#7 Responsible Business, Culture and the Road to Net Zero – A Conversation with Roxanne Folke

In this episode, Philippa welcomes Roxanne Folke, Head of Responsible Business at Burges Salmon, where she leads the firm's work across sustainability, inclusion, community engagement and pro bono.

Roxanne brings over two decades of experience working with businesses across Europe on sustainability and responsible business strategy, including contributions to research for the UN, the UK government and the World Business Council for Sustainable Development. Since joining Burges Salmon in 2019, she has been instrumental in embedding responsible business into the firm's culture, strategy and client relationships.

Together, they explore what it really means to move from policy to practice when it comes to ESG and sustainability - from measuring carbon footprints and influencing supply chains to building inclusive cultures and equipping leaders to take ownership of the responsible business agenda.

This conversation looks beyond the buzzwords to examine the practical, cultural and strategic realities of making responsible business genuinely transformative - and the leadership required to make it stick.

In this conversation, you'll hear about:

• How Roxanne found her way into responsible business through communications and consultancy, and what drew her to the intersection of commercial strategy and ESG
  
  
• Why responsible business is not a separate agenda but a strategic lens through which the whole organisation should be viewed
  
  
• How the materiality process helps businesses prioritise the ESG topics that matter most - and avoid the scatter-gun approach
  
  
• The practical steps Burges Salmon has taken on its net zero journey, from converting to renewable energy to tackling the complexity of Scope 3 emissions
  
  
• Why engaging and supporting suppliers - rather than simply shutting the door on those who are behind - is essential to collective progress on carbon
  
  
• How client demand for responsible business credentials has grown significantly, from tender processes to ongoing relationship management
  
  
• Why culture is the enabler or the barrier when it comes to embedding change, and what organisations with consultative structures need to watch out for
  
  
• What leaders can do to ensure responsible business is a core strategic priority rather than a bolt-on - including the importance of authentic, consistent advocacy
  
  
• The emerging trends organisations need to prepare for, from advised emissions and mandatory reporting to biodiversity and inclusive leadership
  
  
• Why incoming generations are one of the most powerful forces for change - and why asking responsible business questions in interviews is good advice for anyone
  
  

Key takeaway

Responsible business is not a sideshow or a set of policies gathering dust on a shelf. It is a strategic framework that intersects with talent, profitability, client relationships and long-term risk. Organisations that invest in understanding their impact - and lead authentically on these issues - will be better placed to attract talent, win clients and build businesses that last.

This podcast is intended to be of a general nature, will not be suitable for everyone, and should not be treated as a specific recommendation. We recommend taking professional advice before entering into any obligation or transaction.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

I'm Jenny Bahann, CEO of Paradigm in Orton, and this is Life World's More, where we explore ESG, sustainability, and the future of business. Today I am delighted to be joined by Roxanne Folk, head of responsible business at Virgus Salmon. Roxanne leads the firm's work on sustainability, inclusion, community engagement, and pro bono, ensuring the responsible business is embedded not just in the way that Virgis Salmon operates, but in the way that it partners with clients. And her CV is impressive. She has worked on sustainability projects across Europe, contributed to research for the UN, the UK government, and the World Business Council for Sustainable Development, and is now at the heart of driving one of the UK's leading law firms towards net zero and greater social impact. Roxanne, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I am really looking forward to exploring how you see responsible business evolving, what firms can do to move from policy to practice, and why culture and values matter as much as strategy when it comes to making change stick. Roxanne, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

And yeah, quite quite a lot for us to dig into there, right? So hopefully we can get some useful nuggets out of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

So I I like to start at the beginning. Um so you worked on um sustainability projects outside of law firms uh before joining Virgus Salmon. How did you get into it and what sparked your interest?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

So I mean, I I don't really think that my job was a job when I started working, if that makes sense. So I I sort of I knew I was interested in business and business strategy and innovation. I wasn't too sure what I wanted to do. So I thought kind of comms might be an area that I can I can sort of start off in. So that's where I started my career, but almost immediately started working with businesses that were innovating in one way or another, um, trying to kind of change their markets by addressing environmental or societal needs. Um, really interesting organizations to work with because they were developing new technologies, they were trying to prove case, they were trying to prove what the kind of the market was for what they were developing. Um I started to see these common themes about uh how these businesses were operating that A, you know, they really needed to be able to understand data and to be able to understand how to translate their kind of passion and what they knew about their products to the average kind of layperson within the market to be able to be successful as a business. But also the fact that they were addressing these kind of emerging uh kind of topic areas like uh kind of carbon or diversity and inclusion, um, you know, was really giving them something quite different and interesting to be able to kind of utilize to deliver their products to market as well. So I sort of slowly transitioned essentially across to what is now known as responsible business and thought I'd really love to help businesses in all sectors actually understand what these topics are and how they can best be harnessed, both for market value, but also for addressing those needs that you know, the kind of the big ESG topic areas out in our communities, um, and and for uh kind of developing workplaces that were much richer for people to work in as well. So that's how I kind of snaked my way through, I suppose, to responsible business. So you hadn't worked in a law firm before? Actually, before joining Virgis Alman, I hadn't no, I'd spent sort of 20 years or so working for large multinationals doing consultancy work. So I would hop into a business for maybe um 12 months, 18 months with a particular brief. Uh, you know, it could be we need to set up a responsible business strategy, we need to be able to take something really clear and well articulated to a board as to why we want to be doing these sorts of things, help us develop that, help us take that into that room and get those conversations heard, and help us then, you know, kind of embed that into our organization. So I was working across quite a few different sort of sector spaces. Um, so yeah, law was new to me actually in 2019, um, but I think that variety of experience across different countries and different businesses actually really helped me understand obviously what a law firm does because that represented a lot of our clients, um, but also helped me understand how I can sort of embed within an organization that is essentially all about people. You know, all we have as an organization are incredibly talented individuals. How do we harness those individuals around responsible business to deliver for community for people and also for clients as well?

SPEAKER_01 4:42

So talk to me about being head of responsibility responsible business in a law firm. And you've spoken there about bridging internal culture and uh client work. What is it that you actually do?

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah. Well, I mean, to start responsible business is incredibly broad. It's like a huge suitcase of topics that are some of them are related, some of them are not. I mean, if you look at ESG as a label, I mean, no wonder most people can't understand what it is and what we're talking about because we're going to everything from net zero and carbon through diversity, you know, pro bono, community engagement, human rights, modern slavery, it's all sort of shoved in this big sack of uh you know issues that we want to be able to understand and address. So I think that fundamentally the role of a head of responsible business is to have that kind of landscape overview, you know, which of these topic areas do we really need to understand as a business? Which do we have a responsibility, either on a very basic level in terms of legislation and regulation, but more likely in terms of how we want to sort of put ourselves forward as an organization, how we want to innovate, where we want to be in our market, we need to understand those different topic areas, where they're going to, what our people and our clients and our communities think about them as well, and to then be able to kind of overlay a recommended kind of best practice approach that we can take to the business and help help you know busy leaders in organizations that are constantly evolving and you know with with very high pressure roles themselves, kind of help them understand what these things are and what we might want to do in that space. So it's very, very broad. Um, I know that there are kind of different types of roles in other organizations, some more environmentally focused, some more social focused. Actually, there's a lot to be said for having a role that oversees it all because there are clear interlinks between them. Um and in terms of a link between culture and client, it's very clear actually to us sort of how that works. Um, because as I've mentioned, you know, we we're essentially a people business. We bring skills and expertise within the legal sector, um, but it's about individuals working with one another, it's about trusted relationships. And what we've certainly seen in recent years is that our clients are very, very interested in working with law firms that have that expertise, that you know have that best practice approach on the legal side, but also organizations where values align, where culture is similar, you know, they are increasingly seeking out businesses that sort of operate through the same um kind of ethical framework almost, because they're seeing value in that alignment and what we can do together in a broader sense. Um, and so that's where the client bit kind of comes in. Um, and the internal culture helps us deliver all of those different areas because we need the whole business to engage to be able to actually make meaningful progress.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

So, are you working direct with the partners, the fee earners, or are you do you work direct with the with the clients themselves?

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Those are both actually. So, um, with our role or our team, um we report directly into the senior partner. So he's sort of the lead advocate for responsible business, he chairs our board as well, he chairs our responsible business committee. So you can see that kind of direct connection between responsible business and then firm and firm strategy. Um, we're constantly having conversations about what needs to be drawn up into sort of firm strategic approach, um, you know, what needs to be set as a sort of a firm-wide business objective rather than something in responsible business strategy or sort of further down within the organization. Um so very much working with the partnership because obviously the partners are the owners and the leaders of this business. So we need to be constantly consulting with them to see where do they want us to sort of seat this agenda and how do they see interacting with the different service areas that they deliver and the specialisms that they have. Um, so yeah, it it does very much kind of sit in that space. Um, and then more broadly, it's about engaging and sort of harnessing the insights and the passion that our people have to be able to deliver. But we do a fair amount of work actually. I'm very fortunate to have a sort of responsible business team, um, and we do a fair amount of work directly with clients because they they're facing the same challenges that we're facing, you know, they're scratching their heads about net zero trajectories, they're scratching their heads about diversity statistics and how do we, you know, sort of slowly change our representation uh in a way that's meaningful. Um, and because we do quite a lot of sort of transparent um external reporting in responsible business, kind of putting out there every year what have we done, what's worked, what's been more challenging. We find clients who are actually coming to us fairly frequently and just sort of saying, can we just have a bit of time to talk about how you've developed ethnicity pay gap reporting or how you get 50% of your people out volunteering each year? I just want to know the kind of the mechanics of how that works. And so my team will be spending time with clients on some of those areas as well as doing um direct um kind of um collaborative pieces. Um, so whether that's looking at a particular topic or kind of going out into communities together. Um, so yeah, we find that actually as a sort of a value add piece for clients, it's it's really sort of growing as an area of of interest and importance to them as well, aside from you know, kind of the core work that we do for the business.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah, I mean it's so it's so interesting that it's it's spreading so rapidly outside of, you know, can you write me a contract or can you buy me a business or whatever into can you help us be a better business? I love that. So and so moving into that a bit more uh uh deeply, a lot of firms talk about ESG, they talk about diversity, they talk about sustainability. But I agree with you, I think it's really hard sometimes in practice when you are juggling all of those balls of you know, uh people issues and profitability and bringing in new clients and compliance and regulation and service and and and everything. So you joined Burgess Salmon in 2019. How did you go about um embedding that kind of sense of responsibility, if you like, into the DNA of Burgess Salmon?

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yeah, and it's interesting actually, all of the topics that you've just mentioned there, the sort of the things that are on leaders' minds within law firms also have direct links into responsible business in terms of what we can do to unlock some of those, or actually barriers that we might inadvertently put in place if we don't get things right. So thinking about people issues, you know, talent acquisition, it's huge for particularly emerging talent coming into our business at the moment, for them to see clear, robust evidence of our approach to carbon or our approach to diversity. You know, they're not just kind of looking for warm words in a leadership video somewhere, they're really going and analysing, you know, what are you reporting on, how are those numbers changing? And I'm going to ask you questions about this in my interview to make sure I'm joining a business that that's values are aligned with mine. Um, thinking about profitability, for example, you know, we're quite a rapidly growing firm at the moment, and that has very interesting implications in terms of responsible business, in terms of carbon, you know, how do we structure ourselves, but also we're making decisions about uh, you know, the kind of the spaces that we have, the kind of the physical locations that we need, etc. Um, and actually thinking about topics like um carbon or environment or travel, overlaying those sorts of aspects in those decision-making spaces will help us to make smarter decisions actually about what the kind of the impact down the road is going to be on cost and profitability as well. Um, so yeah, so come coming into the organization, um I've actually sort of been promoted up into this role. So I was originally coming in underneath the head of responsible business that I think she was hired in maybe two years previously, and that's the first time that role had been developed within the firm. Um so we needed to essentially kind of look at this big map of different topic areas and say, well, what matters? How can we prioritize what we do, and how can we use data and evidence to back that? So there's sort of a process that's known in our space, which is called materiality, and that's essentially using bits of research to help identify which responsible business topics do we have the biggest impact on, and which topics impact us the most as an organization. And you do that by a bit of market research, by a bit of speaking to clients, you know, um surveying your own people and kind of drawing together all these different evidence pots. But what it then gives you is a clear prioritization of you know, here are the five issues that really matter the most for you to dig into as a business. Here are topics that you want to do well in and kind of keep a bit of a watching brief, and here are areas that you know you don't need to kind of put a lot of investment and time and resource. And I think to be able to work through a process like that really allows you to kind of have a bit more of a laser focus of where you need to be operating and also how you can use the airtime within your own organization with your board, with your leadership teams to talk about the things that matter most and use data to kind of bring in and evidence that as well. Um, otherwise, you end up with a bit of a well-intended sort of scattergun approach to responsibility as an organization that you know is is coming from the right place more often than not, but isn't necessarily delivering impact or tangible change because you're sort of just grasping at lots of different things and hoping that they're going to stick. Um, so that was sort of the initial approach, I suppose, was to kind of use that uh research um kind of process to be able to really prioritize so that we could focus in on actually sort of a five-year strategic plan as to where we wanted to be rather than uh a reactionary approach to what's the latest trend in responsible business or what are our clients shouting about, you know, loudest. Um so that was the initial approach.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Um and one of those presumably was net zero for Burgess Salmon. Yeah. And so and so give us some some more practical steps around, you know, what you what you did, for example, around net zero. I I just think as a listener to a podcast like this, I really I just I would really want to have some valuable actually. What did you actually do to get yourself towards net zero?

SPEAKER_02 15:11

So the usual net zero caveats that I feel that we need to say at the beginning of these conversations are that we are not there yet. And like like many other organizations, we're on that decarbonisation journey. We don't have all of the solutions in place. So we're struggling very hard to understand what we need to do and to get there, but like lots of organizations, it's it's it is a journey. Um, but what we the the practical things that matters the most or had the biggest impact for us, I suppose, was A to really understand the data. And I think for us at the time, we needed to go external and to get really good external advice about what our carbon footprint was in different spaces. Um and I would certainly say in responsible business, don't ever be shy to go and find really excellent experts outside your organization that can help you with that understanding because you can't, with all of those different topic areas we talked about, you can't be a technical expert in all of those things all at the same time. So find someone who can really help you understand what that impact is. So for us, that meant you know, understanding scope one and scope two, really digging into scope three, most professional services firms will find that the bulk of their emissions are in scope three. So that's your supply chain, it's the products and services that you're purchasing. Um, and then you know, also starting to understand, for example, scope four and advised emissions. I think that's an area that is going to open up over the next few years and the clients will be more interested in. So that's sort of part of the agenda as well, which is how how do we understand what this is? Um, so that when clients are coming to us and asking us about the uh kind of the carbon footprint of the work we deliver, will we be able to have an answer at that point? But thinking about practical steps, um, we um did things like making sure that all of our offices were converted to 100% renewable energy use. So, you know, that scope one and scope two piece, it's that's directly within our control, um, carbon in that space. So let's start to decarbonize the chunks of that. So using renewable energy. Um, most office buildings are going through retrofit and improvement processes over a number of years anyway. So making sure we're building in the decarbonisation in, you know, if we're installing new HVAC systems or we're thinking about how spaces are used and kind of lit and um using sensors, you know, all of the really kind of practical technical stuff that you can work on to decarbonize that scope one and scope two. Then you look at, then you start to realize as a business, oh, scope three, that's actually really the the big space that we need to operate in here. What do we what do we do there? And again, it opens up a whole research area. First of all, you need to know do you actually have an accurate picture of what carbon looks like in your supply chain? Can be very hard to get hold of because lots of suppliers, you know, you'll be working with everyone from huge multinationals like Microsoft down to tiny SMEs who are delivering a service in your local community. You can't just go and ask them the same question around carbon because you're gonna completely scare the hell out of that small SME or put undue pressure on them to try and think, oh God, I'm gonna have to try and figure this out. And actually, probably the huge multinationals might not necessarily be that interested in giving you that bit of data, but you can find it a different way. So you have to do another kind of piece of analysis around you know what's going on in that space, and that can help you then again, this it's about prioritization, figure out what that layer of suppliers looks like that has a significant carbon impact that you can help influence and change, and then you start to do practical things like looking at your procurement process, how are you um weighting things like ESG metrics in your procurement process to be able to select suppliers that are more likely to be on that decarbonisation journey? And also, how can you work with existing suppliers to help educate and help their understanding around what carbon is and what they need to do as well? I'm very um sort of passionate about the fact that it's not just shutting the door on suppliers that aren't working for you, but trying to work alongside them to, you know, to for us all to kind of help get to where we need to be. Um so there has been a lot of practical stuff along the way, um, and I think there's going to need to be that continued level of focus and effort and reiteration, you know, that um carbon is constantly being sort of better understood and redefined in terms of how it's measured. So you're never done with your measurement, you're constantly sort of thinking what needs to change here. So, yeah, it's going to be just one of the biggest topics that businesses need to need to focus on really in the next 10-15 years. And it's going to be a constant stream of hard work and some headaches along the way to figure out what we need to do, I suspect.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah. Yeah. I and I think that that scope three question that you sort of so eloquently explained there around you know, asking questions down the supply chain. Um I I I'm really interested in uh uh how effective that can be because a firm like Burgess Salmon going to a supplier, asking those questions, I would imagine they would be seeking to to to work with you to to do better around their carbon emissions. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing the people that you work with really trying to do more in that space as a result of you getting involved in asking those questions?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah, I think they're getting asked the questions from enough different angles now that they know that you know, obviously it depends on the business. Some are just really passionate about wanting to do it anyway, others will just, you know, naturally sort of want to do probably less based on client need. So yeah, we're definitely seeing that they're that they're sort of keen to do more. And in the SME space, you know, they they're keen to to understand and to change, but they also feel very overwhelmed and a bit vulnerable in the sense that you know these questions are quite often being asked by different clients, asking for different metrics with different reporting periods, and they're thinking, how am I supposed to provide this information alongside keeping my business running? Um, and so I think what the responsibility that we have as as bigger businesses is to think what's already out there that we can plug into so that there's at least some consistency in terms of what these businesses are being asked for. So, you know, what's the standard kind of benchmarks? What what tools are lots of other organizations using that we can say, can you also provide your data through this tool rather than I'm gonna send you a bespoke spreadsheet and you're gonna have to spend a lot of time scratching your head figuring that out and filling it out. So I think we do have sort of a responsibility to try and make this as easy as possible. For our supply chain, um, because it can be hard if you're a smaller business and this is the world that you're having to spend more time on.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I hadn't properly th thought about that, but uh yeah, I can see if you've got uh different people asking you different questions all the time, that that can be pretty tricky. But uh moving away from um Net Zero a little bit, um you also, as you were explaining, have this big suitcase full of things that you're responsible for, including inclusion, community, pro bono. I mean, I can see uh, you know, you you went through that materiality process and uh worked out you know where you might have um impact and and what has impact on you. Where how did you decide that? Because impact means different things to different people, and impact from a carbon perspective is different from impact from a community perspective. How do you even go about balancing out those those potentials?

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah, so I think you have to start with the overarching topic. So I think when we were doing that prioritization, you know, we would we would utilise um processes of engagement that we already have so that we're not sort of adding too much extra weight onto the business. So things like employee surveys, we run those annually anyway. So let's make sure in those surveys where you've got questions on diversity and inclusion, we've got questions on responsible business, with that we try as much as possible to understand what are we doing well and where do our people feel the gaps are, or where are the uncomfortable truths that you know we haven't unearthed yet that we need to understand to realise sort of where the gaps are. Um we do client listening sort of programs. So, how again do we sort of weave in some of these uh conversations or some of these questions into those programs already so that we're getting a constant feed from our clients on what topics matter most to them. Um, and then you know, let's invest in going out and talking to some of our community partners, charities that we work with, you know, those sort of community groups that surround us to understand a bit more about what their needs are and you know what they would like to see from organisations like ours. And and then you can sort of at least sort of identify the themes that you need to work on and do that prioritization. Then, as you quite rightly point out, the next step down from that is well, how do we we we feel we know where we are now, let how do we set an ambition and use measures to define if we're getting there or not? Um, I suppose that's where the responsible business kind of skill set can come in, you know, really having your head submersed in this space constantly, constantly hearing others talking about how they're measuring an impact. There are lots of really good external organizations out there that can help guide and give best practice as well. I would certainly give a shout out to organisations like Business in the Community who have a whole kind of arm of their organization, which is helping corporates and businesses understand like best practice approaches to addressing these topics, what to measure, how to get there, and also sharing case studies on how others have done it. Um, so I find that sort of space really, really useful because it's cross-sector as well. You don't want to be too navel-gazing as a law firm or professional services outfit outfit, you want to understand what's going on in the wider world. It can be very easy to do so. You have to understand what's going on in the wider world. Um, so that can help you understand metrics and ways of measuring things. Um, and then it's about that constant sort of understanding how do we collect data, how do we collect good data to understand uh you know what that progress looks like. Um, and then from my perspective, how do we be as transparent as possible in reporting on that in the public domain so that you know anyone who's interested in what we're doing can go and have a look and see how we've progressed, you know, what has worked, where we have fallen over and what we're planning on doing about it as well. And I think that's the kind of the final link in that chain is that our people, our clients, our charities that we work with need to be able to see that to have confidence in the fact that we're addressing this topic in the right way.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

So, how do you how do you go about finding those measurements of success? Albeit I love the fact that you just spoke about failure there. Actually, that just warms my heart as a CEO of a business thinking, gosh, there are so many things you just try so hard and it doesn't work, and you have to go back to it. So I love the fact that you go out and talk about that. But but in terms of measuring success, how do you go about measuring that?

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Um, so I think it depends on the topic. Uh, obviously, if we're looking at something like net zero, then we're trying to understand you know our carbon footprint, but we're also looking that at that in comparison to, for example, the size of business that we are, because as I said, we're growing quite rapidly, uh, but carbon is normally measured in absolute terms and absolute reduction. So that's a really interesting space to be in. That you know, we have this kind of downward trajectory that we're working towards, but actually, as a business that's getting bigger with more people and more operations, those two things don't, you know, are kind of bumping heads on a fairly regular basis. Um, in terms of aspects such as the uh diversity and inclusion, we're looking to those sort of UK wide best practice measures of not just you know um diversity representation against different characteristic areas, but things like attrition rates, things like promotion rates, um, how long do people, how long are people staying at your organization, and critically some of those people survey factors that I mentioned earlier. How are people feeling about working within your organization? If you can ask some of those quite pointed questions about whether they feel included within their teams, whether they feel comfortable to speak up in meetings and and kind of decision-making spaces, uh, whether they feel they have the support of their managers and their line managers to progress and then start to analyse that data by diversity characteristic, you really start to get an understanding of what's going on in your organization and where some of the blockers and barriers are to be able to unlock greater representation within your organization. So it varies fairly significantly depending upon the topic that you're looking at, but you have to sort of distill that down and say, here are a few key metrics in each area that we're going to track, which will give us an understanding of our progress. Um, and this is what we're going to talk about internally and get our people familiar with and get our leaders familiar with, and this is what we're going to talk about externally as well. Um, so yeah, I suppose there's probably not a really neat answer of the five things that you need to measure to be able to make sure you're nailing responsible business. But if you've if you've worked on that parallelation process of issues at least, you know you're not trying to do that across 40 different topic areas. You're probably trying to, you know, really focus that in on maybe five key issues, um, which might make it a bit more manageable to kind of go through that discovery process.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

And I mean, I can understand, I can understand that kind of self-um awareness or pride thing around achieving these metrics and saying we are a business who cares about this. But how much do your clients actually care about this? Are they are they testing you on these issues? How much are they feeding back to you saying, do you know we've come to you because you do this rather than another law firm that that isn't so dedicated to this area?

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Yeah, absolutely. So I I think I have seen since joining in 2019 a sort of a general upward curve of clients both showing interest in this space but also being quite savvy about the questions that they're asking and the evidence that they're looking for from law firms to measure whether we're actually doing what we say that we're doing, if that makes sense. So that comes through to us in a number of different ways. It's questions and evidence in tender processes, it's what we're being asked when we go in to pitch, it's questions that we're being asked, or bits of data that we're being asked for in kind of ongoing reporting with our with our clients, you know, once we are kind of in contact with them, um, what we're being asked to do through kind of customer relationship meetings, those individual kind of one-off requests that we mentioned earlier about can we link up on this or should we work together on that? Um, and I've you know we've really seen the volume of that increase quite significantly. Also, because we do work in the public sector, social value has really grown as a theme that professional services firms need to understand and address as well. So that's directly linked between client delivery and community impact. You know, what are you going to do above and beyond what you already do as a law firm to meet particular community needs that we're going to define, and how are you going to measure and track and report that? So there's that sort of, you know, it's stitched into the client delivery at that public sector level. But even on the private sector side, we we do find a lot of businesses wanting to make sure they're making the right choice of law firm based on some of these responsible business criteria. There will naturally be, you know, clients who are less interested in this space, and that's absolutely fine. You know, we will find that that variety is quite natural. Um, but we're certainly seeing it much more intertwined kind of you know, client um client need and uh a need to demonstrate an approach around responsible business that's authentic and measured, it's it's it's closely linked now. Um, and so part of what my team does is being able to provide that evidence and to provide those relevant benchmarks or kind of bits of uh information that the clients need to have that confidence in selecting the right the right supplier and the right partner to work with.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Yeah, I mean, so in the same way as you're going out to your suppliers saying, Can you give us this information? You're finding people do do that with you. And what is interesting, I think, is when you spoke earlier about recruiting and um young people coming into the industry and and asking these questions and clients asking these questions. I mean, do you think more people should be asking these questions of more companies? It's not something that necessarily people do as a natural um as a natural thing, or would think that they would have the right to ask any companies, but do you think more people should be?

SPEAKER_02 32:29

I very much think so. And actually, when um I quite often talk to um young people coming into the business, either thinking about their first kind of career steps or just kind of giving them a bit of an overview of what responsible business is and why we focus on it as an organization. And one of the bits of advice I give them at the end is have these questions ready when you go to an interview, because even if you're not interested in uh the environmental approach or carbon or diversity and inclusion as topic areas, actually digging into this a little bit and asking some of these questions gives you a really good indication of how a business is going to treat you as an employee because it's about are they investing in their workforce? Are they do they care about respect and equality and you know the fundamentals of what we will expect, you know, as an employee kind of going into that organization? Are they able to innovate? You know, is there is there kind of their management and the leadership teams? Are they thinking about kind of broader issues rather than just the mechanics of kind of growth and what's going on within the sector? It can give you so many interesting insights into how that business operates sort of strategically and also from a culture perspective that will probably play out in what your experience is like once you've joined that organization. So I think it can be quite an effective tool to kind of scratch underneath the surface of a business and and and sort of see what it might be like to work there, which obviously is a huge part of you know our experience as as employees. Um so yeah, I think it's more of us should be asking questions whether we're really passionate about different aspects of responsible business or not.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah, I I mean I think if I interviewed a young person that was asking me about our approach to sustainability, I I actually think I'd be pretty impressed with the with the thought process. But I suppose that takes us nicely into culture. You were talking about culture there and how culture within a business can help embed or get in the way of um, you know, have you seen where culture has either helped embed that sustainability EST responsible approach or or held it back? What what sort of cultures help and and which sort of cultures don't? I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

I can probably give you two two examples, one each way, of of where it can help and where it can hinder if that if that's useful. So, and I think you know, this is sort of from my time working within the legal sector as well and working with Burgess Salmon. So the first example is some of that work that we were doing around net zero and carbon and wanting to, you know, wanting to move to 100% renewable energy across our sites, wanting to invest in high-quality carbon offsets, actually, which isn't you know it's not a solution to net zero, but we were essentially going to the firm and saying, whilst we figure this stuff out and we get there, we want to be able to invest in something really meaningful within the UK that's working in this space at the same time. Um and that's a big ask, actually, of a business to say, can you spend a significant amount of money on uh kind of nature and biodiversity projects within the UK? You don't have to spend, you're not being mandated to do this, but it's a reflection of our commitment in that space while we get our house in order and whilst we do all of that kind of harder long-term work over a period of time. Um, and I think a cultural element that has helped us get the right decisions in those spaces has actually been that our people sort of uh when they're bringing uh different ideas or different perspectives, they are they're sort of listened to. You know, we've got a really good, kind of fairly kind of flat structure within the organization and an open door policy that people feel the confidence that they are allowed to sort of bring these different perspectives and different ideas, and then they are also allowed, you know, that precious time to be able to develop them, to kind of go off and start a side project and explore a little bit what this might look like, how could it work? Let's do some research, let's put a paper together, etc. Um, even though it's not necessarily something that's in their job title, it's something that they have raised, they're being listened to and they're being facilitated to be able to explore what that might look like for the organization. So that's one positive example of how culture can actually really help sort of remove some of the barriers to change and allow you to innovate and move forward. And I think conversely, um probably an example of how a barrier can be put in place is I think because of the type of culture that we have, we are quite a consultative organization. Um, and obviously we're a partnership as well, right? So we've got you know 120 plus partners, all who are really sort of have different views and are interested in different aspects of responsible business as an agenda. Um, so what can sometimes be more difficult within a partnership structure and within a culture that is quite consultative is being able to come to a decision quickly about an approach that you want to take. Because you know, the um sometimes the kind of the natural tendency is to think, well, actually, we need to go and consult this group, we need to go to this employee resource group over there, we need to go to this partnership group over here, and you know, spend six months kind of going around and getting as many views from as many different angles as possible before we then kind of go down to you know making a decision, um, which some of that consultation absolutely does need to happen, but how much and what the volume is before you then say, no, we've got confidence in this approach, you know, we've got good advice, we understand where we want to go, let's go forth and make it happen. Um, so that's probably you know two examples of how culture can either sort of unlock uh innovation and change in this space, but also can sometimes sort of inadvertently get in the way of moving things at the pace that you might need to. Um, and I think that's probably something I've learned actually stepping into professional services for the first time, that these structures are quite different and you need to be able to operate in a different way to be able to sort of build confidence, but also come to some firm sort of you know project deliverables and and and change as well. So um, yeah, it can it can make an awful difference.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah, I mean, managing and all for the right reasons, right? I mean, that that wasn't because um and that hierarchy of values, you know, one of our values is that we talk about things, we allow people to ask questions, to have views, but not everybody is uh gonna agree with each other, and not everybody has the experience or the expertise, I suppose, to be able to see the pitfalls and the benefits of things. Um yeah, that's uh that's really interesting. Um so so I guess it come does that come down to leadership then? I mean, how how how what can leaders do differently to ensure that responsible business um responsible business is is more than a more than a bolt-on, more than a nice title, more than a than a beautifully crafted piece of the mission statement. What can they actually do?

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Um, I think probably the first thing that they need to do is to understand that this is part of their remit and not not sort of a side project that if they have the luxury to be able to dip it into it, they can do. I think by understanding sort of as quickly as possible just how much this will affect market, client work winning, talent access acquisition, etc., leaders can realise, oh, this is this is really sort of a component of what we need to consider and understand as you know, as a firm or as an organization, and the strategy that we develop to be able to be successful in the way that we want to. So I think that's the first bit. And then what comes down after that is being able to devote a bit of time to be able to upscale on some of the key, the key elements. You know, we're not expecting our our leaders and our board to be the technical experts in net zero, in diversity and inclusion, in you know, whatever the topic might be, but we do expect them to have sort of a good level of understanding as to what these issues are, and we will bring those insights, but also we need to be able to ask for the time to be able to bring those insights as well. So I think what they can do is is you know invest that time in understanding what these issues are and how it impacts their organization. And you can you can very much look at that, you know, not as a sort of a responsible business evangelist or a champion, but looking at the basics of risks and opportunities and markets, it you know, you'll get the information that way as much as you will if you're full of passion and kind of ethical drive around these topic areas. Um so understand how it interacts with your organization and that will tell you, you know, how you need to how you need to lead essentially, how you need to develop a sort of strategy and approach to be able to address the the issues. And then I think a lot of it is about um sort of advocacy. So it's about you know your leadership team for your organization stepping out, talking to your employees and your people about these topic areas on a regular basis. I mean, we find within our organization our leaders are mentioning responsible business aspects in all of our firm-wide bulletins. There's a big section on it at our AGM. You know, whenever they have a chance to stand up and speak, this is normally a component of what they're speaking about. Um, and that then sort of radiates out across the organization and kind of gives other people license to take this seriously as well and to work on their piece. Um, and then for that advocacy to then be happening on an external level as well. So, you know, the comms that we do, the kind of the way that we're getting our voice out to market to be included there as well. And I think if you're thinking about the journey of a leader, you're going to need to do that understanding piece and that education piece to then be able to authentically and confidently talk about it, you know, sort of in front of internal or external stakeholders. So yeah, I think it's, you know, it's it's understanding that this isn't just a little side pet project anymore. It's it's really the fundamentals of how your business is operating and the way that environment, carbon, uh, you know, kind of talent markets are evolving, unless we have a proper understanding of what this is and how it's going to impact us, we're going to lose market share and we're going to not, you know, not be a successful organization in five, 10, 15 years' time. So it's a really critical area for leaders to address.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. Um, so what are the what are the sort of emerging trends around a responsible business that uh firms, law firms, and their clients probably need to be getting to grips with? You were talking about educating yourself there. What are those emerging trends at the moment, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_02 43:29

So I think um specifically in in sort of professional services, we kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier, but that that kind of scope for that advised admissions piece, I think is slowly emerging out. Uh, you know, how do we as uh a sector or an industry quantify the kind of the carbon and the environmental impact of the advice that we give to clients? Um, I think that's something that is only going to become kind of more important for us to understand and to kind of have a view on as a professional. Rather than trying to do it individually. I think that space in particular is all about collaboration. It's about how do we get together as an industry and define a kind of a unified approach to this that we can then kind of put out to clients and to market. So I think that space is going to be quite critical. Thinking more broadly, the carbon piece is just, it's it's it's very much on the horizon now. It's not something that is sort of, oh, well, we need to get that sorted in 30, 40 years' time. You know, people's uh kind of interim commitments around net zero are kind of coming up in 2030. Uh, you know, sort of um 100% reduction commitments are coming up in 2040, 2045, 2050. It's it's much smaller timescales now. And so that piece about decarbonising your business, but also decarbonisation of your supply chain is going to just continue to grow as a topic that we need to address. I think nature and biodiversity is a really interesting area actually that has evolved. Um, and having been through a recent materiality process for our business, one that a lot of our clients were mentioning. They were talking about um kind of you know the biodiversity crisis being as important as the climate crisis, and you know, what are we doing as a business in that space to be able to meaningfully contribute to those topics? Um, and I think that will be uh kind of an area that businesses will need to get more familiar with and understand well, what are our impacts at the moment, either directly through sites that we have, through infrastructure, um, through products or services that we buy, but also how can we effectively collaborate with different groups kind of within our communities, within our local areas to meaningfully sort of you know work on positive change in that space too. Um, so I think that's a theme that lots of businesses have haven't really quite wrapped their head around. Like, you know, if we don't have outdoor spaces or you know, huge infrastructure, how am I supposed to be tackling this as an issue? But we've certainly seen a kind of a growing trend in that space. Um, and then I think sort of the the kind of the diversity and inclusion side will continue to be a focus for organizations. Obviously, there's lots of interesting geopolitical uh views and changes, but I think fundamentally it's about how do we actually find and attract really good talent as an organization, and I think that's that's very much about organizations thinking of you know, do we need to change the way that we train our managers and our leaders? Like, do we have inclusive leadership as a core component of how we develop our people? Um, because I think a lot of the work around diversity and inclusion has been about how you get people into organizations, but then it's how do you also then retain that talent? Do you have the right culture, the right behaviours, the right structures to be able to be able to keep those talented individuals within the business once you've hired them in? Um, so a couple of different kind of theme areas there that I think are evolving, and also changes to sort of some of the landscapes as well around mandatory reporting in the EU, consultation going on in the UK around reporting um in relation to responsible business. There's probably going to be a lot more structure around what businesses need to be able to report upon in this space, and I think that businesses need to be ready to be able to address that because it's coming down the track sooner rather than later.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Good stuff. Such a lot to think about, isn't it? Such a lot to think about. So if you could issue just one challenge, if that's the right word, to the business leaders who are listening to this today about sustainability or social impact, what would that one challenge be?

SPEAKER_02 47:46

I think it has to be something focused around net zero and carbon at this point because I think it's a topic that lots of organizations are just a bit worried about how they how they engage. So I think the challenge is can you either through your internal resource or through some external expertise, really pin down what your what your carbon picture looks like as an organization and help just sort of prioritize and figure out where are the key areas underneath that that you need to be able to dig into to be able to get yourself on that suitable net zero trajectory. I think that there's so many different topics that businesses can kind of look to focus on. I suppose perhaps maybe a side challenge might be: are you genuinely speaking to your people and your clients about these topics to find out what matters to them? As I mentioned earlier, there are lots of different kinds of communication and engagement methods that you may already be using within your business for other kind of bits of research or to get other bits of information. Can you add a bit of responsible business thinking into those so that you can start to identify the issues that actually may well become quite critical for your organization over the next five to ten years to give you that heads up as to where you might need to be focusing your time? Um, so yeah, a bit around that just sort of continuation of focus on net zero, and then how do we use consultation to help us prioritize as well?

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Great challenges. Thank you. All right, we are coming towards the end of the podcast. I have loved chatting to you, Roxanne. Thank you. I'm gonna finish with some quick fire questions. So if you could answer these questions in one or two sentences, let's give it a go. All right, one myth that you would bust around EST or sustainability?

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Um that it is uh just sort of a separate agenda that you can turn up and turn down. Actually, it's basically firm-wide strategy, it's it's the strategic approach of your organization just looked at through a slightly different lens.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Excellent. What gives you the most hope about the future of uh responsible business?

SPEAKER_02 50:02

I just think the the absolute wealth of individuals coming into organizations like ours now who just are naturally passionate about this, that want to see businesses doing proper, meaningful, measured work, um, and that actually are not really willing to take no for an answer in terms of the employers that they work for. And I think that flow of kind of younger generations coming into organizations will naturally affect quite significant change over time, and I'm really excited to see it.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Excellent. And lastly, how do you recharge outside of all these a million things that you are dealing with and responsible for and driving forwards? What do you do outside of work?

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Oh, I think going and spending time in in nature, and you know, I've got sort of a young, a young family at home, and so I think being able to go and yeah, just spend time outside, you know, we're all uh professional services people spend a lot of time on laptops, a lot of time on teams. It's a lovely place to be. But when I don't have to do that, I want to be outside cycling, swimming, just enjoying enjoying the world in all its splendour, and that actually kind of really boosts my energy levels then to be able to come back and do the work that I do with enthusiasm. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Roxanne folk, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I have learned so much from you today about upcoming trends, how uh as a leader I might be thinking about ESG and responsibility and the things that I need to grapple with and my responsibility to keep that further up the agenda and to be asking great questions. So thank you so much, Roxanne, for your time. And for our listeners, if you enjoyed this, please subscribe or recommend it to a friend. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Thank you so much. Love you to chat. This podcast is intended to be of a general nature, will not be suitable for everyone, and should not be treated as a specific recommendation. We recommend taking professional advice before entering into any obligation or transaction. Paradigm Norton Financial Planning Limited is authorized and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority.