The Old Umma Club
Bare-it-all conversations between two "old" Korean-American women who became mothers in their 30s and left their full-time careers to become stay-at-home moms in their “geriatric years." Join their talks about faith, motherhood, marriage, community, and everything in between.
The Old Umma Club
Ep 5: Raised Christian, Raising Christians
Joyce and Sophia recall their faith background being raised in the Christian church. One was raised in a Korean-American community center-like church, the other as a missionary/pastor's kid in Chinese-speaking churches. They discuss what they appreciated about their faith background, and what they would do differently in raising little believers.
Reach out to Sophia and Joyce:
Instagram: @theoldummaclub
Email: theoldummaclub@gmail.com
Music credits:
"Life of Riley" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Hey Amaz, welcome to the Old Alma Club. I'm Joyce. And I'm Sophia. We are two friends in Los Angeles who had so many great coffee chats about our love for Jesus being Korean in biracial marriages and having kids mid-career, mid thirties. So we decided to turn it into a podcast. So grab a cup of coffee and
Speaker 2:join our conversations and by aching backs, motherhood, marriage, Jesus, and everything in between.
Speaker 3:You ready? Hannah? Two. Set. Set. Let's go. Let's go.
Sophia:Hey, Amma. Hello, this is Sophia and this is Joyce. Okay. And, um, we had to take a pause because Joyce had to burp.
Joyce:It still hasn't happened. I don't know when it's gonna happen. You
Sophia:wanna to wait?
Joyce:I definitely don't wanna try to force it because with pregnancy, you don't know what's gonna come up with that burp. So I'm, I'm gonna just let it go naturally. Okay. Maybe the spirit will like,
Sophia:bring it outta me. Great. Um, burping is a sign of contentment. All right. So today. This is season one, episode five, and we are talking about faith. Yes. reflecting back on how we were raised in the faith mm-hmm. As children and thinking about what was good and what was helpful and what wasn't so helpful. And this is a great practice because, we unconsciously, adopt a lot of what our parents be, be depending on how our parents raised us in the faith. Mm-hmm. We adopt a lot of, um, ideas and perceptions on faith and God mm-hmm. And the Bible. Mm-hmm. and it's good to look back and see what is actually true. Mm-hmm. And what isn't, what is more cultural and what is maybe. Um, just the way our parents shaped Yeah. Us and the environment of the family. And because we now are tasked with the same duty that our parents had Yeah. Which is to raise our own children in the faith and pass on our faith to our children. That is a humongous Yeah. Responsibility and we don't take it lightly. Mm-hmm. We take it with a lot of trepidation and fear.
Mm-hmm.
Sophia:Uh, holy fear, I would say. Mm-hmm. because we want to raise our kids well. Mm-hmm. and by the grace of God, we are both still committed to our Christian faith.
Mm-hmm.
Sophia:but there are things that we wanna kind of switch it up mm-hmm. When, when it comes to how we raise our own children. Um, so we are gonna take a deep dive into, our spiritual background.
Mm-hmm.
Sophia:And. what spiritual practices we want to preserve and pass on to our children in our family.
Joyce:Yes. Yes. it'll be interesting conversation because Sophia and I have such very different raising. Mm-hmm. Um, even just, we have very different family, our family backgrounds and just how we were raised in our faith and even just the experience of our faith into our adulthood, like how that carried through. So I felt like it's, it's gonna be interesting to kind of dive into that for the both of us. Yeah. And to also self-reflect because I think it's, sometimes it's a, at least for myself, self-reflection is a lost art. Especially as a mother, you're kind of always thinking like, what's one step next to the next? So it's kind of nice for us to have this space to kinda sit down and mm-hmm. Reflect.
Mm-hmm.
Joyce:Yeah. Um, so starting off with our childhood faith. Have you had any time to reflect or like what are your thoughts? Yes.
Sophia:So I grew up in a missionary and a pastor's family. Mm-hmm. my father was both a missionary and a pastor, and when I was four, my father felt called to a missionary to the Chinese people. Mm-hmm. And so we immigrated from South Korea to Singapore and we spent 10 years in Singapore during which my father was, preaching. he was in bible school for a bit. And then, um, he was kind of traveling most of the year around Southeast Asia, preaching to the Chinese people. And then when I turned 14, we immigrated to the United States. We, came to Virginia, Northern Virginia, DC metro area where my father planted a Chinese immigrant church. And so now then he was a senior pastor then, but also I. Uh, missionary of sorts.
Yeah.
Sophia:Um, so that, that's my background. in a nutshell, just in a very, um, ministry based household and from a very young age. we spent almost our entire time around church or doing church-like activities. It was very much intentionally and organically faith-based. Yeah. Um, and my father, personality wise, he's a very passionate
Joyce:man. He is a fig, like he's got, just even like the few times I met him, he just has this like the charisma, right? Mm-hmm. Like you really need it as a missionary, you have to have a level of charisma to be able to connect with people. And he is Such a strong, fun personality and you can just tell he loves being Korean
Sophia:without realizing it. Yeah. He is so funny. He's very Korean. And another thing to know about my father is that he was raised extra, extra traditionally. Mm. his father, my grandfather was very traditional. There were, it was very con fusion household where everybody had very distinct roles. the woman, the man, the children.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:All by piety and also a very strong sense of duty. Mm-hmm. And a very strong sense of hierarchy and also very strong sense of gender roles.
Mm-hmm. Um,
Sophia:and my father was quite progressive. he's not really progressive, but he was progressive in that or his household. Yeah. For his household. Yeah. He broke out of a lot of those traditional modes. Yeah. Yet at the same time, he still was very traditional. So he himself would consider himself progressive. But if you compare it to other modern families, our household was very traditional. Yeah. But not as ultra traditional and still save you from the past. Past. Yes. Um, so that was how I was raised in a very, quite traditional hierarchal patriarchal, um, and, and very mission minded, ministry driven household. And my father truly loved the Lord. Yeah. And loves and loves the Lord. Yeah. Loves the Lord with all of his heart and, and, and all of his soul and all of his might. he was also very, purpose driven.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:Like, he didn't need to read that purpose driven book by Rick Warren. He, that's, that's just how he was wired to be. And once he realizes something is true and what is right, he will sprint Towards it. Yeah. Towards it. Without any, any pausing, without turning left to the right. He just goes full on sprinting. Yeah. And to this day he's still sprinting towards that goal. Yeah. And it's very noble.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:And it is very, admirable. Yeah. And from a very young age, I had so much respect and admiration for my father, and I knew that what he was doing was a higher calling in a way. Yeah. But as a child growing up in that environment and with the level of intensity, my father. For his mission for God. Um, when there were times when it felt very heavy. Yeah. When spiritually and maturity wise developmentally and maybe just, just like my own personality wise, like I, um, was not ready for that kind of spiritual pressure.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:And there were moments when it did feel like a lot of pressure instead of just a liberating gift Yeah. Of grace. Yeah. Of, of a freedom to enjoy God. There were a lot of rigidity in this is how we worship the Lord. Yeah. This is how we honor God. This is how we honor our parents. This is how you practice obedience to God. there were a lot of, Structures in place that I felt was, if I went and look back, was maybe, um, more than, than, than needed to be. Mm-hmm. But it was all from an intense love my father had for both God and for his children. Yeah. And he was very particular in doing things right. And he always said to me that because he, he himself was not born and raised in a Christian family, he always, had so much envy mm-hmm. For Christian families. he talked about when he was a child, he would walk past an American missionary family. Yeah. And he would see them worshiping, doing family worship. And he was like, oh, I wish I had that in my household. and this is interesting because, he implemented that in his own household. Yes. And now me, when I look back, I'm like, I, I grew up in that. Yeah. And I realize, no, that's not how I wanna do things. Like he had an idealized version Yeah. Of that American missionary family that he knew and he tried to implement it with kind of his very confusion ways. Yeah. And now I'm like, okay, obviously I still wanna do family worship. Yeah. But maybe I would do it a little bit different. Yeah.
Yeah.
Joyce:Um, what about your mom, because you've talked, you talked about your mom, so I'm wondering, was your mom more of just kind of like a silent supporter and she said, this is just how you do it as well.'cause your dad said so, or as I said, like
Sophia:my family was very patriarchal. Mm-hmm. So, A lot of the decisions were kind of dictated by my father. Mm-hmm. And another thing is that my parents are six years apart. My mother is six years younger, so already she was like much younger.
Yeah.
Sophia:and also she was not a Christian when they got married. Oh, okay. Or, or at least like she was a baby Christian. Yeah. So
she's still a young baby.
Sophia:So I talked to her about this and she just kind of came to the faith very, just casually. Yeah. She didn't have like a come to Jesus moment like my father did. Yeah. So, even when he got called to a missionary, um, she personally did not feel that calling. It was not like, oh yes, I'm joining you into This's mission. Yes. It was more like, oh yeah, this is the right thing to do. Okay. Okay. Alright. if my dad said that you wanna do this, she'd be like, oh, okay. Um, she didn't have a strong
Joyce:convictions. She didn't have strong opinions on things.
Sophia:Yeah. And she was still growing in enough faith. Yeah. Um, whereas my father was very, just very passionate. Yeah. Um, so I don't very much recall we with the spiritual practices. Um, my mother leading it was definitely my father who was leading it. Yeah. Um,
Joyce:okay. Okay. That makes sense too. Also'cause like when we've talked about just like our experiences of being in Oma too, it still like fits. Like your mom just was like, she was there, she saw herself from what I'm gathering is like truly just as the supporter Yeah. Of your father's mission. And she
Sophia:has said that. Yeah. I asked her, what do you think your role is? Mm-hmm. And she said, I'm a supporter.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:I support your father.
Joyce:Yeah. Which, honestly, knowing what I know about your dad, it was like a really good match.
Sophia:They are, a great match. Yeah. And I mean, I don't wanna give an impression that, yeah. Your your, your marriage wasn't any way.
Joyce:No.'cause they're so happy. Yeah. When you see them together, they look, you could tell she wanted, wanted Yes. They loved each other so much
Sophia:and she wanted a husband to lead her. Yeah. And she wanted, A husband will protect her and guide her, and
Joyce:that's what she got. Yeah. Yeah. Your dad definitely stepped into all of that for me. My, my, uh, I did not grow up in a missionary home, although all of my mom's siblings were either pastors or were pastors or they married pastors. My mom classic. She was like, no, but so for me, I, I grew up like primarily in Los Angeles, Southern California. So if you're a Southern California, Korean listening to this, you know that they're in General Koreans. I think at large, the cultural aspect of the church, like you go to church, it doesn't mean. You're a Christian per se, that you're a Christian home. But there's this cultural community because I think there's such a strong community base in the Korean church that you naturally are drawn to go to a church because that's where you find your community, especially as immigrants. You need a community center. You need support. Yeah. And they're so supportive. I mean, Korean churches, like you eat the meals there. I ate my entire breakfast, lunch and dinner, like I, and like it's a whole day thing. It's a whole day thing. Like, it's like you live your Sunday at church. Like, it's not like the American thing where you go for your service and you're out. So like for me church was kind of more of a cultural thing, like you go to, but not because my parents were big on cultural, like spiritual practices at home. Not because my dad or my mom said like, this is, we should pray at home or anything. For me, I kind of just naturally always had a strong draw towards God. Uh, even like when we would have like church nights, like as a young kid, I remember like I had to have been no more than five years old or six years old. They had a call to faith, like, if you wanna, and I was just like, this is so Korean.'cause even though we say we're Presbyterian, but we all function like a little Pentecostal, like
Sophia:Korean culture generally.
Joyce:It all weird. Yeah. It's like we say we're bap like we say we're Presbyterian and stuff. I'm like, but you come to a worship night and is, there is nothing Presbyterian by how we're functioning. Um, there. Yeah. Tongues, everything. Everyone's falling to the ground. but yeah, I remember like going and like praying and raising my hand and there was just something, a part of me that I always just felt like. Pooled towards the curiosity of knowing God. And it was always self-driven for me. Hmm. So, like my, and I think my, like, she recognized that, so she kind of poured a little into it. So like, she bought me like a picture Bible.'cause like I would, they basically raised me.'cause my mom was a single mom, so she worked all the time. So I was at her house and my aunt was a pastor. She was an ordained Baptist pastor. So I would dig through her Bible. Some, she eventually like found like a comic book Bible, but it was like thick. It was, it was not a child thick, like it was a, the link, same link that's a regular Bible. And I like flew through it and I knew all the stories. And I read it multiple times by itself, by myself, like, as just like a kid. And I would even have like encounters and like, this sounds probably weird for some people, but I remember one time being really sick. And I was like really sick. And they were worried'cause I kept having this recurrent high fever. And I remember in the middle of the night, and this was like I had to have been somewhere between seven to nine. I went to the bathroom and when I came back from the bathroom, I saw a person sitting on my bed. It was the middle of the night, it was glowing. And I was like, what's happening?
Sophia:You did not freak out.
Joyce:No. And so that's why I felt like it truly was an encounter with Jesus.'cause I felt peace. Mm-hmm. Like I wasn't scared, but I was kind of thinking, what's with the glowing person on my bed kind of deal. Right. Okay. It's, hello. Yeah. And I was just kinda like, and I remember he was just sitting on my bed and he was just smiling at me. And I just remember I was like crawling into my bed. Just locked eye contact. You are just gonna hang out with me tonight. What's going on? and it was like the Jesus I saw in the Bible. Like that was the Jesus I knew.
Sophia:So at that time, you knew it was Jesus.
Joyce:Yeah. I instantaneously, in my heart, I knew that was Jesus. Mm-hmm. Like it was, there was no question in my mind. And I was like, okay. And I just remember he was just smiling at me and I like tucked myself into bed and I pulled my blanket up and he was just smiling at me and I was staring at him like, sup? And then eventually I just laid down and I like opened my eyes and I thought he'd be gone. And he was still there. He stayed there until I fully knocked out.
Wow. Like,
Joyce:he was there every single time. I opened my eyes and then eventually I fell asleep. And when I woke up, my fever had broke. Um, and I remember I told my mom, I was like, oh, I think I saw Jesus last night, which caused a whole flurry amongst all the aunts. All the Emos came rushing and they're like inquiring, and then that's when like my kumo started realizing, I was like, oh, Joyce.
Sophia:Has gift,
Joyce:has faith. Mm-hmm. Like she was like, Joyce has faith. But I may have had that, but my faith still went in and out. But it was ever since I was young, there was just a natural, like there was a certainty in my heart that I was like, Jesus is real. Mm. Um, and I grew up in the church, uh, and, you know, classic Korean church kid. I, like my entire life was the church. So my brother was a youth pastor, so like a lot of my life was just kind of living life in church. Mm-hmm. All of my friends were in the church. Um, I went to junior high. Once I went to junior high, that's when my broke off and went to my own church, which my mom was very uncomfortable with, but she let go and let me do that. And I just went to church with my best friend at the time. And I was there at that church from all the way through junior high up until almost my senior year high school, which is when I moved. And I was like involved, like on the worship team, on the leadership team. That was my life. And so for me, I think it became more, it wasn't about spiritual practices, it was just community in life for me. Mm-hmm. That's just what it was. Um, and
Sophia:so what you're saying is that it wasn't like your mother at home like, Hey, sit down, let's read this bible together, let's worship.
Joyce:No, I watched my brothers pray. My brothers were, they kind of had like their highs and lows, but they're coming'cause they grew up in the faith in the nineties church revival. So in like in the nineties in Los Angeles area, SoCal, there was this crazy revival. And my brothers came to faith really during that time. Mm. And they brought me in with that. Mm. So I was like in like elementary school going to these like revivals at night, and I didn't know what was going on and I was just like, uh, okay. Singing vineyard songs, play the guitar. Um, but so they had like a very kind of like almost. On fire faith, but I think sometimes when you have fiery faiths, they're also very quick to extinguish.
Yeah. Yeah.
Joyce:So for my brothers, they kind of had this like up and down thing, but they love the Lord and I would like watch them pray and my brothers sometimes would be like, come and pray with me. But I mean, you're asking a elementary school kid, she'd be on hands and knees blasting worship now 1999 like music and like he's like praying and I'm like, I didn't understand. even though he was trying to kind of show me this practice, he didn't understand per se. Um, and so for me it was just kind of more of that was the closest I ever got to someone saying like, Hey, let me show you practice. I got really close to like my name, my youth pastor when I was like in junior high high school. And the pastor we got by the time I was in high school was much more practical and he was a little bit more Presbyterian, but he was also like, he kind of pushed into our faith practices a little bit more. Um, but yeah, so that was kind of like my childhood experience. And then once I got up to like, but that was really hard because my faith was tied to community. Mm-hmm. So once I moved in my senior year, I moved to San Diego, I didn't have that. And that's when my faith like completely crumbled. But even then, I always came back to the church. Yeah. Like, during really hard times of my life, I always ended up going back to the church. I may have left, but I had always ended up coming back to prayer and Bible and back and forth, back and forth. So it was kind of this thing of like, I always knew God was there. Mm. And he would like, pull me at times where I felt really confused and I would feel this draw and so I would go back to church. Um, and Tyler, my current, my, my current husband. My husband, my one and only husband. Yes. My husband. He, during that time. Had was in faith. So he, when we met in college, he was kind of the one who would take me to church. Um, and every once in a while. But yeah, so that was kind of, that was my childhood experience. It was like, it was very community based, very like living it just in my life. But there wasn't like a spiritual practice to like ground me. Um, that didn't really grow until I was in, I was post-college.
Sophia:Right. So what I'm hearing is that faith was an environment. Yeah. And faith was a culture. Yeah, totally. But there was not much structures. Mm-hmm. And there's not much foundation. Mm-hmm. And there wasn't like, a presence at home teaching you.
Joyce:Mm-hmm.
Sophia:Right? Mm-hmm.
Joyce:But
Sophia:then what I'm also hearing is that God called you.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:From a young age. You very young age responded to God and you had personal experiences of the reality and presence at God, right? Yeah.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:That's.
Joyce:I like even remember like just seeing, I would see visions and I'd have prayers, uh, like I'd have images when I was growing up and uh, every time I had them as a kid, and I mean like as a kid, elementary school age, I always knew that it was God or I felt like it was God. So I think the problem was it was a young child interpreting those things that I seen. Mm-hmm. And I think as an adult when I came to reality of like, oh, that's not truly what that image was about, that's when I was like having a really hard wrestle. I think that's when like conflicts, but I think it was better that I wrestled through that in my college years versus in my adulthood years versus childhood years. But yeah, I had always, God had called me and there was never a doubt or question of who he was in my life. Mm-hmm. I think part of it may have also just been because they have getting divorced. I think there may have just been like, your parents getting divorced, my parents getting divorced. I think maybe. I see it as like, God, I think was just protecting me. And so he gave me that level of protection. Um, but of something being steady in my life despite the chaos mm-hmm. That was going around me. Mm-hmm. Because he was the only thing that, like I look back all the way, he was the only thing in church community was like the only thing that was ever studied in my life, despite the rest of my life being pretty chaotic. Okay. Yeah.
Sophia:Yeah. So, looking back, let's think about, um, so this is how, this is our background Yeah. In terms of growing up in the faith. Yeah. Now, when we look back, what are some things that you felt was helpful in developing your faith, your spiritual habits and also just your relationship with God and what maybe wasn't as helpful? Um, in, in terms of the way you were raised?
Joyce:Yeah. Yeah. I think mine was like, I, I bet it's probably on the. Flip side and opposite of you, right? You grew up with so much rigidity and structure and mine had none. Uh, so I think letting a child try to navigate, I think there's a balance between allowing a child to navigate faith openly and freely. So that's unique and individual to themselves. But also as parents, we were called to guide and to provide some level of structure or at least an example. So I think for me what was helpful was actually living a communal Christian life.
Hmm.
Joyce:That was really helpful because it helped for me, faith was as a result, like faith is always communal. And that's true. Like our church, the church is communal. Like it isn't just like our own individual practice and our own heart. Yeah. There's a greater at large that we are called to. Um, and so I think for me and my mind has always been that kind of mindset of like a communal faith mindset.
Sophia:And I think that's part of being, um, growing up in Asian church. Yeah. Especially Asian American church because it's so pivotal. So my experience at church was also Sunday is a whole day
Joyce:thing. You were there. Yeah. Even not at the PA pastors k you were there day set up. And that is so
Sophia:I think that's so valuable in, um, really instilling this idea that Christianity, our faith is a community know thing. That this is the body, living life in the body of Christ. Yeah. And it's not an individual faith that you keep in your heart. Yeah. And it's a life, right? Yeah.
Joyce:And it's an actual, like, it's a practice in itself and it's not just something that we just go to.
Sophia:Right. And that's one of the things that kind of shocked me when I came to the United States and, attending an American church and oh, it's done and over in an hour. Yeah. And that everybody goes home to what? To watch golf or football or to run errands. It was, it feels very disconnected. It was kind of a shock to me. Yeah. That church on a Sunday is just one box to tick off out of all the other things that
Joyce:you prioritize. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that was like really something important. So that's why like current practice now, I'm like trying really hard to like build into our community group and like trying to build that. And I think I've been seeing the fruit of that even just like with Ian, like how he talks about, like he kept calling all of our, all the kids lot yesterday at community group, all of his cousins. Aw. He's like, my cousin came over and he was like pointing at one of our friends like daughters. He's like, she came over and we got to go swimming. And I was like, yeah, she's your cousin. We'll go with that. I was like, I like that. Yeah. I was like, yeah, we're all family. Mm-hmm. Like that's perfect. And that's what I want my kids to think of is like. Your church is a family. It may not be your blood family and it may not be your chosen per se family, but it's still a family, which means that you inherently love them. Mm-hmm. Um, the thing that wasn't helpful though was like just kind of being like no structure. Right. And like I think living it only as a community gave it no full deep root. Mm-hmm. Because there also has to be an individual aspect. Yeah. Because it is a relationship with God at the end of the day. And so I think that was really hard. But I think for me, I was just really blessed with having that connection with God as a, at a young age, that I was always attuned to it, even in the darkest of my life, like when I was deep in the partying and drug community. Like I still felt like the pings of God in my heart and I'd still feel guilty even though I had not attended church in years.
Sophia:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joyce:Right.
Sophia:That was this Holy Spirit. Yeah. And
Joyce:it was just like very clear to me and it was. And I remember in college, I told God, I straight up told him like, I just need to do it. I just need to live this so I can get it out of my system. And I think God respected that because that's just who I am as a person. Like I, I'm not the person who's like, I see the danger. I'm a walk around. I'm the person who's like, I see it. I need to know what's up. I need to know what it's about. And I have to experience it for me to be like, I actually don't like that. Nevermind. I didn't really like it. Uh, and so I think God was like, all right, at least you're honest. Like, you know what's up. I was like, I told him, I was like, I gotta just try it out.
Mm.
Joyce:But I know you're here and I know you're faithful and I, I love you. I think, I don't know. And so
Sophia:it was a time of wondering that, that, oh, there
Joyce:was a long time and God was still, but every time I was thirsty and needed a lifesaving, God was like right there, right. Um, just like Hagar and her son. And like she got when she thought everything was lost. And like God was like, no, look, there's water right here. Don't worry. I'm saving you. Like those moments are so real to me in the Bible.'cause I'm like, oh,
Sophia:that's what God
Joyce:did for me. Um, so even though
Sophia:you might not have been deeply rooted
Joyce:mm-hmm.
Sophia:There was still a seed planted in you that was waiting
Joyce:to grow. Oh yes. And so I think that that is a blessing, right? Because I think it may have just been the fact that'cause I was so deep in my community, that was the seed that needed to give enough root. So I think for me, it's also the practice I want like, that was not helpful, was just leaving me to kind of figure out my own fate. And so I'm hoping to, like, we bring a little bit more structure, we talk about God more in our family. We talk about prayer practices. We listen to devotionals. And not to say like it's structures, something like we have to do it, but just showing my child like, yeah, you can listen to the Bible when you're just in the card. You don't have to list. Read it at a very specific time in life. Like God is part of your life. He's not a really structured part of your life. Like he's just always there. So that has kind of been like what I've been trying to, I think what Tyler and I have been kind of like going into. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sophia:What
Joyce:about yourself?
Sophia:Yeah. you know, um, I was reading Deuteronomy six, that very famous commandment from God, um, the 6 5 2 7. Mm-hmm. It says, love the Lord with all your hearts, with all yourself, with all your strength. Mm-hmm. These words that I'm giving you today are to be in your heart. Mm-hmm. Repeat them to your children. Mm-hmm. Talk about them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Mm-hmm. Basically talk about God all the time. Mm-hmm. And when I read this and I think back to how I was raised, my parents followed this. Yeah. They lived this out. They love the Lord with all their heart, their soul, and their strength. And then they embedded those words into their heart. And then, especially for my father, he repeated them nonstop. Literally when he's sitting in the house, when we are driving, when we are on vacation, when we are having dinner, when we are having snacks, when we are about to sleep, it's like impromptu sermons. And, my father's sermons are more than two hours long, so I am not kidding. I don't need to say a word. There's no back and forth response of what does this mean? It's more he, he can talk on and on and on, like a sermon to his children.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:For hours. Yeah. There was one time when I was on a phone call with him for three hours and I maybe said three sentences. Oh my gosh. But that's, that's my father in a nutshell. Yeah. Just to give you an idea of like his personality. Yeah. He's a passionate, intense Yeah. Guy. so my, my father did his duty. Yes. But I think it was the way he did it. I think there was a kind of the intensity brought and, and the urgency that his children to experience what he experienced and sees what he sees. Mm-hmm. And feels what he feels, that kind of urgency and that, that kind of passion. Um, he brought it out in full force. Yeah. Upon us. Yeah. Rather than maybe because he was still young and he was jealous and he was a missionary to boot. Um, there was not much space for me to be self-driven. Like you talked about how for you. Your relationship with God was very much self-driven. Mm-hmm. For me, I don't think there was much space for there to be
Joyce:an autonomy. Yeah. Ever. Like a self-exploration of Right. How unique it is to you. And even
Sophia:when we talked about God, it was my father would fill the space with his words.
Joyce:Right.
Sophia:That there wast much space for me to really reflect, to ask. There wasn't much space for me to be interested.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:Because he was just like droning. I understand. Yeah. Like a drone of noise. And as a kid, like you're not going to listen to a sermon, you know? It's a sermon. Yeah. Nobody likes sermons. Yeah. people would dedicate a certain space and time for sermons. Yeah. For that very reason. You're not supposed to be sermonizing all day long. Um, and that was kind of what we got. And my father's idea of family worship, I think he really tried to control it.
Yeah.
Sophia:And he wanted it to be, maybe his idealized version was probably like kids smiling and. Um, you know, angelic expressions of wonder and awe of not Yeah. But that was not my face. My face was probably of boredom and really resentment that I'm dragged over,
Joyce:which probably then created a vicious cycle within him for like, he's like, I need to really make the point to my daughter'cause she does not look interested. So maybe if I talk even more, even more, then she will build that interest.
Sophia:Right. My memories of family worship are not good.
Joyce:Yeah,
Sophia:all my memories of my family worship is that it always ended in tears and screaming. Oh. Because like, someone would not listen and someone would just be like completely distracted. Which is when you expected
Joyce:young children.
Sophia:Yes. And I, and then my father, because again, very traditional household, there was a lot of, spanking.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:And it's not like. It's not general spanking. It's not, it's not like here spanked five times. Okay. It's more like the career spanking of like lifting up your palm and it slapping you over the head. Yeah. Like
Joyce:yeah. There was velocity.
Sophia:Yeah. There was velocity and that was a lot of this idea of like, you are not showing proper respect. Yeah. And ance to God, how dare you. And then there was a lot of punishment that also was like, this is God punishing you. The
Joyce:irony of this.
Sophia:And, I understand my father's, heart behind it. Mm-hmm. But the method was very harmful in the way I looked at God. Yes. Because God then became something like a chore, not, but not just a chore. But he was kind of a frightening person.
Joyce:Yes.
Sophia:He was not an enjoyable person. And I think this was The biggest part of what was lacking in the way I was raised when it comes to faith was the lack of joy. Yes. Church was not joyful. Family worship was not joyful. Prayers were long. Prayers were like 15 minutes long.
Yeah. Um,
Sophia:so like the, the dinner's getting cold and it's just another mini sermon. And I was like, okay, prayers are a drag. Right. So I didn't like praying, I didn't like going to church. Yeah. Um, I hated family worship. All fair. I did not like the Bible because we also had the Korean Bibles. There was like very, that old school, Korean. Oh.
Joyce:You know, you don't even know what you're saying. Yeah. I dunno what to say. Um, like, it, it's like King James and Korean. You're like, what is happening? So there was
Sophia:not much freedom and space to develop an intimacy with God. And I felt like I had a lot of intellectual knowledge. Yes. But I didn't know how to transfer that knowledge into my heart. Yes. And I couldn't. And there was also quite a bit of a shame and guilt involved because there was a sense that, I know God is important.
Mm-hmm.
Sophia:I know God is supreme and he's a good being and I'm supposed to love him.
Mm-hmm.
Sophia:But it's like, how do you force yourself to love something? Mm-hmm. And he was more of a something mm-hmm. Than a someone to me. Mm-hmm. And I would hear a lot of, like, he, there was so much knowledge. There was so many words describing God, explaining God, explaining the gospel. there was just so much chatter. Yeah. And there was no real experience. Yeah. Um, so I don't think I really felt the presence of God the way you felt him.
Mm-hmm.
Sophia:And if I knew anything about God, it was all through my father. Yeah. So my father was in a way, like my priest. Yeah. And he was my pastor too. Yeah. So that kind of complicates the thing. Yeah. He's my pastor and, and my father and he was intensity. And, and so like my father was a portal through which I knew God. Yeah. and so there was a lot of unnecessary baggage added to my, relationship with God and furthermore, because you were missionary family, even before I knew God. I knew mission.
Yes.
Sophia:And I don't think that's very, that was very healthy as well, because from my very young age, it was impressed upon me that my life has to have purpose. I need to be driven towards a righteous and noble goal. A transcendent goal of, building the kingdom, glorifying God, God, so much pressure, God, um, evangelizing, saving souls. and, that's great. Yeah. That every kid should be able to develop that. But I think there is a sequence to it. Yes. You know, God. And then because why do you build a kingdom? Because you,
Joyce:you know God and you have the desire. Yes. You
Sophia:love the king and you naturally want to talk about the king. and because there are people who don't know this beautiful, wonderful, awesome thing and. I, it was hard for me to feel that all.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:Because there was just so many le legal stuff soled into it. So getting into that. My relationship with God. This was complicated with the, my relationship with my own father. Yeah. And he's very strict ideas of what it looks like to worship God. Yeah. Um, and, and he has, my father has changed a lot. I think if he were to parent now, he would parent very differently. But back then he was a new, kind of a new Christian as well. He was jealous for his faith and he himself put a lot of unnecessary burden and stress on himself. Yes. That he repents off today. Yes. But you know, he, he was parenting as, as he was growing up. He's doing as best as he could. Yeah. As, as we are. Um, so I have a lot of grace and understanding for him, but that's just, that was just the reality of how I grew up. Yeah. And so, um, from a very young age, I have felt this invisible, this need to make something
Joyce:of my life. I remember talking with you about this and that was, I remember like even when you were transitioning to becoming a stay at home mom, that was a really big struggle.'cause you're like, but my purpose Yes. And my work in my, yes. And
Sophia:because I developed this idea as a child, I think I was, I'm, I was still kind stuck in that childish mindset of purpose driven life have to be something grandiose. Like, oh, going to the mission field. Yeah. Like going up to the pulpit and preaching or like saving souls or discipling people. Like something super hardcore. Yeah. And very tangible. Yeah. I just had a rigid image of what it was like to be a Christian. Mm-hmm. What it's like to love and honor God and what it's like to live life. Well,
Joyce:yeah.
Sophia:That,
Joyce:that is worthy of God's pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. So with like that experience, with that rigidity, like how much of that do you feel like you're gonna be bringing it into your home? Or do you feel like you're not going to bring any of it into home? Like,'cause there was still some good and fruit that came from your father's intent, right. Which is also grace from God.'cause it, I think it depends. there's something to be said about that the children and the parents are chosen for each other for purpose. Mm-hmm. Right. And so I feel like I think if your dad had done that to me, I would've been like peace if I had that as a dad. Like I think and knowing my personality. And so like our journeys are very different because of the purpose. so how much of it do
Sophia:do you wanna bring
Joyce:it into your home?
Sophia:Yeah. When you are a child, it's a little different. Like Yeah. I have a strong personality to it, and as I grew older, I butted head with, with my father a lot, but when I was younger,
Joyce:you were like, what is going on?
Sophia:I mean, you get whi
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:I don't wanna get whi I, I, I nursed a lot of grievances in my own heart. Mm. Yeah. But I wasn't really able to express it. Yes. And also that was part of the problem. I wasn't able to feel safe to go to my father and tell him exactly how I was feeling. Yes. Because in fear of another lecture. Yes. Or just like being told that I'm wrong. Right. To feel this way. Right. Um, yeah. So, yeah, again, like my parents lived up Deuteronomy six, five to seven. Yeah. And, when I look back, there were a lot of things that they did well. They did teach me. Fear of the Lord.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:Respect for the Lord. And also spiritual disciplines. Like every Sunday, I don't care how you feel about it, we are going to church. Yeah. There are certain things that is like, no, you don't get to decide. Like, for I am I family, we will serve the Lord. Yeah. And, and so every Sunday we do that. And then also, growing up we had a lot of missionaries coming to our, our family. there was just a lot of stories people's real life testimonies. Yeah. So even if I didn't myself feel like I really experienced God in an intimate, profound manner Yeah. I was filled with stories of God. So I, I collected all these testimonies of people I know whose life radically changed.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:Even though I might not have had a deep relationship with God, I knew he was real.
Joyce:Yes.
Sophia:And there was a period in my life when I did try to turn away.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:I had a really bad relationship with my parents back then, and I left home and I remember distinctly living my Bible Yeah. Behind. And it was a very deliberate act of like, Nope, I'm, I'm kind of done with this. I need to just like, figure out my own stuff. Yeah. I didn't go to church. And I remember when I left my Bible, my hands were kind of trembling. I was like, this is, this is a, this is an act. You're like,
Joyce:you knew very much. You like, this is intentional. I knew what it meant. Knew what it was gonna do to your parents by them seeing that Bible left behind.
Sophia:And when, uh, and again, it was very much tied to my relationship with my parents as well. Yes. My parents, my relationship with my dad was bad. Hence also my relationship with Right. God was bad. But I remember thinking, this is it. I don't know where I'm gonna end up with my faith now, but I'm gonna leave my Bible here and God, I'm not going to church.
Yeah.
Sophia:But at the same time, I'm praying to God that I'm not going to church. Yeah. there was never a moment in my life when I thought that God is not real. Yes. And that was a huge part to, to due to my parents. Yes. They did instill, instill faith in me. Yes. they instilled certain important spiritual disciplines in me, like going to church, tithing, prayer, the importance of church community. Yes. And the importance of living life, serving others for the sake of serving others. Yes. Um, being in raised in a ministry family, it was always, my parents lived it out. Yeah. They lived self sacrificially.
Yeah.
Sophia:The lead to, to lift up other people. Yeah. And, and I knew beautiful and saw it as beautiful. Beautiful. Yes. And I wanted, I wanted to do that as well. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So now with my own family, I, I mean to is three and Uri is 11 months now. Yeah. So they're still very young I wanna do what the Bible told me to do, which is number one, love God with all my heart, my soul, and my might. Yeah. And then also talk about him.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:But within. That commandment, there's so much freedom. Yeah. Within those boundaries, God allows so much freedom. It doesn't mean pulling them into a family worship. And we need to play the guitar and sing class hymns and open this Korean Bible and then read this ancient words. And then you have to sit still and listen to every word with a joyful face.
Right.
Sophia:I realize that God actually gives so much freedom in parenting and there is so much relief in that. Yes. Okay. God, there are just two things that you ask me to do in raising my, my kids in the faith. Number one, love you. Yes. Number two, talk about you.
Joyce:Yes.
Sophia:And so I'm experimenting.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:because we are still young. I, I think I'm just kind of like, okay, let's see what works.
Joyce:Yes.
Sophia:number one, I need to guard my own heart. And protect my own heart. Yes. So that my mind and my heart is not distracted and turned away from God.
Joyce:Yes.
Sophia:I might not be able to sit down and read the Bible for an hour, but I do try to implement spiritual disciplines in my own life where I am listening to God's word at least once a day. Yeah. Either, whether it is, um, turning on the Daily Liturgy podcast, which I highly recommend, or just, um, having the Bible playing
mm-hmm.
Sophia:Um, on audio. And one thing I started doing several months ago is that every morning during breakfast time, uh, we, we do bible time. Yeah. And I mean, Toby's not really sitting still there. He's running around. Um, he's bopping up and down. Yep. And Uri is, um, mashing bananas into her hair and she's squealing and there is kind of chaos, but I do it just for developing a habit Yes. Of Hey, this is important. I know that right now you can't sit still, but I'm still going to read this Bible. Yeah. It's the Jesus story Bible book. Yeah. this is what we do every morning because it is important to start the day acknowledging God. Um, and to be honest, the person who gets the most out of it is myself. Right. Because it's hard as a young mother to have these spiritual practices in place, especially when you don't have a good night's sleep. So you can't wake up early in the morning and be like, oh, let me have my Bible time before the kids get up. Yeah. Um. I kind of usually wake up as my kids wake up. Yeah. Um, so being able to sit and just read the Bible, even though it says Children's Bible the way a Jesus story book Bible. Yeah. It is, it is. So fun. Brings me to tears sometimes. It's, yeah. It is profound and I do all the voices. Yeah. And I try to make it as fun and then told, sometimes we'll get interested depending on the pictures or like if it's, you know, a giant fish or something. and then I read out from a liturgical book. Yeah. I read a very short liturgy.
Yeah.
Sophia:That's also for myself, it's like quite, um, mature language. Right. So it's really for myself, but to actually likes it when I read it. He might not pay attention, but he always reminds me to read from it. So again, that's kind of the habit thing. I think the practice, yes. He just have developed the habit of, hey, it's Bible time. Okay.
Yes.
Sophia:Um, and so that's where we start.
Yeah.
Sophia:And then, Before we go to bed, we always do prayer. Yes, I do the Lord's Prayer and he can kind of recite it now, recite it, the end of it. I would say Love it. Our father in and he's a heaven. Yeah. Um, and then he will want me to pray about five more times. Um, I'm not sure whether it is to God, but I think he just wants to prolong that time. Yes, yes. Um, but do I do that? Um, and then throughout the day I'm trying to be more mindful. Like if he hurt himself, hey, let's pray. Yeah. Um, or like he sad about something. Let's pray. Yes. God listens. Yes. Um, and then another thing that I do now, um. Um, so I'm always the last one to go to bed. Mm-hmm. So by then, everyone's asleep, and it's quiet. And it's the most tenders I feel for my entire family. Yeah. And I will creep into toe's room.
Yeah.
Sophia:Um, and I will touch, I'll touch different parts of his body. Mm-hmm. And that's when I really have a quiet time to just like, pray and I can actually hear myself and like if I'm touching his hand, I would just pray over his hands that God will have him have strong hands that will help others. Things like that. Yeah. And through that I will just pray for my own mothering. Yeah.'cause I, I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. I honestly don't know what I'm doing. that's why I ask a lot of these questions and sometimes other mothers feel like I'm trying to rush things, but honestly it's just uncertainty. Yeah. Like. Is, is this supposed to happen? I don't know. Yeah. And how am I supposed to discipline my kids? Yeah. Like I have so many uncertainties and every child is different. Yeah. And everybody's parenting philosophies are different. Mm-hmm. So I literally do not know what I'm doing as a mother. And so those are the moments when I'm like, God, whatever mistakes I made today mm-hmm. Um, I repent, but also just wash them clean. I ask you to purify it and help me. Let, let it not leave a mark on my kids. Yes. But also edify and purify my own heart. Um, give me grace. Give me patience. Give me wisdom because I need you, Lord. Yeah. Um, that's kind of a dedicated like two minute prayer Yeah. That I do. Yeah. Um, and then throughout the day, I'm sure you can empathize by, it's just a lot of like, oh, tri mind as
Joyce:well. Oh lord. Lord, help me see my children as you see them. Lord, help me see my children. Yeah, it's a lot
Sophia:of breeding breed out, um, Christ of desperation. Yes. Please do not yell. Just telling myself, don't yell. Don't yell, don't yell.
Joyce:Yeah. Yes. yeah, for me, like I've really just been focusing on,'cause Kean is a very curious child and thankfully his curiosity is very self-driven. So I've been working on building his curiosity and building that God is real. And so for us, we read the Bible and we pray every night. the mornings are really chaotic for us. Uh,'cause we have a really early drop off, so like trying to get the kids to, what, between seven 30 and eight to get dressed and eat and like get out the door is like so chaotic. But on the times that I have them in the car, I'll play from the Dwell app and I'll play their kid devotional and like I've watched Kean through the camera and he actually sits. And he listens. I don't know how much he absorbs, but that's not my job, right? Like my job is to simply provide the seeds to like provide opportunities to allow him to soak. But it's been really sweet to see him clinging onto the idea of family and community and to really be more inquisitive of God and to like even sometimes like the act of prayer.'cause sometimes when I am really struggling, I'll just say like, I really need to pray.'cause Alah is having a really hard time. And I think for me it's been really showing who to lean to in times of weakness, which is God and not on anything else. Or I'll, pray for forgiveness in front of them. So I think for me, I've never had that example of like humanity brought into faith. And also just'cause. I'm hanging on for dear life and the Lord knows, like, literally the Lord knows how thin that string is that I'm hanging on. I think that has been fruitful because that consistency, I've seen him, like I've told you, like, like after the miscarriage, Ian like comes out in prayer randomly, which I'm like gonna tear up thinking about it. Or like if I'll talk about like, Hey, we need to pray for somebody. He's like, let's do it. There's no hesitation in the act of prayer. for me, I didn't have any of that structure. So for me, I'm trying to kind of like figure out what does structure or life with God look like that's apart from just the community of the church, but like within the home. Mm. So that has been an interesting thing for myself. Um, and I think for me has been like actually now. Breathing and praying out loud more in times of my own frustration so that my kids can see, okay, you can talk to God. It doesn't have to be just at night. Yeah. Like you can talk to God when you're feeling really like you need help. And I've seen Ian do that. So, um, sometimes he may or may not low key scold me in his prayer, but that's cool. Uh, wow. He's like, help God. She looks really mad like, God help mom because she looks really mad. And I was like, I sure am. you should definitely ask God for some prayer right now because Lord knows the amount of anger that I feeling is on my body So yes, like it has been a very interesting journey of being a parent and Navigating faith.'cause it's so unique. Like we've talked about, like you've said, like, and it's so individual.
Yeah.
Sophia:But to summarize, it's, it sounds like for you, your main thing right now that you didn't have, that you want to have is some structure.
Joyce:Yeah. And for you, it's more of like allowing freedom to explore, but also showing practical ways of how to maintain a life that is still structured around the Bible and about God. But it isn't so rigid that you feel like you failed something if you didn't do it.
Yeah.
Joyce:Yeah. Yeah.
Sophia:So for me, like I still wanna implement the disciplines. Yes. Special disciplines that my parents raised me in. Yeah. But for me, the number one thing I would love there to be joy.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:Yeah. I want to Help create an environment where going to God is a joyful act. Yes. That God is someone that you can't wait to know more of. Yeah. Rather than this strict father like figure with a beard and arms crossed and like wagging his finger like, oh, oh, oh.
Joyce:Because that is not God. God is a God who is continually chasing you because of love, and all he just wants is relationship with you. Mm-hmm. Um,
Sophia:yeah. Yeah. And for me, I, I want my children to love God even more than I love God.
Joyce:Mm-hmm.
Sophia:Because I know my limitations right now. But I don't know how, like if I'm setting a standard for how much I love God, do, do they only meet to that standard? I don't know. Those are questions that I'm mulling in my head. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, I know that a lot of things are not within my control. Yeah. But again, just two things. Love God with all my heart, my soul, and my might and to the best of my capabilities. And number two, talk about God. Right. And then leave everything else to God. That's all we do, which is all we can
Joyce:do.
Sophia:And
Joyce:on that note, I think this is where we can close out. Great. Yeah.
Sophia:Heavenly Father, thank you so much for this blessing of being able to call you Father Lord. Just remembering that even though we are almost, that we are daughters first Lord, and help us continue to. Establish this relationship with you, Lord, where we can call to you our father anytime we want, and deepen our relationship with you, Lord, that we can truly love you with all of our heart and love all of us, so, and of all of our might, and that our kids can see the love that we have for you Lord. Mm-hmm. And that they know that you are lovely, that you are wonderful.
Mm-hmm.
Sophia:That you are someone to be delighted over, Lord I pray that for all of our listeners, that they will feel your love right now and they will respond to that love with natural, instinctive love, Lord, and that the children that we're raising, the next generation will be a generation that also will love you with all their hearts and all their souls and all their light. Mm-hmm. Praise in Jesus name. Amen.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much for listening. If you've been liking our episodes, please follow, like, subscribe, or leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. We'd love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and feedback. You can find us on Instagram at the old Oma Club, or reach out to us at the old Oma club@gmail.com. You gotta give it. Big thank you to Kevin Lar for our music. Until next time, amaz, may the Lord bless you and keep you sane, hydrated, and fulfilled the way only he can.