16: When Mental Health Gets Trendy | THERAPIST REACTS

In this episode, Evin speaks from her education and experience in psychology to inform us of the healthy ways to approach and talk about mental health. She critiques mental health-adjacent terms that have become "trendy," and we discuss topics like accountability, therapy, and self-diagnosing. Stick around to see how a professional therapist responds to phrases like "I'm protecting my peace" and "I'm triggered." How is our common usage of these phrases harmful, how is it helpful, and what were their original, clinical context? 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

That's my boundary. Oh my gosh, you're crossing my boundary. My boundary? My boundary is that you can't do that. That's a boundary. Oh my gosh, everything's a boundary. People don't know what a boundary is.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

People don't please explain to us. What if that's okay? Boundaries. What should what how should we be approaching boundaries? Welcome to Passion Fruit, where we navigate life, purpose, and faith outside the box. I'm Darcy. I'm Adela.

SPEAKER_05 0:29

I'm Max.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

I'm Evan. And I'm Mel. Let's dive in.

Catching up with Evin (and her latest milestone!)

SPEAKER_03 0:34

All right, guys. Welcome back to the Passion Fruit Podcast. We have a familiar face here today, Evan Nausea, who has joined us after passing a very significant milestone in her schooling. So I thought we could just let you have the floor right now and update people on what just happened for you.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Yes. Okay. So for context, I am in year three of five of my clinical psychology doctorate program. And this past week I defended my doctoral project. So some people know it as a thesis, some call it a dissertation. Because I'm getting my PCD, Doctor of Psychology, it's called a doctoral project in that it takes one, it's a bit shorter than a full dissertation would take for PhDs. So my PhD friends are gonna defend next year. Um my own is a little less involved than a full dissertation, so I was able to defend pretty early as well, but it's still a really big milestone for the program. And so it feels really good to get that done and continue to move on with what I need to do for the rest of this program.

unknown 1:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

So I feel accomplished.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Definitely feel good.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Yeah. It's very exciting. And you have a big test coming up in June, you said. What is that test?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah. So it's our big licensing exam. It's called the E Triple P. I low-key always forget what it stands for. So I'm gonna I'm gonna Google it real quick. So eTip, yes, is the examination for professional practice in psychology. And so it's our big licensing exam that we take, um, obviously, to be able to become licensed psychologists. And so you typically study for that from anywhere between three and five months. And I've I chose the five-month route. Um, so I've been studying since January, and my test is on June 10th. So that's the for me, that's like the bigger thing. And then of course, after that, in October, which is not that far away, I'll have to um have applied for internship, which is the big, the final big hoopla before graduation in 2028. Wow. So it's like yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Very cool. So yeah. And and last question related to that, you have been actually like giving therapy to patients as well for like how long now?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah. So this is it's about two years now. I've been a therapist. Um, has it been two full has it been two full years? Uh it's been since 2024. So yeah. Either a full, a full two years or coming up on two years now. Okay, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

So yeah, we're with that. I'm kind of uh taking care of two birds with one stone because we're catching up with you. And also, for anybody that's new to this podcast, we're a group of five people, as you heard in our intro. Um, but Evan has sometimes taken a back seat because she is focusing on her schooling and clearly has been immersed in this world a lot for like the past three years, couple years to go. Um, but also this podcast is very, very related to that field where pretty much Evan is in the hot seat for this episode because she is the professional in the room. And we're talking about like mental health. And so I just wanted to let people know how qualified you are to speak about this. Cause way more qualified than anybody else on the Passion Fruit Podcast. Um also, it would have been so much fun to have other people in this episode. Yeah, but we live like all literally all over the world.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Um zones.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yes. Evan and I are currently in the States, but you know, different time zones. Um, and then we have like a guy in England and a couple ladies in Australia. Um, and so it was just difficult to get more people on the podcast than just us two. I will say our friend Max, he, the guy in England, he did actually want to be on this podcast episode, but this is kind of my fault that he's not on because when I was asking people if they wanted to be on the podcast, he responded back with a very joking answer that I took to be like a roundabout way of saying no. And then a few days later, I realized, you know what? Actually, I'm not sure if I read that right. And it turns out he did. Um, but we'd already scheduled it. So yeah, I felt really bad. Yeah. But that being said, we're gonna do something interesting that we've never done before in this episode that involves kind of like a like a radio show with people calling in.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

So cool.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Yeah. So we'll get to that. Not quite that, but you will hear from Max and another person in

Does our generation lack grit?

SPEAKER_03 5:28

our group. Um, but I'd say let's get into what the actual topic is for the t for today. So I guess we have to go back a little back through time and catch people up on where this originated, where we got the idea to talk about this. Um, you sent a TikTok into our passion fruit group chat, and you were just like, yes, guys, this like this is exactly what I'm saying. One thing he specifically said, oh, I didn't write that down. Um, one thing he specifically said off the top of my head was that we have rest. Yeah, but this is an act. Rest is an act of joy. Rest is an act of wait, joy, joy as an act. Wait, oh my god, rest.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

I think he's saying, oh, something like something. Oh, I think he's saying he said something like rest can only be resistance after you've done some work, basically.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

That is exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Something like rest is like you need some resistance, yeah. Like some like you need something to resist for it to be true.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Yes, yes, we got there. So he he mentioned that phrase, and he was just giving like his I guess his ins and outs for 2026.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

For 2026.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Um, and that was one of them, and but specifically under the title of grit. Um and I did write down the definition of grit, which is courage and resolve or strength of character. So basically, your ability, your your determination to push through something even when it's difficult, and you know, do the work. Do the work. Um the work. Yes. So yes. Evan said that into the chat, and then she and I just kind of ended up having our own little podcast in the chat going back and forth with voice memo. Voices I love them. And you're you're talking about like trends that you've kind of seen in therapy as you've been like existing in that world of people that maybe don't even really need to be there, but almost use it as like a safety blanket or something. Um some of them, yeah. Yeah. So we thought this would be a really, I mean, already we had a lot of discussion about it in the chat. And so we thought it would be a fun uh topic to bring to the podcast. And um we we've given people little peeks here and there of kind of the way we see ourselves and what we each bring to the the podcast. But basically each of us members kind of s have labeled ourselves with like certain archetypes that we bring, we bring those different archetypes and perspectives to Passion Fruit, overall, you know, talking about purpose and being like growth and living your best life and all that stuff. And so Evan is our wellness archetype, our wellness professional. Um, and I think we can all agree wellness is like whole, you know, holistic wellness, both mental and physical, is a really important part of pursuing purpose in your life, living your best life. Um, and so I thought it would be helpful to bring Evan on the podcast and talk about how we can do that for ourselves by like doing the work, um, by not listening to some of the very like trendy mental health cliches and stuff that we hear on social media. Yeah. Like, not you know, because they are meant to do good things, but they've kind of become really watered down and have become maybe more harmful than helpful. So we're gonna go through like all of that in in this episode. Um, so Evan, my first question for you though, going off of that concept of grit, it can be your professional opinion or even just your personal opinion, but do you feel like our generation does lack grit overall?

SPEAKER_01 9:32

I think generally speaking, our generation and just society, we do lack accountability, and many of us do have an aversion to accountability. Um, it's typically met with a lot of defensiveness. There's so much there of why that is um or why it could be, but part of it is that many people kind of lack the awareness of the intention behind their actions, like what is motivating them to do the things that they're doing. And so if you lack that, then of course it's gonna be met with defensiveness because it's gonna feel like a personal attack. But if you can get clear on why exactly do I find myself in this pattern? Why am I always driven drawn to this specific behavior? And it goes so far back, of course, it goes back to your childhood, et cetera. But so I would say that that is partly at the core of why we lack accountability, and that's why I I'd focus more on accountability than grit. I think the two do go hand in hand because if you if we talk about grit as what did you I'm looking at the definition you said, pushing through even when something's hard. Yeah. Um, and strength of character, courage, yeah, it takes courage, accountability takes courage. And so yeah, I'd also say that typically, just generally speaking, I think society also has an aversion to discomfort. Yeah. And so, you know, wanting to avoid things that are uncomfortable, even in my own life, when I think of things that I'm currently avoiding, even if they're small things, some things may be bigger um relationally or whatever it might be, it comes down to the fact that I don't want to feel that uncomfortable. I know I'm not in danger. I know I won't be physically or emotionally harmed by this thing. Uh, it will just feel really hard to sit with. And I think that's a big part too of um not quote unquote, you know, we're saying pushing through. I want to find something, another phrase that's more fitting than pushing through. Because I think that phrase could do a little bit of harm. But yeah, digging deep. Sometimes, yeah, in life you gotta dig deep at a certain point.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

So yeah, yeah. And what uh so you said you kind of are liking the word accountability more than grit. What would you say is the difference, at least in your mind, between those words?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Oh, that's a good question. When I think of grit, I think of okay, gotta hunker down. Well, actually, I don't want to demonize the term because in some way it's resilience. And resilience is a very necessary life skill that we build. It's not something that's inherently just uh built in us. It's something I at least I think we have to work at it, practice to build resilience. And the only thing, the only way you can build resilience, you're right, is by doing difficult things. So in that sense, sure, you could say we all need to um at some point find a little grit to become more resilient. And a part of becoming more resilient is being able to take accountability for your actions and your own patterns, you know? Yeah. So resilience. Resilience.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Yeah. So resilience and accountability are kind of like our two north stars here, I guess, for the nice yeah. Sure. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I guess accountability, just as I see it, is like or resilience is the ability to to go through hard things, maybe again, push through, even though that's not the best phrasing. But um accounting strong. And then accountability is kind of like a way, a tool that you could use in that effort of being resilient.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Um, yeah, I don't know if I actually gave the distinction you mentioned. I think I was just trying to think of what's a better term than grit for me, resilience. Um, but I literally didn't answer your question. So the difference. I'd say again, yeah, resilience is being able to respond in a more in more adaptive ways to stressors, is what I'd say. So when something hits you, which it inevitably will in life, multiple things are hitting us at one time. You don't absolutely crumble and lose yourself. And it's like, you know, you're able to handle that stressor in an adaptable way where you're still feeling your emotions, but you're not being overcome by them. Whereas accountability is being able to own your stuff. So accountability is being able to say, yeah, I fell short of my values. And part of having integrity is being able to

How to know when to forge ahead and when to rest

SPEAKER_01 14:28

own that and to say, I know I where I went wrong, but you know, in this instance, life did not happen to me. I did this thing and I take that, I notice that, I recognize it, and I'm going to um, I'm going to make the necessary changes moving forward. That's what I would say is the distinction.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

That's a good um definition. Because I was like, I know what accountability means, but could I describe it? You know, so thank you for the definition. For sure. Um, so kind of on that note of resilience, I guess more resilience than accountability. Um, would you have any thoughts on how to know when you should keep going, um, forging ahead and when is it okay to like take a step back? I don't want to say give up, but just like stop, you know. Um I guess one very small example would be like trying to finish up some sort of work assignment for the day, and you're just like really exhausted. Like you could be like, oh, this exhaustion, I can push through it. Like, this is just an excuse that I won't don't want to give into. Like, this is my job, I need to finish it. Or you could be like, Why would I push my body through this? Like, my body wants to relax. Like, is it is it yeah, the smart move in that instance to take a step back, or is it giving up? And you don't have to use that example, but how would you define the difference between just yeah, how would you know when to quit and when to push through?

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah. I like that example because what comes to mind is honing your systems. So by that I mean in this example that you gave, let's say that you have a deadline coming up. If you waited too long to get to that deadline, you know, you're cutting it close, then you may not have the luxury of saying, Hey, I need to listen to my body and I need to, I don't I actually don't have to push right now to do this. My body wants to rest, so let me rest. Am I reaching my limits today? Then why am I gonna push myself through it if I don't have to? Now, to be able to do that, because I am a huge fan of that, I think that is the way to kind of mitigate burnout, especially in my own program and getting a doctorate is a lot of work. So that's what many of my days look like. However, because I know that I that is important to me to be able to do that, to say, hey, you know, instead of if my brain's feeling really tired and I don't want to write this paper, I'm actually not going to. I'm actually gonna go hang out with my friends right now. Because a system that I had in place is that I'm gonna give myself enough time to be able to do that. Yes. So yeah, it all comes down to what are your systems like, what's your time management like? Also, and taking into accountability, I mean taking into account, taking into account if you do have bigger stressors in your life, like kids, if you're married, maybe even if you are a caretaker, if you're taking care of a family member, all things that I don't have, and I know that is also a luxury and a privilege right now that I don't have any of those commitments. If you do have those commitments, then again, working with your system. Because if you know you're more susceptible to burnout based on the stressors you have in your life, it is your responsibility to sort that out for yourself so that you don't absolutely crumble under pressure, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Yeah, it's such a good point. Um I think this is this just this general concept of when to push through, when to not. Um, it's something I have been thinking about recently because I'm like four years out of college, and I think back to myself in college, and the general environment around you, it's just like nonstop. Like you're doing homework one moment, and then you're going to hang out with friends the next moment, and then you're going to class and then doing it all over again. And like if you have any, you know, side projects that you really want to do, you have to figure out time to fit those in the cracks of things. Um, and when I was in college, I didn't have like a major that required me to study a ton. I was an art major. So good. Um, but I did have you know my own version of work. So glad I didn't have to my own dummy long hours. I was in, I was in the studio making art.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

So that's another kind of hard though.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

It's another kind of hard. Yeah. Exactly. It's its own, it's its own thing. Exactly. And it's it's not comparable perhaps to let's just take a psychology major, for example. But you don't have to compare the two. Anyways, right. There's no need. Yes. So yeah, I was doing my art classes, I was doing my non-art classes, I was hanging out with friends, and then also I was running my own YouTube channel and editing at any chance I got. And somehow I look back on it, and somehow I don't think I burned out. I just I did it. Um, I just like was doing stuff all the time. I had to be productive all the time. And ever since I got, ever since I graduated from college, I've seen myself just changing little by little, um, and realizing I don't want to be productive, at least in this way, all the time. I mean, there's also just like my job is staring at a screen. And so, like, if in my free time I was editing and staring at a screen too, I don't want to do that either. Um, but I've been kind of going back and forth over like, have I become in some ways lazier, or like, has my work ethic gotten worse, or have I become more balanced? And sometimes I think I've just become more balanced. I'm prioritizing rest more in my life. This is so good. And then other times it's just easy to start thinking, no, I have a I don't have as good of a worth work ethic as I had back then, and I am using like these excuses to get out of working as hard as I should or hustling as hard as I should or whatever. So I think that's that's just a balance, I guess, that each individual person has to find. And it's not something that like outside people could judge people on. Um that's not fair to see somebody in like how they function in life and be like, oh, they're not doing enough work. You don't know enough about them to to say that. Um, but I do that to myself all the time.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah. So and I'd imagine, and I can relate to that in my own way as well. I'd imagine that for both of us, it's we're it's both of those things at different times. Like sometimes I'm sure, like I know for myself, sometimes I'm like, yeah, this is this is good balance. I'm prioritizing rest, especially knowing that if I rest now and listen to my body, I will be able to come back stronger tomorrow and I'll be more productive than I would have been today if I did it too, if I did it tired. Um, and then other times where I'm like, okay, I've been resting for most of the day and and yesterday. And I'm like, okay, now we're dipping into you're trying to find motivation to do the thing when we know that motivation typically follows behavior. So uh it's a little bit of both. Depending on the day. Yeah. Yeah. It can be a tricky balance though.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

It can be. Um, I do think back to your YouTube video that you did with Sienna on our channel. So if anybody wants to go check that out, it's not a podcast. It's before we launched our podcast, but it's a really great video where Evan and our friend Sienna were talking about um kind of going through life in like rhythms as opposed to routines flowing throughout your day. So that's a bit off topic from the topic of this podcast, but very relevant to what we were just talking about. If you guys want to check that out. We're gonna go back, come back to that topic of like um, um, I don't want to give too much away, but you know, like I'm thinking of a little treat, using a little treat as an example for when you're like, I deserve this, and kind of somewhat low-key alluding to mental health. Um, and when is that appropriate and when is it not? So we're gonna go back to that that whole topic of using mental health terms to justify things. I guess

Therapy

SPEAKER_03 23:15

that's a good way to describe it. But for now, I wanted to get into the topic of therapy itself, since that's yeah, kind of the center of like the mental health world and the center of your life right now. Literally the center of my world right now. Um, and I wanted to introduce this portion of our discussion with actually sharing a video from Max, who, like I said before, unfortunately could not be here, but did want to have a little um did want to put his voice in the conversation. So we're trying something new on the podcast, which is screen sharing. Um, and hopefully this will work and Evan will be able to hear what I'm about to uh play. Can you see my screen yet? No, I can't. Okay. All right. So I got a little message that said I have to quit Google Chrome in order to change the permissions. I should have done this before. So we're gonna go to plan B and I'm gonna pull up the video on my phone and play it into my microphone and show you that way. Oof, okay. All right, let's see, let's see. Let me know if you can hear this.

SPEAKER_05 24:30

Hey, y'all, couldn't make it to the podcast today, but let me share this. Um, the first thing for me that was kind of difficult about therapy, and this is hopefully not too daunting, but for me trying to get started, I had a hard time finding the right person. I did a lot of looking around, being on calls with people, thinking maybe this would be a good fit, uh, and then being like, oh, maybe not. Uh eventually, even finding one person who helped me out for a few sessions. And I eventually got to a point where I was like, maybe not exactly what I need anymore. Like I can only push so far. So I had to do a bit of exploring before I could find someone who really knew how to work with me and could work with a lot of baseline assumptions I had. So sometimes I guess you have to expect that. It's not just like a magic fix, like, oh, we've got the perfect person for you. The other thing that was difficult was just having to make the mental adjustment of not just, oh, I'm here to pay for a free space to rant about what's going on in my life, but actually taking the coping strategies that I learned about during those sessions and putting in the effort to apply them in my real life and having to carry those lessons with me when life actually did get difficult, when problems did arise. Um, obviously that's kind of the point of it, but yeah, that wasn't easy per se.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

Perfect. That was really clear. Yes, perfect, amazing. And I'll edit it on screen so our viewers will actually be able to see him. Okay. But yeah, any thoughts about what he said? You know, he's sharing two experiences, just having the difficulty of finding someone, but then also this concept of realizing he needed to actually put in the work outside of therapy, not just go rant. Yeah, immediate

Finding the right therapist fit

SPEAKER_03 26:11

thoughts based on what yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Firstly, yeah, finding a therapist can be like shopping around. Like people say like speed dating almost. I've had my own experience with that, you know. I mean, I've had multiple therapists. I had I had different therapists, at least four therapists when I was an undergrad for the four years that I was there, basically. Um and then I had uh online once I graduated, I had a telehealth therapist specifically to help treat my diagnosed OCD. Um, so it was on the platform nocd.com. I had a no cd therapist. And then I now have a new one now that I'm at, you know, I'm in university in California, and it's both telehealth and I can go in person as well. So it can be really challenging, and there are many factors that go into why someone may not be a good fit, because I know that's said often, but it may be a bit ambiguous. Like, what does that even mean? And so it's just off-rip what's coming to mind. And sometimes it's not even it's it can go both ways, where a client may not be the best fit for the therapist, and the therapist may not be the best fit for the client. In the client's case, it may be things like this person's political stance bleeds into their personal work and yeah, it bleeds into the work with the client, and the person may feel unsafe, or they may feel like the person doesn't fully understand them, and that may cause some friction. That's a very real thing. Um, it might also be that based on a person's cultural background, that something about that may feel like, oh, there's a mismatch. Um, that might be something there. Um, other things on the flip side of that with the therapist and the client, um maybe the the client is presenting with issues that the therapist isn't particularly familiar in treating, you know. So, and that's a very real thing. It's like, oh no, I think I should refer you to this therapist because this is their specialty, and I think that you can get more targeted support from this therapist. Um, so yeah, it really depends on what the client is presenting with in session. And other times, other times it really could just be the energy between you two. Like you feel like it's like you can't, you know, sometimes it's not even as comp complex. It's like yeah, uh personalities.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

I haven't had much experience with therapy. I did get a therapist like a few years back. Um, and I think it was a little bit of that. We didn't like there wasn't bad energy or anything. Right. I just didn't feel like we really clicked. I didn't feel like I could really open up. I I I don't know what it was, but yeah, we just didn't get that that click. But then I've talked to people who are like, oh my gosh, I love my therapist. She's so helpful. Like, had her for years. I haven't really had that experience. Currently, I don't feel the need for therapy, but I hope that if that does arise in the future, I'm like, I could, I could use this right now. Hopefully, I'll be able to get that click that yeah, some people experience.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

It's more rare. I'd say that I definitely click with my current therapist in a way I haven't clicked with my other like past like five therapists. Yeah. So and it's just, it just clicked. The vibe was there. And the research also shows that the what the what's the word? The most significant factor that plays into a client's growth in therapy is more about the therapeutic relationship than the specific techniques that are being used. So at the end of the day, a therapist could be highly technical and they could be using really good evidence-based treatment um approaches with the client. But if the relationship just isn't there, that it's very unlikely that that client, it will slow that client's progress. And chances, chances are both people will feel stuck in the relationship. Why do you think that is? I think because I don't know what the research says specifically on why, but I would imagine that it comes down to the fact that we're relational beings. Yeah. So it's like again, it's in the same way that someone could be let's let me see. It's not just about being quote unquote good at your job. You know, there are the skills, there's your knowledge that you have, and then there's your ability to connect with the person in front of you. And sometimes from my perspective, I think sometimes either that's there or it's not. Of course, there are things that someone can do to kind of build on that and to improve their ability to relate, but you can't deny that there are just some people, specifically therapists and non-therapists, some people who just have that thing where they connect with others so easily and so well that that person automatically makes you feel seen and important. And that is a gift, if you ask me.

How therapists keep clients accountable

SPEAKER_01 31:18

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Going into kind of the other thing Max was talking about, um, but also holding on to this thread of like therapist-client relationship, where he was saying that he realized, you know, he needs to actually put in the work outside of therapy, put like practice the tools that were given to him from a therapist's point of view. What do therapists typically do to try to encourage people to bring what they've learned inside of therapy, outside of therapy? How do you keep people accountable, like as their therapist?

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Yeah, well, I know many therapists do give homework. It depends on the on the therapist. Um so for instance, that homework could look like actual worksheets, specifically in an approach called cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT. Very popular. It's like the first modality psychology students typically learn in grad school is CBT. Um, I'm not I myself am not a strong CBT therapist. I'm more of the relational approaches. Like there's something called internal family systems, there's emotion-focused therapy, there's dialectical behavioral therapy, there's so many other things. But so for a CBT therapist, it may look like, okay, here's your worksheet. I want you to go out, and when you go home, I want you to do these specific prompts. You can journal it, whatever, bring it back. I might do that with a client. I rarely do. Yeah. And it's mainly because I know people's lives are so busy outside of just people have busy lives, and I don't want to give them something else that's gonna just add to their cognitive load. Where it's like, I don't want it to become something else that they think they need to check off, especially for my hype, my overperforming clients who feel like, yes, I'm doing therapy well. I'm getting my homework done. I'm like, no, see, this is part of your problem that we're unpacking. This need to be highly productive. I'm not giving you homework, actually.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

So not doing homework is your homework.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

That's your homework. Your homework is to not do any of that. But I would say, and then there are those of us um who give therapists challenges. We we would frame it as like, here's your challenge for the week, or here's your behavioral experiment for the week. Like, for instance, just with a client that I saw this week, um, we discussed them going home, especially because they struggle with depression. So we discussed them going home and cleaning specifically one side of their bed. They have a lot of stuff on the ground, they have clothes everywhere, and they said, Okay, I want to clean my room. We're like, okay, let's step back. That's a big task. There's a lot, there's a lot of things going on in your room. Focus on this tiny part on the left side of your bed. That's your goal. If you complete that and you have it in you and you're like, oh, now I'm already motivated to clean other things. Perfect, but that's not, that's not the goal. So that's one way that I try to incorporate um tiny tasks, you know? Yeah. And I know that's a very that's a smaller example, but it's it's a very tangible example again for people who may be struggling with follow-through and depression for many reasons.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

Yeah. Um, yeah, I think that's I like that strategy, like the sound of it, um, being able to have that side of satisfaction of checking off a task and not making it too overwhelming for the people. Um, I'd be interested in like continuing this line of thought um and like exploring how does somebody, you know, then bring these tools they've learned in therapy, continue improving them in their life, and then maybe get to the point of maybe leaving therapy if

How have you seen therapy being misused?

SPEAKER_03 35:09

it's time for that. But before we get to that, just overall, um, what are your thoughts on maybe how therap how you've seen therapy being misused in current times? Just like the general um discussion on therapy. What are you seeing? What's concerning you? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Get on your soapbox, Evan.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

I'm approaching my soapbox. My biggest, biggest pet peeve, and this is with therapists, this is this is to the therapist, the highly passive therapist. There are so many therapists who simply are not doing their job in that they are sitting in there, somebody is coming to them, and sometimes it can be someone who they've been working with for years. I'm talking like five years, ten years, whatever it might be. And when I say there it's passive therapy, you're sitting and you're validating. Wow, yeah, that sounds hard. Yeah. Tell me more about that. Wow. That is very, very common. It's so common. And that is just you're doing your client a disservice for multiple reasons. Therapy is meant to challenge you in every way. It's meant to challenge your perspective, it's meant to challenge your behaviors, your patterns, the way you interact with others. It's meant to challenge you. So if someone is sitting across from you and you're simply enabling them, they're telling you, can you believe this person did this? And instead of getting curious about, okay, well, tell me, this seems to be a pattern for you. Tell me, you know, what role may you have played in this, in this dynamic, versus being like, oh my gosh, they said that. Oh, yeah, they, oh my gosh, like that sounds so annoying. There are therapists who do that.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Yeah, like talking to a friend.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yeah. And it's like, I'm all for the dynamic of, you know, feeling friendly with your clients. And I I myself, I'd say that I'm that kind of therapist, but it's very much mixed in with being able to challenge them, hold them accountable. And so that's my biggest, that's my biggest pet peeve. It's the passive therapist who will sit and listen and listen. And that's exactly why therapy, I've heard the perspective that of why would I go to therapy if I could just talk to my friend? And I'm like, well, yeah, if your experience has just been, whoa, girl, yeah, or yeah, man, that, you know, if that's been your experience, of course you're gonna think, why should I go to therapy? I could talk to my friend. That's why I said I blame the therapist, not the client. Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

And they're the person obviously like holding

What to do when you aren’t feeling challenged in therapy

SPEAKER_03 38:01

more of the power in the situation. Um so I guess that would kind of go back into like finding the right fit, finding the right therapist. So would you say to anybody listening to this podcast right now who is going to therapy or is interested in going to therapy, um, would your advice be to look for whether or not they're feeling challenged in therapy as a sign of whether they're with the right person? Absolutely, Darcy.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

If you are in therapy, yeah, you're right. If you're working with the therapist and you've been working with them for a little while, it may be, let's say, a month or a few months, even. It doesn't, you don't have to wait that long. Because a therapist can, I mean, at least the way that my supervisor even trains myself and my peers, you know, she tells us right out the bat, establish what your style of therapy is with the client so they know right away.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Um, that this is, you know, just giving you a heads up. I would tell my clients, gonna be upfront with you. My style of therapy is more direct and that might create some discomfort, but it's for your benefit and it's because I'm doing my job in challenging you, along with validating where it's due. Right. And so, yeah. So that's why I say it doesn't have to take years to realize, it doesn't even have to take that many months to know if this therapist is going to help you. And I will also say, though, to put some of the accountability on the client, if you are working with a therapist and you realize they're being highly passive, it is also your responsibility because therapy is a two-way street.

SPEAKER_04 39:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

There are roles, there are, you know, the responsibility is on both to an extent. So I would encourage the client to also say it to your therapist, you know, I would appreciate if you could challenge me a bit more in, you know, I feel like I'm not being as challenged. And I want to, I want to know if we can talk about that, what might be creating that dynamic between us. Might be a scary thing because of the power differences in the room, but I do encourage it and it can be really helpful.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Yeah. Speaking from like part my personal perspective, I know that one aspect of my character, or not, I don't know if character is the right word, but one aspect of my personality hates being confronted. Uh, and like I know that, but I know confrontation is good for me too. I know critique is good for me. Like, just being an artist, you know, in the art world professionally, it's important to be open to critique. So I have this mindset of like, I know critique is difficult for me, but I also want it. But like, if you're about to critique me, just know that I might cry, but that's okay. And like that happens too on like a personal level. Like, I have there's people in my life that I know will be direct with me and will like ask me maybe the question I don't really want them to ask me. Um, but even though in the moment I'm like, like taking deep breaths, wiping away tears, I'm like, this is good for me. It's okay, it's okay. So that is really difficult. But I think you're right. That's a good thing. Like allowing ourselves to be challenged. Like, if you're in therapy, you're wanting that, I mean, that money. I don't know, you know, how good your insurance is, but like you're wanting that money to be worth it, that time exactly worth it. Um so you should be willing to do what you should do so that therapy can work as it's supposed to work. Correct. Therapy can serve

Is therapy used as a band-aid?

SPEAKER_03 41:34

its purpose. Right. Right. Yeah. Do you think people see therapy? So we live in a time where therapy is very like, I guess, normalized and very accepted, which is really good. Um, because I know people can think back to a time where it wasn't, it was very like stigmatized. And if you went to therapy, it was like, what's wrong with you? Um, so I'm glad that we're not there anymore. But also, there's downsides to everything we as people, I think just aren't great with balance. We aren't good with like keeping the pendulum in the center. It typically swings back and forth, and that's about all we get. Um, oh, where was I going with that?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Um is it trendy?

SPEAKER_03 42:21

Is it is it or is it like treated as a band-aid? Is it is it treated as something to make people feel good about themselves, um, but doesn't actually do anything.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Uh it's like certainly can be.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

Yeah, in the overall like land social media landscape, let's say, let's just like bring it to social media. What you're seeing on there, do you feel like it is more often used as a band-aid?

SPEAKER_01 42:49

I would say that I've seen many instances where it's just flung around, like, I'm in therapy. Are you in therapy? I'm doing therapy, like, whoa, I'm in therapy. And you know, sometimes therapists may even hear their clients say it. You hear them come into their room, and it's almost like they use it to sit on their high horse and be like, Well, I'm in therapy. And so they need to get in here. And it's like, oh, right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Like, yeah, in this situation, I'm the one who's in the right because I'm clearly doing the work right now.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

And this other person doesn't right, yes. Right. And and in that, it's this assumption, which you and I have talked about, is this assumption that simply showing up to therapy is doing the work. It's like, okay, well, it was the first step. You walked through the door, congrats, you made it into therapy. Yes. Now that you're here, we therapy actual therapy needs to take place. Yeah. And that that involves you being a very active participant in your own change, in your own healing. We are not magicians. Therapists cannot make changes for you. We are here to support you like a coach, a loving coach that is going to help you increase your awareness and again encourage just. Curiosity towards yourself and towards others rather than um being judgmental towards yourself and others. You get curious. And so yeah, it absolutely can be used as a band-aid for those who think that just going in is some

How to be an active participant in therapy

SPEAKER_01 44:12

is something. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Who would you say, well, first, um you said people need to uh like be active participants? Be active participants. What does that look like? So one example you gave earlier was like, you know, if you're just being aware of the therapist and whether or not they're challenging you, being willing to maybe ask for that challenge if you're not feeling that. What else do you think people should be bringing to therapy um in order to get the most out of it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

The biggest thing, the most intangible thing that I think clients should bring into therapy is a level of openness to stay open, open to discomfort, open to praise, even or encouragement. You want to stay open so that because it you have to stay open to that to be able to increase your awareness. You have to be open to understand where you may be, um, where you may be in the wrong in certain situations. Um also being open to under yeah, also being open to see that, or in the cases where you're being manipulated, and maybe this isn't something you realize, but you know, so it goes both ways. So I that's why I said curiosity. At first, I used to think that people who are meant for therapy are people who are willing to come and do the work, but even before that, having spoken to a colleague of mine that I really respect, they're saying that even before that, it's curiosity. You have to come in with a level of curiosity to really wonder, huh, why? Where does that come from? How does that feel when I sit with that? And that is a that is part of doing the work. Part of doing the work is realizing, being open to feedback, being open to feedback and being able to consider feedback, think on it and think, huh, that feels I'm feeling something that just hit something. Get curious. Where have I felt that before? Where in my childhood? What's my earliest memory of that? Where do I feel it in my body? When do I know that? What are my triggers? It's being able, it that's what I mean when you're being active. You're actively participating in the session.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

I would imagine that takes working through fear to be able to do that. Because those are things, again, like you said, people don't like being uncomfortable and it sucks. That's like fear connected, being being scared to be uncomfortable, being scared to open these boxes in yourself that you would rather keep closed sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Yeah. Especially, especially for people as let's say if we're talking about actual trauma, if we're talking about actual trauma that people have from childhood, for instance, many times being vulnerable was never wasn't safe. So they never practiced vulnerability. They never practiced it. It was never, they never had a space where it was okay to do that. So they have to unlearn that pattern now as an adult to be able to be open and vulnerable. They have to remind themselves that if they are, in fact, in a safe space now, reminding your body, yourself that you are this is you're safe now. You're not in any danger. Of course, there's so many ways to do that. Tapping is one way if you're talking about EMDR and all these different things, but yeah. So sometimes it's that it was never safe, and they have to now remind themselves that they are. So it's yeah, I have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

In a nutshell, sorry, say say that one more time.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

No, I was saying that that's something that I definitely wanted to mention.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

Yes. Um, so in a nutshell, I feel like it's it's appropriate to say therapy is often seen as like the thing, like the end point of the journey. It's the it's the destination. But it's not the destination. Therapy is opening a whole new journey for yourself. And you have to bring your whole self, your, you have to bring your grit, your um personal accountability, and just like you said, willingness to be open into it to be able to get that full experience.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yes. Yes, that's a good way to put it, the full experience.

When is it time to leave therapy?

SPEAKER_03 48:29

Yeah, the full experience. So now the question that I think remains for me when it comes to approaching therapy in the appropriate way is would there is there generally a time when people should end therapy? Like your average person like goes to therapy to maybe unpack some things. Um, I mean, I know that it's so hard to speak vaguely about this because I know there's so many different experiences, but I guess what would you say about knowing when it's time to quit therapy? Um, or is it appropriate to, as a generally like mentally healthy person, to just continue therapy indefinitely? Um what are your thoughts about that and and ending therapy?

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Yeah. So it really depends on one, the therapist modality that they're using. So it's simply the approach that they're using to targeting the client's challenges, their issues. It also then depends on the client's goals. So for instance, for a client with a CBT therapist, CBT is very manualized, it's very structured. Session one, you do this, session two, you do this, three, four, five, six. After, and that's more that's brief therapy. So it's like, okay, after 12 sessions, you're gonna graduate, you're gonna move on, depending on the goal. Like I said, I am not a CBT therapist, but CBT is can be very helpful for certain types of clients. Then you have clients. I mean, then you may be coming from what we call psychodynamic. And I am more psychodynamic internally, internal family systems, which means that it's more relational. It focuses very much on the relationship. And so that may also, that would also impact a client's goals. So they may be in therapy much, much longer, much longer. So it really depends on those two factors. And then uh, but I would also I would say generally speaking, very generally speaking, if you get to a point where it seems like a client is they're increasing their resilience, they're increasing their awareness, their ability to experience a stressor, know how to feel it, problem solve it, sit with it, reflect, and move. They're moving. They're they're getting stuck less and less and less. That's how you know, okay, you've reached a point where you've gotten to a point where you can do this independently. You've gotten so much stronger since you've been in here. You have flexed your tools, you flex these muscles now so much, you don't you no longer need me here. The door is always open, which is why when you have people who stay in therapy for years, including myself, it's not that that you necessarily you've been in therapy once a week for eight years. Right. Yeah, of course. So it's like, oh, you were in therapy maybe consistently for three months, and then here and there, once you graduate, you come back for what we call booster sessions. So maybe now you come like I see my therapist like every three months, maybe now. Um, just for, you know, little touch up. I'm feeling, you know, or if you have a new stressor, if you're in a new life transition. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

And that's I would just I would imagine that's pretty much on the therapist to be able, like a good therapist to be able to direct you and feel when you need to have um a lower amount of sessions within a year, or when it might be time for you to to leave and take a break. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Yeah. Many people don't like it. Many clients, they kind of panic. Yeah. When when we have to say, so we've been seeing each other.

SPEAKER_04 52:10

They're like, I'm breaking up with me out.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

So like they're breaking up with me. Yeah. And it's like, no, queen, you're just better. This is good. This is good. It's good that you need to see me less. Love seeing your face every week, every two weeks, every month. And that's how we do it. We taper off. So if they were once a week, then we'll do bi-weekly, then once a month, then once every two months. And then it's like, okay, now we're gonna set you free. Fly. Yeah, use your tools. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

Okay, cool. So that was really I loved learning about that. Um, like I've I've you know mentioned a little bit, I don't have that much experience with therapy. Um, again, I wish that it had worked out for some other people to be in this podcast with us. I know. Um, who might be able to speak about that being on the other side of things a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

We could have more of these conversations. For sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 52:57

And we, you know, we talked about how Evan is like our wellness archetype. Um, but again, since she's busy with grad school, we haven't been able to have that particular voice as much in these episodes. So we there's so much more room for talking about everything therapy, everything wellness, like all that stuff. And I'm very excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Um thankfully I'll have more time now that I have fewer classes. I'm def I'm hitting a lot of milestones. So I may be able to be more active on Pasha Fruit.

SPEAKER_03 53:22

That'll be fantastic. We will love that so much. Um, so let me uh revisit my notes real quick. Um I wrote a bunch of things on here, probably more than we'll be able to tackle. So I'm just trying to figure out where

How to maintain what you learned in therapy

SPEAKER_03 53:36

I want to jump to. Um okay, so to bookend our conversation about therapy, um, before we get into what I would maybe not a game, but I almost want to see the next thing as a game. So maybe I think the more fun part of this episode. Um, but not that this isn't fun, but you know what I mean, a little bit more light. Lighter function. Lighter. Um but yeah, just to book in our our discussion on therapy. So we've talked about like finding the right therapist, we've talked about bringing the right tools to therapy and also being on the lookout for just, you know, making sure that this therapist is really going to challenge you and and be the best in, I guess, influence for you in that area of your life. And then also we talked about when it might be time to leave therapy. So when you have left therapy, when you're leaving therapy, you're like, no, don't send me away. What do I do now? What I'm gonna be lost without you. Like, what would your advice be to people who want to make sure they're able to continue, like keep up those practices, those, those tools that they learned in therapy? Just I guess general accountability advice. What would what would you say to that?

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Account wait, so it sounds like you're asking me two questions. Am I are you asking me about the fear people have in leaving or how to maintain the work? How to maintain, yeah. Okay, okay. How to maintain. Well, the the good thing about it is that for many clients, if you've been in therapy, in good therapy for long for long enough, that you know, it's a process of creating new patterns. So, you know, some people, I've had clients who say, Well, what's gonna happen when I'm trying to, let's say, I'm trying to make a new friend, and I know like based on my past way of doing it, I jump into things too quickly and then I mess it up. It's like I remind clients that, yeah, that version of you was then. You're this is a new version of you now. You don't even operate, that's not even your automatic um process anymore. You've gained more intentionality, you've built the muscle of intentionality. So, you know, and you've increased your awareness and things. So chances are you don't really need to fear doing things how you used to do them because you've you're creating new pathways in your brain now. And so it's that is kind of like something to think about. It it's more a more hopeful way to look at it. Now, in terms of holding your, and that that goes into holding yourself accountable. Again, if you have challenged negative core beliefs that you have, if you have understood, if you understand your triggers of when you become defensive, if you know um, let's say the types of situations that may not bring out the best in you or haven't in the past, you know, if you're aware of that, then moving forward, it's a way for you to let's say what do I want to say? I'm basically trying to say that awareness goes a long way. And so if you've built the self-awareness, you're already halfway there. Yeah. And so, you know, without the awareness, the accountability isn't possible. So I would say that if you've yeah, if you've worked on that skill of self-awareness, and by that I mean being aware of um your motivations for acting and things like that, that's a that's a perfect way to hold yourself accountable because now you know better. So now you do better. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

Know better, do better. Yeah. That's a I think that's a good note to end on for the therapy discussion. But like we said, I'm sure we'll talk, we'll have plenty of room to talk about that whole

When mental health gets trendy

SPEAKER_03 57:32

topic in other podcast episodes. Um, so now we're gonna get into what I said earlier. I kind of see as a little game, but it it totally could get we we'll have some serious like mental health talk, I'm sure, in this cut too. But basically, Evan, what I would like to do is I have a list of some trendy mental health terms that I want to throw your way and get your thoughts on um, like what is the what was the initial intention? What like what is this concept supposed to be saying and what is the healthy meaning of it? Um how can it actually help people? But then also how has it been been watered down? And in consequence of that, what are the negative effects you see that causing? Um so we're gonna start the section off with another little call-in from a Passion Fruit. Um we have Mel on the line, except she's not on the line because it's a pre-recorded message like Max's was. Um, Mel is again one of the members of Passion Fruit, but she recently gave birth to twins, um, I think like four months ago. And so the reason she's not in this podcast episode is just because, first of all, she lives in Australia, so the time zones are always difficult. And then she's also now dealing with like two babies uh two like sleep schedules, and yes, being a mom, which is so much work. Oh my goodness. I want to be a mom someday, but I'm not I'm not there now.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

Hopefully, nowhere's nowhere near now.

SPEAKER_03 59:04

Literally, so far away. Literally. So, anyways, we're sending you love, Mel. I'm sh if you're listening to this episode, I'm sure you will at some point. So, Mel, we miss you. And thank you for sending in this question for

“Triggered” and “Trauma”

SPEAKER_03 59:16

Evan. And I will go ahead and play it for you.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Hey guys, I wish I could be in the conversation today, but for the benefit of those listening, I have actually recently become a new mum, so I'm not able to participate in the podcasts that actively just yet. Um, but I did want to send in a question for Evan because I love this topic and there's just something that's been on my mind. So the question that I have for Evan is I'm on social media, I'm reading books, I'm like just listening to kind of popular discourse, right? And terms like triggered and trauma pop up a lot. Now, as someone who is four months postpartum, there are days where everything feels overwhelming, I'm like just wanting to tap out, I'm emotional, it's just it's not it, you know, it's hard. And I'm tempted to use terms like I'm so triggered right now, or like this is like borderline traumatic, when it's really not, right? Those terms are clinical ones, and yet we often use them in like a really casual way. And I'm just wondering, like, what are the risks of using this clinical language for just normal human experiences? And what is the alternative? Like, is there a better way to move through difficult experiences without pathologizing everything? Would be curious to hear your thoughts on it. Hmm. Starting off with such a good one.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:35

The words and trauma. Tarting off. We're getting right in trauma. Trigger and trauma. All right, oven. So yeah, I thought this would be a good way to start off this section because it is kind of a section of using this language that has been watered down. And yes, the words triggered trauma, they're some of the most perfect examples of using clinical language, as she said, like their therapy language. Um, and obviously people use them all the time. So please get on your soapbox again. Um, what are your thoughts on the usage of these words?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

Yeah. So, I mean, specifically, let's think about what is a trigger. So a trigger means that there is some external stimulus that is activating something in you because it's reminding you of something that's already occurred in your past, basically. That's that's that's a definition on the fly. Um that was a good one. So yeah, I was like, oh, okay, that wasn't so bad. Yeah. Um, but yeah, because it's like when something's triggered, it means it's activating you. You're activated now. Uh, it could be a sound, it could be a smell that triggers some past things. Sometimes people get triggered because and they don't even know why they're triggered. They don't know the root of it. Of course, therapy can help. Um, but yeah, it's something that lights up your nervous system. And either you know where it's coming from, you know what it is, and so you know, you know where what it means and you can move forward, or it happens and you kind of panic because you're like, I don't know what's going on, but this is really triggering me. So it's not that people aren't necessarily being triggered. Um, again, if especially if you think of it as just your system being activated. Um so I wouldn't say that that one maybe is one that I'm too mad at. It's more the trauma that I'm mad at.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:33

But real quick on the the word triggered though, what do you think people are using that word typically as these days? Like what I what I'm seeing is um like if somebody, if something annoys somebody, you know, like if something gets under somebody's skin, I feel like we've started to use the word triggered for that too, which doesn't sound like your definition. Fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

Um let me think. If someone just feels kind of annoyed by something, I mean, again, if we think about this, that being what okay, a trigger falls on the spectrum. So something may lightly activate you, something else may be more intense. So I wouldn't say that, like if there's a particular person that really, really grinds your gears, you're like, there's something about this person's personality. Oh my gosh, I I can't. It's really, it's really triggering. In that instance, I think um, what at least some people, I don't know if many people, but I think what some people simply mean is that maybe this person reminds me of their ex. That is valid. That's a trigger. Yeah, yeah. It's like this person really reminds me of my of my of my mom. Yeah. This person really reminds me of my sister. Oh my gosh, she triggers me. You know, that makes sense. Now, if you're saying, I'm trying to think of a more lighter example. Like, do you have a lighter example in mind? Um triggered. Um, you know, like, oh, like it's something like people throw around. Sometimes as a joke, people will be like, oh my gosh, having to write this essay or having to read this discussion post is like the PTSD. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

Give me PTSD. Yeah. Yeah, people, that's right. I think, and maybe that's why it's become words like this, PTSD triggered trauma, because it's become memeified on the internet. And so maybe that's the whole reason why now it's just in our everyday language. Yeah. So what do you think? What is the harm of doing that? And if you wanted to say more too about the word trauma, because you know we're about to get into it and I stopped you, but yeah, what is the harm of doing that?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

First, I'll say I'll talk a little bit on trauma and then I'll say the harm. So, trauma is 1000% being thrown around so heavily these days. Um, there are obviously people who have genuine trauma, and then there are others where it's like, is that trauma or was that just a difficult experience? So I also want to be clear that something can be a traumatic event, like giving birth to twins or giving birth, period, is a very traumatic experience to your body. Yeah. Now, whether or not someone has long-lasting trauma from the traumatic event is a different story. Another example, for instance, someone may have gotten a gotten into a horrific car accident. That does not necessarily mean that that's something that's going to create a long-term impact on that person where they now they have this fear of driving where they get intense panic attacks. They have to pull over on the side of the road. Um, they they even just looking at cars can make them feel really anxious. That's like, okay, it sounds like there's some, there's a little bit of trauma there. Yeah. You know, that's a that's an abnormal um well, I don't want to use the word abnormal. That is a very, it sounds like you're being highly activated by that experience. Um, versus another person who that happened to them and us hearing it on the outside, and therapists are we're. Are guilty of this sometimes too. We have sometimes we have an idea of what we think the type of trauma that someone should have based on something they tell us, like someone being held at gunpoint, traumatic experience, but them saying, you know, no, I don't fear going to that place, or you know, no, I don't because they don't have long-lasting trauma from the traumatic event. And I think so. I think that's one distinction that people believe that a traumatic event must mean that they went, they have long-standing trauma. No, right. You probably not always. Now, wait, did you have a question on that specifically or a comment? Um, it sounds like you were gonna say something. No, I think my gears are just

Self-diagnosing

SPEAKER_01 1:06:37

turning in my head. Okay, I don't have a specific okay. So the harm, the of course, the harm in even things that I'm seeing online is everybody thinks that they're autistic. Everybody thinks that they have ADHD. Yes. Everybody, everybody says, oh my gosh, yes, this one's autistic. Oh my gosh, it's my OCD, it's my autism. Like, girl, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, you are probably not neurodivergent. It's also not something people who are neurodivergent, genuinely, I am speaking from experience, genuinely, it's not a quirky personality trait that you love. It's not that we hate being neurodivergent at all. You have love for it, you, you accept it, but it's not a little thing you wear and you put on. Oh my gosh, quirky, cool, cute. Yeah. And that grinds my gears because what it does is it minimizes the experience of people who are actually experiencing very real challenges in their everyday life. Very real sensory challenges, very real relational challenges that if you were to ask many people, married neurodivergent people, they would say, Yeah, that's something that I would really like to give up if I could. Like, that's not something I would want to have. This obsession, the level of anxiety can cause me all these different things. It's not a quirky trait we we'd like to try on. Yeah. So I'm getting really ups. I'm getting activated talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. It it minimizes people's experiences and it it gives people a, like you said, a watered-down understanding of people's very real challenging experiences.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:25

And so it minimizes people's experience people's experiences. Do you feel like it also gets in the way of people being diagnosed, or like does it get in the way in some sense in the actual clinical world where these things are like being researched and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

Um well, of course there are just some, well, there's the challenge of kind of like Mel was saying, over pathologizing and also not taking it seriously enough. Yeah. Like thinking, and and one example of that is let's say that a clinician has a kid. Actually, let's say a clinician is neurodivergent, and then they have a kid who's neurodivergent. So by that I mean ADHD or autism. And let's say that they themselves have never really fully been tested. And so they think that there's a lot of how the way that they act that's just typical. So they may say, oh, the fact that your child is spinning and spinning for an hour each day, like I did that too. That's normal. I grew up in that. I grew up like everybody does that. And we're thinking, an hour. No, no, pacing, pacing for two hours. That's not, that's not typical behavior. And so that can be a blind spot, especially again, it's very common in parents. We even see it in parents when I'm working with parents and their kid. They'll come and be like, Yeah, but I did that. I'm like, yeah, you should probably also get tested. Um, so that's one way it can get in the way is that you it makes you miss very real characteristics of neurodivergence. Um, and then the flip side of that is over pathologizing, which is something that I genuinely feel stuck with sometimes as a clinician. When I have a client come to me and they tell me how they're so overwhelmed, and then they list off all these very real stressors. I'm like, no, that's a healthy response to what's going on. That's not it. That's I struggle to diagnose that. Like, of course you're gonna feel of course you feel this down and low motivation. Like you're this, your your dad just died, and you have this illness, you're a caretaker, all these things are happening. You're a caregiver, I mean. And I'm like, yeah, is that depression or is this a very normal response?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

That's so true. It does can be challenging. Yeah, that does sound very challenging. But that's a that's a field thing, that's a psychology thing that we it's a very common discussion in the field where people are like, what's really the diagnosis? What's really just like a normal reaction to life that's very crazy, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:09

Yeah, very interesting. And I mean, at the like, I think everybody is just trying to get them to know themselves and like this tendency to kind of self-direct autism or 80s. Right. We all want to understand ourselves, we want to give ourselves labels to hopefully be able to move forward with something or have an explanation. And identify. Yeah, yeah. And not sometimes to identify, right? Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I understand, I understand why people do it, but I can also totally see the harm and especially the harm that comes from just like minimizing and watering down other people's experiences who do genuinely go through that thing. Um I think we could all, I think we could all really benefit from just not listening to everything we hear on social media. Right. That's across the board.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:57

Another thing like that is what can be challenging, for instance, is if you see a TikTok, and I I'm not trying to, you know, what's the word? Like berate. Is that the word? Berate, yeah. Yeah, I'm not trying to berate these specific creators, especially if they do have a space in the mental health field and it's a way of trying to educate. So I do believe they're coming from a good place. However, it can also be harmful, especially because the average consumer is not as thoughtful as you'd hope them to be. The average consumer just isn't. So when you have these six, six signs that show that you could have ADHD. Oh, you walk into a room and you say, What did I come here for? Like people are like, oh my gosh, bad ADHD. Sometimes I also feel like I have brain fog. Oh my gosh. And it's like, okay, now you have this six list checklist to be like, you have ADHD. You know? Of course, it takes a very thoughtful consumer to know, okay, that that that's not what they're really trying to say here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:04

So we've been we've been trained into mindless consumption,

“A little treat”

SPEAKER_03 1:13:09

and that's another that's another conversation. But yeah, it is. Um, I'm gonna go to the next one. So that was more of, I guess, an overview in general of like this this concept of using mental health terms and watering them down. So we're gonna look at some, and when I say mental health terms, you they could be actual like therapy terms, like triggered and trauma, or they could just be like mental health adjacent terms. Um, like, for example, what I mentioned earlier, the term or the phrase, I deserve a little treat, right? Like little treat culture. I think I see this as mental health adjacent because it's kind of appealing to like self-care and just being kind to yourself. Um and so free when you see this being used, like are you are you concerned by this? Do you feel like this is just giving excuses for maybe participating in like unhealthy things that you don't really need in excess, right? Because yeah, I think the core of this, a little treat, goes a long way sometimes in actually boosting your mood. But yeah, do you see it being overused? Are you concerned by that?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

When you say little treat, I've seen mostly, I don't know if this is what you mean, but I mostly hear like I deserve a sweet treat. Is it like not as a treat kind of thing?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:27

Probably, yes. I think the most, it's mostly associated with food. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, a sweet treat.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

Yeah, like any other like a little sweet treat or any little retail therapy.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:36

Okay, yes, yes. And it often has to do with buying things, right? So buying a sweet treat, buying clothes. Um, we use again, I think it it again functions as a band-aid instead of addressing the root issues. So, I mean, I think we can all agree, like, yes, obviously this can go too far. Um what would be your advice as the therapist to people instead of putting that band-aid on and always like resorting to that? Um, what would be your advice to somebody who does have that urge often for a little treat?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:14

When it as someone who does treat themselves to a sweet treat every day, even if it's just something in my fridge. Like I mean, you know, but I would say when it starts to creep into a the the problem of avoidance, that's when you want to tune in. And that's that awareness you were talking about earlier. The awareness. You have to have the awareness. None of this is possible without it. So I'm I'm talking within the context of someone is is self-aware at this point. They've developed the skill. And so if you realize, okay, I tell myself I'm gonna treat myself with this movie, I'm gonna treat myself with this thing, this outing, what has been happening as a consequence? Do I feel like it's a help me to achieve more balance? Where, oh, I'm not as burnt out anymore because now I've incorporated self-care, which actually shouldn't be a luxury. It should just be it's built in, really. Right. Um versus okay, now I'm telling my seaf, myself, I deserve to relax, but you're on your fourth movie of the week, and it's you you've now been avoiding your responsibilities. Yeah. So now is it a treat or is it the thing that's that's enabling you from your responsibilities?

unknown 1:16:21

Yeah.

“Crossing my boundaries”

SPEAKER_03 1:16:22

That's when I questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

Those are very good questions.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:25

Practicing awareness, asking those questions, looking at yourself. Um, all right. We're gonna go kind of fast towards it through the rest of this list. I yeah, try to go fast. Um, all right, another phrase. Uh, you're crossing my boundaries, appealing to the concept of boundaries. I know you have a lot to say about this because this is probably one of the things we talked about the most when we were having our little like back back and forth in the group chat.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

That's my boundary. Oh my gosh, you're crossing my boundary. My boundary. My boundary is that you can't do that. That's my boundary. Oh my gosh, everything's a boundary. People don't know what a boundary is.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:03

People don't please explain to us what's okay. What should what how should we be approaching boundaries?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:10

Boundaries. So, for clarification, a boundary is something that focuses on your behavior and your response. It is not meant to control someone else's behavior. People can use that to be very manipulative and very controlling, even if they're not realizing it. It is also a fast track to victimization, always viewing yourself as the victim. They keep crossing my boundary. This is my boundary. So I'll give you an example. Let's say someone wants to, someone says, okay, I think that, let's say someone has a personal belief for themselves. And I would agree that they say, okay, if in a committed relationship, we're not flirting with other people, meaning that you have this intention to engage in an inappropriate way with another person. To say to your partner, hey, you can't flirt with others. That's my boundary. My boundary is you can't flirt with other people. You're cheating. That is not a boundary. What you're saying to this person is you cannot do this because it impacts me in a certain way. What is the boundary is to say, hey, so it's my personal boundary to not engage inappropriately in that way. For me, that includes intentionally like flirting with others. That's something that I view as um disloyalty. And so if you do flirt with others, my boundary is that I will choose to leave, or I will then to X, Y, Z. It's very much focused on you. Another example is if someone says, hey, it's a personal boundary that I do not do work after 5 p.m. When I clock out, I'm done. You cannot, it is not a boundary to say, hey, so you're texting me, you are emailing me past 5 p.m., you're crossing my boundary. You can't do that. No, it's saying if you email me past 5 p.m., which you're you're entitled to your own behavior, I will simply not be responding because that's my boundary. I'm not doing that. You can do whatever you want. Yeah. So that's the biggest clarification. That was so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:10

That's a big take that away, folks.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:13

Take that. She's like, that's the sound bite.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:15

Yeah. No, for later. No 101. It's fantastic. Yeah, I do feel like people use boundaries often to try to like almost curate this environment around them where nothing can like bother them. Nothing can touch them. Right. Nothing can touch them. And that also feels like another way of avoiding accountability. It's like, it's my boundary to not have you hold me accountable for anything. Right. And it's just it's my boundary that you can't tell me what to do. Yes, right. And it just really feels like it gets in the way of relationships and like productive conversations and self-awareness that maybe even somebody else could give you. And like I don't want to, I don't want to say that you should just allow everybody, anybody and everybody to like get into your life and critique you on things. Like obviously their business. That's right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Correct. But like certain close people in your life, I feel like it's important to remain open to them to at least talk to you about, I don't know, certain behaviors or like patterns they're noticing. Um if they have your best interest. Right. If they have their yes, absolutely. Yes. And rem maintain openness to that instead of just closing off your boundaries anytime you feel confronted about something. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:33

That's a perfect one. Like that's what I said. Is it creeping into avoidance? Are you avoiding discomfort by saying, hey, that's my boundary? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:39

Oh man. Avoidance. Everybody's going to be able to do that.

“Protecting my peace” and “cutting off toxic people”

SPEAKER_03 1:20:42

It's like protecting your peace.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:43

Yes. It's like protect my peace.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:46

You know what? Perfect segue because we have another call-in from Mel about protecting your peace.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:54

So I'm gonna go ahead and play that one for you. I see this trend online of people saying things like, if someone disturbs your peace, just cut them off, or you know, get rid of toxic people in your life, all that kind of stuff. And okay, like there is obviously merit to that, and this is doable, but it's mostly doable if you're young or single and you're not married and you don't have kids yet. But as soon as you throw that into the mix, suddenly, you know, grandparents, in-laws, etc. become way more important. And maintaining the family unit is you know, it's significant. It is definitely important for the benefit of your children, etc. So when is distancing yourself from someone, you know, especially when it's family, because that can be quite difficult at times, when is it healthy? And when might it just be a form of like emotional avoidance, you know, that could create more problems in the long run. We'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:47

So this is a this is a good one. This is I this is I think this is a tough one. Um, I mean, she's brought in several words. She brought toxic, cutting people off, and then of course where it all started protecting your peace. Um, this and this is like definitely really big right now. And for good reason, there's a lot of people cutting off toxic family members that have caused them maybe trauma in their childhoods or um just had like maybe harmful parents that have patterns that affect you as the child, and they've never stopped those patterns. And so I can see where in instances like that, cutting people off, cutting people out of your life would be the healthy choice. But again, I think it is this balance where you can also see that that concept being abused and being used for uh to avoid being confronted, um, to maybe, I don't know, to take what feels like the easy way out. And I I guess I just have like, I'm like, when is it, you know, it's breaking the family relationship. I mean, if if somebody has if somebody has traumatized you when you're younger, that has already broken the family relationship. But also, like, if you are using these terms to cut people off and it's not for something as serious as that, that's also breaking the family relationship. It just feels like a very high-stakes um topic. So I'll I'll let you say some words on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:11

Yeah. Um wait, because I have multiple things now. Is it is it the toxic part? Is it the protecting your peace? Is it cutting off?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:20

Cutting off. I think I think it's the whole, I think it's cutting off as the broad topic. Cutting off. Okay. I think that is the overall topic in this, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:29

Correct. Okay. Yeah, I'm glad you made the distinction earlier because I would agree. If if you are currently actively in danger, meaning somebody is causing you harm physically or emotionally abusive, manipulative, you know, again, you feel you literally feel unsafe that this person you are, they can harm you. Absolutely, you deserve to set that boundary for yourself to be like, I am not going to engage, I'm disengaging. I'm disengaging. Um, because you're unhealthy, you're an unhealthy person for me. And you've proven that time and time again. Now, you're now on the opposite side of that, when people talk about cutting people off, yes, generally speaking, it is a form of avoidance and it is a lack of accountability. So we can focus more on that. Um I would say if a client came to me and I noticed that they have this pattern of cutting people off, like, yeah, I was done. I couldn't do that. I'm done. Cut them off. They're they're done. We're done. And typically, what also comes with that is that sometimes the same individual will have a victim complex. Like everybody, nobody is there for me. Nobody, oh, I just try, I give and I give and I give, I give and I give. And people just take advantage of that kindness. And I'm cutting them off. And I'm like, I'm gonna hold your hand when I say this. Sometimes I will just say, actually, most times, I will say to a client like that, I'll say, So I've noticed that in most stories you tell me, you're the victim. So I'm curious, have has anybody ever told you that? Have you noticed that about yourself? And with that, I'm curious what role might you have played in each of these dynamics? Because it takes two. If you are, if a pattern is repeating, you've taken yourself each time to the next relationship or the next interaction. So, what is it that you might be doing that's perpetuating the pattern? And when you say you want to cut someone off, how does that, what does that typically look like? Have they been acting in a way that you've you have interpreted as they're crossing a boundary? And have you set, have you ever had a conversation with them about this? Have you maintained the pattern by never speaking up and saying, hey, sometimes when you do this, I feel this way. I feel this way when you do X, Y, Z. And I just want to bring it to you because I care about you. Have you had those types of conversations? Or have you continued to let a person do what they're doing? You haven't said anything, and then you get to a point where you're like, I've had enough, you're gone. That's unfair. That's not fair. Yeah, that's un that's unproductive, that's avoidant. You're not taking accountability. So you want to confront. I think so. I think so. Yeah. Especially if you are a chronic person, a chronic cutter offer, I guess. Like you're like, one thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna leave. I'm like, well, let's talk about that. Yeah. Cause that might not be the flex you think. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:45

And that's when the that's when bringing the willingness to be open and to be confronted into therapy, or even just in general in life, is really important. Um I guess for people that maybe tend or yeah, what would you recommend to people that do kind of tend to have this victim mentality? What's something like small, even they can start doing to try to break out of that very limited perspective that they're stuck in?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:18

I would say, I would say to it could be really helpful to understand what are your needs. Are there any unmet needs that you've had since you were really young? And how might you be trying to meet that need in a way that's unhelpful for you? Maybe it was helpful for you at one point and it was adaptive, you know. Maybe you being defensive in a household with an emotionally abusive parent, you you felt like you needed to be defensive, and that was functional at the time. Now you're an adult, it's not so functional anymore. So that's just one example. So it's like get clear on what are your needs if you find yourself in a pattern where you feel like you're always the one. Where life is happening to you, again, think how does even playing the victim, how is that meeting a need, even if it may be in an unhealthy way? How what need is that meeting? And how can I seek to meet that need in a more help productive way? Because being the victim is not is not working for me anymore.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:23

That was so good. Yeah. There's so much there's so much goodness in this. I've like been taking notes. I'm sure somebody else is taking notes too. It's fantastic. This is my soapbox. I love it. Yes. Thank you so much for bringing that to this. All right. Um, let me look at our list. I think we we're like at the end of time, but I think we have maybe time for like a couple more. Um let me see some good ones. Oh,

“If they wanted to they would”

SPEAKER_03 1:28:48

um, okay. We are going to let's see, what should we end with? So we have one more call in from Max. I think we can go ahead and end with that one. Um, before we do that one, you added this one to the list, actually. So I wanted to make sure we do this one. The phrase if they wanted to, they would.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:12

That's just that triggered me. Yeah. That upset me, yeah. That upset me a little bit. If they wanted to, they would. It needs to be thrown into the garbage.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:25

It needs to be thrown. So I I have a hard time imagining the people who are listening to our podcast don't know what that means. But just in case they don't, how about we start with a little synopsis? What is that? It's a trend, you know, or maybe it's an older trend, but yeah, um, could you give a little explanation to those people who may not know?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:46

So typically I see it in the context of a romantic relationship where someone would say, listen, if they wanted to, they would. And what they're referring to, if he or she, if he wanted to buy you flowers, he would. He would. If he if he wanted to always pay for your meals, or she, if she always wanted to fill in the blank, she would. And the fact that she's not or that he's not means that he's toxic. He's not good for you. You deserve better. Because if he wanted to make mind. And I'm like, again, throw it in the garbage. The reason that that's not always helpful is because it assumes that they are mind readers. Also, the way that you receive love may not be the way that someone is typically used to giving it. So for you, if you know that tangible things like flowers makes you feel loved, the other person is more focused on, oh, I typically give my love by um words of affirmation or physical touch or whatever it might be, and you're thinking, they're not even thinking, oh, let me buy you flowers. For them, they may be like, oh, well, I, you know, in most cases, if you're with a healthy, if you're in a healthy, stable relationship, loving, supportive, kind, not abusive, all of these things. If you're in a healthy relationship, nine times out of ten, if you simply communicate your needs, the person will probably happily do it. Yeah. Like, well, gee, if you so what's more helpful than thinking if they wanted to, they would is if I express my needs like an like an adult, if I express what makes me feel loved, are they receptive to that? Is the request reasonable? Because buying some of my flowers is very reasonable. Asking for, you know, saying, hey, can we go, can we do some kind of date night, something once a week or something? Hey, okay, you that's something you want. Let's talk about how to do that. Sure, I'll do that for you. That's more important. How, how, like, you know, how is your partner seeking to help meet, like help you feel loved in the ways that you feel loved? Do they become defensive? Are they receptive? These are the things that are more important. Not if they wanted to, they would, because sometimes people just don't be knowing. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:02

They don't know. So focus more, focus less on those like spontaneous actions and focus more on how they respond to you communicating your needs to them.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:11

Correct. And if they then show up consistently for you, not perfectly, right? Not perfectly, but because oh my goodness, I swear you, everything has to be a caveat these days, but it's just like it really does. Consistently, it's the intention. It's the intent. Are they listening? Are they attentive? Great. That's the sign of a good partner. Not things which you think they should know without you having to say it when it comes down to if they wanted to buy me food on the way home, they would. Like guys. This is why you're in bad relationships. This is why you're single.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:44

It's so funny that I I know I've heard the phrase like um uh there's just like the stereotype of like specifically women, and this is totally not always true, but I'm living this living the stereotype. I know, I know by experience it can be true, at least in some cases, where women will typically just expect the men to know because they're just supposed to just want them to know. And I have heard this in my entire life, and I was like, oh, that's silly. You should communicate things, they're not mind readers. But as a married woman, dude, it's really like it really is. It's easy to feel that it is real. And like I've I've caught myself so many times thinking, like so. My husband's name is Delano, like um, thinking, oh, Delano is doing this out of this reason, or not doing this out of this reason. Let me give an actual tangible example example. So like he'll occasionally buy me flowers, um, which is very sweet, very sweet. But often there'll be like Walmart flowers that's like a really small, kind of cheap bouquet. There's like a few dead flowers, and like I'll see that. And like I started catching myself being like, uh, this is communicating to me that he doesn't want to spend money on me, like that he he wants to do like the bare minimum. But then, and so I would get stuck in that and I was like, I don't want to have to say anything. Like, I don't I want him to just do it, but that gets us nowhere. And so finally one day I communicated that with him, and it totally wasn't what I was thinking at all. Like he genuinely was just thinking, he he actually didn't even see the dead flowers. He was like, Oh, this is a pretty bouquet. I'll get this for her. And he had no way of knowing that I was over here, like kind of taking it the long way, right? Yes. Um and so it really just took communicating. And that was, I think, one reason I didn't want to communicate is because I didn't want to be ungrateful, right? For the fact that he was buying me flowers, but you still have to communicate. I think it's doing more disservice to your partner. Um, it's doing more disservice to not communicate what you're really feeling than it is to maybe be a little ungrateful in the moment, you know, or like yeah, come across a little ungrateful in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:02

Yeah. It goes a long way. And I mean, there's there's ways to work around that too. You express pre appreciation and maybe don't say it in the moment, you know? Like not you specifically, but people in general. Yeah. Like if they give you flowers, you're like, you like, thank you. I really appreciate this. So let's run to it later. Yes. Like, you're like, you know what, babe, I really like when you do this. It makes me feel really good when you do this. So, like, but I'm locked in. Yeah. Yes. Ideally, ideally, you want to be like, oh, noted. And now they can show up for you, and now you're not sitting there feeling sorry for yourself. Oh, he never wants to show me love. Like, yeah. Have you communicated?

SPEAKER_03 1:35:39

Feeling sorry for yourself and getting lost in those loops of TikToks using that audio, using that trend if you want to.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:46

Now you think you have

“Vibes”

SPEAKER_01 1:35:47

a bad partner. Now you think you have a bad partner. Yeah. And that's may not, that may not be the case.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:52

So harmful. All right. So we are going to end this with Max's last pre-recorded message message for you. Um, so let me get this up.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:02

Evan, I have a question for you, and it has to do with um something you've mentioned before, which is that you really, really value your intuition and being able to make decisions um and value judgments based on your intuition. What does that look like in practical terms when it comes to like meeting people or judging situations? Can we do that just off of vibes? Or like how how do you mix in the skill of like psychological knowledge or coping strategies, or you know, the various expertise that you might have or that you could impart to your clients? Like, how do you bring that into the picture so that you can rely on your intuition? Like, how where does intuition fit with like skill?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:50

Yeah. Great question. That's a very good question.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:53

Let you go ahead and reflect in a clinical sense, using relying on intuition is more so what we call clinical judgment. So clinical judgment means based on it relies on the context of your client. It relies on the therapeutic relationship you've built with them. Again, the issues they're presenting with, what you know about this client's background, their history, their way, the way they show up in the world. Based on the experience you get, you have with the client over time, you're then able to use your clinical judgment to be like, okay, and it's a skill, it is a skill, partly an art as well, which is why we talk about therapy is an art more than it is a science, if you ask me. But it's being able to tune in and you it's something that we have to hone. I'm still a baby clinician. Again, two years is really young in the field, but um it's a skill you hone and you have to practice listening to it. Sometimes you might be off. You might be off and you'll be like, okay, okay, that's not what I was thinking. That's not what I've done. So let me course correct. Sometimes that might mean what we what we call creating a rupture in the relationship, meaning that there's something that was done that rubbed the client the wrong way and it severed the trust in the relationship. Very common, most cases very fixable if the if the therapist models accountability. Hey, so I think I may have misrepresented your statement or I think maybe I misunderstood. I take, I'm sorry about that. Let's work towards, you know, mending that. So intuition in a clinical sense really comes down to I think clinical judgment. And it's very contextual based. It's not, it really isn't based on vibes. It shouldn't be. I know sometimes, I know sometimes my Gen Z friends and I, like those of us who are therapists, we'll use that kind of lingo when we're in um when we're consulting because we're talking to each other. So we'll be like, yeah, the vibes were off. I wasn't getting that vibe with her. Like, I'm not doing that. Um, but what we really mean is yeah, based on it, it's the based on everything we're learning and like patterns we're seeing in similar types of clients. It's like we can deduce that this might be the best next step, knowing that you might be wrong. Like, yeah. So that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:19

I didn't know that intuition could be defined in the in the in the clinical sense. I didn't realize that. That's just what I'm thinking off rev.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:27

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:29

But um, but yeah, then like I'm sorry, keep going. No, you're good. Um, I mean wait, I will say too that well, yeah, yeah. It's clinical judgment.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:41

And then what about for you? I think what he was specifically talking about, especially was just like when you're talking about finding friends, right? And and people that you connect with. And you do you have mentioned before that you do kind of rely on vibes a little bit, like um intuition, yeah. The energy thing. Yeah. Do you I I guess so the the the term here is the word vibe, right? Like the concept is using kind of energy and vibes, and this is something that many people allude to online. Um but again, as it is a the trend with kind of a lot of these these watered down uh terms, like it could be used in the wrong way, it could be abused in some way. Um do you see the word vibes? Do you see using relying on that to like make friends as being a potential issue? And how could people go about it in a more healthy way?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:39

I would say since he was asking me specifically in my case when I say that I'm relying on my like it's an energy thing when I when I know, okay, I want to lean into this, like this person sparked my interest, something about them I find really cool and interesting. Do I want to get to know them? Typically, I can tell, I can tell pretty soon if I want to lean in or if I don't. And even though I might say, oh, it's just a vibe thing, realistically, it's something that you practice for a while and you just you really get it good at it. You yeah, you work the muscle, and it's something that you can then learn to trust over time. So it's not just the vibes, even though we we use that term. It's like, no, I've practiced noticing patterns, especially if you get a pattern recognition. And especially therapists, good therapists, or just good clinicians, even when it's literally our job to notice patterns in people and to notice similar things that may signal, okay, yellow flag, red flag, and then green flag. Like, you know, yeah. Or, you know, so one example for that for me may be like, let's say that I meet someone, they seem really cool. This is a real example. I may meet someone and I'm like, okay, we have similar humor, nice check. In my head, I'm like, click, okay. But let's say I notice even in the first few interactions that they often seem to bring a lot of heaviness. Let's say that they're come, I find that they are a chronic complainer about things. In my head, I go, okay, chronic a chronic complainer tends to sometimes live in a very negative headspace. Okay, is this the kind of energy that I want to invite into my space on a consistent basis? Are they the type of person who seems like they always have a lot that they need to get off their chest and it's very heavy things, knowing myself, am I then it's just gonna trigger this thing in me that feels like I need to come and fix or things like that? I'm like, I'm not maybe this isn't someone I want to bring in to my space. I I this, you know, yeah. It's a very specific process. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:55

And honestly, I feel like this is actually a really great term to end on because it seems like vibes has passed the vibe tech and has passed the vibes. Like it's a it's a helpful, it's actually a helpful phrase because I think a lot of us do understand what we mean when we use the term vibes, where we are going through that process you just mentioned, maybe not consciously, but subconsciously based on previous experiences with people. And but the word vibes is just a helpful word to use to

Takeaways from the episode

SPEAKER_03 1:43:21

like just our lingo. Yeah. Yeah. You pass the vibe check. For sure. Yeah. Cool. Well, I think the overall takeaway then from this section is just, you know, say say what you mean and mean what you say. Like know what the words mean that you're using. Um, make sure you're being aware and like not watering something down in a way that could be harmful to somebody else. Yeah. Um, but intentionality. Yeah, intentionality. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. I think, yeah, we covered so much ground in this episode. So thank you for letting me grill you and letting Max and Mel grill you as well. It was really fun. Like I said before, I really did. I learned so much. I hope everybody else listening learned a lot right now, too. Um I hope so. Sorry, I just got I got distracted because I think your network is a little bit. Oh, it's struggling. It's struggling a little bit. But I think you're back. I'm hearing you now. So that's okay, good. Um, yeah, so takeaways, um, accountability, bring that up like into your life, be being open, being willing to stay open, be critiqued by people that you trust, whether that's a therapist or like again a trusted like family member. Um, practice on um extractive honing your awareness of yourself um and you know, in in an effort to not be stuck in this like victimhood mindset and instead actually doing actions, practicing things that will help you in the long run, even if they're uncomfortable for the time being. Um use your words with care, intentionality. Anything else you want to leave with people before we sign off for today?

SPEAKER_01 1:45:06

Yeah, I encourage anybody who has access to therapy. Access is a big one. If you do and you're curious about the process, let's say maybe you're going through like again transitions in your life, or you feel stuck and you don't know why, and you're seeking that guidance, then you should try it out. Because again, not everybody needs therapy, but I'm a firm believer that every single person can benefit from therapy. So yeah, I'd say try it out if you have access to it. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:38

Yeah. All right. Thank you so much, Evan. Good luck with your upcoming big test. Again, congratulations on passing your recent milestone. And we just wish you all the best as you move forward towards your next milestone.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:53

Thank you. Thanks. This is fun. It also helps to work my mesself like explaining concepts in an easy way. Like trying to like for the general public. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:05

Thank you for sound too water clinical. Not thank you for not watering things down, but simplifying them so that we can understand and get some good out of them. I hope that's what happened. Yes. Great. All right, guys. We will be signing off. Um, wish you guys all the best in your own growth processes in life. Yeah. Um, and let's keep growing together. And we'll be back, we'll be back with another episode in a couple weeks. All right, bye guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:33

See ya.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:37

Thank you everyone for joining us today. Stay tuned for our next episode. And in the meantime, let's keep growing together.