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The Keeping the Citadel Podcast
The Keeping the Citadel Podcast exists to embolden women to transform their homes and their lives into shining citadels for the glory of Christ and the spread of His Kingdom.
The Keeping the Citadel Podcast
Beauty & Hope in the Midst of Miscarriage & Infertility
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Miscarriage. Infertility. Waiting. These are some of the deepest sorrows a woman can experience—and yet they are not beyond the redeeming hand of God.
In this episode, I'm joined by Katie Bailey to talk about the beauty God brings through suffering. Together we discuss miscarriage, infertility, grief, waiting on the Lord, and learning to trust His sovereign plan even when it looks different than we imagined. Through her own story of profound loss, she shares how God has faithfully met her in the darkest valleys and gently transformed sorrow into hope.
If you are walking through heartbreak, longing for children, or wrestling to understand God's purposes in suffering, my prayer is that this conversation will remind you that He is near to the brokenhearted, faithful in every season, and working all things together for His glory and your good.
Every heart knows its own bitterness, and every heart has bitterness to know. Sin must bring sorrow. Tears are the inheritance of earth's children. But in the city to which we are going, God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away. Blessed be your dear name, O Lord, for this strong consolation, this good hope through grace. Tears may and must come, but if they gather in the eyes that are constantly looking up to you in heaven, they will glisten with the brightness of coming glory. Quote from Susanna Spurgeon. A big focus of what we talk about here at Keeping the Citadel pertains to motherhood. And rightly so, for it is one of the main purposes that God has created for us as women. However, what about the woman who dreams of being a mother and yet the Lord has closed her womb? Or the mother who longs to grow her family and have more children, but suffers from miscarriage or secondary infertility. These are the painful realities that are a result of the fall. Because of the sin of our first parents, the path of our parenthood is still marred by the curse of sin and death. It is with pain that we bring children into this world. And it is with pain that our children sometimes leave sooner than we hope. How can a Christian woman hold on to hope in the midst of such brokenness? What is there to conclude when the good gift of children seems to be withheld? In times like these, many women find themselves wrestling with the tension of knowing that the gift that they are praying for is good, and yet the Lord has seen fit instead to entrust them with a hard providence of grief and loss. In this episode, we discuss the painful process of miscarriage and infertility, and how, despite the ever-present ache that it leaves, we as Christians have much reason to hope. Although we still live under the curse of sin, we also live with resurrection hope. Knowing that one day, he shall wipe all tears from our eyes, and there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, for the former things will have passed away. These words are not just empty platitudes. These are real, tangible truths that we have to hold on to. If you are a woman who has struggled with the pain of miscarriage or infertility, my hope and prayer is that this episode would be a bomb to your soul. Though we grieve, we do not grieve as the world does. We have the hope of heaven and the love of a good and gracious Father. I pray that the conversation shared today reminds your heart of the good purpose that God has for your suffering, and that there is much hope and beauty to be found even in the midst of pain. Today's conversation is a really special one that I'm very eager to share with you. However, before we dive in, I just want to cover a few housekeeping items. We're currently in a series centered around beauty that accompanies our spring issue of the Keeping the Citadel magazine, The Battle for Beauty. Through this series, we are going to explore what it means to cultivate beauty in a world that is often broken by sin, suffering, and decay. We're going to look at beauty in our homes, hospitality, ordinary rhythms of homemaking. But today we're turning to one of the hardest places to find beauty, and that is the beauty of God's redeeming work in the midst of miscarriage, infertility, and deep loss. If you'd like to follow along with this series, the print edition of The Battle for Beauty has sold out. This is our spring issue from this year, but the full digital edition is still available. So you can go to keepingthecitadels.com and get that there and join along with these conversations and use that as kind of a supplement to what you're listening here on the podcast. We also have our summer issue on sale right now. So if you've been thinking about picking up a print copy, we have lots of these available right now. And it is a wonderful time to do that. You can use the code SUMERSAILE at checkout to get $10 off that print issue. And we are also opening up subscriptions right now for our fall issue. And we have a brand new year planned of content for the magazine. Really excited about what we have planned for that. The theme for year two is called The Architecture of the Citadel. So if you would like to make sure that you get that fall issue and you don't want to miss out, which you should not, make sure that you go to keepingthecitadel.com and sign up now. Subscription orders for the fall magazine close August 15th. So make sure you get your order in now. Finally, if this podcast has encouraged you, would you please take a moment just to subscribe and leave a review and of course share with your friends? It truly helps women discover what we're doing here and the mission of what we're trying to share of biblical womanhood and this rich vision of all the good things that we have to do in our homes and in our families and in our lives. So yeah, just get the message of keeping the Citadel out. You can also send me a message right through your podcast player. If you have a question or a topic that you'd like to see covered in a future episode or something that you want to ask me about an episode that I've already covered, I can't respond to those messages on the send me a text feature on your podcast player. But I always love to hear from you and am happy to address those. And if you're watching on YouTube, you obviously can leave a comment and I can reply to you there. All right, with that out of the way, let's step into today's conversation. Today I have the honor and privilege of introducing you all to Katie Bailey. Katie Bailey is one of my subscribers, actually, to the magazine, and we connected that way. She reached out to me, and it was just such a gift getting to know her and hear her story. And as soon as I heard the story that she's about to share with you today, I knew that this was something that I really wanted you listeners to hear. And that was just a really important topic for us to cover. So, Katie, would you go ahead and introduce yourself? Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_01Um, like she said, I'm Katie Bailey, um located in South Carolina. Um a wife, a mom, a homemaker, um, and most importantly, a Christian. So um so that's a little bit about me. I um also have a lot of fun little side hobbies. I like to bake and um I'm a doula and I get to help moms um give birth. And um on top of that, I like to read as well. So yeah, just nice little side hobbies and take care of my my two littles.
SPEAKER_00So awesome.
SPEAKER_01How old are your kids? Uh two and four.
SPEAKER_00That's I love those ages. Those are the best. So many people when they're in the thick of those years, they they're like, Really? These are the best. And I I just I loved that time. It was so fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a lot of snuggles and you know, I feel like they're old enough to talk and play and as well. So that's been really sweet and fun.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, it's such a special time. How long have you been at Doula? Um, about two years.
SPEAKER_01Okay, awesome. That's great. So kind of on and off just with having my own child and um been able to help some moms that I know. So not anything huge, but it's a fun little passion project, I think.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Oh, that's great. I we we need more of those in this day and age. So especially from a Christian perspective.
SPEAKER_01So Yeah. Yeah, I've noticed that's a big portion of it too. Just um I've even had um some clients that had previously had doulas that were not Christians, and they spoke to how they just felt like something was missing there. You know, because it's a vulnerable time and um also um a lot of need a lot of wisdom, a lot of discernment sometimes when it comes to um babies and and childbirth. So um a lot of praying together with clients too. It's really it's it's an honor, honestly. It really is an honor to walk with women through pregnancy and uh the newborn state.
SPEAKER_00That's wonderful. That's I I think that um that is definitely an area that we as women need to be reclaiming from uh just a Christian worldview and to be focusing on in terms of ministry. So I think that is just such a wonderful thing that that you offer to women. Thank you. Yeah. It's yeah, it's really sweet and fun for me too. Awesome. Well, um, you reached out to me during a time when you were going through a a very hard uh period of suffering and you uh were interested in sharing your story and what the Lord has done in your life through that. Would you um begin by sharing a bit of that story with our listeners?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um I I I think it's best to start maybe um way first to communicate, Heather, about kind of my first um acquaintance with suffering. Um and it wasn't recently either. So um I'm actually coming up on on 10 years since this event, which is um pretty heavy for our family. Um in that uh when I was a the summer after my sophomore year of high school, I unexpectedly lost my father. Um he passed away, like I said, unexpectedly. It was in the middle of the night, and it just rocked our world. Um thankfully my my parents um rose like raised me in a Christian household. Um, and we went to church and I um had a faith background, but I felt like it was the first time that my faith had been questioned, like, okay, wow, this big event and what does this mean um for me? Who is God in this? Uh and I was 16 at the time, so just a lot of wrestling with, you know, why why would this happen? Or how is God gonna be kind to me? You know, like how is he gonna walk with me in this? Um I I praise God that in that situation, I never I always knew that God loved me and had a plan for me, even if it didn't make sense to me at that time. And so I'm very thankful for that grace. Um, I know I could have gone so many different ways at 16 to handle such a hard loss.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, but um in that that first suffering, um, my mom and I pretty quickly on decided that we were gonna choose joy as our our mantra. Like we're just gonna keep asking God for more joy. Um, because when you're in that season, nothing feels happy, like nothing feels easy, everything. Um kind of came. I I'd say it's like you're walking through syrup, like it's just everything feels so heavy. Um, and so yeah, we just kept saying we're gonna keep asking God for joy. Uh and my dad was so joyful. So it was like he wouldn't want us to to be like this. Like he wouldn't want us to stay so sad and and and not look for the positives and and the goods and the things that God is doing in this season. Um and so yeah, that was kind of my first acquaintance with suffering. Um, and then the second time that I would say that I really and and I I preface this to say I think suffering doesn't have to be these, you know, big events in your life. I think they can be long, long seasons of of difficulty. Um, I think there's lots of little little hardships that we face. Um, but these these big ones kind of knock us back and make us reevaluate a lot of things um and make us repent a lot.
SPEAKER_00You said that this experience with losing your dad, that that was really your first experience with suffering, right? Like in a in a big way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in a big, you know, kind of um, for lack of better terms, like kind of the slap in the face of whoa, like life is really hard and there are gonna be some tough things that I walk through and I'm not immune to them. Like that it's not suffering happens to other people out there. Like it's it's gonna happen to me too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that was Was it just you and your mom, or do you have siblings?
SPEAKER_01I have um an older brother, but he was in college at the time. He was actually home for the summer, which was sweet, but he um went back to school in the fall. And so yeah, it still was just my like my mom and I at home following that.
SPEAKER_00Ugh, I can't even imagine what that must have been like. And just especially with your brother being gone, you and your mom having to navigate all this together. Did you find that this experience strengthened your mom's faith as well?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Um, like I said, we grew up in a in a Christian, like I grew up in a church. My parents were teaching me about God and about Christ. Um, but my mom said that she really felt like she didn't start digging into God's word. And she actually started um with some other friends of hers a Bible study every Friday night. And a big part of that was just looking for community, you know, like your her best friend for, you know, 20 plus years had had passed, and she was looking for deeper relationships. And so she started a Bible study at her house um and she really began to dig into God's word. Um, and you know, we would we would both say that that time was really challenging, but that it pushed us to greater faith. We had it's almost like you're going, like, I can't do this, like I I need help. You're like grasp, grasping something. Yeah, like I need something, I need greater faith, I need joy, I need like you're just asking for the fruits of the spirit over and over again. Like, I need peace, I need gentleness, like I I need all of these things, kind of desperately. Um, in a way that you previous to maybe a a bigger suffering, or just in the midst of the season, you hadn't, you hadn't needed that before. So yes, she grew um a ton and even now would speak to, you know, she wouldn't probably recognize her faith. She sees that as a clear distinction and her faith before my dad passed away and and after.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah. Those those kind of times in life are definitely before and after moments. And it's like there was life before, and now this life after is completely different, and it's a new version of myself, and everything will be marked by by these times.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I remember calling it, um, and this was kind of even before I feel like COVID kind of took this term, but I kept saying, like, I just what do you mean normal? There's no normal now. Like there's a new normal, right? Like 'cause I went back to school um because he passed away in July, and I went back to school and I looked around and I'll why is everyone normal? I'm not normal anymore. I didn't feel the same. Um and it was still only a month or so after my dad had passed. So um there definitely is a distinction, I think, in certain times of suffering. And what's I I obviously didn't did not see it at the time at 16, but looking back now, I see how that sanctification was so good for me. Like not being normal anymore was good for me.
SPEAKER_00What would you say were some of the biggest spiritual truths that you learned as a result of that loss?
SPEAKER_01Um I felt like uh the resurrection took on a really new meaning for me. I remember the first Easter after my dad passed and thinking, oh, like that was he's living in that now. Like I think that was the first time that I really understood, like, you know, we we die and without Christ's resurrection, like that's it for us. Um because of the resurrection, we get to live in eternity with him to receive his inheritance. And um, yeah, that was a big one for me, just realizing wow, like the resurrection feels way more personal now because yes, I understood salvation, but it was someone I love dearly getting to play a part, like getting to experience um a portion of that you know, resurrection and eternal life that felt uh much more personal than it had before. Um, so that's one of them that comes to mind. Um the other one was I actually had um someone I I dearly trust and I think very highly of um tell me, you know, like this is not God's plan for you, like God is crying with you and this is not like God doesn't this is not God's plan and it's just Satan, you know's and and that even at 16, um understanding my own theology, yeah. I remember being like that can't be true, because then if it's not God's plan for me, then where was he? Yeah, like why was he not here? And so um I really questioned that and talked to some other believers that I know, and they thankfully they were able to kind of keep me along the right path and be like, no, like God, this is God's providence in your life. There isn't some alternate reality, right? Where this didn't happen. There's no multiverse.
SPEAKER_00Over every circumstance.
SPEAKER_01Right. Um and that was really helpful because it was okay, it's not like there's some other path that I was supposed to be on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01God has on me on this particular path. Um, and yes, it included hardship and suffering. Um, but um, even now I'm I'm really reflecting on um surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all of my life. And so that has that has to be true then to like God's goodness and mercy were following me um even in a a really, really hard time. Um and even now, like I I still miss my dad. There's been a lot of moments that he's that he hasn't been here for. I mean, all of my major life events have happened in the past ten years. Um graduating high school, going to college, getting married, having my children, like all of these really big life events that he was not here to be a part of. And it's you know, I still have these moments of grief, and it feels different now than it did in the thick of it. Um, but I am able to look back a bit more and see God's goodness and his mercy. Um and and still also be sad about it. Like I wish that he was here, I wish that he was able to be a grandfather to my children, things like that.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah. I think the verse that says, All the days that you have um ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be is such a comfort in times like that of knowing that this always was his plan. Like you were saying, there was never um this wasn't a surprise to God. There wasn't a a what if this could have happened instead, because this always was the plan. And even though these providences of the Lord from his hand are very hard sometimes for us to receive, um, that we can know that he doesn't make mistakes and that the his plans for us are good. Right. Yeah. So you said you wanted to share this as the precursor kind of for the story that you'll be sharing and the topic of our conversation today. So how did this experience of losing your father, how did it impact what you have gone through recently?
SPEAKER_01Um, so I'll kind of give the listeners a nice little uh recap of what's been going on. So yeah. Um I I mentioned that I have two children, um, two little girls last so aug August 2025, um, we found out that we were expecting our third baby number three, and we were so excited. Um kind of now you look back and you're like, there's a lot of um just very naive, like things had gone really easy and really well uh with my first two, and so we're just We're just pumped. We're just ready for baby number three. And about everything went well on my first appointment. At my second appointment, I was 12 weeks and I felt weird. Something fell off. So I talked to my provider and I said, you know, I just, I don't know, something feels wrong. I don't really feel symptoms anymore. And I feel too good. Like I don't really know. And I'm not used to this. Maybe I'm healthier this time or something. I'm not really sure. Um and so um my provider was like, well, let's kind of skip all the paperwork. Let's just go ahead and do uh like check on baby with the Doppler and we'll get back to the paperwork.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so she checked on baby, and I had like every every time I did with my girls, I had the my phone ready to record the heartbeat and was like ready to had it sitting there listening. Um, and then we just sat there and we just sat there and she kept looking and kept looking and kept looking. Um, and you know, she kind of mentioned, oh well, 12 weeks, it it's rare, but sometimes you can't find the heartbeat. And I'm like, that didn't really happen before with my girls. I got, you know, and I'm already feeling anxious. I already felt like something wasn't okay. Um and so um I went and I had an ultrasound to confirm that baby had passed two weeks prior. So at around 10 weeks. Um and very sweetly, my mom was actually with me. And one of the first things she said was, like, we your father knows that baby. Like, your your dad knows that child. He didn't really get to know your girls, but he knows this one. He knows if it's a boy or a girl, um, and he's with them in heaven, and like I don't know how heaven works, but I pray that we get to hold babies in heaven. And so um just thinking about him like holding my baby was really sweet to me um to think about right when we found out. Um, and I'm gonna share baby's name just because I it's a huge part of our story, really. Um, is because I my husband was not with me, sadly. And so I called him and I, you know, we're on our way home and I texted him and I said, I would like to name this baby Pilgrim, because we had spent, um, I don't know if you're familiar with um Lethos Kids has a Pilgrim's Progress for Children. For children. Yeah. We my daughter wanted to read it on repeat. It was like we're reading all the books all the time last fall. And so it just all the time we were talking about Christian on his journey and about pilgrims. And so it it was like this baby is only heard about pilgrim's journey for the past three months. And so it just feels really natural to name this child pilgrim. Um and the process of, you know, you hear this news. Whoa, like very um, and I at the moment you're like, okay, well, something, nothing has happened. Like I'm just walking around. I still am carrying my baby, but they're here and with the Lord and some weird, you know, in between. Um, like I'm carrying their body, but they're they're with the Lord. And um I ended up experiencing like every miscarriage complication in the book. Um I ended up delivering at home. Um, I needed to go to the ER because of blood loss. Um, I then proceeded to do a couple rounds of medication to help my body like clear the rest of any sort of retained placenta. Um, that didn't work. And so at eight weeks after baby had officially passed, officially miscarried, um, I needed a DNC. So that's just a surgical way to go in and remove that uh retained uh placenta, basically. Um, and then after that, I received an infection from the surgery. So I had to be hospitalized a couple days after the surgery. Um, and so kind of the whole it was weird because I I carried the baby for roughly 13, 14 weeks. Um, and then it wasn't really until 13, you know, 12 weeks later that it was all over. Like I was out of the hospital, went to my my follow-up, and I was like, that was the whole baby's life was the whole miscarriage. Like it was a really long um time. So, um, and we were kind of that's when that's when we connected. I was like, um, you know, kind of told you what was going on, but then I was like, pause, things are not like things are still not going well.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I was just thinking about that. Is how you reached out to me with a desire to share what the Lord was doing in your heart in this time, and it was before it was even over. You were still very much in the thick of it all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Um and so, but but what's so I I think this is um the first time in any sort of suffering that I really felt God was near to me. Like there was no way I could have said, like, he's gone, he's missing. And there were times I felt like his, you know, you hear scripture kind of talk about his hand is heavy. And I I felt that like it felt like a very heavy time. And I was wondering why things were going the way that they were going and kind of how come it isn't easier, like it it was already gonna be hard losing a baby kind of emotionally, but now physically suffering this long um and the challenges that came with that. Um, yeah, it it was sweet to see God so many times be like just giving me so much peace. Um and I went through kind of like the holiday Christmas season. I ended up having surgery at the beginning of the year. Um, and there were, you know, I there were times where I was going, okay, God, like why can't I enjoy Christmas with my family? Why am why am I at the ER on Christmas? You know? Um, but but then he always answered every prayer. Like there was never a moment where there wasn't care provided to me, um family members filling in the caps, taking care of things. Um and it was sad too, just with my girls, I felt like I couldn't do a lot. And so just felt like mommy's in and out, and I'm not here, and what's going on? Um, and my oldest kind of understood a little bit more about okay, there was a baby and the baby has died, um, which brought up great correct questions, you know, as a toddler kind of asking, well, why she she why did the baby have to die? And as everybody like there were times where we'd have another friend say that they were pregnant, is that baby gonna die too? Like, how do we work through that? Um, and so it, you know, it was hard, but it brought up really great questions and conversations that, you know, and we she's kind of asked some of that already with and we talked about her grandfather, my father. Why, why is he not here? And just kind of answering some of those questions on a toddler level.
SPEAKER_00Um What providence though that you were going through the pilgrim's progress before all this? Because I I mean I can't think of a more perfect way to talk to your child about the the process of of death and resurrection and the celestial city that we are.
SPEAKER_01It was just wild because it felt like she had the the words. Like just like Pilgrim, just like Faithful dies before he gets to go to the end, he dies, you know, he dies early due to persecution. I feel like God carries him home. God carries him home. Like he crosses the river of death and he goes to the celestial city where there are saints waiting for him. And it was like she was like, Yeah, like, and we're gonna see our pilgrim in the celestial city. And I'm like, Yes, we are. Um in in ways that I think before it was kind of like, and uh yeah, there were times reading the book before it even happened that even kind of brings you to tears thinking about that.
SPEAKER_00I can't I can't read it anytime without crying, so I can't even imagine going through what you were going through. And I'm over here crying right now.
SPEAKER_01So Yes, it is so so sweet. Um, and I think there is a tendency to want to shield our children from death, but we talk about it all the time in the Christian faith. We're talking about death constantly. And so, in a way, instead of saying, you know, we're not we're not gonna tell them what happened or we're not gonna talk about it. Um, or even if, you know, she asked, Well, is that baby gonna die too? We weren't gonna be like, no, not at all. Like things are gonna be perfectly fine. It was no, like we don't know what God's plan is, but we are trusting him and we can ask. We can ask in prayer that you know, that the Lord would keep us safe, that uh that that child would be healthy, things like that. Um, but we can trust. And I think it was also really helpful for her to think, okay, well, um when my husband was kind of explaining to her why these things happen and things, um there would be times where I'd be with my girls and I would just cry. Like I would just it would just kind of come over me and I would just cry. Um very mostly in the early stages, because I feel like in the early stages it was more emotionally heavy. And then later on with the physical suffering, it felt more just oh yeah, very weighty. Um I feel like I'd run out of tears and I was just asking God to deliver, deliver me. Um But my daughter, just so amazing to see what children grasp onto was I my husband said this to her one time, and that was all she said from for the next three months. Um, was like, Are you sad about baby? Is that why you're crying? She would ask me, like, are you sad about Pilgrim? And I would say, Yes, baby girl, I I am sad. I am sad about Pilgrim and I am just sad about what happened. And she would say, But you have you have joy because we're gonna see Pilgrim in heaven one day. Yes, you're yes, like I I I needed that like she was just ministering to me. She didn't even know, like, yes, I I I do have joy, and I can have joy because I have hope and I don't have to grieve without hope.
SPEAKER_00So many thoughts though are are coming up as just hearing your story. And I mean, one, what an opportunity to show your children that um we do not grieve is the way that the world grieves. And and I love that you talked about the importance of of how it is good to talk to our children about death. Because from even from you said your your children are two and four, even from that age, we can teach them the hope of the resurrection. And now that they have this really tangible way of of understanding that, um that I just think is is such a a gift that the Lord did give you in this in this whole process. And then uh one of the other things that that was coming to mind as you were talking is just how in terms of miscarriage, it's it's such a common thing for women to experience. But I do think that because it isn't talked about enough, um, and it because it is so common that it kind of gets taken for granted what a long process it often can be. That I I I mean, I know I know for some maybe um they are blessed to for it to be somewhat of a quick experience and they're able to heal and and recover and move on. Um but for many like you, it's it's not, you know, and I think that just understanding that this is going to be a process of grief and and healing, and it is going to take time and that that is okay is something really important for women to recognize because uh I think when we go through these seasons of grief and hardship and suffering, that the Lord uses these things as a way for us to to know him in such a more intimate way than than we would have, you know, if it was something quick and done and over with. Like that's what we want when we're going through suffering. We want it to just be over. And um we want the pain to be over, we want to be able to move on. And uh if if if that is you, if that is a woman who who is able to have that experience, that is a blessing. But I'm speaking directly to the woman who, like you, her suffering was lingering and she had to sit in it for a long time. That this is something um where we get to experience and know God in a way that we wouldn't have known him if we hadn't had that time to linger in pain. And just hearing you talk about your story of the way that you got to know the Lord in in such a um different way and and experience his nearness to you, experience his faithfulness, the the ways that that even now I can see um in the way that you talk about the story, you were you speak about it um with gratitude and and this is called. I'm sad and I'm grateful. I'm sad and I'm grateful. I I've heard I've heard people say that before. And um and it's true. That's I think that so much of the Christian life is this mingling of grief and joy that people do not understand, and um, they think it needs to be one or the other. But it's this paradox that we get in the Christian life of where it is the path of suffering is really sometimes where we experience the most joy and the most nearness to God. And I I just love that. I love getting to see the hope that you have, the way that you were able to take this loss that you experienced and and to be able to see gifts that God provided for you in this time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um I have two two thoughts. One is that the um I I had a another suffering kind of in between that with our daughter when she was a newborn. And I was so angry. I I eventually, um probably about six months after it happened, um, because my my daughter needed emergency surgery and a lot of expectations went out the door. I felt like that was a big part of it, was just expectations about being a mother, and I wasn't able to breastfeed because of it. And um, I just felt very I don't know if I felt angry at God, but I just felt really bitter that it happened. Yeah, gratitude was not was not there. Um, and then about six months in, um I was reading through, and then one of the books I'd recommend um is John Flavil's Facing Grief.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And he he doesn't hold back. He is not the book to read right after it happens. He's the book to read when you're angry later on that it that it happened, um, and you feel like you're still guarding from God. Um because he he talks about when sorrow is sinful. Um and uh I think the Lord, I I would be a different person if I hadn't gone through that experience as well. And so about about six months after it happened, I kinda had this this homecoming with God where I said, I can't like this is I need to repent and confess that I have felt angry towards you, that this was your providence. I would have picked something entirely different for my, you know, for my story. Um, but that's really, you know, that's elevating myself to God and and I'm not Him and that I do not get to decide um exactly the the path that my life takes. And so um he he talks about when when sorrow becomes sinful, and because of that experience, because of repenting, I felt like this next suffering I I recognized that when you are angry about your suffering, when you're um seeing it not as a means for sanctification, as a means for good, you're only holding bitterness for yourself. Like God wants to comfort you, God wants to be your comforter. Um, but whenever we push ourselves away from him, we have to draw near to him and he draws nearer to us. But when we push ourselves away from him, we're the ones who suffer. Because in this miscarriage, in this time of suffering, I've I felt like he was with me. Um and I felt his nearness and I kept crying out to him. Um and I was asking for for mercies and also asking for understanding of trying to make sense of the whole situation. Um But um one of the first things that John Flaybell says is that sorrow becomes sinful when it causes us to slight and despise all our other mercies and enjoyments. So my husband would bring up, you know, like look at our child now, like she's so healthy and so happy after everything that she went through. And I just felt like, so what? Like I didn't get what I wanted, and she had to, you know, I just felt like it was so and I say that to say that it was God's work in my heart why I felt like this time it was different. It was different because I had already been humbled. I'd already been humbled through suffering, um, through things not going the way that I hoped and expected and wanted. Um, and I knew that I just had to open my hands, okay, Lord, then what do you have for us in this season? And other things that I um wanted to say as a comment to you were talking about when when when suffering is long, when it, you know, when it's not kind of a over and done easy. Um and this is that the other book that I was gonna recommend. Is it's called A Book of Comfort for Those in Sickness Um by PB Power. Both of them are kind of like Puritan reads. Um but I recommend this book to anybody for anything. Like just read it, it's really good, even if you're not suffering.
SPEAKER_00Can you hold it up? I can see you've got it.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Um I haven't heard of that one. That let's Yeah, so this is uh John Flavil. Okay. Um, but this this book, I remember feeling that exact thing, like, why is this so long? Why is this not ending? Um he writes Um, your trial cannot be longer than the lasting power of God's faithfulness, mercy, patience, and power. He will be true to you all through it. His patience will not be exalted, his power will not come short. You will never be left without God. He will be in all your tomorrows, even as he is in your today and has been in all your yesterdays. And I read that. That is so good. Yeah. Oh, I someone actually gifted, I was in the hospital, and a sweet friend, she said, Do you have do you have a Kindle? And I said, Yeah, I brought it just as something to do. And she said, I'm sending you an ebook right now in the hospital. And it was this book. And so I later bought the physical copy because I loved it so much. But I was in the hospital reading just about God's comfort to me and how he hasn't left me, and how um there's a purpose. There's a purpose for this suffering, and God means um to sanctify me through the exact things that are happening, no matter if it was short or long, God knows what you need to bring you greater sanctification. And he knew that I I think if it would have been a short, easy process, I I felt a lot of comfort about my child being in heaven. And I I think if it would have been short and easy, I would have kind of been, okay, like, you know, this happened and we're moving on. But because of how long lasting it was, it really brought me to my knees about about the physical suffering of it. So, um, and tested, tested that those muscles in me as well, that perseverance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I love that recommendation because um I'm always trying to think of good books to give to people who are in the middle of suffering. I think that's such a great way to bless people when they're going through hard times. So thank you for sharing those.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I said, the the facing grief one is um it's a hard pill to swallow in a good way.
SPEAKER_00What that made me think of though is the need for us as Christians to learn how to grieve well and to grieve as Christians, because um it's not the grieving and the sorrow that by itself is is sinful, but it is when we let it um is what we do with it. And are we taking our sorrow? Are we taking our grief and are we surrendering it to the Lord and saying, Your will be done and submitting to him and and letting him use that sorrow to transform our hearts and do with it the purpose that that he has for that suffering? Or are we allowing our grief? To lead us, like you were talking about, to bitterness and to anger and um resisting his will. Um, this is something that I've had to battle so much in my life, just being honest and confessional, because um, while to my knowledge, I haven't experienced miscarriage, um, I have dealt with the pain and and grief of not being able to have any more children. And um, which is something I also wanted to talk about today in this, in this episode as well. It's just the pain of infertility, whether it's primary infertility or secondary infertility, um, whatever the circumstances are surrounding just your plan for your family not going the way you wanted it to. And um, and it this is definitely something to grieve, you know, whether it's um a miscarriage or or just the not being able to have more children, period, that this is something that um when our plan for our family and our vision of what we had in mind doesn't go the way that we wanted to, um, we're not just grieving the the loss of the child, we're also grieving the loss of of what we imagine our family would look like. And the experience of suffering of waiting and um praying and the Lord saying no to those prayers, that is that is a very hard thing to surrender. And and I will I will say from first experience that um I have done that well and I have done that not so well. You know, I I know what it is to trust the Lord and to surrender those desires to him and to wait on him and his timing and um to rejoice over the family he's given me, but I also know what it is to struggle with that um that anger, like you were talking about. And and that's been something that um the Lord has really had to prune in me. And um so I I kind of want to talk about that. How has the Lord challenged or reshaped your expectations about your family? And what what would you say to women who are maybe struggling with just that tension of this isn't going according to my plan? And God's word says that his plans for me are good, but this does not feel good. And and what I'm asking for, uh especially when we're talking about children, children are a blessing from the Lord, they are a heritage from the Lord. And so when um the Lord is not giving us these children that we so desperately long for, that does not feel like a good gift from God. So, what would you say to to women who are struggling in in that similar type of circumstance? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I can have two um lingering lingering thoughts about it. And one is um kind of to the to the woman who maybe just the the timing of things are is not going the way that they planned. Um and I have also been that person where it's like, and we're gonna try to have a baby this month, so that nine months later we can have this, you know. And it felt like, you know, we're trying to do all the exact things. Um and sometimes that happens and it works out, and that was God's providence. And sometimes, surprise, it took six months to get pregnant, or surprise you had a baby that you lost, and you know, now you're not expecting a baby this spring. Um and you won't be expecting a baby this year, you know, like that that kind of thing. But um to to that to that person, um, I want to remind them that it is not bad to make plans. But when we think that it's all about our plan, right? Um, then that's when we're not we're not even asking for children for the right reasons almost. It's like we only want them on our time. Um you kind of see that sometimes more with the larger families that I feel like they end up saying, you know, God just gives the children when He when you are ready for them, right? Like when when God intends for you to have them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and in that it might be the middle of the trip that you had planned for two years and now you're gonna have a baby, you know? Like the Lord is is intentional about giving you the child that you need when when he deems fit. Um and and with that comes you kind of have to throw any sort of selfishness out the door. Well, I wanted to do that, or this is it would have been perfect if we had a baby at the start of spring, and I don't want to have a baby in December. Like, you know, there's all these just surface level, it it it's not meaningless, right? But yeah, now I'm experiencing loss, and I'm sure women who experience infertility, they're like, I would take a baby any day, any day of the year. Pick any birthday sounds great to me. Um because I was that I was that person like I don't want to really have a baby in December because holidays, and now I'm like, I Lord, when I anytime, I'm ready, anytime my hands are open, you know. I I I think that that really humbled me. Um and then to to the person who um again uh God's God's providence, he's been teaching me a lot, just about his providence. Um, but but to by his his providence, he hasn't given you children yet, or you're waiting on a child. Um and I I think we sometimes don't realize how big of a deal it is that God is creating a soul, um, a person who has eternity set in their heart. Um and that person, um for those who who go on later to have children on a different timeline, um, that that person is so unique and who God has been preparing and and been predestined this child to be there on that exact time in their life. Um I like to tell my friends when they're we're kind of talking about this that there's a certain egg and a certain sperm that need to meet and God's in charge of that, right? Like there's there's a there's a certain combination of genetics that need to happen to create that exact child. And if you were any other combination, you wouldn't be you and that child wouldn't be them. Yeah. Um and then I know that there are there are many who those those prayers are answered no. Um and that is I think probably the hardest the the the weightiest, maybe is the right word of the curse from the fall that there will be pain and childbearing. I think that's probably the most painful is that the the answer was no. Um and um in that I think sometimes women might feel empty-handed, like, God, I don't, I don't have anything. Yeah, but they so, so, so do because every woman can mother, every woman can mother. And so I have seen so many women um personally give so much to their church, to their local community community, to their extended family because they have mothered other people's children in a way that they wouldn't have been able to if they had their own children, and that doesn't, you know, n negate the pain and and the hardship. Um but it it doesn't mean that God doesn't have work for you to do or or gifts for you to give. Um and He is using probably that no to say, okay, then Lord, where I would say, Lord, where am where am I to work? What what do you have for me to do?
SPEAKER_00Because how work do you have?
SPEAKER_01Yep. Well how can I be faithful to what you're calling me to do, even if it's not what I asked to be called to do. Um and I think a lot of women find themselves in that situation um even even if they have children, right? Like if they have a child with special needs, like, okay, this is a different calling I didn't expect. Um just just things like that. So um I think we feel that that emptiness. I mean, I remember feeling that even after my baby passed away. Like, Lord, I I feel empty. My womb is empty, like it it it just hurts. It just feels so vulnerable. And um but with that, I feel like my husband reminded me frequently like you you have work, you have work to do, you have you're you're not empty. And and God is using this to teach you how to ask him for for greater clarity, for for purpose, for for other things. Um, and there have been so many things that have come up that I have thought, I wouldn't have been able to do this if I had a baby this spring. And then it's it's really good things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then that's how God works. I I've gone through the same thing and I I've learned over the years that um just in the years of my waiting and grief and praying for for more children, um that that a lot of that that tension of where I have struggled to to trust the Lord is um the fear of not having the work to do because I love being a mother so much. I it's it's uh I don't I don't want more children for lack of love for the children that I have. It's because I love them so much that I just want that work to continue, you know? And I want to continue being fruitful in this way. And so um there's this this lie that I will struggle with that that when they're gone, I won't have work to do and and I'll be empty-handed. And it's been wonderful to see, and this is something that the Lord has taught me over the years, that that he has created us for good works. He has created us um to be fruitful and productive. And like you were saying, as women, he's created us to be mothers and life givers. And uh, whether it's with children or it's after they're grown or um in, you know, these different capacities that he is not going to leave us empty-handed, that he is still going to fill us and provide for us, and he has a plan for us. Um, I know that something else I was thinking about as you were talking that I just wanted to share from my story is so my first baby, he almost um died. He was born in an extremely traumatic way. I had um, we both had some very severe health complications at his birth that were really unexpected. And I uh say that because from all throughout the pregnancy, it was my first pregnancy. I was so excited to have a baby, to be a mother, and I just felt this weight of responsibility that it was my job to do everything to keep my baby safe. And I was going to follow all the rules. I was going to do everything that the book said because I wanted to do everything within my power to make sure that the pregnancy turned out the way it, you know, quote unquote should. Um and yeah, I removed should from the vocabulary. Oh yeah. And so yeah. I uh when when everything went wrong, and I mean to the point where I and I did not plan for a C-section, and um, like I didn't even do research on on C-sections because I was like, no, I'm I'm gonna have the birth this way. And um, but in that moment where it's like, are you going to save your baby's life? You just all those plans get thrown out the window and you do what you have to do to save the baby's life. Um that whole experience, what it taught me is just how much I had clung to my own plan, and that if I did everything right, that that my plan was going to go the way it would go, my pregnancy was going to go the way it was gonna go, the delivery was gonna go the way it was gonna go. And it was so humbling when everything did not. And I realized just how nothing is in my control, and that this entire thing, my baby, me, the entire experience of pregnancy and delivery and having children, it was all in in um God's hands and part of his plan. And there was nothing that I could have done to cause or prevent what had happened. Um and I wanted to actually take that guilt on. I remember racking my brain after doing all kinds of research, trying to figure out what I did wrong. What did I do wrong that could have caused this? And and what what is wrong with me or my body that I can fix? And and what I had to come to grips with was that it was completely out of my control. And that um there was nothing that I that I did to cause this. And and most of the time I think that that's the way it is with miscarriage or having a child with special needs or not being able to have any more children at all. Um, you know, I know there are some cases where where we can do things to improve our health, but ultimately it is in the Lord's hands. And he is the one who is sovereign over all of it. And we have to trust him. And when I did, when I trusted him, I remember going into my second pregnancy, I did have so much more of a peace of knowing that I didn't have to stress about if I happened to eat lunch meat or whatever it was. And not that I shouldn't do things with wisdom, but just that at the end of the day, if I accidentally did something wrong, that it was still gonna be in God's hands. And whatever happened to me and my baby, it was gonna be up to him. Um but I think with that trust in God's sovereignty, we also have to have a firm grasp on his goodness and knowing that whatever happens, even if the Lord takes my baby away, um, my my second child, well, actually both of my babies, there was we um we didn't know if they were gonna live or die for for a while after they were born. Um but with my second, I remember um just going through the process of of what if he does die? What if I don't get to take him home from this hospital and and this is all the life that he he has? What is um the purpose of that? And I I was so comforted in knowing that that the purpose was so that his life would be bring God glory in and of itself, that God has created all of us, our chief end is to glorify him and enjoy him for all our days. And he could still do that, even if his days are are limited. But that for me, that my my job was to love him, and that served a great purpose in and of itself, that he got to be known by me and I got to know him. And even if the world didn't get to, that that served a purpose that that was good and beautiful to the Lord. And so um, yeah, I just all this to say that we as women, we like to have all these things planned out and we want to have the entire path of when we're gonna have these babies, how it's all gonna go, how many we're gonna have. And it's okay to make plans, like you were saying, and and to do our best to plan with wisdom, yeah, with wisdom. Um, but to hold it with open hands, knowing that God is sovereign and that whatever He ordains for our families, for our children, is still good, even if it's not the way that we imagine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01John uh Flavil says uh I can no more alter the purpose and work of God than I can change the seasons of the year, or alter the course of the sun, the moon, and the stars, or disturb the order of the day and the night, which are all unalterably established by a firm constitution and ordinance of heaven. There and I think as a creature, right? Okay. Like we're just at the will of God and and his work for us. Um and that is super, super humbling, especially in our day and age when you're told you're basically God and you can do whatever you want. Um but then your life doesn't show you that. God teaches you throughout your life that you don't have control, that you have to surrender to what his will is. And like Christ in the garden, not my will but yours be done. Um and even with that is this is I think the big thing I learned the most from from Pilgrim's Progress is that all of these sufferings, all of the the change in expectations, um, even like you were saying with your son, what is the the purpose of his life, no matter how long it may be. Um I learned that God means to sanctify us. That He will hold true to that promise, that He will sanctify us and that He will work out our salvation and so um bringing us to complete at the final day and that life of sanctification in Pilgrim's progress, every single time it's something hard. Yeah. Like like Pilgrim's whole journey, Christian's whole journey, all of it is hard. Like he keeps coming up to all of these different roadblocks, and some are harder than others, but each time he's learning how to trust the king, how to continue on the path that God has set for him, not looking to the right or to the left. Um, and and in that I see how we can either see suffering as a means for God to be mean to us and to just kind of punish us for our sins. But really, God for the Christian means to use it as sanctification. And even for the non-Christian, He means to show them their need, their need for a savior, their need for the gifts of the Spirit, all of those things. And so our I think we don't understand how deeply we need to be sanctified. Like we, and that you have a newborn and you're like, oh, I really need to be sanctified. I thought that I was patient and I'm not patient. Like I thought that I was sweet and I was kind and I thought that I was humble, and I thought all these things I trusted God, and you're handed this tiny little baby for the first time, and you're told to take care of it and and love it well. Um, and you realize really quickly that you're not as good at this as you said that you're gonna be like it's hard and you are not patient, and you are not um kind of like the you're not all that, you're not who you thought that you were. Um and so in that God means to humble us, to ask for grace, for mercy, for a whole plethora of things for help, because he means for us to call upon him. Um but yeah, suffering, yeah, suffering has taught me most about it it's the means to sanctify us. And if we didn't experience suffering, well then, like in Pilgrim's Progress, it talks about you can go up the hill of difficulty or you can slide down, you know, the through the comfort of ease to hell. Like those are your options. And so we can either climb the hill of difficulty, which means to sanctify us and change us along the way, and it is hard, or we can live the life of ease, um, which at the end turns out to be really rough too. Um but that the life of ease is is our our our way to hell. So um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I think what is such a comfort is that even though we have this road marked out for us and that is often paved with suffering and hardship, that even in the midst of that, and we see this in Pilgrim's Progress, that he provides these periods of respite and healing and blessing. Um, he brings faithful along, you know, as for friendship and just all these people to minister to us in in our time of need. And as the word says, that he is near to the brokenhearted. And so though this road that we have for us is often marked with so much heartache and loss that we can know that he is still safe to trust, that he loves us, and that it is for our good. And I think especially for the woman who. who has gone through maybe multiple losses or long periods of waiting, it can feel hard to trust the Lord and um to to surrender our hearts to to his providence, which is often very hard. And um it's it's so important to remember that it is through these hardships that he also gives us his sweetest gifts and that he doesn't just leave us barren and empty handed, that he does provide us with um the blessing of of his church and and his word ultimately to to be a bomb to our hearts. And I know that that for me in those times where where I've been wrestling with God and and and I just am feeling that sense of emptiness and and frustration with with why why doesn't he say yes? Why doesn't he um like that feeling that he's withholding something and and having to turn my eyes and and just see everything that he has blessed me with. And we have to rehearse that to ourselves we have to remind ourselves that it is um it is okay to grieve it is it is okay to to mourn these losses but we can't get to the point of of letting it blind us from all that is still good from all that we still have to hope for from from all that um there is still to do and and live for you know yeah I think that is countercultural I think our society wants to say you know however you want to feel you feel um I the algorithms really got me after the miscarriage.
SPEAKER_01I feel like I had to go in and be like anything to do with miscarriage or whatever like just take it off my feed um or just delete. I just delete Instagram like for a while on and off. But yeah I um felt like I saw a lot that was like don't say anything to diminish you know the the pain or the the loss don't say anything like at least this or and I think to some extent it's you know you want to be really graceful in your speech um but we are doing people a great disservice if at some point and it doesn't have to be day one right that they find out about their loss or whatever like it doesn't have to be the beginning but at some point you have to say how has God been kind to you let's think about that. Because I think if you let someone sit in all of the hard and sad and things that didn't go well um then you're missing out on what God has what what mercies he has had for you in that. Um even particularly about my dad I was as I prepared for this podcast I was reflecting on what are ways that God was merciful to me and kind to me with my dad and and the first one is I had a father that some girls never get like that's the first thing. Like I had him for 16 years and some women don't get to say very high you know don't get to speak highly of their fathers. Where I where I can, right? That that's that's a great mercy to me. Um and then other ones came to mind just even the way that it was unexpected. Well I've walked with friends who have had to walk with their parents in death through the hospital in and out of the hospital. Um they got to hold their hand and say goodbye and I didn't get that but I think it in in my situation it was a mercy to me that it happened quickly. Um and there's there's differences, right? Like I had a a friend who I honestly think part of our connection God mean to connect us because um after just a few years of being friends her her mom passed away. Um and we I was able to just walk with her in that one of my best friends um and we kind of talked about the differences and you know she she did get to hold her mom's hand and say goodbye. And that was really hard too you know um so just the differences in in people's stories but God uses um certain things to to be kindnesses uh and mercies and graces to you in those pains. Um even for me I had plenty of doctors that I went Lord thank you thank you for that doctor thank you for their care for me um thank you even when I was hospitalized I had one girl and I said I didn't bring a hairbrush and my hair is a just I just feel like a mess and she said oh I actually braid hair like professionally on the side that's my side job and I said well will you please braid my hair you know I asked her so kindly and she was so kind to just braid my hair for me in the hospital so that I didn't have a nest from the hospital then and so there are just ways that God means to put people in your path yeah in the suffering and and afterwards like this this friend of mine who's really close to me, we get to talk frequently as people who intimately know what it is to lose a parent at at a young age about things that we're we're thinking through and um just hey it's normal to feel that way. And you know just like God is really, really kind to and I you know I don't wish that upon people with miscarriage it's like I don't wish that upon anybody but I'm thankful for women who are willing to share with me their experiences and disciple me and and help me through and help me see God's God's goodness and kindness through it um about children that they wouldn't have had if they had had that that child that they lost and and just things things like that that that God uses. So um yeah he he means to gift us so much even in the suffering it it you know like it doesn't make sense exactly but when when we only focus on the hard stuff then it's almost like God's like hey like I'm doing these things for you. I'm walking with you I'm I'm guarding you um I never like was alone I always received provision and care. I'm I'm here today after I ended up you know in the ER from from the loss and so just there are just so many things that God has done in my life um and through the miscarriage.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and I I think that too it's such a hallmark of our of our culture to be uh to identify your entire self by your suffering. Yeah that was I was like I feel like on Instagram it's like sometimes it feels like that's the whole person that's their whole identity as wrapped up I'm I'm I'm the girl who has infertility or I'm the woman who has had this many miscarriages or has whatever your story is, whatever it is that you've gone through our culture wants you to use that as part of your identity. But Christ came to give us a new name and we are the redeemed and so yes we suffer and we have been broken but but what God does is he takes those spits of our story and he redeems them and he builds he makes something beautiful out of them. He creates beauty and so yeah I think um all the things that you were sharing were making me think so much of the way too that that God uses our story so that we can be a comfort to others so that we can be to to minister to others in their story and how that's never wasted. And I I think it's so important that that we learn to think of it in that way so that we don't become like Job's friends where um where we are telling people to either sit and just oh take this on as your whole identity it's okay like you went through this thing just sit there and feel sorry for yourself forever or or on the other hand to just you know buck up buttercups time like snap out of it and but to grieve with those who grieve and then to rejoice when it is time to rejoice and to point our friends and our sisters to the reason that we have to hope and the story that God is writing and how um the it all comes back to the hope that we have in heaven that that one day every tear will be wiped away and and there will be no more pain there will be no more brokenness and we will get to see these babies that we have lost we will um see all the ways that he used that brokenness to weave this incredible tapestry of of beauty for for his glory I I know that's something that I am just so excited for when I get to heaven is to see the entire story of my life and all those broken bits and periods of waiting and to see all the threads of what God was doing um through all of it. It's just gonna be incredible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I can't remember who it is it might have been in like a book of comfort for s for those in sickness but he talks about kind of that tapestry idea and talks about how what if you you know were creating this beautiful painting and you never used any dark colors like what if you never used any any black or or dark blue or these these kind of harsher tones and what a different picture it would it would be. And also that that's kind of the means that God God uses for good for crafting our our story. Yes one more thing that I wanted to to mention about um kind of for those who are having a hard time um because I have I have friends that I feel like they're having a really hard time getting out of that phase like they're feel like there's not really a new page to turn like we're just kind of stuck in this this um and with that um and I had some some sweet friends when I was um going through my loss. I had friends that were that were pregnant that were expecting one of my absolute best friends in the world had her first son two weeks before the baby that I lost was due. So um and at the beginning they kind of tiptoed like do you want to talk a bit about this? Like do you want to talk about pregnancy? Do you want to um and I remember saying I don't want to miss out on enjoying things with you. So yes like like invite me to the baby shower send me a registry like and maybe part of that is because I have experienced the joy of a child and so I I know that intimately um but to those who feel like they are are stuck look around for somebody else like it's almost like can I jump in on your joy I said that like I just want to be a part of your joy like can I just be excited for you and be happy for you and um throw the baby shower and do the things with you because right now I just I just almost want a baby to celebrate and like let's celebrate your baby right and so because of that it was actually really healing for me to feel like I wasn't you know distanced from friends that were experiencing joys. It was I actually read a quote and I have no idea who said this but I read a quote that was um shared joy is double joy shared sorrow is half sorrow. And those those friends in that time I that felt so true like they were so kind to me to be a comfort in my sorrow but then I also kind of got to be a part of their their joy with them and it and be excited for them and cheer them on and um I know that you know as their their babies come I get to to just be a part of that and that's really really sweet for for me. And so for those who feel like they're they're trapped in the castle of despair right like when they're they feel like there's no way out like there are people around them who God can either use you to comfort them in their sorrow or to be a part of their joy. And that's so that's like so beautiful part of the church. Like we just get to rejoice with those who joice and weep with those who weep and be a part of that um no matter maybe what our experience is at the time and people are kind to be a part of that for you to experience your joy to experience your sorrow with you.
SPEAKER_00Um we talked a lot about the castle of despair I I just I love that so much and who was in who was in the castle of despair with Christian? Um not fit hopeful. Hopefully hopefully have a being called promise and that's how we're gonna go to get it so he wasn't alone hopeful was there with him and he was part of the key to getting out of that castle of despair and um it it makes me think of something you said in the beginning that I just really can relate to is when we're in that period of grief, how going out into community it can feel I know when I've been in situations like this, I feel like I'm looking through a window out toward this world that is normal, like you were saying, you know um and and yet I've experienced this thing or I'm going through this pain and nobody understands what it's like, right? And so um when you're in that place of grief, there can feel this massive disconnect from other people which can lead toward isolation. And isolation is one of the worst things that we can do in these times of pain and grief. And it is so important that even if we feel that sense of of disconnect that we step out into serving that that when we get our hands busy and we get to work and we focus on how we can be a blessing and we can love and we can serve others and stepping into their joy and that that's when God fuels our heart with that hope again that gets us out of that castle of despair and the opposite I would say the opposite's true as well that the I I feel like I have learned how to be unashamed and ask for help.
SPEAKER_01Like I went to church members and I said I just need I just need help like I'd yeah and allowing them to serve you. Yes, can you pray for me? Can you even hospital I I texted a ladies kind of a group of ladies that I'm close to at church and I told them what was going on and multiple of them said what room are you in? I'm gonna stop by and I was there for two days and I had many visitors. So it just was really sweet to be like I I just need I just need community I just need you guys to to join with me and pray for me and people dropped off meals and cookies and all the things and I I just don't know if that I could have holed up and not told a soul and then just kind of living in that isolation, that darkness, that castle of despair but it it was like I knew I that wasn't okay. Like I needed to ask for people's help and every single person was so willing to jump at the chance to help um to take on some of that sorrow for me. And I I wouldn't have had that if I would have said oh no they don't want to help you know or this is embarrassing or you know it was like no I you can come see me in the hospital gown like I just need a friend.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and it's and it's good for others too because it gives them the opportunity to become acquainted with suffering as well. Even if they are not becoming acquainted in the intimate way that you are it is still um helping them to know the Lord in a deeper way and uh giving them the opportunity to minister in a way that they otherwise wouldn't have. So to the woman who is listening and going through something similar and you want to isolate, please don't do that. Please get yourself in community whether it's you serving or or allowing people to serve you that is just so important. Yeah. Absolutely yeah well I think that is a really good place to end this. This has been such a wonderful discussion. I'm so grateful Katie for your humility and your heart and just the joy that you have in the Lord. It's just been such a gift to talk with you today. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah thank you for having me on and letting me talk a lot about a lot about pilgrim's progress.
SPEAKER_00Yes that just blessed me so much. I'm I'm so grateful to know that part of your story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah God God did a lot with John John Bunyan.
SPEAKER_00Yes yes I meant to that yeah well thank you very much for having me on thank you all right friends I hope this episode was an encouragement to your heart uh and just a blessing to you and whatever you're going through I know this is such a tough subject so please don't hesitate to reach out if you have questions about any of the topics that we covered you can always use like I was saying that text feature to send a question in or you can reply right on YouTube. Also like I said before if you found this episode helpful please be sure to leave a review and spread the word about keeping the citadel with your friends. If you've been listening a while you know I like to leave you all with a charge today my charge is less of a rallying cry and more of a prayer for your heart. So here is my charge to you trust him that's the charge trust him because he's safe to trust Romans 8 18 through 25 says for I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed in us. For creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility not willingly but because of him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption of sons, the redemption of our bodies for in this hope we are saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see we wait for it with patience. Are you waiting with patience dear sister? Are you putting your hope in the promise of heaven in this life you might find yourself groaning from the bondage your body has to corruption but have courage dear heart we have the promise of resurrection God has not forgotten about you. Here's your prayers and he cares you might not know why he ordained for you to have the story he has given you but you do know who he is cling to the truth of his character. Remember that he loves you and your children more than you could possibly imagine. Rehearse his promises over and over to your heart so that you do not let the lies of the enemy seep in find your comfort in knowing that the one who holds you was also a man of sorrows well acquainted with grief. He is near to the brokenhearted and he won't waste your suffering. Do not let your suffering become your identity let your grief spur you to action in service of the King though your hands might not be full of babies your heavenly father will still fill them with good works for you to do so be used by him look for the many gifts he has bestowed upon you and let him tell a story with your life that far surpasses anything you could have imagined for yourself. Until next time embrace your high calling live a better story and keep the flame of your citadel burning brightly