Ep 1: What is an Umma?

Our first episode begins with a very fundamental question: What is an umma? What is a mother? When you hear the words "Mother" or "Mom," what image, what descriptions come to mind? 

Here we talk about how we formed our first image of an "ideal" mother, the conscious and subconscious expectations we developed for ourselves, and how we bring God into it. 

Reach out to Sophia and Joyce:

Instagram: @theoldummaclub

Email: theoldummaclub@gmail.com

Music credits:
"Life of Riley" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Transcript

Joyce: 0:02

Hey Amaz, welcome to the Old Alma Club. I'm Joyce. And I'm Sophia. We are two friends in Los Angeles who had so many great coffee chats about our love for Jesus being Korean in biracial marriages and having kids mid-career, mid thirties. So we decided to turn it into a podcast. So grab a cup of coffee and

Sophia: 0:19

join our conversations and by aching backs, motherhood, marriage, Jesus, and everything in between.

Joyce: 0:26

You ready? Hannah? Two. Set. Set. Let's go. Let's go.

0:36

Hey, Amma, this is Sophia. Before we play this episode, I just wanna warn you that the first two episodes of this season, the sound quality is a little bit clunky because we had some technical issues, but that's all been resolved. So from season one, episode three onwards, the quality's much better. All right. That's all. And on back to the show.

Joyce: 1:02

Hey umma. So welcome to the first episode of Old umma Club. This is Joyce. And we thought we'd start the first episode with the very fundamental beginning basic questions of what is an umma, which now that I'm thinking about it is, feels way more high level than just as like a basic question of what is an umma? What are we, how are we as a mother? I don't know. Now that I'm deep, I was like, this is a deep question.

Sophia: 1:31

It is a deep question. Let get to the fundamental root of what our image of being a mother is. And, what our expectations and our ideals of motherhood. Where we place our priorities and the values of motherhood. And I think everybody has different. Ideas of what they think a mother should be like. And then in the midst of motherhood, that arises a lot of challenges when our expectations and our ideals don't match up to reality.

Joyce: 2:01

And the reality of just our own generational experiences, the family history and what's in our bones, and that conflict of what our own expectations are. And then the reality of being a parent in whatever situation that we have. Correct. Yeah. Because in my mind, I originally envisioned a motherhood as like a thriving stay at home mom.

Sophia: 2:24

Oh, really? Since you were a kid?

Joyce: 2:26

Since I was a kid. Okay. And then I stopped thinking about it once I graduated college.

Sophia: 2:31

But that's a lot to even unpack there because what does a thriving mother mean and why would that be an ideal? I don't know. So let's dive in.

Joyce: 2:42

Let's dive in. Okay. So we're wanting to break it down of seeing like what is our concept or do we have an unconscious idea of what. Image of what an umma is. The first talking point that we wanted to go into is what is this idea and concept in our mind?

Sophia: 3:01

I think the idea of what a mother is. Is one of the

Joyce: 3:06

most, um,

Sophia: 3:08

earliest image that we form. Even as a child. And as a baby. Assuming that you do have a mother as you grow up, that our image of a mother is being formed even before we have a conscious idea of what that means. Yeah. And that shapes a lot of our perceptions. And our expectations as we ourselves become mothers. Or even before we become a mother. I would love to hear from you, Joyce, like what you thought an omma might look like.

Joyce: 3:41

Yeah. So I think if I'm thinking back to like I mentioned it earlier as a kid, I imagined this thriving stay at home parent. My stay at home mom and I think my mind moms are superheroes and our woman who can do it all. The woman in my family have always been very strong, independent, make their path kind of woman. And they were all great mothers, right? My mom, she has her ups and downs with it, but like considering what she was given in her life, she was an excellent mom and she was a superhero in my mind. So I think that was in my head, but in my mind I also thought I wanted a parent who stayed home more because my mom worked all the time. So I think that's where I was. And my mom even said I was always the weird kid from her friend groups. Like I was the one who always just talked about becoming a mom. And none of her friends' daughters ever talked about, they talked about their careers. They talked, my mom's. Like you were just fixated on like having a child, like having a family. Ever since you were little. I did talk about my own career, but that's where it was like I just always had this nurturing idea. So I think in my mind is like woman and Umma is a person who could do it all. Who could have that meal on the table who could still work, like societal culture coming out. Me now I'm like pressures and who was still home, but this was me as a child. I'm like, yeah. And and then I stopped thinking about it for a long time until I became a mom. And then I am just like, I think now it's just the idea of a mother is I. More of almost like more crunchy granola. So it's more of this like soothing figure, like soothing comforter figure in my child's like life, I think.

Sophia: 5:27

Huh. That is interesting. So going back you idea of mother as a superhero was formed by the strength in your mother. But also the things that you didn't get from her. So in a way of saying her strengths and deficiency informed what you think an ideal mother should look like.

Joyce: 5:47

Yeah. Like my mom was like, I think about it now. I'm like, how the heck does she do it? Like she had,'cause my mom worked at a Korean beauty salon, so she had to be there from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM and, but I was still in elementary school. So she'd wake up at the crack of dawn and she'd have breakfast on the table for me ready to go. She had snacks made so that when I came home,'cause I was a latchkey kid, so I'd come home and I was by myself. She has snacks and a lunch and a dinner all step, even though my brother sometimes ate it all and I had enough food. But that's a whole other story, punk. But yeah. And so then that was like, that was my norm. Like every day. My mom made three meals before she left for work. And so then but now that I'm an adult and I'm a mom, I'm like, how did she do that? And she baked a cake. Wow. She was a planner and a maker, a mover, A shaker. I don't know what, I don't know how she did it, but it was like I tongues wouldn't even stuff. And I was like, how do you what? So I think she like had, I don't know. She was great at time management, that's for sure. Oh, I don't know. I don't have that. I don't have good time management.

Sophia: 6:59

It sounds like your standards for an ideal mother has changed.

Joyce: 7:05

Oh my God. Then reality snacks in your face, but yeah, reality smacks in your face. But yeah, so that was basically, I think now I've really been just like wrestling of what is an umma? What does an umma look like? What does an umma look like for my kids? And I think right now looking at my kids I think for me, the image of the mother is more of just providing the comforting aspect and like providing almost like a foundation for the kids. And then as they get older is just gonna morph because boys become boys and I'm a mother and our dynamics are gonna change a lot. So I think my idea of what an umma is as. Has really been evolving and I'm not really sure how to accept that. I've actually been really wrestling with that myself where I'm like, oh, like this relationship is changing and I don't really know where it's gonna go. And so I was actually listening to what Fresh Hell on here on the way back here. And their whole thing was like podcast. Their whole thing was like talking about like you're gonna, as a parent, you're the one who builds the hearth is what they called it. So it's like you build the foundation that, that you're just always there and you're foundational and they come and go. But you're always steady. And I think that's what's, like what I've been really trying to wrestle into is like, how do I be a steady person for my kids?'cause I'm not, but yeah, I'm like so volatile and I think that's where I get like my extra guilt. Is like, when I get these volatility in my emotions and my mental health and my stability, then I'm like, and I'm like, high anxious kind of person. So then I spiral and I'm like, my children are all gonna be ruined because of me.

Sophia: 8:49

You know what's interesting though, because now it sounds like your image of an ideal mother is informed by your own deficiencies. Instead of your mother's deficiencies. Okay.

Joyce: 9:00

Yeah, I think'cause my own deficiencies are coming from the deficiencies I experienced as a kid, right? I didn't have a mother in the home like I did when I was little, but I don't remember any of that. And so after that, from where my actual memory starts, I don't have an image of my mom at home at all.

Sophia: 9:19

Okay. We should add to that your father was not around.

Joyce: 9:22

Yeah, but my father actually, ironically enough, when I was young before the divorce settled, was home more often than my mom ever was. I see. Okay. my dad was always one who Left work and came home at a predictable time. Was there for school pickups, all that stuff. I see. Yeah. So it's very interesting, like experience, I think. But yeah, and so I think then now that I've become a mother, I've realized, I'm like, I never saw my mom do any of this stuff. I never like physically saw her at home with me. So it's, I'm like, it's a very, so I'm like having to create this construct of a mother at home. Because I don't have an actual example that I grew up with, and so I think that's also hardest I can like, so I have to like self-evaluate myself and then create that image based on my own self-evaluation. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? You are learning as you are experiencing doing.

Sophia: 10:17

motherhood.

Joyce: 10:18

Oh girl.

Sophia: 10:21

I had the opposite experience because my mother was a very traditional stay at home mother. And I grew up as a missionaries kid, and my father was gone three quarters of the year to different countries. I spent a lot of time at home with my mother and my younger brother. She was the one who was always present. And doing the dishes, doing all the traditional domestic work, whereas my father was off jet setting. Around the world. Preaching, doing God's work doing mission work and all that. And I think on a very flip side from you. I saw my dad as the superhero and the ideal person to be. Yeah. Doing, doing actual great works. Yeah. Outside, whereas my mother's inside doing tasks and chores and all the invisible things that users take for granted, and there's no thanks. There's no gratitude there, right? There's really no sense of accomplishment or purpose. There this nothing grand about phoning boundary. And washing the dishes and making keim. So I think from a young age I actually saw that and I, I did not want that. So it's so interesting because we, I got the mother you wanted. Whereas I, and, but then I focus on what. I guess I think maybe it's just human nature where the grasses green on the other side. And you are always dissatisfied with what you have. And I never realized what a blessing it was to have a stay at home mom. But as I got a little older. And I started. started, you know, looking at other moms who are working and seem to have a career and I wished my mother had that. too.

Joyce: 12:12

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sophia: 12:13

That she could show me what that superhero mom is. Yeah. Of

Joyce: 12:20

like

Sophia: 12:21

having it all. Whereas she was this very traditional and. Even the marriage was very traditional, where my dad was that head of the household, yeah, he's a very strong, dominating personality, whereas my mother is just very naturally not forced, not oppress in any way, but just very naturally submissive. And she saw her role as a supportive role.

Joyce: 12:43

Mm-hmm.

Sophia: 12:44

And she like likes that. Yeah. She Always wanted a husband who can protect her and lead her and guide her. That was what she wanted. And so they had a very happy marriage.

Joyce: 12:55

Mm-hmm.

Sophia: 12:55

But me, even as a child, I knew that I was very, not like my mother. I had very strong ambitions and had very strong and stubborn and opinionated personality, plus a humongous ego where I thought I was great stuff. I thought I was meant for great things. I love it. And that did not include. Washing the dishes. And folding laundry that was just my idea of hell. So for me, if you ask me what was a mother, yes. I would say, oh, a mother is like my mother who stays at home and watches the kids and plays a supporting role. To her husband and that, that to me sounded miserable. And it was I was not informed by feminist ideas. I didn't know anything about feminist. Yeah. I mean, I was not reading feminist literature at five or nine, which was really when I started realizing this is not what I want. I think I had a very limited restrained view of what motherhood is. Okay, a mother needs to be constrained within this very typical, stereotypical, traditional gender roles. And that was the model I had. And I, because I did not want that, I realized very young, I don't ever want to be a mother. Yeah. So it's, interesting because we come from very different backgrounds and we still seem to have quite similar ideals of what motherhood is, and whereas I rejected that. Yeah, you. You seem to have embraced it and longed for it.

Joyce: 14:33

I embraced it and longed for it, and then I had it and I said, I don't know if I want this. And I was like, no. To get back, I backed. I always seems so much sier I think.'cause in my mind my husband is also a millionaire, so that, was he ready? No, but I don't remember financial hardship ever Yeah. And I feel like that's also like an immigrant. So for me, they, I think were so protective of me being a baby, a young child, that they kept me in this bubble. So like I knew we weren't as rich as all the other kids. Like we lived in a very gang heavy neighborhood, just like shootouts, helicopters, like the ghetto birds going all night. We've had dead people on our streets, like when we've come home from church a couple of times oh boy, that kind of stuff. But I felt safe'cause my family did such a great job at creating the safety net, which maybe that's also where some of my unconscious of I want my children to feel safe. That was always never a question for me. Like I always felt safe. Even though my brother was scared of the crap and he's do not ever answer the phone call. And then he is you're gonna get called to CPS. And I was like. I dunno what that is. Oh my goodness. I'll answer the phone. Like we had a whole protocol. If I answered the phone, I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna get the phone and then I'd answer the phone. So it always seemed like I was talking with someone.

Sophia: 15:57

Were you alone at home from the age of five?

Joyce: 15:59

Seven.

Sophia: 16:00

Seven. Okay.

Joyce: 16:01

That's what I can remember from a memory. So seven was when the divorce finalized? Before that they were separated and I think they separated when I was around three or four.

Sophia: 16:11

So your mother, from the time you were seven, or maybe even earlier than that, she had to play the role of two parents kind?

Joyce: 16:21

No. No. She just worked. Okay. She just cranked out the money and my brothers. Your brothers were the ones who had to figure out how to take care of you. Raise a 7-year-old little girl. I see. Okay. And they were 18 and 20 and my 20-year-old brother, I love him. It was just, I think he took the divorce obviously really hard. And so he dug in deeper to his friend commune,'cause he's older. So my middle brother, Tupa, he was the one who really like. Swooped up and actually stepped in as like a fatherly role. So we had a very weird enmeshed un weird friend like relationship.'cause he was the one at 18 years old, was the one who was like punishing me, was the one who was like. Created every rule of my life, basically. Like he's the one who raised me, and so it was like him and his friends raising me. Wow. It was a bunch of 18-year-old boys. You know what, it sounds like a family did what they could. Oh, they did give you everything necessity that you need. Yeah. For stability and yeah. At least a sense of security. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think for what we had and what we were given in our situation, my. Brothers and my mom did a phenomenal job. I never felt a need, I always felt provided for, I was probably babied a little too much.'cause they, I think, felt so guilty about what I had to go through. So they over accommodated in certain ways. Like I never knew how to do a vacuum until I was in junior high. And I only did the vacuum because my brother got embarrassed.'cause someone at church was like, Joyce, can you vacuum the floor? And I was like. What's that? I had to wash the dishes, do the laundry, cook my own food. I did all that when I was like nine, but I don't know what a vacuum is. I was like,

Sophia: 18:17

now all you do is vacuum. I vacuum maybe six times a day,

Joyce: 18:22

dude, it's my best friend. Like it's in my hand at all times. I'd vacuum my children if I could, if they weren't so terrified of it, but I just. But why, right? As you're vacuuming, you look behind and there's just a new trail. Like, why do I vacuum? Yeah.

Sophia: 18:35

I remember I was visiting my neighbor who's also a mother of two kids, and she was introducing to me this new vacuum m and we both got so excited about this. And had never in my life been so excited about a vacuum mop. And I was thinking about, oh my gosh, I was planning ahead Black Friday. I'm gonna get that vacuum mop. And I think this is the reality setting in of what motherhood is though.

Joyce: 18:58

Yes. Like literally, I'm like, how do I clean this couch more efficient? Do we need to buy a portable cleanser? And I was like, Ooh, look at this cool hat. Portable cleaner. And Tyler's what? You don't even know the things we get excited about. No. You want your wife happy? Get me this cleaner.

Sophia: 19:15

So okay, let's summarize. For you, it sounds like your ideal mother would be safe. Present. Nurturing. More traditional, I suppose, but also traditional, but also going out and having.

Joyce: 19:31

She's herself, like she's an independent person. Okay. And I think that's like where I respected my mom for that, she always had her own things. She always worked.

Sophia: 19:41

So do you, is that what you mean by thriving? I think by thriving you mean like she's still free, independent and being herself, what does that mean to you?

Joyce: 19:49

I think thriving means like being able, thriving means being able to. I wouldn't say like killing it, but it's just more of like fully accepted and content in the situation that you are in right then and there. I see. She could be a working mom and having to be at the stay at home component. She could be just a stay at home mom. She could be both but she's also content and she's also still her own self. Not fully, like my life has to be all around. The children is like, her identity is still independent and I think that is also very safe for children. And so that in itself because we have different identities. And I think that's important. So I think it's more of yeah, like safety, steady, like consistent. And then nurturing and I think that's it like really is what I mean. And being able to do those three, I think is thriving. Being an independent, like self-identified per mother who is emotionally stable and is consistent in whatever form it might be. You might be working full time and then coming home. Or you might be stay at home or you might be doing both. It doesn't matter as like whether at the level of presence, but I think the consistency aspect is important. Not so much of always having to be a stay at home. I think I'm really appreciating the privilege I have of being able to stay at home when they're so young. And understanding like that this is just a phase because once they start going to school, like there is. Like a nine to two freedom that I never have had before. And I'm gonna have to explore that when I'm like, what you, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna dive into work? Who am I? And then I have to go through this whole other evolution of becoming a new person again. Well, we get that. Yeah. So that's like down. Yeah. It's gonna come faster than we realize, which is wild to think about. But yeah. So I think that's what I mean by like mother. Yeah. And I think consistent figure, stable, emotionally, like stable and like independent in that. And I think, yeah, like I think originally when I was younger I thought being at home with the kids is what it is. But now that I am at home with the kids, like I love it. And also I recognize like you can also be a strong thriving mother. That is not always home, what the kids do, it just depends on the needs of the family and also the needs of the mother's mental health.

Sophia: 22:21

Correct. Well then on that note, do you think you are thriving? You are thriving Alma?

Joyce: 22:27

No. Oh no. No, because I think I'm not the emotionally stable person that I would love to be. I'm still very volatile and I think that's what's, like I, and I know it like, I like drop of a dime, I like flip and then I have to bring it back. But the thing I will say is like. My children will know what an apologizing parent is because I'm apologizing several times a day for losing my cool. And that's not okay. And so I think that's something my kids will at least always know as a parent that will apologize and own up. And Cian will call me out on it. He's you are not supposed to do that. And I was like, dang it. But he knows, oh, I know. He knows too much. It is a good sign. He's like, you Weren't supposed to do that. I'm like, I need five minutes through the mouth of vapes to keep you accountable in the eyes of God. And I love it. I'm glad that he feels safe enough that like he knows that he can call me out. And I'm not gonna be mad at him for calling me out on something. Yes. So I think that's where I am with like my motherhood image. And then for you, I don't think we ever got a full image of like where you feel like you are right now

Sophia: 23:45

well, I obviously in, I somehow miraculously birth two children out of my own, and it was miraculous. Yes. That's the thing is like they were given gifts to you where you're like. Oh, we'll get to that story one day. Yes. I would say at least the first one was completely unexpected. And yeah, it wasn't so much that I was against being a mother, as in, I thought I always had to choose my career. Or motherhood. And I said, I don't think I'm cut up to be a mother because I'm not like my mother. I'm not gentle and kind and submissive and supportive and nurturing. I am a selfish uh, you're I'm just I mean, I think I just acknowledged. I think I really focus on the bad parts of me. But then instead of being like, I can change that, right? Being like, Nope, I accept who I am. That's who I am. And so I'm not going to be a mother. I'm going to terrorize and traumatize my poor kids. So I choose my career. And then I found out I was pregnant with my first son, and it was just a complete. reorienting myself of what I think a mother is, and also who I think I am. in a way I was a little lucky or fortunate that I didn't set all these high expectations of myself. Yes. You didn't really have this crazy ideal of what you wanted to be, right? Yes. I had an image of what a mother is, but also that wasn't to me an ideal. I had an image of a mother based on my umma. But also that was not ideal for me, so I didn't even have time to form expectations of myself as an umma. When I became an umma. That saved me from a lot of what we call mom guilt. Or just a lot of anxiety and stress. I just had one goal as a mother and when I was, keep my child alive. And he's still alive. He's thriving, he's doing great. I do think that motherhood transformed me. Because now here I am with two kids and I'm arguing with my husband about wanting a third. So obviously I've been completely transformed. Either I became insane or somehow God just like really touched my heart and I was shocked by how much I actually. Enjoy motherhood. Not all parts of it. Yeah. But I found motherhood to be just the greatest. Gift I never expected and thought I did not want. for me, motherhood has become just a grace of God, period. And not that I have to be this crafty mom or this like mom who never loses a temper or this like crunchy granola mother or whatever, like expectations people have. I just. Was forced to receive it as a grace of God. That the very fact that I have a child is a grace of God. And that he chose me to be Tov's mother. To be Udi's mother is a grace of God. And I am, I'm very grateful, even though this was completely not. Planned by me. Not engineered by me and not because I am so wise and so smart or so good. But it was just grace by God. Yeah. That I was able to receive it. And see it as the grace of God. So yeah, motherhood now to me, like being an. I think it's still quite a blank slate for me. And. I remember one time I think I was venting to you something and then you just, you said something that I still think about. And it was that God picked you to be his mother, so you are right now the perfect mother for to. And I really received that. Oh, that was because I'm like, oh, I said that. Yeah. You don't remember it, but that was a spirit of God. Yeah. And I think that's how I decided to look at what being an umma is. we have this abstract idea of what an umma is. But then also I think it's important to realize that I'm not just an umma, I am s umma. I'm ki umma, and that looks different for every family, depending on the dynamics, The kid, your marriage, everything. Yeah. So Totally. Yeah. What is an umma? What is a thriving umma? I think we can both agree that we're still learning Oh, constantly and For me though, thriving does not have to mean that we've already reached Right. That that perfection. Yes. I think thriving for us. To be a thriving umma is to be an umma who is constantly open to receive that gift from God, to receive the grace from God, but also open to correction. Yes, open to edification, open to process our grief and our past trauma and also open to being shaped by God to be the best. Ki and Sam

Joyce: 29:05

mm-hmm.

Sophia: 29:06

to be the best to Sam.

Joyce: 29:08

Yeah. Yeah. I think as you're like talking about the grace of God, I just, I don't know if this is how you felt too, but I felt like once I became a mother, the understanding of God's love became like so real to me. 100 and like when I like look at my child and I'm like, holy crap, I and like the fact that I'm like. My love for my child and what I experience is such a sliver that it's like despite, I feel like despite my inability to be consistent with reading the word or like praying, which I know is important, and I still try, but like the greatest times, the deepest times I felt so connected to God and his grace and his goodness has been when I'm holding my screaming child who's flailing and slapping me in the face and I'm just like. Yo, this is what you mean, Lord. I'm like, I get it. Oh my gosh. You know what I mean? Or even when they're just like, you're dotting on your child. And I was like, oh, like I get it. Like the Psalms, like the word of God. Me. It's so real to me now.'cause I'm like reading it. I'm like, and the Israelites and the love and the persistence that got it. I was like, 100%. I'm like getting teary eyed and I'm like, oh. And I'm like, oh, I get it. Yeah. Like I get it and I feel like, motherhood and parenthood is not meant for every single one of us, but for those of us who haven't given this like responsibility and gift, like I'm like, wow, what a gift. Because like we get to understand that and like also we are edified because I feel like. The responsibility of a child. There is no level of like unselfishness use you experience. Oh my goodness, yes. Like your own personal suffering is one thing for sure. And exhaustion, but like inflicted exhaustion, self sacrifice. Yeah. From your child. I'm like. Just constantly rung out. Oh girl. Like an old towel in the kitchen, just sopping, wet, sad, dripping smelling like mold. Oh, wondering when the last time you got wash? Be afraid. Oh, in the edges. Constantly thrown on the floor.

Sophia: 31:23

Oh. With like bits of poop. But I don't know how it got there, but it somehow is.

Joyce: 31:31

Hold on. We didn't talk about that. What's going on in your kitchen now?

Sophia: 31:33

Oh my gosh. I, dude, you know we are in the throes of potty training right now. Oh yeah. I do not know how Cook somehow gets everywhere. He told one time after he put, I don't know how, but he's been walking around. And then I realized that he has poop stains on his bare feet and he's been tracking it all around the house. So I'm sorry, but my house is very unsanitary right now. But yeah, that is the life. I'm pretty sure you still love that child. I, God, that's God, there. Seriously. I do think, there are so many ways to experience the love of God. And motherhood is one of the ways that is so visceral. Yes. It really hits deep. Yes. I always understood what it felt like to be loved by my parents. Yes. But then when you feel that parental love it's oh my gosh, God, do you really look at me this way? Does your heart really feel this way as you look at me? Yeah. It does bring tears to my eyes too, because it is this. Oh, wondrous. It is awesome. Yeah. Of like, Wow. And I think that is such a gift. That God allows us to just experience 1% or maybe even less of how he feels for us. Human beings with all of our wickedness and our selfishness. And our temper and our stubbornness. And a disgustingness and a poop, all of it. And he, he still finds joy in us, right? Yeah. Like even though our kids drive us crazy sometimes there are so many moments though, where the joy that we just. Feel just by looking at them? Yes. Just by touching their hands. Yes. Just by bringing them close to our chest. Yes. The indescribable joy. That God feels joy when he looks upon us. And that we can experience the joy that God feels mm-hmm. in a human level on, on this. Mm-hmm. Earth That's being anoma. Mm-hmm. To me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joyce: 33:46

Yeah. And even on the contrast of joy, like grief and sadness, like watching your child, even if it's like a very superficial level of sadness, like your heart as a parent, just oh, and like a healthy level where we're not like co like codependent and we're like, your pain is my pain. But we're like, I get, I understand and like that sadness, and I feel like grief and mourning has also not been s has been like. So real and understanding God coming alongside that. And I think understanding like when, like God says I know every tear you shed, it's I do, I know that with every tear, like my kiddo shed. And so it's, I'm like, oh, wow. Like it isn't, you're not just with us. And my heart and my love for my child isn't just there in just when they're cute. Yeah. Like it's the entire spectrum. Yeah. And it's like, wow. Like. Wow, God. Like I see it now and I can feel you in it. I feel like that has been like an interesting journey as like a mother where no one's like really ever explained that to me or given me that heads up. People have just been like, it's hard. Yeah. I'm like, okay. And I'm like, when I became it, and that was like,'cause I remember I was like, when I was really in the throes of like postpartum depression with Cian. I remember I was staring at Cian and he was doing tummy time. He was even little, and I was like listening to Maverick City Music and I was just like having a really hard time. And I remember and I was staring at Cian and I was just like, I'm gonna start crying, but I'm like, I just had such a deep love for him and I just heard God's voice. And he was just like, how much more do I love you? And I just remember I was like oh yeah, I'm okay. It sucks right now. That's okay to say it, but I was like, oh man. Okay, we'll get through this. And so I think it's just, I think it's been also a gift of being a mother and as well as being a Christian, because there are just times of being a mom where you're just like, I'm not gonna make it, and God's graciousness. And just like how we come into our children and try to carry them through in difficult times, god is so prevalent so evident in that way. So it's just been like an interesting evolution of like an experience of motherhood, of and realizing like what Aah is is just like, you are like almost channeling and funneling to your child God's grace and love, yeah. And persistence.

Sophia: 36:12

It's just the paradox of being on my is that. While you are being an online learning to be an online, you're also learning to be a daughter. A daughter of God. And you are, as you said, channeling that love you experience as a daughter of God. To your own children. Yes. I mean, at the end of it, I think we can both say we are very thankful to be mothers. Yeah, we, there is so many definition of an image of what a mother is. And I think right now we just need to bring it down. Simplify it. Yeah. Bring it down to the essence. Yeah. being an AMA is just receiving the gift and grace of God and also learning to be out. The daughter of God.

Joyce: 36:55

Yeah, I think so. And being open handed in that understanding that I think motherhood and then the image of a OMA is I think being able to embrace change. And I think that's really what it comes down to. And I think a lot of times that's what it is. I think a mother who can change as the like demands of a mother changes. I think that's important. And I think that's where you and I are standing'cause we're realizing it's constantly changing. Oh yeah. And I think a lot of people can say that it's a way to keep you humble in like understanding and channeling we're God's image bears, which we've always been told right in the Bible. But I think it becomes so evident when you become a mother is you're like, oh, I am. As parents, you're like, we are your first image of God. Oh, that is scary. That is right. But we're like, we are your image of love. And it kind of marks that and I'm like, wow, that's cool. That's hard. Great.

Sophia: 37:56

More sanctification ahead, but painful.

Joyce: 37:59

The grace and holy spirit of God in Jesus to help us through that.

Sophia: 38:03

I really think God made me. A mother because he knows I need to change in so many ways that there are so many parts of me that needs to be scraped off. And the only way that could happen was through my kids.

Joyce: 38:19

For a lot of us. Yeah. I agree.

Sophia: 38:21

All right. Why don't we pray us out? Joyce, do you wanna pray for our fellow ummas?

Joyce: 38:25

Sure. God, we thank you so much for the gift of being able. To be a mother that we recognize how it's a physical and emotional spiritual privilege, and it is gift that is not given to everybody. And so we take that weight with precious hands and we give you thanks, Lord. I just pray for every pair of ears that is listening. Every mother that is listening in is here with us. I pray that your heart is lifted. I pray that you feel the presence of God a little deeper today, and I just pray that the words. And the time that you have spent with us, with Joyce and Sophia that was just a little moment where we can just feel a little closer to God too. Just as we talked about God, I pray that you are able to feel a little closer to the heart of God as well. And we just pray that as you go forward in your day, that you realize and that you're able to feel the presence of God just in a way that is different and a little more fresh. And so we say all these things in your name. We're like, amen.

Sophia: 39:25

Amen. All right. Thank you so much for listening.

Joyce: 39:29

Bye bye.

Speaker 4: 39:32

Thank you so much for listening. If you've been liking our episodes, please follow, like, subscribe, or leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. We'd love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and feedback. You can find us on Instagram at the old Oma Club, or reach out to us at the old Oma club@gmail.com. You gotta give it. Big thank you to Kevin Lar for our music. Until next time, amaz, may the Lord bless you and keep you sane, hydrated, and fulfilled the way only he can.