#8 How One Firm Rewrote the Rules on Opportunity with Tom Lyas of Browne Jacobson.

In this episode, Philippa welcomes Tom Lyas, Head of Resourcing and Social Mobility at Browne Jacobson, where he has built one of the most impactful social mobility programmes in the UK legal sector and the architect behind FAIRE, an initiative that has opened up real work experience to over 87,000 aspiring legal professionals, many from communities historically shut out of the professions entirely.

Under his leadership, Browne Jacobson became the number one ranked employer in the Social Mobility Foundation index. Tom has given evidence in the House of Lords, been named LexisNexis Legal Awards Personality of the Year, and was recently recognised as Leader of the Year at the British Recruitment Awards. His background spans industrial and retail recruitment, including Tesco and Whitbread, before joining Browne Jacobson nearly a decade ago.

Together, they explore what fair access actually looks like when someone decides to build it from scratch, what it takes to change a hiring culture, and why the profession is better for it.

In this conversation, you'll hear about:

• How Tom's early career in retail recruitment revealed a pattern hiding in plain sight: the candidate who was "a bit more polished" kept winning, and no one was asking why
• What happened when Tom removed Browne Jacobson's academic grade requirements in his first week, the board meeting that followed, and the three bullet points that settled it
• How FAIRE was born from a single data point: 96% of work experience placements were going to partners' and clients' children, and no one had noticed
• Why Browne Jacobson high-fives when a student uses FAIRE to land a job at a rival firm, and what 87,000 participants and 4,500 tangible outcomes says about what the programme is actually for
• The story behind the Reach mentoring programme and how the firm went from hiring one Black trainee in five years to 29% of a training cohort in year one
• The accent bias research commissioned with the University of Nottingham, what the findings revealed about professional services culture, and why having an accent is described as the last taboo
• Why disclosure rates are Tom's single most important measure of culture, and what a 90%+ disclosure rate tells you about trust inside an organisation
• The case for making socioeconomic background a protected characteristic, and where that conversation currently sits
• His advice to young people who feel professional services might not be for them, including a frank observation about what social media does to your sense of what success is supposed to look like

Key takeaway

The hiring barriers blocking talented people from the professions were rarely designed to exclude them. They accumulated quietly because the people already inside never had to climb over them. Tom Lyas has spent a decade dismantling those barriers, one decision at a time, with data and a refusal to wait for permission. When you stop filtering for polish and start selecting for potential, the firm gets better too.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

I'm Filipa Hamm, CEO of Paradigm Norton. And this is Life Practice More, where we explore ESG, sustainability, and the future of business. Today's conversation is one I have been really looking forward to. Across the professional world, we talk a great deal about talent pipelines, diversity and access, but very few people actually reshape the system. Very few people take the barriers that have been baked into professions for decades and decades and decide quietly, tenaciously, and with real imagination to dismantle them. My guest today, Tom Lyas, is one of those people. Tom is the head of resourcing and social mobility at Brown Jacobson, where he has led one of the most ambitious and impactful social mobility programs in the UK legal sector. He is the architect behind FAIR, the firm's award-winning initiative that has opened up real meaningful work experience to tens of thousands of young people, many from communities that have historically been shut out of the professions altogether. And his leadership, Ryan Jacobson, has become the number one ranked employer in the Social Mobility Foundation Index. And Tom himself has been recognised across the industry from AlexisNexus Legal Awards Personality of the Year to being named the O-shaped trailblazer, and only this week Leader of the Year for In-house at the British Recruitment Awards, which I am reliably informed is the Oscars of the recruitment world. He's given evidence in the House of Lords on how businesses can move from good intentions to genuine inclusion. What I find most compelling about Tom, though, isn't the accolades, as impressive as they are, is the way he thinks about opportunity fairness and the quiet revolution happening in the professional services world. He brings a rare combination of operational rigour, strategic clarity, and deep humanity. He's living proof that cultures aren't built by slogans, but by structures, by redesigning the doors, not just widening them. So today we're going to talk about the why and the how. How do you create fair access at scale? What does real social mobility look like inside a firm? What can leaders in law, finance, and beyond learn from this work? Why does it matter, not just ethically, but economically and personally? Tom is generous, thoughtful, and quietly radical. I think you'll love this conversation. Tom, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Thank you. I mean, what an introduction that is.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Fantastic. So, right, take us from the start. What sparked your passion for social mobility? Was there a moment in your career, in your life that has shaped your approach?

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Yeah, it's uh it's something I've thought about a huge amount. Um, you know, certainly over the the last few years, as we've um, you know, made good strides. There's plenty more work to do in social mobility, but you know, we we've certainly um certainly started that journey. Um, I mean, I'm not from a lower socioeconomic background myself. Um, my parents um were physiotherapists um and you know, went to state school. So um I think it's um you know from my side, um my first real kind of foray into social mobility um is when I uh I went to Tesco. So my background is as a recruiter, um, and and it is lovely just 48 hours ago, um, you know, having kind of recognition for circa 20 plus years of helping others and you know providing opportunities, and it is a very wholesome moment. But you know, when I moved in-house for the first time, having been uh on the agency side of things, um, that's when I really started to understand a bit more uh around you know how interviews and and hires in organizations were made. Obviously, from a recruiting agent perspective, where I first started, you know, you'd put candidates forward and you wouldn't get a huge amount of feedback back. They'd either get the job or they wouldn't. So you didn't have a huge insight into what was happening. But when I started sitting with um with hiring managers in in organizations like Tesco, um, and particularly at the junior levels, so you know, graduates and interns, you know, the very grassroots of of the profession, um I started to notice a little bit of um uh a trend, um, which only years later do I understand um for what it probably is. And I do I often use the word guilt. I uh I still carry a little bit of guilt, um, which is unfair to myself and it's probably unfair to others. You know, you as life progresses and you learn more, you understand, you know, um, and educate yourself. So the amount of times that I'd sat in interviews um with fantastic graduates, and you'd get down to the final two, um, and then you couldn't really make a decision. It was, yeah, they're both as good as each other, they can bring different things. Um, but the phrase, you know, let's go with this one because they're just a bit more polished would come up time and time and time again. Um and now I fully understand what that phrase, yeah, you know, they're a little bit more polished can mean. Doesn't mean it always does. Um, but you know, this is perhaps somebody that's got a professional network that they could tap into. Um, you know, the academic side of things may have taught them more about careers than than somebody who who went to you know a lower performing school, things like that. So that was probably the very first moment that I started to to understand around okay, is there something um you know, is there something different uh you know based on your background? Um at Tesco, things were done on such a size of scale, you know, we'd be recruiting anywhere from you know two, three, four hundred plus graduates, you know, two, three, four hundred plus interns, um, that you did start to see patterns. And I remember um probably now, I would have thought early 2010, 11, 12, something like that. Um, having a group of about 30 graduates come in and they were fantastic. I mean, you know, really good. Um, but what I noticed is that they could all do, if you set them a task, they could either all do it really well, or actually they didn't all know how to start it. So there was a real difference, and I was like, I've now come to realise that's what's probably known as groupthink. And I suppose when you start to piece and sew everything together, I was like, you know, at Tesco back in that period of time, the instructions were to go to the best universities, go for those with first class degrees, straight A grades at A level. So you're you're fishing in this incredibly small puddle, effectively, um, and ignoring the ocean of talent that exists, you know, without sounding like a cliche that's but that that comes from other places. Um when I took the decision there, I said, actually, do you know what? Let's stop looking at grades, let's start doing things a bit differently. Um, the world just changed, you know, the the demographics um of who was coming through from you know non-Russell group universities or from state school or for those that had two ones or even in some cases two two degrees. Um, and we started looking at what I suppose the best way to describe it is we started looking at in at talent in context rather than just what was on the CV. And for me, that was the game changer. That's what started the whole social mobility for me.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

It's amazing. And and so true, isn't it? And you're just when you're having to make those quick decisions about things, you tend to go back to those shortcuts. And it's easy to say, let's go with a polished one. But as you say, no one no one's then asking the question, well, why are they more polished? What have they got and and what does that mean them? So um that's fab. Um Toby, you've worked across multiple sectors, you haven't always been in law firms, as you've just said.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

Absolutely. Yeah, I I'm not from a legal background. Um, you know, as you've uh uh I I guess my career, you know, it started. Um I didn't go to university. Um, so I had the opportunity to go um and play cricket in South Africa, which uh you know any 18-year-old would would sort of jump at. Um so I decided to do that and and try and follow that route as opposed to um you know progressing with academics. Um I think I'd um you know uh I achieved reasonable A-level grades, um, I enjoyed school, but I just think I'd had enough. Um so I did that. Um retail and leisure um was obviously what I needed to do, you know, while um while doing cricket at the weekends and stuff. Um and then you know, my my career has really spanned kind of industrial recruitment. Um, and I do think, you know, certainly with what's just happened you know, 48 hours ago, uh, you know, it does make you reflect back. Um, you know, my my first foray into you know the world of talent actually was trying to convince people to come and work a 45-hour week in a freezing cold factory for £21 more than they would get for doing a week on benefits at home. Um, and you thought, well, why would you do that? And it actually really helped me understand that people are like, it's not about the money, it's about having a purpose. So that was industrial recruitment. I moved then into the sort of more um real estate uh work. So I used to recruit architects, estate surveyors, acquisitions, um, engineers for big retail and leisure organizations, which is how I ended up at Tesco. Um I followed an incredibly um talented individual from Tesco to Whitbreads, and when they owned Costa, Premier Inn, uh and the beef eater brands. Um and then my wife, who is from uh Bedfordshire, um got a job at Boots, the uh Nottingham-based retailer. Um, and it was at that point that it was like, Do you want to go back home? And I thought we you know had 10 years in London, um, and I was like, I feel like yeah, I'd be I'd be up for this. And um so we came home, and it was at that point that I was offered the job at Brown Jacobson. Um, and I had never had any dealings whatsoever with a lawyer. You know, I'd never been in trouble, I hadn't bought a house, um, I hadn't had any reason. And then all of a sudden I'm put in charge of recruiting, um, you know, recruiting the lawyers, um, which coming into the legal profession was just so alien for me. Um, but I have to say, you know, it has been just uh it'll be 10 years in June next year, June, um, June the 6th, 2026, if I make it that far. Um, it's absolutely been the bride of my life.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

That's so funny. I mean, I've only I've only ever worked in law firms, so it's so funny. Like I've just sort of come out of the working in a law firm, but they are they're sort of singular places. So, so what did you take with you then from your previous careers in sort of retail and leisure to you know, professional services is kind of different?

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Oh, uh 100% different. Um, I mean, my my first week kind of made me realise how different um, you know, two things happened pretty much in my first week, um, you know, thereabouts. So um, you know, it's a well-told story, you know, in certain circles now, certainly around social mobility. Um, but you know, it was so I didn't uh this sounds crazy. Um, you know, I didn't bat an eyelid walking in on even my first week. Um, and we were starting to look at you know early careers, and I was oh you know, take the academics off. We don't need we we used to ask for a two-one, an A and two Bs A level. Uh and I was oh no no, don't you don't need that. Um and obviously I'm strolling in having seen you know five or six years worth of Tesco and Whitbread doing taking the the academics off and seeing you know quite a lot of magic happen uh as a result of it. Um, but I had no idea how much the legal profession placed, you know, um, you know, I can't think of the right term, but you know, the prowess placed on academic grades. So you know that that's a story to tell. Um, but also, you know, at the time I was stilling in our ing, you know, I came back to Nottingham. Um and there was one job which would have kept me in London, and it was um it was ahead of graduate recruitment at a mega firm, and I won't obviously say which, but you know, uh it was in a you know probably what would be described as a magic circle. Um and I went through the interview process, um, I was absolutely up for it. And at the end they said, look, we're gonna go with someone else because you haven't got legal experience of the legal sector. And I thought, well, you you knew that from my CV, you know, we've had this conversation. Um, whether it was a bluff or not, I'll never know. And and you know, it kind of it's in the past now. Um, but a week after starting at Brown Jacobson, um, you know, either the other candidate might have declined, I've no idea. Um, but I got a phone call and they said, Oh, we can see you at a law firm. Um, and I was like, Yeah, it's great. And you know, I've been here two two or three days and it's going well. Um, and they asked the question, Well, you know, now you've got legal experience. Do you want would you would you want to uh come out? And I was like, I I literally have been here four days, three days, and I thought at the time I didn't think a huge amount, but I was like, there's something in this. Um, and it's strange, sorry, I'm slightly going off topic for you here, but um I had a conversation in London on Wednesday uh uh about starting to look at, you know, from a social mobility perspective, um, I you know, whether we can commit commission some research. Um, you know, my job is the you know, there isn't another person, I don't think, in this country that has the same job title as me, you know, head of resourcing and social mobility. But what's so brilliant about it is, you know, my team go out searching for talent, you know, so we rise, uh increase aspiration, we we fill the hopper, we select everybody, we're responsible for the onboarding process to make sure that when we found great talent, we don't lose them. Um but you know, what's really interesting for me is from a talent perspective, how much talent I think is lost for law firms, particularly not on the Fiennon inside, but maybe the central functions and you know, kind of the office functions, um, through the phrase of hiring managers saying, Oh, you know, I really want someone that's got professional services or legal services experience. If that's if if Brown Jacobson had applied that to me, I wouldn't have been able to get in the front door. Um, and a lot of the things we've done together, it's not all on me, it's a huge amount of people who do the this stuff, would never have happened. Um, and I'm sort of feel on a bit of a mission to, as you said at the start, break that barrier down. You know, um, people to answer you to answer your question, um, people who are bringing other sector experience into professional services or into legal services world, um, you know, you you bring a totally different perspective. Um, you said yourself at the start, Philip, I mean, your career's phenomenal, um, and and you know, it's extremely broad, but you know, law firms, it's very they're almost victims of their own success, I think, at times. Um, because you know, I've never worked with so many people that have got 20, 30, 40. We even recently had someone who had 50 years um service, and that's incredible. But it does mean that you you are only really familiar with your own world. And law firms, if anything, if they do decide, well, what are other people doing, they tend to sort of peer over the fence at the neighbours, which are another law firm. And and you know, there's some brilliant stuff in law, of course there is, you know, it's it's uh, as I said, the ride of my life. Um, but you have to have people coming in from other sectors that will bring different innovation, different perspectives to certain challenges. Um, and I think Briacobson, you know, has been been a forerunner in doing that.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah, oh definitely. So I just want to go back to that moment you were you walked in on your first week, you said, oh no, we don't need any minimum grades or you know, preferred universities or anything, which absolutely as an ex-lawyer blows my mind.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

When did you realize that that was an unusual thing to do? And what and what was the reaction?

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Um well, so everything in the early careers world takes about two years. So you make a decision, you take an action, and usually two years later, that's when somebody arrives. So, for example, you know, they come to an assessment center, you make a you make an offer, they'll either finish their final year or previously would have gone off and you know, then done a year's worth of uh of GDL or LPC, and then they arrive at the firm. Um and the conversation was um it feels like it was yesterday, and I can recall it pretty much kind of word for word, or I believe I can. Um, you know, I had a call from a partner who um said, you know, my new graduates here, um, you know, they're brilliant. Um, but you know, could you let me know what the mitigating circumstances are because they've got a 2-2. Um and I was like, I don't think there are any. Uh and I said, Well, you know, for a couple of years now we've not had any grade requirements, you know, I took them off. Um, but let's focus on the first half of the conversation, you know, they're they're brilliant. And that was it. It was like, oh, okay, okay. Um, phone went down five minutes later, my boss calls, um, and we're like, I've just had a really weird phone call. Um, what what have we done? Um, because I never asked, and and I need to always be honest about this. You know, I I thought having been hired to um be the head of recruitment, well, wasn't the head of recruitment's recruitment manager at the time, um, you know, but given the the remit of of looking after recruitment, I I assumed like everywhere else I could make these decisions in isolation. Um so anyway, my boss said, Okay, you're going to have to explain this because they're they're concerned. Um I I then was called to um uh a board meeting. You know, our structure is slightly different now, but I was I was asked to go to a board meeting. Um, and and I think in the run-up to that, people were kind of like, You're very calm about this. And I was like, why wouldn't I be? Um and actually going into that meeting, um, you know, I only I didn't prepare a paper or anything like that. Um, but but there were three bullet points on this this um paper and which answered the questions I believe they were going to ask me. And I think because it was only three bullet points, I think they're a bit like, again, are you taking the mic? You know, where's the detail? Um now, despite I can be you know a very jovial character and and you know, kind of pretty sort of chilled out with stuff, you know, I will always, when it comes to data, I will absolutely go down the mine uh in a very, very commercial way. So I had built up enough of a reputation by this point, you know, that people trusted me. Um and I went around 88 of the then 109 partners. Um and I asked them, I said, look, confidentially, completely anonymously, but I do need to know what grade did you get at um at university? And I'd noticed a real this might be uh, you know, I'm not suggesting for a second that I am absolutely factually correct on this one. Um, but I noticed a very strong correlation where LinkedIn, if you have a first class degree, more often than not, it it's splashed across the um, you know, your your achievements. Um for those who didn't get a first class degree, it tends to not be there. Um so anyway, I go into this board meeting um with three points. Um the first one was you know, who are our most successful people? Um and to a T, it was partners. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, our partners are tremendous individuals, they built up great businesses, um, they lead great teams. And I said, always remember what you've just said for the rest of the context of this conversation. Um, the second point was then, okay, why do we ask for a two, one and an A and two Bs at A level, you know, to apply for a graduate program? Um and it always comes back to the same thing, or it certainly did at the time, which is um it's a sign of intelligence. Um and it's like, okay, well, there is so much more uh around the context of, you know, if you're from a low-income household, um, you know, if you are born in an area of deprivation and the schools aren't great quality, if you go to a school where the average outcome might be an E and a D or a couple of D's at A level, it's very unlikely you're going to come out and get an A and two B's. Um and that's not your fault. So again, I argued the point on that. And then the final one, which kind of started my career really at Brown Jacobson, is um when I revealed the result of having spoken to 88 um of the um 109 partners, is actually that 20% of our partners themselves, their words, our top talent, um, had a 2-2, um, and they wouldn't be able to apply for their own graduate program. Um, and in what is a you know an eye-catching story, there's a real hard message there, which is you know, if you don't have the right recruitment process or you put a barrier in place that actually makes no difference to you know, it cuts out the wrong people, um, that's talent that your business is going to lose, and it's ultimately profit you're gonna lose. So, um, what was interesting, you know, some of the Reasons, this takes this story just a touch further. Is um you know, a lot of partners who are from a lower uh income background, uh, you know, are lower socioeconomic background, you know, they've carried a bit of that through their careers, um, coming into a profession like the legal profession. And and you know, I've had a lot of very kind words said to myself and my team about, you know, I can finally sort of breathe and talk about this openly, you know. Um, but they always said um at the interview, you know, people made the assumption. I went to Durham University, uh making that one up for anyone at Durham. You know, I went to Durham University, um, and someone was, oh, that's a great university. And then they never asked me the question, what classification did you get? So it's not that they lied and said they got something else, but they were never asked the question simply because the assumption that that institute meant you must have had great training. So so it was interesting from that. And and you know, that's that's just a bit of a story for you. Um uh to show wrong recruitment process, barrier in place, you will miss talent.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah, I love that. Uh maybe you should have been a lawyer, Tom. I mean, it was very, very well argued.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Maybe I've just spent too much time with them. Uh so maybe it's rubbed off a little bit on me.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Oh, I love that. I mean, it's it's the shortcuts that we all take, isn't it? To to try and get the job done rather than trying to get the best talent. And I love the fact that you are challenging the status quo around that. We can't have this podcast without talking to you about your FAIR program. How much of that fed into it? What is it? How did it come about? Um, what makes it different to the traditional work experience schemes?

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Yeah. Oh, do you know? Even as you said that, my hairs have just randomly stood on end. Um, FAIR is just uh, you know, it's amazing. Um, so Fair was born out of, again, you know, I'm quite a simple guy. Um, you know, I don't tend to kind of muddy the water too much. Fair was a program which was born out of me seeing so many things that I thought were unfair. It's as simple as that. Um, it started back in, I think around 20, the idea, the concept came in around the tail end of 2018, start of 2019. Um, and it I never used to, despite having responsibility for a lot of things, um, nobody owned work experience at our firm back then. Um and that's you know, we were a growing firm. You know, when I joined, we were just 600 people, you know, with double that number today. Um, but when nobody owns something, it's like water, it will tend to just seep its way into lots of areas. So a partner uh rang up and said, I've just had the son of a corporate client um you know arrive at reception. Um we've promised a a couple of weeks' work experience three months ago, forgotten about it. Um, and of course, I'll give them a good experience, but can somebody please just take control of this? You know, this is this is becoming disruptive. And we were getting so many requests, you know, from clients and and and others, which is um certainly was the norm um, you know, uh in the industry, um, to the extent that when I said, look, I'll of course I'll put my hands up, you know, I've made a career at, I put my hands up and taking other people's problems and trying to sort them out. You know, that's for sure. I I will always say yes where I can. Um, but anyway, then looked at the data, and one thing we were surprisingly good at, given no one owned it, is we did have a spreadsheet um which captured everything we'd done over three or four years. Um, and I was amazed, I was amazed to see that a roughly 80, eight zero students, kind of um clients, children and stuff were coming in into the firm each year. And I was like, that's a huge number. I was like, that's great. Um, and then I looked and realized that 96% of them were partner or clients' children. Um, and there was no opportunity. There was no opportunity for for others. Um and I literally went to bed that night. I've still got the email. Um, I'm a bit of a collector of um of moments that that sort of means something. So I keep you know speech notes and stuff like this, but um, I still got the email that I wrote at 1.30 in the morning that night, shot up in bed, and I was like, you know what? Fair, we need to create something called fair. Um fair f A I R E. It stands for Fairer Access into Real Experience. Um the next morning by nine o'clock, I was um talking to the uh the people director and Caroline Green, our um senior partner, and I said, look, if we are serious about social mobility and and being serious here, here's the issue. We need to create a dedicated programme. It's going to be called FAIR. Um, 50% of the places on this will still give 80 um places. They'll all be paid because not one person was being paid to do work experience, and we were cutting out loads of people who obviously couldn't afford to do work experience. Um, but we'll ring fence 50% for um for people from lower socioeconomic background who've got no connection to the firm and have never had work experience. Uh so we'll give them that opportunity and and make it a more balanced approach. And that's where FAIR was born from. Um then you know, as we were starting to sort of roll it out, um, COVID hit, obviously, around 2020. Um, and you you have this kind of very rapid decision to make because you know no one on the planet had experienced something like this. Um, and it was like, well, do you do you just pause it, do you stop it, or do you just go at it and try and make it work? Um, I suspect even in the few minutes we've been speaking, you've probably understood that I was never going to stop something, I was always gonna go at it. Um, and it was like, right, okay, well, can we possibly deliver something like virtual work experience um for the first time? You know, this is a world where you know, right now, you know, teams in Zoom feel almost old, but you know, in 2020, Zoom and Teams were like, what is this? Most people have never used it before. So we decided to try and put on a virtual work experience. Um, now, what when we say virtual work experience, what the beauty of fair is is never, and I'm so grateful to the firm and its leaders, not once have I been asked to show a return on investment or you know any sort of business-related return for doing this. They get that this is essential to the future of the profession, basically. So they allowed me to put on an event online which not only talked about law firms, but we invited you know clients to speak or others to speak about the in-house side of things. We brought chambers in to talk about what's a barrister career. Um, and basically it was kind of let's create something, you know, someone's described it very nicely as by all for all for the entire profession. You know, you leave your ego at the door, whether you're you know, we've had people like Lady Hale speaking, we've had presence of law society, you know, some amazing people who give their time for free, you know, to come and speak for the greater good. Um and I'll never forget, I'm sat at my kitchen table now and I was sat there on this day uh when we first did it, and I thought, you know, is anyone going to turn up? Etc. I logged on to the team call and I saw 7,120 students on that call, um, and almost all of them stuck with us for two days, um, simply because um we were just trying to help them get access and understand and have a fair chance of getting into the profession. So what makes it so unique is that it's not just a cell for Brian Jacobson, it's about the entire profession, every facet, and we high-five each other if somebody uses that experience to get a job at another law firm, if they get use it to get the confidence to get into a university of their choice. Um and you know, it's just been a phenomenal journey. I mean, we ran um FAIR, the big one, as it's now affectionately known, which is the virtual work experience. We've got FAIR in-person work experience, which is you know uh what it says on the tin, about 80 individuals coming in for for in-person work experience. Um, but you know, we ran another event two weeks, three weeks ago, I think it was now, and another five and a half thousand turned up, two and a half thousand have since read uh watched the recording because of they were on school holidays. Um and since FAIR launched, um, I know at the time that you and I had spoken, um, you know, it the number was big. Um, we've actually now just had over 87,000 um aspiring legal professionals come through our virtual events, through our online uh careers hub that we've built for free. Um, and of those, about we haven't got uh an exact number, but it's it's circa four and a half thousand have actually got a tangible outcome. So they've got into a university of choice, um, they've got a paralegal job, they've got a training contract, you know, they've got a SLICS apprenticeship. You know, this is not a let's just, you know, it's not a CSR thing. It's not just to talk about it and and you know, best of luck. There has to be tangible outputs from this stuff, or it's not worth doing. So that's what I think makes fair different.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Wow, I am blown away. That is just incredible. Absolutely amazing. And it's free for all. Anyone can join. Absolutely free. Absolutely free. That's amazing. That's amazing. 87,000. I'm j that I'm honestly, it's not very quick to my save, so I'm a bit feathless about that. Um that's brilliant. Do you I mean, do you get to meet any of these young people?

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Uh I mean, uh yes, uh of course. Um, I I mean it is hard to comprehend. Uh and uh like I say, uh I am really simple. You know, I never I never really had a career plan. Um I I I follow the wind or let the wind take me where where where it goes, whatever the phrase is. Um, but one thing is I'm absolutely passionate about is fairness. Um and coming into the legal profession, uh, you know, I saw so many things that were unfair, hence the name. Um, but it is so nice to meet people, um, to hear the incredibly kind words of you know, what a difference you've made. Um, you've filled me not only with aspiration, but also intention to go and do something. Um, you know, I I mean the statistics are incredibly strong. So you are 17 times more likely to be a lawyer if your parents are one. Um, and I I see on a daily basis why that is the case. Um and I I just feel intrinsically bound to make sure that others who don't have um that connection um have their fair opportunity. Um, because there's so much talent out there that the legal profession needs. The legal profession needs incredibly diverse perspectives and voices. Um, and so you need representation of society as a whole, and to exclude any um any part of society, no matter what background that is, um the profession will be worse for it. So when I do meet individuals of which there are the people at the firm, people at other firms, um it is a very, very wholesome moment.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yes, yeah. And you've also uh you've also introduced accent bias training um for your partners alongside the the sort of more usual socioeconomic sort of um and diversity training. Talk to me a little bit about that accent bias bias training. Is anything surprised you about the outcome of that?

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Um so the accent bias training um it's not an initiative. I'm certainly um not going to take you know any credit for that. There are some tremendously talented people at the firm, you know, and and outside the firm uh who who've created that. So we started, um, we did what's called a knowledge transfer partnership, um, for anyone who isn't aware. So um, you know, a half-half kind of uh agreement where University of Nottingham would um it's a three-year agreement between University of Nottingham and Brown Jacobson, um, you know, to commission some research and you know the shared funding and we could we managed to get some grants and stuff like that. Um and we looked at a series of things across um diversity, equity, inclusion. And one of those, obviously from a social mobility perspective, was around um you know accent bias. Um so we partnered, it originally started with a partnership with the linguistics school. Um so um Victoria Howard, who currently works in my team but at the time was at the University of Nottingham, um, and uh Professor Louise uh at the linguistics school at University of Nottingham. Um and we started putting job specs into I call it the machine because I don't actually know what it's called, but some sort of technology where you can feed lots and lots of stuff in. Um and actually it told us is the bias within our job specifications, you know, are you likely to attract or you know, more likely, you know, turn the lights out for certain demographics. And we started initially certainly looking at um, you know, female candidates. Um, and it was the very strong words, um, so you need to be excellent, you need to be, you know, this um within our job specs that started to show there's a bit of bias. Um, you know, and I liken it to as I've got older, uh 45 now, um, I've I I I keep finding myself using analogies, and I don't know why. Um maybe it's just to keep it simple for me. Um, so there's a lot of um research out there and and you know, anecdotal um comments as well, um, about the difference between you know male-female approaches to various um uh you know talent-related um opportunities. So, you know, men will quite often look read a job spec and think, okay, I can do 20% of that, I'll apply. Um, you know, women will sometimes say, well, unless I can do 90% of it, I'm just not gonna apply. Um, I quite liken it as my analogy is you know, it's kind of men will quite often, if they went to IKEA, they'll get a set of um drawers, they'll try and build it without reading the instructions, and then surprise, surprise, there's five pieces left over at the end, and you're like, oh, I should have probably done that in the first place. Um, more often than not, and certainly my other half would read it intently and then only start when you're like, I'm really clear on this, and then it's perfectly built at the end, of course. Um and what we found is a lot of the language um was putting off female applications. Um, and so we had then you know uh a great session of making uh job specs more inclusive, and we saw a real uptick very quickly um you know in in the applications. Um and then it as I said, it then went a little bit further. We we formally started the KTP um knowledge transfer partnership, and the accent bias training was born out of um you know, people are describing it as kind of you know the last taboo and very strong regional accents, um not you know not being uh welcome or people feeling insecure if they've got a very strong regional accent in the law. Um, you know, I mean I I've heard a lot we commissioned some research and the findings were anonymous, but they were really quite shocking. Um lots of people saying, you know, I've been recommended to have elocution lessons or you'd never succeed in the profession. Um people saying that, you know, I can't put you in front of a client for the pitch because you know they might not understand your accent. I mean, genuinely, you know, and you're talking, you know, particularly the demographic scene, you know, what there was a lot of spread, but you know, very concentrated on uh the northeast, the northwest, um Burmian accent uh you know was regularly something that came up. And of course, that's crazy because that that's part of who you are. You shouldn't have to change any facet of who you are to be successful or get an opportunity. But obviously, the darker side of you know, if you're not put onto the pitch team, if you're not part of um, you know, getting client-facing opportunities, we've seen that it can potentially harm your promotion and progression opportunity. And obviously, you know, social mobility, which is always the lens through which I look, um, you know, it's not just about getting in, it is absolutely about getting on. Um, you know, the worst thing you can do is create a lot of opportunity, leave somebody to it and put provide no in um organisation support. Um and then you know, you're surprised when your retention rate decreases because you haven't provided an environment. So I appreciate that. Sorry, that's a very long-winded um answer. But you know, Louise and um Victoria have created an amazing project. Uh we have rolled the training out to all hiring man uh you know, those that are related to the hiring um process. We've also um piloting it with this year's promotion panel uh assessors to make sure that they're aware of um its accent bias and socioeconomic um awareness. Um and it's yeah, it's fascinating. Um sorry, one last thing on this um is the this was not a Brown Jacobson piece of research, but it's um for your readers, uh sorry listeners, um the uh there's uh an article out there if you Google accent bias, it'll it'll come up straight away if you accent bias legal. Um and what was interesting is there was a a process, uh sorry, a um I can't think of the word, like an experiment basically. Um, and they gave uh 60 interviewers uh written responses to interview questions, and then they gave about 60 assessors uh verbal recordings of the same answers to the same questions, and who got the job based on the written uh response, which was identical to the you know, the verbal response was completely different, um, simply based on uh the sound of the voice, as opposed to because it was the same words just said with an accent.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Yeah, I mean all of those cognitive biases that we forget that we have or we don't know that we've got that make it hard for people who uh who aren't of a certain type to to get on the world. I just I I just think it's amazing. Sounds to me like um you have done quite a lot to to change the culture in in the law firm. Um talk to me about uh culture change and how you measure success. What I mean, what do you even measure when you're looking at this kind of thing?

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Yeah, it's uh again, and that's a it evolves. So, you know, you have to have some sort of baseline to know, well, are we making a difference? Um and you know, I think what's different about so what's there are some hard metrics and some very soft metrics. So your hard metrics will be okay, you know, in terms of who's applying to your roles, the demographic of those, who's getting through which stages of the recruitment process, both at junior levels and obviously uh experience hires, who's hired, who's performing, uh, who stays. You know, they're they're kind of your your really um hard measures. And then you've got some slightly softer stuff, um, which is harder to measure, but you have to, it's it's critically important. I sit within you know the people team, uh the people department, you know, absolutely tremendous um group of individuals, you know, very much enablers as opposed to um you know kind of HR policing. You know, it's it's it's really trying to help support the firm. We've got an engagement um function, and what they do you know once a year, um might be twice a year, sorry, but um, they send out an engagement survey, and within the engagement survey are questions around you know, do you feel your background um has ever held you back? Um, you know, have you ever had to mask any part of your identity uh to feel to fit in or to get on? Um and obviously there's a numerical, you know, uh, or you know, I I strongly disagree, I strongly agree, or anything in between. But obviously, regularly doing surveys like that, it's critical to know well, what have we have we stayed the same, have we moved forward, have we gone backwards? Um and and they're the sort of questions that we would measure and take interest in. Um I think you know, I was at the um model UK model diversity survey um on Monday, just gone, um, and uh, you know, that's a huge survey uh done professional services, law firms, and others. Um and what feedback we get quite regularly is the level of disclosure rate. So we're well into the 90s, which you know, 70 is kind of your if if you're getting 70% of your workforce disclosing their information, then they're engaged and believe that you know what you're you're doing is genuine, it will be listened to, it will be actioned on. And I think for us, you know, that's it's an incredible achievement to be in the 90s, and that itself shows that people are engaged and willing to. givers their very very personal um viewpoint and data because they trust and see action um and I think that alone you know disclosure rates are really for me the the absolute number one metric in measuring culture um because if you're not telling you what they think it tells you everything about what they think.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Yeah yeah I don't I I don't know if you've ever read Culture Shock uh by Gallup where they talk about engagement rates and how it where they've got statistics around how it shows up in the amount of mistakes people make, the amount of of um sickness they take how long how much they care for their clients all that kind of thing. I couldn't agree with you more that actually having engaged people isn't just about having happy people it's about having a successful firm where with inside it's talking about what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

Yeah 100% I mean somebody told me um the somebody told me a really good story um I hope it's true um you know I wasn't there um but I there is no reason at all for me to believe this uh this person would tell me uh tell me a lie um I better not say the company just on the chance that it isn't right um but this is a perfect example of a culture um where everybody is pulling together so they described this luxury car retailer um or manufacturer sorry you know British based luxury car manufacturer um and they said that they have this thing this big red button okay um and basically this car as it gets manufactured everyone's got a job they're all doing their part and collectively adding up to this beautiful machine you know coming off the end of the production line if you make one mistake you're meant to press the button and the whole factory shuts down. Oh wow um and obviously then production stalls um and apparently they've got 100% success rate of if I make a mistake they pick the button because they know if they try and hide their little mistake it will absolutely be picked up and then everybody has to it's twice as disruptive yeah but they've created a culture where it's absolutely okay to say do you know what I'm so sorry yeah I've I've just made a mistake sort it everybody goes on that is amazing um to to feel confident enough to do in front of everyone say oh I'm so sorry I've made a mistake um but to have a hundred percent people genuinely doing it and knowing that if they you know it's okay to make those mistakes that was such a lovely I I loved hearing that yeah um when somebody told me that I hope I hope it's true. Yeah yeah we all need a big red button don't we that people that are happy to press I couldn't I don't know I don't know how many in-law firms would press it it'd be amazing to hit uh to to experiment maybe maybe we're gonna get one in reception to like big red button all right so let's move on from from fair and culture and talk about reach which is another one of your uh initiatives what is it why did you create it and yeah talk to us a bit about it yeah so so so reach um like I said it so reach it's not my personal um one this is very much the the brainchild um of a phenomenal partner of ours um Bridget Tatham um she's uh race race um executive sponsor REACH itself is race ethnicity and cultural heritage um uh you know a quite widely uh used um acronym for race and ethnicity related um cultural celebration um and it's again we were everything that we do is data led um and if I link the two so recruitment um and fare and the removal of grades and everything if I sort of bring it back into you know the metrics that we started to see post 2016 you know you remove the academics um one year later 45% of the candidates who got training contract offers were actually candidates that if we still asked for a 2-1 and an A and 2B wouldn't have actually got um been able to apply let alone get the job um but we started to see this trend um I I guess you'd probably call it intersectionality um these days where each year our demographic which at the time was just in 2016 our junior lawyer population was 7% black Asian UK ethnic minority um it was 100% from Russell Group University um 11% from lower socioeconomic background so that's our kind of starting point like I said remove the grades and you know things start to progress and we started to see that 7% um you know black uh Asian UK ethnic minority start to creep up I think it jumped up in the first year from 7% to 19% and it went to 24 then it went to 27 or 29%. So we were like okay there's something in this as we're focused on social mobility as we remove grades and we'll we're we're we we're taking people in context to their background uh their achievements in context to their background um we're seeing an increase in in in ethnic minority representation um but what was by 2019 no sorry probably by 2020 um what we noticed is that while the overall percentage of black Asian UK ethnic minority was increasing the black part the black individuals um were it were just not making any difference um and up until I think it was 2022 because that's when Bridget with support from you know myself plenty of others um external individual now called um Gavin um we'd hired I think one black trainee in five years um and that's not representative certainly of what uh you know the demographic is within UK law schools um and most certainly not representative of um you know the demographic within the UK population and at that point you're you're kind of like right well the only option that we have is proper targeted um specific uh initiative and that's where Bridget uh you know uh her brainchild um you know reach came from this REACH mentoring program um so we supported Bridget by putting together a a a really structured um six month program it included paid work experience um and it was just phenomenal um so we there was hesitancy in various parts of um the firm um and we called it a pilot um Bridget and I called it a pilot because then it just allows you to to kind of be like let's try this and before we we sort of fully commit um we always need and want to be you know very intentional with our actions so we tried this pilot um and it was it was amazing. In the first year 54% of the 12 um maybe it was sorry forgive me um I'm casting my mind back it was either 12 or 13 I think it was 13 individuals but we ended up with a 54% success rate um of people coming off the program um and then either securing some of vacation programs which then led to training contracts um or being offered a training contract right uh outright um and these were just incredibly talented individuals um and many of those are still with us obviously today um we learned a huge amount in that um in that first year about the structure about what we needed to really focus on in terms of the skills the behaviors the actual um interventions and the content of the program uh and then in the second year's pilot um we actually got up to 75% um success rate um again you know with a tangible outcome um the the very clear difference between fair and reach is that reach well fair is for the greater good and and as I said there's no return on that investment it simply is for the profession reach couldn't be further from that it is a very very clear recruitment pipeline um and then in terms of our training contracts so our trainee cohorts um like I said um we had uh oh I'm so sorry I'm casting my mind back I think we went from about three or four percent um of our trainee cohort being black to 29% in the first year um and then in the second year it went to 34% and that is a size I mean you know that you you it sounds seismic but you are talking about maybe three or four people um you know because our population is only about 20. So so it is it's a higher percentage than it is a number. But when you put that in context we hired one black um trainee in five years um and then with a really structured program all of a sudden you have a far better pipeline of genuinely talented individuals. You know this isn't a um there are no shortcuts here this is not a um you know uh a kind of tokenistic programme this is an absolute you know if anything they had to they had to perform even uh more strongly because we were so acutely aware of if we get this wrong um you know and talent comes in that isn't up to standard will be you know the impact of that could be quite catastrophic. So actually those who came through probably had it even harder and deserved it even more. And that program has gone from strength to strength. We're into year four now I think um it's the it's been embraced by the profession. Our clients are now involved in it because what we also want to do is help you know as the number has grown to about 20 mentees of course there aren't 20 opportunities just at Brown Jacobson. And what we need is partners who can bring opportunity they bring mentors but they also bring opportunity so we've got you know a couple of fantastic clients involved and their teams provide a totally different point of view because they're in-house but they you know there are reach mentees that aspire to be barristers and there are reach mentees that aspire to be in-house and and you know we have a duty to try and help them get to that career as well. So it's evolving um it's tremendous um you know shout out to Bridget she's I think now a multi-award winner you know herself for for that programme and rightly so and I have to say um you know our firm quite literally would not look the same if it wasn't for uh initiatives like Reach.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Yeah I mean that's incredible isn't it what another massive success story.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

So I just is it just shining a light on this stuff is it what was missing from the the sort of approach of of of your sort of applicants that you were able because you've been able to move the cell pretty quickly yeah it's uh I I think that's the beauty of you know I always have to remind myself um and I have to remind a few others um on on Monday at um at a a panel that I did you have to remember you know the scale of your own organization um and you know Bram Jacobson in the grand scheme of things you know it's a brilliant firm it's incredibly successful but you know we are still quite small um you know we're 1,300 people um that's double what we were just you know say eight nine years ago um but also that um the size of our business allows us to to be very agile when it comes to making decisions um and you know I know um I I I Richard's uh meds our managing partner you know um he he he and Caroline Green our senior partner they make life so easy for stuff like this because they get it um they allow and trust us to say you know whether it's me whether it's Ollie our head of um head of diversity inclusion uh Shelly the people uh chief people officer they allow you to go and say I I know that you know this will make a difference so we'll it we'll allow you to do it um but I just think um you know there are some very clear in the in the in the recruitment process there is significant adverse impact particularly there's a lot of research on adverse impact uh on things like online testing psychometrics um against the the the you know junior black lawyers that there is absolutely research out there so I'm not saying anything that's not true there um and again after 20 plus years being around this stuff in recruitment I know that there's a lot of early careers teams that will have processes in place that aren't to select the right candidates they're processes that will take a huge volume of applications some some some firms get 10,000 applications and they might have a hundred jobs and you're kind of like you know literally how do we get 99% of of the pool out of it because only 1% is going to get the job but the danger with that is that it's it's putting a tool in place that is fundamentally biased towards certain demographics. So our job has been to unpick that process to to to assess individuals in a way that doesn't give them an advantage but it certainly removes the disadvantage otherwise you know it's an unfair um process because you know the the tool itself is biased for a certain population. So these the these are talented individuals um but I I think you know what that that's an element of what's stopped people getting into profession. And then you've got you know a clear lack previously a clear lack of um visual role models uh you know for these individuals um you know the profession is brilliantly more diverse today than it was when we started looking at this stuff and that's amazing um and there's so much more to do but you know you'll uh the classic you know if you can't be it you can't see it um quite often I speak to you know uh aspiring professionals on campus or on you know various um platforms um and without that they just lacked initially a belief that they could actually welcome and could could find a place there because they just struggled to find visual role models for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Yeah yeah I mean I I I've never even had a female boss of of any background. So yeah it's it it's astonishing isn't it how yeah how that plays into what you believe you can do.

SPEAKER_03 59:34

And I was going to say if you if you think about social mobility um you know social mobility is an incredibly complex subject but you know in its simplest term it's about you know somebody doing better than their parents uh you know that that's effectively you know that's it um and moving from you know a lower uh socioeconomic background to an intermediate or an intermediate to a professional um and again in all this is where I think you know the simplicity of this comes if you don't have a role model whether that's a parent a guardian a teacher a friend a contact whatever it is or even potentially in your case a you know a female leader boss where do you you have to figure it out yourself and that's twice as hard as having somebody or a network around you that can help you and that's where the advantage of a professional background comes in you know if your parents are like I can prepare you for this interview or I can get you some work experience or I've been there I you know I know what you're experiencing this is how you might deal with it. Having to figure stuff out on your own is really difficult. You'll have experienced that like I said if you've not had a female boss from from from certain angle black individuals uh you know will see that if they don't see black lawyers lower socioeconomic background working class will say I just can't see myself there or I can't in in accent biases way I can't hear myself in those rooms yeah do I belong?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Yeah so powerful okay so there may be people listening who are thinking this Tom is incredibly inspiring.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:05

I want to do some stuff like this what advice would you give firms looking to start a mentoring program um and and just look at doing stuff differently um I mean just do it is is I I know I know and that's I'm not a slogan for Nike but um I mean literally you will learn more a hundred times more by taking that first step doing it and learning as you go than you know again one thing I have learnt without getting absolutely shot at here one thing I have learnt of of spending nearly a decade around lawyers now is you know do like to talk about stuff do like to plan stuff do like to make sure that every angle is covered before you take that first step and actually I've seen people talk themselves out of stuff. Ian Blatherick who was managing partner um prior to to Richards uh Richard took over uh at the almost you know crazy time of um of of uh May 2020 um but Ian Blatherwick when he um talks about me removing the academic grades he said thank goodness you didn't ask um because we'd have absolutely talked you out of it so I think that tells you um you know for me take the first step um there is a lot more collaboration out there than I think sometimes people think um I mean without trying to cause myself a an astronomical amount of work if anyone's interested come and ask me I will openly tell you and support you where I get my energy where my team and I believe the firm gets their energy is helping shape an industry or a profession. You know we're greedy you know for some which is a nice thing in this way in this circumstance you know we don't just want to change the the the four walls of Brown Jacobson we want to help society as a whole so you know lots of um lots of collaboration opportunities out there lots of open um free support certainly from myself um you know if you want to look a bit wider um certainly on social mobility um the Social Mobility Foundation um the Social Mobility Commission uh they have and Progress Together is another um uh a charity out there they have so many free toolkits of how to do these things you know step by step templates all the things that can be difficult and time consuming resource wise to set up they provide all of these things for free so there's three great examples but you know it would be I am not going to get to the end of my career um and have a single regret about I didn't share this I didn't share that if I if I do that I genuinely think I've failed.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Well I don't think anyone can say you've failed Tom what you've done is amazing. All right so you've spoken about social mobility let's let's spend a um the last few minutes uh talking about social mobility I know you've spoken to the House of Lords been advocating around having um socioeconomic economic backgrounds as a protected characteristic um I mean are there you know are the is government and the regulators moving fast enough on this stuff what what difference would that even make to people?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

I mean it's interesting um I've I actually got a um I actually got an email last week um and I do still need to go back to it um uh there's an MP's drop-in session on that exact topic uh taking place at the start of December um and it's going to be fascinating to to sort of hear from MPs about you know making uh class of protected characteristic and it's it's something that I I mean it would change the game incredibly and I'm still you know I am not an academic um researcher on the topic of social mobility there are plenty of people out there and and you know the language can be so complex that it's you've actually lost you know kind of what it is but obviously at the moment the way that class is effectively defined you know is is lower uh socioeconomic background intermediate and professional and the way that you are categorized into that is okay you know roughly at the age of 14 what did what was the main household income um uh earners uh job and there are job categories those categories feel very dated at the moment um you know for example in a world where you know you've got influencers and online you know kind of gig economy you know where does that role fit in so it what it's very difficult to say you know the government are making the right noise that they are going to do it yeah I believe, you know, from everything I've I've been told by the end of this parliament, um, you know, they intend to do it. Um I I'm not uh I'm not that I don't follow politics that closely, um and it's quite hard to ever get a clear answer from a politician, as I'm sure you know. Um but I think if they do decide to do it, it will be a great thing. It will be a great thing. Um where it would go to and what would be required um you know, just to even put in place, well, how do you categorize somebody into you know into something that you know that would be an astronomical debate? Um but I'm just grateful the conversations even being had. Um ten years ago, and even today, you know, there are people who don't even think social mobility is a thing. They don't they're like, this is just something made up. Uh and it's you know, there's always going to be a difference of opinion, there's always going to be a different um of what is and isn't a priority. I genuinely believe if if um you know socioeconomic background is is made uh the tenth uh protected characteristic, um it will absolutely change the game and and properly level up uh you know the opportunities uh that are out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

All right, let's finish up with a couple of quick fire questions. Uh if you had a magic wand and you could make one systemic change across the professional world tomorrow, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

Oh, that's a good one. Um I think I think my natural, I mean, you know, the thing that comes straight away to my mind um is to stop asking at all levels, and I mean all levels, um, stop asking for experience of you have to have worked in this sector. Um, it's so limiting. Um, there's so much amazing talent with such a different voice and and an opinion to bring that would enhance your businesses. I I think you know, if you've got recruitment processes or interviews are geared towards um, you know, oh, I want you to have had legal or professional services experience. I'd love that to be banned.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

And on social mobility, what's the one thing you would ask professional services firms to do differently?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:31

I mean, it would be too easy to say take all your grades off. Um, I mean, the thing is, it's so easy to do. I don't understand why you wouldn't. Um, I'd love to I would love to see that happen. Um, just go on and see the potential in somebody, not the polish. Um, for me, if you do that, uh the it will change the game for you for your for you for you, for your clients and for the industry.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:58

And a last question uh to all the young people out there who might be listening, who might think that a career in law or finance or professional services of any isn't an option for them. What advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

Um do you know it's I would take I would take your time is what I would say to them. Um I mean I recently had surgery on my back, um, and it was the first time in circa 20 plus years that I'd had a quite a significant chunk of time out. And I live my life at work, everything is thrown at you at 100 miles an hour, um, you know, and you you you you you cope the best you can and you do the best you can. Um but what was a shock for me was you know, I be I almost in those four or five weeks that I was off, you know, I became absolutely addicted to social media on my phone. And and I couldn't believe even with my experience, my you know, my comfort at you know being able to do what I can do. I started to feel like I was like, I'm I'm I'm losing ground here, I need to get back to work, you know. So social media is telling me, you know, this is what success looks like, this is this. It was absolutely mind-consuming. And I can only imagine for those young, aspiring professionals out there who are, you know, significantly involved in the social channels, you've got to try and understand that that isn't real life. You know, it puts a huge pressure on you to define what success looks like or achievement. So for me, my absolute piece of advice is take your time. You know, you're going to have to work for a lot of years, um, and you've got to find somebody that you're going to enjoy, it's going to support you. Um, but this legal profession, the professional service profession, is for everybody. Um, there is a place for you. Don't sell yourself short simply to get a foot in the door. Take your time and be comfortable saying no to potentially some offers if you do not feel like that is a place in which you can flourish.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:13

Excellent advice, Tom. Thank you so much for joining me today. I knew it would be a brilliant conversation and it really has been.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:20

It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me, Philippa.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

Oh, it's been a joy. I mean, just hearing about the incredible work you're doing and also your thinking and frankly your courage behind it has been just so inspiring for me. I think you've you've shown us that the the changes in the face of a profession isn't about small tweaks around the edges, it's about challenging assumptions, reimagining systems, and measuring progress with honesty and ambition. And whether it's creating pathways for students who've never stepped inside a law firm before or pushing for policy changes at the highest level, you've proven that social mobility isn't just a side project. It can be a core part of a firm's identity and the impact. So, to our listeners, if you're in a position to open the door for someone else, this conversation is your invitation to do it with intention and with generosity, because when opportunity is fair, everyone rises. Thank you for listening. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, please do share it with a colleague or a friend who cares about the future of our professions and the role we are all making um or playing in making money a force for good. Until next time, keep asking good questions and keep up doing the good work. Thanks again, Tom. It has been a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:49

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