Mark Messier: The Art of Reinvention | Grey Matter with Declan Kelly

Over the course of his remarkable 26-year career, Mark Messier won six Stanley Cups and remains the only player in NHL history to captain two different franchises to a championship. Few elite athletes have been asked to reinvent themselves as often or as successfully.

In Edmonton, he spent a decade alongside Wayne Gretzky as the team's indispensable second star. When Gretzky was traded in 1988, Messier stepped into the captaincy and led the Oilers to another Stanley Cup two years later. Then he arrived in New York, where he joined a franchise that hadn't won a championship in 54 years and helped end that drought in his third season.

In this episode of Grey Matter, Mark joins Consello Founder, Chairman and CEO Declan Kelly to reflect on a career shaped by constant adaptation. They discuss how he learned to meet the demands of different teams, different moments, and different stages of his career, and why that same mindset matters just as much in business as it does in sport.

In this conversation, Mark discusses:

· The realization at nineteen that led him to train his mind as deliberately as his body 

· How he thought through the Gretzky trade in 1988, and why he changed his role 

· What separates a good teammate from a great one, and why surrendering to the team is the highest form of leadership 

· How leaders hold people accountable without breeding resentment 

· How he weighed the move to New York when the people he trusted told him not to go 

About Consello

Consello is an Advisory and Investing Platform with offices in New York, Miami, Atlanta, Dublin, Belfast, London, Barcelona, Abu Dhabi and Riyadh.

Consello’s distinct advisory practices provide the complete strategic counsel today’s leaders need to grow and transform their organizations. Consello’s advisory expertise spans Corporate Advisory; M&A; Management Consulting; Talent; and Sports and Entertainment. Dedicated teams operate in each practice, led by a leadership group with deep operational experience across industries, business growth stages and market cycles and with an expansive set of global corporate relationships.

Consello’s investment business, Consello Capital, identifies high-potential mid-market companies and invests capital and expertise to transform their growth.

About Grey Matter Host Declan Kelly

Declan Kelly is the Founder, Chairman and CEO of Consello, one of the world's most influential boutique advisory firms. A trusted advisor to dozens of CEOs leading the world's top companies, Mr. Kelly has built or run four global consulting companies over the last three decades prior to founding Consello. Mr. Kelly also served in government as US Economic Envoy to Northern Ireland during the Obama administration.

Transcript

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We all talk about, as athletes, getting into the zone. It's always like, oh, today I just felt great. I couldn't feel my legs. Everything just seemed so clear. I never got tired. I could play all game and I scored three goals. And I don't know what the hell happened. Well, I wanted to know what the hell happened and why I felt that way because I wanted to be able to do that when the pressure was the highest, when the game mattered the most. Welcome to Grey Matter. I'm Declan Kelly, Founder, Chairman and CEO of Consello. I've spent the last 30+ years advising the CEOs who are leading the world's top companies. If there's one thing I've learned in that time, the best leaders think differently. That wiring, that grey matter separates the truly exceptional leaders from everyone else. Understanding it is what allows us a Consello to help the best in the world be even better. This podcast exists because the most accomplished leaders agreed to sit down and talk about something they rarely discussed publicly. How their minds actually work. In my experience, the world's best leaders know that every new chapter demands a different version of themselves. In 1994, I stood in lower Manhattan and watched Mark Messier carry the Stanley Cup down the Canyon of Heroes. By then, he had spent a decade in Edmonton beside Wayne Gretzky, winning four championships. When Gretzky was traded in 1988, Mark became captain, modified his entire game, and won a fifth cup two years later. Then he chose New York, a franchise that hadn't won since 1940 and delivered a championship in his third season. Six Stanley Cups, and each one demanded a different leader than the one before. 30 years after that parade, Mark sat down with me and confirmed that most exceptional leaders are the ones willing to evolve, even at the top of their game. This is Grey Matter. Mark Messier. Welcome to Grey Matter. It's an honor to be here with you. Obviously we've known each other for quite a while. But I've also learned a lot by going back and looking at your career, and what was behind it all. Grey Matter is all about how people think, what makes people the people that they are that enabled them to be great and do what they did. And what I find most fascinating about you is that you were very purposeful about that from a very young age. This is a guy who knew what he was doing all the time. It wasn't an accident that you were very purposeful in the way you presented yourself on ice. And in fact, off the ice. Is that a fair statement? I think I grew to become that. I think I have to really take it back to starting with my family. Obviously, my dad was a hockey player. He was an educator. A master's degree in education. Taught school kids, mentored kids, both on and off the ice. And his teams that he coached. And my mother, obviously, amazing influence. So, for me, I think it really started from my family and in my upbringing. And then having a father who actually played the game of hockey and getting that deep understanding of what responsibilities you have to your team. And what a teammate-- what a good teammate really is. And so I think that really kind of formed the basis. And of course, when I first-- when you first turn pro at 18, I was pretty immature. I actually turned pro when I was 17, which is another whole story. But yeah. I think ultimately in the end I wasn't the same person or the same player as when I first started, my first year of pro at 17. I made a million mistakes. And what you really realize very quickly in sports is that when you aren't accountable, you do make mistakes, a lot of people suffer because of it. And that hit me one day that this is a massive responsibility. Pro hockey. When livelihoods are at stake, people are counting on you to be the best you can be in every form. And that started to change the trajectory of my career and there were some tough lessons along the way. Your father, obviously, was an amazing man. Amazing influence on your life. You wore his number 11 all the time. And as you said, he was a special ed teacher and a hockey player. One of my favorite stories was when he waited in the locker room for some of his teammates because he wanted to fight with them because they didn't fight enough on the ice. Is that a true story? It is a true story. And basically that my dad was a tough right-hand defenseman that not only was a really good all star right-hand defenseman, but he was very tough. And he protected his teammates. The one incident that you're talking about, the other team wasn't too happy with his aggressiveness and they-- a couple guys jumped him. And nobody on his team helped him. And so, he waited in the dressing room till the game was over. And then when they started coming in the dressing room, he started fighting his own teammates. And he basically said, if you're not going to fight with me, you're going to fight me. And the lesson behind it is that you know, and especially back then where intimidation was a massive part of our game. And it was divide and conquer, and the teams that really stuck together could get through that. But if you got separated, teams would basically dismantle you. And so, it was a massive lesson for me in the fact that, you know, good teams, it's a brotherhood. You're never gonna leave anybody behind. You're never going to leave anybody exposed. You're going to protect everybody. It doesn't matter how big or how small you are. You’ve got to get in and do your job and at the expense of being punched in the nose once in a while, but it's a small price to be paid to be laying in bed knowing you didn't help. And that was an important lesson for me as well. You wrote in your book about the 17-hour car rides from Edmonton to Rhododendron in Oregon. There were six of you in the car, including your grandmother, Alice. And you had an English dog called Tootie. Good memory. It was a station wagon. You had Abbey Road and Dionne Warwick playing in the car? Yeah. On repeat. Yeah. And you said in the book that you learned so much in conflict resolution in those journeys to and from Edmonton, which is really interesting. You know, I wasn't thinking about that at the time ‘cause we were so young. But like, looking back on it now, there was a lot happening in a small, confined space over those long drives. I mean, it was over 1,000 miles to drive from Edmonton to Oregon and Rhododendron. There were seven of us, actually, including my grandmother. And the confined space, everybody needing different things, you know, how do you resolve conflict? How do you get what you want, without the detriment of somebody else? And my dad, you know, looking back on it now, you know, he was a schoolteacher. Didn’t have a lot of money. You know, we could only stop once on the trip because he didn’t have enough money for a hotel to stop twice. And kind of get everybody some space and stretch your legs. And he had a time frame of, you know, where he had to meet and certain times. And so, even thinking about it now it’s just so incredible. But, yeah, I think, you know, from what we're listening on the radio to the windows up, the windows down, someone had to stop and go to the bathroom, I mean, it was just on and on and on. But ultimately, in the end, you learn a lot about yourself, obviously. And you learn a lot about your family. But, you know, do you think about even now, you know, I'm 65 looking and thinking back about those incredible memorable experiences and how that now has shaped me and still to this day, the decisions that I make are based off some of those real experiences. You know, that whole sense of discipline that your father had really comes out when you talk about him, but also when you write about him. Obviously, there's a big advantage in having a father and an upbringing as a child where you can learn from the best and know how to do it. On several of your teams you had to change roles depending on what was going on, including in 1990 and other teams as well, ‘94 and so on. And not many people can make that adjustment, either in business, in life, or in sport. But it seems to have been there from a very young age because of what you were surrounded by. Does that make sense? I think it does. I think you're right. I just think that when you're that age, you make immature decisions. It's not that I didn't see what made teams successful. I watched my dad coach a national junior team to a national championship. I was a stick boy. I watched how he interacted with his players. I watched the lessons that he gave them. I watched how he mentored them. I watched how he was tough on them and held them accountable, even to the point where they were mad at him. But they still respected him. And that was a big wake up call for me. As a leader, you have to make hard decisions at the expense of someone maybe not liking you. But ultimately, in the end, if you have enough respect, they'll respect you. Be mad at you. But that's their problem. They’ve got to go home and figure that out yourself. But as a leader, you can't be living, you know, 40-50 lives. And ultimately, in the end, what I realized there that you’ve got to surrender yourself to the benefit of the team at every expense. Whatever that is. Whatever it takes. And the team is the most important thing. It trumps everything. And of course, you know, you play on great teams. I played on some of the greatest teams to ever play. And every player was different. Not every-- you couldn't treat every player the same. I hear all the time, “Well, everybody's the same.” No, not everybody is the same. Everybody needs a different-- they need to be coddled. Some need to be harder on other players. But ultimately, in the end you have to identify the players that are willing to do everything to win. And nothing less will be enough. And I think that some players have it naturally sometimes. Other players don't know they have it and you have to help and teach and mentor towards that. But you have to be able to identify character. And what I saw as a young boy, the amount of character that I saw in that junior team, that national junior team from-- per man, was extraordinary. And then you develop that into what role they need to play. And of course, everybody wants to be the guy scoring the goals. You know? Nobody wants to be playing on the fourth line and having to go out there and fight and protect him. But ultimately, you have to accept the role that's given you for the benefit of the team. And that's basically the concept that I grew up with from a very early age because I saw its success. And that's what I tried to do in my career as a player. And then, ultimately, when I became a leader, that's the kind of culture that I tried to create. Is that everything's for the team. After the Edmonton period and then even in 1990 when you had to take the team and you had to lead it yourself and Gretzky wasn't there and it was all you and you had to do all the things you did, at that moment, were you within yourself conscious of how good you were and how much of an influence you were on the people around you? What was it like to be you at that time? I was conscious of the fact of what role I could play on a team. And what my contributions to the team were. I never really considered myself one of the best players at, like, the highest, elite skilled player, the best player. I never really felt that. But I knew and understood that I could play a pivotal role on a championship team. The dynamics of a team changed every year. We're change out 20 - 25 percent of our roster every year. When Wayne left, that created a massive vacuum in leadership and talent and in everything. And that had to be absorbed by somebody. And collectively we had to do it because not one person can fill that role. So, for me, it was-- I became captain. I knew I couldn't, and I didn't need to change what I was doing in the dressing room as a leader anyways because Wayne and I, we’re very different. And I could continue on, you know, leading the way I was without having to actually change mentally or physically my approach to the game or leadership. I did have to change in my role on the team. I had to become more offensive. But I was aware of that, and it worked. But it only works if you’ve got the people and the players behind you, you know, doing their role and filling their roles and accepting their roles. And then digging in with grit and determination and, you know, just a lot of guts and attitude. And that's why we won that cup in ‘90. We weren't the best team that year. But we had a lot of experience. We had a lot of players that have just incredibly-- an incredible amount of character and heart. That knew how to win. And could overcome so much adversity and, you know, we won our fifth Cup. It was an extraordinary moment for all of us because, you know, you think about losing the best player in the world. How many teams could actually absorb that? And then go on and win another championship? You know, I was reading that when you 19 or 20, you had a transformational experience in your life on a beach. I believe it was in Barbados. You drank some tea, I guess, that was infused with magic mushrooms or something and you didn't know about it. And then it totally gave you almost like a transcendental experience that totally changed the way you thought. Your presence, the intensity that you bring to what you do and that focus, did that whole moment create a sense of peace within you that, you know, meditation and all the other things that allowed you to be ferocious and calm at the same time? I think that is a good way to explain it. For me, what happened in that experience is that I realized how insignificant everything really is, and we all are, in the massive scope of things. Interesting. And how powerful the mind is. If I experience that under a magic mushroom to the point where it un-taps something in me that I had never experienced before, why don't I spend more time on my mind? I'm spending, you know, 95 percent of my time on my body training skills, skating, stick handling, in the weight room, running my body. Why not start to think about this in a different way and start training my mind? And it’s something that I can control. It became a lightning moment for me in a way that there's something more powerful here, if we can tap into it. There's an energy amongst all of us that we can tap into. And there's an energy system that's in there. And there's a spirituality that lives amongst teams. And an energy source. And you have to find that energy source and you have to find its own spirituality amongst every team. Because there has to be something that galvanizes teams together. A common purpose and a goal. Not just because we're all there to win the Stanley Cup because a lot of people are there and motivated differently. And it was something that I realized that I could control. And I could work at it. And if I could win that game, that's going to give me a step up on a lot of players. We all talk about, as athletes, getting into the zone. And why. It's always like, oh, today I just felt great. I couldn't feel my legs. Everything just seemed so clear. I never got tired. I could play all game and I scored three goals. and and And I don't know what the hell happened. Well, I wanted to know know why-- what the hell happened and why I felt that way because I wanted to be able to do that when the pressure was the highest, when the game mattered the most. I wanted to be able to draw that out of me. Whatever that deep level of concentration. Was it how I prepared? What were the things that happened leading up to that for that particular game that I felt that way? And I wanted to be able to recreate that on call. That was my-- that became my mantra. Because I didn't want to underperform in the biggest moments. I didn't want to fail because I wasn't prepared. I didn't want to fail, I never wanted to lose because I wasn't mentally ready or mentally tough enough or, you know, not willing to sacrifice or whatever. That started to drive me from a different perspective. And then what comes of it is really, you know, the gratitude. Because you’ve got to rely on so many people around you. So, gratitude becomes a very, very powerful, you know, equation into the whole thing. And do you still maintain that level of focus and attention to all of that today? Yeah. That’s still a part of your life? A thousand percent in everything I do. Even when I golf. I mean, it's easy just to, you know, “I don't feel good today. I’m not playing well today.” Well, do something about it. So, you still practice meditation and still focus on all these things that way? I think for me it's, I think for me, in everything I do, because it doesn't have to be a-- it's not like you have to sit in a lotus position. You can meditate in everything you do. Everything has to be present. You have to be-- you have to be aware, and you have to be in whatever you're doing. Do you see in the players of today or even the businesspeople you deal with a lot of that? Because I-- you know, I don't think the purposefulness of it exists as much as it exhibited itself in you. I think there's more people that are aware something like this exists. Right. And I think there's more people that have actually tapped into it, and there's more opportunities for them to learn about it with social media, with all this amount of information that we're being fed if you're interested in it. And then it's really up to you how you want to absorb that. And you have to be curious. You know, I only speak as a professional athlete. I mean, I never-- there was never a day that I thought I made it or I could rest on my laurels or, you know, I didn't have to work or, you know, harder or-- I mean, I played for 26 years terrified. You know what I mean? But you actually use that as a fuel source. Not fear, because fear obviously will paralyze you. But I used it as a motivational opportunity to be better and to learn more. And that's why I was able to play 26 years because every game, every practice was a new opportunity to get to know myself better. And how I could become better. What's different though is that it was over 40 years ago. And so, the fact that you were able to do it then when nobody else had social media. Didn't have anything like this. The ability to make the music stop and in the most epic of moments, the call during the Stanley Cup final, and to be that present and aware. You know, I read somewhere you fought over 100 times on the ice. Right? I think that's the stat I saw. Or, you know, you drop your stick and go at it, right? Right? And meanwhile, we have a guy who's inside calm. You know, I was willing to do anything to win. Because that was the purpose of why we’re there. And at sometimes it was a little bit shocking to me of how far I would go in order to-- what I'd do what I thought was important to do. And you know, nowadays it probably wouldn't be as acceptable. And I-- there was moments there that I realized that I don't know where my ceiling or bar was of how far I would go. And that sometimes can be kind of alarming and shocking. But, you know, I played the game to win. You know, there's a great story that you've told. 1983 and losing to the Islanders. And walking past the locker room and in that locker room were a bunch of men who were deflated. They were drinking beer and nursing their wounds and they weren’t celebrating. It's amazing to watch you write about that. It's such a lesson, right? What I witnessed, Wayne and I as we walked by there, what I witnessed is how depleted they were from winning four Stanley Cups in a row. And how much they had to give in order to win that fourth one against us. We were much younger, stronger, healthier and they still had the guile and the heart and the courage to get out there and bandaged up with duct tape and whatever else and managed to somehow galvanize and knew how to play and knew how to win. And there was a massive lesson in there. You’ve got to understand what it takes to win. And then how to win. And we were good. We were, you know, we were really good. But we weren't quite there in that level and it was just such a-- it was just such a wow, these guys, you know, we have to-- we have to start blocking shots. We have-- we weren't giving enough. Ultimately, in the end, we weren't giving enough. And if we’re going to take that next step that we had to give more-- there was more for us to give. And that was what that signified to me is that, we have way more to give. And they were our greatest teacher. Right in front of us. And when you came back in ‘84 and beat the same team, right, and had the breakthrough, do you feel like you made massive adjustments in that area between ’83 and ‘84? Was that a major factor? They forced us to make adjustments in the way we played, the way we defended, the amount of details on the defensive side, blocking shots, playing with more courage, not being so stubborn, trying to win and outscore our mistakes. It forced us to change. The game forced us to change. If we were going to win, we had to be able to change. And what was really interesting to me is that so now they're bandaged up after the fourth Cup. Now we’re playing them again. Now they're going for five in a row. So, you can only imagine you have to play 82 more games. Go through three rounds of tough hockey. Only to get to the finals. Now you can imagine how depleted they are. And I'm telling you, it was like wrestling a steer trying to get that Stanley Cup away from them. It was incredible how hard they hung onto that with their last breath and their fingers clenched to that cup. And we're trying to peel each finger off that cup and get it away from them. And the heart, the courage that they displayed was just so inspiring to us, even though we're trying to kick their asses. It was a million lessons in that for us that, wow, these guys, you know, four Stanley Cups in a row, the courage and the heart that they played with, the amount of respect they had for each other. You know, they’re teachers. They were basically, you know, they’re our teacher right in front of us. We had to go through them to get it. We were able to play them three times. And ultimately before we were able to beat them. So-- And when you did, of course, then you began your own dynasty, which of course was remarkable. And when I, again, look at the tapes, the physical toll, like the violence, the actual way the game was played. In 1984 you were knocked unconscious. More than one time. Well I saw the tape. You were literally out. And then ‘84 and ’90 in particular, I know you played through incredible pain thresholds to sort of be on both of those teams and win. Do you ever think back about the insanity of it all, now compared to now? I think-- we don't really know our limits until you're able-- until you're willing to explore that, where that is. And I don't know if I could play through pain until, you know, your players are looking at you, your teammates are looking at you. Are you playing? Like, well, I guess I'm playing. And, you know, it was all exploratory. And ultimately in the end, what you realize, you’ve got such a massive deep sense of respect for the guys that are sitting next to you, you don't want to let ‘em down. And you're willing to do anything to help the cause. And you also have to-- and I will say that you have to be willing to accept the criticism that comes with you when you do play hurt. Because sometimes it's not so much the physical pain. That's interesting. That you have to endure when you're-- to play hurt. You also have to be willing to take the criticisms that come along with it because you're not playing up to your standard. But can you play-- still play a big enough role to help the team, even though you're not playing at your highest level? So, there's really kind of the balance that you're looking at. And ultimately, in the end, when you lose, and you play, and you don't perform, nobody cares if you were hurt. And so, you have to be willing to accept that. You have to be strong enough mentally to absorb that and understand for yourself what you played through, why you weren't, but were you still able to contribute to the team's success? And so that kind of gets mirrored sometimes with players that are willing to play with more pain than others. Of course, some players have an incredible amount of pain threshold and are willing to get their mind mentally in a place where they can forget about it and then still, you know, be willing to accept the criticism. So it's a double whammy. Do you ever go back and look at any of these tapes anymore? You don't bother? Well, my son reminds me all the time of some stuff that happened way back then. So he's very fascinated. Actually, you know, all my kids, my older son Douglas, my daughter. It was definitely tough hockey. But it was the era that I grew up in too. My most impressionable years, the Philadelphia Flyers were basically beating the crap out of the whole league. And they went on to win 72 Cups in a row, ‘73/’74.‘74/’75. And they were kind of redefining how the game was played. And what's interesting to that is that the way they were playing was the way my dad was coaching his junior team. And so, when I was a stick boy, I saw how galvanized these teams had to be so they weren't divided and conquered. And of course, when you start a playoff series, where do you start? You try to tear the heart out of the other team. And who is the heart of the other team? It is divide and conquer. And so, how-- you know? And if you don't have a good enough team and a tough enough team and a resilient enough team with enough character, you are going to be divided and conquered. And so, that becomes the struggle. And then when you’ve got two teams that are equally as determined and equally as tough and as equally as skilled, then you can imagine the amount of-- Mayhem. Conflict and mayhem and nobody's giving an inch. So then you got these massive clashes in test of wills. And we always used to say, you might as well get out there and go for it ‘cause there's no place to hide on the ice. Right. You know? We’d go into some of these buildings there and, you know, the players didn't want to play. It was going to be tough. You know, you had to suck it up. There was no hiding. You know what I mean? And then once you're exposed, you're exposed the rest of your career. So, I mean, it was like that.‘90 and ’94, ‘90 because Gretzky was gone, and ’94 because it was against all odds. Those two victories, was there something different about those two, because you had to be the leader? Most of us grow up wanting to win a Stanley Cup. Most hockey players. Some players in Europe grow up wanting to win a world championship or an Olympic gold medal. When I was 18 and I realized that I had a chance to-- or 17, I played pro, got drafted by Oilers, I had a chance. I was just trying to make the team. You make the team and then you figure out, wow, now I’ve got to figure out-- now I’ve made the team, now what's next? And then you kind of go through this. Pretty soon you've, you know, you’ve got a new contract. You made the team. You're an NHL player. Well, what's left is to win. And we were able to do that five years in an expansion team. And it was a dream come true in 1984. And then the success that followed. And ‘90 brought a whole ’nother set of circumstances to what you're talking about is because we were basically a dynasty in the making and we traded away the world’s greatest player. Well, what does that mean? And so, we have a summer to regroup and, you know, we're mad at the organization. We're mad at the owner. We’re mad at everybody because they traded our-- not only our teammate, but our brother. And you know, what we realized is that there's a-- we’ve got a responsibility to each other most importantly we’ve got a responsibility to the fanbase and the city that have supported us. So, we have to man up now. And we have to play. And two years later, we’re able to win that cup. And in 1990 because of the things that I talked about earlier. And the players and the courage that they played with and the experience. In ‘94, you go to the original six team. 54 years. Generations of fans that had cheered the team and relationships driven by the Rangers. And brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, grandfathers that experienced games together. And the enormity of playing on an original six team with that much history was incredibly powerful. And then two, three years later, to win a Stanley Cup with all the things that were, you know, the secondary storylines and the history and all that stuff, it was a surreal experience. Became bigger than hockey in some ways. It transcended the game. And so, you know, when you think about the first Cup, dream come true, you know, the ‘90 Cup, there were so many different storylines. And then the ’94 Cup, what that really represented to so many people and to be a part of that. To make that a reality. It was a completely different experience than all the Cups. And you're right, ‘94 was life altering in so many different ways. When Keenan got there in the training camp, he showed us a ticker tape parade of the Mets down the Canyon of Heroes.“You know? This could be you.” And do you know why he showed the ‘86 Mets, because there wasn't any footage of any Ranger team going down the Canyon of Heroes. It’d been that long. And so, you know, you get some perspective of all that of what it really meant. But the opportunity that was there for us if we could figure out a way to you know, come together and make it happen. Which we did. Which is, to this day, here we are, you know, almost how many years now? Still talking about it. You won the Stanley Cup on June 14th, 1994. I was in New York that night. And I was trying to get a ticket, and I couldn't get a ticket. And I was supposed to leave two days later. And I'd never seen a ticker tape parade. So, on the 17th June in New York I stood there on the side of the street-- Did you really? Swear to God. That's amazing. And watched you bring that thing down the Canyon of Heroes. That's a true story. Wow. It still, even as I talk about it right now, and I had nothing to do with it except turn up on the street. Yeah. The hair stands on the back of my head. It was one of the most iconic moments in the history of sport. No matter what else you do in your life, it must give you an amazing feeling to know that you brought so much happiness to so many people. It is one of the most, you know, reflecting back and still seeing people on the street saying thank you and people from different walks of life that you would never expect them to recognize myself or have an experience around that, is incredibly gratifying. It's amazing to me, actually, to be sitting in the back of the cab and look at the guy looking through the rearview mirror and, “MESSIER” you know? But I think what really more than stands out is what's possible. What's possible when you work together. What's possible when you create a culture that's conducive to excellence and holding people accountable without the fear of resentment. It was just such an amazing time. And, you know, you think about the players that were there for it. And their contributions. And willingly accepting the role. And nothing else mattered. It was just one of those-- it was really one of those times where if you could draw it up, you would. But you could never draw it up because you'd never know it would be that possible, the way it happened for us. It was just incredible. You've obviously gone on to have a very successful business career. Your whole Game 7 business. You've written your book and you've got your documentary series, and you're involved in a whole range of different things. What was the biggest change for you when you stopped playing? Were you able to just do it that way? Or did you find that you had to adjust yourself? Because, you know, you've been very successful and you're doing great things. But it's hard to do that. Even if you're a great athlete. Yeah. Well, I think if you look at just from a hockey perspective how many hours I spent playing hockey and perfecting the skills and perfecting, you know, trying to work on the mental side of the game and all that. And the nuances of the game and all that kind of stuff. You know, entering into the business sector, I mean, I didn't know any of that. I thought I was in the hockey business for 26 years. And the reality is, is that in business you're dealing with people. And when I started getting into boardrooms and having meetings and all that, I could-- it was interesting for me because without even understanding, even asking myself what to look for, I was feeling energy and ego and all the things that are destructive to cultures. It doesn't matter if it's in an office space or in the dressing room. It's the same. And I was very aware of what I felt when I left some of those meetings. Whether positively or negatively. And it really kind of led me to believe that perhaps my instincts were going to be okay. And understanding, you know, the dynamics of people. Whether it's business or sport or to coach or whatever. And then what you really realize is that you want to surround yourself with great people. I would have never had success that I had if I hadn't been surrounded by great people. And as a player, which is really interesting, is that sometimes you have no control of who you're surrounded by. Which is terrifying. And at the same time, a massive responsibility because I still have to bring those players into the fold and give them every opportunity to be a part of the team. But in business, I can choose because now I'm the master of my own destiny of who and what I want to do. And who I want to be involved with. And so, I think having that understanding and having the instincts of people, I think, has benefited me because I realized that without that relationship driven dynamic, I’m not sure if you can be successful. Maybe you can. I don't know. But I only know one way. You were drafted number 48 in 1979. Next year it'll be 48 years since that happened. Yeah. When you think back to all the various things that you've achieved in your life and that 17 or 18-year-old kid who entered the world not knowing what the hell was going on, and now look back at it, what are your reflections on your life if you ever pause to think about it? I think for every athlete, that's an amazing question. Because there's just-- and I say it and I said it when I retired, I said it in my retirement jersey. I think you just start to reflect and gratitude is the name and the world that comes to my mind immediately. And one of the reasons why I named my book No One Wins Alone. I can't imagine I would be the same person without those incredible experiences being with people and trying to figure out how to collectively work together towards a common goal. I think for me, those are the most powerful experiences. It’s not easy working with people and trying to find people that are just as focused, want to win just as bad, maybe for a different reason. Doesn't matter because we can all be motivated for different reasons. But what are we inspired about? What inspires us to collectively come together and march hand-in-hand towards a common goal. And I think those powerful experiences that I had are the things I look back on, you know, 48 years later. And all of the mistakes that I made along the way and the equity that you build, so you're forgiven as a leader. Any mistake that you've made was not something you did by being malicious or anything. You maybe miscalculated what needed to be done at a certain time. But you try to build up, you know, personal equity of everybody so that you can, you know, move on from it. And course correct immediately. Acknowledge the mistake and move on. That's a lot of lessons being learned in 48 years, right? Like, but that's the beauty of the sport. That's the beauty of a team sport. And that's why, you know, when you're able to win a championship collectively together, whether baseball, football, any team sport, there's not someone that would sit in front of this camera and say they didn't have those same kinds of experiences there because you can't win without it. Okay, Mark. This segment of the show is called The Uncharted Path. Biggest influence on your life. Obviously, was your father. Other than him, who was it? Off the top of my head right away I'm gonna say Muhammad Ali. I was a massive Muhammad Ali fan. I just loved everything about him. I loved that he stood for something. I loved that he was the most recognized face on the planet. I loved when-- I used to watch him go around the country and the way he treated kids. I got to meet him. My uncle worked with him. I got to go to his house. Oh, wow. It was a dream come true to meet your childhood idol. And for him to be bigger than life in your mind and then to see him in person, it was just the most incredible experience. Tell me something about you that nobody knows. I grew up hunting and fishing, and I chased marlin around the world for 30 years. I love to golf. I love to play every sport. I love to cook. We cook a lot. Best piece of advice anyone ever gave you? Good self talk. I think it was the most important thing that-- lesson that I learned. I think far too often, even now when I hear interviews and I hear these young athletes and the way they talk about themselves, we did a power of positive thinking course early in my career, my first training camp. It was six-- three days of six-hour sessions and it was focused around great, positive thinking. Great self talk. Setting short and long-term goals. I might have been able-- I didn't do it. I can do it. Now I'll figure out how to do it. What's one piece of advice you were given that you ignored and really glad you did? That's a great question. Like for example did anyone tell you, “Don't go to New York, that's a really bad idea?” I did actually hear that. The pressure was going to be too much. The organization 54, at that time, 51 years. The media. You know, what's going to happen if you go there and you don't win, you're expecting to win. And I looked at it as an incredible opportunity to play for an original six team. But that is something I did hear. And I said I know exactly-- there's only one place that I want to go play in this league, and that's New York City. I want to play for the New York Rangers. I want to experience everything that New York has to offer while I'm playing hockey there and try to win a Stanley Cup. And sure enough, we were able to do that ‘94. When that final whistle blew, what went through your head? ‘94. We did it. Literally, it was like a three-year journey of failure and success, disappointment, heartache, being celebrated and then being ostracized and kicked out of the city because we didn't win, only to go on the third year and ultimately win. It was a roller coaster of emotions. It was a roller coaster of excitement, disappointment. And ultimately, we went on. And when that final buzzer went, I’ll always remember my first game ever at the Garden, they introduced all the former captains lined up on the ice. And they introduced me. And I went out there and I shook all the former captains, and I was looking around the Madison Square Garden. I go, “This is-- what I-- maybe they're right. Maybe I shouldn’t-- this is a big responsibility.” And I'll never forget it. When the final buzzer went, I just felt so incredibly happy for all those people and the fanbase that had been so loyal and had welcomed me in there to that first night in Madison Square Garden. And even though we had some rough times along the way, especially the second year when we didn't even make the playoffs and then running it back the third year, I was just so happy that we were able to deliver that Stanley Cup in three years. How would you like to be remembered? Oh God. That's such an amazing question. I really like the idea that with this new science behind longevity that we might have another-- Might live forever. You might get to play again. I might be 150-- that's-- I would do it actually. I know you would. I would actually do it. I'd be the first 100-year-old centerman in the National Hockey League. Oh, I’d take a swing at that right now if you could sign me up for that. Oh my God. Do you ever go on the ice? Do you still go on the ice? Yeah, sure. You do? Sure, I do. Yeah, I love it. Just for fun? Oh. I love it. I love playing hockey. Hockey’s the best game. But to answer your question, I don't really know. I don't necessarily ever really think in those terms. I do want to be known obviously, because of what happened on the ice. Great teammate, all those kinds of things. But you know ultimately in the end, it's not what you got it’s what you gave back and how you pay it forward. The life lessons that you can help, you know, other boys and girls, you know, achieve their successes. That's just as important for me now. Especially in retirement. When I understood how many people actually helped me along the way when I wasn't making such great decisions and how many people that I learned from and how many mentors that helped me get to the point of making good decisions and being able to become a leader that people would follow, you know, that, to me, is something that if I can pay that forward to young boys and girls, that's well worth it. Well, you're a hero and an icon to so many people. You're an even better person in person. Thank you. And I really, really am glad to be your friend and I really appreciate you taking the time. I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it, yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much.