Lessons in Joyful Covenant Marriage

What does it look like to build a marriage that lasts a lifetime—and is full of joy along the way?

In this episode, I’m joined by Nancy Wilson to glean from fifty years of marriage. We talk about the early years, navigating challenges, cultivating cheerfulness, and what it means to be a wife who strengthens her husband and builds a life-giving home. Whether you’re newly married or years into the journey, this episode will encourage you to pursue a better, more faithful story in your marriage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

What kind of story does your marriage tell? Is it one of love, joy, and thanksgiving? Or is it one of hardship, strife, and disunity? Often many enter into marriage with a naive and entitled view that every chapter will be one endless string of bliss. However, most of the time, the marriages that we see in society are chapter after chapter of drifting and quiet resentment. It's easy to blame these hardships exclusively on our husbands. But a careful look at scripture reveals that wives have a very critical role to play in a successful marriage. Every wife is a character in her marriage story, and the story she tells reflects what she believes about the gospel. Through the love of a husband and wife, God's covenant love is displayed to the world in a tangible way. A godly wife is meant to be a picture of the submission and sacrifice of Christ. Through her faithfulness, her respect, and loving responsiveness to her husband, she is said to be a glory and a crown that reflects the glory of Christ. In other words, wives, your marriage isn't just about you. Your marriage is intended to ripple out echoes of covenant love that will impact your children, your grandchildren, and future generations to come. A marriage story like this isn't written in the big milestones. It's written in the daily tone, the words that are spoken, and the habits that shape all those mundane moments in between. In this episode, we will discuss how we can build habits as wives that shape the kind of legacy that transform future generations. We will talk about what does it look like to be a wife who is a joy to be married to? What does it look like to tell a better story in marriage? And how can you, as a wife, be a good character in that story? The legacy of your future generations depends on this. So how can you, dear listener, be the kind of wife who your grandchildren will one day look back on and call blessed? It's been a little bit since our last episode. Unfortunately, we've been having some equipment issues, and the last episode I did has to be re-recorded, so stay tuned for that. Anyway, all that is to say that this has pushed out our current series on how to live a better story a little bit and delayed our upcoming series on beauty. But we've still got two really good episodes in the How to Live a Better Story series, including today's episode on marriage. So today we will be discussing how to live a better story in our marriages, and we'll be especially focusing on the kind of legacy we will be leaving through them. But before we jump into today's conversation, just a reminder that if you haven't yet, you need to go over to keeping the citadel.com and subscribe to our quarterly magazine. By the time this episode airs, you will still have time to sign up for our summer issue, which is going to be so good. So pause this episode right now and go over and sign up. The summer issue is going to be very practical and focused on how to persevere in those mundane moments of our lives as women. There's going to be articles on homeschooling multiple children, discipling teens, fitness for women, and just so much other good stuff. So I know you guys will find it super encouraging and helpful. Orders for the summer issue close May 15th, so don't wait. Also, if this podcast has encouraged you, I'd be so grateful if you take a moment to subscribe, leave a review, and please share with your friends. It truly helps us reach more women and encourage them to embrace their God-given roles with purpose, conviction, and joy. With that out of the way, let's get into today's conversation. Today I am so excited to introduce a very special guest, a woman who I'm sure has been a Titus II mentor in many of your lives as well as mine. And that is Nancy Wilson. Nancy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you, Heather. Happy to be here. I'm going to see you. Yes, you too. Yeah. It's such an honor to have you here. Nancy, um, as I just said, your books and talks have had a profound impact on my life, especially your book on contentment. But getting to glean from afar from your wisdom has been such a blessing. So it's really amazing to get a chance to share this time with you today. Great. Thank you. I'm ready. Oh, good. So, Nancy, for those who don't know you, would you mind introducing yourself, sharing a little bit about who you are, who you're married to, um, your story, just to uh give our listeners a little bit of an idea who you are. Okay, I'd be happy to.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

I'm Nancy Wilson. I'm married to Doug Wilson, who's a pastor. He's been a pastor for 50 years. So um we have had a long and I would say fruitful marriage. Three kids, 18 grandkids. Wow. And now one, two, three, four, five, five, five great grandkids with a couple more on the way. Oh, that's wonderful. It's a really fun time of life, I have to say. It our children are grown up. Uh, our oldest is a grandparent herself. She, Becca, and Ben are grandparents, which is such a joy to see. We are really enjoying that. It's the cutest thing. Oh. And uh, and so uh, we're just enjoying this phase. Doug is actually busier than ever. He's just hard at it. Yeah, he's up early and just hitting it all day long. So it's not like we're in retirement.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Yeah. We have a ways to go. That's that's wonderful. That's actually one of the things that I find so encouraging from you. And I've heard you speak a lot about looking forward to the um years after children and after raising children, and that there's just still so much work to be done. Absolutely. Yeah. That encourages me a lot because obviously I'm in the stage right now of raising kids, and I just think it's the best thing ever. I never want it to end. And how many do you have, Heather? I have two. I have two. My oldest is just about to turn 13, and my youngest is uh 10 and a half. Okay. Yeah. But knowing that there's so much good work to be done even after this stage is just really encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Well, and God has prepared good works in advance for us to walk in. Yeah. And so we know that. And it's not like there is up until a certain point, and then he didn't create any more good works for us. It's like it's over. Yeah. So we can assume that there's still more to be done.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Yes. Always. Yeah. That's good. Well, let's go ahead and jump in to our interview. All right. So when you look back over your 50 years of marriage, we're going to be talking about marriage today, for those who are listening. But when you look back over your 50 years of marriage, what do you see as the foundational ingredients that made your marriage not merely endure, but flourish? All right.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Well, obvious, you know, the answer is obvious. And that is the faithfulness of God, obviously. And then just really trying to do what he says. I think that's what has made us flourish, is that we know what God's standards are. And so just endeavoring to do what he says and do it cheerfully unto him. And so he's faithful. He's the reason we are still married and and as you say, flourishing. I hope so, but we're having a good time. And and we uh see so much good around us in our community and our kids and our grandkids and just what God is doing world over with the gospel. So it's obviously the gospel that makes us flourish, otherwise, we just would be, you know, dry up like a dead twig and blow away, being nothing. So I know that that he just he's with us every single day and grants wisdom when we're asking and guides us and we can trust him and he's everything.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

So amen. Amen. Yeah, and in your anniversary video that you guys just released on Canon, which was for your 50th anniversary. Yes, happy, happy anniversary. Thank you. That's such an accomplishment. It was so much fun. It was really a fun party. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad. That's wonderful. Well, one of my favorite parts on this video that you guys did was when Pastor Wilson said that despite the many challenges that you both have encountered through the years, it wasn't 50 years of hardship when he thinks back on it. He said he called it a rollicking good time. Right. Right. Yeah. And so how do couples cultivate that type of fun in married life?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Boy, I think it's just cultivating a sense of humor, not being so dead earnest all the time. It's so serious, but just seeing the humor in so much of life. And then, of course, a good dose of funny stories. You know, are because we love stories and we read our kids' stories and we told stories around the dinner table, it was almost like a challenge every night for everyone to tell their story. Our three kids. You know, who's first? Doug would say, wait, wait, okay, one at a time. But they always had funny stories from school and every single day. And they just have a good eye for humor. And so we just had a home full of, you know, real characters. And we just we just had fun. I don't know. We um we didn't legislate fun, like okay, now everyone, we're gonna do something fun. It was just life is funny. I mean, it is pretty funny, and all the funny things little kids do, and then as they start becoming storytellers and love telling funny ones, they just see the comedic and so much. And I just you know, I can just remember them just seeing someone on the way home from school that was doing something funny and needing to report it. So I think they were all maybe entertainers at heart and wanted to entertain us, but then you know, reading P.G. Woodhouse, uh, his hilarious stories, uh, Patrick McManus, so funny. Okay, I haven't heard of him. He's a Idaho uh very funny writer. He has passed away now, but he had some very funny books on camping and hunting um that are just so funny. Okay, and when our kids were in college, well, let's see, and so Patrick McManus, I don't even know if they're still in print, but it when the kids were in college, Doug would start um on Friday nights. He would we have a he started helped start a Christian college here, New St. Andrews College for our kids. And it when it was just getting started, it was pretty small. So on Fridays, they have a disputadio, and he would stand up, they're all gathered, and say, You're all invited to our house, eight o'clock. And there was nowhere else for them to go really. Now there are other things in town and more happening, but we couldn't fit them in our house, no. But they would a bunch of them would come over. And one of the things we would do, we would sing some psalms, we'd have refreshments, there'd be visiting time. And then Doug would say, anybody want to hear, you know, a story, come down the basement. That's where the family room was. And he would read Patrick McMahon's stories or PG Woodhouse stories, and I love hearing him read them because he gets so cracked up as he's reading them. And he read them there, he's read them outside in our front yard, he's just read them, you know, and and we just had a culture at home and extended, you know, of just enjoying the humor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Some of these stories. That's so great. But yeah, I I mean, it just comes through you guys so much. Even when we are watching Doug on some type of video, my husband and I always love so much when he's kind of chuckling to himself. He gets cracked up. I know.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

And I we just think it's so great. Like, even on a recent podcast where he was being uh really targeted and accused of things, he cracked up. Like one of the uh men said, I refuse to call you a pastor, you're not a pastor. And Doug laughed and said, Well, 50 years isn't enough. How long do I have to do this before you? You know, he doesn't take things personally like that and get offended and huffy. You know, he just it's not in his nature. So I think he's responsible for the tone. I hope that I helped it along, but and I enjoy humor also, but he is just he's just funny.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

That's so wonderful. Well, I would love to hear about those early years, lean finances, raising children, pioneering new ventures. What did trusting God together look like in those seasons? And how did you manage to maintain a content heart with everything that you guys were facing?

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Well, I think I was I was in school. I mean, I was learning, you know, that um learning contentment. I was learning to trust the Lord. It I'm not gonna say, oh, it was a breeze. It was so easy. It's like, oh, no, it was it was challenging, and yet time and again, seeing God answer prayers over and over is very uh faith-building. So you just think, well, God will provide. God's gonna, He's never had us, we've never missed a meal because we had nothing. You know, we had some pretty creative dinners. But we never suffered, you know, we really didn't. We got our bills paid and you know, we survived. So it's it's it's good to trust the Lord. It's just so good to. And just because you are during a lean time, like sure, you can trust the Lord in lean times, but you should be trusting him all the time and thanking him for his provision every day. That's what we do when we thank God for the food or thank God for the podcast, his provision. And uh, you know, we had some great stories, and Doug grew up with some pretty great stories in his family of the Lord providing. His mom is in a missionary, his dad was in the ministry. There was a time they didn't really have a salary, and so, you know, just seeing the Lord provide. My favorite story is when he was five, um, they were out of milk and out of bread. And he was the oldest, so there were two more uh younger. And his parents just felt like they were new at this, and they asked Doug to pray because they thought he might have more faith than they did. So he was five years old, four or five, and so they asked him to pray for milk and bread. So he prayed and then they thanked the Lord, and literally, like within a few minutes, the doorbell rang, and there was a milkman standing there who said, Congratulations, you've won a year's supply of milk. And so I just think for a little kid to just see those kinds of answers, is he ever gonna doubt that God will provide? And and later, his mom was a dusty and lifted up a a lamp, and there was a five-dollar bill or ten dollar bill under the lamp. Um and that took care of the bread. So milk. Pray for milk, and you get a whole year's supply. I mean, that that is the most remarkable answer of prayer I can imagine, you know, for a little kid to see with his own eyes and remember that's how God likes us to ask.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

So I just love that. I how faith-building that must have been for him. Absolutely. Yes, that's all of them. Yeah. Yeah. So something that's really inspired me so much when I've listened to your teaching is how you speak of the need for wives to take risks and how wives should not be risk-averse or make it their aim for their husband to maintain a perfectly predictable and stable future with their husbands. I know, like you were just saying, you've lived this out many times in your own marriage. What did it look like for you to support your husband in risky callings and just those small beginnings that you faced together? Well, um, you mean things like where his safety was threatened? Or what do you mean by risky? Yeah, I mean risk or just knowing that you were entering into a um maybe a financial risk venture, like where you guys were starting a school and um or uh facing lots of opposition from people who are critical of you guys, you know. Um, I think all these things are things that can make wives very nervous.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Well, there's been I mean, there have been plenty of times where I've had to get under, get under God's feet, trust him again. Uh, don't give way to fear. It's you have to practice doing that in order to get good at it. I don't think I'm good at it, but that getting under God's feet is such a good image from I believe it's from the rare jewel of Christian contentment by Jeremiah Burroughs. It's like get under, under soul, get under God's feet, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah, I actually I have that book right here.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Okay, okay, yeah. Everybody should get good job, good job. Well, it's early on, I believe that quote is, and it's such a good image. Um, when we were taking care of Doug's dad for four years, we moved in with him and he was on hospice care, and it gradually got, you know, when we first moved in, he needed help, but not full-time help, just different help. And it but it gradually increased. And toward the end, when um I couldn't leave, I needed to be there at the house because we couldn't leave him alone, and somebody came to take care of him or visit him or something, I'd take a quick walk, and that would be my theme. I'm getting under, I'm getting under because I could start feeling that antsiness of just being confined, you know, because be I didn't want to leave him by himself, but you can't always have someone else there, and so it was just that getting hold of contentment, thanking the Lord, just getting under his feet, trusting him, and coming back ready to go again. You know, so um I think that's been really helpful when there are uh things I'm concerned about that he's doing, you know, it's um same thing. Lord, he's in your hands, you've numbered his days. I can't do it. And just being thankful and not worrying about it. You know, I mean, it's some I think we'll be practicing that. I mean, I will be practicing that. I don't know if Doug ever has worried. He's just it's not his temperament, I mean, honestly. But I think it's something I'll be learning, relearning all my days, you know, and because fresh opportunities, the more people in your life you love, the more uh Opportunities to worry about them, right? Yeah. And so it's like letting go. God has this, you know, trusting him and pressing on. So risky things. It's just hunger down and wait for God's blessing. Um there were times I would even facing another Sabbath dinner with 40 put people coming. Yeah. And it's Saturday morning. And I remember I'd go back in my room and I'd say, I'm going to get a running start with with God. I can leap over a wall. You know, I can do it. I love that. I would Doug would, I'd say, honey, come on, we gotta pray because I just see how much I had to get done before dinner at six o'clock. And and I was in dead earnest. Like, let's pray that I can leap over a wall. And and um in a way it's funny too. The image is funny and encouraging and true. Like, okay, and it's I wanted to do Sabbath, I wasn't unhappy. It's just like a challenge. All right, here we go. And there are lots of those. I'm sure you have them too. All kinds of things that come up where you think, well, with God, I can scale a wall, or I can leap over the a wall. And uh and that's an image of warfare. Yeah, of scaling a wall, a city wall. But with God, if if David could look at a wall like that and and think, well, with God I can leap over it. Well, we can look at Sabbath dinner or whatever it is, whatever the obstacle is.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

He'll get to the case. I love how your your answer for how to meet those challenges and risks is the same, regardless, it's if it's sending your husband out into a dangerous situation, or if it's something like hosting a large group and not knowing if you have the energy to make it happen. Only two of these. Yeah. But I mean, from that, that's a pretty wide spectrum of the kind of challenges and and risks that that we face as wives. But the answer is still the same as getting under that sovereignty of God and and also what I think too is just not having any mind for the fear of man and what opposition we might face from them in terms of um, you know, when they're against us that that we have the Lord. And that gives us a confidence that that makes us able to scale a wall, like you were saying.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah. So it's not a secret, like secret knowledge we have to find or yes, this secret passage in the in the Bible that will, aha. You know, it's just the basic, it's basic Christian living. It's trusting Jesus, it's confessing our sins. You know, in other words, Lord, forgive me for being fearful or grumpy or reluctant or worried, you know, whatever it is. Now help me to apply your word, trust you, and and please you with how I'm trusting. So it's, I think sometimes we want to find the secret, you know, the little secret um motto, or I don't know, how turn around 10 times and jump three times. And then, you know, I mean or even little trick.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah, or or reaching a certain age or season of life where we will somehow have arrived. I I I know this isn't something you just started doing recently. This is something you've been putting into practice from the time you were young.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yes. Well, I was converted in college, so I was still young, but not as young as you know, as my children growing up in a Christian home. Yeah. But it's just that seeing God work so faithfully. You know, how can we doubt him? So I think learning to preach to yourself a little bit, talk to yourself, don't listen to yourself, don't listen to all your fears and so forth. Talk to yourself, tell yourself something, you know, that you know is true and get yourself out of it.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

That's good. Like, come on. So uh I'd like to move into just some practical wisdom for wives. What makes a woman a joy to be married to? Well, not being a grumpy gus.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah. You know, not being, you know, where every time he leaves the house, he's leaving her in tears. And then when he gets home, she's complaining about the day and all the things he didn't do and all of her needs that he's not meeting. I mean, it there's so many ways we can sin. Yeah. But instead, making a point of sending him out cheerfully, you know, welcoming him home again, cheerfully, how was your day, rather than dumping on him, you know, gathering up all the stuff to dump the load up, you know, unload the truck when he gets home. So talk to God about it, those little bumps during the day, and pray for your husband that uh whatever he's got going that day, be uh re give him a good report of how your day went. Um instead of the negativity and self-centeredness and the glass is a half empty instead of half full. Here's the list of all the things that went wrong. Exactly. Yeah. Or all the things you don't have, or all the things you didn't you can't possibly do, or um just to learn to be more pleasant to be around. And I think a big chunk of respecting your husband is just encouraging him. You know, instead of just being self-centered, being husband-centered. And it's not your job to make sure he is.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's really good. Uh yeah, a lot of this makes me think too, just of the strength that this is true, feminine strength, where we are learning how to laugh and have joy and take these things in a stride and not be just in a constant state of overwhelm. And yeah. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Yeah. And not freak out when something happens. Um, things go wrong. Yeah. Um things break. You know, just accidents happen and so forth. And to not be um the alarmist. But pray you can just walk through it by God's grace. But I think just acknowledging Him at the moment, like, Lord, help me to handle this, steward this in a way that pleases you. Help me not to give way to fear or anxiety or worry, etc.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Um, help me to just stay calm and not react, but act, don't react. Yeah, I think emotional self-control is probably one of the biggest ways that we can be a blessing to our husbands.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Of course, sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah. Yeah. So something that I've heard you speak of, and I just think is such a needed bit of wisdom for women today is the importance of making your husband look good. Why is this so important? And how can a wife practically put this into practice? Well, what do you mean by make him look good? You tell me what you mean by that. Well, I would say making it so that he is respected. So when um I know for me, when I think about this, is the way I carry myself, um, or the way I speak about him to others, um, making sure that he is successful in what mission the Lord has given him and that he is set up in where I'm not making his life harder. Um, but where when people look at him, they see that he is well taken care of, that he isn't um having unnecessary burdens and just You nailed it. That's great. Well, yeah. What would you add to that?

SPEAKER_01 30:45

That was great. Yeah, I think when we respect our husbands, others will too. When we're downgrading them, uh I've shared this before in somewhere, but one of the first Bible studies I went to as a married woman, I was shocked. I was just so shocked because first of all, I'd only been a Christian, let's see, I was um converted in 73, married in 75, so I was a young Christian. And the first little wives' Bible study I went to, everyone went around and complained about her husband. And I remember I was being kind of naive, but I thought, man, they all got crummy husbands. I'm the only one that got a good one. You know, I wonder why they married those guys. But then I realized, no, this is what women do for just entertainment is complain. So I just thought, if I'm gonna speak about my husband, I'm not going to share his faults or weaknesses or things. Uh why would I do that?

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

It's like how rude. Do I want him to do that? You know he and so I just think having a wife who is considerate and would not dream of saying unkind things about him, either to his face or to other people, that's big. That's really big. And I'm not responsible like for every detail. Obviously, he's a grown man, his own calling, his own responsibilities, but I can pray for him. I can make sure he's got clean socks. You know, he doesn't have to worry about that. He's got a fresh shirt in the closet. You know, he can just go because I I like that, that I can facilitate, I can help him do the mission. He's he's called to the mission. And I'm like the supply line, you know, not the ultimate one. God is the ultimate one, but it's like I'm keeping him able to go do the mission. That makes sense. Oh, yes, yeah. No, that's so good. So he doesn't have to gather up clothes and go to the laundromat and figure out what he's, you know, I I got it.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Let me do that. Yeah, I was just thinking, I I can imagine that with you being married to a pastor, his line of work is also um coinciding with your social life, your community. And so the things that you say about him, the way you speak about him, the way you interact with him, uh, it very much will impact his both his job and your your social life in your community. But I know for me, my my husband, he commutes. I I've never even been to his job site because it's two hours away. Um so I don't really have an opportunity per se to um just speak well of him to like employers uh or for them to see that. But I know that something I try to be mindful of is just in our own community, in our church community, in our family, in our relationships with friends, that I think um it just makes such a difference the way that a wife speaks about her husband and whatever. Yeah, yeah. I I know I hear even just something simple that I hear a lot is when women are complaining about their husband having a man cold and they are making fun of him for being sick and needing to take it easy. And I just can't stand that because I have never heard that. That is Are you serious? That, yeah, I I hear maybe it's my generation, I don't know, but this is something that I hear wives say a lot where they're um just kind of it's like in fun, where they think they're they're being funny, making fun of their husband because he's exhausted or whatever from having a cold, and they're like, oh, he has a man cold. When I'm sick, I do this and this and this. And I'm like, just be quiet. You are that is so disrespectful and dishonoring to your husband and demeaning.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

And it's very, it's very conceited, but it's also it's like if you're one flesh, it's you know, when you're insulting your husband, you're insulting yourself. Like I like I left that Bible study thinking, boy, they all married jerks and I got a good one. You know? Um it's pretty pitiful.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Yeah. So that's that's just something I would I would add to that as well. Right. Yeah. So how uh should wives think about bringing concerns or disagreements to their husbands in a way that is wise and respectful and honoring? Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Well, if you have a good, healthy relationship already, you're in fellowship, you are, in other words, you're running on all cylinders, the marriage is healthy. Well, you can bring things like that. Uh you can wait for the right time or say, something I'd like to talk to you about, when's a good time? You know, not barging in and dropping the bomb or whatever, but make an appointment, you know, just not technically an appointment, but just say when you have some free time, I have a concern I'd like to talk to you about. But pray about it first and make sure it's not camouflaged as just criticism. Yeah. Um, and when you are critical, of course you can say, honey, I was hard on you. Please forgive me. That was rude. I was annoyed or whatever. Confess your sin. We all stumble in many ways. So when you're bringing something, I'd say pray about it first. Pray about it for a few days first, uh-huh. And then say, Do I really need to bring this up? Or is it fine? You know, was I just in a mood or something? You know, just give it some time. And if you do, then bring it respectfully, kindly, not dumping on him, and just have it say, would you just consider this? Would you pray about it? Don't turn it into a big shazam.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah, that's really or it doesn't need to be. Something else that I think is helpful is to, if there is a time where you do need to, or you find yourself going to your husband with some type of question or concern. Something that I try to do is follow up after with was I being respectful and being willing to hear back if I wasn't. And my husband is is a very humble and forgiving man. And so I want to make sure that I am following up with, did you think that it was that was an appropriate thing for me to bring up? Should I have left that unsaid? Was that um critical or discouraging? And I could I have phrased that better. And having enough humility and um, you know, I guess not being so sensitive to being willing to hear if he is actually gonna say, Well, you know, I don't think that was necessary for you to bring up, or you could have said that in a more respectful way. And so uh I think it's really important for us to have that humility of heart because there are gonna be times when we do need to go to our husbands, but I think we should always be endeavoring to be as respectful as we can and re-evaluating and not getting to a point where we think that we are just, you know, so wise and godly that we're never gonna be rude. Well, we're not the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Yeah. And the thing is you want to have a plan. Like when there's conflict, how are we going to handle it? Now, in the world, of course, in the Christian world, there are times when a woman just needs to call the pastor right now. Yes. Or call the cops right now. Yeah, there's times for that. In a in a godly marriage where there's two Christian people who really want to live for God and do it right, you know, there will still be bumps. So it's having a plan. It's like, well, this is how we're going to do it. And we mapped that out early on when we were first married. And it really helped. It was like training wheels. We had a bunch of rules, which we don't even have to think about anymore. But for instance, um if we had a bump, that's what we called them. Just a bump, um, we would not separate until it was fixed. And if somebody was coming to the door, we wouldn't answer the door until it was fixed. And neither of us would leave until it was fixed, even if the other person would be late. You know, um so because we had those standards, we got so we if we had a bump, we could get it fixed in like seconds. Yes. Because we that's just what we did. Yeah. And we had these rules in place, like this is how we're gonna do it. There will be bumps, especially for us in those early years. We were just learning how to walk and step. So lots of little bumps that now would probably we would laugh, like, what was that? You know. But we were also very fastidious because we wanted to always be in fellowship, united front, always in front of the kids, anywhere else. Just so we were very on it all the time, keeping short accounts and putting things right. So, but obviously, if it's a big, a big problem and a woman needs outside help, she should get it.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Yes, 100%. Yeah, yeah. I love that though, because when you have those habits in place in your marriage, you don't end up having some big thing accumulating that you guys end up having to deal with. Absolutely. Absolutely. You just know you're in step. Yeah. You're walking in step. That's good. So I'd like to move on to your Sabbath feasting and what a big part that was for your family culture. So, how did Sabbath feasting in particular strengthen your marriage?

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Strengthen our marriage.

unknown 41:33

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Well, I think anytime you are taking on a big project together, it's an opportunity to strengthen it. But I don't feel like it was weak and needed strengthening, so we were trying to find something. It's just in retrospect, sure, we were doing a big thing every Saturday night. And Doug was in charge of it, really. And he didn't care what I made for or, you know, that he wasn't in charge of the menu. I don't mean that, but he was the one who kicked it off, who um, you know, was the master of ceremonies.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Okay, so can you describe a little bit more of what you mean by that? Like, was he sending the invitations? Or how did that what did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

All right, no. So what I mean is when we would confer on guests, of course, I mean, but sometimes, like one time I was at the grocery store, I'd forgot something. And it was the afternoon of Sabbath, early afternoon, but I ran the grocery store and there were these two Korean men talking in the produce, it's not an aisle, but section, and they were talking in Korean, and then they'd weigh something, and then they'd get their calculators out, and you know, and so I just asked if they needed any help or you know, because it was they were like student age guys. And they're like, oh no, we're that we're just dividing up how much each of us owes, you know, for each apple that we're you know, they're divide they were just keeping track of how much money they were spending. Okay. Well, anyway, we talked for a minute. I ended up inviting them to Sabbath. I said, We're having dinner at six, you're welcome to come. Here's our address. And I didn't really know if they would show up. And they did.

unknown 43:28

They came.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

That's okay. So our Sabbath dinner was I tell you that story because our Sabbath dinner wasn't like formal invitations and things like we gathered people up. Um and our family, of course, and they might want to bring people, their family, like their their married in law family, or they might want you know, so it was a free floating kind of thing. Well, Doug is the master of ceremonies, everybody's gathered, then he He would do the kickoff. He would say, we'd start, and even now he still does this, even though it's at our daughter Rachel's house. She and Luke, her husband, they sponsor it most weeks, not every week, but by far and away the majority of the time. And uh they still want Doug to be the one to kick it off. And so we toast when we start, and he says, This is the day the Lord has made, and we all say we will rejoice and be glad in it. And and so then he might give the directions, like, if it's at the Jenks house, like Rachel, tell us what to do, you know, and so she'll explain it. So he was a master of ceremonies. I did learn we got a big long table. And I did learn that things went better if I sat next to him instead of at the other end. Because then you can communicate little messages here and there. Yes. So much uh it was like, why didn't I think of this sooner? So I would sit next to him and You didn't want to do sign language across the table. Yeah. Or just exactly. Not that there were big deal, uh, you know, big things coming up, but it just simplified everything. It's like, okay, I think you know, whatever. We had three high chairs for a while, so many little kids, crazy times happening. And then afterwards, he would usually get his guitar out when the kids were little and play silly songs and they'd run around the living room. So that's what I mean by the MC. Now, now he doesn't do that, you know, because we don't have that many. Our grandkids are adults, most of them. And uh, so it changes. But I knew it wasn't running on me. I'd get the dinner out there, but then he would be the master of ceremonies, and I could just chill.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

That's an answer your question. Oh, yeah, no, that's wonderful. I just love hearing about this because I know that um these things are things that people are trying to put into practice in their own home. After after we watched the documentary, what was it called on Canon? The one that you guys did on um the Sabbath that you did. I'm trying to remember.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Sorry. I don't remember either.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

I know I'm trying to blink on it right now, too. But it was it was the one that you guys did uh about Sabbath dinners.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

And we wanted to be happy Sabbath, you know, like happy Sabbath, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

So my husband and I yeah, we were so inspired by that. And I after that, we looked up his liturgy that he does with you guys every week. And my husband has taken a version of that and he he implements that with us every week. And so that's just one more way that you guys are blessing people, but it's been such a blessing to us as well. And well, it was fun when the kids were little, the grandkids.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

He could ask each one a question. Yeah, those days are long gone. No. But that's okay. We'll have lots of great grandkids, right? Yeah. So it's just a different era. It's uh, it's not set in stone, you know, it just is it has to adapt.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

That's good. I like that. Well, thank you for sharing that as well. Okay, so I recently listened to one of your grace agenda talks, which was so good. But one thing that really stood out to me was when you shared this quote from Puritan minister Thomas Brooks, and it said, Christians, the highway to comfort is to mind comfort less and duty more. And you expounded on this by saying that we as wives want the reward without the duty. We want the comfort of being a wife without the duties that come along with it. And I thought this was just such a profound perspective, especially for the modern day woman who really sees marriage as this institution that serves to benefit us and my needs and my wants. So what are some of the practical ways that a wife can think of her duties in marriage and actually take delight in them instead of resenting them?

SPEAKER_01 48:19

All right. Well, it's a high calling. You know, being a wife is a very high calling. And so, and I think we will share a lot of duties, certainly, but then we'll have unique duties depending on your husband, on your household. I mean, there's every situation is different. I mentioned we lived with Doug's dad. Well, it was his mom had passed away, his dad was he had people living with him, but they were moving out. And then Doug's brother Gordon and his wife moved in for a year. But I just remember him saying, you know, I think when Gordon and Meredith's house is done, we it's our turn. We should move in with dad. And I said, Okay, absolutely. I mean, that was he felt it was time for him, it was his duty for us to move in. That was a big change. You know, it was not a little minor adjustment. I'm sure. And but I saw it immediately and I was all for it. I mean, like, yes, absolutely. So it's he was fulfilling his duty as a firstborn son, and I was fulfilling my duty by being his support. Okay. And it was just a wonderful, I mean, that those four years were full of many new duties for me. And at the beginning there were duties that I thought, no, those are all, I'm not gonna do those. Somebody else can do those duties. But by the end, it's like, what was the big deal? I mean, it's not a problem. You know, whatever kinds of little things. Um so our duties change, but we just want to always just pick them up with both hands. If they're from the Lord, they're so good for our souls, you know, to do them and to stand fast in them and not gripe about them and complain. But yeah, like I said, even if you gotta get rebooted once in a while, like I'm gonna, I I need uh, you know, my tires are deflated. I need a little infusion here, pump, pump up. And obviously the Lord can do that, but we also had dear friends who would come in and help out so we could get away for a minute, you know, and and just have a little time away. So, but our duties are first to God always, and then husband and children, our parents, you know, our families, and then beyond that, our neighbors. I mean, you know, do unto others as you be done by, and love your neighbor, love your enemies. We have duties to our enemies. Yeah. So um as we fulfill them unto the Lord, then we're blessed. I mean, we're blessed. And so there's just some great passages about when men say all kinds of evil about you, rejoice and be glad, you know, because great is your reward in heaven. So our duty is to rejoice and be glad and laugh. You know what a privilege we get to have that as a duty. Right. Now, sometimes it isn't funny. I mean, I will grant that, yeah. But it is still, you know, sometimes it makes you cringe. It's like, oh but at the same time you have to think, but pity that person. Pity that person who is saying that and living that way, and you know, and don't let it just let it roll off your back. Don't don't hang on to it and nurture a hurt feeling or resentment. It's like, oh no. It's just like, Lord, you take that and bless that person, you know, and don't let it get under your skin, because that's what they want. That's the goal. So just remember, worry is an enemy, and worry wants to kind of burrow in and sour all the good things. And it's like, do not like you're out of here. So it's it's a it's a takes a bit of work, doesn't it, sometimes to dislodge a worry or a fear. But but with practice, we can get better at it.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Yeah, yeah. And I think it helps so much to remember what we're made for. That we are duty. We are yes, and we are made for pouring ourselves out for others that we don't exist here to serve ourselves. And just having that mindset really helps when it comes to these times, like that example you gave about having to lay down your life to take care of your elderly parents. Yeah. And I love that example, especially because that is just such a great reminder that you never outgrow your duties. Your duties aren't something that stop being required of you when you reach a certain age that the the Lord has duties for us to fulfill in every season.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

My mom was such a great example of this, and I've told this story before, but she and dad got married. World War II was not quite over, and they had a couple kids that he went off. He was wounded in World War II, but then he went off uh he was a pilot to the Korean War, and he was gone 18 months, and he wasn't just gone, he was flying bombing missions, you know. So he was in the a dangerous zone, and she had two little kids at home. And I said, Mom, you know, how did you handle that? And I knew from years before she told me she taught herself to knit, and she her first project was Argyle socks for my dad. The hardest possible thing. And then she taught herself to sew, and she made my older sister a little lined wool coat and hat or something. It's like she just went for the most difficult things right from the get-go. But anyway, I said, Mom, how did you do that when he was gone so long and you're home with two little kids? She said, Oh, Nancy, I was just doing my duty. That was it. Like, I wasn't doing anything special, just doing her duty. He was doing his, and that is such a wonderful attitude. I love that. I love that so much. She did not feel heroic or how let's write a book about me about how special I am because I, you know, I suffered through the separation. No, she just was doing her duty, and that's so humbling. It's so humbling. It truly is.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

She was just a very sweet lady, I tell you. I mean, just the taking it for granted, like, of course I'm going to do my duty. That is that's so opposite from the cultural mindset that we have today. So different. Really, if you're doing something like that, you are seen as this hero in your home. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

And I think my dad did come home once in the middle, so she saw him for a few days. And uh when he finally did get home, this has nothing to do with our topic, but it's a funny story. When he finally did get home, he was a California boy, he always took his shirt off, you know, when he got home. Relax, get out of the uniform. And he probably had a skivvy shirt on, you know, took his shirt off. And my brother, who was all of like two or three, said, Why are you taking your shirt off? You don't live here, you're a guest. That's funny. He's like, No, I'm your dad.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Oh, that's oh man, that's so funny. They got over that, but yeah, that's great. My my uh grandma's father also fought in World War II, and she had a similar experience when he came back, and she was four years old. So Yeah, yeah, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Right. Because not only were they separated, the only means of communication really was to write a letter and mail it. Yeah. And so it's not like today at all.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

No, yeah, we don't know how good we've got it.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Okay, so as you look at children, grandchildren, and the fruit of long obedience, what has surprised you most about God's covenant blessings? Oh my goodness, it gets just keeps getting better.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Hmm. Really sweeter and better. Um seeing our own children, you know, with families and seeing them steward and instruct and teach their kids, even through now courtships and you know, all the things. It's just I t well, I tell people being a great grandma is like being up higher in the bleachers. You can see more up there, but you're further from the action, you know, and you're out of the action in many ways, but just getting to see the fruit of their lives now as even grandparents, but as adults and with children coming into adulthood, their children, you know, it's just a tremendous buzzing. Yeah, the view up here is great, it's really good. And seeing them be wise parents and helping their kids through their own, you know, issues or whatever, not issues, but challenges, maybe. Yeah, yeah. Um choices they're making, and you know, it's just really delightful.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

That's wonderful. And what what a rich blessing that you guys get to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

It is, it it truly is. And our church is just wonderful. We have so many dear friends, and the church is well staffed, and you know, we just have a great support squad looking after each other. And uh, so it's beyond our family. Really, the church community is just stalwart and wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

When my husband and I were watching the segment of um you and Pastor Wilson and your 50-year anniversary. Oh, yeah. Uh something that we were talking about after is how you mentioned that you didn't even start your Sabbath tradition or the the Sabbath feasting tradition until I believe Becca was just married, right? Or engaged, yeah. Yeah. And and I was like, what things do we have to look forward to? Because so we're coming up on 15 years of marriage, which feels like a long time to us. Yeah. But you know, we we're still very young. And for all we know, if the Lord blesses us with a long life, we might still be married for a really long time. So it's exciting to think about what there is to come. But you're getting a real head start on us.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

I hope so. Now it's dinner already. It's so great.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Yeah, yeah. It's it's wonderful. All right. So as we come to a close, for those of us younger wives, can you share just some last bit of wisdom that you would like to leave us with today? All right.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Um don't take yourself too seriously. You know, it's not all about you. Yeah. And just and so always say, what's God's perspective on this? You know, um and I just say enjoy each day and be thankful. And I'm giving you a lot of things. I'm just off the top of my head, but go for it. Use every day to be, you know, a positive blessing to your family. And don't waste time. Hit it. Yeah, I love it. Be in the word, of course. Be Bible readers. That's the first importance.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

So thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you so much. It has been such a joy having you on today. I know that our listeners are going to be so blessed and encouraged by this, and I just really appreciate you taking the time to be here today. Okay. Thank you. Blessings. Thank you. You too. All right, friends, I hope you enjoyed that interview today. If you found this episode helpful, please be sure to share with friends and don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. If you have any questions or would like to just send a brief message, you can also send a text through the podcast app. Before you sign off, though, let me send you out with a charge to go forth today in your calling. In a world of broken marriages, a cheerful woman is no small thing. She is a light shining in the darkness. Proverbs 31.25 says, She is clothed with strength and dignity. She can laugh at the days to come. Your marriage is not just about your happiness, it is about covenant faithfulness that echoes into generations. Cultivating joy as a wife is spiritual warfare. It is a sign of the courage and strength of a woman of true valor. Remember today that you have the opportunity to tell a better story in your marriage, to leave a better legacy for your children. Don't get stuck in the hardship of the moment. Embrace each challenge as training for the road ahead and then laugh at the days to come. Will you be the crown on your husband's head? Or will you be the drip that drives him to the corner of the roof? Perhaps you haven't been the kind of woman whose husband can safely trust in. If that's been you, take courage to your heart. With the strength of Christ, you can start being that wife today. Take responsibility, repent to the Lord and to your man, and then walk forward in the grace of one who has been redeemed. Choose this day what kind of character you will be. Don't just admire the marriages of those who have gone before you. Resolve to build your own today. And until next time, embrace your high calling, live a better story, and keep the flame of your citadel burning brightly.