The Passionfroot Podcast
Global 20-30 year olds exploring life, purpose, and faith outside the box!
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The Passionfroot Podcast
11: Can FAITH and knowledge-seeking coexist?
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Darcie posed an interesting question in our team group chat: was the first sin committed by Adam and Eve related to wanting knowledge? And if so, is knowledge itself dangerous?
The question got us talking, and over the next few weeks it came up a handful of times, until we knew that it had to turn into a full conversation.
The dynamic is interesting, with Darcie approaching this as a “lay” person and myself coming at it with formal theological training. We examine both the Eden story and the Tower of Babel story as paradigms for how to approach reading the biblical text with both a critical and faithful lens.
The deeper question, of course, is about defining what “faith” and “knowledge” are. A spiritual question, and an epistemological question. These aren’t fully resolved in this episode, but we hope it’s a meaningful starting point or refining reference for you in the process of getting to wherever you land on this issue.
-Max
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Links/Resources mentioned in the episode:
This video was not mentioned in this episode, however, I would highly recommend the episode “Embodied Knowing: Polanyi, Scripture, and the End of the Mind-Body Divide” by The Biblical Mind Podcast (by Dr. Dru Johnson) for another layer of really interesting discussion on the nature of knowledge.
https://youtu.be/_i1qjm1mqQA?si=LHgM--hu8SNUNKUu
“What is the Bible” by Rob Bell - https://www.amazon.ca/What-Bible-Ancient-Transform-Everything/dp/0062194267
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#faithandknowledge #passionfroot #thepassionfrootpodcast
Intro and more Intro
SPEAKER_03What is faith made of? Because there's all these, you know, these scholars, the the confessional scholars and the critical scholars alike, they're they're continuously seeking new information, new ways of looking at things, listen listening to their peers presenting these new perspectives. And it seems to me doing all without the danger of really losing their faith because their faith isn't necessarily based on what they know. Talking with you like in this conversation and before this conversation, I've I've realized maybe I need to ask the question what is faith really made up of? What are these scholars who keep open minds and are always like eager for more information? How what is their basis of faith and what keeps them grounded there while they are out on all these intellectual journeys?
SPEAKER_04Welcome to Passion Fruit, where we navigate life, purpose, and faith outside the box. I'm Max.
SPEAKER_01I'm Evan. I'm Mel. I'm Darcy, and I'm Adjua. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_04Welcome to Passion Fruit, where we uh oh, what do we do? We do welcome.
SPEAKER_03We welcome to the the welcome to the podcast collage version.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. No, I'm yeah.
SPEAKER_03Where we deconstruct things and put them back together in nonsensical ways.
SPEAKER_04I'm deconstructing my knowledge of English. Um Welcome to Passion Fruit, where we pursue no, where we explore life, purpose, and faith outside the box. Is that the first one?
SPEAKER_03But honestly, that's in the intro, the pre-recorded intro, so you're right.
SPEAKER_04Welcome to Passion Fruit, where we uh oh, what do we do? We do, no, I'm gonna include this and I'm gonna chop it up to make it look like I'm having an aneurysm for like a second.
SPEAKER_03I don't think you need to chop it up to make sure, make it look like you're having an aneurysm.
The post-intro Intro
SPEAKER_04Dang it. I'm gonna keep you saying that in there. That's great. Uh yeah, well, welcome back to the show. Uh, I'm really excited about this episode today, mostly because we have been leading up to it for a long time. Uh kind of offstage. Darcy and I and the other team members have been on and off chit-chatting on this topic. Darcy, I think you and I have talked about it the most, and with us being the ones who can make it for this episode, it kind of worked out. But we have a really interesting topic uh that kind of was sparked by uh just a private conversation in our group chat where Darcy was asking questions about um knowledge itself and its relationship to faith, um, and kind of asked questions in ways that either never before or not in a long time had I thought about asking this particular version of this question, and it challenged me to kind of dig back down to be like, oh yeah, these are some kind of like foundational issues that have really, really interesting kind of spin-off rabbit trails that we could go down with them. So I've found the preparation for this really enriching. Um, and for those of you who are listening who might be thinking, wow, another max-led episode where the topic is religion and philosophy and spirituality. Uh, this guy's really putting himself in a box. First of all, yes. And secondly, that's it. There's no secondly. Uh I'm I'm a stereotype and deal with it.
SPEAKER_03And thirdly, we depend on you for that. So it's actually very appreciated.
SPEAKER_04See, I I've been trying to inhabit my archetype a little bit more. You guys, you guys listening to this don't necessarily know this, but uh internally to the team, we all have like character archetypes of who we are within the team and what we bring to the table creatively. It's all very elaborate, and much of that is spearheaded by the ingenious leadership of Darcy.
SPEAKER_03On that note, ingenious is a big word. Thank you for that.
SPEAKER_04Listen, you deserve it. I think you you do a lot to keep this ship running and uh not only keep it running, but I think help us all do the best we can with this platform. So I I think credit where credit is due, you know. I appreciate that. That being said, um, I would love it if you could give us a bit of background first and foremost. Um well no, uh you could give us like your version of what the question sounds like, and then for maybe those who aren't as familiar with us, if they happen to be tuning into the podcast for the first time, give some of your background on you know your world-famous deconstruction world tour and and all that that entails.
Darcie’s Background: A Tale of Deconstruction
SPEAKER_03Okay, sounds good. Um, yeah, so at its core, like the most basic phrasing of the question that I've come to is do faith and knowledge mix? And honestly, I so Max and I were chatting just before we started recording and I was sharing with him. I don't necessarily mean that I think it's possible they don't mix mix. Like by me asking the question, I guess I'm more so asking, how do they mix? Um, because in my process of deconstruction, my process of questioning, uh, a lot of the like voices I've been surrounded by, which have mostly been in forms of like podcasts, podcasters, YouTube videos, things like that, um, somehow I've I've just come to this point where I've noticed some patterns and um I've heard people's stories and I've just gotten to where it feels like knowledge kind of challenges faith or threatens faith in a way, in many cases. And so Max being the I'm getting ahead of you and telling your backstory for you, but Max being the theology major, philosophy major that he is, um, I knew he was the perfect person to ask this question to. Like, what does that look like? What does a an intellectual or an academic um approach to faith look like? And how, and I guess even like what is faith made up of, or what should it be made up of that like new information isn't going to challenge it? Um, I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit, so I'll just go into my backstory and kind of set up the scene here. So, like we said, um, you know, I've been in a process of deconstruction, and I've I've started to feel weird about that word, probably just because it's a it's a huge buzzword and has been for years, and I recognize that things kind of lose their meaning over time. Um, I also recognize that like even though I describe myself as going through deconstruction, I'm still in many ways very much Christian. I mean, I'm holding on to these things that I was raised with because they give me a lot of hope, and like that's how I want to see the world, even though I'm very uncertain about it and I'm um entertaining ideas such as maybe God doesn't exist for like the first time in my entire lifetime. Um, so yeah, deconstruction or religious questioning, intense religious questioning, however you want to describe it. But this started in I keep reading the year. I want to say 2022. Um I literally have like a starting point that I can point to because the first thing that actually kicked off me first being willing to like entertain questioning of my um religious faith was a YouTube video. And it was two YouTubers that kind of deconstructed or at least told their deconstruction story very pop very publicly. Um and one YouTuber in particular, I I always go back and forth on whether I should say names. I don't think there's any reason why I shouldn't say names.
SPEAKER_04So these aren't these aren't private citizens. Yeah, not at all. They're private citizens, but like yeah, they're not hidden, mysterious people.
SPEAKER_03So I'll just go ahead and say Rhett and Link. And I've shared their names before anyway. I don't even know why I started feeling like I uh should be vague about that. Um but yeah.
SPEAKER_04Parasocial relationship.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, seriously. Um it was specifically so Rhett and Link were evangelical Christians, and um, I don't even really know the timeline here because I found their videos even two or three years after they had made them. So I'm not sure when it became public knowledge that they had deconstructed, but they were just addressing and sharing the story of their deconstructions in these videos. And I specifically watched, I watched both, but I specifically related a lot more to Rhett's and I just felt like I saw myself and my Christian journey in his timeline up to a certain point, and then his timeline progressed from there and ended with him completely deconstructing. And so, even though I had known, of course, there's people out there that are genuine Christians and then completely deconstruct, like there's so many people in the world, of course that happens. Um, I think it was more so just being parasocially face to face with somebody who that has happened to, and really hearing their story and just seeing they got from point A to point B. And like, how does that happen to someone who I do choose to believe was a genuine Christian, um, genuinely love God? Like, how does how does God even let that happen to somebody, let them just completely move away from the faith? Um, and so that was I think one of the things that really just gave me a, I guess, a dose of reality and made me start realizing I need to start intentionally asking some questions. And I think the other thing that that video that Rhett made did for me was it planted this little fear because he described he described his faith deconstruction as pulling a thread until it unwound his faith.
SPEAKER_04Um into a sweater bikini.
SPEAKER_03He did say that. Yes.
SPEAKER_04I just I watched the video, Darcy sent it to me, so I it's all fresh in my mind. And for the record, in the funny moments.
SPEAKER_03I rewatched the video actually for this only the second time. So the second time since I first watched it, I rewatched it again this week. Um so it's also a little fresh in my mind as well.
SPEAKER_04I w I'm curious what that was like for you. Well because that video occupies a big part in your life now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean I did expect it to be maybe well, I guess I didn't really have any expectations. You would think maybe that it would be a little bit more dramatic for me. It wasn't really. Um I just think it was it was nice to get it more fresh in my brain and also compare where I was then to where I am now. Um which that's another topic entirely, but I've said this before and I'll say it again. I do want to be more intentional with my seeking into in answering the qu these questions that I have. Because for me, it's been more of a getting comfortable with stepping outside the bubble, getting comfortable with listening to people that are challenging Christianity or critiquing it. And I've basically stayed at that point, and I haven't really gone much further, even though I definitely have a desire to. So I guess watching the video again actually was just a little reminder like I would like to go further than I have in this whole process.
SPEAKER_04Um granted, everything you just described also like a lot of that does actually take a long time to process all of those thoughts. I mean, you look at the the timeline of Rhett's deconstruction is like 10 years. I think he said maybe 10 years or maybe a decade worth of thinking, you know. So you know, you're you're pacing along all right.
Max’s Background: A Tale of a Nerd
SPEAKER_03Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement. Um he was unwinding this thread. And for his particular story, one big part of that, um, I think the thing that really started it was looking at evolution versus creation and like young earth theory. Um he read a bunch of books on that. He looked into DNA um and like all the science around that area, and um went into just more and more places, like looking at church doctrine and tradition. And yeah, he said, you know, it just it kept unwinding. And the thing he really didn't want to touch was Jesus, because that's the core of the entire faith. But eventually it did get there. And as I said, today he is he does not consider himself a Christian anymore. Um, and so I think that did plant a fear in my mind and this thought, maybe this equation that seeking knowledge could equal deconstructing faith or like destroying death of faith, I guess. Um so tracking it to that point, yeah. I think that's maybe where this question even just initially came from. Um so I will I'll pause there and I'll let us get to your backstory unless you have any follow-up questions from that's good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's good. I mean, my backstory, I don't want it, I don't want to say it's underwhelming per se, but like, you know, raised in the church and by and large still very much a believer. Um and I don't know why I said by and large, like yeah, no, I I I believe in art, like that's pretty unambiguous. Yeah. So it's it's the kind of thing where um, you know, I guess people get a little surprised sometimes at like the intersections of my life where it's like, okay, you know, by all accounts, religious guy, but also you know, metal singer, um philosophy student, kind of an oddball of sorts, um, you know, in in my own unique personal ways. Um yeah, I I I have personal quirks of various sorts, but none of them have impeded my Christianity per se. Um I in my undergraduate years I double-majored in philosophy and this amalgamated Frankenstein of a department called Biblical Studies and Theology, which are very often different disciplines, but we I I I liked having that together, honestly. I think it gave me some breadth and depth both. Um, and then I did seminary as well. So I've got my MDiv, uh Masters of Divinity, for those not familiar with the jargon, industry jargon for your ears on the podcast. Um so yeah, that's me. And um, I've always made Oh sorry, uh you weren't done.
SPEAKER_03I should let you go.
SPEAKER_04I'm blabbing. I was just gonna say, like, uh I forget what I was gonna say. You go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, I was just gonna push you actually further, and maybe you're already going there. Um, because you've said before on the podcast that you've never, at least like in terms that we would on like popular terms, you've never deconstructed, right? So could you maybe because but I while you've never, again, quote, deconstructed, I think it's fair to stay to say you've still maintained a practice of like questioning and learning and digging deeper into your faith and even I would as I would assume, you know, expanding your faith as you learn more things. So, you know, what do you mean by never deconstructed?
SPEAKER_04You're right. That that is particularly relevant. Um Thank you for the reminder there. I you know, deconstruction as a popularly used term for talking about having a crisis of faith or deconverting or any number of other things people might have called it in the past. Uh one, it it just wasn't a buzzword when I was going through probably the the most transitional time in my life in my twenties and stuff. So it's not that I'd ever it's not that I've never questioned my religious beliefs. It's just that God, God self has never really failed like uh that's never been difficult for me necessarily. Um my theology has changed a lot over the years, like in all kinds of different directions. Um, and I've definitely had very strong doubts about certain doctrines or certain teachings or the ways that things were framed for me at church. And with that in mind, I've struggled with my faith a lot. Um, like I've had tons and tons and tons of questions. Um it's just that they've never led me away from theism per se. Um, I think the other thing for me too is like I'm from Toronto originally, born and raised in Toronto, uh went to university in Toronto, and I think being from one of the more multicultural cities in the world and growing up in an environment where it was just like normal for me to be among people who believed very different things for me, different religions, non-religious. Um, I did not like I was very much a public school kid. And so, like I I the idea that there are people who don't believe in God was just by the time I was old enough to like really be shaping my worldview and like taking my own religious practices seriously, the fact that there were people who don't believe in God was just this innocuous, obviously true, like, oh yeah, you know, whatever, yeah, there's atheists. I've got friends who's atheists, yeah. Okay, cool, whatever. Yeah. And so like being around it, and people would like make fun of each other for all kinds of reasons. People make fun of me for being a Christian, people make fun of atheists, like it every uh kids are mean, right? So it was just like, I don't know. I to me, it was just like normal to have people kind of try to poke holes in your beliefs and be like, okay, well, whatever. Bugger off now. Yeah, you know, and so like it's yeah, I I think for me, being in an environment where there's like a variety of viewpoints felt normal. And so I I've never experienced crisis because someone presented me with something that was different. It's just like, oh, time to take on some new information and figure out what I'm gonna do with it, you know.
SPEAKER_03So it's interesting because I um I have never and I don't really would never like really critique the way my parents raised me. I always even like whenever I'm telling this story of deconstructing or whatever, I I often will have a disclaimer as like my parents raised me very well. I don't, you know, I'm not saying they should have done anything differently, but I do question like you know, I I think I had, I did get to the point I did, partially because I was in a bubble for my entire life um through college. And I think, you know, I just I just wonder I don't know, should I have no, I don't even think I should have done anything differently. I think my path is going just fine, but also I guess maybe even maybe even just looking to the future at when I have kids, you know, questioning how do I want to raise them to make sure they're not just purely in a bubble all the way up to adulthood to make sure they're like seriously engaging serious questions about their faith and like maybe not asking big questions like does God exist for the first time after college, you know? Um I think the fact that you your observation that you lived in a place that was very diverse, yeah, I think that's a good one because I think being just seeing all those and going to public school as well, like living and growing up with all those different perspectives and getting used to them as opposed to going through the Christian system that I did all the way through college and then getting out of that bubble, like it definitely leads to much different views of life and like experiences with growing in your faith and growing as a Christian.
SPEAKER_04It's it maybe I don't want to get sidetracked with the school thing per se, but what like when I think about my high school education, like I re I read Voltaire, Voltaire, famous critic of all things religious and church, and uh I read Voltaire in French class. I was in a French program, like I did French immersion all the way through high school. My French teacher was very much a Christian, and he was the one introducing us to Voltaire and like asking us to and and Jean-Paul Sartre and like all of these existentialist thinkers, and he was the one just being like, Yeah, think about this, right? Like it's important.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um and I know that in my experience in high school, I had friends who were in, you know, the Canadian equivalent of the same school system that you were in, Darcy. And I remember looking at them as a teenager. I remember looking at them and thinking, like, because of where you guys are going to school, like when we become adults, none of you guys are gonna believe in God anymore. Like, I I you're gonna hate your religion and you're gonna leave it. And then I was right, yeah. Um, like, not all of them, but a lot of them are just like, yeah, I don't want to have anything to do with the church anymore, or I don't believe in God anymore. And I'm like, yeah, I I saw that coming from when I was a public school kid and you were all private Christian school kids, and exactly what I thought would happen happened.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um and I don't I don't say that to bash religious education systems, but I do think it in my estimation, I would tell parents to be a little bit more um not more, a little less naive about what can be done by an institution to make someone be Christian. Uh, I think that. Some people have misconceptions about what can actually be done there and it I think it backfires. Yeah. That's my opinion. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I mean that's my experience as well. So, like you said, it just it doesn't have to be across the board for everybody, but there's obviously some validity to that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It would be an interesting topic to get into.
Faith vs. Knowledge: Why this question?
SPEAKER_04That's that's a whole other thing. I I would imagine that uh, you know, just because of the circles we run in, that that could ruffle some people's feathers. But you know, that's we'll stick with we'll stick with ruffling these particular feathers that we've chosen to ruffle today. Sounds great. Um, so I'd say I we've got our list of questions here that we're referencing, and I'd say let's get right into it. And um you're kind of in the driver's steel, you're you're you're essentially going to be steering me, I think, is how this is gonna work, Darcy. Um, so I'd like to know, and our listeners, I'm sure, would like to know, how did you come to the question about the possibility of faith and knowledge coexisting? Um and you even threw me a curveball in the notes here. So I'm curious.
SPEAKER_03I think I know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_04Run with it. Run with it. I'm so I'm so intrigued.
Faith vs. Knowledge: Was Eve’s Sin wanting to know?
SPEAKER_03All right. So yeah, I think there are many places where this has kind of crept into my mind. As I mentioned, you know, Rhett's story of following the thread, learning more and more and more, and then unraveling faith. Like that's of course one place that I got this idea. Um, and also just like in general, I guess looking at other people's deconstruction stories, looking at other people's processes of like challenging, I don't know, biblical history or science, um creation story, things like that. Um I think it's it's been easy for me to get to that point, just seeing some patterns happening there. Um one particular point I will start at is literally going back to the beginning, the beginning of the Bible, that is. Um and this is something I bring up because I've heard I've heard Christian say this before, speaking about the original sin. So Eve's original sin. Um my question here is is it would it be a valid point to say that maybe Eve's original sin was one of knowing? Because so the story goes, you know, she was tempted by the serpent, the serpent said, eat this vague fruit thing, and you will be like God, you will know um good and evil.
SPEAKER_04Both good and evil, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And she took it. And and I think um it is maybe more obvious that it is a sin of like obedience, or at least uh breaking trust with God, breaking that relationship trust, um, because God told her not to do that. But also, I've heard it described before also as like a sin of wanting to know more than you're made to know, or or at least a story that that gives us the moral lesson of maybe there are some things we shouldn't know and we should just trust God. Um just have faith and like rely on our religious upbringing instead of striving to learn more. Um and do you want me to say the the side note or like the the the new thing that I added, or should we save that?
SPEAKER_04Maybe. Yeah, save it, but I do want to come back to it because I'm curious how it fits in there. Okay. Um yeah, it it might be too much of a a tangent, but I I'm curious. But we'll still we'll stay in Genesis three for now. Okay, but then we'll we'll come back to the other thing.
SPEAKER_02Sounds good.
SPEAKER_04Um but yeah, so you the question being like, okay, tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the conversation with the serpent includes like, oh yeah, you'll be like God, knowing both good and evil. And then Eve looks at the fruit, sees that it's edible, sees it's good to be eaten, and oh, it'll make me wise. That sounds like a good thing, and she does it. Um, and so I it what I think is interesting there, and I've heard people comment on this somewhat recently, is that her motive doesn't even necessarily seem to be awful by any stretch. It's like she's curious about what it might even mean to know something more, and I think that that impulse in and of itself isn't bad. And if you look at most of the other parts of the Bible that deal with knowledge, like if you look in the wisdom tradition in the book of Proverbs, other places similar to it, um I I know there's one proverb that famously is like the fear of the Lord is a beginning of wisdom. Um, but I'm pretty sure there's another one that is kind of funny in how it's worded. It's like uh the beginning of wisdom is this, get wisdom. Um, and it's it's one I don't know, it's one of those quirky little ways of saying things, but it it's very positive about knowledge and understanding and and learning stuff. So it would be, I think, very strange for this same tradition to just be like, but and I and obviously different parts of the Bible speak very differently about various things, um, but uh i it it just seems like okay, if that's what this passage is teaching, that's not enough of a reason to take it and run with it and be like, oh, then that's this the message for our lives overall. And I think in this particular case, um the sin aspect, and especially if you think about sin in the sense of like transgression, or to use slightly less um archaic, because transgression can sound a little archaic, right? But like violation or like overstepping a boundary. You know what I mean? Like trespass, transgress. Like you're you're staying, that's literally, I mean, we use the language of boundaries now, like that's probably the more familiar Gen Z language, like, oh yeah, you crossed a boundary, right? That's transgression, that's trespass. Um, and I think in that regard, that's more of crossing the boundary of like, here's where the lines of trust are supposed to operate in this relationship. You know, if you think of it as like a parental child or like teacher student relationship of like, okay, I'm in the position of privileged knowledge and I'm trying to guide you on the right path, and I'm telling you this isn't safe, don't do it, or this isn't wise, don't do it. Then the the violation there is ultimately a violation about trust and not necessarily the motive behind why you decided to step outside of trust, right? Like uh there is fundamentally nothing wrong with wanting to know how the stovetop works or being really intrigued about mommy's cooking, right? But the whole don't stick your hand there probably still applies, right? Right. And at some point you will learn to cook, um, just maybe not yet, right? And unfortunately, you know, as far as the story goes, we don't have the version of the story where Adam and Eve chose the other way, and so we don't know the hypothetical, like, well, what would have happened if they had just like proverbially speaking passed the test? Yeah, that's actually a really good question.
SPEAKER_03But they have grown into it more slowly.
SPEAKER_04Right. Like, there's there's all these other questions about like, you know, there's nothing wrong with learning about human sexuality, but it certainly isn't the first thing you teach kids as soon as they can process English sentences, right? So, and we we understand that intuitively in other areas, like sometimes it's not the appropriate time for you to learn about that intense thing just yet. But I also understand that for a lot of people the the parental analogy with God can also be very fraught and a bit triggering. So, you know, lean on that analogy as much as each of you feel comfortable doing. Um, but I I think that's at least one way of putting it, and at least as far as answering the sin question, I think it's more of a a violation of relational trust rather than there being something wrong with wanting to know stuff.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. So to summarize, you're saying um, first of all, you started with, you know, even though this story is there, there's also a lot of many other places in the Bible that encourage you to get wisdom, to learn more. Yes. Um to learn. Yeah. Yeah. And you would say, like, um, yeah, like there is obviously some validity to maybe not maybe not learning everything all at once or you know, taking it slowly, more slowly. Um, I guess, I guess another like modern or not modern, but just more applicable um example of that would be I think there is definitely some validity to like young Christians, for example, maybe not challenging themselves or like their faith to like the nth degree immediately when they convert to Christianity, or or at least children who are Christians, like going back to the way my parents raised me, I think like sheltering me in the way they did, maybe when I was younger, like that is totally understandable. Putting me, you know, in Sabbath school, which is Sunday school equivalent for those of you who uh know what Sunday school is and don't know what Sabbath school is. Um like that's understandable when you're younger and you can't handle as much much information. I guess I don't when I say young Christians too, I guess I don't know how I feel about like saying, Oh, you're an adult who just became a Christian, be careful what you listen to. I don't know how I feel about that, but I can at least see that for like literally young Christians, literal children, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, like the stove analogy, like you can't do this yet, but you will be able to, so I'm just gonna protect you from that for now. Um and then you have something else you said at the end that I forgot. Oh, and then you're also saying, just like clarifying, yeah, you feel like the original sin it was more one of breaking relational trust than like you know, seeking knowledge you shouldn't seek.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think knowledge is certainly a factor here, but knowledge is her motive. Knowledge is her point of intrigue, and it I don't think wanting to know is the act of violation itself.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Um, like that's uh the act of violation was saying, like, okay, well, I'm gonna go ahead and do it. Like that's that's the actual sin is the okay, I reach out my hand and take rather than um rather than it being something cognitive. You know?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um yeah, I think that that summarizes it sufficiently.
SPEAKER_03I think the other thing that I was gonna comment on um when you brought up like the the Proverbs verse, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I f I hearing that I could imagine other Christians saying um, like when I guess Proverbs and these these wisdom books, these wisdom passages encourage you to get more wisdom, they would be specifically talking about like wisdom in God. Religious wisdom, exactly. So, like, what would you say to that to that point?
SPEAKER_04We're gonna throw some jargon into the episode jargon, jargon, jargon, jargon. So um there is a it's not a theol, like it's not a systematic theology, but there is a line of thinking that is called fideism. Um fide or fideis, depending on usage in Latin grammar. And of course, why say anything normally when you could say it in Latin? Right. Uh but fide means faith in Latin. Um and fideism is a perspective that I maybe it exists in other religions, but I can only speak to how it manifests itself in Christianity. Fideism is the belief that essentially any range of things like knowledge is unnecessary, or even like non-religious knowledge is actively harmful and forbidden, or in completely incompatible with faith, or that uh faith that tries to base it base itself on knowledge or reason is illegitimate. In other words, fideism is a perspective on faith that says like that there can be no relationship between faith and knowledge, and there shouldn't be. And like you have to it it is very much like a yeah, let's do blind faith type of thing. No, I don't think anyone from that perspective would necessarily use that language and say, like, oh, it's blind faith per se, because that's you know, that has a negative connotation. But that that's the perspective that's saying, like, no, avoid knowledge, like just go, like your act of devotion to God is just kind of doing tunnel vision, putting the blinders on, and just moving straight ahead. Don't don't consider anything else, um, and don't and don't build your faith on rationality. So, like, for example, a pure fideist um would not approve of like apologetics books, or at least not those that take an evidentialist approach, like, oh no, here's all this evidence of whatever, you know what I mean? Like, they would be like, No, don't do that. That's you're you're already playing in the wrong ballpark, right? And that we I want to name that because that is a specific perspective, that is a specific um theology, if you will. Um, and I think most serious theologians, at least in principle, recognize it as deeply flawed. There may be some pastors who would go, like, oh no, that's actually exactly what I recommend. But I I can't imagine any serious Christian philosophers or Bible scholars who would look at that and be like, Oh, yeah, totally, be a fiddist. Like, nah. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I hope that is I hope it's clear how that's an answer to your question, at least.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sort of. In a sense, um, I can unpack it more if you're not. I felt like it was more like just like naming who these people are that would say all knowledge should just be religious instead of like saying an answer to those people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay, you're right, you're right, you're right. Let me let me unpack it more a bit then. First of all, most of the people in Christian history since the Bible who have engaged in like writing theology or like translating the Bible or anything like that, they don't operate that way. Um they have not operated that way. I would say if you read the Bible, most of the people in the Bible don't operate that way. Like stuff will happen and then they reason amongst themselves about it, or they argue about it, or they apply things in different ways, right or wrong, whatever. Like you can very much see that people are thinking about things. Um and also like this perspective, this fideist perspective, kind of bypasses the fact that like even during the Bible times, there's no Bible because it's they're in it, there it's happening to them. Yeah, so it's not like it's not like this corpus of knowledge is there for them to access. Like, whatever they're learning about God, they're learning from like the way that God is showing up in their lived experiences. And so like it's not, it's not like they can like go and like, oh, consult the word of God. Like, you might not have access to that. You might not even be literate, right? You might be living in a time when there's no living profit and things aren't written down, or if they are written down, like you don't have access to them, right? So most of their knowledge, even about like how they interact with spiritual things, is gonna be experiential stuff.
SPEAKER_03Um which you then have to like, if it's just experiential, then you have to use your brain and like rationalize and use use your thinking power to figure out okay, what does that mean in in terms of how to live?
SPEAKER_04Right. How do how do I live? How do I relate that to my spirituality? Um, and noteworthily, uh, nobody alive today who has a fiddleist perspective only has religious knowledge. Um, they all I mean, if they're saying it on the internet, then they know how to turn their phone on, they know how to type, they know all kinds of things that they themselves would consider legitimate real knowledge that they didn't get from religion or Christian philosophy or scripture. So, like, okay, you your definition of like what counts as real knowledge certainly can't just be like whatever comes from the word of God. And it it certainly seems that you at least used non-biblical knowledge to know where on your shelf you kept your Bible, so it's at least somewhat involved. Like like like what you know what I mean? Like, at some like there is no hard, clean line dividing where normal knowing ends and where religious knowing begins. And it's not to say that there's no difference between the two, but like they're gonna cross-pollinate, they're gonna intermingle with each other, and you kind of have to bring really to have an integrated spirituality, you have to bring your normal life knowing and your spiritual knowledge into conversation with each other, otherwise, they're just sectioned off from each other completely. Yeah. Um, and I I frankly, I don't know how someone with that perspective even begins talking about their beliefs. Um, because how how do you make it touch real life?
Compartmentalized Spirituality vs. Holistic Integration
SPEAKER_03Right. You know, yeah. Um I was definitely like you know, raised with the idea that um, you know, God needs to be the center of your life, right? And so for a while for a long time, I saw that as oh great, like this means literally everything I do has to be spiritual themed, religious themed. Like I can't watch a secular movie, I can't read a secular book, shouldn't have secular conversations, or like, you know, all the Christian oil in your car engine.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and then I start it started, you know, as I matured and started learning more what that actually does mean. Um, it was very freeing to realize, no, like God is God is the creator of life itself. God is the creator of like just about everything you interact with. And having God at the center of your life doesn't mean you're just um condensing yourself and God to this like very narrow box of religious things. It's understanding and viewing the world through this framework of God exists, God is in everything. Um like even just using my brain for math, you could say, is God is involved in that because He created my brain to be able to do these complex equations and such.
SPEAKER_04Um and why does math even work in this universe? Like why do numbers function consistently like that, right? Like Yeah. It's it's one of those interesting things where like um it it might seem counterintuitive to people, but like, you know, having Christian swimming class is in a weird way compartmentalized spirituality because at least at the like conceptual level, you're saying like none of these things are relevant to spiritual truth or life or to God unless I arbitrarily attach religion to it.
SPEAKER_03Unless I play Christian music while we swim.
SPEAKER_04Right, exactly. And so what you're saying is actually God is not in everything, like you're actually taking God away first so that you can put him back.
SPEAKER_01That's a good point.
SPEAKER_04Um, which is a very kind of redundant and I think backwards endeavor. Definitely. People people think it's intuitive to be like, oh yeah, it's like the Christian thing. And that's why I've got a Christian lamp on my Christian desk. And it's like, okay, stop.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Not not to like just make us go on an unending tangent, but I mean, obviously, this is a conversation in the art world as well. And we've had this conversation before too. This is a huge conversation in the art world, just looking at Christian art and how empty, not all of it, certainly not all of it, but a good portion of it um can feel. Like it if a lot of it can just feel ignorant or at least avoidant of like deeper issues, deeper heartfelt human issues, um, because it's all trying to focus on God and not only focus on God, but also be family friendly, right? Um and whereas like art, I mean, you again, you could see all art through a lens of like where is God in this. Um you could even not intentionally do that, but just realizing that art is commenting on the human condition and art is commenting on our relationships with the with each other. It's all so meaningful. And I think that's all life itself is already spiritual. Yes, it is. It is, it's all very, it's all sacred. It's all um, it all teaches us something about God and existence, whether or not it has the Jesus stickers left on it.
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah, I love that with Jesus sticker. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I said this already, but just um I think this the simple answer that I came that I have come to when I'm wrestling this question of um are we meant to seek more knowledge? Could it hurt our faith? Could it hurt my faith? I'm brought to the point of I have a brain in my head that is capable of a lot of things, and one thing it wants to do is ask questions, and one thing it is very good at doing is being curious. And if we're gonna say God made us and God made our brains and God equipped us with all these things, like I don't think you can ignore that fact that our brains are naturally curious and naturally want to learn more.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that's exactly it.
What’s going on with the Tower of Babel?
SPEAKER_03I can go on to that next little. Bullet point I put under the so just while we're on the topic of like biblical stories where we started talking about Eve's original sin and then went to other places. Um the other this yeah, this was really last minute. Like I was just I just thought of this as I was summarizing our notes, and it may not be relevant, but I was just thinking of the story of the Tower of Babel or Babel, however you want to say that. How would you pronounce that? Babel? Babel?
SPEAKER_04Um conventionally a lot of English speakers say Babel. I've been trying to say Babel just because it's it's closer to Babble Lawn, which is eventually what it becomes, right?
SPEAKER_03So I didn't realize that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's like it's it's kind of like backstory for Babylon as like the big bad of the Hebrew Bible story. That's cool. One of the big bad empires, right?
SPEAKER_03Okay, so um very quickly to summarize the story for those who may not be familiar with it. Um this is after the flood, right? Yeah. Um people on earth all speak the same language, or at least in this one place, all speak the same language. Yeah, people, okay, people on earth all speak the same language. They all all get together um and start building this tower and are like, wow, we're so amazing. Look how high we can build this tower. We're going to build it higher. And um, the story goes that God intervened, um, he saw it getting taller, and he was like, This can't happen. I'm going to intervene. And he confused their language, and that's how we got different languages. That's like the the again, the Sabbath school version of the story.
SPEAKER_05Sure.
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah. But looking at that story, I think you could see it as one that does relate to the topic of like human knowledge and gaining more knowledge. Um I don't think honestly, I don't know if I ever really fully understood the point of that story, but I seem to remember it being described to me as humans were on the one hand getting maybe too full of themselves or like too too powerful in a way that could threaten God, which never made sense to me, but I remember it being described that way to me. Um and I think that also relates to knowledge, just like being able to build a tower that high high. Their languages were confused because then it makes it harder to work with each other and like share knowledge with each other. Um yeah, it was described to me as like they were getting too close to God, whether physically through like the height of the tower, or like f uh figuratively, I guess, through through human knowledge. Yeah. So ambition, ambition perhaps.
SPEAKER_06Something.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'd really be so that just came out of left field, but I'd really be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_04I think I think where I see a similarity between like this story and the Genesis 3 story with the garden is I think you could kind of see a similar narrative thrust in terms of like these humans are aspiring to something that for some reason that's a little hard to put your finger on, apparently God objects to what they are aspiring to, to their ambitions, and then they get punished for it. Like that seems to be the structure uh of what you're seeing here. I when I look at the Tower of Babel, I don't necessarily see knowledge really being in focus, but ambition definitely uh sits there. Um and and as much as you can think of what's going on in Genesis 3 in terms of like, oh yeah, I want to be like God. Oh, I I that's an ambition of sorts, I guess you could kind of frame it that way. Um but I do agree with you that like the the message in the Tower of the Babel story is a little inscrutable at times. Like it it it's it doesn't seem very transparent on the surface. What are we supposed to take away from this? And I think you know, critical scholars, I think, in many ways kind of rightly point out that the surface level reading of the story seems to be, yeah, they th they like somehow this posed a legitimate concerning threat to God, so he stopped it for for some reason, right? Um and I've heard people read it that way. I don't think that that is a particularly faithful reading of the story, but I understand why people read it that way. Um and I I'll I'll prop propose some other readings that I think are fruitful. Uh some would call them speculative, I don't think so necessarily, but they they especially when you're used to just reading the story and being like, what the heck is going on here? Like, I don't it they may not seem intuitive, but I'm fine with that. Um again, this does seem like a bit of an aside, but maybe this will be helpful. Yeah. And maybe if anything, this is a demonstration of like what you can do when you choose to approach the text with knowledge. Yeah, yeah. Approach the text with with like uh interpretive skill. So um I got this reading Rob Bell, of all people. Um who's he famous for? Because I recognize the name, but I forget he's famous for being Rob Bell. Um but he was an evangelical pastor. He had this really popular video series called Numa, where I mean I'm he was very cutting edge in his use of media and presentation style uh in the late 2000s, early 2010s. Like he was a very, very popular preacher. Um very cutting edge. A lot of people bit his style to start mega churches and stuff like that. So, you know, he he was that guy. And he famously, I guess his his most notorious moment, um, probably most controversial moment, was writing a book called Love Wins that was a reevaluation of the doctrine of hell.
SPEAKER_01That's the one I recognize. Not that I've read it.
SPEAKER_04That would be where you probably recognize his name from, yeah. And that kind of really began making his relationship with evangelical Christianity very rocky, and he kind of drifted out in. I don't know that he ever was like a full-on deconstructed, but just continuously got more liberal-ish, maybe sort of kind of something like that. Vague, vague in uh where his theological commitments ended up, as far as I recall. But uh, he wrote a really interesting book called What is the Bible, which is where I first encountered this very interesting reading of the Tower of Fable Story. So yeah, basically um this reading of the Tower of Fable story, hello Rocky, um, this reading of the Tower of Fable story starts kind of at at the beginning framing, where it's like, okay, they're starting to make the plans for how they're gonna build this tower. And he points out one of the details that the text does give us is they're like, let's bake bricks and build a tower. And he's like, look at that in the context of a technological innovation, in a context where building was done with wood or stone that had to be cut, and think about what it means to be able to build something with bricks that are made to be uniform, and what that means about the difference of the kinds of things that you can build and the size of things that you can build, right? And the immediate structural physical advantage that that would represent. And what if you look at the Tower of Babel story from the point of view of an empire that has a name that's very, very simple, similar to a later empire that's gonna show up again in the biblical story, and they suddenly have the technology to build something way bigger than anyone has ever seen before? What does that mean to the towns around them? What does that mean to the people who aren't part of their civilization? What does that mean to the people being like, do they have archers up there? Wow, that's really scary. Yeah right? Like the just the and and the fact that in the story they say, like, let's make a name for ourselves so that we will not be scattered around the earth. And they've got, you know, the characters in the story have the flood in the backgrounds of their minds. Like, let's build up our own power and an escape route, and like just think about how much that projects power, right? Um, and so it's the beginning of empire building, it's the beginning of of building towering human ambitions, setting yourself self or your group up as godlike over other people. So I would say it in essence, like the way that Rob Bell is reading, or whoever he got this from, the way that they're reading the Babel story is like this is the beginning of human empire building, projecting power out over other people, um, and so God puts a stop to that. I I'd also read uh some commentary by a theologian named Peter Peter J. Lightheart. And uh I'm not sure if I'm remembering this exactly correctly, but he's looking at it like I've always read God's action here as punishment, which it seems intuitive to read it that way, but he asked the interpretive question, and again, this is the skill, right? Asking interpretive questions. What is the result of God striking them with confusion? What is the result? Diversity, cultural linguistic diversity, which could be thought of as a gift, actually. True. Um, so what they are what they are given is um cultural diversification, which slows down but absolutely does not completely stop the ability and the process of empire building. But like they they then do it in these enclaves. Granted, for the original audience, this probably also served more so as a narration of like where do all these ethnic groups groups that we live amongst come from, right? It's a narration of the the world that they themselves live in. Like, oh, those people over there and those people over there. Like, that's why this story is also surrounded by genealogies and stuff, right? But I think in terms of the moral lesson of the story, it's like when people get a hold of new technology, they try to make a name for themselves and they build really big, maybe to the detriment of others or the terror of others. To um, sometimes like things that seem like a punishment might actually be a blessing in disguise, such as the gift of linguistic diversity, which is actually a good thing. Um, and then Lightheart then says if you follow the trajectory of that through the Bible, um again, not a move that some people from a more critical lens would like, but I I'm approaching this from a religious lens. If you follow through the Bible to the book of Acts, you get the day of Pentecost and the gift of speaking in tongues, where you have what Lightheart calls an anti-Babel, where suddenly it's people from all these different cultures being able to understand each other. And even if you don't take that route, like the vision of the gospel and the kingdom of God in the New Testament is like now all nations, all tribes, all peoples, every tongue, they all come together, and this is one multi-ethnic kingdom of God, everyone brought together despite language differences, right? Right, and so like that is also somehow part of God's end game. Right? So, like short-term, long-term uh seems like a punishment in the moment. What's the big picture? Right. Like that might be a part of the dynamic of how we read that story, at least in retrospect from like a Christian perspective. Like, obviously, there's lots of other ways to read the story, but the point being, there's ways to read the story where I don't think it's like fully arbitrary or just a petty response, and that there might actually be real moral implications for like do you really have to build that gigantic tower for yourself to feel like you're okay and make a name for yourself and so that you won't be scared? Is that where you put your security? Do you really need that gigantic rocket ship to launch yourself into space? Jeff, right?
SPEAKER_03Like, yeah, I mean, like the there's the comparison, I think, when you compared, I really like the comparison of Babel and Pentecost, and like Babel was all about you uniting in like your similarities and conquering over people that are different than you, versus the Pentecost was coming together, being all able to speak the same language in order to like share good news and then also to go out and like share it with like other people.
SPEAKER_04Or rather, being able to speak different languages.
SPEAKER_03Right, yes, yes, yes, understanding each other different languages, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, communicating across language barriers. Yeah. Um but yeah, yeah, I th I think that's uh I'm glad that that resonated with you.
SPEAKER_03I like it. And I think um, yeah, that that reading the Bible in these different ways like really excites me um as I hope slowly continue my journey of reconstructing my faith and learning more things. Like that's that's really cool stuff to to learn. Different ways of it.
SPEAKER_04Maybe to tie the Babel thing back to the knowledge thing, kind of in light of what you just said, um engaging but the Bible as a sacred text is about interpretation, interpretation and application, and like not confusing those steps, but also knowing how to move from one of those steps to the next. Um, and one of the things that really struck me in the the video from Rhett was that like he brought on board all this information and then didn't change his interpretation of what Christianity even was.
SPEAKER_07That's true.
SPEAKER_04You know what I mean? Like he ended up rejecting Christianity on the grounds of Christianity means the version of fundamentalism I grew up with. And because I can't believe in that, nothing else can count as Christianity, or nothing else is worth considering as counting as a legitimate or maybe even superior articulation of Christianity. That's fair.
SPEAKER_02At least in the way that he told the story, it does come across that way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04It comes across that way, at least, yes. I'm I'm and he read a lot of things, but like for example, to kind of speak to and this sorry to the listeners who haven't watched that video, though nothing's stopping you. Um but he he alludes to the fact that he was reading a lot of Christian apologetics material that was mostly defending what I think anyone informed on this would recognize as like essentially a fundamentalist position. And then he read an apologist who was atheistic evolutionist, and it kind of rocked his world that that was even a possibility, and that seems like it was actually a really big catalyst for him being like, well, what else could you think? Um, and he doesn't seem to consider the possibility that another theological framework could also be a legitimate or compelling or worth exploring theological framework, right? It it seems to always come back down to either I'm a literalist or I'm not a Christian at all. Um and and I think that's interesting because that's an interpretive choice, right? Right. Um, and so interpret that all of this just being a way of saying like interpretation and knowing that you're engaged in the act of interpretation is really important.
Christianity in the pew vs. Christianity in Academia
SPEAKER_03So yeah, so that brings that is a good segue to the next question I want to ask because it actually has to do with that like versions of Christianity. Um I too came from and again still kind of am intertwined in like the more evangelical, I guess conservative evangelical world. Like my background was you know, believing in the fact that earth is very young compared to like the evolution evolutionist view of how old the earth is, um, and believing in creation. Um believing that all Old Testament stories are actual history, like the Bible is a history book as well as being a book that you can learn from. And so I think something something else that I've started just observing, recognizing also, again, my observations are very limited, but just the people that I've been listening to and watching, it started to feel like there's some sort of divide between academia and Christianity, but more accurately, academia and like conservative Christianity. Um, those examples that I just mentioned, like young earth believers, literal biblical texts, like Bible, the Bible is inerrant, even like that kind of belief. Um, it started really feeling like there was a divide there. And um, just to that point of it being a divide between conservative Christianity and academia. I have certainly listened to podcast episodes of Christians um that are very like intellectual people in academia that and they usually without fail turn out to be like more progressive Christians, Christians that don't really line up with the things I grew up believing in, um, Christians that do believe that, you know, maybe some or all of the Old Testament Testament stories are myth, or at least are like open to that idea. And me growing up in my version of Christianity, like believing that would have, or like even entertaining that thought would have been like, whoa, you're questioning the Bible. You're questioning God. That was that would have been a really big thing. Um, and so um that's yeah, that's just another thing that's kind of come to lead me to the overall question of does faith and knowledge exist? Because or does faith and knowledge coexist? Because faith, faith to me growing up, was this more um conservative lens, and like I'm not sure how I can now rectify like faith with what do we know about science and history? And um yeah, I'm I'm starting to lose my train of thought here, but I think I've said enough at least for you to be able to answer the thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Christians in academia, and like you know, is there some kind of divide where it's like, okay, there's the Christian people over here who actually believe in God, and then there's people who do credible research and and studies and scholars, biblical scholarship and history and stuff over here, and like there's just no overlap. Like, what's going on in these schools?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and and you know, again, not just not to say that Christians that do very and I also am worried that I'm like gonna, which I probably will offend some people with this question. I know there are very smart Christians across the board. This is just the the thought that I have come to temporarily rest on. Um and you can enlighten me and everybody else listening.
SPEAKER_04Well, I I mean part of the problem with academia is that it ends up being an ivory tower, like no matter which way you slice it. And it is is very easy to find yourself wondering, like, hey, what's going on over there? I have no way of finding out, right? Like everything's paywalled. Um such and such professor is probably most likely on his way to give a paper at some conference or marks some term papers or give an exam. Like, they're not talking to us, right? Like, that's that's one of the big things. It's like, sure, all of these academic institutions exist, but like, when do you hear from Professor Whoever and whatnot about anything?
SPEAKER_05Uh-huh. Right.
SPEAKER_04If you're not in school, so it's easy, it's easy to wonder. Exactly. If you're not in school, it's really easy to wonder, like, oh, what do you all got going on over there? Um, and so like to kind of to answer the question, like, there are, yeah, of course, like Christian scholars all over the place in all kinds of disciplines related to the Bible and theology. I think on average industry-wide, you could probably say that there's more um critical or mainstream or secular scholars of the Bible than there are what you'd call confessional scholars of the Bible, just by like sheer numbers per se. Um But I think like that doesn't necessarily mean anything about like so, for example, Bible scholarship is a specific discipline that is a different discipline than theology. Right? Theology is the study of God, and certainly you can use the Bible for that, but you can also use like speculative philosophy for that, and you can use church tradition for that. Whereas a Bible scholar could be an atheist, could be a Muslim, could be an agnostic, could be Jewish, and just be like, oh yeah, this is just interesting to me as a historical document. I'd like to study how these manuscripts were preserved through history, or when did we discover this particular set of manuscripts, or are there differences between what the text says in this version and what this other scroll that we found over here says in the same section? Right. And and that's anyone could do that. Whereas, like you're going to have people who are Christians going into more religious disciplines, like going into ministry, right? Going into pastoring, going into theology itself rather than just staying in like biblical studies per se. So there's already reason skewing it, like, yeah, the religious people who are religious about the Bible are going to end up doing religious things with the Bible because yeah. And and then you know what I mean? Um, which is fine. And then also like scholarship is also a product of like the post-Enlightenment world and and you know the various factors of history. I agree with you that we don't have time to do my whole excursus on the history of critical scholarship, which would be interesting, but like, yeah, we don't have we're already an hour in, like, not through all our questions yet. But like, uh, you know, there's historical factors there too. But I I went to school, I went to two different religious schools. I had lots of amazing professors, lots of really great people who were, in their own right, Bible scholars, or some of those were theologians, and they specially In different things, and they all have their own personal ways of navigating the knowledge that they have and how that relates to their personal beliefs. Um, I mean, it's it's this interesting dynamic where you know, some of the people who are really popular on social media right now, like Dan McClellan, you know, everyone like anyone who is having a conversation about religion online at this point has probably heard of him. And he is very much like definitively a critical scholar. He's within that tradition that has no problem questioning miracles or like like must by default adopt full-on methodological naturalism. Right? And and Dan McClellan has I really butchered his name there. Sorry, not that he's watching this, but Dan McClellan certainly will articulate like the the conclusions of critical scholarship without hesitation, and he identifies himself as a practicing Mormon. Oh, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01I did not know that.
SPEAKER_04He's he's yeah, Dan McClellan is a Mormon. Wow, and he like you know, people have criticized him from without and within his own faith tradition, saying, like, well, you're a cafeteria Mormon, right? You're like, I'll take a little bit of this, but none of that, and a bit of this, but I don't want that. Um, to which he has responded, he's like, Cool, everybody is a cafeteria, whatever they are. Like, all of us are doing that, whether we admit it to ourselves or not, is that we're engaging with our religious traditions in the we literally can't do anything but do it in the way that we can make sense of.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04Right? Yeah. So, like, yeah, you you engage it as you, sorry to say. Um, and so you know, there's a whole bunch of people who I follow on TikTok, some of them who are involved with uh a platform like the Bible for Normal People, some of them are Methodists, albeit like I think what an evangelical would describe as like a very, very liberal uh iteration of Methodism. But like, you know, one of my favorites is a guy named Aaron Higashi, and I don't I I'm certain that I don't have the exact same religious or theological convictions as him. Like I'm very I'm very sure of that. Um but he believes in God, like he believes that God exists, exists, you know what I mean? But as he's explained it, his reasons have more to do with um classical theology, right? Which is much more philosophical in its nature, and that's a huge part of church history that maybe you don't necessarily get in like Bible-only churches, so to speak, but it's a huge part of Christian history and a huge part of Christian theology that is worth knowing about um and is interesting. And people, even people in Bible-only churches are influenced by it, whether or not they realize it or not, or they are influenced by classical theology. It's very hard not to be. Um, so it's one of those things where people across the board are doing all kinds of very different things. Um, I'm actually I'm gonna send you a podcast episode to listen to. It's very short. Um, it's from a uh show called the Biblical Mind Podcast. It's by a scholar named uh Drew something. I forget his last name now. I I feel so dupe. I've been listening to his show for years. What's wrong with me? But he went to SBL, the Society of Biblical Literature.
SPEAKER_03So I actually you um you added the link on the document that we were brainstorming on. I clicked on it and listened to it this morning.
SPEAKER_04How did you find that? Wasn't it entertaining?
SPEAKER_03It was entertaining, yes. I loved that. I love that he asked each person he interviewed, what is the most annoying thing biblical scholars do at this convention?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, like what's the worst, what's the worst scholarly behavior you've seen at the Society of Biblical Literature convention, which is a hilarious question to ask, but I think that is actually indicative of like, oh, right, these are people. You know, like these are people, they come from different backgrounds. Some of them are religious, some of them are not religious. They're going to be presenting on all kinds of topics from all across the board because they come from all across the board. Um, and you know, there are oh, the reason the reason I was bringing all of this up is that there are confessional scholars who maybe they're smart, and I might think some of them are terrible people because of what they believe, right? Um, and there are confessional scholars who I really, really, really admire um who do systematic theology and they do try to make everything in the Bible fit together in a neat theological, like digestible theological package, like you do, and that's the point of systematic theology, is to systematize it. Um Michael Heiser, another one of my favorites, who I don't think by any means would be considered a critical scholar. He's very much a confessional scholar. He believes in God, he believes in a literal resurrection of Jesus. Um and yet he is very he engages critical scholarship, like he keeps critical scholarship in mind in his work and even engages it and even agrees with some of its conclusions. You know what I mean? And and then there's people who are very like the Aaron Higashis and Dan McClellans of the world who are very much critical scholars who also believe in God, and then there's the Bart Ehrmans who are critical scholars and they don't believe in God. You know what I mean? Like it's it's it's all kinds of people are people, and everyone is running this race at a different speed and in different directions. And that's you know, there is no singular um definitive, like, oh, if you learn this or if you study this, then you'll think this. Like no. Yeah, yeah, you will go where you go.
What is Faith?
SPEAKER_03Um so I think this is actually a great place to start somewhat wrapping up and maybe getting to even like probably the most core question that I've realized is the core question of this of this podcast. Um, just to set that up real quick though. Um I think the reason the big reason why a lot of like this question, does knowledge and faith coexist, popped into my mind and why like seeing things like, oh, people that are like speaking about religion in these very academic terms may not always believe the things that I was presented as very core to the faith growing up. Like that was kind of unsettling for me. Um, just seeing questioning, like, is it possible to have these, to still hold on to these conservative beliefs that I grew up with and to really um really seek truth on like this, this was this was unsettled settling these things. Like, again, I've using my old tired, tired examples of like taking the Bible literally and believing in young earth. And there's plenty of other examples that I can't think of right now, but those things were presented to me as like core things for your for you to have faith in, right? For your faith to be based on. And so then, yeah, that leads me to the core question of what is faith made of? Because there's all these, you know, these scholars, the the confessional scholars and the critical scholars alike, they're they're continuously seeking new information, new ways of looking at things, listen, listening to their peers presenting these new perspectives. And um, it seems to me doing all without the danger of really losing their faith because their faith isn't necessarily based on what they know, or at least, or or what they don't know. So um, this is this is something else I talked about with you in our initial brainstorming session, where I kind of asked the question, um, or or I guess described faith as being made up of what you know and what you don't know. And what I mean by that is what you know is like the factual basis you have for faith, whether it's like biblical history or or history lining up with biblical history, um science lining up with uh intelligent design, like these things can, these things you know can support your faith. And then what you don't know being here's these mysteries that I can't even begin to explain, faith can bridge that gap for me. And I think that's how I've been maybe seeing faith for a lot of my life, but I don't think that that view or that definition of faith can really stand up. And I don't uh talking with you like in this conversation and before this conversation, I've I've realized maybe I need to ask the question, what is faith really made up of? What are these these scholars who keep open minds and are always like eager for more information? How what is their basis of faith and what keeps them grounded there while they are out on all these intellectual journeys?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, wow, what is faith made up? Like that is a that's a doozy of a question. And this is this is where it gets harder, right? Um if you wanted to talk about what faith means in the Bible, pistis in Greek, um, someone like N.T. Wright would talk about that as being like, it's not so much like mental assent to a proposition. Like there here's here's a proposition and I agree with it mentally. You know what I mean? Like that's not belief in the sense of like the kind of faith that the gospels or Paul are talking about. That's like faithfulness, that's loyalty, that's um my commitment to someone, even in in the same way, my like commitment and goodwill and like willingness to cooperate, like in the same way that we I think we have this vestigial understanding of the meaning of the word faith when we talk about being faithful to your spouse, or you know, I I thought we could have had a good conversation, but I I've I saw he wasn't engaging in good faith, right? Where it's that interpersonal relational loyalty and goodwill where it's like I'm with you in this and I'm sticking with you, and like we're working towards something together. It's a that faith, that faithfulness kind of faith that I think is what the New Testament certainly is getting at a lot of the time with faith. Um, that's more of a relational quality. And I think over time we've taken that relational quality because that is a part of spirituality, is like I have this loyalty to God, and God has a loyalty to me, and we embrace that relationship and and progress towards a goal, the kingdom, in that loyalty. We've then taken the word faith and used it as a name for that, the the fact that that relationship is there, right? This is my faith. And we use it as a synonym for religion or spiritual practice, right? And so what we've done is we've taken something that kind of describes the nature of my relationship with God and it has over time come to mean the fact of whether or not you have a relationship with God, kind of as an extension of the meaning of that word. So I think that's why partly that ambiguity is there. Um actually, what you were saying earlier in in how you asked your question made me think of something else. Remember earlier when we were talking about how um trying to do Christian swimming class kind of implies that God wasn't in swimming pool with you in the first place, and you had to like you had to take him out to put him back, type of thing. There there is a there is a sense in which this is doing the same kind of compartmentalization.
SPEAKER_03I feel like I'm seeing where you're getting to where you're compartment you're compartmentalizing by saying um faith can only be based on these factors as opposed to faith being the core of your something.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Or or in the sense of like faith is filling in gaps.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04Like your belief in God is filling in gaps where science is not. And so like it's this assumption that, like, well, if a naturalistic explanation for something exists here, then that means God is not there. And it's it's it's a view of the world where actually God is not acting in nature, God is not present in nature, God is super natural, he's above nature and separate from it, and that is a kind of dualism that says, like, okay, God and religious reality, by definition, is already separate from everything else that exists. So if there's an explanation in the world that explains something, then that can't be God, right? Whereas I think a lot of people would just say, like, oh, okay, like, oh, this is evaporation. Okay, well, God is in that in some way, right? And that is the mystery. Like, how is God in that? That I don't know. Like, yeah, that's not, but because I know that water evaporates, does that mean that like it's wrong of me to think of God sending the rain? No, but I'll have to account for it in some kind of indirect sense. But God being involved in the world indirectly, like that doesn't make me think that he's not involved, right? Or God using the mechanisms of the natural world doesn't make me think, well, then then he can't be there because there's already the mechanism, right?
SPEAKER_02Like it doesn't make sense when you when you put it that way.
SPEAKER_04It's like when you put it that way, he made it to function this way. Right. So it's like it does it just the fact that there's a natural way that things happen doesn't immediately bracket out that God has to not be in it. Now, also being able to explain it that way doesn't mean that God has to exist either. So, like just for the sake of being fair, but you see how that is is in its own way a type of compartmentalization, right? A category compartmentalization. Um and as far as it goes in like defining faith, like there's a similar compartmentalization that happens when it's like, oh, um, faith is religious belief. Well, faith is something that we use in human life all the time. Again, arguing in good faith, being faithful to the people that trust you, right? Being a team player, all of those are examples of that like loyalty side of faith. Um, I think you can probably distinguish between that version of faith, like the relational faith, and then belief, which might be more propositional. Um, you know, what does it mean to believe something? I mean, we're getting into the realm of epistemology. You know, it's even harder than what does it mean to believe something? What it does it, what does it mean to know something? What's knowledge?
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Famously uh got up-ended in 1963 when Edmund Gettier wrote a paper that uh basically overturned the Western world's assumption of the definition of knowledge, which since Plato, from like Plato till like 1963, the definition of knowledge that people were working with was justified true belief. Okay, you have a belief about the world, um, it's true, like your belief corresponds with reality, and the way that you got to that truth is justified. And they're like, oh, that that counts as knowledge. And without getting into it, Edmund Gettier wrote a paper where he proposed some thought experiment examples where, like very plausible examples, where it's like, looks like all three of those conditions are met in these examples, and yet knowledge still seems uh doubtful in these cases. I'm not gonna give you the cases you can look up if you're listening to this, look up Gettier problems. There's a rabbit hole for everybody. There's a rabbit hole for you. But yeah, defining knowledge itself is actually kind of difficult epistemologically. Um, or at least there's there's some quirky uh problems at hand. Um, but yeah, like the like defining what knowledge even is is difficult. So defining what belief is. I mean, I think we all have a colloquial intuitive understanding of what belief is, um, and then trying to relate all of these things to each other, my goodness. Um difficult. But uh namely, I don't think you can even try to begin doing this without believing that there is such a thing as knowledge, you know what I mean? Right, or that you can attain knowledge and that knowledge is haveable. Um, right, like so at some point, either like I mean, oddly enough, the only way to hold the belief that like knowledge and faith can't go together and then to continue to ask the question is to not actually believe that they can't go together. And the only way to believe that they can't go together is to give up on the question. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, because like okay, if if there is an answer to that, you're not gonna know it. Right? True.
SPEAKER_05Just step away from it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I maybe that got a little too abstract. Like that, I'm I'm not even sure I'm entirely satisfied with that as a wrap-up per se.
SPEAKER_03It's a tough question. It's it's a popular question because it is so tough. I mean, I've seen countless Christian literature pieces, sermons like asking this question. Um, I think honestly, this is this is the answer and also the cop-out answer in a sense, where faith is based on your personal experience. Like you kind of have to experience it, I feel like, to know what it is. Yeah. And I think as I'm as I'm intentionally questioning my my faith, my religion, um, I think I'm actually growing very slowly to experience faith actively in a way that I never really experienced it before. I certainly thought I had faith before. I grew up to think I had faith. Like I was I was taught to believe that I had faith and I had to hold on to that faith. Um but I think I am really yeah, just getting like glimpses of what it truly means. And like something that I've kind of come to is just the fact that similar to you saying, like just the fact that you're trying to attain, you said knowledge, like shows that you believe you can know something or like knowledge exists, or you said something, something like that. Um, just the fact that I am wrestling with these existential questions and trying to come to answers kind of shows that it's like faith in a way that's either God or some ultimate purpose to everything does exist, just by the fact that I'm like still choosing to hold on to it and seek that out. It still feels very flimsy. I mean, I I could see why somebody in my position could easily just say, like, but that still doesn't say that God exists. Like, who's what is that to keep me believing in God? Why can't why shouldn't I just go out here and say, no, God doesn't exist, and I'm gonna devote my energy to other things. Um yeah, it still feels very flimsy. It's just for me, it's just like a hope because this is the way I was this is the way I grew up. My worldview was that God does exist and there is purpose, and that's what I want to believe. So I think that's why I'm now biased to want to continue on that search. Um yeah, so it feels flimsy.
SPEAKER_04But I mean, flimsy, I don't know if that that's a totally fair um description of it though, because look, you're yearning for God.
SPEAKER_03Um a little bit, maybe sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, not even what I was intending, but see, there you go. Um, and you you are pursuing the question quite faithfully. You know what I mean? Like there there is a consistency and a loyalty to wanting to tease this out that you're experiencing, which I think is in a sense v at least similar to that relational aspect of faith that we're we're talking about. Um I mean, quite frankly, like yeah, this is the wrestling with God in the dark hours of the night type of thing, and being like, wait, don't let go, don't let go of me until you bless me. Yeah. Um, and like I guess that puts you in good company depending on how you feel about Jacob. Um but like, you know, like that's uh that's kind of the the thing is that it is about wrestling and you know the people in the Bible lived in a world where the supernatural so-called was kind of just assumed. Like not there were some atheists in the ancient world, but it wasn't a a default position by any stretch of the imagination. Like most people had some kind of supernatural belief of sorts, but they start from that point and they make their faith about um loyalty and commitment to whatever their spiritual path is, whoever their god was. I think in the modern world we've been get we've been handed a very different type of problem with secularity and the idea of like, okay, what if what if the normative idea was that no, there isn't any such thing beyond what's observable? Um, and in what's observable there's also nothing more there's there's no hand of God within it type of thing, right? That's a very different consideration, and so we have a layer of the faith and belief question that the people in the Bible maybe weren't dealing with directly. Right. But I think that just means that the wrestling exercise just takes on new dimensions. Right? And the the wrestling exercise um now now is no longer just uh you know, I won't let go of you until you bless me. But like if you're there, if I'm even holding on to you in the first place, I won't let go until you bless me. Yeah. Which is just to say it's it's a deeper and more much more elusive uh wrestling match and I don't know what the ref is up to. That that comparison doesn't work. Um and I don't think you will land a stone cold stunner on the Lord anytime soon, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_03Stone Cold Stunner. Well I don't even know what we could equate that to in in religious terms. What would that mean?
SPEAKER_04I have no idea what that means. I just said it.
Should religious people be careful about information sources?
SPEAKER_03Stone Cold Stunner. Well I'm trying to think how we should wrap this up. Um I think yeah I think a lot of my I mean the initial question of can faith and knowledge mingle I think is very um conclusively answered, at least for me. I mean like this there I think that it's very obvious that like there's plenty of knowledge seeking being done in Christianity and I mean for year for for as long as Christianity has existed um there's been plenty of of knowledge seeking within that. Do you think do you think faith-based people should be cautious of where they seek knowledge or like who they're seeking it from should do you think this fear that maybe pursuing questions could lead me to an unraveling of faith? It seems to be a legitimate fear to me just based on what I've observed.
SPEAKER_04I think it's about what do you qualify as an unraveling of faith because like I sit here saying I've never deconstructed and yet I don't believe all the same things I believed when I started my journey with God. Like it when I started at least taking it seriously I think from the point of view of 15 year old Max, I would look at me now and be like your theology has completely unraveled and the much older version of me would look back at him and be like no you've just grown. And actually I'm looking through like our previous version of the notes and there was something that you highlighted that you thought was really good which I honestly don't know why I haven't defaulted more to my old notes because I said a lot of things decently in there. But the point the part that you thought was like hey this is good is I wrote um sometimes we get handed a package of ideas like we get handed a package that can't grow with us. It doesn't mean there aren't other packages sometimes even within the same faith tradition but just like a a different bundle of ideas a different way of holding them together that actually is better for growing with you. And I would say if you're worried that the whole thing's going to come unraveled, what if you just tied it together in a different configuration all the same pieces but different parts are are holding up other parts to allow for that growth to happen. Or like you switch out one or two things. Like I I think people take this all or nothing approach which is itself I think a symptom of fundamentalism lingering on is this very antagonistic all or nothing approach. Whereas like growth in your beliefs is gradual and it's like a little piece at a time and you you learn little by little and you do it slowly and you meditate on things and like honestly that is probably going to be descriptive of healthy growth whether you're growing as an atheist or as a Christian is like you don't do these all or nothing leaps into like different conc I mean yeah jump jumping to conclusions right like you you gotta take it at a pace that feels manageable. Excuse me. And the other thing I would say is like if people are really struggling with this as much as you can get into community with people who might be able to point you in an interesting direction where they say like well maybe this might be helpful for you or have you considered this or like I'm reading this right now you might find it interesting if you can access people who have more knowledge than you like maybe they can hand you some resources or give you some perspective to start you down a certain path and if you don't like where that's leading you try something different and keep asking yourself like I want to pursue more knowledge is there more variety of knowledge than I'm aware of right now? I think you experienced this even in us prepping the short notes the show notes was like there's a lot more variety and options of perspectives than a lot of us get presented with and the idea that it's like either the most hyper literalistic fundamentalism or the most like unabashed, shameless like uncompromising unbelief like that itself is a mythology that it's it that it's as black and white as that right that that itself is part of the myth of modernism and and the antagonism between faith and science between faith and reason between religion and modernity it's it's so much more nuanced and complex than that and there's way more avenues that you can explore and deepen your knowledge in all kinds of different directions before you even begin doing these like big jump ship type of choices. Yeah. So yeah I would just I would say to people if you're worried that like everything will come undone if you start learning things just remember there's so many different directions you can begin learning in.
SPEAKER_03So definitely yeah that's 100% that's the lesson that I kind of came to reading your initial like responses to all my questions. Just the re the the very fact that I came to that point of wondering if knowledge and faith can mix was because of this narrow perspective that I had held on through from to from childhood where this is the only way faith could look but like it's can be so much more broader than that. Like there's always because we're human we're always going to tend to want to get stuck in our own little perspective and forget that there's other there's a there's a whole big world out there. There's a lot of other different perspectives and ways of doing things out there. And if you're yeah if you get stuck in one perspective maybe it's because you've outgrown it and it's time to even just sidle over just a little bit and see this this other perspective.
Conclusion
SPEAKER_04So yeah if I can give you like a a nice little tie a bow on it closing tidbit thought a quote from Saint Anselm of Canterbury whose years are from about 1033 to 1109 he has this quote yeah he's got this quote um and I do not seek to understand that I may believe but believe that I might understand and this quote from him has kind of been taken up and there there's variations on on it from different thinkers in Christian history but a lot of people have taken this quote as kind of the paradigm statement for a model of faith within like a Christian model of faith that is faith seeking understanding. Like I have started with belief but from being in a place where there's something I believe I then seek to understand. And that the these are not hostile activities but like the one motivates the other like believing actually leads you to want to understand and that that's healthy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's a great way to end it. It's a fantastic quote all right well yeah I think we've thoroughly covered this I mean like most of our episodes I'm sure we could do another episode on this topic many other episodes but I think this this feels like a good definitely a good stopping place and I think a lot of things have been like you said tied up with a nice little bow in what we've talked about.
SPEAKER_04I think what what I'll say to our listeners is if there's anything that has come up over the course of this episode that you would like to hear more about because we do a lot of picking our topics amongst ourselves based on what we think you'd be interested in. But we I think would really really love it if you took some of that intellectual heavy lifting off of our plates and you tell us what to talk about. Tell us topics that you want to hear discussed more thoroughly um whether it's something you heard in this episode or whether it's something else that just is on your mind more to our artsy side or our creative side or our career side we're pretty multifaceted on this podcast and on this channel. So please send us a message you can text us um which is a feature that we've been rolling out recently and we have our Discord community where we talk about all kinds of things together and we are in the process of continuing to build that community up. So if you want to keep the conversation growing uh keep no going keep the conversation going and keep growing keep growing is our thing right but please join us in on our Discord community. Yeah there's all kinds of ways to keep the chat going.
SPEAKER_03Pester Max with all your heavy theological questions.
SPEAKER_04Pester me all day every day with all of your questions. And you Darcy I feel I I think you don't give yourself enough credit for being very um inquisitive in a very positive constructive way. I I think you need to give yourself more credit for that. Like you might think that your questions are simple but like they're simple because they're foundational questions. You know what I mean? And that's that actually makes them really important.
SPEAKER_03Yep in our New Year's episode I told you that one thing I wanted to work on this year or one thing I wanted to leave in last year was comparison. I am very notorious for that and um I do tend to do that and give myself less credit but you're always very good at reminding me to give myself more credit for things.
SPEAKER_04So thank you for that influence my life you're great at reminding me you're great at reminding me not to beat myself up for talking in lots of words because that's literally I love that so much about you.
SPEAKER_03I learned so much so it's very cool to we're yes cousins that's deep passion fruit lore for those of you who didn't know that. Yeah we didn't figure that out until we started working together in passion fruit by the way but pretty crazy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah awesome well this has been the show and uh thank you for tuning in and you're gonna hear a pre recorded version of me telling you the same thing again. Until next time. We'll talk to you all next time. Bye everybody thank you so much for tuning in to the Passion Fruit podcast. We look forward to chatting with you in the next one and until then let's keep growing together