9: Finding Your Way When Everyone Has An Opinion (Pt. 2)

We live in a world where everyone has a strong opinion, especially when it comes to faith and belief. But what does it look like when your own faith journey leads you to feeling it necessary to challenge existing opinions? 

We began this conversation 2 weeks ago in PART 1,  discussing things like: outgrowing what you were taught, thinking differently amongst conformity, reconnecting with cultural roots, and how mystery and curiosity can lead you through a journey of finding your own way. 

Today, in PART 2, we go deeper into exploring those talking points and more with Max leading the way via his background in theology and philosophy.

How can we find our own way through the great mystery that is belief, religion, and spirituality? 

Join the conversation:
What is your current relationship with faith/belief? How are you navigating places in your life that diverge from what may be the status quo?

Send us a text or join our Discord server to share your response: https://discord.gg/gdTMBzkNjY

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INTRO MUSIC
Track & Field - Arc De Soleil

#faithandfear #ThePassionfrootPodcast #Passionfroot #deconstruction

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I think when people have been overexposed to like dogmatism, then it makes being definitive seem like it's like, oh no, I don't want to go back there. But like the thing that's cool about like having something solid that you can hold on to, that's nice in and of itself. But the crazy thing about the great mystery is that it doesn't get less mysterious just because you have something that you can hold. Like the it the mystery part is so big, you're not gonna run out of mystery. I have so much stuff that I definitively believe theologically, and I don't think it's really ever reduced the mystery of God for me. Welcome to Passion Fruit, where we navigate life, purpose, and faith outside the box. I'm Max.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I'm Evan, I'm Mel, I'm Darcy, and I'm Adwa. Let's dive in.

Welcome to part TWO

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Cool. Welcome back to the Passion Fruit podcast. We are doing kind of a part two to a recently filmed episode. So if you haven't listened to Faith, Fear, and Finding Your Own Way Part One, I mean hopefully we don't we haven't changed the title by the time we release it. But if you haven't listened to that, uh try checking out part one first. There are gonna be some things in this episode that will make more sense if you've heard the first one. If you are really bold and you feel like I'm just gonna like go in blind, by all means be my guest. But it might be a little weird. And if you like making it a little weird, then I like you. Thank you for tuning in. Um, so as I mentioned, the topic today is faith, fear, and finding your own way. Part two. And what I wanted to accomplish with this is kind of build on the conversation we had last time we were together. Adja, you were the lead on that episode, and you brought up a lot of really interesting questions, especially as it concerns navigating the dynamics of other people's pressure when it comes to your beliefs, other people's pressure when it comes to what you should and shouldn't think. And I personally felt like there was a lot of really interesting themes that were just bubbling underneath the surface there, and I wanted to dig into some of those a little bit deeper. I especially noticed that um leave that in for the listeners. I especially noticed that um there were some things that we didn't quite get to from your notes. Like the notes that you provided us beforehand, there was a bunch of stuff that was like really, really good stuff that like kind of got into the conversation, but I felt like we could explore it a little bit more. Um, and so that's what I wanted to do today. Also, as I predicted at the start of this, I'm just going, How are you guys doing today? How how's it going to speak? Hello.

SPEAKER_06 2:59

Doing great, doing great. Max, as I've said before, I do enjoy listening to you talk. So it's not a bad thing, per se. And I'm assuming our listeners who, you know, willingly listen to our podcast also enjoy listening to you talk. But yeah, I'm really excited for this conversation. Um, as you meant as you like alluded to, I think the last conversation was really great at kind of starting some things. And we realized very quickly, oh shoot, this needs to be a part two, maybe even a part three. I mean, this topic of faith obviously could go on. What that's like part of the core of our podcast. So obviously we're gonna be talking about faith for a long time. Um, but like faith and deconstruction and finding your own way. We kind of skimmed the surface a little bit, I think, in the last podcast, just because of the time we have, and we have a little bit more time now, and we can dig in a little bit more. And yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I'm with you, Darcy and Max. And I'd say that right now these themes are even more front of mind for me because I'm currently joining in from Ghana, West Africa, which is a very spiritual country. So I'm really navigating and reflecting on everything we're gonna discuss. So I'm excited to dive in.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Nice. Yeah. Okay, and I do think this is really cool. This will be the first time we have Ajua in Ghana.

SPEAKER_05 4:21

Yes.

Summary of what we talked about in part 1

What to do with presuppositions?

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Literally on the on the podcast. Um if you all don't know, that's her handle for her Instagram. So if you're not following, her content is also great in its own right. All right, so in our previous episode, we talked about um things like your faith evolving and like outgrowing the things that you were taught. Um, we talked about the courage that it takes to think differently in contexts that demand conformity. And we talked about reconnecting with roots, uh, again, particularly relevant with Ajua being back in the motherland. Um, and we talked about, yeah, reconnecting with your roots, mystery and curiosity, and how those can play a part in finding your place, finding where you belong on your own terms. I want to dig into each of these um at a new level. So as a kind of revision point, I want to put this question forward to the both of you, and I I would actually like to hear your thoughts on this. Um what is the best way to approach a topic? Option A put aside all of your presuppositions and assumptions and try your best to reach a state of objectivity, or B consciously bring all of your suppositions and assumptions to bear on the issue while you know you're still open to reviewing them. What would you see as the benefits, or like you could say like which one do you think is better and why do you think someone would be attracted to either of those options?

SPEAKER_06 6:03

Um this this kind of feels like a little bit whenever you're asked a question in school and there's like an obvious right answer.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Obviously, I'm very obviously leaning towards B, but like I I think there's reasons why a lot of us feel inclined towards A as well, which is also worth talking about. So Right.

SPEAKER_06 6:21

Yeah, and my thoughts on A is that it feels impossible like to put away, you know, all your presupposit prop presuppositions and even like maybe biases and things like that and bring almost like a clean mind to a conversation like that. That sounds really difficult to me. Um, though I'm sure lots of people practice that and and try to do that. But B is hard too, to still carry those and try to figure out, you know, how they fit into whatever situation you're bringing them into. Um because you're still you're still trying to be objective, I'd say, in that situation by um being aware of those presuppositions.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Right.

SPEAKER_06 7:01

But giving something else a chance, but then you're trying to balance everything at once. Yeah, it's it definitely sounds difficult.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Even like recognizing something as a presupposition is in a weird sense like kind of trying to get at objectivity in a weird way.

SPEAKER_06 7:16

Yes, I don't know. Yes, no, that uh that's a hundred percent true. Um I feel like every day I learn about biases of mine that you know I just take for granted. And then I realize, oh, this is you know, I picked this up along the way somewhere and I didn't know I was carrying it, but there it is.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

How about you, Aswell?

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yes, I'm with you both, Max and Darcy. I think it's much more fanciful to think that we can put aside those presuppositions that we carry. And I almost think it's more authentic to embrace the beliefs that you have and the ideas that have become ingrained through your unique life experiences, and then from that place have that empathy for someone else. That the reason why they have that point of view and their belief is because they've also gone through certain experiences that are important to them. So for me, it's it's B.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

It's B.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Um, and I think the benefits of that are being honest and authentic. And I think there's a lot of issues when we try and pretend that we are not carrying any biases and we're trying to be objective because let's be real, there is no objectivity. So true. Oh, well, my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Well, either there's no if there is objectivity, do we have access to it, right? Like even if there is an objective truth, like can you get there?

SPEAKER_06 8:50

No, that's such a good point. And and like we live, like we do live in a world where perspectives and different different ways of seeing the world is everything because that's where humans existing in different experiences, different places amongst different people, etc. etc. etc. So like all we have are our different perspectives. So yeah, I agree with everything both of you guys just said.

The risk of groupthink

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Noise. All right. I'm going to because that was I think that was like a very, very preliminary question. I want to specifically ask Ajua something, because in our last episode, you had put some stuff in the show notes and questions that you had kind of directed towards me that I thought were really interesting because you specifically mentioned the concept of groupthink, and you asked me to talk about what are the dangers of groupthink. And it's interesting because groupthink is oddly enough not something that's really been in my wheelhouse, so to speak. Like I understand what the concept is, but it's not something that I'm deeply familiar with at a like academic level or something. So I first wanted to ask you what is it that made that feel like a relevant topic to you? Like what made you put that in the notes? Why groupthink of all things?

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Well, uh, that is such a good question, and I love how this is deflected back to me because we covered in the last episode. But it actually was inspired by a conversation I had with one of all of our friends where we were describing our feelings toward being in church, uh being in a church service right now, specifically where we are at in our spiritual faith journeys, and feeling like when you show up to a space like that where you're gathered supposedly for the same purpose, if you have reached a place in your faith journey where you're questioning what that group is teaching and what that group is collectively believing in, you can feel like you are divergent. Uh, I love that movie, by the way. Uh never seen it. I you have to see it, does it? I think it's so relevant. You've seen it, Max. Congratulations. And I think that even that film is kind of illustrative of this idea of groupthink where maybe you're challenging the status quo, what you've been taught to believe, and you no longer feel comfortable in spaces where everyone is supposedly taking a belief as the truth. And so for me, that question is inspired by are there other people who are feeling this? Are they feeling like they are the divergent, a group that once felt home to them? And that's why I have been exploring this for myself because even I've been to a church service recently and I'm no longer singing the hymns in the same way I used to sing them. I'm no longer listening to the messages with the same, I would say, open, unquestioning heart. And I'm looking around and I'm seeing people nodding their heads and speaking after the message about how much it resonated with them. And I'm thinking, it feels a bit inauthentic for me now to be like, yeah, that was such a great message. And because I'm not really feeling like I'm part of the group. So that's where that idea of groupthink was put forward for me to kind of discuss and get your thoughts on as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yeah. That's really good. That's that's I think really helpful additional context for that. And I think we kind of collectively experienced that even when we were all together and we went to church together. Uh, I I know that there were individuals in our group who were sitting there just being like, this feels not like how church has always felt. And, you know, that's a very real thing. Um, Darcy, you looked like you wanted to say something.

SPEAKER_06 13:00

Um, not particularly. No. Uh I've I mean, I was thinking the entire time Radio was talking and just like relating for sure a lot. Like, I don't think I just had this conversation with Evan, actually, recently, who is another person that's a part of Fashion Fruit, not in this episode, but she's been in many before, and I wish she was in this one. That'd be very fun. But she and I were talking recently, and we just kind of mentioned how like I and and she, she agreed with me. I don't feel like I could really like sit through a worship service at all the way I used to before. Like it doesn't like serv sermons especially, but even like praise music, like none of it is really speaking to me anymore. And I don't know if it can ever speak to me in like the way it did before again, because like now I'm I'm just so aware like of all the techniques they use, right? To speak to you like emotionally. You know, the in the last five minutes of the sermon when he's you know bringing out the the point that you're gonna take home, it's like the the piano starts playing, or the yeah. Um, and like even just patterns of public speaking, um I know these are like best practices, and it's good to adopt best practices, but I guess becoming aware of those, that like this the pastor is using these, he's been trained for years and years and years. He knows how to make a a sentence like really get through to you. And like I I have I do feel a little bit like Adriel, you were saying, maybe this is rephrasing it a little bit, but like you've been looking down and like you're looking up and you're like, Wait, like you become aware a little bit. Yeah, um, and I yeah, so I'm not I'm not saying that sermons and church services are horrible and need to stop what they're doing, but it's just I've started seeing it from a different perspective now, and it's weird, yeah. Feeling that.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah. Especially if you're if you're kind of stepping back from it and you're analyzing it, you're you're like looking like what are the methods, what are the strategies? Um, but it's kind of to use an allegory of sorts, it's kind of like listening to a song and be and like really, really focusing on like, man, I wonder, I wonder what kind of guitar he has. Is that a Gibson? Is that a Fender? Right? And it's like that, I mean, that's an important part of how it's getting to you, but it's also like, yeah, you're you're not listening to the music itself anymore. And that that probably sounds a little moralistic per se, but like what once you become aware of form, uh, it it becomes it can it can really distract you, it can really take you. I don't know why I pronounced the word distract that way. That was really weird. It can it can thoroughly distract you and or just become like a full focus point unto itself, right? Like, oh, this there's this whole thing.

SPEAKER_06 15:49

Yeah, um I see what you're doing. You can't get me anymore with that.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

And it's like, okay, why does it have to be a strategy? Like, why can't they just unfiltered provide me an experience of the divine? Something like that. But then the question is, does anyone do that? Right. Because I mean all spirituality is practiced through some kind of ritual, and all ritual is human cultural technology.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Exactly.

Individual vs Collective ways of knowing

SPEAKER_02 16:14

So it's it's one of those things where, and this kind of gets us to one of the things I want to focus on is like, how do you, as a knower, as a person who is trying to know things, as a person who's trying to relate to truth claims in the world, um, how is our individual act of knowing related to trust in other people? Right? How how how much can you really confirm absolutely for yourself? And and what I really want to especially dig into, especially because we've you know, we've constantly alluded to culture, especially you and I, Adjua, we've we've done a lot of alluding to like, well, there's cultural dynamics. So I want to talk about individualism and collectivism. So, for example, I'm gonna read a bunch of statements, um, and you guys tell me, and I'm sorry, Darcy, it's gonna feel like you know that there's an obvious expected answer at the end of this, but it's for a rhetorical point. But like, okay, here's a bunch of statements. And I pulled some of these from our last episode show notes. Everyone has an opinion. There's a lot of noise of too many opinions. I want to stay true to my own voice or my own point of view. I am alone on my spiritual journey. I need to figure it out for myself. This is just between me and God. Individualistic or collectivistic thought patterns.

SPEAKER_06 17:50

Definitely individual.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Individualist heavily individualistic ways of thinking. And conversely, faith has implications for belonging or not belonging in a community. I am thinking about different belief systems from different cultures. Group think is a risk that I worry about. There is pressure to conform to group expectations and perspectives. Don't question the pastor or the elder or the priest or the ritual specialist or the elder, etc. Individualistic or collectivistic concerns.

SPEAKER_05 18:29

Collectivistic.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Collectivistic. Yeah, everyone knew that the answer was even I'm looking at this like that was a really stupid way to set this up. Why did I do that? But I mean, so here's what I think is really interesting, Ajua, what you put together in the show notes for the last episode. I was like, it's it's very interesting because on the one hand, you're concerned about groupthink, you're concerned about feeling these pressures externally from a larger group of people that you are trying to belong to, but maybe also trying to differentiate yourself from. And and immediately there, and you're and you're asking questions about like, do I think this is true? And so immediately what you have is a push and pull between both collective and individual concerns, which is interesting because in your case, Ajua, uh your push and pull is also between the West and the Global South, or the proverbial Orient to use like really, really outdated language. But you get what I'm saying, right? Like it it's a manifest, it's a micro-manifestation of a larger dichotomy, which I think is really interesting. Um and so I want to ask you guys, how can recognizing when we're using individualistic and collectivistic patterns of thought, how can that play into how we approach our spiritual journeys? And that might take some reflection, but like how how might it help to recognize when we're using either one of those lenses? And I guess maybe also well, think about that, and also how often do you use either a lens? Like which one do you think is more you?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Hmm. Can I just say that? This is fantastic. Like, my mind is blown right now.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

I thought you might like this one.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

And Darcy, not to interrupt any train of thought that you're having right now, but I'm also getting this reminder of a video you made for the Passion Fruit channel on YouTube about you were quoting Barry, I've forgotten his name. Um Wendell Berry. Yeah. And I can't remember if that I think that was in the context you were speaking, I think, about collectivism and individualism. Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_06 20:59

Yeah, it was a video about community and like arguing for being in community.

unknown 21:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

This is another perennial passion fruit question, right? Is community and belonging and groups. But that's the that's the thing. When you um when we had our spiritual podcast, I don't I don't even know if it was that I think it might have been a private conversation when we were all in Australia together. But Darcy, you had said something along the lines. I think I'd said to Evan, like, one of the things that like not bothers me about her deconstruction, but like the thing that keeps me awake at night is like because I value my ability to like share spiritual and theological insights with people, if I have a friend who leaves the faith, does that mean that I'm no longer valuable to that person? And Darcy, you had said something to the effect of like, I it never even occurred to me like, how does someone deconstructing or leaving the faith, how does that affect the people that they leave behind? Like, how Does the community feel when like they feel like, oh, we lost one? You know what I mean? And so it's it's these really, really interesting questions about like, oh right, like if we're thinking about community and belonging, then like the act of challenging and questioning is never purely individual. Like even if you're doing it as an individual, it has implications beyond yourself, right?

SPEAKER_06 22:24

So I mean we can like we can hate on you know aspects of collectivism and aspects of individualism, of course. There's you know, there's downsides to both. Um I guess with collectivism, we could, you know, find issue with the fact that maybe they tend to be more groupthink or they tend to put more pressure on the people within their community to think the same thing, to do the same thing, believe the same thing. Um, and we can like, yeah, like I said, hate, we can hate on that, we can have an issue with that. But it's totally understandable because this is such a high stakes thing. I mean, religion is just about as high stakes as it gets, um, because it it kind of has to do with the entirety of life itself. And for many religions, you know, the where you're going after, especially Christianity, like where you're going after this world. So um, and then and then like you said, like even maybe on a smaller scale, just the feeling of being able to be in communion with your friends and think similar things and be able to have conversations and kind of help each other along on that journey. Um, like I don't it's maybe it's an it is an issue, or like maybe the ideal community would be one that has that that that aspect of community, but still allows, I guess, self-actualized actualization. It still allows, allows like a level of individualism. But that's I that's definitely much easier said than done because it is really difficult to be in community with people that believe such starkly different things. It it it feels unsafe on one level. Um, it's the path, it's not it's it's the path of most resistance, I guess, not the path of least resistance. It's difficult, and that's why like even today, I mean, we have we struggle across these dividing lines with each other, um, coming from the states, liberal, conservative, like these are very, very strong dividing lines. And it's so much easier for one group to just be among its own because that comes with less resistance, it comes with less conflict. Um, but I think the ideal, you know, collectivistic community would be one that has a ton of different perspectives within it. And it just takes effort to learn to work and come and like um what's the word? I guess get along with each other and yeah, and learn from each other, but also have good boundaries. These are these are tough things to ask, I think, of somebody.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Very and and also tough when you're trying to get multiple people to cooperate and do it at the same time, which is one of the things that makes group stuff hard in the first place, right? So yeah, real stuff. Agile, I'm really curious for any perspective you have on this.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

I really loved what you shared just then, Darcy, because I find myself very I feel a strong sense of belonging with both of you and with the entire Passion Fruit team. I feel like what you're describing, Darcy, an ideal community where everyone can show up as themselves and still be embraced and loved, and there's a place for them there. And quite honestly, this pull and push between what you said, Max, collectivism and individualism, and linking it to my own personal experience, feeling torn between the West and the global south, a question that I've always been pro preoccupied with is where do I belong? So that is something that I still struggle with a lot today. And even when I think about my own faith journey, which started from pretty much a very young age, I was brought up in different churches, I never really remember feeling like I belonged to the the Sunday school or the Sabbath school or the scout, what we call in Seventh-day Adventism Pathfinder groups. I always felt like this person on the outside. So I would say that while I I'm interested in, I think that shows two, I think it shows both sides. You're concerned with yourself and how you relate to the collective, but then you're also concerned with the collective and how you can belong in that group. And it's it's a really tough one. And yeah, I I think that for me is something I would still need to reflect on because I don't really think I fully understand how that affects me today in the sense of how I go about relating uh to a group. But the one thing that I I am thinking of is I think when it comes back to what is the group's purpose, because shout out to a pastor of mine from one of the churches I've attended, Sydney Ghana Seventh-day Adventist Church, Pastor Felix Apokujenfee. He literally from when I was in high school and became aware of his church, he would very frequently reach out to me and ask me how I am, call me, ask me how my family was, how school studies work. And he he's done this up until now, and that's well over, I think, going up to 10 years or around that time. And that's what makes me return to that group, is because I feel like someone there actually cares about who I am and not just whether I'm thinking the same things as them. And so I think that's a really key part here. And I think that that's what Seventh-day Adventism, for example, that was the appeal for my family, um, specifically my mum, was the Seventh-day Adventist health message and this idea that people were concerned with your well-being, your mental well-being, physical, spiritual. So I think there's a lot to be said for when a community is caring for the whole person and not just their quote-unquote salvation or bringing them into alignment with the moral code of that group. Yeah. Right.

Ways of knowing: The COVID case study

SPEAKER_02 28:44

That's really good. Thank you for that, Adjula. That's like really, really insightful. Thank you both. Like, I know every time we do one of these like spiritual topics, I feel like I'm pressing people for like very personal and like, even if it's not like a personal story, it's like it's these are like you know, very probing thoughts. So anytime people are willing to share on that, like I do, I value that. Um, and you've both said things that if we use the time well, I'm hoping we can get to all of them. Because Darcy, I've got a little case study example that I think will bring us back to talking about your American context. Um and Ajuano, you just said that you're not exactly sure how that potion pole dynamic plays out in like how you approach knowing things. So this is why I framed the rest of the questions around case studies.

SPEAKER_06 29:33

Um this is a very um this is a very you thing to do. Like theological seminary philosophy. This is a very max thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Yeah, it probably does.

SPEAKER_06 29:46

But it's good. It's good. I love a case study.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Yeah, yes, let's do a let's do a fun little case study. Okay, so let's talk about individual wisdom, individual insight, and collective accountability and authority and things like that. So let's rewind our brains five years to the year 2020. And even though all of us are currently inside as we record this, let's pretend that it's 2020 and we are inside because we're not allowed to go outside because it's COVID. Um I would love to hear any thoughts y'all have on I did my own research versus trust the science.

SPEAKER_06 30:36

This is so interesting because I think I mean I the the I did my own research side obviously has some very strong implications um for like the kind of people that you're talking about. And yet I don't think there's like of course there's nothing wrong with doing your own research. Like we're talking about like forging your own path, right? Like in this conversation, or this is coming off of the back of the last conversation we had forging your own path, exploring what you truly believe. Um, and so, anyways, in the States, that panned out as a lot of people developing these crazy conspiracy theories, and like, yeah, you gotta do your research, you gotta look into what's actually going on. Um, and it ended up with just yeah, a lot of craziness. But I don't think that's a bad thing, and I would actually advocate for that. Like, I yeah, don't just take every single thing everybody tells you at face value. I think it's important to try to figure out what you think on your own. At the end of the day, it's just a really complex issue.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Well, so I agree, complex issue. Now this is the fun part because I'm not debating you, but like the other side that I think there is is the question, what qualifies as research?

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Right?

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Because people, because there's the colloquial way we use the word research to just be like, I I tried to look into something or like I Googled it. And then there's research, like stuff that is like qualitative or quantitative and peer-reviewed and done in like an academic setting with controls and whatever, and like research in a more formalized sense. And the question then becomes like everyone should, I I actually completely agree with you, like everyone should individually be responsible, like, or at least take responsibility for figuring out what they think and like trying to process it. But the question then becomes, is everyone always capable of doing so adequately in every area?

SPEAKER_06 32:39

Yeah. And especially emphasis in every every area, too. Like there's so many, like, like yes, I just said I don't think people should always take everything at face value, but also if you're gonna research and question and truly, like you said, like truly in-depth research, trusted sources, things like that, everything that you interact with, like that's ridiculous. You do kind of at the end of the day, you have to trust people and take things at face value. Um yeah, and I think a lot of people, I I mean, even myself included, like in my deconstruction process, like research can be a little questionable sometimes. Um, for me, that looks like listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos. I'm always aware. I'm always aware, like, okay, this is this one person's perspective, and like the one the sources they're listening to. I'm not getting this any of this from a direct source. Um, but then there's a question of like the time. Do you have the time to follow down, follow that rabbit trail down to where you should? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Yeah. Agile, how about you?

SPEAKER_00 33:37

This is so fascinating. I just I was so submerged in what you guys were saying.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yeah, she's just really I really am.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

I'm having an amazing time.

SPEAKER_04 33:53

Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

I I think that was a really interesting time for me because I think I would say my brush with conspiracist theories was I became really interested in living off the grid, the tiny house movement. And there were a lot of people I came across on YouTube specifically who were very big on the individual wisdom that they had discerned, and then they had made certain decisions to uh disconnect from government services and just be self-reliant. And I resonated with the message of being empowered, like you say, Darcy, I think that that period was useful in the sense of getting us to be critical thinkers and perhaps question some of the things that we took for granted. Uh but at the same time, I would say I don't think that I think look, I I think extremism in any form is dangerous. Uh I I think for me, I definitely trust the science in many cases because I respect the process, like you said, Max. There is a process that doctors go through to become doctors they have trained. Uh and I trust the medical advice uh of a lot of things that Western medicine uh promotes. But I think at the same time, this goes back to what you you asked us, Max, about uh what what did you ask us right at the beginning? Oh, yes, yes, taking other people's points of view on or like coming with our own perspectives. So just going to the point that everyone is gonna have their own experience. I know that there are some places within Africa where people really have always relied on traditional herbal medicines, and that is what they rely on. But for myself, am I necessarily, even though I have a connection to Africa, does that mean I'm gonna go and completely rely on that? Uh no, probably not. Um, so I think I've just kind of spiraled in my thinking back to my brush with like an interest in this taking your individual wisdom and see how far you can go to uncover the truth. But there's certain truth that I just don't think I'm gonna find by myself. Uh so that's where the collective wisdom that was being shared, I I would draw upon that. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:33

Yeah. With COVID, it was really interesting because like I feel like we have certain reasons, mostly financial reasons, to distrust, to distrust, mistrust, I don't know, mistrust like big um like medical or pharmaceutical corporations. We have great reasons to mistrust them. Um and you know, obviously there's a lot of people that are like pursuing like alternative medicine, things like that. I I even feel like this many of the same people that maybe did get the vaccine and like really encourage other people to get the back vaccine during COVID times, maybe years before were people that were pursuing more alternative medicines and things like that. Like people, you know, shift in and out of their own sides, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Um or there's more than two sides to any of the things. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:26

You're so right. I need to honestly, that's a really good point. It's difficult to not think in binaries in the world we live in, but there's so many different perspectives out there. It's just a difficult topic in general. Um, I think where COVID was concerned, like it was this really big, serious thing, like big pandemic. And yet, even within that, um, I think some people were right to question whether they should get the vaccine or not. Like I know people that couldn't get the vaccine because of actual existing health conditions. So it's so much less than black and white. It's so much more of a gray area. Um yeah, I think a good balance of like doing your own research, but also not just insisting, stubborn, stubbornly insisting that you don't trust big organizations. Like you said, Ajua, extremes are never good in either way. Finding the middle ground between those extremes is really important in every situation.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Right. Yeah, I mean, that's the kind of the thing. It's like there's a lot of really good reasons to distrust big institutions and and powerful organizations. Does that mean that you distrust all organizations or institutions? Like, because at some point that'll become non-functional, right? In the same way that if you blindly trust all institutions, that will also not work well for you, right? Um and it's interesting because again, it's it ends up being this weird push and pull where I think a lot of the times most of us make a mistake, because again, we also stereotype the world as either being the individualistic West with no collective anything in it, and the collectivistic East and South with no regard for individuals. But in reality, most of us get pulled between those competing instincts, and I think a lot of the time, I I'm personally of the opinion that a lot of the time a lot of our mistakes are just we ha we default to using the wrong one in a lot of situations. Um but yeah, even the COVID example, and this is coming from someone who was like uh really didn't have much doubts at all about the value of getting the vaccine. Trust the science is not a scientific statement.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Right?

SPEAKER_02 39:33

It's an epistemological statement. It's a statement about belief, which means it's actually a it like trust the science isn't about science, it's about faith.

SPEAKER_06 39:42

Yeah, and trusting the people that communicate the science.

Competing ways of knowing

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Right. And and so what do you mean by science? Do you mean scientists themselves? You mean the organizations that they work for? Do you mean the government? Do you mean the media that mediates it to you? Because there's all so many layers where distrust could happen that have nothing to do with distrusting science or trusting science. True. And again, the trust is not a scientific thing. That's a value thing, that's an ethical, moral, epistemological thing. Um, which then raises the question, like, oh, how do you have science without faith, right? Because or faith without science. Good point. Again, another supposed duality dichotomy that we've inherited in the post-Enlightenment West that maybe is not as helpful of a dichotomy as we think it is. I mean, what is a natural remedy? Is that not also a form of science? Is that not a m uh a form of knowing? Um, you know, now there's a lot of people who are trying to say, okay, look at indigenous spiritualities around the world. Is science able to confirm them? Because, you know, cultural blinders on the West were not at some points willing to even consider that indigenous wisdom uh of various sorts in various places could actually be rational or scientific. But then if if things that we classified as superstition end up being scientifically verifiable, then what does that mean that science is, and what does that mean that superstition is? And what would that mean for Western science's adversarial relationship with Western Christianity, which has been fighting this fight since the Enlightenment, right? Like all of these factors are at play.

SPEAKER_06 41:32

I was listening to a podcast recently that was talking about how something typically does better if there's another something standing in direct opposition for to it. Um, and I guess that's maybe why, whether intentionally, like there's somebody behind the scenes like moving the strings of the puppet, or unintentionally, which I feel like that's more likely, like we just end up with these, like I said, binaries or opposites or whatever, um, maybe out of necessity for each other, for for like Christianity to, I don't know, thrive more. Perhaps it has to have this big enemy, which in many ways has been science, um, like the new atheists, things like that. And maybe vice versa. Like something having an enemy helps that thing perform better, get more get more people strongly like you know, believing and pledging their allegiance to that thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

I mean, it's interesting. Like, I it kind of makes me think like Christians have always tried to defend the faith and argue for the faith, but the Christian apologist as a modern phenomenon only really exists because of everything after the Enlightenment. Right? It only exists because there's people who will passionately argue for atheism, and so the Christian apologists are like, Well, time to armor up, time to suit up, and I have to argue with the same level of intensity for Christianity, and then everyone is a philosophy bro and adopts a philosophy bro attitude that maybe isn't very nice. But you know, that that's I think that's kind of descriptive of that intuition you're having, Darcy. And not that I'm gonna get into this, but the philosophically perceptive among our listeners might be catching an inkling of someone named Hegel, um, and the Hegelian dialectic where ideas are formed via ideas fighting each other, right? Um, and that's a huge oversimplification, something we could maybe get into another time. But you are tapping into something that is very much a current in philosophical history there. So I want to commend that insight on your part. I just something else I had written in my notes here that kind of pertains to this too, is that even within because all of us in our Christian experience come from a Protestant tradition, and the Protestant tradition defined itself in history as sola scriptura, um, the Bible alone, but in a context where literacy Was not common. There was not widespread literacy across Europe. And so the reformers had to make that part of their policies. Like, we're going to educate people, we're going to teach people how to read, and we're going to translate the Bible out of Latin. We're not just going to do Latin anymore. We're going to translate into the vulgar tongue, into the common languages of wherever. And that became what we've inherited now as the read the Bible for myself, which is kind of like the Protestant cornerstone. Um, and it's it's come far enough down the line that we can now sit here and be like, uh, being pressured into having private Bible study time or like quiet time in the morning with my Bible feels weird and incomplete. And yet, how many people died for the idea of like this book should be translated into like the common tongue?

SPEAKER_05 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Right. And not just interpreted by the institution.

SPEAKER_06 44:55

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but and that's like that's knowing knowledge being owned by an institution versus knowledge being accessible to the individual.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

Right.

SPEAKER_06 45:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

And then, but conversely, for any Catholic listeners, because I'm not throwing anyone's religion under the bus, Catholics look at Protestants and say, You guys don't even like, why would you think you knew what was supposed to be in the Bible in the first place? We did that, right? Or like and then they have the claim of like apostolicity that like the thing that guarantees the accuracy of the Bible is the church's tradition and the fact that it's all of the like, you know, if you find your local priest and he has a local bishop, that guy was trained by a guy who was trained by a guy who was trained by a guy, etc. etc., who was trained by Polycarp, who was trained by John, who was trained by Jesus, right? And that's kind of the claim to fame there. Is like there's a whole tradition that exists in the institution, that exists in the culture, that exists in the structures, and that belonging to that structure is what preserves truth and is what preserves your sense of safety. Like, yeah, we've we've got good guardrails up here, we won't lead you astray. And so for them, they were looking at the emerging Protestant Reformation, be like, Oh, you think everyone's gonna read the Bible for themselves and read it accurately for themselves? You think they're capable of doing their own research, so to speak? And so, and and for me to bring up the COVID comparison, it's like, well, when it comes to religion, I'm a Protestant. So when it comes to that, I am on the do my own research side, read the Bible for myself side of things. And so I'm like, ah, I too am caught in the dichotomy of like wanting to trust my own individual intuition, but and yet also feeling like I'm part of a history and a structure that is beholden to people with more authority than me, who people who can read New Testament Greek better than me, um, etc. Right. So what do I do?

SPEAKER_05 46:58

Yeah, what do we do? That's the qu that's the question. How do we walk this line?

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't I don't presume to have the answer to say, like, how do we walk this line? Except, except for if you guys saw my story takeover where I was talking about the hermeneutical spiral. Did you guys happen to see that?

SPEAKER_06 47:18

No, no, I think I did. I think I did. I didn't quite understand everything you were saying, but I did see the story.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

It was a little high level, and that's why I'm uh reading about Derrida right now, so I can get into deconstruction a bit, and then some of the other things. In basically in that story takeover, for those who are listening who are interested, I did kind of like a compare and contrast with Jacques Derrida and Hans. Is it Hans? I don't know. I forget his first name. Gautamer. Gautamer, who's kind of like the thinker behind hermeneutics. Hermeneutics gets taught to everyone in seminary, and that's like the the principles of interpretation. Um there's this concept called the hermeneutical circle, where you go from like a particular piece of a text, a particular concept, and you read that particular part in light of the greater whole, the greater context, right? And something about the greater context informs how you read the particular part. But then the particular part, once you understand it really well, like individual parts of a story or a text or a philosophy or a culture can tell you something about the whole. And all of a sudden you end up in the circle where it's like the little details inform the big picture and the big picture informs the little details kind of ad infinitum. And and that's it maybe kind of feels like the wait, where do I go with this? It's just a vicious circle, which is when the idea of the hermeneutical spiral comes in, where it's like it is a circle, but it's going somewhere, right? Like rather than infinitely looping in a circle, a spiral actually has forward motion as well instead of just circular motion. And so I wonder if there is a sort of hermeneutical spiral between the collective and the individual, and then that's what we're meant to do is just constantly cycle between both perspectives and use them to inform each other forever.

SPEAKER_06 49:13

Um yeah, and I wonder if we see that happening. Like, I I mean, I think we are almost doomed as humanity to go back and forth between the two. We're gonna lean far far one way and then far the other way, and just that's just gonna happen. But like I do think, at least in our time right now that like we're observing around us, like I see this pull from the individualistic culture that I live in in America, a pull towards community and loc local, like where you live locally, supporting your local community, like shopping small, right? Or um just people arguing for just getting together, going to third spaces. I mean, you made a post on that, Max. Um, so I see I definitely see maybe in a small my mic just almost did across my desk. Um in a small way, I'm seeing that spiral happen in my lifetime, which is giving me uh some confidence in humanity. So right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

That's cool. I like that example.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

I would say that that's uh what I'm observing too, as well. Like I think even in the Western contexts, there is, especially I think since COVID, people have, I guess, it seems like there's a bit more room for people to have some empathy toward what other people are going through. Although we're quick to forget as humans. I do think, like you say, Darcy, there is now commu people who, through uh realizing that hyper-individualism leads to an unhealthy place, are now trying to support one another in different kinds of ways. So I really like that illustration you gave Max of this hermeneutic hermeneutic hermeneutical spiral. Hermeneutic spelled it.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

The hermeneutical spiral, the best Christian theological concept named after the Greek god Hermes. Oh, learned something. Since Hermes was the like communicator messenger god, right? And so hermeneutics, the principles of communication.

SPEAKER_06 51:23

That's pretty cool. Yeah, this is another topic entirely, but I have learned how much, how just how very much we in the Christian world have gotten from like the Greeks and the Romans. I mean our entire society, I guess, has gotten so many things from that.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

I mean, that's a big talking point too now, is that the Western world looks and says, like, well, what are our foundations, Greece and Rome? Um, and also is that the foundation of Christianity, Greece and Rome, rather than Israel and Judea or whatever? And and there's people who have those kinds of conversations. Um, it's also, and I've, you know, whether it be that one song that I'm always championing of myself, where I talk about how like in the Bible you see openness towards dialogue with the quote-unquote pagan cultures around. What does it mean that Christianity has so much Greco-Roman influence in it? What does that mean for all of the other cultures that Christianity might encounter? And how how how might synthesis happen, or has it already happened, or are we just doing that subconsciously even without realizing that we're doing it, right? Which I think I I might be tipping my hat towards what I think is happening there. But um, yeah, like it's it's one of those things where again it's a it's another one of those spirals where things are constantly influencing each other, or like what you said before, is like ideas are sharpening and strengthening and reinforcing each other by being in conflict, right? So yeah.

Belonging and being “volun-told”

SPEAKER_00 52:53

I I do want to get into ask both of your opinions on this. Okay. So specifically within my Christian Protestant circles that I've moved in, what I've observed of late, specifically, I guess, within Seventh day Adventism, because that's my community in some ways, there is this preoccupation with the end times. And in having this preoccupation with the end times, there's also this uptake of the mission to go out and share the good news and contribute to people finding God, finding Jesus, accepting him as their personal savior, and going to heaven. And so what I've observed is that often going to church now, and I think this plays into the individualistic communal debate or divide, is that there's now a an onus on the individual to serve their be of service in their churches. I this is my experience. So you it's no longer enough to just turn up to your church service, enjoy the service, say hello to people and go home. It's like, okay, you need to join this outreach group, you need to be part of this ministry, you need to give your gifts and talents in service to the Lord, you need to be doing this XYZ. And part of me is just wanting to get your thoughts as well on how this plays out when you live in a capitalistic world where the individual concerns you have might be really burdensome. That this idea of saving souls isn't necessarily at the top of your mind because you have to work, you have to worry about looking after your family, you have to figure out all the issues that are happening for you that maybe you can't be of service in that community as much as what the expectation is out there. And even though it's not said, it's almost like you're being judged and you're being considered as not doing enough for the community. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on is that something you've experienced? And where do you think how do you think that plays in people wanting to be part of a community or not like that?

SPEAKER_06 55:16

My immediate thoughts on that is I definitely grew up with that message too. Like you should get involved in the church, and especially as a youth, as a young person, there is always that emphasis on get the youth involved. Like we they're the next generation of our church. You guys need to start, you know, participating in in church service and whatnot. And truly, I have seen that as a good thing in general. Um I mean, I'm not particularly talking about like missions type of volunteering, like it's more so just like practical things, like I don't know, helping out with the community food drive or or simply helping out with song service, like things like that. Um from my perspective, I do see it again as a as a generally as a good thing because I think church in many ways has become kind of a consumerist product. Like people go to church to get something, right? Like to get a sermon, to get music, and it has become less about community. Like you may say hi to uh and not you, Edua, but the general you may say hi to like a few friends or like you know, hang out with your friends or be in your Sabbath school class for a little bit. But it's like it's kind of just become a big like, okay, I go to church once per week and that's it. Like I don't really invest in this community much. And so I actually see that push to get involved as a good thing for the sake of community, for taking ownership of it, for actually getting the benefits of community by like living and working within that community. Um, and that and that takes out the the other level that you brought in, Adua, of missions, of like going into all the world, of maybe even things that we you we don't really agree with. Um I mean, that's that's a like missions is obviously it's been done wrong, it's been done right. That's a different topic in entirely. Um, but yeah, just the general concept of getting involved with church. I actually I feel like I support it, but I don't think it should feel like, oh, you can't come to church and enjoy this community if you don't get involved. I don't think it should feel like that either.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Yeah. I think and it's a really good question, Adjula, because I am definitely someone who has felt at times like I'm just absolutely being milked um by church, like just to the point of genuine burnout and exhaustion, right? Where it's just like, bro, I'm doing so much stuff, like it's kind of crazy how much effort I'm putting into it.

SPEAKER_06 57:46

And you were the drummer, right? Like, or was a drummer or guitar player or everything.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

The time when I was the drum like when I was in Windsor and I played drums at the church, that was like a very light level of involvement. That was an extremely light level of involvement. Yeah. When I when I was like in my twenties, like I very much was overextending myself easily. Even like late teen years, I was overextending myself.

SPEAKER_06 58:13

Why was that? Was that like because of the theology track you went on? Was that because of your family?

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Like, why do you think it's because music it was because music, yeah, yeah. It's because church services kind of again with the whole consumerism thing, not just the consumerism thing, but the entertainment aspect of it that you know exists even in the most conservative churches, even if they if they don't admit it to themselves. But like, nobody in the 1800s, like your evangelism was a uh roadside show for all intents and purposes in a tent. Like that's that's what it was. Don't lie to yourself about history. It's a show. Um, and that means that like it the effort to put on church services, like, yeah, there's sound people, yeah, there's lighting people, if if that's a concern, tech, whatever, broadcast, but it so heavily falls on musicians. It so heavily falls on musicians, so much rehearsal, travel, moving equipment, planning the set, praying over it, um, just does like all of these things, and on top of like other types of community involvement too, right? So, like that's just that's just my way of saying like I had a very milkable skill um that that the church really heavily relies on. And I think I I greatly value the experience that I got out of it. I I really greatly value the experience that I got out of it, but I all it has also made me realize that the format does turn most of the congregation into passive consumers, but so does the sermon. The sermon also turns people into passive consumers. And one of the th I mean, frankly, frankly, one of the things I will tell people to do is go read the gospels, go read Jesus' ministry, and keep in the back of your mind, look for people interrupting him. And what you will find is that a huge part of Jesus' ministry is hit is him talking to people. Like, yeah, you every once in a while you get like a long sermon where it's just him talking, but even in those, you'll sometimes find instances where someone will be like, and then someone in the crowd said, Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me. And he's just like, I'm what? Right? And he's constantly getting interrupted, and people are asking him questions or even arguing with him. Um, and that's just reflective of Jewish practice in the synagogue, where the community would sit facing each other, not just in rows facing the back of people's heads, but facing each other. And the rabbi or whoever was leading out would sit and teach, and people would ask questions and argue back and say, What does that mean? Or like, but what if we looked at it this way? And the process of learning and teaching was dialogical. And what Christianity has inherited from the Roman Forum and Greco-Roman rhetoric schools is the professional monologue, the sermon, right? Rather than a community-based back and forth dialogue. That's one of the formal things that we've lost historically. Um and that does make a huge difference. It's one thing to say, like, oh, come get involved in church, if church is primarily getting together, eating food in someone's house, and then while you do that, talking about what's going on in your week, or having some the one literate person in the group read to everyone the latest epistle or read the psalms because I'm the only one here who reads Hebrew, and y'all are a bunch of Greek speakers, and you can't even read anyway. So I'm gonna whatever, right? Like any number of situations could pop up. But like doing that in a home setting where people can ask questions and be in proximity to each other, and then like service is like prepping the food and cleaning the room and making sure elderly such and such gets home safe. That's a very different kind of service than we need to put on the show. Yeah right, and and modern, like 20th century conservative Protestant culture has become so program centric and and reflects like corporate programming in a way that doesn't look anything like the thing that Jesus started when he was walking the earth.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:44

Drives absolutely crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

And and this is probably uh sounding like some of the sources of your disconsent, Tarz, Darcy, right? Definitely um and and Adjowa, to your point, like yeah, service, service is a wonderful, beautiful thing, but if you can't get behind, like one of the things that's always going to be demoralizing and discouraging is if the thing that people are demanding you get involved with doesn't inherently itself seem to be valuable, meaningful. Like, okay, it's one thing to be like, let's do a service project where we are regularly interfacing with the homeless in our town or providing them food or like actually sitting down with them and humanizing them, having a conversation. It's a completely other thing to be like, let's go stand outside of a mall and hand out pamphlets. You know what I mean? Where it's like the the goal is purely ideological or purely marketing, the come to our event is so much different than like service service, community service that benefits human well-being. And to your point about like, oh, the Adventist Church, it cares about people's well-being, right? Putting on a health seminar, which is like, okay, maybe you don't you don't adopt my fundamental beliefs, but you'll live better. You won't feel so tired, you'll be healthier, and that's also worth doing. I'm doing that because God thinks that's worth doing, that completely different model of service because it's not extractive, it's not transactional.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:13

Going back to what you said, comparing the s modern day sermon with what it may have looked like hundreds of years ago, with you know, meeting in somebody's house and some maybe one person still doing the reading, but like having that conversation. That to me, that latter example feels like the a good balance of collectivism and individualism. Because I think I feel like a sermon given to a big group of people is almost like the negative side of collective collectivism. Like we all just agree that we agree with like what's being said here. Um, and but the other other option is like you're still meeting as a community, as a collective, but then there's room and time for other voices to, like you said, be in dialogue with each other, and um, and then that's where the individual pops up in that collectivistic like setting.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:09

Yeah. That's good, I like that. That's a really good observation.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:12

Just tying it back to the point.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

Yeah, I think that there's something insightful in that. That like group I think I think what's insightful there is that like group dynamics are are uh at minimum easier to manage when it's a smaller group or a more local group or a more intimate group because you're not managing as much stuff. Um and like you you don't lose the individuals like you do in like a massive crowd, right? And so yeah, it can be group and individual at the same time more easily in that localized type of context.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

I I really love how that question I brought up about church and service and what service done well can actually look like, and then how We can actually express our individuality within a group. And it made me reflect on the fact that I've never really been part of a small group and really had a core group of people that I can grow alongside. Actually, passion fruit is probably my small group, actually. But I think it's so important for an individual person to feel seen, to feel like their contributions matter. And I definitely agree that having a sermon one-directional just preached at you, and there's no opportunity for dialogue. I think it does uh reinforce the programming that you're speaking about, Max. And then it's like, okay, everyone just goes home and where did we really unpack the ideas that bring us here together? So that's that's a really good point there that I think we can reflect on.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

And it's not even that there's no place for like someone to just give a presentation every once in a while. Like I think that that can work. Yeah. But like, you know, to the to the small point, small point, to the small group point, you know, you have Jesus preaching to thousands of people, and you have hundreds of people following him at a time, and then you have, look, I got 12 of you guys, and we're gonna spend a couple of years together, and we're gonna be weird together, and you guys are gonna ask me dumb questions, and I'm gonna get frustrated with you, and you're gonna get frustrated with me, and then we're gonna have to go do stuff in front of the like hundreds of people at a time. But there's this there's 12 of us here that need to like you know grow and reinforce each other. So that dynamic is even at play there, too, right? There's like there might be something that you can scale up to like there is such a thing as national concerns, there is such a thing as international concerns. There is such a thing as belonging to a very, very large community internationally, which is culture, which is heritage, which is all these things. And yet, sometimes the most effective thing or the most formative thing you can do is act locally on a small scale. And again, hermeneutical spiral, what happens at the small scale happens at the or means something at the larger scale, and vice versa. Yeah, right?

A brief reset!

SPEAKER_05 1:08:18

Yes, yes, true.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

So reciprocity being the big theme here. Okay, I feel like we've we've really gone in on that one, even I think more than I was expecting to see you, but that's really good. And I I think I'm glad that you guys also threw your own questions into the mix. That was really great. I really appreciate that. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:36

Um our best to keep up with you, Max.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:39

Oh, you guys are smart. You guys are very smart. Don't don't do that. No, no, no, no, no, don't do that. Um I do also have to be less insecure about the whole talking thing. So that's that's me. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:51

You have to be less secure about that, and I have to be less secure about uh everything else.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:02

I actually don't even know what I meant by that. It just came up. I think I knew that I'm not that insecure.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:06

If everyone, if everyone else doesn't know what it means, that's too bad. Okay. I have two more questions. Again, I don't want to push too hard if we're tired, but I do have two more broad questions or sections of questions that are uh curated with both of you in mind.

Epistemological luck

SPEAKER_06 1:09:26

I say we we see this thing to the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:28

See this thing through? Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:29

So with the Adacy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

Um let's go. Okay, I'll just do this in the order that I have it written down and trust that that was for good reason. Darcy, you've mentioned a few times a striking thought that has stuck with you throughout your deconstruction process. And that thought is, how lucky was I to have been born in the right religion? And then, of course, when you later on have asked harder questions and you reflect back on that thought that your younger self had, your reaction is how convenient.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:03

Right. Loads of sarcasm in loads of sarcasm.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:07

How how lucky, how how lucky indeed, how convenient. Now, here's the question I want to ask. Isn't it convenient to be right about anything?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:19

That's that's a very good point. That's deep.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

Aren't all beneficial circumstances related to your birth strangely convenient? Um, and this is kind of what I when you alluded to like your context as the United States, how much could you say about your experience of having been born in the USA, which is a song that I'm and it's in my head right now.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:45

So started singing it immediately.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:48

I shall not be singing it for copyright reasons. But like being born in the USA, how much does that does that contribute to your formation as a person? How much does just dumb luck and circumstance contribute to anything that you believe to be reasonably true? Right? Like, what does it mean to be someone who was born after the discovery of penicillin? What does it mean to be someone who was born after the Enlightenment, right? Or after women's suffrage or any number of things, right? Like there's and I'm not I'm not saying like, on therefore that's why you should think Christianity is right, because that's that's obviously very silly. Um but like at some point, if anyone knows something accurately, one of the things that we have to take into account is that like there's a whole mountain of weird conveniences underlying the fact of being able to know something accurately. Um and I would love to hear, this is kind of a challenge to you, but how would you tease out the way that um you are an inheritor of knowledge from your culture and community and context? Like how how if you had to if I was to say like how have how has your context shaped you to hold certain things that you do think are true and valuable? Like what what are some areas where like you did like not Christianity, put that to the side. What are some areas where like the circumstances of your birth did get you lucky and you're lucky to know that true thing?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:26

Oh man, um hang on.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:30

I know that I know that's a doozy. And I I've been asked it weird, but it's a big question, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:12:35

Yeah. Um well what immediately came to mind when you said take Christianity out of the picture is like um timeliness, like being on time. Like that's very much a value I feel like of the culture that I'm in, and maybe not a value that other cultures share. And it doesn't make my culture more right or wrong than another culture. Um, it's just like a different way of of living. Um also sorry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:08

No, that's good. That's good. I know let me not let me not do that yet. Let me see where you're going. I want to see where you're going.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:12

Okay, well, I was just gonna bring up another like example of like um I guess work, like the the quality or the the value of working hard. That's definitely another like I guess in the specific way we do it in the West in America, like that's definitely a value that I feel like is very much entwined with my culture. Like the the individualistic culture of like working hard to um you know get yourself ahead to get your to support your family, and then like don't stop for breath along the way. That's this is again another favorite talk of talking point of passion fruit, like hustle culture versus anti-hustle culture hustle culture. Um and maybe someone from my culture who does accept that, who does accept work as a way that provides a lot of purpose to life, would look at somebody else who doesn't share that same value, and maybe who values different things like experiencing life as opposed to working for experiences and see that person as as lazy. Um, but like you can't just take out a different uh an aspect of another culture that the entire culture values and say, Oh, that's just lazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:27

Like sure. So what I think is really interesting here because what you're bringing up are really deep and really thoughtful points, but it's interesting because I asked you what's something that you think is like true that you've inherited from your culture. And you went to things that you're you're just outright saying you think are relative in some sense.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:49

Because that's really difficult. How like this is what we were talking about at the beginning being aware of your own presuppositions, that's really hard to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:00

If you gave me some time with that question, I could totally spring on you spontaneously, right? So here's one. I I've got one for you. I I think I've landed on something that I think is objectively true. And I know how I know that people could argue against it, and I would not like those people for arguing against it. And I think that there is such a thing as inherent human dignity. I think that from Christianity? I get that from a lot of things. I do get it from Christianity, and I get it from modernity, and I get it from uh modern Western liberalism, and I get it from traditional Japanese culture, and I get it from uh conversations I have with friends from other religions. You know what I mean? So it strikes me as being the kind of thing I was like if if we're all say it, if everybody seems to be saying it, well, not everybody, because there are outliers, but like people seem to at least be drawn to this idea that there's such a thing as inherent human dignity. And I think it's right. I think there's a stronger case for that being true than a a case against it being true. And even though I think it's true, I still have to concede that I've attained that not through absolutely hyper-individualistic effort. Like I people taught me things, people told me things, um, I was influenced by others, people treated me a certain way because they held that belief that there's human dignity, right? And people have also ignored my human dignity and treated me badly, and that felt badly, and then I've ignored other people's human dignity and treated them badly, and then I felt badly for treating someone else badly. So, like, there's all of these things, right? All these reinforcing things that have to do with other people and other cultures and my own culture bracket S, right? So that's that's a thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:58

See, again, like but yeah, and that's a great that that definitely gives me more of an idea of what you were looking for. I still don't have an answer. Um because also going back to like the whole opposition topic that we brought up, like something exists more strongly when it has something opposed to it. Like it's difficult for me to think of things that I believe to be true and I don't see an opposing or at least a strong opposing view, I guess. But it's and it's more easy for me to think of contrasts in my life. Like maybe something I think now that I didn't used to think, or something that I was raised to believe in another culture has a different example. So I can, yeah, think I can only think in contrast right now, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:36

Yeah. No, that's that's totally fine.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:38

That's a good question, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:39

Something to ponder on. It it it's it it might be a good question for provocation, but I don't know that it's a good question for uh ease of answering. It's not it's not maybe the most conversational question. So I will think about that for next time as a bit of a doozy. But I I do think that there might be something worth um thinking about like what is convenience and then what is inheriting an ongoing conversation. You know what I mean? Like what's because being part of something bigger than yourself, like if it happens to be true, there's still so much circumstance surrounding that, right? Like can I I think for me, like the idea of like, oh, that's just convenient, I think that might be putting things too much in isolation, right? Like every everything is historically contingent in its own way.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:30

And it's kind of a childlike thing to do, you know. Um easy to do as a child, like growing like being born into Christianity and to think and to think it is convenient, unironically, to be born into Christianity, because you do see everything in that like stagnant view where you're not considering history and other perspectives, perspectives and other conversations. Um and just and growing up, I think I mean some people maybe don't go there, but I think most people when they grow up, growing up is realizing that there's a lot more here than I initially thought. And like that old time religion isn't necessarily that old time religion. I think we talked about that last time. I don't know, maybe maybe we didn't, or maybe we didn't, but something like that, yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, that song, that song really does come to mind very often though, because the lyrics, it's like it was good for the prophet Daniel, it's good enough for me. It's it's it's like, oh, it nothing has changed since then.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:29

Right, right. Am I doing the exact same thing as Daniel?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:33

But truly, like that's how whether intentionally or not, that's how I was raised to believe that like this Christianity, like Jesus, God is unmoving. And so thus, because we believe in God as Christians, our faith is unmoving, and and therefore it like we shouldn't question it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:56

Darcy, I hope I don't I hope you don't feel like I put you too heavily on the spot. Because I realize in retrospect, like that was some of those questions were like really, really heavy and pointed.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:06

No, I think it was a really it's it's not one of those easy questions that you can just like answer. Yeah. Like it's a it's a thought provo like obviously, I mean it's not an easy question, but like it's uh it is a conversation question, I think. It is a thought-provoking question. I just wasn't equipped for it per se. But that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:24

Okay, no, that's fair. I also had thought that I'd I don't know if I did actually send you guys the notes ahead of time or no, you did.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:31

Um and I don't think I saw that particular question all there. I wanna actually I like to journal before these episodes. I went a bit of a different direction, I think, with those questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:41

Okay, um fair.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:42

Nothing really different from yeah.

Universalized religious scope vs Localized spirituality

SPEAKER_02 1:20:44

Oh, that's fair. It it does change a bit too when it like conversations flow. So cool. All right, meta-analysis over. Okay, so I have a question for you, Adwa, or a bundle of questions, so to speak. So something that you had said in our spiritual podcast from when we were in Australia, you had said, Why do I, as an Acon person, need to be saved by Jesus? Very, very fair question. Like that's part of and probably can't get into the thick of like how you'd rationalize it theologically. But what if we asked a um comparable question or an analogous question? And it may not be right, it it may be wrong in its own sense. Okay. Would you have the same concerns about being and this I think I'm trying to relate to you on the biracial kids side of things? Do you have the same concerns about being saved, whatever that means, if that's even a relevant category, which I suspect it might not be, saved by the high deity of the Akon religion? If I'm remembering correctly, Nyame or Onyakopon? Is that Onyakopon?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:04

Is that you literally, when I saw that in the notes, I'm like, Max has done his research because yes, those are terms to refer to God within a con spirituality in God's life.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:17

So what would you would you have the same concerns? Like, well, obviously you wouldn't be like, why would I, as an Akan person, have to be saved by this God? But like, does that ring the same way as like, oh, this God has a specific path for me? How does that how does that statement, how does that thought resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:38

Do you know that feeling when you're just having all this surge of inspiration and there's so much you want to say, so I'm just gonna put that out there that I'm not gonna cover everything in my answer? Yeah, but okay, a thought that came to me as Darcy was giving some examples of what could look different depending on which context you're coming from. Part of me was thinking that are we taught to see our cultures or the groups that we consider we belong to as more different than they actually are in distinction to other groups? Because part of me was thinking about how hard work is something that I think every culture around the world has somewhat inherently. While it may look different depending on industrialization and all of that, I think we can all agree that there are certain values that I think go back to just our inherent human dignity. Like there are certain things we would just consider inherently human things to do, like the search for meaning. I think that's something that every culture shares. Um and then part of me, I'm I'm trust me, I'm coming to the point, but I just have to follow this route. Part of me is thinking, is it colonial thinking to think that if I'm putting myself in the shoes of an Akan person, why is it that I can't believe in Jesus? Like, why does my relationship to Jesus have to depend on colonialism and the fact that that was brought to Ghana? Like, why can't people independently of that, if the idea of why can't they believe in that? Why does it have to be dependent on if that's kind of making sense? So part of me is like, well, is it just decolonizing Christianity in recognizing that it's available to any culture, any person, no matter where they are, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they are giving up their own identity, sovereignty identity. Yes. So why does why do we sometimes see Christianity as just belonging to a certain group? Like maybe that is the colonial thinking that I have, maybe. Like that's just another form of thinking that I had because when I said as an Akan person, why do I have to be saved by Jesus? Well, why can't I be if I want to be? Like that was that was sort of my thinking, if that makes sense. Um and so I think going to the other part of your question about okay, does that mean that alternatively I would look at being saved by the Akan deity? I think honestly, the kind of part of it that I resonate with is this idea that everybody has a destiny within them. And that's something that Akan spirituality teaches. And how you understand what your I your destiny is, is I guess by looking at some of the overarching values that are within the culture, like resilience and uh contributing to a good outside of yourself, and I think that leaves service. Exactly. I can't get away from it, guys. I can't get away from it. Um but I think for me the idea that I have a destiny unique to me is something that I think also comes up with your belief if you believe in the Christian framework of thinking, because with each being uniquely created, which is the same a Khan following of thought. So there's unique, there's a unique purpose or purposes that you've been given. So so in a way, I would be subscribing to something that maybe ultimately has a similar end in the sense of if you're doing good acts within this lifetime, then that can only mean good things, or if you're being a good person, that can only mean good things, which would be the same thing within Christianity. But I think that there isn't the rigidity of accepting within a Khan thinking it's completely different to having to kind of accept something as exclusive to all others, it's just a part of who you are, and maybe you can even take on other religions and still be subscribing to the A Khan view of God and and identity and purpose, if that makes sense. So I don't think I would need to be saved by anything if I'm subscribing to the Akan viewpoint, and that's why I like it.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:38

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:39

It's just subscribing to your unique self.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:41

Yeah, if that makes sense, no, no, no, no, and and that's why I like I had to ask the question away, I did because salvation is kind of actually a specific concern, right? It's not not every culture, not every religion is looking to achieve that, or at very least, it could look like Because like salvation looked like a completely it's not even really a thing in Buddhism. Like that's that's more about nirvana, right? Which is not salvation, right? And so yeah, it's you know, and again, you're you're also correct, like a lot of the I mean, I can't oversimplify things, but people say animistic religions or polytheistic religions they tend to be more cool across the board, tend to be more cool with like, yeah, Ed, you can mix and match. Like, that's not a problem. Like, it it is the monotheistic religions that have that exclusivity thing going on, and there's reasons for that, which we absolutely do not have enough time to get into, but I would love to do sometime because I think it's actually has to do with the fact that the big monotheistic traditions come from polytheistic traditions, which is a whole thing to unpack, but we we don't have the time. We don't have the time, we don't have the time but another time, another time, but I I think that's a a very fair I like one I do think that taught me something about you, um, because you have alluded to the destiny thing before, and that being important to you, and so hearing you kind of revisit it is like that's like one of your anchor points of like no, that's really like one of the important things. It's like okay, and to the point that you had made about like may maybe these things are more harmonious than I was giving them credit for, like maybe they can be reconciled more easily. I see so many touch points. I know I keep dangling the carrot, like I see all these touch points. Um, I think there's an entire there's a whole theology you could make about how Christianity, I think, actually could kind of reconcile with that, and I promise we will also visit that sometime. This is this is me. If you're listening to this and you're getting frustrated with me saying all of these things that we could talk about and then we're not talking about it, leave us a comment and say, I hate Max so so so so much unless unless he comes and explains everything.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:08

Right. They could comment that or they could comment to vote which topic they want us to explore next.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:13

Or that. You don't have to say anything about hatred at all. You could just say, like, oh, I want to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:19

Otherwise, Max, I'm gonna have to make a video alluding to dentists.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:25

I'm so confused.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:26

In defense. I just I just in defense of the hate in defense of you and any hate comment.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:34

Oh I heard dentists. Yes, you I heard dentists as in like oh, is that what she said? That is what she said.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:42

I'm so confused.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:43

I'm so confused.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:45

Um, so alluding to the the the incident on TikTok. Um and the fellow who made racist remarks about Adjoa. Um, yes, in the TikTok comments. The when when Adjoa received racist TikTok comments, I made a response video to that individual. Something or other that would result in that individual's dentist becoming extraordinarily wealthy. That's that's what I'll say. Anyways, I'm a good Christian boy and I forgive everyone. I feel like I had a bunch more questions under because I obviously, Adwa, you you read what I wrote for you. But now having heard your answer, I don't know how relevant the rest of the questions I had written actually are. Because I feel like I understand where you're coming from even more now, and now I'm just like, hmm, okay, this I don't know if that's well, I'm gonna I'm gonna try it just in case and we'll see how it comes across. Maybe maybe this will be an act me actively learning what is and isn't relevant to like future further discussions, but okay. So there's this idea of like universality, and this kind of goes back to the idea of objectivity, right? Like, is this idea universally applicable? Does it apply to everybody? If I think to myself, like, what would it take for me to become Shinto? You know what I mean? Or like not be that's not really how it that's even thought about internally to the culture per se, but like, what would it take for me to seriously believe like in the Japanese pantheon or like the traditional Shinto creation story? Like, what would what would that take? Because for me, I have to recognize that I was formed by the modern West and Western science just as much as I was formed by Christianity. And so when I look at the Shinto creation story, man, that story about creating the whole world sure sounds an awful lot like just creating Japan. Um you know, it like that it's I it's it might be able to find that a nice story, but at the end of the day, I my horizons for what the world is are probably just much bigger than the people who originally created that mythology. And even the fact that I use the word mythology to refer to it, and I like it's a religion. Like, why would I why would I differentiate that from mythology? What what's going on here? So there's obviously that's part of my modern bias, not even just Christian bias, but that's part of my modernity bias, that like the the stories of cultures around the world, those are myths, and I can't believe them. But at the same time, I have to look at it and be like, well, a story of the creation of the whole world that is really just the creation of Japan, well, for my concerns, that's not good enough. Like that doesn't answer enough for me. And so the question becomes like, how do we account for that again going back to individualism and collective? What what is the dynamic between things that are universal and hyperlocal? Right? What what what are the dynamics at play between like what is universally true if that's a thing, if we can access it, versus like just a local concern or like a particular place's thing? Because I know we've also talked about like connection to the land and connection to a specific place. Like that's important in a lot of indigenous cultures, that's important in Okinawan culture. So, how do how do we measure out like discerning truth in a cultural tradition that maybe isn't trying to account for all of reality? Do we need that? Or is that overzealous? Like, maybe these are too again, that these might be too open-ended of questions, but I would love to at least hear your initial reaction to those questions. I know it's a lot.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:52

I have an initial reaction. I was waiting to see if Ad because I felt like it was directed more towards Harry.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:57

It was directed at Adjua, but like if I know if it's also very possible that you might need more time with it. I see head nodding. Yeah. Darcy, what do you guys?

SPEAKER_06 1:35:06

I just I mean, I just have the a very simple answer, which like Okay. I don't know, uh may not be exactly what you're looking for, but I like I just seeing these different perspectives, I just feel like it all is important because it kind of comes together as like a puzzle. Um like I think it being enriched by somebody else's point of view of how things came into being, of the nature of the universe, of humanity, whatever, the nature of God. Like I really do think it is very enriching to whatever perspective you currently have because it just adds to the puzzle that you're putting together. You have one puzzle piece and you're collecting different puzzle pieces as you go through life. Um, and I don't I think that can only really be a good thing. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:57

I can resonate with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:00

I love that idea of a puzzle and they all coming together, and I think my initial reaction is that in at least in my opinion, there are a lot of similarities with even animistic or pantheistic uh belief points and Christianity. Like you even said, Max, there was a point where monotheism actually drew from some of these other uh kinds of ways of understanding the world. And so I don't know, but some might say the the creation story in the Bible is a myth.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:41

Uh people I mean people do say that.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:45

They do say that, you're right, and I think that even with within the Bible, this is something that I think about. Like, I know that there is you know a way of reading into the signs and symbols and that correlating maybe to modern day kingdoms and all of that sort of stuff, but there's also you know, Jesus speaking in parables, and that's also something that a lot of indigenous oral cult or oral storytelling cultures employ is parables. So I think that I think that you're right though to say, Max, as well, you know, maybe people using hyper-local understandings of spirituality as a way for them to understand their connection to something that is perhaps the greater that governs everybody. But if you're living in a remote part of the world and you don't necessarily have contact with that with the news or with that, you're not going to be necessarily thinking of what that god you're believing in relates to someone elsewhere. So that's kind of my reaction to that.

To embrace mystery or not to embrace mystery?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:46

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. And I think obviously the question itself is it's so open-ended that like you could go a bajillion different directions with trying to answer it. But it is one of those things where I do feel like that kind of question is part of taking a next step when you're saying, like, okay, I have this particular set of doubts, or I have these particular sets of objections or questions. Okay, so then how do I situate those questions in a way that's actually pointing me forward towards more answers or more serious considerations or more factors that I could like bring to bear that might actually eventually drive me towards an answer? That's kind of I think that might actually kind of be my goal with this entire thing. I know I've seen us as a group kind of circle around doubt and questioning and any number of other things. And I'm like, yeah, but like when when does it push us? When when do those questions push us forward towards like, okay, let me let me try to grab something, let me find something. You know what I mean? And I think if anything, like that's kind of at least what I'm hoping to try to do with this conversation, or hope that I've done with this conversation, is say, like, okay, where where are some places where we can like put some definitive footholds down, or like say, like, okay, well, we've addressed that, or I know this might work, or uh, these are all now I'm getting more and more abstract as I say this, but you're you look like you're about to say something, Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:15

I'm just thinking, but Max, what if we don't want definitive points to like what if you want to live in the mystery? Yes, and my mind is even, and obviously, Max, and this we might have to again add a pin to the many pins that we have, because I'd love to get Max's take on that scripture in the Bible that I've always kind of found actually when I think about that or meditate on it, it kind of gives me a release, and it's the verse scripture that says, like, referring to God, like your ways are not our ways. And so why do we if if God is there's an element to God that is inherently beyond our human understanding, why do we have to get two definitive answers? Is it just enough that we uh we can ponder on that we're not gonna know everything? And maybe the things like human dignity are things that we can grip on to. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that and that's kind of the I get that's one of those things. Like, if there if there is a great mystery that is ultimately and fundamentally mystery, like on the one hand, you might approach it saying, like, well, then can I really know anything about it? And then do I just leave it all mysterious? Or like, is there also a motivating drive to say, like, let me grab onto whatever I can? And then while knowing that there is this whole category of can't, right? Where and like I have to learn how to be at peace with the I can't, but like again, the human dignity thing, like a I for me, a big part of what grounds that is my assumption that like human existence is ultimately accountable to its creator. And so if I take that off the table, it becomes a a significantly weaker position, maybe not indefensible, but I would have to come up with a very different defense for it, right? And so, in in so much as I do want to like, I think a lot of people want their spirituality to inform life, to inform their interaction with reality. And so if we do want it to do that, then we we can't just only be floating in an ether of questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:31

Like if that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:42

And I know nobody can like if you're just listening to the podcast, you cannot see, but Adrian's face at that at that point was also a priceless. Oh yeah, I and I wasn't expecting that to be what you it took a second for me to realize.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:09

That might be a like top five passion fruit moment right there. I think that might be one of the funniest things. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:17

That's good. If I can take over briefly from the while time to collect itself, but maybe I do it. Um I this whole point that we are you know landing on as we're drawing to this podcast to a close of like wanting to like not float around in the sea of questions, or as I sometimes describe it as like brain soup, like nothing to hold on to. Like as I, you know, as I've moved out of structured religion into a space of more deconstruction, I'm very well aware that it's really easy to just kind of get lost in that and just go down this endless rabbit hole of like hearing out other perspectives. For me, that looks like listening to podcasts like rolling around after the other. And um, I was actually talking to you, Max, earlier about this, and I was describing that as it feels like the way I'm going about my exploration right now and and being introduced to these ideas, whether it's a podcast or a video, um, or even just a conversation with somebody, it feels like I'm just collecting books from my shelf that I'm not really opening. Like they're all functioning as like introductions to different rabbit holes I could go down. And I don't really like being there. Um that's where I am now, I'd say, for the majority, for for the for yeah, primarily that's where I am. But like I know that I don't want to stay there forever because I do really think it is important to have something to hold on to um and to like yeah, like a like a structure, a framework, I guess, for living life and providing purpose to your life. Um, and I and so I know that I want like this reconstruction of some sort of faith or spiritual practice to be a part of my deconstruction journey. And so I was thinking, how could I like what does that look like? Whereas maybe before, faith, belief might have looked like a box, you know, being in a box, not really being a bit closed-minded, that might have been where I was before. And then, like, as I matured and questions started being asked, being asked, it kind of just like came out of the box. And now that's like this formless blob. But I want it to have a bit more structure than that. And I really feel like the idea of a garden is what I want to envision my faith being because a garden allows growth to continuously happen. A garden is very expansive and it allows changes to be made and new things to grow and things to be cut away, but it's still this beautiful, like structured thing. Um, maybe the the podcast that I listen to and the the ideas I'm introduced to are like the seeds get that get planted. But as I continue to engage with those thoughts and have questions and have conversations with people about them and read about them, like things are growing, things are being cultivated within that garden. Um, so I find that that is really helpful for me moving forward to know this is what I want it to look like for myself. And it still lets me feel like I'm kind of living in the mystery because there's always room for something else. Yeah. But I am also having something a little bit more stable to hold on to.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:33

I I love the garden metaphor, and it's one of the things that like I think when people have been overexposed to like dogmatism, then it makes being definitive seem like it's like, oh no, I don't want to go back there. But like the thing that's cool about like having something solid that you can hold on to, that's nice in and of itself. But the crazy thing about the great mystery is that it doesn't get less mysterious just because you have something that you can hold. Like it the it the mystery part is so big, you're not gonna run out of mystery. Um I have so much stuff that I definitively believe theologically, and I don't think it's really ever reduced the mystery of God for me. Like, um, and kind of to kind of the the question or the objection that you raised, Adjula, which I think is very legitimate. You're like, what if I want to be able to live with the mystery? I think you're experiencing mystery as the thing that's giving you permission to hold on to two things that groups have told you are contradictory. But I think it would be really cool to see you not talk about it in terms of like, but I just think that, or like, well, one of the things I've really no, what if it wasn't about like affirming an abstract? What if it's like I am walking in my destiny and God gave me that destiny, and I know that it's a continuation of the path that my ancestors walked, and the fact that they walked that path and gave that to me was also God's doing. And there's no and I don't have there's no contradiction there, and I don't think that reduces the mystery at least as far as I see. Um that's that's kind that's kind of what I'm thinking of it. It's it's not like dogmatism or rigidity, but like being able to like like okay, it's time to like rubber meets the road. You know what I mean? That that's what I mean by like finding something solid.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:31

I love that. I love that. And we're gonna have to we're gonna have to definitely have an offline conversation about this.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:39

I know, we're overdue for one of those anyways. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:42

That's beautiful, Darcy. Oh thank you. The garden, absolutely gorgeous, and I think just the way that you have even gone about this journey is very admirable, and I would encourage everyone to listen back to previous episodes and videos where Darcy has spoken about her journey because I think it's one that I've drawn inspiration from, and I'm really excited for this blooming and for this garden to to continuously grow. And I think you're already planting the seeds.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:19

Darcy, are you doing the garden era?

SPEAKER_00 1:48:21

I really am.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:22

I have plants outside my house right now. Actually, they're mostly dead because it's about to be winter. Yeah, but yeah, apparently I am.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:33

You were about to say something though.

CRISIS!!

SPEAKER_06 1:48:35

Um, she just said, I think you are currently planting seeds. I think I just need to start watering those seeds a bit. I think I need to stop because at a certain point, like it's all it's all curiosity and exploration that I'm doing, but also at a certain point it's really just entertainment. And like, you know, I mean, entertainment is really easy because you want to distract yourself from the hard work you do in your everyday life and whatever. But I really do want to take this this journey seriously and um be more intentional about following certain things to their ends instead of just constantly being introduced to new thoughts or just hanging around in like the the lobby of a specific uh thought. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:18

So that's also a good analogy.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:20

Yeah.

unknown 1:49:20

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:23

Yes. Ooh, what happened to Adjua's screen?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:27

Yeah, what we just Ajua just plunged into darkness.

Wrapping up the conversation

SPEAKER_06 1:49:30

Yeah. Oh man. Yeah, I I thought we were having some issues with connection within the minute or so before she just went blank.

unknown 1:49:41

No.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:42

For those who are listening, Ajua just Ajua, like we said, she's in Ghana. Her power just completely went out. Um, and we have lost her. So I think we're gonna wrap up because I don't know if she's gonna be able to get back in. To our recording session. And we're also afraid she might have lost her recording.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:08

So yeah, who knows if who knows if all of that will survive? Dang it, man. Well, we learned a lot about each other today. And in the event that this uh recording does work out, uh it's irrelevant at this point because you've already been listening to this episode. So thank you for tuning in. Stick around for the next one. Thank you for everyone who's followed us on our social media, anyone who reshares our stuff. Um, and just for the fact that you're here on this journey with us. It is really, really a privilege to share this growing together thing that we're doing with all of you. And uh we look forward to seeing you in the next one. Uh again, leave us a comment, like, subscribe, everything, all of it, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:55

Thanks for watching and listening. Thank you for tuning in for today's episode. We look forward to you joining us for the next one. Until then, let's keep growing together.