just went on for 20 minutes straight about his his universe, and that dude lives it. He just he zombie shambles all over his apartment, just channeling all of his shit. And I I'm kind of like that too, and it sounds like you guys are like that too, where it's like you guys have almost more ideas than you can get on the page, and it's a matter of of just getting it out there, which is which is cool. So you're not limited in content, but you're limited in time and resources and just being able to get it done.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah, I'm just thinking of so I was just thinking of novel ideas that we've talked about just off the top of my head, you know, I'm thinking it's eight right now.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

That's what I mean. It's like it's like, you know, oh what what should we do now, Karen? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

No ideas.

unknown 48:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

But this, I mean, that's a good problem to have. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

So speaking of which, um, you've got you've got the Shepherd series that's pretty much done, and it's a trilogy. And you mentioned ziggin' and zagging with genre. So when people think of Ben and Karen, what what what what's next, or what, what is on the horizon just to give us a teaser about other stuff. And then when you look backward, not just forward, you guys have a bunch of books. I'm sure you're proud of some of the novels that other novels that haven't seen the light of day yet. And now you're learning new stuff.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Working working with John, the editorial pop process, developmental editorial stuff, and you're picking up the tricks of the trade. And I'm assuming you could go back to your catalog, dust stuff off, and uh, and bring that to life. Uh, a reporter asked Seth Rogan, the screenwriter and actor, you do a movie a year. How how the hell you do that? And he goes, Well, you know, I wrote and wrote and wrote for a decade, and nobody cared, and I couldn't sell in anything. So I've got a huge stack of scripts that no one wanted before. And all the new movies you see me cranking out, I wrote those years ago, buddy. And I finally got a chance to go for it. So I think you guys are in kind of in a similar boat where you already have a library of content that you could even go back to, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Yeah, definitely we do. Um, I would say we don't have a complete series to go back to, however. We've started several different series, and we have a couple books to write in one, we have a couple books to write in another still. So we it would take some time to go back and revisit those and develop, like in one instance, we haven't written the first book of the series. Like we initially thought we had, but then we realized, oh no, there needs to be something before this, and so we have to go back and rewrite the first one. And yeah, so what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 50:01

So, and that's kind of once again, we really do not want to put out a series without the whole thing written. That's just kind of our feelings. I mean, there's people who do it, and that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

But that's kind of our very unconventional too.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Well, we just we've been this we're readers, we've been disappointed by series that we enjoyed that that Game of Thrones. Yes. Well, so I kind of blame Martin for that one, but there's other ones. Um there's the um Lies of Local Moro from Scott Lynch. Um, Scott Lynch, it's not his fault. He's had some really horrible health problems. You know, it's not I I don't blame him as a person. You know, sometimes just life happens, but I really um it's I'm not interested in continu I the first book was good, but I'm not interested in continuing the next two books because I was just like, I I know the the planned seven books are never gonna be finished. Um whereas there's there's another writer, Michael J. J. Sullivan, he's a fantasy writer um of some note. He that's what he does. He always releases his he kickstarts his books, but he always releases them. Uh he's like, I'm doing the Kickstarter. I'm not doing this Kickstarter until the whole thing's done. So that's kind of where we that's kind of where we feel about um series. So the five book series, we've written three books of it, and we're like, yeah, we'll go back and we'll finish it. But I mean, I guess right now you're excited about um I like I said, while I'm revising the um third book in the Shepherd trilogy, Karen started the uh a Mill Sci-Fi book, um, which is gonna be that's gonna be fun. It's gonna be some of the uh the other guys. It is a a logistics, it's a uh logistics reservist ship as the only survivor of a uh of a fleet disaster. They have to kind of fight their way free and uh be chased through an entire sector to the uh man who did it all. But it's a bunch of it's a bunch of reservist other guys in a uh in a kind of aging ship that they all have to run. That's gonna be the Flight of the Fox series. Looking forward to that. And then we do have some standalones. What I mentioned to um what I mentioned that uh Rack Press is looking at is uh uh that's a weirdo one called Oak Ridge, where it's a post um post-CME America that has just been, you know, blasted by um so a lot of electronics are gone because there's been coronal mass ejections. And um at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the scientists there are experimenting with portals, and of course the portals lead to hell. And so, of course, hell invades. You know, it's it's one of those things. Um, but I was I was like, you know, I don't like this. I don't not uh none of our books are ever gonna be like dark or nihilistic. None of we don't we don't go in for that. But I was like, for Oak Ridge, the uh you know, it starts with demons coming out and uh you know stuff appearing, but they get knocked back. And America, like a bunch of guard units and militia on ATVs, counterinvade. And you uh the final the uh final bit of the book is gonna be United States military counterinvading into hell itself, uh behind nuclear bombardment. Yes. Uh it ends it ends with the it ends with the protagonists uh using the Davy Crockett personal nuclear, you know, the personal nuclear uh weapon.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

That's the one-man one. It was the mobile warhead.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yes, to uh personal snipers. Yes. So you can see why that one's a kind of a weirdo for like I don't know how you put that in an Amazon category.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

That's got a hellboyish kind of flavor, only in reverse, where the humans go to hell instead of the other way around. And it's kind of like given hell in hell, yes, or given given hell hell. That's pretty good. That's I love that theme. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

And that's actually a standalone, so that's one we're gonna be looking at.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

You take a trope and you you flip it around because usually the usually the demons are coming from hell, right? Well, it's we gotta deal with them here.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

I mean, exactly, but they started that way. But they the problem is they were invading in the middle of rural Tennessee, and that's not gonna end well.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

No, it's not gonna end well for any invader.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

No, no, even even the legions of hell, that's not a good ending.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

I love that premise. That that is that is super fun. Um, you know, Neil Gaiman's Sandman. I don't know if you're into like the graphic novels, too. That's a classic. And one of the best ones is when uh Morpheus, the dream, the dream guy, he goes to hell because he's got uh got a deal with Satan, and he's just you know kind of cooking in hell, and you got all this stuff going on. Hell hell is always interesting, hell is even more interesting than heaven, I think, at least in terms of drama, right? In heaven, it's like that talking head song. They're always playing your favorite song, everything's really chill. Not much, not much can happen, but in hell, everything goes wrong all the time. And you know, if you're hell-bent in hell, that just doubles up the trouble.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

No, you it's it's fun to do, and it's it's always fun. Like we also, I mean, again, we always have ideas. We're looking at a boys' book, some middle grade.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

So YA, you guys do some YA stuff.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

So YA is a tainted brand, and so and the fact that no boy will ever pick up a book that says YA anymore.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

That's like Cryp Kryptonite. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Uh, it is definitely a boys' book, like a middle grade book that um, but it's uh some elementary kids on a caving, just like a cave tour field trip, one uh notice a bioluminescent salamander go wandering off, get themselves uh get themselves caved in and go deeper and deeper into the earth. And that's almost like a Jules Verney. I mean, we're both science nerds, uh, so Karen's Karen's degrees in chemistry, minds and physics. So we but then it's just kind of exploring deeper and deeper into the earth, the strange biology as they go deeper and deeper in, and they see they meet remnant humans and all that sort of thing, but it's a bunch of kids, and that's that's that was a really fun one, too.

SPEAKER_04 56:16

Yeah, that's fun.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

But again, you just we always have these ideas, but we're I mean, I will say also, um, if if this continues to be, if this is continuing to be successful, the three C's world, which is the world where Freedom's Vow is set in, we you know, we've already talked about, man, I hope this is successful so that we can write more in this world. Because even right, the trilogy is complete, but there's more stories to tell.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

Absolutely. And this goes back to what we were saying before. It's not about thinking of new ideas, but it's just finding the time to channel them. And then if you got the momentum of an actual commercial success, then you're you then you're off to the races.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

So good luck to you guys. Very exciting. It's been a a real joy listening and talking to you guys. And I I just uh my heart's warm seeing that you know, a married couple collaborating, co-creating. That's that's very, very, very cool. What what what what do your respective families think about your your creativity? Do you think do they think you guys are kind of weird or are they are they on board? They're nerds, probably mixed.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

They're nerds, they're nerds, so it's it's yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're nerds who come from places of nerdness whose kids are nerds, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

They're like, this is so cool. Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

Yeah. It's not like you need to blush and and lie at Thanksgiving, but you're like, hey, you know, here's our new salamander story, and and we're given hell in hell. And they're like, Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Well, I mean, where you're um, I know recently you interviewed another another gentleman from Huntsville, Alabama. Um, so that's where we are, you know, NASA City. This is this is nerd nerdtown, USA. So it's it's not the sort of thing you're shame ashamed about amongst your friends around here. It's it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

That's cool because just being associated with the space program makes it uh makes it a natural. And he's a navy guy, he was a nuclear engineer, so he's uh a tech guy like you, Mark Kanofer. He's got that that zeitgeist, I think, too, which is that southern spirit. Give him hell, take no names.

SPEAKER_04 58:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

And at the same time, you have that geekery that goes with it. So it's like southern, southern geekery, which is cool. That's a that's a very cool combination.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

It's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

So thank you for your time, Ben. We appreciate it. Thank you. Gibson with their debut novel with Selene Press, Freedom's Vow, first in a trilogy. It's out where books are available. Get it on Amazon. You got the Kindle pumping too. And then when can we expect book two?

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Uh, that is up to the dev editor. So that while you're texting John, you can ask, hey, hey, hey, have you gotten done yet? But uh, we're we're when we were initially talking, we're talking about maybe it takes four months. Um, because you know, there's cover design, there's edit edit passes, there's formatting and that sort of thing. But that's that's really all that's there for it. We've got it, we've we've got it there, which is which is great. We're excited.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

It's also marketing pacing, right? Because you want to keep people guessing, you want to build up market swell, market enthusiasm for the first one, and you want them hungry, which is uh supply and demand, right? So if there's a lot of demand, you want to keep the supply a bit of a tease until they're ready to pop, and then you give them that, and then you can work on the third one too. Get that in the pipeline as well. So like, comment, share, subscribe, folks, and links below to uh visit your author page and your homepage and get your book.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

Oh, yeah, and I guess I should note uh if you've heard all this and still want to check us out for free, our newsletter. We have a novel, we actually have a novella set in the three C's universe. Uh so we have that as a free giveaway for our newsletter if anybody wants it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

That's perfect. And that's your your your your personal website.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

Yes, yeah, just bkgibbsen.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

I'll keep check again below, folks. Uh we'll I'll have that for you. Just click on the link and then get to know Ben and Karen and track them.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

And then the Netflix miniseries is they've been really slow about reaching out to us.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

I'm sure they've they just messed up our number. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

They were watching the uh Mookie Science Factory, and come on, gotta go for it. Thank you so much, and I I'd love to follow up with you for book two. Absolutely. You know, keep it keep it cranked. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Thanks. Thank you.