The Grief Behind the Illness: What Nurses See That Medicine Misses

In this episode of Death Is My Life, I sit down with Dawn Michele Jackson, a nurse who spent nearly three decades in healthcare before making a powerful shift into grief recovery work.

Dawn shares how years of working with patients—especially veterans—showed her that physical illness is often deeply connected to unresolved grief, life transitions, and emotional trauma. After experiencing burnout during the COVID era, she realized her true passion was helping people heal emotionally, not just physically.

We talk about the Advanced Grief Recovery Method, an evidence-based program designed to help people move beyond surviving loss and start thriving again. Dawn explains how grief can stem from many life changes—death, divorce, health crises, and major transitions—and why so many people feel stuck in their pain for years.

As a hospice nurse, I see firsthand how important emotional healing is in the medical world, and this conversation explores what happens when we finally address the grief behind the symptoms.

Learn more about Dawn, the Advanced Grief Recovery Method, and find other healing resources at: 

https://www.dawnmichelejackson.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Welcome to Death is My Life podcast. Today we're here with Don Jackson. So hi Don. Hi, Jolene.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Great to be here today.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to hear what you have to say. So you were a nurse for 30 years, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Yeah, I practiced nursing for 28. So yeah, I left nursing in 2022.

unknown 0:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Okay. And so that's a big move. So uh can you tell us how you decided to shift your career after 28 years?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Yeah. So I'd been noticing for the last few years of my nursing career that I I just I kind of was burnt out. You know, I went through COVID in the healthcare profession. And I really was noticing that I was seeing my patients with a lot of physical health issues after something that kind of stirred up their life, some type of transition or loss. You know, I was working with veterans at the time and they were losing their partners, or you know, they had changes in their health. And then they'd end up with some pretty significant health issues, but we weren't really doing a lot to help them with the emotional part. And I was already a grief recovery method specialist and had been for a few years. And I just decided that I'm really passionate about helping people in a different way. And so that's why I decided to leave and start my own business.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Okay, that is so true and so overlooked for sure. I like I love hospice because of that, because we get to provide so much emotional support. And that that's what I do. I'm a hospital. So we have our veterans. Um okay, so so tell us, can you tell us about what the advanced grief recovery method is?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

So yeah, it's an evidence-based tools, set of tools that helps people move from a state of surviving and you know, being stuck and stuck in pain that maybe they've been living with for years, whether it was related to a death or a divorce or any type of change or loss in their life. And it helps them process it and actually come out on the other side feeling like they can navigate life with greater ease and find joy again and thrive versus where they probably had been for quite some time.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Okay. So I imagine that because it's a it's probably a process that we have to go through, they don't just see you one time. So no, like, is it just individual-based and you see them as long as they need you?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

It's usually seven to eight weeks. Uh, you we can offer groups. I love to work with people one-on-one because I really want to connect deeply with my clients and I get to know them so much more and connect with that one-on-one platform versus being in a big group, but certainly we can offer both types, and I do my most of my work online because if it was only in person, I wouldn't be able to help as many people. This way I can help people all over the world.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

So you have clients all over the world. I do, yeah. It's kind of interesting to see where people live and yeah, just be able to help them in a way that's going to transform their lives when maybe they've felt stuck for years.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Can you share like some of the techniques that we go through? Um, we spend a lot of time in the first couple of weeks really looking at myths and beliefs that we learned in childhood and talking about how those have probably not benefited us throughout our life. Because, you know, we learn things like, well, you need to be strong for other people. And, you know, many of us are told others don't want to hear about you know what you're going through. And so we isolate, you know, we also hear unhelpful comments like, oh, you'll feel better with time. But the truth is, is that time just passes. It's what we do with that time that really helps people. It's like if we get a flat tire on the side of the row, we can't just sit there and wait for the tire to reinflate. Like we have to do something, we have to take actions. And the same it happens when our heart hurts. We need to take some actions to help it heal. So we look at some of those things, and then we look at like our whole life and things that we've experienced, and we look at particular relationships. So there's a few different processes we do during those you know, seven weeks together that help people just feel more free from what's been keeping them stuck, what's been keeping them in emotional pain, and it allows them to move forward in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

That's wonderful. So people feel like do you feel like they leave you and like they've grown tremendously?

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Oh, for sure. Like usually by the fourth week, people look physically different to me. Yeah, just lighter. Yeah, I have a lot of people report like I was suffering with so much anxiety, I was having a hard time getting out of bed, navigating life, and I just I feel lighter.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

That's amazing. And is it always loss and death that causes the grief?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

It's any change. If you think about changing jobs, when I left my profession, there was grief related to that. And there can be conflicting feelings, right? I was really happy to leave and do something new, but I was leaving behind something I had been involved in for 28 years, and I was leaving all my co-workers, so that was like losing a family. So it's any type of change. You think about a divorce, you know, that's a huge change that people go through in their life. Even having children. I mean, your life goes from this period of time where you can do whatever you want, and then all of a sudden you have this little thing that you need to care for, then you love it, right? But there's also just this big transition. So grief really comes from any type of transition or change in our lives that you know creates some emotional conflict inside for us or emotional pain.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yeah, that's a really good point. Because most people don't think of having children as you know, that it could be causing grief. But yes, you are losing a whole bunch of yourself to give to this little person. And yeah, yeah, and that's fair. I think that's fair to acknowledge that change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah, it is. You know, we always look at having children. Most people are like, oh, it's such a happy thing. Well, it is happy, but it can also have some mixed emotions, just like getting married, right? I mean, when we get married, most of us are really happy because we're gonna spend the rest of our life, we hope, with our partner, but we're also giving up what we've known for you know 20-something years, however long.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah, that's that's a really good point. Okay, so you said that before, while you're still nursing, you got into the you became an advanced grief recovery method specialist. So, what did crossover look like for you? Did you start picking up patients or did you do that more for yourself to learn about it?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

So I really, well, I had gone to a personal growth seminar and I met a man who actually is now my fiancee. And so my mom was telling us about this program she went through, the grief recovery method. And she was saying, Oh, this is a great program. And he thought, well, look into it. So he looked into it and then he signed himself up and he signed me up. And he said, Well, I signed you up and paid for it. I said, But I don't have any grief because at that point, even though I was a nurse and you know, I experienced the loss of my patients, I really didn't sit down and think about what grief really is. You know, for most of us, it's that elephant in the room, nobody wants to talk about it. And so I said, Okay, I'll go to this. And within the first hour, I realized, wow, I have experienced a lot of grief, a lot of stuff in my childhood that I'd never known how to process. And, you know, I got to the point where I realized the reason I ended up divorced is because I went into that marriage, to that relationship without healing all these things that had happened earlier in my life that were causing me pain. And so I didn't really know how to navigate a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Sure. Yeah, that's I think that's really significant that we definitely probably have a lot of hidden grief that we don't think about every day. Sure. That doesn't, you know, we don't know affects us, and then you can't give really your whole self to somebody if you're not whole.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

That is so true.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Wow. Okay, that is really cool. Can you uh share some of like those most dramatic changes you've seen in people? Like I know there's privacy, but is there any way you could tell us in some of the most dramatic cases, most miraculous cases that you've seen with changing like the physical health after healing the grief?

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah, like I brought up, you know, people report less anxiety. Like I have worked with clients who said, you know, I just I have so much anxiety, it's hard for me to navigate life with my family, with my spouse, with my children. My I have a hard time putting myself out there, you know, in my career, in other relationships. And then after working through some of this, because like I said, we really look at stuff from our childhood. You know, people are often like, well, why do I need to look at your my childhood? Well, because that's where it all started. That's where we learned how to deal with loss or not deal with it. And so we need to look at those things. So when we start to look at them and peel back the onion and all the layers, it allows us to start to heal. And people just kind of come out of their shell. It's amazing. I mean, I will say in my own life, for years I thought something was wrong. I was like, why don't I feel very happy? Like I have a great job, I have a home, I have a wonderful son, wonderful family. But I just didn't know why I just felt this heaviness until I did this work. And I spent a lot of time, you know, working on myself. I think before we can help anybody else, we have to help ourselves, right? And so when I did that work and I looked at some of the things from my own childhood, like growing up with an alcoholic father and a relationship that was abusive when I was a teenager, and I started to heal those things. I just noticed all of a sudden I felt joy again, like every single day, where before it was missing. And I I thought something was wrong with me. So I've seen like this transition and many other people besides myself. Everyone I've worked with has said it has really shifted things in my life for me. It's allowed me to live again, where for so long I just felt like I was treading water.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Wow. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

And we have to keep healing every day, right? We do, yeah. I mean, our lives are constant, we have constant change. And for most of us, change is pretty uncomfortable. I mean, something like, you know, moving, that's a very uncomfortable thing for most of us because our homes usually, not always, but usually provide us that safe place where we know that we can go and we can just, you know, be comforted, even if it's just by ourselves, right? Because we have our belongings there. And so I always remind people like before you move, walk through all the spaces of your home or your apartment and you know, remember all the things that happened in those different areas because it's a way that we have some completion, like we verbalize, you know, the important things that we remember in this space.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

I like that little ritual. Are there any other rituals that you practice with your clients that you could share with us? Maybe a daily or a weekly little thing just to incorporate into our lives.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Well, I wouldn't say this is a ritual, but this is something I always talk to people about. Two things. One of them is being emotionally honest, because many of us were taught to stuff our emotions. There's a reason there's so much addiction in the world, whether it's alcohol, drugs, social media, shopping, eating, it's because most we numb ourselves because we're hurting and we're pushing all those emotions down. We don't know what to do with them. So I always recommend try to be emotionally honest. Find someone who is a safe person who can be a listening heart. And by listening heart, I mean someone who can hold space for us, like I know you do in hospice, like and just listen. Because most people just want to be heard, they don't want to be fixed, they don't want advice, they don't want to be judged or criticized, they just want to be heard, and it's such a gift to give to others. And I remember, you know, in my nursing career sitting next to people who were at the end of their life and just allowing them to talk. You know, it was so important to them to just speak what was on their heart. So being emotionally honest, being a listening heart for others, those are two things that I recommend everybody incorporate into their life. And it's not easy, you know, we're so used to we listen to respond. And I teach listen to just listen, listen to just hold that space.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

I love that, and it's so hard. We're just like, okay, you're done talking, so I can say what's important now, you know. Yeah, we do a lot of that. Are we even hearing? I know, yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Oh no, so you feel like sharing is one of the most important things we can do to be emotionally, but with safe people, we need to choose people who can be listening hearts, because there's nothing worse than having your heart hurting and sharing it with someone and being told you'll feel better, or oh, I know how you feel because I just suffered from such and such loss. When the truth is that nobody ever knows how we feel, even if like you and I were sisters and we lost one of our parents, we don't know how the other feels because we both had a unique relationship with that parent, and we're unique individuals, right? So it's important that you know we don't say to people, I know how you'd feel what is true is I remember how I felt when I went through such and such, but just to be that person holding space, it's so important, especially in our noisy world today, where everybody has an opinion or advice to offer.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah, no, definitely. So, how we can be a good listener. I definitely have noticed myself as I've been doing some, you know, personal growth practices. I do feel like I've been listening different and responding differently, you know, and I've been trying to be more cautious about my wording to people. And as I'm doing that, just naturally, it's like less and less and less talking. And there's not much to say, really, you know, it's like I'm sorry for your loss. Kind of almost whatever you say is triggering for the people, right? Listening and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Oftentimes I just tell people I'm here for support, you know. And I'm happy to just sit here and listen while you share what's on your heart. You know, one of the heartbreaking things is this is especially related to death, is most of us who lose somebody we love, we want to remember them. We want to talk about them. Maybe not all the time, but we don't want people to stop saying their name or stop bringing them up. But that's often what happens, especially with like spouses or children. And I remind everyone that it's okay to talk about the child or the spouse or whoever the parent that's gone because the griever wants to remember them. And it's important that other people remember them as well.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

I have I have been seeing a lot of people speaking up about that more. I think we're we're not sure how to, you know, how to talk about them. Um our life kind of moves forward and right no longer in it, but the people who are surviving them are just you know living in that pain every day. And and I have noticed, you know, I I lost a a friend and her husband's posting about, you know, it feels good when you mention them.

unknown 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah, because that's the thing. It's like after the memorial, everybody goes home, and then we're just stuck there and oftentimes feel isolated, and no one wants to talk about it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

That's a really good point, and I will work on that too, you know, bring up those people more. I know that I've in my own past have suppressed like the memory of people kind of and I I don't know why, but I don't want to do that anymore. Because then you like in your memory, and it's harder to find harder to find the memories because you've blocked them out for so long, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Because our hearts hurt, so we try to like put them in little compartments, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Yeah, and then it hurts more because you you can't even remember the memories, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, you have to pull them out, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, it's been really good for me to do this because it is kind of making me pull out my own my own griefs and my own ineffective ways of coping. A lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah, I talked to a lot of people about sturbs, short-term energy relieving behaviors. It's those things that we do to feel better in the moment. The problem is they're only short-term.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

And it's not to beat ourselves up, it's just to take notice, like, oh, like I'm I'm drinking like two glasses of wine tonight. Is that just because I'm in celebration, or is that because I'm trying to numb myself because I'm hurting? So when we can reflect on our behaviors. It helps us choose differently.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

So if you if somebody can't find anybody in the moment to listen to, do you have an alternative? Do you promote journaling or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

I think journaling is great. However, I know so many people feel isolated. I mean, I work with individuals all the time that say, I feel like I've haven't had anybody to talk to. So, you know, sometimes it's really hard in life because we have to look at our circle. And we might realize that our circle is not the type of circle we want, because we don't have people who are super supportive and provide that unconditional love. So sometimes we need to make a shift. But I always recommend like people reach out and they, you know, ask for help, even if it's not your social circle, but professional help, because there's a lot of people like myself and others who are there and willing to listen and want to encourage people to be more emotionally honest.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

So, how would you say if somebody's like, well, you're just like a therapist, how would you say that you're different than just a therapist? Oh, yes, get that question all the time.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

So in therapy, we well, I'll use my life as an example. I went to a therapist for a few years and I would just talk and kind of tell the same story many times, but I didn't have any solid concrete tools that helped me move forward. So the grief recovery method is a structured program, and it's, you know, I don't keep people with me for three years. I work with them for like seven or eight weeks. And then if they want to work on other things, then we keep working together. But I'm my job is to give them tools to help them with any kind of change, transition, loss, grief that's happened in the past, the present, or happens in the future. So they have those tools, so they don't need to keep going to therapy for years. So while this is therapeutic, it's not therapy.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Yes, and I think there's something to be said in any healthcare practitioner who has an end date goal like that, you know, we want you to be healthy and move on rather than just continuing to come with us, inevitably. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

I think that's yep. I would agree with that. You know, and something I just thought about because we're both nurses, is that you know, in the healthcare field, I don't know about you, but I didn't have any education on how to deal with my own emotions when I lose my patients. You might in hospice, but I just had to move from one patient to another. And I was working when I first graduated in the trauma ICU. So that came with a lot of loss. And I learned, well, I just need to push it aside, and because my patient next door needs me, they're critically ill. And so until I actually learned how to deal with my grief, I had pushed that all down as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

I I think hospice is a little more gentle and acknowledge the need for that, but it's not enough still. You know, we have like a weekly bereavement meeting where we can talk about cases that really meant a lot to us or say whatever's on our mind and get that off. And I think that's a very good supportive environment to talk on it. And and that but that's it. Yeah. In a nursing school about self-care, and it's hard, it's hard to do that, especially we're moms and yes, we're nurses, and we have our our businesses, and we do so much. And there is our time for self-care. We generally push our self-care needs to the bottom of the list. That is so true. Everything else, everyone else for. So I guess that's where your your journal comes in, right? Your um oh gotta go back to that page. What's your journal called?

SPEAKER_00 26:42

The one I just emotional first aid for the overcommitted woman.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Yes, I think that is crucial.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

I'm starting it today. Yeah, because as women, uh, you're right. Most of us have careers, and we're trying to balance home and our careers and our children and doing it all. It's just it's overwhelming. And the thing that misses out is our nurturing, our self-care that usually gets put last. Many of us learned growing up that it's selfish to take care of yourself, but I always remind people like, without you, what is the world gonna be missing? Yeah, we need to take care of ourselves so we can show up as the highest version of ourselves for other people.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Yeah. I know if I'm having a bad day and I'm grumpy and I got a fight with my husband on the way out, and I yell at my kids because I'm mad at the husband, and then I go to work and I'm like, what good am I? I can't help somebody like this, and you just like are forced in this moment to take 15 seconds to take a breath and recuperate and say, None of that was okay. And it's okay to hold on to and bring into somebody's home that I'm going to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

I think yeah, I tell people if you have to, it's the only way you can get us a few minutes to yourself is go into the bathroom and lock the door. You know, wait for a few minutes.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

And it it's hard. Like, I don't think I've taken a shower alone in four years, you know, with the two young kids. Right. Yes. I know it can be very, very hard, very hard to find the time, but it's so critical. And the more I say it's so hard, the more I'm thinking, like, I need it though.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Yeah, yeah, I would say the majority of us need to spend a little bit more time on self-care. And you know, I always encourage others, don't beat yourself up, like be gentle with yourself, like hold yourself to yes, I need to create some space, but also be gentle because we are all navigating quite a bit in our lives.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Like having the ability to say no.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Oh, definitely setting boundaries. Yeah, what my uh words for the year are so aligned because I found myself involved in a couple projects last year with others that really as they kind of progressed. I was like, this does not align with who I want to be in the world, how I want to show up. And so I had to start saying no and pulling back and setting those boundaries. So that is definitely part of self-care.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah, good. Okay, so I you were talking a lot about the childhood traumas that we have through. Do you have any advice to parents like to help prevent that for the future? You know, I well, one thing I asked the best as parenting.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

So I also help parents in a program that's called Helping Children with Loss. Because, you know, if we think about like our parents do the best that they can with the tools they have at the time. But if they don't have tools to help us navigate changes and transitions, then we just keep passing this on. And so we teach parents how to be emotionally honest with their children because we're the ones that are modeling behavior. And so if our kids see that every time we're upset, we go lock ourselves in the bedroom, or you know, we just say, I'm fine, I'm fine, then that's what they're gonna start to do because they look up to us. So we teach parents how to help their own children and the things that are really helpful to do, and then the things that maybe aren't so helpful. One thing is, you know, replacing a loss. Like a lot of times when kids have a bad day, you know, it's like, well, oh, let's let's give you a cookie, you'll feel better. And while cookie makes kids feel better temporarily, you know, they learn over time that you just need to have a cookie or an ice cream or candy or whatever, and they're gonna feel better, but they actually don't because what they needed was just to talk. You know, they needed to share that, oh, my friend, she pushed me at recess and she said some not nice things to me, or whatever it is. We went into a classroom recently at the beginning of the year where they lost a student, and we just sat and talked to all the kids and allowed them to talk about their friend, and then the tears started flowing, and they're talking about, oh, I lost my dog this summer, I lost my grandpa this summer. And the really beautiful thing was they were allowing their emotions to come out, they didn't stifle them, and then they'd hug each other. And but you know, as we grow up, we stop that we stop talking because we've learned that it's not safe, you know. And even we teach to not hand a Kleenex to somebody when they're crying, because when we hand a Kleenex, oftentimes they stop crying. It's like a symbol of, well, I'm uncomfortable. Well, I'm handing you the Kleenex, wipe your tears and move on. And so, yeah, so it's very interesting that it's hard to be with someone when they're crying and just like not hand them a Kleenex, right? Because it's so ingrained in most of us. But it's wonderful to allow people to just have those tears because those are so healing. Allow them to be present in their emotions and process them versus just pushing them down.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

I know that like I I try really hard not to cry because it's like so annoying. You get all wet and your nose gets wet, and then you just I like personally, I can't stop, but like maybe maybe that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Maybe I don't need to stop, maybe I just need to cry for a while. It is okay, yeah. I mean, look at the reasons, like, we all come up with reasons why we don't want to cry, right? Yeah, because I'll look silly, you know, people are gonna like that. I'm crying, it's gonna make them uncomfortable. I'm gonna be uncomfortable, I'm gonna feel weak. You know, I always tell people expressing your emotions in any way is being brave, it takes courage. Because so many of us walk around just with stone face.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Yeah, I especially I feel like nurses, like we we have to kind of for a certain professionalism and try to you know, hold it together for the family kind of stuff. So we have to find the the I guess the middle ground. Um think of anger as an emotional expression. I've heard that it's like a secondary emotion to something else, usually.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Yeah, usually it's sadness. Yeah, usually it's sadness. There's something underneath that anger.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Do you feel like it adds deeper? Have you okay? So do people come to you? Because I feel like those people who express it as anger are more hesitant to get help than people who are sad and depressed feeling.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Sometimes, yes, but like if I'd say family or friends, loved ones have you know said, you know, you seem really angry. There is there something going on? I'm worried about you, then they will sometimes reach out and get help. But yeah, it's so important to get people off that ledge of the anger and find out what's going on underneath because there's always something. I mean, it may go all the way back to their childhood. They may be experiencing things currently in their life that remind them of feeling like abandoned or unimportant, unheard, unseen, those kind of things. So, yeah, it is very important to get to the deeper emotions that are going on because anger is covering up something else. Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

And is that the same with kids, you think? Like kids who just seem to be more angry. I do, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

You know, I mean, we sadly we label kids who are acting out, and the truth is of the matter is there's something else going on in the majority of the cases, you know, and kids just don't know how to process their feelings, and so for most kids, it feels safer to be angry than to be crying, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:31

What are some things that kids or parents can help kids do, especially younger kids who may not be able to articulate the loss very well? I've started asking my daughter when she's like in a bad mood, like silly questions that seem silly, but like what color is your anger today? And what's your anger's name? And kind of stuff like that. Do you think those are helpful or silly, or do you have any other no?

SPEAKER_00 36:55

I think however you can relate to your child because if that's what gets them to talk, because that's the goal, right? We want them to talk about what's going on inside. Another thing that's helpful when our kids get a little bit bigger is if something happens that affects the whole family, we can say, you know, whatever happened, mommy's heart is really hurting because we lost grandpa, or whatever the loss is, or change, or mommy's heart is really hurting because we have to move. How does your heart feel? Because then they know that we are being the one to go first with the emotional honesty. We're modeling that behavior, so often at times it feels safer if they see us doing it.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Oh, do you feel like kids are resilient? Like I feel guilty as a mom every time if I say the wrong thing or look at the, you know, or if I take all my emotions on them, I'm like, oh no, I ruined them for life. But do you think we can move forward and start now?

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Yes, I do. I don't really, I'll be honest, I don't like the word resilient because I think it for me personally, I think it diminishes our experience. I think kids can definitely pivot just like us. I mean the thing is, is when we start to change, when we start to heal, then everyone else around us sees it and they benefit. So as parents, we all make mistakes. Nobody is perfect. I always say we're uh perfectly imperfect. And our kids know that. And especially if we tell them, like, I'm mommy's sorry, I had such a bad day, and I did not mean to yell at you. I mean, that goes a long way, and it also teaches them that it is okay to apologize because many people grow up and they never want to apologize because that was something that was wasn't modeled to them and it feels uncomfortable. Because if we're apologizing, we must be doing something so bad and we're gonna get punished. But just letting our kids know that we're human, we make mistakes.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Yeah, I have found myself doing that, you know. It feels good like to just be honest with them almost. Oh, I messed up, so sorry. And I think the older generations like we're not you don't apologize to your kids because you're right and they're wrong and you're big and they're small, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yeah, I think the culture is changing, which is really important. I think if we want our children to respect us and to grow up and be amazing adults, we need to model how we would like them to show up in the world. And so by apologizing and you know, admitting that, well how I showed up, I'm not proud of myself, and I'm really sorry.

SPEAKER_05 40:28

Yeah, I think that goes a long way for our kids to see that.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Yeah, I love that story of you going into the classroom. That sounds like it was so profound.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

It's really amazing to be able to witness like children feeling safe to talk about their emotions. Yeah, it really is because you know, as they get older and especially teenage years, that's when kids stop talking. You know, we actually have a 17-year-old in our house, my fiance's son, and he was raised differently. We both have 27-year-olds, and they were pretty much adults before we learned the griff recovery method. The 17-year-old has benefited from it, and he's the kid that everybody comes to in school and talks to because he's that safe space, he listens, and he just provides support for other people in such a loving way, and so when we model that for our children, they then take it out into the world and it creates a ripple effect.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

That's really amazing. I know a kid like that, and he is just so sweet, and he's just like naturally like that because his mom, you know, she's just so laid back, and so he he comes around and he's just really honest with his feelings. And um when you know, when they try to do the seat arrangement at school, everybody picks him, everyone's gonna sit by him, and he just exhumes like peace and friendliness.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

That's wonderful. I mean, if we can teach our kids to be emotionally intelligent, I think that goes a long way in the world today. Yeah, it's a very emotional world, and we need that right now. Yeah, we need kindness and compassion and people who will listen.

SPEAKER_05 42:47

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

So I did I have read through your website and kind of saw the stuff you do, and it seems like you have a lot of different aspects all under the umbrella of grief, and you seem like you have a really holistic approach. Um, do you believe that other things in your life, um, alternative therapies, diet, sunshine, that kind of stuff makes an impact on grief recovery?

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Oh, for sure. You know, I I don't think any of us can heal if you know we're not getting the proper sleep, if we're not trying to eat somewhat healthy, if we're not getting outside and getting some exercise, spending some time in nature, all of these things, meditation, you know, we don't have to do them all, but we have to incorporate some different things in our life that help us be healthy. Because when we're overwhelmed, we don't have enough sleep, we're eating fast food every day, we're never getting exercise, it's very hard to process anything. It's very hard to step out of that space of barely surviving to thriving. When we're not caring for our physical needs.

SPEAKER_05 44:07

I love your slow game.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Surviving to thriving.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

That's what I love to see because I my people I work with feel like they're barely surviving from one loss or change. And I want to get them to a place where they can experience joy again and they can thrive. And they feel like they are lighter and they have the energy to create the kind of experiences and connections they desire in their life.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

I guess do you find that a lot of people feel like guilty, like without their loved one, they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy life kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

So I love that you were brought up the word guilty, because I love to talk about that word. So the definition of guilt is an intent to harm. So most of us go around and say, I feel so guilty because I'm going on with my life and my partner died, or because I yelled at my child, or whatever it is. But I always ask people, did you have an intent to harm them? No. Okay, how about maybe you have a regret? But the word guilt and guilty is a very strong word. So I try to lovingly help people reframe.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

That's almost ironic because the feelings that we consider to be guilt, like the person who actually did have intent to harm probably doesn't feel very good.

SPEAKER_05 46:04

I didn't know that was super interesting.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Isn't it what it's so common in our language to use guilt instead of regret? What do we mean regret again? What do you think we can do to help let go of those feelings of regret?

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Well, first of all to realize that most likely we didn't have an intent to harm someone. And we really I think working on our own healing and the emotional pain we're carrying inside allows us to show up differently in our life. And because we hold ourselves to such high standards that we're always gonna be perfect, that we're never going to, you know, say anything or do anything hurtful. Because that's what we want for our life. But I think allowing ourselves to be human and realizing that we're gonna have bad days, we're gonna have days it's really hard to navigate life. And if we can forgive ourselves and change our behavior and apologize, like we talked about with kids. We can do that with anybody, just apologize. I'm I really apologize. Just I'm having a bad day. I didn't mean to be hurtful towards you. I think that goes a long way. Because I think when we don't communicate those things, that's what really continues to eat at us.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

And changing, like you said, just showing up better in your own life and not making if you can help it, that'll cause any regrets. Right. Cool. Okay, well I have learned so much from you in just the last hour that we've been talking, Don. I'm so excited to work on your worksheet, your workbook. Do you mind telling us just about your how people can reach you?

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Sure. Yeah, my website is donmischellejackson.com and Michelle has one L in it. So you can I have I think like four free gifts on there. I have a bunch of free gifts that I've created, and then some that the Grief Recovery Institute has created. And then I send out an email at least monthly, sometimes a couple times a month, and I'll put like different podcast episodes I'm in, or different things I'm working on, or offers so people can reach me that way. And there's also a place on my website if you want to send me an email and connect that way. I'd love to jump on discovery calls and connect with people. Those are totally free. If something's weighing on your heart and you just want to talk and you want to find out how if I can support you in any way, you know, just schedule a call with me.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Yeah. Perfect. Okay. And so are your books are on your website, right? That's where your landing page is, basically.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yes. Yep. Everything's on my website. And then I I've written a couple books, so those are on my website as well as Amazon.

SPEAKER_05 49:38

Okay, well, I'll definitely put your website in the show notes for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Thank you. Gosh, I really appreciate you reaching out and I appreciate your time. Everything that you do for the world.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Well, thank you. I appreciate what you do for people too. It's really important, the services you offer.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Every day that passes, I'll learn a little more. I'll make something I've never seen before. It's happened, that's attention, I'm human all the time. The things that the me. The nights I travel, the for the life of me. The crown movement under my feet. The places I travel for the people that I meet.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

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