The Old Umma Club
Bare-it-all conversations between two "old" Korean-American women who became mothers in their 30s and left their full-time careers to become stay-at-home moms in their “geriatric years." Join their talks about faith, motherhood, marriage, community, and everything in between.
The Old Umma Club
Ep 7: Culture Clash in Marriage
Part 2 on Marriage, because apparently we have a lot to say on this subject, and it's an important one.
Joyce and Sophia talk about the subtle cultural clashes in their marriage and how that influences marriage conflicts, and how they're learning to manage those conflicts better. This is a rather transparent episode.
Reach out to Sophia and Joyce:
Instagram: @theoldummaclub
Email: theoldummaclub@gmail.com
Music credits:
"Life of Riley" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Hey Amaz, welcome to the Old Alma Club. I'm Joyce. And I'm Sophia. We are two friends in Los Angeles who had so many great coffee chats about our love for Jesus being Korean in biracial marriages and having kids mid-career, mid thirties. So we decided to turn it into a podcast. So grab a cup of coffee and
Speaker 7:join our conversations and by aching backs, motherhood, marriage, Jesus, and everything in between.
Speaker 8:You ready? Hannah? Two. Set. Set. Let's go. Let's go.
Joyce:Welcome back.
Sophia:We are back with Marriage Put two.
Joyce:Yeah, we, the conversation we had was so fun. It was also long and we didn't want to paint you guys with a two hour episode.'cause who does listen to that? Unless, I mean, you're really into Huberman lab. They do that.
Sophia:I listened to three hour episode podcast.
Joyce:You listened to three hour,
Sophia:I mean, not at one time.
Joyce:What, how do you remember even what the content was?
Sophia:I don't, yeah. I'm constantly being interrupted by, you know,
Joyce:that's the point. But we just wanted to summarize. So part one episode, um, was really just talking about our history of like how we met, what our marriage expectations and like what happened with our marriage, but also expectations of dating that led into what expectations were while married and like what the differences were in there. But the aspect that we didn't get to talk about is our cultural impact, which is what? Ama, the Korean ama. Like there's an aspect, um, and it definitely has an influence on like, um, has an influence on how we interact in our marriages and as our parents. So Oh, a lot of influence, I would
Sophia:say. Yeah. Yeah. Just recently I had someone ask me, um, if there have been any big cultural differences Yeah. Between David and I, because I'm Korean, um, and he's not Korean. Not Korean. He's a white boy from North Dakota.
Speaker:Yeah.
Sophia:And I, am a third culture kid. so given, the vast differences in our backgrounds, she asked me how that influences and impacts mm-hmm. Our marriage and also the way we parent. Yeah. So I thought that was really interesting question. I mean, I thought about that. When she asked me that question, I really had to come up with a response and I couldn't come up with a very quick, easy response.
Joyce:Yeah. I think culture is a really hard question because it's, you have your ethnic culture mm-hmm. But you also have your own personal family culture, right. And how your family chooses to interpret the Korean, the ethnic culture. Right. Right. So I think that my family probably has more Americanized leanings, so sometimes it's really hard when I was like reflecting on this'cause I was like having like divvy out it this family or is this Korean?
Sophia:Yeah. I had a hard time, um, differentiating between what is this our family and my family cultural. Real difference. Yeah. Or is it a Korean thing? Yeah. And I, I think also to complicate matters, both you and I identify as Korean American, but also We don't have a typical Korean family. Right? Yeah. Um, for me, my parents mostly hung away Chinese people. But my father is very Korean. Yeah. Yet the people whom he hangs out with, and our church that we grew up in was Chinese. All Chinese people. No Koreans at all.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean, I could totally understand that. in our family, my brothers were born in Korea, but they came over when they were like three and five, or like four and five, something like that. They were really young, so they don't carry too much Korean culture. And then they were thrown right into K-Town culture, which is a like. La Korean culture is a very different kind of culture. It's it's a niche. Yeah. It's quite a niche. Yeah. And even like the way you speak is like, you can tell when someone's from K-Town, like, I'm like, oh, you got the K-Town la accent thing going on. and then eventually we moved to Orange County. So like, we've kind of always lived in Korean enclaves. Mm-hmm. And the people we hung out with per se were Korean, but it's an Americanized version of that. And
Sophia:geographical differences. Mm-hmm. I mean, David grew up in North Dakota, small town, North Dakota. Right. I mean, Bismarck is the largest city in North Dakota, but even, even that is way smaller than Los Angeles. Yeah. he's a Midwestern guy, right? Yeah. So that comes with its own. Niche culture. It's different from east coast. white American family. Yeah. Right. And he also grew up, in a pretty conservative Baptist church. Very Baptist church. So that also gives a different, um, cultural background. Yeah. Like he, he has a lot of jokes about Baptist Yeah. That I don't get.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. Tyler grew up in San Diego and East County, San Diego, which is predominantly a white neighborhood, but his family is very diverse. even though his mom and dad are white, each of them like married into a diverse, family in a sense. Uh, like his mom is one of seven. very like mixed background and, you know, they eventually end up going like interracial, a lot of them, not all. Um, so there's some level of like interracial marriages already in his family line, that he's used to. So the cousin he grew up with was black, like half black. And that was the cousin that he has the most memories with. And his other cousin is half Indian. Mm-hmm. And then his other cousins are half Mexican, so it's like he had that level of diversity. But, you know, even still at the end of the day though, there's still like a white family from East County San Diego, which is still kind of a small town per se feel, uh, especially El Cajon where they grew up.
Sophia:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so given those differences though, when I talk to other, couples. Yeah. Who are, um, one of the spouses is Asian. Mm-hmm.
Joyce:One thing, one common thread that I do see is communication styles. Mm. The differences in communication styles. And I think for me, That's the thing that is the biggest cultural difference. between David and me. and that is the way we communicate, which leads to, um, the way we deal with conflict. Mm. Mm-hmm. And also even how we are after having a conflict. Mm. Our state of mind and our emotions after dealing with conflict. Mm-hmm. That all kind of comes into play in a marriage. Mm-hmm. And I would point that to definitely. A big cultural difference. Mm-hmm. because for David, when he grew up, um, nobody really yelled mm-hmm. In his house. Mm-hmm. Whereas for me, um, my parents yelled at me a lot, if they're angry or irritated, it's raising their voices. Um, though, to be clear, my parents never raised their voice at each other. They, I don't, they've never once argued in front of me at least. And I think they actually had very few arguments as a married couple. And I think that's mainly because my mother's gentle personality. Yes. but, there was a lot of yelling. There was a lot of hitting. Yeah. and also Korean language. Itself just sounds loud itself. Yeah. Like it's a very passionate language. Yeah. And there's a lot of ups and downs in our tones. Yes. But the language itself is just a loud language and it's not like Japanese where it's very softer language. Yeah. They all just sound
Sophia:so cute.
Speaker:They
Speaker 2:sound
Speaker:Yeah.
Sophia:And adorable. Yeah. Korean just, we sound like we are cursing at each other all the time. Yeah. So like when I'm talking with my dad and David overhears me, um, talking to my father, he's like, why, why are you guys arguing? And I'm like, what? Yeah. We were just having a, a discussion about
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:Theology or whatever, like, but then it sounds like arguing to him. Yeah. and I noticed too that The smallest irritation or the smallest, um, trigger of emotions, my voice immediately gets super sharp like a knife. Mm. Like a wel, sharpened knife. Mm-hmm. And that really triggers David. but then in my mind, I'm not yelling at him because I'm not screaming. Yeah. But then to him, I am yelling at him and that causes a conflict that didn't need to be there.
Joyce:Yeah. And that's like, again, an example of both ethno and family centric, like culture impacts on both ends. Right. Because I know that's like for Tyler too. Like when we first started dating, he didn't even like the word argument. Like he thought that meant that we had an unhealthy relationship. And it's the same. His parents never argued in front of him. Ever, ever. He can only recollect one time where his dad kind of got a little huffy. That was about it. Like ever. So he like, you know, he grew up around the context of like, parents and families don't argue. Right. And it took a lot of therapy for a therapist to be like, that's not help. Like you argue that is normal. It's just your parents chose to argue not in front of you. yeah, like for me, like my voice or it's just, I think, I don't know if it's also like a generational thing. I don't know if it is for you. I just feel like Korean emotions is a little bit more physical. Like it is a little bit more outward expression, right? Like, it's not a I'm gonna hold it in and it is just, it's, it's outward in the sense of like, even our physicality, our, our facial expressions. There's a reason why K drama is so good. But I mean like, yes.'cause the real life K drama is quite dramatic. Like it's, you know, and I think there's a level of bluntness that's not okay in like a more Americanized cultures. But I think for me, like the thing that's main difference in our communication, and I don't think this is so much of a Korean versus non Korean, or actually, no, I do think there's a Korean influence in it because I'm the youngest daughter. Right. And I have two older brothers, and I'm the youngest, like how I behave in a conflict with my brothers and my elders is very different with how I handle conflict with my cousins who are younger than me, like my cousins. there is an understanding that I'm the oldest. Mm. So therefore the way I speak to them is a lot more, or like authoritative. Okay. That's very Korean. Yeah, very Korean. Right. And then like when it's my brothers, I'm like, you cower little, I cower. and my mom's always like, why don't you just speak up? And I'm like. Because I've never been allowed to. I was like, what? What do you mean speak up? 30 years of me being told not to speak up and suddenly you're telling me to speak up. You should have told me this when I was seven. What is wrong with you? Right. And so it's like that level and that has bled into like other like leadership roles, like I have a very hard time speaking up because I'm like, it's so automatic. Like if they have a, a level of authority Mm. I like have this automatic like I do
Speaker 2:too. Like hard. It's hard for me to be like, it's like this respect thing. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker:That really
Speaker 2:is Respect,
Sophia:authority, respect that hierarchy. Yes, yes. Yeah.
Joyce:It's like not healthy, but it's like there. So I think I have. So like Tyler and I, when we talk to each other, when we have these conflicts, it's kind of also hard because it's like Tyler grew up with being, feeling okay and being able to have direct conversations with his mom. So if he's not liking something, he has conversations and be like, I don't like that. I don't think we should do that. And she'll respond. Well, versus like in my family, if I was to do that, I would get slapped back with, who do you think you are? you know, I'm your mother, or I am like your older brother, like you don't know much kind of deal. And so there have been times where Tyler's like you can talk to, like you can say that to like, you know my mom. And I'm like, no, I cannot physically let the words come outta my mouth in a way that's healthy. You seem programmed, you've been programmed not to. Yeah. It is always like, there is, I don't think you truly unders like, and that's what Tyler and I get in conflict all the time is like, he's like, just tell them. And I'm like. Bro, that I, I can't just tell them, okay, I need to go about this in a very diplomatic way of using my mom. Conflict is really hard'cause it's like, huh?
Sophia:Yeah. Would you say you're conflict averse sometimes? Is Tyler a conflict averse? No. No. Okay.
Joyce:He kind of is, he was at first in the more of the sense of like, he didn't want ever wanna have an argument. Got it. And he would get frustrated and I, I lean into like, yes, we can have an argument and still love each other, but getting now it's like flipped where part of it is like, I have a really hard time even registering my emotions and thoughts, so it'll take me days. Oh, I feel you on that. Yes. You know what I mean? I'm like,'cause it's, we weren't taught to recognize emotions. We were taught to like maintain a certain level of. Flat affect, but it's like, or be happy, be obedient, be, you know, be the subservient, not subservient, but like be the good obedient daughter. Uh, and so a lot of like emotion kind of pushed down kind of thing. So when I'm feeling something, I'm like in my head for a couple of days. But the problem is I get avoidant, then I like pull back, I withdraw.'cause I'm in my head contemplating over and over and over and over again. One, trying to identify what am I feeling? Two, is this something that's normal or am I triggered? Am I unhinged right now or is this actually fair? And then I'm like, okay, now I'm mad. It's like day three. Yeah. And now I need two days to be not mad before I bring this up. And then Tyler's just like, I wonder though if that's
Sophia:also a gender thing.
Joyce:No, I know a lot of women who don't, who are not like that.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Joyce:cause I, I do ruminate. Yeah. Um, the, the big difference is that, but I think women are multiprocessors. Yeah. Right. Because by the time I present an issue with David, I've thought about it for a whole week. Right. Right. Whereas, and then, and then it's just unleash on him. Right. Which is also not that great. Yeah. Yeah. But another Tyler will just say, right then and there, I'm like, we are in the middle of a Costco parking lot. Why would you choose this time? He's like,'cause I was feeling it. And I was like, what, what? I can't talk to you right now. And he's like, why are you mad at me? I'm like, you started a fight in Costco. He's like, it wasn't a fight. A worst place. Yeah. It wasn't a fight. It was me just sharing my feelings. I'm like. In a high stress environment, you might as well just throw dynamite in the middle of a firework stand. Like what? I know. But yeah, I know from like multiple sessions of couples therapy, women in general need to process over and over and over and over again, which is like, that's just how we do it. We're external processors, which is what like our therapist had kind of to tell, versus men don't really have that urge as much of like, I need to talk to a homie and then let me talk to another homie. Let me think about it. Like, women is like, you go through multiple drafts of emails, basically. Mm-hmm. Sense before you finally say like, this is the final draft. I also have cemented my feelings, right. That, yeah. And then
Sophia:we have this polished. Diatribe.
Joyce:Yeah. But it's a monologue and it's only one point of view. And our partners are like, what is happening right now? I'm like, sit down. I have a six page essay I need to read to you. Yeah.
Speaker:and just the struggle of especially being raised as. The Korean culture of like the woman, the daughter, and especially the youngest and levels of hierarchy and almost like levels of bureaucracy and there's formality and you know, and even being able to speak your mind and just say like, no, I don't agree with that. also, like, I tend to sit on and ruminate on things for a really, really long time.
Sophia:Yeah. I this is something that we are much more in tune now as millennial parents, but when I was growing up, at least in my family, there was no processing of feelings. Mm-hmm. There was no space for me, where my parents would sit me down and be like, what are you feeling? Right. What are you thinking? Share your thoughts.
Speaker 3:Right.
Sophia:That was really rare. But even now, even as an adult, um, there's only so much I can share with my parents without having an hour long sermon in response.
Joyce:Mm-hmm.
Sophia:So it makes me not really want to share. Mm-hmm. But then if I'm not sharing my thoughts and my emotions, then I'm not practicing even recognizing what I'm feeling and what I'm thinking. even to this day as a 37, almost 38-year-old woman, I have a really hard time recognizing my emotions. Oh, a hundred percent. So the only emotion though that I recognize is rage.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:And anger. Yeah. that is my BFF emotion.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:And anytime I feel any kind of negative emotion, it comes out as anger. Yes. Because that is the emotion I'm most familiar with.
Joyce:It is also the most primal. I remember from my own therapy sessions, my therapist said, anger is always the initial emotion because it's the most primal instinctual. She's like, then it takes practice and nuance to then be like, I'm pissed. Okay, but why am I pissed? Oh, because I'm feeling rejected, and then there's other feelings that have led you to get there. Right. She's like, but a lot of people just stop at the rage. Yeah.
Sophia:Because so I stop at what I'm expressing Yeah. Without really dealing with the more, the core reasoning. Yes. Yes. The core emotions and the feelings behind Yes. It, yes. Um, and so I, that really does impact our marriage and also I really identify with what you said about kind of having to repress mm-hmm. Not being able to speak out. Mm-hmm. So how that works out in my marriage with David is that I'm repressing a lot of thoughts and emotions in my day-to-day life. Mm-hmm. So I've been repressing my emotions for say weeks and weeks and weeks. And a lot of it I feel like, oh, it's no big deal. Oh, I shouldn't, I this shouldn't be an issue. Mm-hmm. But I don't address it right there and done. But then they add up because they're not being addressed. And then by the time it comes out, it's like an, an explosion. Yeah. It's like a volcano that comes out and it's all predominantly colored in red anger. And so when that comes outta David, he, he's completely taken aback, but also I'm unable to articulate why I'm feeling this way. All I'm doing is raging on him. Yeah. And also, again, because the cultural way ex, it was okay in, in my household to raise your voice. Yes. Yeah. That was normal.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:so I'm raising my voice and my tone is sharp and I'm just kind of unleashing. Yeah. That just completely disorients him and it makes him defensive. And then there's no way we can communicate by that point. And whereas my primary emotion that comes out is anger. Mm-hmm. David's primary emotion has always been anxiety. Yeah. it might be genetic as well, because his mother also dealt with a lot of anxiety and depression. Yeah. So he has, he has some of that It's predisposition. Yes. Right. So anger, bashing in with anxiety is really not a good mix.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:Yeah. And then, yeah, by the time I've unleashed and I'm like, ah, okay, I've done my part. I just, you know, so I'm like, do, do, do, go, go back to, um, cooking. Go back to my reading. But then David's just before David, he's just spiraling, shaken up. He's just spiraling. What the heck happened?
Speaker 2:I mean, I have to give so much credit to David because it's not easy dealing with me and I, he's never once raised his voice at me. Yeah. Whereas, um, I've raised my voice quite, maybe a few times, ever,
Joyce:a few times since Tyler has embraced having arguments in his family. The voice has been raised. we have raised our voices at each other. yeah, Tyler responds back with more of like, what the, are you? Yeah. But the thing I will give Tyler credit to is for me, I like do it and I need to step back and like I'm like, I need a breather for like three days and then I can come back kind of deal. I think part of it is just because I have not been taught how to process emotions not taught. To be given space to have emotions, like all of that stuff. So I think that has been hard. Um, but Tyler, he will push through and he'll like kind of dig his feet in and he'll try to go over it and over it. And then like sometimes we're caught in circles and it's because I just need to take a break and Tyler's like, I'm in it. Like, let's just finish this conversation now. And I'm like, no.'cause I've kind of hit my limit of being able to talk emotions.
Sophia:Yeah. I'm there too because David likes to talk through things Yeah. In a very calm and collected manner. But I'm too triggered for that, but I can't, I I physically have to just calm down.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:And it takes me a day, a while.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Joyce:Like I probably need, I actually need to go like go scream. I need to go punch a couple of pillows. the physical outlet. And I think that's also just me in general. Like I am just a physical outlet grounding person. Like I just ground better, regulate better with a physical outlet, like deep breaths. Mm-hmm. Just doesn't help my nervous system to come down to it. You need a punching bag. Yeah. I legitimately need a punching bag. I think that's what I've seen as a family. That's what I've experienced in the spanking. Right. I was the physical outlet that's the examples I was given. So that's therefore kind of like the bones in me is like I need to do something outlet. Um, but you don't really have that as much. So I think that's harder. To experience that, especially with kids around, you can't like go like punching things when there's a child staring at you.
Sophia:No, that would not be good. No.
Speaker 2:Oh, that this is one of the hardest thing about being a wife and a mother is realizing all the things that we need to unlearn and relearn. Oh yes. In real time when you're dealing with Yes. A lot of chaos in the house. Mm-hmm. And a lot of internal
Speaker:chaos
Speaker 2:as well.
Joyce:Internal chaos. The internal chaos is really what's so hard. And yeah, and I think, like I look at my children and I'm like, I wanna give you the space for emotions, however. I was never taught how to regulate emotions. So I am dysregulated and triggered by your emotional outburst because I just don't know how to react to it. And it's'cause we were just never given that space, you know, to do that. Like, when I was crying, I got mocked and so then I learned to cry hiding, like in a closet. Aw. Although it was interesting'cause like I remember my dad, I have a very specific memory of my dad, like finding me in the closet and he realized I was crying and he's like, don't cry like that. Like cry out here, cry out here. And he was so concerned. And I remember he talked to my mom, this was like after they were divorced and he's like, something's up with. Like, why is she hiding to cry? That's not normal children behavior. Um, but then, you know, obviously my mom's working, my dad's in Korea, so no one else was there So it's like wanting to give that to the kids, but also when you have that internal chaos of I don't know even how to keep myself calm, but I'm watching my child and I wanna give my child that. Like, I'm like, oh, it's so hard.
Sophia:Yeah. We need lots of prayers.
Joyce:Yeah. And I think that's like really hard about being a millennial parent is like us. Realizing that we need to unlearn.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think every generation. Complaints about being hard, but let's say, what's unique about our generation of parenting is that we've never had so much information before. Yeah. And given resources, we have all this information and there's a lot more research and data about how to raise the kids well. So we have all this information, but we still haven't figured out, how to implement those information, the knowledge that we have. And so, you know, like we have all these different schools of thoughts about gender parenting, whatever. And, there's a lot of gender parenting that I actually really like. Mm-hmm. And I think sometimes it has been mischaracterized. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's been, been very, very misconstrued. A lot of mockeries of it. That other thing is true. Gentle parenting. Yeah. All that to say, there's a whole ocean of information and knowledge out there that we haven't properly digested, and also because we haven't experienced it ourselves that we are trying to practice mm-hmm. While just trying to stay sane in the chaos of parenting.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um,
Joyce:yeah, and I think that tying it back to culture and marriage is, yeah. I think that's really what it comes down to also though, is that Korean culture specifically in a lot of Asian cultures, but Korean culture. Um, is very stoic. Right? and there's a lot of like layers to it in the sense of like stoic as in like we're allowed to show that we're happy. We're allowed to show that maybe we're angry, but we don't show like nuances. We don't give space for sadness. We don't give space in that sense We see children who have tantrums as disobedient, bad children, not as just a three-year-old having a three-year-old moment. Right. Everything we do is given with a good kid, bad kid mantra. Yeah. We are categorized. Yeah. Right. So there's like a certain level of shame that kind of comes with emotions because you're like, well, I'm a bad person for feeling this. You are not. You're human. And I think that's what's really hard. And so then I think then navigating feeling shame, And then you're also still trying to explain it and in a way that's healthy, but you're also battling your own internal like. Roots and then you're trying to like have a functional marriage and your partner is like, I don't get it.'cause they don't carry that level of shame. So they don't understand the shame. And so then they're pressing into something where you're like, it's a Pandora's box. Do not press this button. Yeah.
Sophia:Shame. Shame is a big part of the Asian culture.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:I mean there's so much talk about it.
Joyce:Yeah. Um, everything's morality. Right. Everything has a good and bad. It's not just, it is who you are, but it also comes
Sophia:from being in a communal culture mm-hmm. Versus individualized culture where shame has to do with how you project it mm-hmm. To, to society, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and I do battle too a lot with the thoughts I'm having or the feelings I have, and then feeling shame about it. Mm-hmm. That I'm not supposed to mm-hmm. Feel this way.
Joyce:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which then ends up with repression, which then ends up with an explosion. Yeah. So,
Sophia:I mean, it's not like. I explode every day. Right. It's once in a blue moon, but it's still bad enough where it does shake. a marriage. And it affects David because he's also the most sensitive person out of the two of us. Yeah. And him not being familiar and still not being used to that kind of conflict. It really does shake him. and then it causes me shame because I know it's not right. Mm-hmm. And I react in that way. So there's a lot of shame. And that shame makes me want to just hide.
Joyce:Mm-hmm.
Sophia:And because then I want to hide, then I'm again not going back to him and having a better, healthier communication. Right. Because I would rather just hide and avoid Yeah. It creates isolation. Right. Division between and also. Makes me not want to apologize because I'm ashamed of myself. Yes. It makes me so hard for me to apologize and it of like shows up
Speaker:as pride
Speaker 2:instead. Yeah. You're like, no, wait. Exactly. I thought it was pride that was causing me to have a hard time apologizing to David. And then I looked deeper into it and I realized really it's actually shame and fear. Yeah. Of almost like addressing that problem and vulnerability in that and I feeling like that problem is me. Yes. Because there's a lot of fear I realized that comes at as anger. Yes. I'm never afraid of David cheating on me mm-hmm. Or leaving the marriage. Mm-hmm. For us, divorce is not, It's not an option. We, we are in a covenant. Right? Yeah. And so I know that we'll stay together for as long as we leave but my biggest fear is that he will stop loving me.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Sophia:That I will no longer be lovable in his eyes. That he will lose affection and fondness for me, because it's like the death of many cuts. sometimes I feel like our conflicts, we put a lot of bandages over, but we are not dealing with the wounds. and there's a reason why I got angry, right? Mm-hmm. but then, because my reaction. Is so quite dramatic. Mm-hmm. We are focused on me and my reaction and not dealing with why I felt this way in the first place. Mm-hmm. then it creates more shame because I feel like I'm the one Who created this conflict when there was a lot more underlying things that caused me to have resentment. Yeah. Or, or anger or bitterness or whatever. Right. Yeah. And those things don't get addressed because we're more focused on me raising my voice and how David's Reacting to that. Um, and then it causes this cycle of fear and then me repressing emotions.
Speaker:Yeah. And then it's a cycle and shame is. Satan's like number one way of like, really?'cause it's not of God, right? Yeah. It takes us right
Speaker 2:back to the Garden of
Speaker:Eden. Yeah. it is such a great divider. Like it is such a good wedge because it hits you at the core of your identity. And I think that's what's really hard is for you to then, shake your shame, you have to then remember what's your identity. And I think that gets really lost sometimes because we're in the thick of marriage. We're in the thick of parenting and we forget to come back to rooting ourselves to what our true name is and who our true identity is. And then it divides us. Tyler doesn't carry that level of shame as much, but I also do think it's because Tyler has more confidence in the conflict of being able to stay in it and staying focused on. At the lighthouse, the end of it is we're gonna stay, we're gonna get through this to get to our marriage, to figure it out so that we can be here. But I'm like, I'm so deep in my own emotions and thoughts and like all that stuff that I lose sight. And then I'm like, what am I even pissed about at the beginning of it? All of this. So I feel like this conversation was a much more deep conversation about conflict in marriage. But culture plays a huge, plays a huge impact. And I think we can probably say that that's probably where it comes out the most is conflict. Um, and communication.
Sophia:Communication and communicating about the conflict.
Joyce:Yes. And communication that leads to conflict. Yes. And being able to resolve the conflict instead of like just sweeping it under the table. And I think that's like really hard. Um. Has there been anything that you've done that helps you with having better communication and also just addressing those kind of cultural differences? Therapy, therapy, marriage coaching, those are probably the biggest things. Having a neutral person that we can have our arguments in front of. Um, but I also like had to really check myself.'cause there were often times where it was just really me and I was just like, I don't wanna go in this conversation'cause I know they're just gonna talk about my communication skills and how I don't have any blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, that has helped. But you know what has helped me a lot is sometimes trying to differentiate. Is this me being triggered because of my own emotional component versus this is a conflict I need to bring up to my husband, is I pray about it and I'll like bring it and I'll pray on it. Yeah. And I'll usually, and I'll vent, I'll do my first draft of venting to God and I'm like, all right, Lord, here we go. Buckle up. And it's just like F-bombs galore. It's like me, I'm like, I am pissed and I know I can't bring this to Tyler, so I'm gonna bring it to you and let me just lay it thick. And I'm like, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. And then he said, beep, beep. I lay it all out because God at the end of the day is the only person who can handle that, who can handle that raw level of emotion and the volume. Yeah. Because it's not healthy for me to take that out on my best friend or something. Right. Um, and then after I have like that and I see how much more than I'm. No, I still have more in me and I'll continue to lay it out. Like just lay it all out was like in as much as I could, and then I kind of let it Do you do that audibly or just kind
Sophia:of in your head? Both. Okay.
Joyce:If I'm by myself, I'll sometimes say it out loud. Mm-hmm. Because I don't wanna, I don't want Tyler to be around and think, I'm like muttering about him under my breath. It's not a good look. No.
Sophia:But, oh, David sometimes mutts. Yeah. And oh, oh, muttering the one way to, that's not really rile me up. That's the muttering. Oh, she's so
Joyce:rude. Like, that's Tyler, that's Tyler's number one for me, if I mutter, it's not good. It does not go well for, for, but for me it does not go well. But, so I do it in my head while I'm like doing something mindless, like cleaning or washing dishes, and I'll like vent it out as much as I can. and then depending on what I'm like left with, then I'm like, if I feel better after that, I'm like, I just needed to get outta my system. Um. Versus sometimes I'll do that and then I'm like, no, this is still bothering me. And I'm like, I'm gonna let it sit for 24 hours. and then if it's still bothering me, then I, that's when I start trying to decide, is this something I need to talk about right now? Mm. And I'll kind of assess Tyler. Um, and then another thing I also do is if it's a behavioral thing that I bought that bothers me, sometimes I'll take note of it and then I'll just see if it's a re repeat.'cause sometimes as women, we are just so much more emotional. And it could have also been that I'm hungry, I'm tired, I'm strung out pregnant. Yeah, I'm very pregnant. And Tyler just happened to do the one thing that pissed me the hell off. And so I'm like, am I, is it me or is this a real you thing? And so I'll, I'll sit on it and if I notice if it's a pattern, then I'll kind of reflect on the pattern. Tyler doesn't like that and I think he needs to understand, like, as a woman, like that just makes most sense. I was like, I'm just trigger happy bro. Like you don't want me bringing out everything. And he's like, yeah, why not? I'm like, because it's a lot of things you don't know how often I'm getting triggered, like pissed. I don't think you want me to
Speaker 2:leave that. Maybe just test it unnecessary on
Speaker:Tyler
Speaker 2:at Costco one day.
Speaker 4:Yeah dude, the Costco. I was like, are you,
Speaker 2:at least it goes with you to Costco. I always go to Costco by myself. My, he has
Joyce:no choice because of this pregnancy complication. He would gladly not come. Yeah. David hates Costco. Yeah. Tyler hates it. But the one hour beforehand with the executive membership makes it worth it. We're in and out in 30 minutes. It's amazing. But um, yeah, so those habits have helped me in being able to be like, is this a me thing where I'm just, just irritated and everything's irritating me? Or is this like an actual thing that I need to talk about? Then also like venting my rage out and then I'll talk to a friend who is neutral minded, which is not always fun for me.'cause I'm like, sometimes I don't want them to be neutral minded, but I'll tell them, I'm like, I get it. Yeah. I was like, just side with me. But no, of course you're not gonna side with me. So I'll tell them like, I need you to be neutral minded. I'm gonna lay it out. This is what I'm thinking. And then sometimes they're like, yeah, it's a you thing. You need to just figure that out. I'm like,
Speaker 2:dang
Speaker:it. I see.
Sophia:So for you, it's like processing, venting, and then having someone who holds you accountable. Yeah. Yeah. Community.
Joyce:Yeah. The processing is the most important because I need to get the initial anger out. Yeah. For me to then be like, why am I so pissed? And a lot of it is me venting and then be like, but then, and then I'm like, I don't, I'm like, why? And like I'm like processing with God. I'm like, why am I so mad? And then also with like. Really, really big, deep hurts when Tyler has done something where I'm like, like really hurt.
Sophia:Mm-hmm.
Joyce:And maybe I don't say anything in the moment'cause we're in the middle with the kids or something. I'll like lay it at the feet of God. And like, I think God has held true in being my defender. And there have been times where I'll so hurt Deeply hurt and shocked by that even being a thing. And then I'll just pray to God. I'm like, God, like I'm so hurt by that I don't know if I can even bring it up. And then typically like without fail, maybe later on Tyler circles back and like, yes, that's him being a good husband, but also that's me seeing God as being a good husband and father. Mm-hmm. Where I'm like, okay, I was right to actually be really hurt by that. Like that was a valid thing for me to be really hurt by. Yeah. And also like, thank you God. So for me, like those moments are sweet.'cause then I see God in those moments versus seeing Tyler. But those have kind of been like my checks.'cause before I used to just like fly off the handle and it was just like overwhelming. Um, and so now I've like kind of tried to create safety checks of like yeah. Helping me process.
Speaker 2:Yeah,
Speaker:yeah,
Sophia:yeah. marriage, even though marriage is such an organic mm-hmm. relationship I realize how important it is to be systemized Mm-hmm. That feels unnatural at first. Mm-hmm. But it's very necessary because just living it up to your organic self. Mm-hmm. Um. I think a lot of times the devil gets in the way and the sin gets in the way and your organic self doesn't always project the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And sometimes you need systems in place. Yeah. Um, so it sounds like you have your systems in place
Joyce:slowly. Yeah. And they're not fail safe, like, you know, but they are helpful. Helpful, yeah. Yeah.
Sophia:Personally venting doesn't help me Yeah. To God, because if I'm just in my mind venting to God, it turns out into just a venting session, that makes me even more angry because I'm coming up with a billion other reasons why David is a terrible husband. Yeah. And if I'm venting, I can always root for more reasons to be angry at him. Yeah. And because it's just in my mind. it starts with a cry to God, but then it becomes very much of an internal, just processing, just an internal venting. Where, it is almost like the devil gets into my brain. Mm-hmm. And then I think I'm praying to God, but really I'm just letting the devil play my brain.
Speaker 3:And
Speaker 2:actually, the outcome is worse than before. For me. I really need to actually sit down and journal, because the act of writing slows me down a little, but also it helps my mind go from just emotions to being able, able to see the written word really helps me just calm down. Yeah. And also, um, like a physical
Joyce:outlet. Yeah. And be
Sophia:a little bit more logical and rational. I can still be honest in processing my emotions and my thoughts, but at the same time, it's just that concrete written word really does help me ground myself. What's been really helpful to you? Instead of just writing, oh, this is how I feel and think. Um, as a former journalist, it's been helpful to just write down this is what happened, and write it as objectively as possible. Okay. Like, starting with, this is what David said. And then I said this, and then he said this and he did this, and then I did that and, and kind of writing it down narratively, almost like writing just a story of what happened. Um, it helps me take a step back and look at what happened in a more objective point of view. so having that journalistic background, I think it has really helped me, just to be able to process things, In a more healthy and logical way, and to be able to see things outside of my own perspective, and that's been very helpful.
Okay.
Joyce:Yeah.
Sophia:And then because I'm slowing down, the Holy Spirit actually has space and time to work inside me. Yeah. And that's when I really do feel convicted about things. But also, like you said, there are times when there are things that you need to be convicted about. Yeah. But there are times when No. Like, it's not just you. Yeah. You know? Yeah. There are things that you do need to address with your husband because he did this and this and this that were not right. Yeah. And your reaction to it might not have been healthy. Right. But this is something that you actually need to address together. Yes. And for me, writing and journaling is one that wisdom and d discernment is able to come.
Joyce:Mm.
Sophia:Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm very much of a written processor. So what David and I have been doing too is that sometimes we can't just talk it out. Instead we text. Because then we can really slow down when you're texting. And also both of us express ourselves much better and clearer when it through the written word. And, I don't have the sharpness of tone. like you can't really sense my irritation when I'm writing things. Yeah. So then it doesn't trigger him and we just trigger each other feels more neutral. Yeah. So that's one of the systems we have when we dealing with conflict that just needs. To take a step back and brief and that the Holy Spirit brief in us. Yeah, yeah,
Joyce:yeah. Our therapist a long time ago, used to have us hold hands, like maintain physical contact, which is a way of grounding because like you can't fly off the handle if you're actually holding hands with someone. And so it forces proximity. So there's a level of intimacy versus, like for me, Tyler can get, can tell when I'm getting more and more, like I'll just start stepping back and like my arms are crossed and I'm like physically distancing myself from him and creating like a larger gap. And she used to have us, which I was like. It's a good practice.'cause sometimes it kind of helps remind me that he's a real person,
Sophia:you know? Yeah. It also reminds you that you guys are connected. You are connected with a spiritual And a physical bond. And a love of intimacy that nobody else has with you. Yeah. Um, and that is a really good reminder to have and to clinging onto and to, to stand upon when you are communicating and when you're in conflict. Um, very recently, David and I had a major conflict and it could have gone really badly. Because I was busy and I was just like, there were a lot of things that, you know how, like the mental load of being a mother? Yes. This is tiny things that are invisible, but it's there. It's there and you have to do it. It takes up space and it's just like, you feel this sense of busyness. Yep. When it looks like you're doing nothing. Right. Yeah. But anyway, David comes in, in the middle of the day and then just tells me he's mad at me, and then he goes. Like the reasons why he's upset at me and my immediate instinct was to be very defensive. Yeah. And then from defensive to attack mode.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Of like, well you do these things too. And then I was just not in a space to receive and hear what he had to say. He also chose a very inappropriate time. But yeah, there's also
Joyce:wisdom. Yeah. That people need to ex practice and being able to choose when to share things that are emotionally loaded. Like not when your wife is in the middle of doing crazy housework, timing or when you're in a Costco parking lot. Definitely not Costco.
Sophia:But anyway, like both of us would not in a good state of mind, in a good state of mind, and I could feel like, okay, this is getting outta hand. Yeah. Whatever we is going to say is not going to be Fruitful, yeah. Um, and so I kind of just had to take a step back and I remember thinking. I need the Holy Spirit right now. Yeah. And there were words in the tip of my tongue that I just wanted to spit out. Yeah. But it was one of those like really precipitous moments because once you say certain things, you can never take it back. Yeah. Even how many apologies you make, you can't take it back. The person heard it and it's gonna stay like, like rust. it will affect your marriage. For very long term. Right. So I was just trying to bite my tongue and then I think David also had his moment. Mm-hmm. And then he just said, you know, I love you. And just saying that one sentence actually really that did help because it, Put me away from the defensive mode. Just a reminder that, oh, he loves me. And we are. Together. And we are partners. Yeah. And we are a team. But it also address my deep rooted fears, like I mentioned that I'm unlovable. Yeah. So just him saying that it was a great assurance and a comfort to me. And then I felt it's so much easier to just calm Down and really just listen. and we worked it out like right then and there. and then after that, the next day when when Woody was taking a nap, I journaled. Yeah. And that whole system really did help. Mm-hmm. And it actually helped the marriage. And that conflict actually really did. Produce a lot of fruit. Yeah. Like we came up with new ways to feel connected Yeah. Throughout the day. Just because of that conflict that could have gone so badly.
Speaker:That's
Speaker 2:amazing.
Joyce:Yeah. Yeah. Journaling is hard for me. I just,
Sophia:it's not for everyone. Yeah. But I personally, I, I still think that it could benefit everyone.
Joyce:I think it could benefit everyone, but it's, I literally, I think my handwriting gets, I just, I, because I get really bad tendonitis from grad school. Oh. So once I start writing, I can't write more than a paragraph'cause my tendon flare up and then I literally, it just looks like Lyme. Maybe
Sophia:you should text a note to yourself.
Joyce:Yeah. I think typing helps. Mm. Typing is a good alternative. But I do like the idea of journaling.'cause it does force you to slow down.'cause you have to think about what you're going to write. Right. Versus just blab like going on and on. Which I with my venting. I have to be mindful about it. For me, sometimes I do allow the ranting to go because sometimes I just have to get it outta my system. And so I just like rant and rant and then finally I'm like, okay, I'm done. Yeah. I could feel God be like, you done? And I'm like, yeah, I'm done.
Sophia:All right. God,
Speaker:late to me now. Yeah, I'm done. And then I kind of just sit on it after that. Like then I just kind of like can have space to process. Well I think we have come to our conclusion.
Sophia:It is interesting that out of all the topics we've hit on, it's the marriage thing that we could go on and on. No.
Joyce:cause it's just so deep and there's so, it's so complex. There's so much
Sophia:to it. Yes.
Joyce:There's so much. Alright, well let me close us out with prayer. I hope that you guys have been finding this. Interesting. And we would love to know, obviously know like what other people have been experiencing their cultural like differences or their experiences too. So if you guys have Any other thoughts or inputs like, or even your own reflections, please write in the comments'cause we would love or send us an email. Yeah. Um, but let me close this out with prayer. God, we thank you for the gift of you. We thank you that you and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the first to give us an example of what true covenant and relationship and marriage looks like. And that it isn't based on a human relationship, but Lord, it is based on you, the great creator of all things, um, and the great savior Jesus. God, I just pray. For every person who's listening to this podcast episode and for Sophia and myself that Lord, that as we navigate through the complexities of marriage, um, complexities of parenting, complexities of being a human being in a complex world, that we would remember, that we would remember the simplicity of it all, which is that we're at the end. Our identity and our foundation is based on you and the love that you have given us and the names that you have given us. Lord, I pray that, um, if there are people who are listening, who are navigating through their own hardships, I pray that there would be grace on them. I pray that, Lord, that you would be surrounding them and hovering over them and protecting them, and pouring wisdom and discernment. I pray that for Sophia and myself as we go through the rest of our days and our week, that, Lord, that you would also just give us discernment and wisdom as well in our own marriage, Lord.
Speaker 3:We
Speaker:thank you, God, that you are the great provider in all things, Lord, in spiritual, emotional, physical, and mental. Uh, and uh, we pray that we rely on that. In your name we pray,
Speaker 4:amen.
Speaker 9:Thank you so much for listening. If you've been liking our episodes, please follow, like, subscribe, or leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. We'd love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and feedback. You can find us on Instagram at the old Oma Club. Or reach out to us at the old Amma club@gmail.com. Gotta give a big thank you to Kevin MCL for our music. Until next time, Amma, may the Lord bless you and keep you sane, hydrated, and fulfilled the way only he can.