Ep 52. Why Punishment Doesn't Work: Sam Straub and Dr. Melissa Wellner on Moving From Control to Connection With Your Teen

In today's episode I'm joined by Dr. Melissa Wellner, a double board certified adolescent psychiatrist, and Samantha Straub, a licensed therapist, educator, and parenting coach and founder of Teen Savvy Coaching. Together they co-host the podcast Parenting Shrink Wrapped, and they brought so much wisdom and lived experience to this conversation, both as clinicians and as moms themselves. This was such a rich discussion, and I know you're going to walk away with a lot from it.

Here's what we cover:

• The real difference between discipline and punishment, and why those words get used interchangeably even though they're not the same thing
• Why punishment tends to teach kids to hide their mistakes or lie instead of actually learning from them
• Sam's simple framework for figuring out what's actually needed in a moment: safety, values, or skills
• Why discipline has to evolve as your child moves through different developmental stages, and why what worked last month might not work now
• How to regulate your own emotions in the heat of the moment so you can come back and actually teach instead of react
• What to do when your teen pushes back or refuses to engage with the repair process
• How to move from a control mindset to a teaching mindset, and why starting small matters
• Why relationship is the foundation that makes all of this possible, especially with a resistant teen
• The one shift both Melissa and Sam want every parent to walk away with

This episode is for any parent trying to hold boundaries and accountability without sacrificing connection and trust with their teen.

Connect with Samantha Straub / Teen Savvy Coaching:
Website: teensavvycoaching.com
Facebook: @TeenSavvyCoachingWithSamanthaStraub
Instagram: @teensavvycoaching

Connect with Dr. Melissa Wellner / Annapolis Psychiatry:
Website: annapolispsychiatry.com
Facebook: Annapolis Psychiatry

Parenting Shrink Wrapped (Melissa & Sam's podcast):
Instagram: @parentingshrinkwrapped
Facebook: facebook.com/parentingshrinkwrapped
YouTube: @ParentingShrinkWrapped

Connect with Jasmyne:
Instagram: @jasmyne.guidedpassages
🔗 https://guided-passages.com/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think another big parenting thing is if you mess up, if you say the wrong thing in the moment because you're heated, own it. We all mess up. We've all said the wrong thing. We've all responded in the moment the wrong way. We acted on our own emotions or dysregulation. Come back and apologize and own it and say, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. That came out wrong. Own your mistake to your kid and show them that you're human and you mess up too. Because that also and then change. You need to learn, you need to learn and react differently yourself, but it also helps to own it so that your teen also recognizes that you recognize that you messed up too. And maybe you both messed up. And that's okay. And you can repair and rebuild.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Welcome to Parents and Teens Rising, the podcast that bridges the gap between parents and teens and helps families thrive. I'm Jasmine Chandler, Teen and Parent Coach, Wilderness Rights of Passage Guide, and founder of Guided Passages. After over 16 years of working with young people, I know how challenging and rewarding these years can be. Each week we'll explore real conversations, practical tools, and fresh perspectives to help you connect with your team, support their confidence, and navigate the ups and downs. Let's rise together. Hey everyone, and welcome back into the podcast. If you're new here, you are in for a treat. I'm bringing in some guests today who have so much wisdom to share. I'm excited to announce that today my conversation is with Dr. Melissa Wellner and Samantha Straub, who both co-host the podcast Parenting Shrink Rat. And it was such a wonderful conversation. I learned so many wonderful gems from them, and I know you're going to take away a lot as well. And just to give you a little bit of information about who they are and all of their qualifications, Melissa is a double board certified and adolescent psychiatrist, and she brings this incredible depth of clinical expertise to the everyday realities of raising kids. She is a mother herself as well, and she pairs all of that professional training with genuine warmth and humor as she talks about everything from toddler meltdowns to teen drama. And Samantha is a licensed therapist, educator, and parenting coach, and she's the founder of Teen Savvy Coaching, where she works directly with families to build stronger communication and healthier routines at home. She is a mother of two and she brings such a relatable, in-the-trenches perspective, blending real life stories with practical research-backed strategies. Their show has built such a loyal following for covering topics like discipline versus punishment, teen mental health, screen time, family finances, and parent burnout. All with this perfect mix of expertise and humor. I was actually a guest on their podcast just a few weeks back, too, so keep an eye out for that episode as well. And so with all of that said, let's go ahead and dive into this awesome episode today. I can't wait to share with you. All right. Hello, Sam and Melissa. I am so excited to have you guys on the podcast, especially after I was able to guest on yours a few weeks back. So this is so exciting to bring you in here, and I get to ask the questions this time. So welcome in.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Thank you. Thank you for having us, Jasmine.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

You're so welcome. So I was perusing through your podcast, which is called Parenting Shrink Wrapped, and you have just a wealth of topics that you all cover. And as I expressed in the bio, we have a psychiatrist and a therapist and coach, and you guys work with adolescents and children and teenagers. So right up the alley of our listeners here today and bringing just a wealth of experience, not only as moms, but also in the field as coaches and therapists and educators and all the things that you have done over the years and your careers. And so I was looking through your episodes and thinking about like, gosh, what would I really like to talk with them about today? And what I came upon was one of your episodes, I believe it was your episode number 10. So way back when, but you were talking about this idea of the difference between discipline and punishment, which is something that I talk to parents that I coach all the time as well, because parents have this fine balance that they're trying to navigate of having some boundaries and having limits and holding their kids accountable to things in a way that still fosters connection and trust and actually works to help them develop their character and all the things without sabotaging the relationship. And so I knew that both of you would have some amazing things to share today. So just wanted to bring that topic in about, you know, the differences between discipline and punishment and what parents should really do. And so I guess I can just start with my first question today was how would you each define the difference between discipline and punishment?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

I think one of the main things that both Sam and I focus on is that discipline is a teachable moment. Punishment inflicts pain. The goal of the two are different, and I think sometimes they're used inappropriately in everyday language, like my kid got punished. The goal, though, isn't to inflict pain on your child. The goal is your child to learn from that experience that, like, oh hey, I shouldn't do that again, or that was wrong. So it implies different things. And I think in everyday language, those words get used interchangeably, but they're not actually interchangeable.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah, I'd agree too. Yeah, disciple means student. So administering discipline means you are a teacher. If your goal is to teach, and it ought to be, because we need to administer discipline when our child has made a mistake, usually, or failed to live up to an expectation, those are the reasons we discipline. If all we do is invoke pain or remove pleasure, because that's punishment. Punishment is removing pleasure or invoking pain. And we think, well, let me think about the size pain that I or someone else felt because of that failure to live up to the expectation or mistake. And I will create an experience that is the same amount of pain for my kid. And we hope that that's going to be the thing that teaches them how to behave differently in the next iteration of the situation. That's just a cross your fingers and hope approach. There's no actual teaching that goes on there. So all that is is your kid learns, my parents in charge, they're going to come down on me if I make a mistake. And so they learn to hide their mistakes. Or lie. They lie. That's what I mean. That's yeah. So so discipline is teaching. And I have some ways that I talk to the parents that I work with about how to conceive of what to teach, because that can be hard when you're like, but it was a big mistake, right? Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Well, your own emotions are running high as a parent when your kid has done something wrong. Your own nervous system is going to be activated in some way when your kid disobeys you or makes a big mistake, doesn't live up to an expectation. You have to recognize your own feelings and emotions in that moment as well, and not just act on emotions.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Easier said than done.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Much easier said than done. And I've definitely screwed up plenty doing so with my own kids. But at the end of the day, that's what really needs to happen to actually be effective. Just punishment overall in the long run isn't gonna be effective. It's just gonna teach a kid to lie or kind of sneak or do something else to avoid punishment and they don't learn from it.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

And it doesn't really work so great with teenagers because in order to like put the guardrails that you need to put up to keep them in whatever line you think they need to be kept in, there needs to be some participation from them in order for them to walk the straight line. If all you're doing is depending on you putting up stronger and stronger guardrails, they're just gonna slam into you over and over again and it's gonna hurt you. And what are they learning? In order to progress, I just slam into things that don't feel good to me, right? Theirs is not how we want them to go through life. We want them to internalize decision-making skills. So I that's how I conceive of discipline. It's a reaction or it's proactive, and it's helping to internalize strong decision-making skills.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Uh-huh. Wow. Yeah. Just those definitions alone are such a beautiful place to start for sure. Because I think so many of us, and as you've even expressed, Melissa, it's like in the heat of the moment, we've all, as parents, had these moments where we lashed out out of reaction when we were shocked that they did something that we didn't want them to do and then slammed down a massive punishment. I'm taking away your iPad for the rest of the year, or you're grounded for life, or these things that, you know, A, we can't uphold because they're totally so astronomical and huge. We could never hold the limit that we just set. But B, so much of it comes from this reactive state from us because we haven't taken time to pause and calm ourselves down before we actually can think through what the best outcome is or how to handle the situation.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Also, if you don't have a framework for it and all you feel is upset and worried that your teen is going down a wrong path or your child is going down a wrong path, and you don't have a framework for how to administer discipline, then you're just throwing spaghetti at the wall and you're gonna lead with what feels like it's the most important thing to do, which is to regulate the moment. And so I understand perfectly why we lose our cool or why we come down hard. Because what the North Star is we don't want this to happen again. That's the North Star. So the intentions are good, I guess is what I'm saying. And sometimes parents are even willing to sacrifice their relationship with their kid for the goal of their kid becoming who they know they can be, right? I will sacrifice my connection with you right now if I think it's going to keep you from making this mistake again in the future. But teaching goes best when it's in relationship. So I think discipline is a relationship-based way of guiding. And punishment is often I'm inflicting pain and you manage it by yourself. That's usually how it goes.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

And also, too, though, your relationship with your child is changing based on the developmental stage of where your child is at, and that discipline is gonna look different if I've got an oppositional toddler versus a 16-year-old. Good point. Those that discipline can't be the same. So what worked in one developmental stage a week later could change because your kid entered a different developmental stage, and now you have to figure out how that relationship has changed, and then what is also then an effective discipline technique for this new stage. So as the parent, you also have to constantly be on your toes, learning and figuring it out and fostering the ongoing relationship with your child through the years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

I know that's been one of the hardest parts about parenting. You just feel like you figured something out and you're like, I've got it, I'm rocking it. And then like next week, they're totally different and entirely different set of circumstances and behaviors and ways that we need to respond to it. So yeah, such a good point. Well, I'm curious, Sam, you mentioned this framework for discipline. And for me, as a parent who's always trying to take it to the next level or do it better, right? And I'm sure that's what our listeners are out there doing too, is why they're listening because they're always trying to do it better as well. Tell us the secret sauce. It sounds like you figured something out that we would all like to know.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

I'll tell you how I break it down. Imagine a triangle, and at the top point of the triangle is the word safety. That's the, of course, highest priority for when you need to step in and teach, administer discipline. If there's a safety issue, and that might mean barring the way. That might mean putting up a guardrail, right? In the moment. And then explaining later why you did so if you don't have the time in that moment. Beneath safety and even with one another, the two bottom points are the triangle are values and skills. You want to be teaching your children values that you want them to use to make decisions later in life so that they're not dependent on a set of circumstantial rules. As they grow in moral development, they learn, well, what is right? What is generally right in this situation? What do I prioritize? And values is where we learn that. And then there's skills that kids need to learn: skills like social skills or being on time for things or managing your belongings or saying you're sorry, or like there's lots of skills. And so when we administer discipline, when there's been a misstep, we need to ask ourselves: is this a safety concern? Is this a values issue? My kid failed to live up to values, and do I need to emphasize the values? Or are there some deficits in skills? And when you know the answer to those things, then you design a consequence, and I don't mean punishment. I design a consequence that is meant to teach safety reminders, skills or reinforce values. And when you think of it like that, all I need to wonder is which of these three things is at hand? Safety values or skills? Or sometimes it's a combo platter. And then step back and be like, okay, well, what's the problem? Name it, and then state to your child, this is the issue. It's a safety issue, or these are the values you didn't show up with, or this is a skill that I thought you had, but you didn't show in this moment, or I didn't realize you didn't have, so I need to teach it to you. And I'm gonna take responsibility for that deficit, which is again not punishment. That's me being like, gosh, didn't realize you needed that skill. Sorry I didn't equip you with it. So I'm going to teach it to you. And that teaching isn't always comfortable. The teaching might be like the kid has to dedicate time they didn't feel like dedicating to learning this skill or embodying this value, but that's not always comfortable. And a kid might see that as a punishment, but it's not, it's a lesson.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

So that's my framework. Safety, skills, and values.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

I love that. I love that. It's so so simple. And yeah, it just makes so much sense for sure. And I'm imagining because I know for myself, if my teenager has done something that's upset me, like they've had some attitude, or they didn't do a chore, or they cussed at their sister or whatever, right? Whatever it is, in that moment, I might feel like, A, I need to like resolve this right now, and B, I need to teach them right now. And so in this heightened moment where everyone is upset for some reason, whatever happened, yeah, that's when our inclination often is to go in and write in that moment and try to teach. And I'm wondering, how do you which I know, which I know does not work, right? I know that's the absolute worst thing that I can do because A, it's just gonna make everyone up more upset and no one's gonna hear me. It's not gonna work. They're not gonna learn anything in that moment. And so, how do you advise parents in that moment to take care of their own emotions and take that space so that they can come back more effectively?

SPEAKER_02 14:35

I say label what's going on and then take a break. And the labeling is really important because then it's giving words to the reasoning behind your behavior. So sometimes we forget to label and we'll just be and we think in our head, you know what, she just cussed at her sister. I need to address that, but I'm not gonna do it right now because she's hot and I'm hot and this isn't gonna go very well. So I'm just gonna not engage in that. I'm not gonna do anything about it right now. And what the kid hears is nothing. Like all that went on in your head. And the kid's like, I just cussed at my sister and my mom is doing nothing. Imagine that. Like, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

That's permission to keep going.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Well, right then, this isn't okay in my house, like, huh. So if you know your kid's gonna respond poorly and you're gonna handle it poorly, if you can stay regulated enough to narrate what just happened in your head, which is listen, I know I'm too hot to handle this and so are you. We will return to this, but not until we're calmer. I'm taking a little break and I'm giving you the opportunity to do that too. Boom, that's it. You put a pin in it.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

I would personally say that is not appropriate language. We're going to discuss this later. Sure. Because sometimes, too, that way, I think, particularly in like the tween years, I don't even know if tweens kind of recognize always in the moment, like why a parent might be getting upset depending on the kid. So saying nothing like how Sam initially described, that's definitely gonna go right over their heads. Right over their heads.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Let's just take the kid, the sister cussing at a sibling. A, you don't want to tolerate the cussing. But I'm also like, what was going on that made that kid cuss at her sister? And we want to get curious about that. We don't have to say it's fine for you to cuss at your sister, but the skill that that kid may need to learn is how do I have a big distressing emotion without cussing about it or cussing all over someone else? Right? Like that may be the skill. And so when you go back to talk about it, it's okay, well, first of all, we need to mend that relationship. You probably owe your sister an apology, but what were you upset about? Well, let's talk about is that a valid thing to be upset about? Yeah, I'm sorry that happened. We could validate that like that was an upsetting thing. Oh, she did that to you? Yep, I get why you were mad. In fact, I'll intervene on that one on your behalf. Right. I can't have you cussing though. What's a different way to handle this moving forward? Right? Like, so that's relationship-based. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 16:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

And that's a skill. That's a skill, right? So teaching kids what to do with big emotions and how do you respond when their fight or flight automatic nervous system kind of sent them into this state? How do they handle that? What does that feel like in the body? But then what do I do with that feeling?

SPEAKER_02 17:10

And that's not easy for teenagers, as you know, Jasmine.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Like you work with easy for some adults, Sam.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

I'm curious though, I can almost hear some parents saying, Yeah, but what if I've calmed myself down, I come back later, we have this conversation, and I go to give the discipline, whatever that is, like how they're gonna repair this or a teaching moment, and then they still push back and they refuse to do it and they're so defiant, and they no matter what I say, they're just still pushing. So they need to be punished. Like that's the only thing that's gonna get through to them if I take something from them or whatever it is, right? So what would you say in situations like that where the teen is not receptive to the discipline?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

I would go back to narrating and I would still go back to the skills, values, and safety, because right now the value not being espoused is listening and repairing after a conflict. And if that's a value your family holds in high regard, the kid is not following through. So the consequence may be listen, I don't want to do this. I'm trying to repair, you're not engaging with me, you're giving me the cold shoulder, you're shutting me out, whatever it is, whatever the kid's behavior is. The expectation is that we will come together on this because I can't let what happened just sit. It wasn't all right. We need to process this in some form, can be minor, but your disengagement is showing me you're not interested in doing that right now. So this must happen. It can happen now, it can happen an hour from now, but if it doesn't happen today, there will be restrictions on your ability to go do stuff you prefer until you confront this thing you don't prefer. And that may feel like a punishment to the kid, but it's not. The teacher is like, I'm forcing you to stay in the lesson. That's what that is. I'm forcing you to stay in the lesson. I don't think that's a punishment. It's a greater restriction, but it's warranted if your kid is not espousing the values, skills, or safety measures you need from them.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

And I think that second step that Sam is describing when you've gotten pushback when you're trying to repair, is even a harder skill than the initial because you've regulated your own emotions, you are trying, and then you're still getting pushback. And that's where I see parents like they get through the first phase, and it's when that second or repetitive, like continued pushback, that's when the parent then ends up exploding because they can't manage their own emotions. So it also may be a situation where a parent needs to like take a step away again, still within the framework, but continue to revisit. But they may need another, like, I'm gonna take a breather here, because I think that second step ends up causing emotions to be even higher and more explosive as a parent.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

And I'm also gonna just say, this is so hard. I've been doing this for 30 years, and so my toolbox for language in these situations with resistant kids is very deep. And most parents are not, and so if you're like, I went in with my best freaking tool, and you it didn't, it didn't work. Like I had plan A, and now it's blowing up in my face, and I don't have plan B. And you can take that out on the kid, but really it's just a I don't know how to pivot yet. And there are so many ways to roll with resistant teens. The foundational element to be able to engage with resistant teens, though, is a strong relationship when there isn't a problem. Ugh, yeah, right there.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Building that connection from when they're young into the teenage years and continuing in the teenage years is super, super important. That connection is the foundation to be able to discipline a teen.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Wow. I mean, I think what you just said is so powerful because I think that as kids transition into adolescents and teenage years, sometimes parents really lose that because the kids start pushing limits like they're supposed to developmentally. It's part of their wiring to push boundaries and individuate and do things like that. But as that happens, so many parents don't know how to maintain the connection. And as their teenagers are changing and having different interests, that maybe it's harder to engage with. When they were little, we could easily take them to the park and to the splash pad and to their music lesson and all the things and play Uno with them for hours. And it's like now they don't want to do those things. And so parents have a hard time holding on to that connection, and then they're trying to hold these guardrails, and it's just everything can really go south so fast, it feels like, as the the tween and teen years hit.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

And I think if you have a tween or a teen and you have other younger kids, I think it's important to make space and time alone with that tween or teen so that you can continue to form that bond. Because I think often tweens and teens also see parents engaging with the younger siblings by playing Uno, going to the park, and stuff, and it looks Like you're as a parent from their point of view, sometimes it looks like, well, we're the younger ones are getting all the attention, and that can disrupt the connection, and they're not always then aware. Well, I did the same thing with you when you were eight, but that's not what's on the top of their mind. So it's important to have some alone time with that tween or teen to foster that connection and kind of broaden your horizons. I mean, I learn a lot from my tween because technology-wise, they're way ahead of me.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Also add though, that can be challenging because I joke that the same body walks into the kitchen, but you'd never know who's living inside of it, right? Like the teenager that the mood can change on a dime, and that's that's the true nature of the beast. So you can carve out time that was supposed to be special you and your tween or teen time, and then when it comes time to like do that activity or be with them, they can be beastly at that moment. When 10 minutes earlier they were very pleasant. So I would say it also needs to be just regular moments when you're with them and there's no pressure. You're not quizzing them on their personal resume, whether they have taken care of whatever their obligations are, monitoring their path towards some achievement, corralling their belongings, all the things that we do to remind when our teens are available because they're available so infrequently that we're like, okay, you're in the kitchen. I'm gonna do the 5,000 things I've been thinking about. I'm gonna unload those on you. That's all pressure. So I think another thing that can build relationships with teenagers is simply moments without pressure with their parents. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah, yeah, because sometimes we try to make these big moments. Like, for example, I invited my 15-year-old daughter. I was like, hey, I could take you and your friends to the lake this weekend. What do you want to do? Let's have some fun. And then she's like, Yeah, that sounds great. And then immediately, like, she got invites to lake with another friend in their family, and that's where she's going. So it's like, okay, you can only provide the opportunities, and they may take it, they may not, it may line up, it may not. But there are all these opportunities in between that I'm hearing you talk about, whether that's driving them in the car to the millions of things we taxi them around to or whatever. Those are beautiful little moments that we can have to continue to foster that connection. And one thing I talk to parents a lot about is the five to one ratio, which I'm sure you guys have heard of. But five positive interactions for every one negative one. And they count nagging and talking about chores and discipline as negatives, right? And so, what are the positive things that I can do throughout the day? Whether that's just like hand on their head, rubbing it or a hug or good morning, so happy to see you, just little tiny moments that we can like remind them that, hey, I like you. I like you and I want to be around you, and I'm happy that you're here. That can really give us so much credit in the bank with them. If that bank account is empty, they don't want to listen to my discipline. They don't want to listen to the teaching moment, they don't want to engage, they want to have nothing to do with me. And if I want to have influence, I have to be able to have those deposits in the bank and that credit ready.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

A deposit is also your kid comes into the kitchen and you're making dinner, and you are like, okay, I'm not gonna remind them, did you get your homework started? I'm not gonna nag right now. So you do that, but instead, you're like, okay, what could I do? That's a deposit. I'm gonna offer them a compliment, and you say something nice, and then you like wait for your teen to be transformed into this grateful, connected kid because you've said something nice, because you've made a deposit. Like, A, your kid rarely is gonna give you that. So if you say something nice, don't expect them to give you a receipt for your deposit. And really, they like you just have to hope it went in the account, and sometimes it won't. And B, sometimes a deposit doesn't look like doing anything. It's like you continue making dinner and you're like looking for something, and you say, Oh, what are you looking for? Oh, my baseball mitt. I think it's on the front steps, and that's all you say. That's it. You meet them with their agenda and you don't insert yours. That is a deposit.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

And I think those deposits are actually more meaningful, even though teens don't recognize it as a quote deposit, but they then feel seen and heard and validated. They're seeking that. Teenagers are always seeking because they're trying to figure out all these different things at this developmental stage of life. Okay, like mom knows where the baseball mitt is. Great. And mom didn't nag me if my homework was done before dinner, or remind me of why did you lose your baseball mitt practices in 20 minutes?

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Right. Yeah, because the words out of my mouth, Sam. Yeah, that simple question can go so many different ways, right? Why are you asking me where your mitt is again? You should know these things, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

There's so many ways that we could respond to that, and that impacts the relationship every single time, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

And so And that's where parental self-regulation comes in. Because you may be definitely thinking that in your head that, my God, your mitt is in the same spot it always is, but your kid keeps forgetting. And so your natural instinct may be to have that kind of response. But if you can take a quick second, check yourself and check your response, that's gonna have a much more positive impact on your connection and relationship with your teenager.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

And the ride to baseball, you might actually get something from your kid.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

You might get something not just fine, okay, yeah, nothing.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

And that's like the gold. If we can, if we can have enough of foundation to be able to have a conversation and like actually find out what's going on with them and whatnot. That's so good. Wow. Okay, this is such a great conversation. I love all these little tips and things like that. Just the reminders. I think all of us, no matter where we are on our parenting journey, always the reminder. Oh yeah, right? I need to have that little pause myself and remind myself. The big picture is so much more important than being right in the moment or being snarky as we feel.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

And I think, I think too, parents mess up too. I think another big parenting thing is if you mess up, if you say the wrong thing in the moment because you're heated, own it. We all mess up. We've all said the wrong thing. We've all responded in the moment the wrong way. We acted on our own emotions or dysregulation. Come back and apologize and own it and say, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. That came out wrong. Own your mistake to your kid and show them that you're human and you mess up too. And then change. You need to learn, you need to learn and react differently yourself. But it also helps to own it so that your teen also recognizes that you recognize that you messed up too. And maybe you both messed up, and that's okay. And you can repair and rebuild.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Absolutely. Yep. And that's a teaching moment right there. Just the fact that if I can own it, I teach them how to own it, right? That it's okay to make mistakes, but we take responsibility once we have. And if we're just telling them to do that, but we're not doing it ourselves, that's gonna fall on flat ears. So wow. I'm wondering if either of you can give some examples or some scenarios of when a teen might have a misstep or a mistake and what we shouldn't do versus what we should do in that moment.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Sure. Let's say your kid has done something. I'm trying to think of a specific, but what jumped to mind is when we focus on the behavior and not the reason behind the behavior. So let's say school calls home and your kid's been mouthing off in school, or let's say your kid gets into a fight with their friend and they're really rude, and the friend's parent calls you to report this, or you find out about some kind of screw up that your kid engaged in from someone else. That's a common one. Often our first instinct is to go right to the kid and say, I can't believe you handled it that way. Because we're like, oh my gosh, this reflects very poorly on me as a parent that I'm getting a call from the teacher or the school or my friend or a friend's parent or whomever, the coach. And so we go right to that is just, I can't believe that you did that. I can't believe you spoke like that to your friend. You've been friends with her since second grade. Or I can't believe you mount off to your teacher like that. Instead of first thing is get the kid's perspective. That doesn't mean you're withholding teaching. So if something comes to you and say, hey, I need to ask you something, uh, I received notification from Susie's mom or from school or whatever, but this took place. This is the story I was told. Can I understand it from your perspective? And then just listen. And then you might have to say, Well, okay, I get why you were hot, I get why you're upset, and not but, but and how you handled it probably didn't go the way you needed it to. I wonder if there's a different way to handle it. But if you want to stay in relationship with your child, you have to make space for them to tell you where they're coming from. You can't just come in telling them to change their behavior without listening first to why they behave that way. Even if it was a mistake on their part to behave that way.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Sam, this exact example happened to me last school year with my middle schooler. So I get a call home from school and an email. The school also sends email about like there's been a disciplinary action and they received those.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Our kids went to the same school.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yes of absolutely detention tomorrow afternoon. I'm like, what? And this is my middle schooler, is generally a respectful, kind kid. And I'm what? So I wasn't surprised by my, I'm just saying, the one you're re- your child that you're referring to is gonna be more my middle child, uh, not my oldest. Um so anyhow, my immediate reaction is what the heck did he do? What's going on here? So I pick him up from school, and now mind you, I have two other kids in the car. So it's also not the time and space to discuss with him what is going on when I've got his two younger siblings in the back seat.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Excellent point. I'm glad you said that. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

It is not the time to discuss in front of siblings. This is something that is exclusive to him. It's a private conversation. I don't need two younger siblings then also jumping in on this conversation. So, and all I want to do is find out what happened, right? This is all I'm driving home. I got a 15-minute drive home, and all I want to know is what happened at school. I don't say a word about it. I ask my usual, how was your day? I get the fine, what did you do? Nothing, and I left it at that. And then later on had a private conversation with him to get his perspective. So it turns out, and what I had heard from school was that he called a kid Bucktooth. He was like, okay, we need detention for this. What is going on? They're middle school boys, okay. And I come to find out from talking to him that this kid has been bullying, essentially, or making fun of my child. It's been an ongoing thing. It's been going on all week, and he insulted my child. Looks calling my kid short and making fun of him for girly liked or something. It was just nonsense drama, in my opinion. And at the end of the day, he had to serve the detention. We spoke to school. School was like, oh, he's fine. The other kid is serving detention too. They're serving detention together. Oh, okay. Um, and they're gonna have to pick up trash around school or something. I was fine, whatever. I didn't further discipline him because we had a conversation. We discussed, hey, you can't call kids names. Even if they're being unkind like this, you need to go tell somebody and not respond. And there was a consequence already from school. There was detention the following afternoon, and I left it at that, and it didn't happen again. Now that situation could have gone very differently had I spoken about it in front of his siblings, had I freaked out before I knew the whole story and just was freaking out that my kid ended up with a disciplinary action from the school.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Or if you didn't tolerate the disciplinary action from school, if you were like, this is unjust. It was just the word bucktooth, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

So I think that's a common example that comes up for parents. Some form of that issue happens to every parent in some way, shape, or form. Yeah.

unknown 34:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

And I think there's so many patterns. I think another pattern is when your kid's doing something dangerous and they won't stop self-injury, drug use, hanging out doing risky things with friends, and it feels like how do I discipline that? Those situations often call for backup, is what I'll say. That might mean getting some support for yourself, getting some support for the kid when they can't stay away from dangerous situations. I think that that's another common one because they're unteachable for a different reason. They're doing those behaviors to feel something or not feel something, and that needs to be addressed for the behavior to go away.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

I think that comes up a lot with marijuana use, particularly in Maryland, where Sam and I are. It's been legalized, which is fine, but it's not legalized for teenagers, it's legalized for adults, but it has filtered in to the point where I see more concerns about marijuana than I do about alcohol, usually, in teenagers. You have to understand why is the kid smoking marijuana? Why are they vaping? What is underpinning that? And sometimes it's a mental health concern, sometimes it's not. I'm not gonna characterize everybody in one bucket, but you gotta get curious and you have to understand the underpinnings of the behavior. Behaviors always usually have something underpinning them. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

I think that's so powerful because I feel like that's it. Not only is curiosity getting to the root of it, but it's also giving them respect to ask them what's going on instead of just laying down the law or telling them it's not okay or why did you do this? Instead, it's like, what's going on? What's happening for you right now? And then how can I support too? It just creates an entirely different conversation and an entirely different result. So I love that. It's so simple, but so helpful. Well, I'm curious, how would you help parents move from a control mindset to a teaching mindset? So those of us who have maybe been really holding the grip so tight and have been really trying to like keep a tight shit, keep our kids on the right path, but that we're holding on with the death grip and it's not working, it's not helping. Like, how would you help help parents shift that mindset?

SPEAKER_02 36:15

In therapy, when you're working on making a change, you do it incrementally. You don't just throw someone who can't swim into the deep end, right? And hope they learn to paddle. You slowly dip your toe in, wade into the water. And so if you have been someone who is control-oriented or who grew up with an authoritarian type household, and the mess of doing this in a more authoritative relationship-based way is foreign or scary to you. And by the way, it'll feel very uncomfortable to make this change. It's worth making, but you're not weird if it feels uncomfortable. I would say begin by narrating to your kid that this is a change you're trying to make. Be transparent about that. And then choose a few instances where you can try this out in lower stakes moments. In other words, get comfortable sitting with psychological and maybe literal mess because raising kids is messy. And if you can't tolerate psychological or literal mess, it's going to be difficult for you to engage in these conversations because I don't know of too many of these that get tied up in a neat little bow with all of the strands involved. Like there are usually bows involved, but there's loose strings that go on to a different issue that gets addressed later. And that is human and hard to tolerate. So my answer is it's a long-winded way of saying start small.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

And I think the other thing too is that if they've had tight control and they're recognizing that it's not working, that's also the start of being able to make a change. You have to recognize that what you're doing is ineffective or not working. People don't just walk into therapy because they're like, oh, everything's perfect. They don't go see Sam as a parent coach because they're like, I'm a perfect parent. They recognize that they need guidance and something they're doing isn't working, or there needs to be a different way to approach things.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

And if you don't have the language, find someone to help you or read a book. There's so many resources out there, there's so many terrific places to go. You're one of them, Jasmine.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Well, and you both of you as well, and your amazing resources and your podcast too, which we'll link below for sure. Okay, beautiful. Well, if a parent could only take one shift in mindset away from this conversation, what would you want it to be? What would you want to leave them with today?

SPEAKER_02 38:27

I'd be curious. And I was gonna say, you are your child's first and most important teacher.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Yeah. Ah, so good. Well, tell the listeners where they can find you, where they can connect with you, where they can get support by both of you.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Okay. Um, so I run a parent coaching business called Teen Savvy Coaching. I work with parents of teens, tweens, and some young adults to help you increase calm, increase your confidence, increase harmony in the household, and really help your kid to thrive. But I don't work with the kids. I only work with parents. So that's teensavvycoaching.com, and I've got a whole lot of free resources available, including a monthly webinar called How to Stop Fighting with Your Teen Without Giving Up Your Authority, in which I cover some of this, maybe in a little less detail. I'm also a licensed therapist, but that's just in Maryland, and my caseload is generally full there. So parent coaching is easier to access. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Sam and I's podcast, Parenting Shrinkwrapped, is available on all the major podcast platforms as well as on YouTube. And we're also on Facebook and Instagram. So you can find us at any of those or email us at parentingshrinkwrapped at gmail.com. My private practice is Annapolis Psychiatry, but it's only for folks based in the state of Maryland. But that website is anapolispsychiatry.com.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

So yeah, free resources through the podcast and then parent coaching through Sam. And if you live in Maryland, you can also get some more support from them as well. But wow, thank you so much, both of you, for coming and just sharing your wealth of wisdom and years of expertise, not only in the field, but as parents yourselves, because it really comes through in such a beautiful way. And I know I learned so much, and I'm sure our listeners did too. So thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Thank you for having us, Jasmine. Thank you. It's been an honor.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Did you enjoy the show? If so, would you take 30 seconds to subscribe so you don't miss an episode? Leave a quick review so more parents can find these conversations and maybe even share this episode to your stories. And if you want to connect, please send me a DM on Instagram. I'm at jasmine.guidedpassages, and that's jasmine with a why. Thanks so much for being here, and I'll talk to you next week.