Season 2, Ep 4: Disciplining Our Kids...What Does That Mean? (Part I)

Discipline is one of the hardest parts of parenting. But first, what does the word "discipline" even mean? Because when we first discussed this topic, each of us had a different interpretation of it. 

In this episode, we share how our own childhood experiences of discipline have shaped our philosophy about "discipline" and the way we respond to our kids today. We talk about fear-based obedience, the oft-quoted "spare the rod, hate the child" verse in Proverbs 13:24, the generational chains we’re trying to break—and the ones we still fall into. 

This is a candid, personal conversation about unlearning, relearning, and trying to discipline differently than we were disciplined.

We want to get to know our Ummas! You can find Sophia and Joyce: 

Instagram: @theoldummaclub

Email: theoldummaclub@gmail.com

Music credits:
"Life of Riley" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Transcript

0:02

Hey Amaz, welcome to the Old Alma Club. I'm Joyce. And I'm Sophia. We are two friends in Los Angeles who had so many great coffee chats about our love for Jesus being Korean in biracial marriages and having kids mid-career, mid thirties. So we decided to turn it into a podcast. So grab a cup of coffee and join our conversations and by aching backs, motherhood, marriage, Jesus, and everything in between. You ready? Hannah? Two. Set. Set. Let's go. Let's go. Hello, amaz.

Sophia 0:38

welcome to season two, episode four.

Joyce 0:41

man. Do we have a topic for you today?

Sophia 0:46

Yeah, this is quite a sensitive topic, actually Joyce and I had a good text slash audio message conversation about this just this afternoon, um, where we did a pivot into what we wanna talk about for this episode because we're talking about discipline and the word discipline comes with a lot of different understandings and interpretations of what that means. And also just instinctive triggers um, the connotations that surrounds it,

Joyce 1:23

Yeah, and I think it's a very easy word to have a lot of projections onto because of our own personal experiences,

Sophia 1:31

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 1:31

whether it was our own personal experiences as a child or things that we started interpreting as we developed and got older and, and also became parents. But yeah, discipline has, I think especially with current culture, it can be welcoming or polarizing depending on how you go about it and where you're at.

Sophia 1:53

right. I really wanted to talk about this topic for this season because this season two, the theme is in the trenches. And one of the things for me, I was speaking for myself that makes this season really hard, is that we are entering this stage where every single day there seems to be conflict. and there seems to be behavior issues that I need to correct or and it's the smallest thing, like having dinner, getting ready for school, getting ready for church, or just playing having quiet time. All of that seems to pop up conflicts. for me, that has been one of the more challenging parts of parenting. knowing how to set boundaries and trying not to be permissive in my parenting, but also trying not to be overbearing in my parenting and trying to find that good balance gentle correction without the harshness, but then also. Needing to set very clear and consistent boundaries. And h what do I expect from my kids at this age? Because each age has different, age appropriateness in terms of discipline and boundaries. but also, like having an idea of it, but then also how to actually practice it and implement it. And there's a lot of tension in it for me. and there's a lot of struggle. Like when it comes to disciplining our kids or setting boundaries and formation of their character and all that, I feel like I'm just bumbling. I have a vision, but in my day to day, moment to moment, I struggle with how to leave it out.

Joyce 3:38

I mean there's a vision, but that's also called an ideal. And we don't live in an ideal world, and you also have the volatile factor of child, and you can still execute everything about your ideal way of disciplining or correcting or a boundary setting. But you still have a child and you have a toddler or. Not but older child. But either way it's like we can try our best, but you also have the wild factor and wild card of still dealing with another human being, right? And they themselves have no idea of what ideal is because they just live moment to moment and everything is new to them too. And I get that and I think it is a struggle. I think also, when it comes to your first born particularly, everything is new like, and so it should feel like it's bumbling because everything you are first born does is brand new everything. They are constantly carving the path and you're like, what is going on? You're like, I'm like, well you didn't do that two weeks ago. Why is that now happening? And it's nothing short of humbling and pride slashing and constant. Evolving as a parent. And that's really hard 'cause you can never just set into a rhythm, right? Like with a job, a regular eight to five job, you eventually find a structure and you're like, this is how we go. This is how we move. This is our rhythm, this is our schedule, this is our pathway. But with the child, you can't do that. And you also put in, the other hard factor of breaking generational habits. we also have the factor of, we're trying to be different from our parents, There's some things that we're still carrying on from our parents. There's also other things that we're trying to break, and I think that's something that our current generation of parents and motherhood, we don't give ourselves enough credit about is that everything is gonna feel bumbling, everything is gonna feel hard, everything should feel unfamiliar because we are trying to parent our children in a way that we have never been parented. Like I am for sure, parenting my kids in a way that is very different from the way that I was parented. and as a result, because you are learning something simultaneously while doing it, all the while trying to teach yourself and regulate yourself, you also have to provide the regulation, energy. Extra energy for your children to help them stay regulated? It's a lot. I think it's very taxing. I think it's very hard on us psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, as a nervous system, which is a very hot word right now. and I think it's going to come with a lot of moments. Like I would say that's where I know my mom rage comes from. But I think that's also why it should feel, very much confusing and hard and challenging because we can't parent off of the blueprint that our parents gave us, right? So it's like we can use a little bit of the structure and foundations, but I think especially in the word topic of like discipline, at least for myself personally especially, I can't use anything that was used with me, so. It is really confusing and hard

Sophia 7:05

Yeah, if you're basically starting out from a

Joyce 7:06

Yeah. Which I feel I would not be surprised if a lot of people right now feel like that. and I think that's why there's so many social media inputs and accounts and everything, right? Because it's like people are constantly looking for guidance and for help and we're trying to find a new person to kind of blueprint off of,

Sophia 7:26

Well, I would say that I am very thankful and I respect my parents, but I would still do certain things

Joyce 7:33

yeah.

Sophia 7:34

them. But let's talk about even just the word discipline,

Joyce 7:38

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 7:39

because Joyce and I I don't know if disagree is the right word, but, um, we a discussion about just even using the term discipline because for me, discipline is just part of parenting. it's not so much that I have a positive connotation with it, but it's a neutral connotation, I would say. Whereas. Joyce, you can speak for yourself. What do you associate with the word, the term

Joyce 8:08

Yeah,

Sophia 8:09

when it comes to parenting?

Joyce 8:10

so when Sophia and I were talking about it, it. For me, the word discipline was really off-putting, is I think what I said initially. And I said I had concerns about us using that word because for me, the word discipline has a pretty strong negative connotation. But also I was really struggling with like, okay, are we talking about discipline as in like we're disciplining our children or are we talking about discipline as in we're teaching our children to have discipline, which they kind of still go hand in hand in being disciplined and having discipline. But for me, being disciplined has a really negative connotation. I think part of it is also the groups. Like for Sophia when we were discussing, she's like, oh, like I know a lot of parents, and that word is neutral for the parents. I know. I said on my end, that word is not neutral. Uh, and it's actually pretty strong negative. And a lot of it is because a lot of my, the, the groups that I've fought that I am with, have maybe been negatively influenced by the Christian world of the word discipline.

Sophia 9:14

Can you explain what

Joyce 9:15

yeah, so I think in, in the sense like I have some friends, or we've kind of grown apart in the past several years. Um, but I know people who have used the Bible to, justify spanking and corporal punishment. And, you know, I I have friends who spank and I'm like, that's fine. Like, that's your choice. That's, that's totally fine. however, it's cool if it's, that's your choice and you're keeping it within your own family. And it's, I think, within reason, uh, not beating your children, uh, which is what I had experienced as my own childhood. But, I've had then friends then go, and to tell people and to convince, try to convince other people. Like, oh, Bible says that we can spank and we can use the rod. So like, you know, you should totally do it or try to go on and do it. And that's where, it's obviously rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, where they're like, okay, that's your choice. That's your choice, but don't try to sit here and try to convince me. and then tell me stories about how you're then going around telling people to convince them that you should all do it and that it's justified. so yeah, I think it's, the circles I stand that I'm kind of in is the word discipline has a much he negative connotation to it. Yeah.

Sophia 10:32

Yeah, I can, I can see that and I totally understand that. for me, Discipline equals setting boundaries. discipline equals, raising a child and correcting him or her, and guiding and forming the character. So to me, discipline has just always been like a, just part of parenting. So I was a little taken aback and confused when Joy said, oh, I'm, I'm worried that the term discipline might sound judgy. It's like, what? because, in everyday word that I use, but our understanding of the semantics and the culture surrounding is different. I think one of the most used verse that a lot of Christians use to justify spanking would be Proverbs 1324, says, whoever spares the WR hates their children, but the one who loves the children is careful to discipline them. I was raised this way. in fact, every time my father, us, he would quote that verse,

Joyce 11:32

Oh, that's amazing.

Sophia 11:36

I don't know where he stands now, but he felt like he was biblically justified. And that was a very literal interpretation of the scripture of like, oh, the actual physical rod that you used to hit. so I can totally see. The ick factor that instinctive, ooh, that's not, that doesn't feel right, that doesn't feel comfortable, that doesn't feel biblical. depending on how people around you have used that word. but when I use that word, it's more about character formation. more about, again, boundaries And also I would say giving appropriate consequences.

Joyce 12:17

Yeah, even when I, as I hear you talk about what you see as the word discipline, for me, I'm like, oh yeah, that is discipline in the sense of having discipline, having a focus and guidance, right? Like you, to be an athlete, you have to have discipline, right? You have to have boundaries. You have to have goal formations. You have to have forward movement. You have to have consequences to your actions. Like there's things that happen, right? And there's corrections that occur. And so for me, I think I understand discipline as in like having discipline. helping my child have discipline, um, which is like an end goal to have. Right? But I think ultimately where you and I stand is still the same, but I think it's just the word itself is so triggering for some groups right now but I think as all parents, we can all say, yes, we want our children to have boundaries. Yes, we want our children to know what's right from wrong. we want our children to know what's safe and not safe. yes, we also need to provide correction and consequences to their actions because some things need to be corrected. and some need guidance. Like I think ultimately the end goal or the actions that come with that word are still the same, but I think it's just how people are choosing to use that word nowadays. Is very different.

Sophia 13:41

Right. Yeah. This is where it gets so tricky with semantics because people, again, have different interpretations and understandings of what that means. So when someone says, I'm disciplining my child, one person would think it's almost synonymous with

Joyce 13:55

Yeah. Like harsh corporal punishment.

Sophia 13:58

you're

Joyce 13:59

Yeah.

Sophia 13:59

Like the Bible says, better or hate your child. Um, so I do think this is where, especially with parenting, stands to be always curious and charitable to, actually understand where the person, what that person means, and where that, where that comes

Joyce 14:18

Rather than just jumping the gun and putting your own projections and assumptions underneath it, because you just never know.

Sophia 14:26

Yeah. And way you feel about the word discipline would be the way I feel about the word punishment. just a while ago I was reading a Bible story. Um, it was a new Bible story that just came with this homeschool curriculum that I bought, mainly for activities with tov. And, um, it was, you're talking about Genesis three, right? And they're talking about Adam and Eve and they disobeyed God. And then they said something about how because they disobeyed God, God had to punish them they were afraid of God. And that immediately set a trigger for me, just the word punishment. and then I put it on Instagram because I was just curious if my reaction I wasn't clear if I was just being reactionary and I was just curious what other Christian parents

Joyce 15:21

and you reached out to me too, and I was like, that's a little weird. That's a weird word. Like you and I have both the same feelings of, that's an odd choice of words. It doesn't seem biblical to me, but

Sophia 15:33

Yeah. So I put it on Instagram and I had a whole bunch of responses was kind of split. There were parents who said, Ooh, I don't like that word punishment. I would probably use like, not that they had to suffer punishment, but that they had to suffer the consequences, which is probably would have been the, the word that I choose. Um, I would've preferred the word consequence. But then there were also other, other Christian parents who were like, God does punish. I thought about it and I thought about scripture as a whole and I was like, you're right. God does punish because the Bible talks about God's punishment.

Joyce 16:13

It's not unbiblical.

Sophia 16:14

again, it is not unbiblical because at first I was like, oh, that's so unbiblical. But then the more I thought about it, I was like, no, that isn't unbiblical. But there are a lot of nuances to it because for example, this bible story were for like four to five year olds. So for me, four to five year olds, they don't even have a relationship with God. They don't know who God is. their understanding of God is so based off their parents and, to me, I was thinking this age, I really want to first cement a good foundation of them knowing the goodness and kindness and mercy and, love of God. then when they're separated from God by sin, then they actually really feel the consequences of sin. You have to know the goodness of God you to feel the brokenness and the devastation of being separated from God because of sin and how, ghastly and how hideous sin is. And then ultimately you have to point to the gospel where Christ for all of us sins and punishment and condemnation and consequences on the cross for us. And it still ultimately constantly points back to the love of God. So there's nuance there. Yes. There is such a thing as sin. Yes. God hates evil. God hates sin. And in the Bible it even says God hates evil doers, not just evil. He hates evil doers. Um, and does punish. There are many, many examples in the Bible where God does punish someone for the sins. Just like when he punished David for killing

Joyce 17:57

Right.

Sophia 17:58

with, with a life, with the life of his son, like such a severe consequence, right? So I stand in this tension of like, okay, the Bible is not morally ambiguous. It is very clear, very bold, and very strong in calling out what is wrong, what is evil and what is sin, But then come to parenting, especially parenting young children who are just forming a knowledge of God, who is just forming a relationship with God. And so much of that relationship with God is based off the relationship with you. As a parent, I feel like I would want to be a bit more careful with my language. I not refrain from using the word sin, but it has to be set on the foundation still of the love of God. Yeah, so there's a lot of nuance to this topic discipline in parenting.

Joyce 19:00

I think punishment is tricky, the word itself, because it's ultimately a consequence, right? it's hard because it's like you made a mistake, therefore you were going to receive this purposeful, negative consequence due to your actions. but yes, I think in the context of children, I would be careful about using the word punishment. Because it's also a really harsh word and it's a hard word to understand. And I think for kids, like it's a word that I don't think people even really use around their own children for the most part. Like they don't say, this is your punishment for the day. Like we say, like Right, like we say this is what's gonna happen. I know, but I think it's still a weird word. It's hard word for a child to understand. You know what I mean? I think maybe it's also because we're older and so therefore maybe we're overcomplicating it. as a child, they just might see it as like, okay, they did something wrong and then they got something that's called a punishment. But for us, we understand the connotations and years of

Sophia 20:03

Yeah.

Joyce 20:05

and the words and what you see the word punishment attached to. Right? And there's like judicial systems that use the word punishment. And so like for us, the word punishment has such heaviness. For a child. I'm like literally thinking right now as we're speaking, I'm like, it's probably very simple and they're just saying like, oh, that's just something that happens when you do something bad or when you weren't supposed to do something. but I think as parents we tend, we're protective of our children of the greater whole. Right? So I think sometimes it's like, do I really want the word punishment in my child's vocabulary right now, or do I want a different word attached to the character of God?

Sophia 20:43

so if the kids do take it very simply and not with as much baggage that we as adults do, that it then ultimately matter what words or phrasing we choose.

Joyce 20:54

I think, I still think at the end of the day when we think about what happened and the Garden of Eden. I don't think it was a punishment. I felt like it was a consequence. It was just something that happened that once you eats, once you allow sin to enter into the world, it's what sin does to you, which is break you from God. But I don't think it was punishment because punishment means that it was put upon us. Right?

Sophia 21:22

Right, like a retributive

Joyce 21:25

right? It was a purposeful action that was put upon you like, yes, I punished you for that action. I chose to put this thing upon you and to do this to you. I think in the Garden of Eden, it was not a purposeful action. It was more of you ate from the fruit of like the tree of knowledge. I told you not to do that. Sin has entered the world and sin has now broken you and me apart. Sin has also now broken your bodies and has broken this world and this is what is going to happen. And God, I felt like was laying out what was going to happen. and so I think that's where it's tricky is like God didn't want us to be separated from him. So I think that's why the word punishment didn't make sense to me in that specific context because I'm like, God didn't choose a purposeful act of being like, well, you're separated from me, so I told you not to do that. And so now I need to punish you with all these negative things.

Sophia 22:24

fact he told them the consequences, but then he immediately told them that there will be a rescuer A savior. And he covered the shame with animal

Joyce 22:34

right. He closed them. He still lovingly made clothes and he cloth them and he still gave them grace and that they were still able to survive. They were still able to eat. He gave them the gift of multiplication That they can have children and grow and still carry out god's command of be fruitful and multiply.

Sophia 22:52

Yeah.

Joyce 22:53

And so I think that's why the word punishment was not like, it didn't make sense to me in that point. God sure does. Punish. I mean we look at the Old Testament. there was a lot of

Sophia 23:04

right.

Joyce 23:04

nope. You did this. Now I have to do this because I am a god of justice as well,

Sophia 23:10

Right?

Joyce 23:11

right? So I think sometimes we so focus hard on God being a loving God that we do for forget that God is a, a just God that there is righteousness, that there is good and wrong.

Sophia 23:22

yeah. even just thinking about Genesis three, the consequences were so disastrous for generations and generations to today. But at the same time, Genesis three is also not just a story of brokenness and separation from God but it was also a story of grace. God's grace and mercy. And I think that's what for me, like that is what, um, the lack of a better word, like biblical discipline, uh, healthy discipline is where warned them what would happen. And then he stuck with his word. But then he also met them with so much grace and compassion and mercy, and promised them a way out.

Joyce 24:03

Yeah, I get that completely.

Sophia 24:05

Yeah.

Joyce 24:06

mean, God is a consistent God and I think we as parents, that's sometimes really a struggle for me, personally, To be consistent with my children. And it's also honestly, really hard. I'm like, I now have to do the thing that I told you that I'm gonna have to do if you do the thing I told you not to do, and now you did the thing and now I have to throw it away. yeah, I think consistency is really hard. consistent boundary setting and follow through is very hard. and to do it in a way that's not triggered and to do it in a way that is gracious and to do it in a way that is loving, I think it's very hard.

Sophia 24:40

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 24:40

Which kind of like for me segues us into the thought, like our upbringing, like I would love to know, 'cause you had talked about it already of like your dad was actually quoted Proverbs 1324 which also I was like, that's like, so like loving in a sense of like

Sophia 24:57

Not all the time, but he

Joyce 25:00

he would remind you

Sophia 25:00

was a verse that he often quoted. and I always just took it as fact, as like, oh, this is what God said. But then the more I actually studied that verse. About spare the rod, hate the child. the more I come to an interpretation and understanding that the rod does not actually literally

Joyce 25:20

a physical rod, right?

Sophia 25:22

a cane. The rod, a shepherd's rod was used to guide and like when a ship went away, you just kind of use it to, oh, oh, oh, come back, come back, come back, come back. so, that forms my idea of what biblical discipline is, is that it's forming guardrails

Joyce 25:39

Yes.

Sophia 25:40

Because there's another verse in the Bible, where it's also proves, proves 22 6 says, train up a child in the way he should go. And when he's old, he will not depart from it. it really goes hand in hand with what my idea is. Like you are, creating pathways and going alongside step by step with this child and showing him which way to go. and that is what I think the word rod means so that you are guiding them that they don't go wayward to where, that will be harmful for them.

Joyce 26:15

Right. I think if you really think about, typically in the Bible, we're always comparing us as the sheep, and Jesus is the shepherd, right? And if you really think about who the shepherd ever hit, it was never his sheep. It was always the enemies, right? It was everything that tried to attack the sheep. The shepherd used, the rod to hit any wolves, any other creatures that were trying to attack his sheep. And I think if you really think about it, like you were talking about like walking hand in hand, as you were talking about that, I thought about, I'm like, well, what I see shepherds moving with their flock. What is happening? They're typically standing behind and the sheep are walking in front of them. Right? And that's kind of what we're doing with our children, is they're walking ahead and our job is not to actually carve their path out specifically for them, because that's not life. We can't always carve them out for it, but

Sophia 27:09

Yeah. We can

Joyce 27:10

we can't control it. We can't dictate what kind of path and where they're going to walk and how they're gonna walk and what paths you're gonna do. We can't do that. but as the parent and as a shepherd, you stand in the back and you can see where they're going and you're kind of trying to help guide them and maybe give them influence, give them guidance, give them assurance of like, yeah, I think you're doing a great job. Or like, Hmm, maybe we shouldn't go in that way. Like you let me know. And we kind of give that guidance with that rod that you're talking about. And I think sometimes there is a misunderstanding of how, like, I think with us. I think the way that we grew up or the way that I grew up was using like the fear base and probably a lot of anxiety. Like I think about me as a parent and the times that I kind of lose it on my kids is oftentimes anxiety and this fear of what is to come. And sometimes I wonder if the way that I was raised and punished or disciplined, uh, was not so much because my parents or my brothers were like, we're gonna guide you. But it's more of a fear of what I may become. So therefore we're going to give you this punishment so that you don't become that thing. But we ultimately can't control, another human. At the end of the day, that human is still gonna make their own decisions, but Fearmongering does have a wonderful way of working sometimes, but it doesn't have a lasting impact. It's not the actual thing that's gonna last.

Sophia 28:40

Well, we both talked about how we do want to parent a little

Joyce 28:43

Yeah.

Sophia 28:44

maybe for you completely differently. maybe we can talk about how our upbringing has actually shaped us and left an imprint in us where we might know this is not way to discipline, but that's our upbringing and the way we would discipline, impact the way we react to our kids' behaviors in the moment to moment daily life.

Joyce 29:05

A hundred percent.

Sophia 29:07

'cause the radically we might have beautiful ideas about how we're gonna discipline our kids, but in action, how does our upbringing us?

Joyce 29:15

the old church that we went to, his past, he did a talk about like generational sin in trauma. And I don't know if you remember the quote that he said, but I said, Jesus is my heart, but Moses is in my bones. And that really sticks with me because as much as I have Jesus in my body and in me, and I have the Holy Spirit living in me, the pains and the chains of the generations that have come before me still sits in me and it's carried on. And even they've shown science of like how, depending on the type of trauma that the mother experienced, it's. Why is the baby in utero? and it's just in case the people are scared. It's chronic trauma. Okay? It's not just you had a lot of stress in one moment. It's like the whole entire pregnancy you're experiencing this, or for a prolonged period of time. I know it comes out in me like it's part of my mom rage. we've talked about in our episodes of like our mom rage. when I go into my mom rage moments, I can see moments of my childhood all over again. And I'm like almost reenacting movement by movement, the trauma and the influences that I've experienced. Because I would rather spare details, but it was not one of gentleness. sometimes it was like logical and like, I think reasoned. But I would say a lot of the memories that I carry with me, that I still have ingrained in me were all triggered and incoherent, explosive rage and anger.

Sophia 30:49

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 30:49

I've had many things thrown at me. I've had many things broken on me, so it's like I'm gonna cry. I have not been able to walk after some experiences for a couple of days. So it's like as a child that imprints on you pretty hard. And I think that's why like. Word discipline carries such heaviness for me.

Sophia 31:19

Yeah, I see

Joyce 31:20

Yeah. and as much as I try so hard to not be my childhood, it's it me. 'cause it's what I experienced for decades, So if that's like the only thing you have to model, you can't help but to fall into it every once in a while because it's what you know. It doesn't mean that it's what you want for your children. It doesn't mean that it's what you hope for as a parent. But it's the default behavior and it's really hard and takes a lot of effort to break out of that. So that's why I have so much weight on how I choose to parent my kids

Sophia 32:05

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 32:06

because it's, I don't want them, I don't want the base that they live in to be the base that I had. And it's not to say that and it's my childhood has, has, has been wonderful and so good and so much love. But yeah, those moments that have happened, it's they stick with you and I can't help but also think about like the times where I have lost control and I chose. To discipline my children in a way that I was disciplined. And it carries so much weight and guilt upon my heart. 'cause I'm like, crap, is this memory gonna stick with them? Like the memories that I have?

Sophia 32:44

Right.

Joyce 32:46

It's kind of scary to think about that.

Sophia 32:49

Yeah, because you out the consequences and you know how it feels like. you don't want that

Joyce 32:56

Yeah. But I think at least at the end of the day, I have never heard an of, sorry. Right. I have never been told, you know what, Joyce, I'm so sorry. I lost control. I should not have hit you that hard for that long. And not to say that I hit my kids for that hard and that for that long either, but, I still tell them like, I am so sorry I messed up. You didn't deserve that. You too. You messed up too. And I will call them out on, and I'll be like, you should not have done that. I'm, I'm gonna let you know that you still should not have done that. And I also should not have done that. And I'm sorry, like, let me take that burden off of you. Like you didn't deserve that.

Sophia 33:37

yeah. You already are carving a new puff.

Joyce 33:39

yeah,

Sophia 33:40

and that is a major step repairing, we talked about this in our first episode.

Joyce 33:44

yeah. What about for you, Sophia?

Sophia 33:46

Yeah. I think when I look back on my childhood, I never once doubted my parents' love for me. And even when they were angry at me, I was securing my love of them. And I think that's why when my, my friends, my American friends are so shocked that I was spanked growing up. I still feel this instinctive defensiveness from parents. Because when you just hear it, it sounds horrible. But at the same time, I grew up in an environment of lots of love and affection, there were also a lot of gentleness. but those moments of explosive rage, even those moments where it was not explosive, but it was like a structured corporal punishment. Those stay with me. It made a mark on me to the point where when I have discussions with my father about it, we seem to have completely different memories of how I was raised. Like he say, oh, I only scream here and there a little bit, I barely touched you. I'm like, oh, that's not how I remember it. but that goes to show, I'm sure. of the times where I can count the times when he hit me, there were a hundred times more gentleness involved that didn't mu as much of a memory on me. And I would say to this day though, I do philosophically have inherited this instinctive, and it's not logical, intellectual, basic, instinctive philosophy that I need to inflict fear on my children for them to obey. and that comes out in birth when I'm overstimulated, when I am not operating out of, a wellbeing, but out of complete overwhelm, then I default to something that's more instinctive. That is I need to scream and make my children afraid of me so that they shape up and I want to change the behavior right

Joyce 35:54

Yeah.

Sophia 35:55

I need to stop

Joyce 35:56

Immediacy, right? Like there needs to be an immediate obedience, which is how we were raised. It's like we need to be immediately obedient.

Sophia 36:04

fear based and it's control based and it's anger based So basically it is out of rage and it is out of wanting to inflict fear, but also there's a fear in me that, oh no, my kids are gonna become, like spoiled breaths or my kids are going to be, this horrible

Joyce 36:20

Yep.

Sophia 36:21

I have a legitimate fear that I'm gonna become a permissive parent when I'm pretty far away from that, but still in that moment, I'm like, I let this go.

Joyce 36:30

It is gonna be 500 steps ahead of me before I know it. Yes.

Sophia 36:34

Yes. If I don't reign them, this is a slippery slope towards

Joyce 36:38

Yeah.

Sophia 36:39

So there's that fear that is unspoken, but it is very ingrained in my brain and that comes out as fear. And then there's that need to control the situation for whatever reasons. Whether it is he is really annoying me right now and I need to stop it right now so that I feel safe or I'm not as overwhelmed and overstimulated. There's like a need to control that situation by controlling his behavior. And the consequences of it is very short term though, that's when I lose track of the long term view of parenting. And it's always just like short bursts of short term behavior control.

Joyce 37:20

I totally agree with that. I don't think that's just a you thing. I think that's quite a large generation thing. I would say a lot of people, just say like nineties kids in general, a lot of people who are Christian and not Christian, talk about like the fear that we were raised with and like how our parents used fear on us. And they're like, I've seen videos of people being like, can we just bring fear mongering back as a parent tactic? You know what I mean? I mean, it works if you are wanting to control your child for that very moment. And just like what you said, it's a short-term gain, long-term loss. Like it has no long-term benefits except maybe creating a lot of anxiety in our children. Like that's not the long-term effect that we want our children, we want our children to not have as deep of a mental health issue as, uh, as I have. As we have had, as I've had. But I think, the way we were parented and the way we were raised, we weren't taught in a way to also deal with emotions. And I think that's what's hard is like, just like what you talked about is like a lot of, I think raising our kids and disciplining them or helping them be disciplined is controlling our own fears and our own anxieties. And our own emotions, to not project that onto our kid. And that is so hard if you have never been taught how to do that.

Sophia 38:41

You have to be disciplined to discipline your child

Joyce 38:43

right? Like, uh, my kiddo, he gets OT and I was talking to her about the things that we've been working through and you know, I was like, we really need help in understanding how to, help Ian when he gets really excited, when he gets dysregulated in certain things, certain situations. And she's like, yeah, you guys as parents have to be really cool and even keel. And I was like, we'll work on it. I was like, we're not. She's like, yeah. She's like, you have to be very calm 'cause otherwise that's gonna feed into his behavior. And I was like, yeah, we're not calm. We're not calm people. We are highly dysregulated. We are highly dysregulated.

Sophia 39:25

For me, that's like 99% of the problem. I

Joyce 39:28

yeah, if I could stay calm, I feel like man, parenting would be different world. And I think to give light at the end of the tunnel, I have noticed I've been getting a little better, um, with practice. I think the reason why God's discipline or God, the way he moves and he loves on us is so consistent is because he's a consistent person and he doesn't get triggered. he doesn't get dysregulated.

Sophia 39:54

thank God for that.

Joyce 39:55

Like, he was very focused and he was regulated while he was on the cross. and we don't have that kind of example and we weren't given those skills and we're trying to. Provide that for our children while also doing it, which is what I think is a whole other factor of like why disciplining feels so hard, or parenting feels so hard and correcting our children. 'cause sometimes it comes out of our own triggers.

Sophia 40:22

and it is so. good discipline is so labor

Joyce 40:27

You have to be so focused.

Sophia 40:30

I think when I am completely maxed out and I scream, one of the reasons too is that I'm taking the easy way out what I think is discipline and, instinctively I think, it works screaming child works like punishment works because I never dare to raise my voice at my parents. was not one of those American kids who can slam the door and say, I hate you, that I would've never even dared. Because the consequences were, corporal and obvious, right? Like, I would not dare to blatantly show disrespect to my parents and willfully disobey them without suffering quite severe consequences to it. And so it worked. my behavior was measured and I was able to have those like quote unquote good behaviors. not always, but because of the way my parents disciplined me. So in those moments of overwhelm, I think, yeah, it worked for me. It would work for my kids. And The more I think about it, it's really because I'm looking for an easy way out of actually discipling my children.

Joyce 41:43

Yeah, I get that completely, and yes, we were taught well to hold our tongue and to be obedient and to be proper, and to be respectful, which are good. To be a respectful human being is a good character. I want my children to be respectful. I also want my children to control their emotions. And I think the way that we were taught to be respectful and to be obedient, obedience is a, like a, a side note to that. But to be respectful, it came with fear. It, it wasn't taught like, okay, I see that you're really mad, let's just talk about it and let's work it out and teach you how to control the emotions. So I think the problem was it just put a bandaid, But it never,

Sophia 42:27

Yeah.

Joyce 42:27

I'm mad at my mom or I'm mad at my family or something, but I wasn't allowed to express that emotion and I wasn't taught how to do it well. So instead I just have it a storm inside of me. And I was never taught what to do with the storm. And that continued on into adulthood. Every time I experienced high emotions, high things, I had a storm. And I was just forced to really put it down. And I think the hard thing is with parents was like when you, once you become a parent. Especially when you're trying to change things up and you unravel things in your own self that you're like, oh, this is a problem. how am I supposed to teach you in this moment? How am I supposed to disciple you into a regulated human being? If I am still learning, if I am actually learning way behind you too, like we're doing this together.

Sophia 43:17

Yeah.

Joyce 43:18

yeah, I think that's hard. And I will also touch on like the corporal punishment and spanking. I think within the Asian culture, I will say part of it is a comradery that kind of helps people get through it, Like, you know what I mean? Like it's, it was very normal in our culture.

Sophia 43:37

growing up in Singapore, they'll be like, yeah, my father, belted me. Oh no, my father like whipped me.

Joyce 43:44

yeah. And so it's like almost like oh, mine's not as bad as that one. So I guess I'm pretty good.

Sophia 43:51

but kind of like covering it with

Joyce 43:52

Yeah, that's like what I'm doing. Like it's trauma. It's trauma. We're discovering trauma with humor. It's a defensive mechanism. It's not a healthy one, but it helps us get through those tough times. It was normalized, which kind of takes away the sting in a sense, but it doesn't mean that it was still not the ideal. And Tyler and I, we have that very different experience

Sophia 44:13

Yeah. David and I had very different experiences too. I don't think David was ever yelled at by his

Joyce 44:18

Tyler said they rarely got yelled at, never got hit, was threatened, like his mom would take a spoon out. But literally that was all that it took to put the fear of God in him. And I was like, dude,

Sophia 44:31

Take a

Joyce 44:32

dude,

Sophia 44:32

My gosh.

Joyce 44:34

I wish what? I wish that worked on me that did not.

Sophia 44:40

for me, growing up in a Asian country, was reading American books where the punishment for misbehavior was grounding or go to your room without dinner. I was like, what? What? Like, that was my first exposure to a different way of discipline that I was just like, flabbergasted. It's like, what? Then how would ever kids behave? I would love to be grounded. I would love to be sent to my room and just be by

Joyce 45:07

Yeah, dude, I'm like, you just talk. That's interesting. I asked Tyler and I'm like, 'cause Tyler also still has some like trigger stuff too. You're being grounded. You're just being sent to your room. You didn't all that. Even with that, you're still not being taught how to regulate your emotions. You're just taught to self isolate.

Sophia 45:27

way of punishment. It's still, punishment That wasn't, again, like that guidance and that formation and the shaping.

Joyce 45:34

I think that's what's hard is like we're trying to parent and disciple our children in a way that wasn't modeled for us. Therefore, it should feel like it's fumbling and hard and confusing and new.

Sophia 45:47

and do it in a way that's long term

Joyce 45:49

Yeah.

Sophia 45:50

a long term

Joyce 45:51

Yeah.

Sophia 45:52

and that you will not see

Joyce 45:54

Yeah. Which is also so hard, like especially with being the humans that I am, and I think with current culture of like immediate gratification, I'm like, why is that so hard? Right? And I think that goes to My childhood of like obedience. That obedience was the ultimate high value as a child. You are a good child if you are obedient, but what does that even mean? Right?

Sophia 46:18

Again, such a loaded word. Obedience. Again, it's a biblical term. We are called to obey

Joyce 46:25

But Yes, we were called to obey God, but to be the level of obedience that we were called to as children.

Sophia 46:33

To never question the parents. To never talk

Joyce 46:36

We've taken again so far in that level of context, in their own translation of what it means. Right?

Sophia 46:43

Yeah. there are nuances, but I still think that obeying parents is a biblical command.

Joyce 46:49

Yes, I think so. But I think the way that I view obedience is different from the way that I think obedience was put upon me, Like, I don't mind my child questioning me. I don't mind my child saying why? Asking me why? Because he should ask why. And I should be asking myself why I'm telling him to do something. And so I sometimes appreciate when they say, why? 'cause I'm like, actually, I don't have a really good reason why. I'm just don't want you talking anymore. Like, but for him to just have complete obedience where whatever I say is The law. I think that is something I don't expect of my children. I would probably be a little bit more open to my child pushing me back and being like, do I need that? Why do I need that? Because at the end of the day, my ultimate goal is for my child to be an independent adult. Yes, he's a child now, but I still want him to ask questions and to question things and to understand why things are happening.

Sophia 47:51

But at the end of the day, there's still an expectations that he, if it's a reasonable ask and instruction, that he still obey it. For example, saying we are not gonna do social

Joyce 48:04

Yeah, but that's a safety issue.

Sophia 48:06

Right. Or don't hit your sister. I still believe that God put us as authority figure not perfect. We are not the ultimate authority figure, but there is still a safety and security in having that authority figure where it's not that we are iron bound with rules and laws, but at the same time we are the ones who are setting up that structure and boundaries. We get to decide where the

Joyce 48:29

Yeah. I think you and I are on the same page. I think it's just, uh, maybe the way that I'm saying it, but ultimately I'm just saying that I don't expect it where. I am not allowed to talk. I would say I'm fine with my kid talking back to me, is what I mean.

Sophia 48:43

Okay.

Joyce 48:44

I'm okay with banter and I'm okay with him saying like, but why? There's still boundaries and there's still explanations. I think what I'm saying is that the type of obedience I grew up with was they didn't have to explain. Parents, didn't have to explain, my brothers didn't have to explain if I said, but why do I have to do that? It was met with because I said, so do it or else.

Sophia 49:09

got

Joyce 49:10

was no logic.

Sophia 49:11

right, and if you request, and it's immediately seen as a sign of

Joyce 49:13

And that's right. And that's what I mean is like, I'm not expecting my child to have that level unless we were literally going through something that's extremely highly dangerous. And I was like, I need you to do exactly what I'm gonna say when I say it. But other than that, like most of the time we're not in those types of situations. So having that, but yes, of course I still expect there's still gonna be rules and boundaries and expectations inside this household. You can't just be some wild child and be free. 'cause children thrive with boundaries. Children thrive with structure. Children need safety and security. It's just more of, I'm not about do what they say without any question or else,

Sophia 49:58

that's helpful in you explaining that.

50:00

So we talked about, um, not just disciplining for short-term outcomes, but let's talk about our long-term view of discipline.

Joyce 50:11

yes.

Sophia 50:12

From a long-term view, I want my children to be able to, have a strong moral compass and to be able to differentiate between what is right and wrong, good and evil. this is my desire, but I don't know how much control I have of this. That they not only know what is right and wrong, but they actually love what is good. is beautiful that they pursue? What is loving and kind and what is goodness that there are people who choose what is right because they love what is right, they don't just have a moral compass. They actually delight in pursuing goodness. but that part is where I know I don't have that much control think what we as parents, the limitations we have is to constantly help them figure out what is right and wrong and to figure out what is wise and what is maybe not so wise and helping through the thought process of it, and that, I think that only comes as they get

Joyce 51:12

Yeah. I mean, I feel like that would 'cause the conversations I have with Ian probably would fall into that. I think right now for us, uh, for those of you, I don't know if we've ever touched on it, but Ian struggles with like dysregulation issues. So I think I've learned and realized like how if a kid cannot regulate their emotions, then coming to that moral compass value is very hard.

Sophia 51:37

I think emotional regulation

Joyce 51:38

yeah.

Sophia 51:39

you can make a logical

Joyce 51:40

Yeah. I'm just thinking about like current society of men. I'm like, hmm, you are not making good decisions 'cause you are triggered. But yeah, I agree. Like I think having the wisdom I think does come, but wisdom comes with guidance and wisdom comes with. Understanding right and wrong and I think Wisdom comes with experience and with also experienced voices and mentorship that comes in. And I think that is something like that you can only have with time.

Sophia 52:10

But that is what I'm learning too, that I realize that I do underestimate Tov quite a lot and we. Our expectations of our children can be sometimes too low, then there are certain expectations we hold that it's too high.

Joyce 52:23

Yeah, Tyler and I, we talk about our expectations on Kian is extremely high.

Sophia 52:27

I think that's the first

Joyce 52:28

Yeah. we probably have unrealistic expectations of Kian.

Sophia 52:32

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 52:33

I mean, it is unrealistic in the sense of like understanding just true brain development and science, but like in physiology. But yeah, I know Tyler and I, we both struggle with that a lot sometimes we forget that he's only four and a half and that what I expect of him is that of a 6-year-old and it's not fair for him. I think as part of it is just he's so verbal. He's always been so verbal, so it naturally makes you forget. Like I looked at a video of when he was two and a half and he was speaking not like a two and a half year old, Like he was speaking like a three and a half year old, older. So it's just we sometimes forget. 'cause he does have a lot more emotional depth and perception. And also like his language kind of carries him forward that we forget that he's only four and a half and like the level of structure I expect of him, the level of reaction from decision making, all that his own emotions. I'm like, oh, you're only four and a half and I'm expecting you to operate like as if you're a 7-year-old right now. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think ultimately we have. Such high hopes for our children and to the people that we want them to be, and we ultimately want them to be better than us. I think that's why there's so much pressure as being parents is like, at least for myself, I'm like, I don't want you to be anything like me. I know that there are good qualities of me, but I just want you to be better than me.

Sophia 54:06

Yeah.

Joyce 54:06

just want them to be better than you. and that comes with a lot of fear and weight. And I know that sometimes with my own, the way that I have with my like reactive like disciplining or reactionary reactions that I have to my kids, it's this anxiety of what is to come if I mess up right now. And I think sometimes. A moment carries too much weight that fear and anxiety sits so heavy in that moment. When you look at that grand scheme of things, you're like, that moment actually really didn't matter. Why did I have to flip out on them in the bathtub? Like what was it that I was panicking about that really is not gonna make a big impact in life, like one night of bad sleep is not going to have a large impact on life, but it has a pretty horrible impact on me right now. And I think sometimes that's what's hard is like the stresses of this very moment and the needs of this very moment can sometimes outweigh the long-term vision. and I think skews the level and the way that we choose to discipline in that moment because. Of where we are sitting in that moment.

Sophia 55:17

I would say that is the greatest tension I stand in right now in that, I have a good vision of how I want to parent my kids. And I really want them to love and pursue what is good and true, but then can do all the instruction I want. But the biggest impact on them is me

Joyce 55:39

Yeah.

Sophia 55:39

out goodness,

Joyce 55:40

Yeah.

Sophia 55:41

showing them practicing the fruits of the Holy Spirit in our daily life that they don't learn from just extraordinary. The, the biggest learning and habit forming and character development comes from what is normal what is ordinary to the point where it just exists a habit. It's just the way they act because that's just how it's done. and that is the tension I sit with trying to put together my theoretical idea of parenting and discipline and then living that out in practice. Because as much as I would love to in a healthy, biblical, way. Sometimes my discipline it's reactionary and I default to my upbringing or just my comforts or what, feels right at that moment versus keeping my idealistic long-term vision in mind. And so a lot, so much of discipline is also acknowledging the limitations what we can do as parents to form our children. can help guide, but can't force an outcome just

Joyce 56:59

only plant the seeds. Yeah,

Sophia 57:01

a behavior. They might have outwardly the behavior that pleases us, but that doesn't mean that there's inward

Joyce 57:08

right.

Sophia 57:09

that is the integral work that belongs only to God. And at the same time where it's very liberating to think about that, also terrifying at the same time because that means we can't control things. There is freedom in the fact that we don't have that much power, but also there isn't. Yeah, there is terror that we don't have that much power

Joyce 57:32

Yeah.

Sophia 57:33

and that is the paradox of parenthood.

Joyce 57:36

Yeah. Maybe this is like the ultimate metaphor of parenting is just that, and with discipline and raising children in general is like you're just trying to throw as many seeds as you can into their soil and just hope that the right ones are sticking and that the right ones are gonna grow and that they're gonna water and grow fruit and bear fruit like, and you don't know until years later. That's where it's really hard there's no immediate gratification. It's just, I guess we'll see. I guess. We'll see.

Sophia 58:10

Yeah. our goal is not perfection because we will never attain that our goal is daily faithfulness. When we talk about consistency, that is

Joyce 58:21

I. Yeah.

Sophia 58:22

up, daily repentance, daily dependence on the Lord, daily pointing to the Lord. because we might not be the perfect model of goodness and a disciplined person, but goddess, so constantly pointing them to the Lord and helping them know God understand God so that they love goodness and pursue goodness because God is goodness.

Joyce 58:51

There was a comment a person made on my, mom rage post that I had made on Instagram and her comment, I need to find it again and I'll send it to you, but it really stuck with me because she said, if you were a perfect parent. Your children would never know what imperfection is and that they would always strive to be a perfect child. But instead they have you as an imperfect parent showing them that you're simply human and that humans can mistakes. And even you as a parent can make mistakes, and that you're showing them what it means to also repair. And when she said that, I was like, when I read that comment, I was like, dang, that's true.

Sophia 59:40

That is

Joyce 59:40

It was, I know. I really, that comment like genuinely stuck with me because I was like, you're right. If I was so perfect, my children would never know what a mistake is. They would never see a model. They would never see me model repair, an apology.

Sophia 59:58

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 59:58

What I would do if I failed and imagine the level. Hardship it would put upon them because that's what they're always striving after as well. that was such a beautiful reminder to me where I was like, you're right. Because ultimately our imperfections are to point to Jesus and the reminder that he was perfect so that we didn't have to be, and that we were given the goodness of his grace, and his forgiveness or the forgiveness through him.

Sophia 1:00:26

our kids learn a lot from watching us make mistakes and reaction to making those mistakes. Do we react with, then we, do we respond with shame or do we respond with repentance and turning to the Lord? when they see that, they get to see the full character of God. And then they feel the safety and security too. when they fail, which they will, they'll make lots of mistakes. They imperfect human beings. Then they also feel the freedom and the security and assurance to be able to turn to the cross. that comment was pretty profound, I

Joyce 1:01:01

Yeah, it was the one comment I really stuck with out of all the other ones. But what I gathered from all those comments was we're not alone in feeling like we're all kind of bumbling through and fumbling through this thing called parenthood and motherhood. So on this note, I think it's a good point that we can end and come to a close. I think on this point we could close out and it's safe to say that we will have a part two, uh, to talk about this because there's so much to it.

Sophia 1:01:34

Yeah. So this episode has been a little bit more theoretical, but I think in the next episode, we're gonna be delving more into the practical realities of disciplining our children, how that looks like, day to day in our actual life? How does that practically, look like?

Joyce 1:01:52

I think it's, it'll be fun, to go a little bit more into other aspects of discipline.

Sophia 1:01:58

think we actually pretty aligned. It says we

Joyce 1:02:00

I.

Sophia 1:02:01

different language.

Joyce 1:02:03

Yeah, true. I think so too. I will pray. Um, we thank you so much for your goodness. God, we thank you for your word for the Bible. God, we thank you for your consistency. God, we thank you that you are a regulated God. God, we thank you that you are a cool cucumber, God who isn't reactive, that you don't punish us out of your own reactive anger. God that we know is a God that is consistent pursuing and present in all aspects of life for his children and for us. And I just pray for each of the Elmas listening, um, and for Sophia and I that we will be reminded of who you are and that we would strive every day to be a little bit closer to who you are, God, which is to be a mother, an Amah who is present, an Amah, who is able to recognize right from wrong, who is able to repair and is an Amah who pursues her children. Um, even in times where it feels hard, Lord. And that we look to you for the wisdom that we need for, we know that we are carving new paths in our own parenting journeys and as well as that for our own children, Lord. Um, we. Just also lift up any guilt and shame and hardship that anybody may be experiencing. I know that in my own self I carry so much of that and I just pray that we would just give that to you Lord, to remember that guilt and shame is not something that comes for you, um, from you, but rather that it comes from sin and comes from Satan and that Lord, that you give us hope and you give us faith and that you give us renewal and, um, hope every day, Lord. In your name we pray. Yeah.

1:03:51

Thank you so much for listening. If you've been liking our episodes, please follow, like, subscribe, or leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. We'd love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and feedback. You can find us on Instagram at the old Oma Club, or reach out to us at the old Oma club@gmail.com. You gotta give it. Big thank you to Kevin Lar for our music. Until next time, amaz, may the Lord bless you and keep you sane, hydrated, and fulfilled the way only he can.