The Passionfroot Podcast

12: Is Comfort KILLING Our Generation?

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Welcome back friends! We're so excited to bring you another FULL group episode! Today, we talk about when to seek discomfort vs comfort. They say "discomfort leads to growth," which is true, but it's not always the best option. Sometimes you need to follow the ease. 

But...how do you discern when to choose comfort and when to choose discomfort? When do you pivot in your career and when do you push through? When does comfort become avoidance, and when is escapism actually a GOOD thing?

Tune in for an in-depth conversation and let us know what you think!

💭 Join the conversation: When has choosing discomfort been the right decision for you, and when has it been the wrong decision?


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We’d love to hear from you!


Our video on loneliness and making friends in your 20s: https://youtu.be/vijz7ZZuCJw?si=mCmO6RBPJptpW_Z4



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#thepassionfrootpodcast #ComfortvsDiscomfort #discomfortzone

SPEAKER_05

I guess cognitive dissonance will do that, right? Once you have that discomfort inside, you can either choose to live in that perpetually and just like go crazy, or a l like allow your brain to kind of go on a path and then the external sort of becomes uncomfortable in a way.

SPEAKER_00

The unexamined life is not worth living. Like one of the one of those principles from like ancient Greek philosophy, like you have to examine what you're doing and yeah, it's uncomfortable, but like so is the so is not doing the uncomfortable thing, right?

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to Passion Fruit, where we navigate life, purpose, and faith outside the box. I'm Mel. I'm Darcy. I'm Adwa.

SPEAKER_00

I'm Max.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm Evan. Let's dive in. Alright, everyone. Hello and welcome back to the Passion Fruit.

SPEAKER_05

Hello and welcome back to the Passion Fruit Podcast. We are excited to be back with you in person again for this episode. I'm Mel, I'm going to be your host today, and we have a full team ready to comment on what I feel like is actually, okay, on one hand, a very uniquely modern problem, but on another hand, kind of a universally experienced thing. The tension between comfort and growth. Before we dive in though, I just wanted to kind of share a little bit about where the inspiration for this episode came from. So last year we also did a bunch of podcast recording in person, and there was a comment that Evan made. It was our video on loneliness. Now I'd encourage you. Link below, check that out on our channel. Definitely a relevant conversation. But when speaking about sort of navigating loneliness and what some green flags are in friendships and building relationships, Evan, you said follow the ease. And it sort of almost became a little bit of like passion fruit lore. Unexpectedly. I was not expecting that. Do you just want to explain sort of what that means and how you stumbled upon that in your own life?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Okay. Specifically, since we were talking about friendships, there is a level of just alignment. Again, alignment is one of my favorite words and values. There's a level of alignment that at least I have experienced in the friendships that have really, I guess you could say clicked. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with like a slow burn, because sometimes, you know, um, that can be different from clicking and things like that. But to me, it just meant that when you are in a productive, healthy, helpful um relationship, as in like friendship, platonic, whatever it is, there's a certain level of just even if you have difficulties that you're still able to flow with that thing. There's a this is a yeah, there's like a flow with it. Um, so it's not completely void of problems, but when you do have problems, there's not this insane pushback where the thing feels borderline, like not doable. That makes sense. Yeah. So that's kind of where I was going with that. And you can apply that to anything. I'd say, like, even if it's like a degree in college or whatever it might be, like there's a level of okay, this thing might be a little challenging, but it still feels right in a sense.

Agree or disagree: Comfort is killing our generation

SPEAKER_05

Like it's kind of like a uh that's intuitive language, but yeah, an alignment and intuition about it being the right thing, yeah. I found that so fascinating because I again I began applying this kind of follow the ease concept to different things in my own life. And then at one point I found myself in a situation where I was like, follow the ease, follow the ease. And I was like, hang on a second, if I do follow the ease in this like conflict that I'm experiencing, I may actually be stifling my growth. And I've since been sort of pondering that, wondering whether where is the line there? So we're gonna be chatting about that today, but I just wanted to kind of start off with um when I use the phrase comfort is killing our generation, what like do you guys, first of all, do you agree with that statement? And second of all, what what images does that conjure up for you? And when I say our generation, I mean like Gen Z Billennial predominantly, sort of yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I think I think I would agree with it. Um probably the most obvious um area is people's relationships. Like I think we're getting really comfortable with parasocial relationships, yeah. And like isolation and all these things. In part it's due to comfort, I'd say. Um, because it's a lot easier to I I think social media and technology in general has made it easier to maybe just let uncomfortable situations and in friendships kind of slide away because you can get distracted by all these other things and we're not talking to each other as as deeply as often as maybe we did before technology.

SPEAKER_05

I mean the fact that ghosting is a thing is like a red by the peak avoidance, right there. Any other situations come up, thoughts come up in terms of companies killing us?

SPEAKER_01

I disagree a little bit. Just in the sense of for me at least, I think a lot of the the people that I'm inspired by or the people I find myself surrounded by are actually very ambitious and putting themselves in a lot of uncomfortable situations to achieve their goals, bring their dreams to life. And in that way, maybe it's like ambition is killing our generation. But again, that's very I I do agree with what you say, Darcy, as well. I think it does depend on the context, but I think that there is a conversation there around ambition being the other side of the coin.

SPEAKER_03

You think there's like hustle culture? Yes, yeah, there's hustle culture and then there's let me avoid all discomfort at all costs. I do see more hustle culture, you're right. I do, at least in the media. And maybe we're also kind of like living in our own, you said in your own bubble. And I can yeah, in our bubbles, we have ambitious people, but it's like, you know, I'm not too sure what the you know what everybody else might be leaning into. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I w I wonder if hustle culture comes out of comfort, because would you agree that hustle culture a lot of it is for the sake of comfort because money is comfortable?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a means to an end.

SPEAKER_00

And also if you are finding your identity or your self-worth in achievement, then like being really ambitious can also be a way of pursuing a sense of stability, security, or even just avoiding quiet moments where you have to take a hard look at yourself or interrogate your um motivations and and whatever, right? So I the thing is, and kind of what I was thinking was like comfort is killing our generation, discomfort is killing our generation. We don't know what to do with anything. Um that's kind of the big one. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_05

It'll it's almost like the extremes of the spectrum are killing our generation. Yeah, right. And we need to find some kind of middle balance, but yeah, the extremes.

SPEAKER_04

Because the extremes cause each other too. Like you're working really hard in this like hustle culture mindset, and then when you finally have a break, you're gonna escape from things, consume media, perhaps, instead of like being alone with your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00

It's really reinforcing type of thing.

When has discomfort lead to growth in your life?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, very interesting. I know when I reflect on my own experiences in life, discomfort or I guess grief, loss, sorrow, bad experiences have definitely led to the most amount of growth. I would be so curious to know if you guys can share anything in your own life, if you feel comfortable sharing anything that has led to growth in your life.

SPEAKER_03

That was birthed from discomfort?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe even growth that wasn't. Maybe my hypothesis is wrong. Maybe growth doesn't come from discomfort. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

I think growth doesn't exclusively come from discomfort or like necessarily. Because you can also be in an uncomfortable situation and not grow from it. But if you have the right disposition, yeah, like you know, discomfort can definitely cause growth. Um I mean, it's one of those things where you do have to respond constructively to it. Because you could be in discomfort and respond just in complete self-destruction and like develop an addiction or develop a unhealthy coping mechanism or something, right? And then yeah, there's no growth from that per se. But I think if you embrace the discomfort for what it is and then try to do something with it, then that's I think where you experience growth. For me, uh there's been a lot of moments actually, now that I think about it. Um when we were in school together, um, not per se together, not the same program, but at the same time at the same institution, I was doing my masters and it didn't feel aligned with my goals or my purposes or my hopes and dreams. It felt like it was taking me away from those. And I also felt very I mean, I've alluded to this before in our content, but I felt very isolated and very out of step with the people around me. Um, but not all of them, because I did meet a lot of great people too, but the overall vibe of the institution and the the culture of my program, I was just like, oh man, this just does not fit me at all. And uh even a lot of the music I wrote during that time period was about the frustration of feeling like I was going in the wrong direction or running in circles or being stuck various angles on that same feeling. And I looking back at it, did I grow from it? Yeah, absolutely, like hugely so. I learned how to cope with a lot of stress, I learned how to live with weird tension, I learned how to kind of be more resilient, I think, and f and how to find meaning and purpose and fulfillment in situations that I didn't like, which all of those are good things, and I do value the education that I got. Like I think I did invest myself into this the studies it themselves, and so I did get good value out of it. Um but yeah, definitely uncomfortable. And there's there's a part of me that still goes, like, I wonder if I would change it if I could go back, because there's so many other ways that that time period in my life could have gone that I think I would have enjoyed more, that would have felt more aligned with what I wanted, but at the same time I'm like, but I value a lot of where I ended up. So like do I trade those things in, or do I accept that like the discomfort was necessary for like the things about myself that I like now, right?

SPEAKER_03

So Okay, yeah. For me, I can recall when I first got into my program. I'm getting a doctorate in clinical psychology right now, and when I first got into this program, I first quarter was the one of the hardest quarters for sure, just because I felt like I was doing a lot of things that I wasn't good at, and I think most people can relate to not wanting to do things they're not good at, but I realized that was like really a thing for me. For instance, I was taking my first um well not first, but I was taking a statistics course. I am not good at statistics, I'm just it's just my brain does not work that way. And so I was taking the stats course, and I've always found a lot of value in um being this helper. Again, it's kind of like a type 2 Enneagram thing. So it's like being the being resourceful, being the person that's like, oh, if you need something, yes, I I have this thing for you. Oh, I could send you this playlist that I made, or I could do this thing like, and for instance, in the stats course, it was like the crux of like my cohort's experience in our first quarter. We were all just trying to come together to pass the stats course, and I was really struggling with not being able to be the person that helped because I needed so much help myself, and then on top of that, um, so that was just a very uncomfortable position to be in. I was like, if I can't help, then I'm not what's like I'm not being useful, and then it started to feel like a value thing, like I don't feel as valuable if I'm not helping in this way, and so that was deeper than I felt like I expect than I expected it to be. And then on top of that, I was also learning things like pickleball, which is such a Californian thing. I was learning pickleball, and that was a steep learning curve, and it sounds like a trivial thing, but at the time, those little things started to add up. I'm like, I'm playing pickleball with my friends, I'm also not good at that, and so I just feel like I need help there, I need someone to help teach me this, and that felt it's like a level of like slight, like almost embarrassment, too. Cause again, it like there were so many learning curves at one time. I feel like so, even those sports, it's like, oh, you're literally just playing with your friends. It was resonating much deeper for me, compounded with, and you can't help people with this stats thing, and there's other courses in this quarter right now that you are you're not like um doesn't come naturally to you. And then as time went on, obviously each quarter has different classes, and so there are certain quarters where I'm like, these classes I'm taking, I feel like I'm it this is my this is my time to channel, like this is my element. I really like this thing, but yeah, I remember first quarter was just like so many courses and things that were just out of my scope, and I was like, this is a really uncomfortable position to be in. I need so much help. Did you see that tangibly grow you? Like, have you gotten better at I guess letting go a little bit? Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, and it's also because I think I accepted that throughout this program we all have different strengths, and we we are starting to see where our strengths are, and it's like, okay, yeah, I might yeah, that was just that was a moment of growth. I'm like, you can't be good at everything, and that's literally fine. Like everybody has their strength, everybody has everyone will be able to get that opportunity to um be helpful to someone else, and that's fine. Like, and that's um an act of humility to be like, I don't know what I'm doing, any help.

SPEAKER_04

Um, I think perhaps one of the most obvious things for everyone that is a place of discomfort but necessary is breakups, going through breakups to to like initiate that conversation and feel like this is not going where I feel like it should be going. We're not you know lining up with each other. It's really difficult to start that conversation and to let go of that person. Um, but also like obviously the person that you're with is like so crucial, and you kind of you change each other as you continue growing with each other. And like the person that I dated before Delena, who I'm now married to, like, he's a good guy, but he was definitely not the person for me. And I I was not a person for him looking at who he's with now, and like I'm so glad that I was brave enough to let go of that because I really would be a different person today if I had not let go of him, and I feel so aligned with who I am now, and obviously really, really grateful for that decision I made that that takes a lot of discomfort to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Good on you. A lot of people just stay stuck, yeah, yeah, and then they regret it forever.

How do you know when to push through and when to pivot?

SPEAKER_05

I really relate to what you've said. I think for me, probably the greatest growth period in my life was directly after a breakup, but also that was compounded by um losing a job and um losing like a whole friend group alongside the breakup. Like it were just all these things that kind of compounded at the same time, and I was like, okay, God, like what's going on, what's going on? What are you trying to teach me? But I'm really curious actually, just to take a one step back. Like Evan and Max, you both said, like, you know, in your course you've experienced discomfort. I also did a university course that I found incredibly uncomfortable at a uh most of the time, all the way through. I did a law degree. Um, and I have a humanities mind, so in some ways it wasn't difficult, but in other ways it really was. It just wasn't it wasn't for me. I wanted to be an artist, I wanted to be a designer, whatever. That I'm curious to know if any of you can speak to this. Like when it comes to chasing your dreams, chasing your passions, you know, being in course, whatever it is, when do you forge? What when do you like push through and when do you pivot? Because like I think looking back on my life, uh, I don't regret the decisions I've made, but I think if I had pivoted earlier, definitely would have be I would be a different person.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So what came to mind is there's a book by Seth Godin called When to Quit. Or it's something along those lines, when to quit, or the it basically the the premise of the book is that there's a distinction between quitting when you should stick with it, and quit and knowing to when something is a dip where you will come through the other side, but there's going to be a steep learning curve, there's going to be those breaking moments that are going to make you question everything. And the reason why I bring that book up is because I think at least thinking about when I was at university and just thinking about young people today and kind of the push into higher education, once you start something, I think there is a lot of pressure to finish, regardless of whether you're enjoying it, whether you actually feel this is something you're going to continue. And so I think that some people do stick with things that they could have pivoted earlier on with. Yeah, I think it's an interesting, it's an interesting question. I think it really then depends on your own confidence in the decisions that are going to be best for you. I mean, in my case, I loved the courses I was studying. I definitely pushed through. I did my all-nighters, I looked up my 30 peer-reviewed journal articles to cite for my essays. I was really dedicated in that time, and I could I sort of knew, look, this is going to be the cost of graduating with the standards that I want to graduate with. But then again, you know, I graduated with a law degree. That was one of the degrees I graduated with. And sort of in my mind, I think I really had thought about okay, I want to pursue the traditional path of practicing law, not really being aware that there's so many other options for lawyers. Like I'm a lawyer, I'm not practicing law right now. But that was a moment where I had to know to quit because I went down the traditional path, was working at a firm. I thought it was my dream job. And in many ways, it was incredible. It was an amazing experience. But like you described, Mel, there was something else that I wanted to explore. But was I going to stick with it? Because when you say I'm a lawyer and I'm working at this firm, people's reactions are, wow. You see the trajectory, you know, you see on LinkedIn people getting promoted to partner or associate and they're living a luxurious lifestyle and they're being praised. And so you can stick with something, you're struggling in something because it's meant you're meant to be enjoying this, you're meant to be thriving in this, but it might not be for you. And in that moment, I had to make that decision of I need to choose myself. Uh, so for me, that's a a tangible way that that's shown up for me. But I think it's really knowing that it's gonna it's gonna require your time because it's gonna require your investment. So, what are you investing in?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Out of curiosity, Evan, like as a mental health practitioner, how would you advise a client, like in Azure situation? Um, I have a follow-up question as well, but like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_03

That is a good question. So if you well, I guess in what regard? If you like if you if you were to come to me for therapy about so in your case, someone who was trying to figure out when to pivot?

SPEAKER_01

Is this yes, yeah, okay. And perhaps I guess in my case, and some of you I know can relate to this, we all can relate to this in a way I think being very hard on yourself and putting a lot of expectations on yourself because a lot of what I might be coming to you with is I feel that this is what I should be doing. Yeah, yes, and that fear of if I don't do that, then what is my value?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah, yeah. I like to with clients, I like to like strip it way back and first ask, let's get clear on your values. What do you value? Also, and let's say, for instance, that they say family is a value. So I already know within my head, okay, I'm operating within a collectivistic um framework now. This isn't necessary, this isn't like an individualistic thing. So, okay, so if you say it matters to you how your family sees you, I'm not gonna say, Well, listen, it's just do what you gotta do, girl. It's all about you, or because that's not relevant to this client in that way. So you have to respect that collectivistic um culture. So, and if they say, Okay, um, also a value of mine is if they say something like pursuing my passions or or honoring my passions or something, and then again, I would just like get really tangible and we'll create a list. I'm like, okay, these are your values. Let's say, let's think about now what um behaviors do you currently engage in that align or don't align with what you're doing, and then we'll talk through that and then we'll say, okay, so we've we've gone through this now. Where would you like to be? Where are you now? Where would you like to be? And if it's relevant, we may talk about where have you been in the past, but we like to focus more on the present with these things and not just like harp on like history and history and past history. It's like, okay, we're here now, regardless of how it happened, we're here. So now what? So then we may be like, what is getting in the way of you acting in accordance with this value? And let's talk about that. What are what are some of the things hindering you from there? And then so we'll take it literally step by step that way from the ground up. And um in talking about and identifying the things that like the blockers to acting in accordance with their values. Um, like you said in your case, um, there's this fear, you said if there's this fear of not doing what you should, should, yeah, right. Then we get to that should therapist therapy hate the word should. Uh hate that word. Um, but I would we would unpack that and be like, okay, you mentioned this should feeling. Where's that coming from? Where where am I? And if they can't, sometimes they can't just say it directly, but it's like, who when you think about where you should be, I mean. Might ask, like, who comes to mind, or what kind of things when can you recall when you started to feel that way? Then we can kind of identify, oh, this was the trigger for this. I should be doing this thing. Then we'd unpack that. Okay, let's talk about that area. So yeah, it's it really feels like an art now that I'm talking about. It is very, it's a lot of fun. Um, so yeah, that's kind of how I would tackle that when I was talking to a client.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Because you mentioned the values and how that's something that is central in your practice. I really resonate with that because through that process of reflection, through that questioning, I realized one of my values is freedom. And a lot of the ways my life was structured was constriction of my ideas, constriction of my creativity. So everything Ivan said is really good stuff.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And a lot of people don't know when you ask them what are your values. Sometimes they can't ask, they can't answer that question. Like, what do you mean? And so then I may be like, Well, let's talk about the things you like to do. What are your hobbies? Like, strip it back again. How do you spend your time? Oh, so you spend your time playing the piano. That means you might value creative, um, you might value musical expression. You've that might be a value for you, and they're like, Oh yeah, I guess it does make sense. Things like that. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I just I want to say too, like everything you're saying about the process. I'm like, oh, I recognize that as what my therapist was doing to me. Yeah, I'm just like, it's very it's almost like it's a you know standardized professional discipline or something, right? Yeah. As an aside, men go to therapy, they don't tell you what to think, they make you explore what you do think. Correct.

When shifting beliefs necessitate CHOOSING discomfort

SPEAKER_03

Not gonna tell you what to do, ever. Not gonna tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_05

How about okay, I'm gonna pivot this conversation slightly into a more spiritual sort of area, but you mentioned values. I think that is so interesting, like as a concept. What about when your values might be in flux? And maybe I'm overstepping like the definition there, I'm not entirely sure, but Darcy, I know you're going through a period of like deconstruction, and that is essentially choosing discomfort and maybe values shifting over comfort, right? Like what's familiar. How is that being, first of all? How does that feel? And secondly, like, yeah, how do you know when when to choose that discomfort and when not to? I don't know, can you just like explore that a little bit?

SPEAKER_04

Well, it feels very scary, not just on an existential level, but like when you said your value shifting, when I'm starting to question all the values I was raised with because I'm questioning the context from where they came from, it feels very destabilizing. Christians like to talk about this idea of the slippery slope, and like if you take one step, you're gonna like tumble down, you know, all the way. And I think I do actually have this like kind of mistrust and maybe fear of myself and like of that happening because um I'm just like questioning little things, and it's like, oh, I've been taught all my life that questioning this one little thing, it's so easy to get over here where I'm like, I would never be that person, but now I feel closer to that person than I did before. Um, that's pretty scary with deconstruction in general and have and going through that process. I felt like yes, it's uncomfortable, but it almost wasn't a decision I made. Like there's something that had to happen, it's like inevitably feel like there's no way I could have avoided that, I feel like. Maybe because of discomfort as well. Because if when I you know, if I'm if I'm living in a way that doesn't feel aligned with me, but I'm just accepting it because it's the most comfortable thing, I'm still uncomfortable on the inside with that decision. So we're like straddling two areas of discomfort here. Um and the discomfort inside of me pushed me into this other area of discomfort and questioning things that I had never questioned before. Um, it just felt like the most natural flow of life for me.

SPEAKER_05

Again, even though it was uncomfortable. I guess cognitive dissonance will do that, right? Once you have that discomfort inside, you can either choose to live in that perpetually and just like go crazy, or like allow your brain to kind of go on a path and then the external sort of becomes uncomfortable in a way.

SPEAKER_00

Well, people kind of talk about the whole like choose your hard, right? Like being being unhealthy and like not fit is hard, and so is working out, right? And so, right, like live living with an underdeveloped worldview that you never take hold of for yourself is challenging and it doesn't equip you to answer like real challenges in life. But then going and saying I have to rebuild my worldview structure from the ground up, also hard, right? So it's it's one of those things where you have to choose like which kind of heart are you going to live with.

SPEAKER_04

And the cost analysis. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And like, you know, the unexamined life is not worth living. Like one of the one of the classic axiom, maybe not an axiom, but one of those principles from like ancient Greek philosophy, like you have to examine what you're doing, and yeah, it's uncomfortable, but like so is the so is not doing the uncomfortable thing, right?

When does seeking comfort become avoidance?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and honestly, like it's so worth it because yeah, it's uncomfortable, and maybe I did go through like a couple weeks of existential crisis, and that was uncomfortable. Um, and I mean, and and I still have moments, like it's it's nice to have that certainty that I had in Christianity, but it's actually made life so much more vibrant, I think, to be able to explore the meaning of life and and again existential questions and to be able to dig into those really weighty topics. It just I think the human pursuit for knowledge, um, both individually and also with community, having conversations, listening to conversations, just so fun. Like it's actually so exciting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I really respect, and I know Evan, you're kind of going through deconstruction as well, and you know, this is something that we've all kind of experienced. I really admire the bravery that it takes to do that. Um, I think I often question in my own life, because for context, I've I've probably deconstructed the least out of this group. I'm probably the most vanilla scene in a way. Um, but sometimes I'm like, am I just too scared to do it? Like, am I too scared to ask the questions? And sometimes you just kind of bury that under layers of busyness and kind of you know, whatever it is that you value. Um and so I guess the question, maybe for Evan again, therapy, but also for everyone, like when does seeking comfort, the familiar, become avoiding a problem? And yeah, what's the difference between self-care, like comfort, self-care, you know, not having the difficult conversation, and self-sabotage?

SPEAKER_00

Context. Like in in a word, you know what I mean? And I I don't mean for that to be dismissive, but it's one of those things, like so as this conversation has progressed, like Ecclesiastes 3 keeps coming to my mind. For everything, there's a season, a time to build up and a time to tear down, deconstruct, right? A time to answer the questions or the time to ask the questions. And it's that's one of those things where the answer, I don't think it's abstract, I don't think it's a principle thing, I think it's practical, and you have to actually be kind of boots on the ground in your own lived experience to figure out what is the time that you're in for me going through finishing the program I was in. One of the values that I was raised with, and I think my dad really instilled this in me too, is the idea of like, it's good, generally speaking, to finish what you start. Right? It's like if you start something, finish it. Like you will it turn out to be the greatest thing ever? Maybe yes, maybe no, but like at least you saw it through to completion and then you can reflect on it as a finished process, right? It's contextual, yeah. It's contextual because that I think is generally valuable and true, but also if you push that really hard to its extreme, it becomes the sunken cost fallacy. It becomes the like, well, I'm too far into this to turn back now, which you could have done in your context. You could have been like, Well, I'm already a lawyer, like, what's the point of pivoting now? Like, I've already done all this, all of this study and gotten all these qualifications. It's too late, right? And any of us could do that at any point. Like, I've been a Christian for so long now. Why begin asking all these hard searching questions now? Like, let me just stick with what I know, right? And that's a logical fallacy, right? And it's one of those things where you do have to hold intuition and rationality and evidence all in tension with each other and experience and all of that, right? So, yeah, context is kind of the difference, and it's that itself is uncomfortable because it's not clear-cut or absolute, it's it's very much a thing that you have to be attentive to as you walk step by step, right? And you don't really have a way to absolutely know for sure, which is I think where faith is itself an act of knowing, even if it's faith to take a step outside of faith. You know what I mean? Like you having to trust yourself even when you're not a hundred percent sure you can trust yourself, right? And it's a risk. And that's where I think faith as a value abstracted from religion is also valuable.

SPEAKER_01

I'm glad you took it there, Max. The context thing. And this directly builds off what you were saying, Max. And following on with your question, Mel, Evan, for example, going back to that case of like a client, they have a very specific context, and they're trying to discern not what they should do based on the external, but what they truly want to do. Yeah. How do you advise a client who is feeling really confused, maybe, about when to know the difference between self-sabotage and self-care, between avoidance and comfort? Yeah.

Short-term comfort = long-term discomfort

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. How would I advise a client? Well, striking the balance between comfort and self-sabotage. I would say, let me say, okay, a lot of my clients who I've seen up until this point have been teens. And the number one mental health disorder um challenge, might you might say, is anxiety and depression amongst adolescents and teens, right? And so most of them come to me with anxiety, and a lot of them obviously we've all experienced anxiety. We don't all have an anxiety disorder, but we all have anxiety at some point, and that is a very uncomfortable um experience, emotion. And so naturally, most of my clients come to me and they're just like, How can I get rid of this thing? I don't want it, it's not helping me. So then, of course, and I say, Well, let's think about times when anxiety has helped you. We don't want to get rid of this thing, we want to change our relationship to this thing, right? If a fire alarm is going off and we had no anxiety, we would literally sit here and potentially die. So I I like to use that um that analogy with them. I'm like, there are false alarms and there are real threats. And some and our anxiety is like is an alarm, and our brains are just constantly trying to keep us safe. And so our brains can't decipher between a false alarm and a genuine threat. And so when you feel anxiety, I'm like, um, we it's our it's up to us to learn what's the false alarm and what is um a genuine threat to us. And so I like to say that when you're feeling this anxiety and this in this discomfort, the more you avoid this thing that you're feeling uncomfortable by, you are literally reinforcing in your brain, I am being threatened and I I need to avoid this thing because this thing is going to hurt me. And so then that's going to strengthen it over time. The more anxious you feel, you're like, this is dangerous, this is dangerous, this is dangerous. I can't do this. There's too much, I'm gonna lose if I do this, I'm gonna be hurt. Um right, and so we just end up avoiding. That's when we avoid. Now, the opposite is true. I'm like, okay, so if you approach this thing, let's talk about what you might experience. They may say, Oh, I might feel sadness, okay. I might feel um rejected by my family if I do this thing, okay. I might wonder what I'm gonna lose out on. Um, okay, so all of these things are valid. However, okay, and I like to get to the worst case scenario too. I'm like, what's the absolute worst case, best case, and most likely case? I'm like, okay, so even in the absolute worst case scenario, can you handle that though? Because again, we're not trying to avoid discomfort in any way when they come to me with these types of things. And like you might feel very lonely for a while, you might feel um out of place for a while. Can you handle that? You probably can. So it's kind of like accepting that uncomfortable feelings aren't harmful, they're just uncomfortable, and that's fine. Like, it's okay to be uncomfortable. Life is not meant to be in a state of comfort all the time. And a lot of times that kind of clicks to them where they're like, oh, so I don't have to, it's okay to be anxious, it's okay to feel anxiety, it's okay to feel lonely. That's okay. You don't have to avoid that, even though you yeah, it's not uh it's not you're not in danger if you feel that. And so sometimes just again, changing their relationship to discomfort and anxiety and things like that really helps them to be like, okay, I can do it, and I can just let myself feel this and know it will pass. You can't stay in any state forever.

SPEAKER_05

I love what you said about um discomfort not being dangerous, so interesting. And I completely agree. I think that is, especially in the context of anxiety and depression and mental health disorders, that is so important for people to know. So, adjoin, um, I know that you're currently or have recently been in a season of burnout um in your work and life. And would it be correct in saying that in choosing comfort, so like not having difficult conversations or not setting boundaries, it caused long-term discomfort? Is that is that a correct way of like analysing the situation?

SPEAKER_01

Or I think that's definitely the trajectory that I was on and I've been on before, because you're avoiding what is actually going to serve you in the long run. Because we know that burnout, it seems like staying silent, appearing like you can do it all, doing it all to above and beyond standard, at the timelines that have been set, which you might need to negotiate, which as a law student and a lawyer now, it's like I should be able to do that, which I can. But I think that you realize if you make those compromises now, you will, as the research shows, to recover from burnout. It's like seven years. It can be up to seven years. Um and so it's like, do you want to just avoid confronting that superior and letting them know that actually this is not realistic for you, but this is what you can do to meet them halfway, or maybe even a quarter of the way? And in the long run, you'll be a lot happier because now you're not living with those unrealistic expectations on yourself. And I think that a lot of the discomfort can be self-imposed because, like Evan said, worst case scenario. What is the worst case scenario of going in? And sometimes I have literally observed in those difficult conversations that I've had to have to preserve long-term health and enable me to continue to be this uncomfortable in positive ways. I've observed myself in those situations and felt like, okay, this is uncomfortable saying this right now, but I'm alive. I've walked, I've walked out of the office. I still have a job.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, I still can go home. And so I think that what you said, Evan, about knowing that it's okay to feel the anxiety, it's okay to maybe feel the sadness and the loneliness, knowing that it will actually pass. Uh, and I think that that is really positive advice because I can see where this whole premise again for our conversation about comfort is killing our generation. We need to go through difficult things and uncomfortable things, and we can't just escape because a lot of what I consume on YouTube is in some ways escapism. And it's not realistic. This is a point that we have to say, it's not realistic for people who literally cannot go away to a farm and live off the land, which is most of us, exactly. Um, who can't go away and take a sabbatical for a year and live off their their savings that they wouldn't have if they don't stay and and stay the cause. So I really think that shifting my mindset has been essential in this situation, and I know it it is passing and good things are ahead.

unknown

Yeah.

Why escapism can be important

SPEAKER_00

That's beautiful. I think just kind of building off of that too, that willingness to be able to do the uncomfortable step or and like enter that uncomfortable situation, it's kind of important to have that because the other factor here, and this is kind of goes back to people wanting the solid anti-shot and you will get this. Actually, you don't know, right? Um, because like you could actively pursue the thing that you think will bring you a more comfortable situation, and then that fails, right? The or the thing that is immediately uncomfortable might shape you into a more resilient person or a more confident person, and that will pay off as comfort in that same situation later on, right? And so, because I mean, I'm again, people haven't been here for our devotions, but like the the Taoist story of the farmer who lost his horse, right? You can look that up. You'll you should be able to find that pretty easily. But like you don't know if this will be for good fortune or bad fortune, or a sequence of things that is like good one time and bad one other time, for everything there is a season. And so, because you can't know if something will actually end in comfort or discomfort, you have to work with what's known and like you have to work with again thing, what are your core values? What do you think is the right thing to do in the moment, what are you actually experiencing in this moment in time that is at least known and not a hypothetical. And so, yeah, I mean, it's in a weird way, in order to actually get comfort, you have to come to terms with the fact that it will also include probably discomfort in the process, maybe even at the same time as each other. And it's just it's managing those unknowns, right?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. I think what has really stood out to me in this conversation is how nuanced it is. Comfort is killing our generation is a spicy statement to throw out and see what happens. However, I do think there is maybe a generational kind of bias, especially from you know, baby boomers and the old like our parents and grandparents' generations, um, looking at Gen Z millennials and just kind of saying, Oh, we're lazy, we're entitled, we're like addicted to social media, we we're too comfortable. How how can we have those conversations with people like that? Um, and kind of share, I don't know, any insights on how to navigate that. If you have a parent who's like, you know, you you're not pulling your weight, but you're like, actually though, like I just have to like play my game to like fix my mental health for a bit, or whatever it is, like your coping mechanism is. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

I have an interesting thought about escapism, and it's that again, so many things happen simultaneously. The devices that we use to kind of dissociate and like feed us goose memes and stuff like that, like you know what I mean? Um not not that that says anything about things I follow, but um like the the same devices that we use to just kind of drift off into nowhere land of doom scrolling. I mean, we call it doom scrolling for a reason, it's because that same device is also f live streaming us several genocides in real time right now, and like that the things that bring us comfort are also bringing us an inordinate amount of stress and an inordinate amount of exposure to human suffering. And the media that we engage with is not purely escapist either. Like sometimes it's like, oh, I just want to sit down and watch a movie, and the movie just has a big social commentary point to make, right? And it, you know, I I know um some people will think about the media they watch as in purely escapist terms. There's all this controversy, controversy about The Last Jedi when that Star Wars movie came out, and it's funny because the lead actor, Mark Hamill, who plays Luke Skywalker, expressed these really interesting thoughts about thinking that the story is escapist. People use this story to escape from reality and they want it to be hopeful, which is why he was upset that his character, this is a controversial thing, he was upset that his character went down a dark path of like despair and um discouragement. But like doing that was the director's way of telling a story that was more grounded and realistic, and saying, you have to confront hard things in reality, you have to confront failure. Sometimes that happens, and that's uncomfortable. Sometimes your heroes don't remain heroic forever, sometimes they break, sometimes they crumble under the pressure. And it's like, well, that's not an escapist storyline, that's not a hyper idealist storyline, but like I'm I'm encountering things in the media that I consume, maybe even in an attempt to be escapist, that is forcing me back to reality, is forcing me to confront myself. Reality thinking about something that you were talking about about the negative emotions not necessarily being a bad thing, they're the shadow side of good things, right? There's a certain extent, and obviously this has to be held in tension, like anger and theologically, this is interesting. People talk about like why does God have wrath? Uh, you can't believe in a God that is all loving but can't experience anger. Because if if that god is like, I really truly love you um so much, and then someone harms you, and that's the reaction is just like what a day, you know? Like that's like okay, then that's not love. There is there is no love there, right? Um, it's the same thing, like I I watched a uh video essay about children's horror, spooky stories, scary stories, campfire stories. Why do we keep telling these things to ourselves? Why do kids who are supposed to be young and innocent tell the most horrifying stories and sing the most horrifying nursery rhymes that they write for themselves? Like, what is the deal with that? But it's taking fear, anxiety, discomfort, and playing with it in a manageable, safe space, getting familiar with the feeling of fear amongst your friends in an environment where it is like you're not actually in danger, but you can toy with the feeling of being in danger in a place that you can come to terms with it. I think that's why I like metal, because it gives me the feeling of danger and threat and unease, but also empowerment and also um resistance, and you can play with all of those negative emotions in a controlled environment.

SPEAKER_03

This is so applicable to in therapy, we call that exposure therapy, which I myself have also had to do as the client with a therapist, but giving exposure therapies that's exactly what we do. I bring I ask them whatever they come in with as they're presenting problem, super basic. Oh, I have anxiety, I have social anxiety, I don't want to go to school, and I stay home from school because of social anxiety. Whatever their um most fared um situation is, I bring we try to put them in that place while they're in a safe space in therapy. You're not in physical danger, you might feel that way. Let's bring on those extreme uncomfortable, um, uncomfortable feelings that you feel. Let's bring them on here, let's sit with it. And then I say on a scale of zero to ten, where are you at? 10 being extremely extreme anxiety or discomfort, zero being none at all. And that and then they start to notice, okay, my heart's going up. I'm starting to feel sweaty, I'm starting to spiral, I'm starting to like, I'm like, okay, we're gonna keep sitting down, do not try to alleviate it at all. Don't try to escape it in your thoughts. Sit with it, and then we continue until it starts to gradually go down, go down, and go down. And the reason we do that is because we're like teaching our bodies, I'm feeling this thing that does this this does not mean I am actually in danger, it's just uncomfortable. And you build your tolerance with discomfort by doing that. It's like just like a tangible way we do it in therapy, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So I really like that, and I think as a generation, maybe that is how comfort is killing our generation because we don't do that very much. Yeah, we're too distracted, there's too much instant gratification, we can fill any any desire we wanted to tap on Amazon, and you know, it's like you get fulfillment or distraction instantly. Yeah, so yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

And also in like the Christian context, like you're not even allowed to think like shadow work, right? Like your shadow self, you're supposed to ignore that completely, right? You're not supposed and you're supposed to be like, God, please take these bad thoughts away from me. And then you're just living in fear. Like anytime something that you're like, this isn't very Christian, or this isn't for warfare. Yeah, whenever something pops up, you're like, oh my gosh, like go away. The more you try not to think about something, the more you're gonna think about it.

Sometimes you don’t have to climb the mountain: using discernment

SPEAKER_00

Until you're the psalmists or Jeremiah writing the Book of Lamentations, and then you're just spilling the darkest, most horrifying feelings you have onto the page. Which is again to say that, like, I mean, enough for me to harp on things I keep coming back to, but institutional religion very often gets out of step with its source material. And like, there is actually a lot of exploring the shadow side of humanity in the scriptures, but like, because that's not good for control, and because that's not good for rigid standardization across the board, it's easy for institutional religion to be like, I don't don't show that to the people, don't highlight that, even though it's there. But you're but you're right to observe that it's not encouraged.

SPEAKER_05

I think that that goes to show that there is there's different kinds of engaging with discomfort, and we've sort of danced around them that obviously there's like spiritual discomfort, there's emotional discomfort, and I think both of those things are good to sit with and good to engage with, but then when it comes to career discomfort or you know, um even relationship discomfort, I don't know that as you were saying, you know, sometimes um yeah, like the discomfort sitting in the discomfort of like being burnt out is not worth it, you know? So we we need to know what the context is again, as as everyone has been saying. Um and yeah, just use wisdom, I suppose, to navigate that.

SPEAKER_04

We we've been talking a lot about the discomfort or the comfort that we seek that can be unhealthy, which is escapism, consuming media. Um, but I think maybe if we're trying to live lives that are a little bit more balanced, where we're able to live this line of discomfort for positive reasons and also comfort for positive reasons, I'm just gonna bring nature into the conversation. I think we need to learn to slow down. Um, like I was I just had a thought at some point in this conversation, I don't know when it was. Um, but I was thinking of maybe this cliche of like, oh, you have to climb the mountain before you can get the best view, you know, discomfort for self-betterment. But then I also thought, actually, who is to say that's the best view? It's a beautiful view, but like the details of the the trees and the bushes and the grass at the bottom of the mountain are also very beautiful, and like maybe sometimes the path of least resistance um is the decision that you should be taking in that moment, like taking a break, choosing rest over continuing to try to achieve something. Um, so choosing, I guess choosing healthy comfort can be a really good um counterbalance to the discomfort that we also need to choose.

SPEAKER_03

I love that because it it goes away from again black and white thinking this or that, it's discernment. We can come back to discernment for the context.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, just know the context. And I think this is something that will come up in another conversation, and I know Evan will have a lot of great perspectives on this, but I think in terms of is comfort killing our generation, it literally can where just speaking again to my context of like burnout and the career pressures and all of that, if you're not having the time to go outside, be in the sun, exercise, move your body, or seek out the help that you actually need with whatever you're facing, if you don't have the time to manage your emotions and reflect so you can have healthier relationships, are you really living a life that is comfortable? Like the dis uh and that is the uncomfortable to face at the end of your life uh diseases or you know, other things, relationship breakdowns because of the decisions you made to continue on that path. So there's very real consequences as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. I think maybe to kind of summarize, and hopefully I don't butcher this metaphor. I love the metaphor I use for the mountain and I love like the values thing. First of all, like if you're trying to decide or discern whether you need to choose comfort or discomfort in this current moment situation in your life, firstly think of your values. That was so key. Get really clear on those values, get really good on those values, and then assess it's like, is the mountain I'm climbing actually aligned with those values, or are those values like at a different mountain? Like in shows. I think the metaphor is usually it's like you're climbing a ladder, but actually the ladder you're meant to be climbing is over there, and you're like, hang on, hang on a second. Like I've anyway, I've heard that before. Um, but secondly, a mountain that you're on, look around you and be like, is this a beautiful place that I'm in, like the base of the mountain or halfway up a mountain, or do I want a better outlook? Maybe like you know, that just being in the moment and asking yourself, is the current situation I'm in really where I want to be? Um, and yeah, is it is it worth, you know, observing the moss on the nearby tree, or should I be climbing the mountain, you know? Yeah, um I'm taking that for therapy.

SPEAKER_00

If anything, I think my biggest takeaway from this conversation is that like values and principles, that's kind of the real thing, and comfort or discomfort is just a side thing because they they are going both of them will be byproducts of your values. Like if you follow your values and if you don't follow your values, you will end up still with both comfort and discomfort. So get clear on the principles you want to live by.

Comment or message us! What are your thoughts on comfort vs discomfort?

SPEAKER_05

Beautiful, great way to sum that up. Thank you so much. Well, thanks, guys, for your input. That was fascinating. If you guys um listening or watching along on YouTube have any thoughts on this conversation or any experiences of discomfort or comfort you want to share, um please let us know in the comments below. Do you think the comfort is killing our generation? And what in this conversation have we missed? Um, super curious to know. Hit the subscribe button um on whatever platform you're on. It uh really helps out the channel. We would so appreciate that. And we will see you in the next conversation coming soon. In the meantime, oh, you want to say something?

unknown

Uh our tablet.

SPEAKER_05

Our tablet, yes, good, okay. One, two, three. Let's keep growing together. Bye. Thanks so much for joining us today. We'll catch you in the next episode. In the meantime, let's keep growing together.