The Resilience Project

What It’s Like to Love an Adoptee: Being Seen, Staying, and Learning Along the Way

• Season 1 • Episode 28

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Summary

In this deeply personal and relational episode, Julie sits down with her longtime friend Cathy Rosenquist - someone who has had a front-row seat to some of Julie’s most defining seasons.

From loss and reunion to therapy, identity, and divorce… Cathy didn’t just hear about it. She lived alongside it.

This conversation offers something rarely spoken about in adoption spaces:

What is it like to love an adoptee through it?

Through honest reflection, Cathy shares what she saw, what she didn’t understand at first, and what helped most - not from a place of expertise, but from curiosity, humility, and a willingness to stay.

Together, they explore how patterns rooted in early disruption can show up in relationships, the impact of feeling like you have to earn acceptance, and what begins to shift when someone chooses to truly see you.

This episode is for adoptees and for the people who love them.

Because healing doesn’t happen in isolation.
 It happens in relationship.

Keywords

adoption, adoptee healing, relationships, friendship, trauma, identity, belonging, emotional safety, connection, self-trust, attachment, support systems

Key Topics

  • What it’s like to walk alongside an adoptee through grief, reunion, and identity work 
  • Patterns of people-pleasing, fear, and the need for acceptance 
  • The gap between outward confidence and internal self-trust 
  • Why adoptees may struggle to use their voice - even when they seem expressive 
  • Moving from “something is wrong with me” to building self-trust 
  • Letting go of fixing and learning to simply be present 
  • The power of curiosity over assumption in relationships 
  • How consistent, intentional connection builds safety and trust 

Takeaways

  • You don’t need to fully understand someone to stay with them 
  • Curiosity creates connection - assumption creates distance 
  • Many adoptee patterns are rooted in a deep need to feel safe and accepted 
  • Being “seen” without being fixed can be profoundly healing 
  • Relationships that last are built through intentional presence 
  • You don’t have to have the right words - just a willingness to stay 
  • Healing often happens when someone defies the expectation that they will leave

Chapters

00:00 – A friendship built over 14 years
03:00 – How Julie and Cathy first met
06:00 – What Cathy saw over the years
10:30 – Witnessing grief, discovery, and transformation
13:30 – Patterns Julie couldn’t see at the time
18:00 – The shoes story and learning self-trust
20:30 – What Cathy misunderstood about adoption
24:30 – Moving beyond the “rescue” narrative
28:00 – Witnessing reunion, grief, and complexity
31:00 – Trying to understand the adoptee experience
35:00 – Why the timeline mattered
38:00 – What actually helped in the friendship
41:00 – Learning to ask, “What do you need?”
43:30 – Sitting with what couldn’t be fixed
46:00 – Finding and trusting Julie’s voice
49:00 – How friendship changed Cathy
52:00 – What people who love adoptees need to know
53:30 – “You’ve got this” and closing reflections

Un-M-Othered: A Revolution in Adoptee Healing

Website

Instagram: @juliebrumley_

Facebook: julierasbrum

TikTok: @juliebrumley_

Click to Join My Free Adoptee Facebook Group

You Tube: @julie_brumley

SPEAKER_02

Hi y'all, I'm Julie. I'm a trauma-informed adoptee coach and somatic healing guide. After overcoming deep abandonment wounds, I now help adult adoptees move from feeling lost and disconnected to experiencing profound self-belonging. I know what it is like to carry the weight of abandonment, to feel stuck in patterns of longing, adapting, and searching for belonging. To have tried every healing modality available and come up empty. My own healing has taught me this. The answers aren't out there. They're buried within me. And I'm here to guide you home to yourself. The Resilience Project Podcast brings voice, visibility, and validation to the parts of adoption society rarely names, but all of us feel. Through an trauma-informed somatic lens, I explore the lived experiences of the entire adoption constellation with a tender emphasis on the adoptive experience. This podcast goes beyond storytelling into soul telling. It offers embodied insight, compassionate education, and a path towards awareness, hope, and strength. Each episode invites listeners to understand adoption more deeply, not just with the mind, but with the nervous system and to reconnect with the truth, identity, and belonging that were always yours to come home to. She was there through all of that. She didn't just hear about it. She was there. She was observing, she was seeing. And that's why I wanted to have this conversation because so often we hear about adoption from the perspective of an adoptee. But we don't always hear from the people who have loved us through it. And what did they actually see as we were going through these things? What did they not understand at first? What helped and what didn't? And Kathy brings something really unique to this conversation, I think. She's an observer. She's thoughtful. She pays attention. And one of the things that I love about her is she's an Enneagram 5. So she investigates. So if something came up with me, I didn't even know she would be doing this. She would just be off researching and then she'd come back and be like, I have some questions. It was so funny. So what she shares here is not going to be surface level. Kathy and I can't do surface, just doesn't work for us. So this is all grounded in years of witnessing, questioning, and choosing on her part to stay. So as you listen to this conversation, whether you're an adoptee or one who loves one, I want to invite you to listen from a place of understanding, from both sides. We're not fixing anyone, we're not trying to figure anybody out, we're just being here to understand each other because there's something really powerful in both sides being seen. And there's something equally powerful about learning how to truly see someone else. And that is something that Kathy has done for me. And I'm very, very grateful. So welcome, Kathy. Are you ready to get into it? Ready. The other thing that I think is funny too is I I use this phrase and you know me well enough to know that it kind of fits me, but you're a podcast virgin. I am.

SPEAKER_00

My first, my I I've I've heard a lot of, I watched a lot of podcasts, but this is my first time to participate. I am like I hope I don't mess it up.

SPEAKER_02

You won't. I'm just honored that it's this one. It makes me so happy. Okay. So I'm gonna dive right on in and I'm gonna start peppering you with questions. My first one is can you share a little about how we met and what it's been like for you to walk alongside me for the last 14 years?

SPEAKER_00

Well, like a small little question. Just start out with a little one. Um you're not easing me into this, are you? Nope. Um, yeah, I remember the location we were at on the border. We went out for Mexican food. I had never met you, but I knew your husband since he was friends with the family for a long time, your husband's family. And so I had, but I had not had the chance to meet you. I knew about you, but didn't meet you. And then you guys were back and forth from Hawaii and Northern Virginia, and you had the boys with you, and we had a chaotic dinner on the border, trying to get to know each other, but and then you had car trouble in the middle of all that, and then needed to, I mean, it was just kind of a but what a great intro, really, because that's kind of the way our life was, and we just we're fine with that. And I think over when you when you said 14 years, I was like, it's been 14 years.

SPEAKER_01

I should get you something. It might have been longer because 2013.

SPEAKER_02

No, it's been 14 years. This is 14 years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, this is our okay. Well, I have seen a transformation in many ways. Part of it's probably just you know, run-of-the-mill maturity that happens and just the age range and the range, age range of your children that matures you, and uh then um you know all that you've been through. I think through it all, your authenticity has impressed and startled me quite often. I I have become a more authentic, less private, less guarded person. I think I am authentic, but not in a outward way. Just pick and choose who I'm authentic with. But the fact that whatever you experienced, your posse around you experienced it as well. And I think that was a good thing. I think I see the men that your sons are, who they are. And I believe part of that is having gone through life when they were, you know, when we first met you guys, they were what, 11 and 12 and 9. Yeah. And even then, you would pretty much just be yourself with them. And I think I think that was very good for them. And I think it's probably a result of sort of your life being a little bit orchestrated, your your life of origin. Um, and then you just were who you were, I think, with the family and with your close friends. And I I learned, I think that was, if I was gonna say, like a secret to success in our relationship and in all that you've been through. I think that was a big part of it was your consistent authenticity with it.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I really received that. And thank you so much. Cause I mean, I think when you what you know about me is what you see is what you get. You either love it or you hate it. So I very much appreciate that you loved it. Thank you for that. Through all of those seasons, I mean, so many ups and downs and and painful things that we've had to walk through together. What stands out to you most when you think about that in general?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I have been thinking about this since we set this, since you tricked me into setting this podcast up. No kidding.

SPEAKER_01

I know.

SPEAKER_00

I just think, Julie, you're you're tried and true. You know, you're you traveled across the country to come to my dad's funeral. Not because I asked you to, but just because you felt like that was the thing to do. With burns with three third degree burns on my yes, yes, after dumping boiling water on her legs at camp. Yeah. And what a joy you were, even to the family that you stayed with there. And I think your boys feel a lot of security that they're gonna get the same person when they call. They may get somebody in tears, they may get somebody that's upset, they may get somebody who's excited, all of those. But they know that they're gonna get the same person. And that's what I think stands out to me is you're you're very consistent, and as you've gone through things, you've continued to put one foot in front of the other. And that's what I mean by tried and true is whether it was trying to homeschool the boys or trying to start our counseling practices and trying to figure out how in the world we were gonna do that, and then going through COVID together, you know, just any number of things, loss of parents and loved ones, and but you just kept putting one foot in front of the other. You didn't stay in bed and pull the covers over your head. You may have had moments or maybe hours like that, but overall you got up and did what you could.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, I had people like you in my corner to help me, for sure. And I think that's a testament to our relationship, but I also think it's a testament to what you just said. We need people in our lives, and I'm so grateful I had and have you. So you had a front row seat to some I know I've said this multiple times. I'm repeating it for a reason because there's not a lot of people who have had this. You've had a front row seat to the hardest seasons of my life. Seriously. What did you actually see in me during those times?

SPEAKER_00

Different things at different times, but I think I saw a struggle.

SPEAKER_01

I saw a brokenness.

SPEAKER_00

I saw deep, deep grief, but at the same time, I saw somebody who was always willing to do something for a friend, go across the country to celebrate birthdays with friends, and it just it wasn't your identity. Yes, that was a part of what you were doing through. But then you also had a side that I I think you you're a really good friend. And I think you love deeply and um so yeah, all of those times of desperation and confusion and dreams shattered and gaining understanding through rivers of tears, but at the same time, your laugh was never very far away.

SPEAKER_01

You know, so thank you.

SPEAKER_02

We're only 13 minutes in and you've already got me tearing up. I appreciate that so much. I think this is a big one because I remember I can look back now and see the times that you saw patterns that I didn't. But in it, I I really could not see it. You were so there were times where you were a little bit more harsher than I liked, but there were other times that you were so gentle. And I guess my question about this is how would you describe that? There were obviously patterns that you noticed that I could not see. How would you describe that? What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00

Well, part of it was very confusing for me because I didn't realize the subscript.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Neither one of us realized the subscript that was going on. So probably the harshness just came from uh a frustration of not understanding. And I think patterns were it's this is a strange word to use, but it's the best word I can think of. And that is that you were very quick, quick on the draw, quick to say things, quick to react, quick to want to fix things, quick to if I had pointed something out that I thought suggestion of something, then it was a really big deal for you to quickly resolve that situation. And um that was a pattern that I didn't understand came from all that you discovered in the last few years. But that fear that was underneath that came across as anger as sort of uh a like uh a little bit of a defensiveness. Like, don't tell me I've done anything wrong, because I need, and I didn't realize this is what it was, but I think you were saying I need to feel okay about myself. I need to make sure everybody else feels okay about me. And that's a need. That wasn't even a want. I think that was a huge need that you had. And so the pattern of that, and then I think the second pattern that I pointed out, probably in not the most tactful way, but was that you were living based on other people's opinions and didn't trust your own. And the look on your face when I would ask a question about what do you think about this? The look was what's the right thing to say? I need to have an answer. And I'm do different things that I do, I'm doing because somebody made a comment, and so I'm changing what I do as a result of that.

SPEAKER_02

Two things underlying that it was the I'm defective thing that you're referring to from the first pattern, and the second, the second one was that chameleon aspect. I have to be accepted in every situation for me to be okay. But I didn't I didn't know, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I I think once I got to know you better, I was able to understand that that's my my role in our friendship was to build that up. To build up the to change the narrative about there being a defect. And then to change the narrative that what you said, thought, felt that that was just fine because you did it and you said it and you felt it and you thought it. And that I trusted you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that was really huge for me. Yeah, it helped me build my own self-trust. I think truly, Kathy. You have done everything in your power to understand me. I think because in so many ways you saw my pain before I did. And I have this memory before it was soon, it was really close to before my marriage started going south, where we went to a conference together. And I brought shoes. Do you remember this? I brought shoes that my then husband did not like because I liked them and could wear them when he wasn't around. And I told you that, and you got this look on your face of complete and utter disbelief. What is going on? Why are you doing that? You can like things yourself. And I just remember and you questioned me, and I I defended, I I remember defending. It's it and yeah, I mean, that was 2021. It's only five years ago. I know you remember that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I remember, I remember I just didn't want you to be told what to wear. I thought that was ridiculous. Yeah. Well, it was. I just not that you were ridiculous. That's not what I'm saying. I know. But I was trying to, I guess without even knowing it, I was saying that's not normal. Yeah, you didn't know. That's not healthy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I remember going back and talking to my counselor about it because I was like, I I don't know any different. What's wrong with this? So it's really, really interesting. And I think for you, if you could think about this, you know me deeply now, for sure. I've let you into every nook and cranny of my life. Before knowing me that deeply, though, what did you actually understand or misunderstand about adoption? Now, this is interesting. You've had plenty of friends who've adopted. So this will be interesting to hear from you. Well, there may be even be a story here that you don't know.

SPEAKER_01

No way. Yeah. Have I ever told you about our failed adoption?

SPEAKER_00

Rose, it's funny because it slips in and out of my memory banks. And the other day somebody was asking me about our we had a lot of miscarriages, and they were asking me to do that. I knew that, yeah. And at some point there was uh a teenager in an organization that we were friends with her parents, and she had gotten pregnant, and she uh had asked her parents, they were gonna put the baby up for adoption, and she had asked her parents if my husband and I, by the way, when we talk about it, sounds like I don't have any regard for what a husband would say about what a wife has to wear. But I have been happily married for 45 years, so I think I'm okay working all of that out.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, this was this was a long time ago before we had our first child. And um, so we got a few weeks away from that adoption. And I I wasn't a hundred percent. My husband was one thousand percent. I just was scared to death. I thought, I don't I haven't had any time because this was all happening in her last month of pregnancy, and then uh it became apparent that in that situation it needed to be a private adoption because of some legal stuff. And so we did not obviously adopt and uh and it was crushing for my husband, but there was a part of me that was like I was a little bit relieved because I just I didn't know anything about adoption at that time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I had very few friends growing up who were adopted. I did have a cousin who was adopted, and that did not go well in her life. But my my understanding of it changed even before I met you. So the idea I would use the word rescue as a lot of people do, yeah, as how I understood it. And that that it was a healthy family rescuing a child from an unhealthy situation. And um, you know, I I don't doubt anybody's motives in any of the the whole everything. If you're listening and that sounds judgmental or whatever, that's not I haven't been through it, so there's no way I could say what I would do. But I think it was just an understanding that love can fix everything. And then especially when our we had some friends who did some uh international adoptions, right? And then we had some friends who did domestic adoptions, and the majority of those situations were uh problematic eventually. In the relationships between the adoptive parents and the children. And things have been obviously things are have worked out and are working out and all that kind of thing. Everybody's working on it. But I just didn't understand. I was like, I don't understand. Why would you want to go back in an international adoption to a situation that was terrible? Where there were not parents. It was an orphanage. But the this the innate desire for reunification was something for me to take a note. You know, I was like, whoa, this is this is different than I thought. And then when I met you and we talked about it at first, when we first talked about it, it was kind of like you were rescued, was the narrative. And I had met your mom and gotten to know her. And I was like, yeah, this is a great situation. It wouldn't have been great, a great upbringing otherwise. And so that was still the narrative in my mind.

SPEAKER_01

And then when you started going through more discovery, then I learned along with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The complications that it's not quite as a storybook tale as it might seem.

SPEAKER_02

Mm-hmm. And one of the things I really appreciate appreciate about you during that time, Kathy, is you never once tried to put a bow on it. You listened, you heard, you digested, you did your Enneagram fiveness, and you you received it and held it for me. And I couldn't have had a better friend go through the reunion time, the discovery time when my birth mother died and all of that. That's when I started really recognizing how her decisions had impacted me. Um in my current, even my my current relationship at the time. Yeah, you you definitely have answered that very thoroughly. And I I appreciate it. But I think that's how a lot of people are. Even my mom, when I interviewed her, she had a very similar response. It was, and I'm so grateful she was willing to seek to understand and not judge, and really appreciate that so much. It's courageous for her to do that. I agree, totally agree. Because she for a long time was worried she'd lose me to either side of the birth family, which of course would never happen, but she feared that, which I who what mom wouldn't? I mean, I I can understand that in that situation. I think of all the grief and complexity that you the layers that you've walked through with me, through loss, through reunion, through those therapy realizations that I was having when I was doing EMDR on all of this, so many layered experiences. What was it like for you to witness all of that as someone who cared about me?

SPEAKER_01

It was brutal.

SPEAKER_00

Because I couldn't help you. I couldn't. I mean, somebody else I might could go in and just hug it out, but that's not this was so deep.

SPEAKER_01

And there were no platitudes, of course, that were helpful.

SPEAKER_00

There was really nothing I could do. I mean I couldn't relate. Fortunately, we did have a situation that was a bit parallel to yours in that through DNA, the DNA kind of the resurgence of the the appearance of DNA testing became much more common, and my husband found some siblings he didn't know that he had. And so we got to know them, and they were lovely people and has been a great experience. But we sort of understood sort of the reunification or the the whole idea of being with your birth people that look like you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You know, and that feeling that can't be explained with that. And so I'm I'm grateful that that kind of all happened at the same time because I was had a tiny bit of understanding. But there were times when you were you were unreachable in your grief and your and and that's okay because I couldn't I I couldn't go there. And that's why I think it's so important the work that you're doing is because you can relate and understand and go through this with people who need to take this journey.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much. And honestly, that situation, it it was, I mean, God timed it perfectly because it was right before, right before I found my birth father's side. And so I just remember I have vivid memories of Jack bursting through the door and going, so what was that like for you? Because he had just experienced that. And it was, it was really cool to be able to have that connection point, you know. So I really appreciate that so much. So back to this whole idea of you being someone who observes and investigates, and you're so good at that. What did you find yourself trying to understand about me or the adoptee experiences that I was having?

SPEAKER_00

Logically. So I have a very strong Spock-like mind. Yeah. And this is not logical, as Spock would say, for you to pine for something that you were rescued from. So I had to realign my understanding and realign and and listen to what you were saying. And of course, the whole pre-birth, pre-you know, like my memories maybe go back to one year, right? Certainly not before that. So knowing somebody that had memories that were postpartum just was, it was kind of like hearing a different language and eventually learning how to understand what you were saying. But at first I just kind of had to nod because I just, I just didn't get it on a on a I couldn't relate to it, but that didn't make it not true.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And I think people sometimes they think if I can't relate to it, if I've if I've never experienced that, it must not be true for for you. And I just I learned not to do that. So I think um that was probably trying to understand that and um how best like a what now, I'm a real what now person. It's like what will help now? What will help not only you, but so many people that I know that I'm mostly friends with the parents of adoptees or the adoptive parents of adoptees and figuring out what now? How do I use what I'm learning then to help somebody else? And so I think just a lot of experiences that I never had. So again, it was a like a foreign language.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I I couldn't dismiss it just because I didn't understand it.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I totally feel that because it was like a foreign language to me, too. It was something that my body felt and I didn't, I couldn't fully understand. So it was like we were kind of understanding together as I was trying to verbally process. As you well know, that is how I process. So you had to experience a lot of that. So I think with all of that, did anything surprise you as you began to connect the dots through all of that? Did anything just kind of go, whoa, I had no idea, or become the light bulb moment for you during that time?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think the fact that there was in your particular case, so much time between birth and being placed with your mom and dad, that had a huge impact on you because you were placed twice. So the idea of this double abandonment and triple disruption from the womb to the foster family to your adoptive family, that's three major worlds. It's like your whole world changed. You didn't have the ability to think through, oh, this makes sense. But everything you knew that was safe was taken away, replaced with something that you were supposed to just understand, you were just supposed to know that it was safe, and you'd had no way to know it was safe, because what you had depended on in the past had been ripped away from you, and or you had been ripped away from it. And so as a reflex or an instinct, you you were unsettled, and it made so that when I understood the timeline and what it was like from your perspective, it made sense.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I remember sitting down and having that conversation, you asked, help me understand this, because I need you, I don't even know if you said connect the dots, but I think that's what you were trying to do. You were trying to figure it all out. And then it was almost as if my behavior that you described early on in this interview made sense to you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The great fear of not belonging and being rejected because you didn't belong caused a great deal of anxiety anytime that those relationships were the least bit threatened.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Yeah. I have vivid memories of that for sure. One specifically when my ex and I had we had a fight, and I remember he said some hurtful things, and I'm sure I did too. And I went to you and I'm like, help me. I don't know how to handle this. And that happened. That happened multiple times. And I was so thankful that you were there. But I think part of that was my my stability felt like it was being pulled out from under me when really I had to learn to get the stability from within me. And you were definitely a part, so much of a part of that process.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm grateful for that for sure. And I and I'm grateful that you've you kind of pulled back the curtain to let me experience that as well.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thank you for being willing to do that. That's a big deal, actually. A lot of people, their eyes roll in the back of their heads and they're like, I don't understand and I don't want to know, but you didn't do that.

SPEAKER_00

So my I have another friend that says if I see something I don't understand, I'm like a dog with a bone. Yeah. You're not gonna take it away from me till I understand it.

SPEAKER_02

That's exactly how you are. And I love that about you. So for someone who has loved me as an adoptee, of course, you didn't see me as that when you first met me, of course, because you didn't know that. But what do you actually feel helped in our friendship? What was it that helped you lean in?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I think I that what helped me was a couple of things. One was just realizing I didn't have any idea what I was talking about. That you were learning a new language. And so I couldn't sit in my own certainty because it would be stupid for me. And with my background and even my education and my experiences, even if you put all three of very rich things together, I'm still not gonna understand because none of that included what you went through. So I think just realizing this is new. This is new. And I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know what I don't know and I want to know. So probably just a curiosity and uh a quest to really see it the way you saw it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think because of that, it made me feel what all adoptees so desperately want to feel, which is that whole idea of being seen, heard, understood, known, and loved there, even in the imperfections, right? Even in what you saw as the brokenness was just the the grief, the loss, the sadness. So I so much appreciate that. It it was a bomb to my soul and so healing for me and why we will always be friends. No question.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you're stuck with me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm not going anywhere. Um, so what do you think didn't help or could have been done differently?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I don't remember ever asking you what do you need? And as I was talking a few minutes ago and said I didn't know what to do, it occurred to me then in that moment that I didn't ask you or anybody else what you needed. And I think that would that would have been uh an important element that I just didn't and you might not have known, but for me to ask, I think would have been the loving thing to do, to ask what you needed. And it probably would change day to day what you needed because your road was so not linear.

SPEAKER_02

Definitely not. I appreciate that. And what's interesting is I probably wouldn't have known. I think as I started to explore the the body, I began to know more what I did need. So I really do appreciate that. It's so important to know that what you want, what you need, be able to articulate that. So I appreciate that you say that. What was it like for you to sit with all of this without being able to have clear answers and solutions? Because that I know probably drove you nuts.

SPEAKER_00

It was like an itch I couldn't scratch. It was, it's funny because it was hard, but I had a belief that you were gonna get through it. I had a belief that you were gonna, that this was gonna help you. And I didn't have to know what to do or how to help, but that you were on a a journey, and I just believed that the best way to something is through something, and you were doing that. I think if you had been well acting out in certain ways so that you didn't have to go through this, like you were constantly distracting yourself from this journey, I probably would have been more frustrated. But my frustration was decreased because I felt like I never knew when we were on the same property and when I would come over to your house, I never knew what new discoveries you were going to tell me about that day. I know just it was a little bit like a treasure hunt.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so I think that your commitment to the process helped me feel safe and and feel at peace about not knowing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because you knew that I would tell you. You knew that whatever would come up, I would tell you. The thing that I think is beautiful, and you said this already, was you never once tried to fix me. Never once. I think you wanted to, but you never once did. And you did take the time, even though I think it was so difficult for you to hold that space for me, to be with me in it, to try to learn, to try to explore, to try to understand with me. And that felt so different than what I had experienced before in my life. So again, I've said this multiple times, but thank you for that. Because I think that helped me to just again be safe in myself. Like you said, it helped you to feel safe and secure. It helped me to be safe to know I could, whenever Kathy came in, I could just let everything hang out. And I loved those times.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think it would be laughable to think that I could fix you. Number one, you didn't need to be fixed. But number two, sister. Number two is it would be laughable to think that I knew the the roadmap on your journey. I didn't know. I was a passenger in the car part of the time, but I didn't know where we were going. I didn't know how we were gonna get there. And so to me, it's laughable when people give you opinions about things that they really know nothing about. They haven't experienced it. And they're telling you from the distance, like a uh armchair quarterback telling the telling the their football team how to play the game when they have no idea. And I just I knew I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and that's huge because it helped me knowing that you would you would also investigate for me the things that I maybe didn't have the capacity to do. So I loved that part of being with you during that time. So were there moments where you where you saw me struggle to use my voice at all?

SPEAKER_00

Almost every day.

SPEAKER_02

That's why I laughed. You wouldn't think that though, because I'm just I'm so out there vocal.

SPEAKER_00

But that was shocking to me because when I met you, I could hardly get a word in edgewise, and it kind of stayed that way for a while, and I'm introverted, and so I'm not gonna push into a conversation. I'm very comfortable listening. So you were very not in a bad way, but you were just confident and and you singing in front of the church, and you were helping lead this group and that group, and and but then you started saying things, and I'd be like, one of these things is not like the other, you know, this is this is incongruent. And it was. And you had built such a shell of a successful shell to protect what you didn't know needed protecting.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And so when you would say things like something that somebody else had said to you, and I would say, What did you say to them? and you'd say, Nothing. What do you mean, what did I say to them? So that was just shocking to me when it became clear that you didn't trust yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

That's true. I didn't I didn't at all. So what was it like from your perspective as I began to find it?

SPEAKER_00

Okay. I would start with the negative. It was great. It was great. I would start I was not always comfortable because it was new and it didn't always come out in a you know, in a palatable way. You know, sometimes it was kind of blurted. And so, yeah, which and I would say to myself, she's finding her voice, you know, let let it let it come out. That's good. Uh, but I would shrink a little on the inside, like, ugh, um, because that's that's my personality. But when you started finding your voice, I think you figured out who your true friends were. I think I did. And I think that's the way we all are. When we began, when we stop living for the pleasure and wishes of somebody else or people, other people, and then we decide to be who we are and push back on those things, then it's you do find out what's really love or what's just somebody really appreciates the fact that you have been conforming to what they think how life ought to be.

SPEAKER_02

That a long time. So I'm grateful that I'm not doing that anymore, I hope. And even if I were, I know you'd call me out on it.

SPEAKER_00

So Yeah, I don't think you're I don't think you're doing it. I think you're finding uh a voice, and I think you're you're helping. I think um I mean none of us are gonna be right all the time. Right. So trusting yourself can be scary because sometimes you trust yourself and then you go back and think about it, and you're like, you know, I don't think I was on target with that, but that's okay. And when you started being okay with mistakes, that's when I knew you were gonna really be okay. Because you began to say, huh, yeah, made a mistake. Oh well. Instead of sort of defending, yeah, ruminating, thinking about how to make it better, and you know, how to not how to prove that you weren't that way, all of those things. But when you were like comfortable with making a mistake, I thought, okay, you've gone from sort of quick and And reactive to noun calm and confident. And the fact that you just your life, I just saw a big difference in your energy where you're spending your energy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And if you had a graphic of your pie chart of your energy and how it would have been a big part of the pie chart would have been pleasing other people or making sure keeping the peace.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Or and then a little tiny would be what does Julie want? Yeah. You couldn't actually see that piece. And um, no, I I think it's just more balanced. You still deeply care for other people, but you're not living if if they're not pleased with you, it doesn't rock you.

SPEAKER_02

Amazing. So if you could describe how our relationship has changed you, how how would you how would you describe that?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think that I've learned so much from you. Um I've learned the value of being curious. I've learned that there's a lot of things I don't know. I've learned the value of kindness because there have been times when people who have hurt you, I just want to be mean to them, is a nice way to say it. And and you're just kinda still kind. And I'm that's good. I I need that. So I it's you've inspired it's I've I felt inspired by your faith being steady, if not deeper and deeper through all of this, to not let the outside of things and the way they're going on impact and throw you around, but really to be able to dig in and deep dig deep and keeping yourself centered on what's most important to you. And those other things, storms are gonna happen. And but they don't seeing that in you has made me want to be that way more.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I'm honored by that.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

So, how do you think it's helped you change how you see people, the trauma, the connection?

SPEAKER_00

I just I think I've gotten more empathetic because of our uh as I've watched and been a part of this journey. I you just don't know what people are going through. You don't know things are not as they appear. Yeah, that's true. I think that's what I would say. Don't trust what you see. Just search for the truth, but don't put your weight on, well, I think this or I think that, because we just don't know. And so I think having more empathy, having more patience, knowing people who had trauma and even people who discount their own trauma. Yeah, I'll let them discount it because they're not ready. I have a friend who discounts her own trauma growing up, and she's just not ready. I'm not gonna force it, but I'm also not gonna take everything she says as what she really, really feels because I think it's the trauma talking.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. But you know that now.

SPEAKER_00

I know that now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think in the past I would have been like offended or get it together or what's wrong with you, or whatever. But I think now I'm beginning to recognize when somebody's trauma's talking instead of their own.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I've got a few more questions, and then you can get to your grandson's birthday party, which I say happy birthday to me.

SPEAKER_00

Number 10.

SPEAKER_02

Love those people. What do you think has allowed our friendship to last through all of this?

SPEAKER_00

It's funny because it's not gonna be probably what some people might think. I really think an important part of it, Julie, is we have intentionality about staying in touch with each other. We have a time every week that we have set up, no matter where you live. I I have moved and you have moved twice. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Since we I mean, just recently, yeah, just in the last couple of years. But we've had a regular time. We don't always, we're not always able to do it, but three times out of four in a month, yeah. We're spending that Tuesday at four o'clock together. And I think that's huge. I really do. The other things, sure, the the authenticity, the depth, the uh having each other's back, giving each other insight, empathy, all of that's important. But I think the idea of intentional time together on a regular basis is undervalued. And I absolutely agree with you today.

SPEAKER_02

I agree with you. And I think we we have prioritized that in our relationship. And you're right, it's amazing. So you've already alluded to this, but I would love to hear what your answer is. What does it take to stay in a relationship with someone through this level of depth? The amount, I mean there have been times you came up to my bedroom after things that would happen and I would be in a pile. That's people don't have relationships like that very often. So what does it take? I don't even I don't know. I'm just curious what you think. I just willingness to risk, maybe?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I don't know. I think you have to look at certain relationships as family, and I would do anything for my family. And you just got on that list early on. So to me, it's just the definition of family.

SPEAKER_02

I think we knew it when we lived together the first time, but I don't think we realized how powerful it would end up being. I remember you saying to me, I've never been able to live with somebody like I've been able to live with you. Um so I don't know. I just thank God for that in so many ways. I think you've already spoken to this, but for someone who loves an adoptee and who wants to show up well, what would you want them to know? I think you've already said this, but if you could summarize what you've kind of already said, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_00

That you don't know. You don't know what you think you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it's just really important not to assume. And it's really important to show up for people, whether they can explain what's going on with them or not. And to be the kind of person that's not going to fit the narrative of everybody leads, or I'm not good enough, or I'm too much. And you just you want to be a person who defies that narrative.

SPEAKER_02

Amen. And you defied it, girlfriend. Big time. One last closing question. If you could say something to the version of me who was in the middle of all of that, what would you say to her?

SPEAKER_00

I don't think I would have need I would need to say anything. I think you've got this. Just keep doing what you're doing. You're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_02

Which is what you did say to me.

SPEAKER_00

Because I don't think it's about what I say. I think it it's your journey, and you've you've done a a fabulous job of you know, just putting one foot in front of the other, doing what's needed to be done, and just letting letting the journey take you where it took you, not trying to control it. And I think I would just say you've got this well.

SPEAKER_02

Kathy, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to do this with me. I'm so excited, but just for this to be released and for people to hear it, but it wasn't just for the conversation that we had. I think it was for the way. Thank you for the way that you've shown up in my life all these years. There's been something really powerful about being witnessed in the way that you have witnessed me. And it makes me emotional. And I know that what you shared today is going to give language and perspective to so many people who do love adoptees, for both adoptees and for the people who love them, like I said. And if you're listening, y'all, to this and something resonated, maybe something felt familiar, or maybe something helped you understand a little more clearly. I just want to invite you to stay with that. Because this kind of understanding, this kind of relationship, it doesn't come from having the right words or doing everything perfectly, like Kathy just talked about. It comes from being willing to stay. What she would have said to that version of me that was in the middle of it was nothing, y'all. It was her just being able to listen, to be curious, to not turn away when things got uncomfortable. And she did it. And if you're someone who loves an adoptee, I hope this gave you a window into what that can look like. Not fixing, not solving, like she said, one of the biggest phrases she said that I think is huge for adoptees is here is that you didn't need to be fixed. Because a lot of us think we're broken and that something's wrong with us. But she was present with me. And if you're an adoptee, I hope this reminds you that relationships like this do exist. That being seen like this is possible. And I'm really glad that you've been here with me on this journey. And as always, I'll be back with you next Thursday. So thank you so much. And remember that you can find me on all of the socials. I'm easily accessible and happy to talk to you. If you feel it in your soul to review, give me five stars. That would be amazing to comment. I always love that. And don't forget that there is a live in-person retreat that my colleague Liz Debeta and I are doing in Moscow, Idaho this month. And we look forward to seeing y'all there. That will be in the show show notes. So again, Kathy, thank you so much. You will always be so dear to me.

SPEAKER_00

Love you, Julie.

SPEAKER_02

I love you.