Season 2, Ep 5: How Then Do We Discipline? (Part II)

In Part II of our discipline series, we move from theory into real life: How then do we discipline our kids?

What actually happens in the moment—when your child is melting down in a grocery store, when you’re overstimulated and drained, or when your own fears and assumptions take over?

In this episode, we wrestle with:

• The two major “camps” in parenting (sin-focused vs. connection-focused)
• How we read our children's behavior impacts our discipline methods
• How fear and anxiety shape the way we discipline 
• The difference between willful disobedience and a tired, dysregulated child 
• Discouragement in discipline methods that seem to see little fruit
• The challenge of staying calm and consistent

This is a conversation about the real, messy moments: public meltdowns, overreactions, repair, and the slow process of learning to parent rather than to react.

We want to get to know our Ummas! You can find Sophia and Joyce: 

Instagram: @theoldummaclub

Email: theoldummaclub@gmail.com

Music credits:
"Life of Riley" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Transcript

0:02

Hey Amaz, welcome to the Old Alma Club. I'm Joyce. And I'm Sophia. We are two friends in Los Angeles who had so many great coffee chats about our love for Jesus being Korean in biracial marriages and having kids mid-career, mid thirties. So we decided to turn it into a podcast. So grab a cup of coffee and join our conversations and by aching backs, motherhood, marriage, Jesus, and everything in between. You ready? Hannah? Two. Set. Set. Let's go. Let's go.

Joyce 0:36

Hey, amaz, we are on part two of our discipline and discipleship kind of discussions. Um, today being more specific on how we are choosing to discipline or correct or boundary setting or however word verbiage you'd like to use, but essentially talking about specifically with each of our children and what we're kind of working through with just guiding them into who the adults and humans that they are.

Sophia 1:07

Yeah, part one was more it was conceptual, it's theoretical. It was talking about our understanding of the word discipline, but then also how we interpret it. and then part two is the nitty gries. It's the vulnerable part. It is about how then do we discipline our kids? How then do we bring our ideas parenting into real life?

Joyce 1:31

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 1:33

And discipline is hard. I think It's probably the hardest thing about parenthood for me, besides for disciplining myself in the midst of parenthood. Second, is disciplining kids.

Joyce 1:44

Yeah. I mean, it's the most triggering.

Sophia 1:48

Exactly.

Joyce 1:49

the most triggering, and I've been thinking about that a lot especially with our conversations, with part one, I just never really, I guess, got down to the theory level of why I believe the way I think and like all that stuff. And so I think it's been bringing up a little bit more self-reflection throughout the day. Part of it is also, we've talked about our mom rage and just the things that we've been working through and things that we've been trying to improve.

Sophia 2:16

Right.

Joyce 2:16

And I've just realized a lot of times the points of where I'm trying to correct my child is where I get the most triggered or loss of my own self-control. And then in that moment my moment of perhaps possible connection with my child is disrupted because I am just a raging ball of fire and I'm like. Oh, let me bring this back, bring this back, and then I have to later on, apologize and bring it back into full circle in a much more calm manner where it's not so triggered and angry.

Sophia 2:53

Yes, I completely relate. I mean, we talked about this in the last episode about how we need to be disciplined in order to discipline our children well, and I'm just the first to say that I'm not a very disciplined person when it comes to self-control. Patience, gentleness, kindness, all the things that I hold as ideals in how I want to raise and parent my kids. those things are still, I don't know, I'm still at very much of a elementary school level, so

Joyce 3:26

Yeah.

Sophia 3:27

things outta my kids that I need to work on myself. And so we are disciplining ourselves while we are disciplining our kids, and it's like a full mental load.

Joyce 3:38

Yeah, I mean I think, I had, oh, I would say that you had some level of discipline and everything, especially for being able to graduate university, having a job, and actually being able to hold a job. And I think we all have certain level of discipline and self-control and regulation in that manner. But I think once you throw kids in, like it's different. It's a much deeper level. And you're also stressed out.

Sophia 4:06

I think it's a different muscle. Like I feel like I'm very disciplined in certain things and that there are certain things where I'm very undisciplined because that hasn't been a,

Joyce 4:14

Necessary. Yeah.

Sophia 4:16

yes, it hasn't really been essential in my life to work on, so that part of my discipline muscles have atrophied and it just needs a little bit more target workout, need more tar target workout sessions.

Joyce 4:33

Yeah, I mean part of it is also like there's the added level stress or pressure I think of your child is watching you at all times, and so things when you're without a kid, and especially when you're single, like you do what you wanna do and it affects no one but you, right? But then once you have eyes that stare at you, I'm like, should I do this right now? As I'm staring at two pairs of eyes, technically three, and they're all staring at you, I'm like, maybe this is a habit I need to change, or maybe this approach is not the most effective and loving approach because this is not something I want my child to absorb. And perhaps internalize and say, this is the narrative that we should be moving through.

Sophia 5:17

Yeah,

Joyce 5:17

Ian called me out so hard today 'cause I had, I had a pair of jeans that I had got ordered, and it's still in his plastic wrapping, but I put it on like one of our stairs, which is where we kind of put our things onto the side and he starts opening it and I told him, I was like, Ian, that's my package. Don't open it. He's like, well, it doesn't have a name on it. He's like, yes, but it is my pair of pants. And he's like, well, how do you know? I'm like, because it has, those are my jeans. I bought them. And he's like,

Sophia 5:42

the SA on this kid.

Joyce 5:43

I know. But he's like, well, you shouldn't leave it on the floor because if you leave it on the floor it's trash. Which is exactly what I say to him when he leaves his schnitzel stuff all over the floor. I'm like, don't treat your things like trash. Don't leave it on the floor or else it's trash. I'm gonna throw it away. You have the audacity to throw back at me. And he's like, well, you shouldn't leave your stuff on the floor or else it's trash. Emma and I. Yes, but it wasn't on the floor. It was on the stairs. He was like, I like ah, loophole. But again, but it's a reminder of like how they truly do absorb everything and they are also watching and evaluating and comparing. They're taking notes and they'll call you out so hard when they're like, our notes are not aligned.

Sophia 6:34

Yeah. They reflect everything back.

Joyce 6:36

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 6:37

So they are our mirrors.

Joyce 6:39

Yeah.

Sophia 6:40

just like staring at me, reflecting

Joyce 6:42

I know.

Sophia 6:43

to me. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me that I need deep sanctification.

Joyce 6:48

know. And I think that's what disciplining is so hard too. 'cause there's this added layer and pressure of How I discipline my child is going to have an Impact on how they're going to discipline their future children. And I'm like, do I want my kids to be like this to their kids, to my grandchildren, to their children, if they choose to have kids, right.

Sophia 7:08

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. All it is to say is that this episode is not a how to episode.

Joyce 7:18

No,

Sophia 7:18

an advice episode. It is just us sharing

Joyce 7:23

What we're doing, yeah.

Sophia 7:25

what we are doing and also what we are doing wrong.

Joyce 7:28

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 7:29

And what we are still working on, we do have a goal and vision in mind. let's just talk about, maybe just let's just get straight into it. What would you say you are working on right now in terms of discipline with your kids? Like first and foremost, the number one thing that comes to your mind right now.

Joyce 7:48

The first thing that comes to my mind is, uh, managing my own anxiety and fears, because that

Sophia 7:54

disciplining your kids.

Joyce 7:55

I know, but that impacts how I end up disciplining them because part of it is I end up projecting so much on my own anxiety and fears onto them that I'm disciplined them for things that are not relevant or necessary. But for Kian particularly, I think what has been hard is because of his history with food allergies and his eczema history. Tyler and I naturally, and I myself, excluding Tyler like myself, I run naturally very anxious around Kian, because that's just kind of how I've become wired. and I think over the years, over this past year, I've been able to release that a little bit more as things have been improving. And so with Kian, part of it is his anxiousness. and I know that because I run anxious and because of the history of how we've reacted to him, he also runs anxious and it's also natural, a little bit more natural as like firstborn sons to be anxious types.

Sophia 8:55

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 8:56

but with Kian particularly, it's been working on his. Dysregulation and how to work through that and get him to be grounded through that. And also the other aspect is how he interacts with his brother. The particular thing that he's been really doing lately has been, he like eggs, tig on in a negative way. And so like, we'll say, Ty, don't do that. And then Keon will go, yeah, Ty, do it, do it more. And then Tyler and I are just like,

Sophia 9:30

Yeah.

Joyce 9:32

I'm like, why are you doing, oh, like, and it's like the, he's in that classic boundary pushing era, right? So he's like, oh, you guys said no, but I wanna push the boundary and see how far

Sophia 9:44

us.

Joyce 9:45

let's see where we go with this. And he's testing the boundary. And we tell him every time you are the one who's going to get in trouble. Like, it's not your brother, it is you. And so that has really been hard. I think right now with Kian, we've been working on boundary pushing and boundary setting and testing those waters. But also his dysregulation has made it tricky. 'cause if he's dysregulated, we have to try to get him grounded before we can even move forward with anything. and we've been fighting him on that. 'cause we've been accidentally, I say we, I know Tyler does it too. But then for me personally, I've been accidentally like his regulation setting tools. We've been using it almost like as a punishment. And so now he doesn't want to do it. And I also get it because his dysregulation comes primarily. Excited, happy, silly. And it just goes too far on that spectrum. And it's not typically always anger. His is more towards like he's over the top silly, over the top happy, over the top, excited, and he doesn't know how to handle that. And he gets super dysregulated and it's like days. and of course, yeah, if you're like super excited and happy about something, it's gonna feel like punishment If we're saying Hey, you need to go to your corner and like, let's calm that down and get your body to calm down. and so that's been the thing that we've really been working on. At least with Kian. With Tyke, it's been hard because his language is not as developed. So when we talk with him or try to work with him, it's been hard but Tyke gets understanding of emotions. But his hardest thing that we've been working through for him has really just. Not hitting and not grabbing and he just hits. and he gets crazy. Like his energy is just maybe his classic second child energy, but like he's just wild. Like he really is. He's so sweet, but also so crazy. And Owen gets no discipline 'cause he's only five months old.

Sophia 11:39

Yeah. There's no, no. Yeah,

Joyce 11:43

Yeah.

Sophia 11:44

saying I'm disciplining my five

Joyce 11:46

Yeah. I'm putting boundary setting on, uh, my,

Sophia 11:49

I'm,

Joyce 11:49

month old. I'm teaching him that. This is when the breastfeeding

Sophia 11:53

yes.

Joyce 11:55

I'm correcting him on his feeding schedule and his napping schedule. Okay.

Sophia 11:58

not at all. Close to that yet.

Joyce 12:00

No. But yeah, I would say that's kind of where we're at with Kian is like his dysregulation and boundary setting and boundary pushing. Ty gets more, just his hitting just, he's just crazy. He's just crazy. about you?

Sophia 12:14

I mean, with uri, I mean, she's not even two yet. She is currently 20 months, but I'm starting to see behaviors where I'm like, oh, I need to work on this. so one is also hitting. she started to hit, she hits me, she scratches me. She pulls my hair, she grabs my glasses. when she's happy or when she's completely dysregulated and she's in the throws of tantrums. And then she also just hits because. decides that to is annoying.

Joyce 12:44

It's her only form of communication.

Sophia 12:47

Yeah.

Joyce 12:47

It's effective,

Sophia 12:48

and, and she doesn't know how to express, Hey, you are annoying. Stop

Joyce 12:52

right?

Sophia 12:52

where she's at developmentally yet. So, you know, if the most natural thing is to just take a palm, raise it up, and then puck,

Joyce 13:00

It works quick, like it stops the exact thing that she thinks is annoying. I understand.

Sophia 13:05

then it escalates the

Joyce 13:07

Yes.

Sophia 13:08

tove will, like,

Joyce 13:09

Yep.

Sophia 13:10

will either cry or tattle or he will hit back then it becomes like a whole where it might be just be that to snatch something away from her, which is very often. and then she goes saying, ah, and then just like slaps him. So that's something that's like very, I mean. no, there's no consequences. Nothing like that at her age.

Joyce 13:31

Right.

Sophia 13:32

it's firmness and consistency telling her no. I think right now what we are working on is telling her no, so that she gets used to no.

Joyce 13:41

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 13:41

so like if she wants to grab another snack or if she's dumping everything out from the drawer, which she does multiple times a day, like today, she took all of toe's clothes out of the drawer and just made a whole mountain after I just folded them. but then with her, I don't even get mad. I'm just like, oh, I just get tired. But I'm just like, no. So it's just constantly getting her used and familiar to boundaries and certain things. There's just, just repeatedly telling her, no, no, no. It doesn't mean that she'll not do it, it's just the familiarity of like, oh, this is where the boundaries are. Okay. I think it'll take a while for her to really understand it, but she will get there. And that's, her stage right now. And no basic politeness teaching her to say thank you. Teaching her not to demand things, but like ask in a nice way. um, it's, it's honestly, it's just very cute. it's kind of a cute and adorable, stage right now At this stage, you really just cannot Do anything more than that

Joyce 14:40

Yeah.

Sophia 14:41

though is a different story. I mean, he turns four in less than two weeks, he's basically a 4-year-old. And the thing that we have been working on him since he was two, we are still working on, and it is to be gentle and kind with his sister. day Uri was born. We taught him gentle and kind. I think at that time, gentle and kind was a new terminology for him. So I, demonstrated it to me. He, I was like, I would kick things and I'll punch things and say, is this gentle in kind? No. And he just got a kick out of it. He thought it was so funny and he would just pinch like, pillows and punch pillows and like, is this gentle and kind? No. And then I would show him, demonstrate like, this is gentle and

Joyce 15:25

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 15:25

hug the baby. give her a little kiss, like just gentle heads, like I would demonstrate it for him, So he, at this point, he understands fully what gentle and kind means, but. He still has a lot of trouble being gentle and kind for various reasons. either he's just got too much energy, right? he likes to play rough. That's his way of playing. He's aggressive. He loves to tackle her, climb on her, crush her, um, every day. The, the number of times I tell him, don't crush her. Don't crush her. It's like, don't

Joyce 16:01

As the youngest of two older brothers, it never went away.

Sophia 16:06

of it's just like, this is just his,

Joyce 16:08

It's just boy,

Sophia 16:10

coming

Joyce 16:10

brother.

Sophia 16:11

he still doesn't completely understand his own strength. and he knows that she's smaller than her, but he forgets. or he's just dysregulated. So he's like running around the house and he's just runs into her, not on purpose, but she gets hurt, And then there's also times when he will kick her, hit her, willfully. let me just give you an example. This happened, um, a few months ago, and this is a classic case where I really started thinking more about, man, I really need to be able to differentiate how to approach discipline in different scenarios. this is what happened. it was like a cracker that Uri wanted, so I gave her a cracker and then tove grabbed it from her hand, and then I said, no, give it back to her. It's hers. I gave it to her. So he ran around the house with a cracker and I said, no, come back, give it back to your sister. And then he finally comes. And guess what he did? drops it on the floor. He crushes it with his foot so that if he can't get it, she can't get it. And I will tell you exactly how I responded. I said, job, and then I did something even worse. I said, I don't like you

Joyce 17:31

Hmm.

Sophia 17:31

and let me explain. I'm not, this is not prescriptive and telling you to do this. Obviously I'm just telling you what I did wrong. But in that moment, because at, at that time, we weren't rush to go out. I think I need to drop him off at school or something. But I was already

Joyce 17:48

It was like time crunch. So you're already stressed out.

Sophia 17:51

I'm really stressed out. I just remember being overstimulated and tired and then Tov, did something that I haven't seen. rare for me to see that kind of meanness.

Joyce 18:05

But he was like spiteful almost.

Sophia 18:08

it spiteful and I was just disgusted with that behavior. And there was like righteousness coming up, like, this is injustice. How, and Udi's crying. This poor girl, I was just like, this victim. She did nothing. She was holding her cracker and she was just about it when her brothers snatched that and then he crushed it on his food. And it's just like the step by step, not just willful disobedience, but the, the cruelty.

Joyce 18:35

intentional hurtfulness. That's where you're just like, oh, I like, I get it completely. That's like where I get triggered and I'm like,

Sophia 18:44

but then my, my words, because I was just like so angry

Joyce 18:48

yeah,

Sophia 18:49

I was so shocked.

Joyce 18:50

yeah,

Sophia 18:51

was like, but you are a good boy.

Joyce 18:53

yeah.

Sophia 18:53

Like your name literally means good. and he is a good sweet

Joyce 18:58

Yeah.

Sophia 18:59

I, the first time I saw that kind of just spitefulness, I was shocked. I was so angry. I was disgusted. My moral sense was just surging. and I hated that behavior, but I said, I don't like you. I immediately saw his eyes just widened because he's never heard that from me before. And he just ran away crying

Joyce 19:24

Yeah.

Sophia 19:25

then, and I was like, okay. This is where my struggle with discipline is because like in real time You have to discern how to react and then you have to like regulate yourself. And then also there was this part of me that was like, this is sin and it is, that was sinful behavior. It wasn't just him being playing rough or just him being dysregulated or him needing connection or something like that. It was like actual, the first time I saw a classic of sinful behavior and my reaction was to immediately be punitive. Be cruel back in a way. but then there was also this righteous sense of anger. It was right for me to be angry at that because that was really not right behavior, it was not godly and it was not gentle and kind.

Joyce 20:17

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 20:18

but then my reaction was definitely not thought out. I just reacted and then it just slipped outta my mouth. The wording was wrong and I very much hurt my child.

Joyce 20:29

Yeah, I get that.

Sophia 20:30

eventually, I needed to like, like breathe for a moment, but the moment those words came out, I knew I had done wrong

Joyce 20:38

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 20:39

like, oh shoot, I should not have said that. I worded it wrong. I was really feeling is that I don't like how you behave, but you know how it's just sometimes your tongues just get tied and use this. All you are is just angry. And so angry words come out and angry words hurt people. and later on I really reflected on it. I came to him, I hugged him I just had to have a little bit more self-control just have a calm moment to like breathe in and out. and I hugged him and I said, I'm sorry, like, I love you. but what you did was wrong. and then I asked him like, do I still love you if you, if you did wrong? He's like, no. And I'm like, no, I do love you when you're not gentle and kind. I love you.

Joyce 21:23

Yeah.

Sophia 21:23

and then we had to go to school. But it was good because it was just kept simple.

Joyce 21:27

Right.

Sophia 21:27

And it was just more about reconnecting with him. eventually I remember, I think it was that night I was, I was thinking about this and replaying in my head okay, I need to address this. and we need to talk a little bit more about it so that he really understands that what he did was wrong, but also that how I reacted was wrong. And there needs to be some sort of a reparation and restorative, like, we need to redeem this. So during that time talked to again about like how, what happened and I told him was that gentle and kind? He's like, no. And I said, who's gentle and kind? And he said, Jesus. And then he said, Jesus is gentle and kind. we be gentle and kind like Jesus because Jesus is perfect.

Joyce 22:13

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 22:13

and then I said We need to repair things with uri. so he thought of an apology. he plucked some wild flowers

Joyce 22:20

That's so cute.

Sophia 22:21

and he's like, now every time he sees wild flowers, he's like, I'm gonna pick it as an apology for Uri. And like, you didn't do anything wrong, but okay. That would be a gift, not an

Joyce 22:31

Yeah.

Sophia 22:31

but he got the idea.

Joyce 22:33

Yeah.

Sophia 22:34

But that raises an interesting question for me because we talk about disciplining and, and I think both of us consume a lot of content online, like parenting advice, content online, whether that's good or bad. I get a lot of value outta some of them and then some, I'm like, Hmm. what we see on social media, especially Instagram is such a shortened version, like such a condensed version of something. of, usually it's a concept that's way more nuanced. Like even just the term gentle parenting. There's so many misunderstandings about what that means.

Joyce 23:08

Yeah.

Sophia 23:08

There are some people who sees it as permissive parenting, and then some people who sees it as just another word for authoritative parenting, which is the golden standard. but I've read a bunch of parenting books, mostly Christian and I follow a lot of Christian therapists as well. And I kind of see like these two main camp systems on parenting. one camp where it's like the more reformed group where they focus a lot on the sin nature of children. And I just read this book called Parenting and there's a, there's a passage in there where it says, your children's biggest problem is not that they're immature, it's that they're sinners. So that's where it focuses on children are born with a sin nature and their behaviors reflects their sinful nature. And that discipline needs to address the sin and call for repentance. So that's where one camp I see kind of focus on. And then the other camp I see mostly, Christian therapists they focus very much on, no, if the children are acting out, it's because they need connection. There's a need that's not being met or, there's a skill that has not been taught or reinforced, but children are immature and we need to look at the science of, Child development so this other side, your focus on discipline will be co-regulation, and then how do you teach the right skills at the moment and then connecting with the child.

Joyce 24:36

right? Right.

Sophia 24:37

And I'm sure there are a lot more nuances to this, but this seems to be the two main camps that I observed. I think in the moment, how we view the behavior of the child affects how we discipline at that time. if we see it as sin. Then we are gonna react in a different way where if we see it as, oh no, this behavior is this, this kid is just hungry,

Joyce 25:02

Yeah.

Sophia 25:03

kid is, you know, dysregulated and just needs a hug or something.

Joyce 25:07

yeah.

Sophia 25:07

I would say, I think I am very much influenced by the more, the sinful part. that's my ideological background, And so I remember when, um, Woody was first born and to, was showing signs of jealousy. He wasn't hitting her or anything like that, but he was just showing signs of jealousy. And my mother said, oh, that's because, you know, he's the Adam now he's the descendant of Adam and he's a sinner. when I first heard that, I was just like, that doesn't feel right to me. because for him he he had all the attention and suddenly all of that attention is divided.

Joyce 25:41

Right. It's valid what he's feeling.

Sophia 25:43

it's completely valid. And he's a child. He doesn't understand what's happening. And so for me, I was like, I don't think that is sin. I think that's him trying to understand and it takes parenting to help him through that. And it can lead to

Joyce 25:58

Right.

Sophia 25:58

it can lead to jealousy and, and, and being aggressive with your sister. But I think if you immediately just labor that as sin, then you, you're not even giving him space to work out and process his emotions because that was a tough time for him. It was a tough transition for him. Right. And I sometimes attend this Korean church Um, they have a really good children's program, but I've been feeling a little mm, hesitant about it right now because they talk a lot about the devil.

Joyce 26:31

Mm.

Sophia 26:32

Sin. And these are geared towards kids under five. for example, like they would talk about, um, Genesis chapter three. and they would talk about, you know, the Satan entering the snake and deceiving, Eve. they would say, see, you're not paying attention during worship. Satan's deceiving. You don't let Satan deceive you.

Joyce 26:52

Oh,

Sophia 26:52

And I felt,

Joyce 26:54

it's a little too young. Yeah.

Sophia 26:55

you know, my kids are two and three. No, not even two, like one and three. I don't think it's developmentally appropriate for them to sit still for 30 minutes listening to a sermon.

Joyce 27:06

They can barely sit still, like through a five minute book.

Sophia 27:09

right. But see, this is where There's a difference where it's like, okay, I don't think that's sin. I think that's stem being kids, and I really don't want to label those kind of behaviors as sinful.

Joyce 27:22

right.

Sophia 27:23

then it just too broadens too much the idea of sin and broadening it, making even more ambiguous for kids.

Joyce 27:31

It also starts to instill the work-based value of faith, right? I think it's also very Korean. Like, I think it like

Sophia 27:41

current thing

Joyce 27:42

it's very misunderstanding for a child to be like, oh, well, every time I do something that's maybe disobedient or maybe it goes against to what your desires are, then that's Satan and that's sin. And that's very confusing. And also a little fearmongering, unintentionally. But I think it just, like, it starts to misguide the roots and the development of faith and understanding of sin, which is still kind of a weird concept, For a kid to understand sin, I think, at this early age.

Sophia 28:12

yeah. it's cultural. Sometimes we put cultural values spiritual language and your cultural understanding of disobedience and good behavior, and then labeling that as if you don't meet our cultural standards of obedience and good behavior, then that is sin.

Joyce 28:30

Right, right. Yeah.

Sophia 28:33

that's something that I really wanna be careful with because that is my background. can see myself, in, in the real time moment when I'm just reacting, I can see that I can tend to fall back to that sin mentality.

Joyce 28:48

Yeah.

Sophia 28:49

I don't think that's wrong either. I personally like, I do think that children are born sinners and their hearts lead them towards disoriented things that are not good. And they are also developing human beings who needs to be taught skills to how to regulate their emotions. And their brain is still developing. For them to be able to even obey on the first time, like that's a big thing I hear in some circles. Like, you have to teach a to obey the first time with a joyful heart. that's another phrase that I've heard

Joyce 29:27

Oh, the joyful heart phrase. It like bothers me. I've heard that growing up too, and I'm like, but that's not human. But anyways, that's fine. It's not human and that's not okay. That's fine, but yes.

Sophia 29:38

my reaction has been like, yes, that sounds good,

Joyce 29:41

Oh, I'm like, Nope.

Sophia 29:44

because that is ideally what I would love from my kids. Hey, 12, go clean up. Yes, mom, yay. I would love to clean up my room. obviously that is my preferred reaction. half the time he literally does not even hear me.

Joyce 30:01

Yeah,

Sophia 30:02

does not enter

Joyce 30:03

yeah,

Sophia 30:04

center of his brain. And so I have to differentiate between, oh, is this like a willful disobedience or he just not hear me because I'm telling him to do something across the room,

Joyce 30:14

yeah.

Sophia 30:15

really focused on playing right now.

Joyce 30:18

I mean, it kind of goes back to what I said at the very beginning when you're like, what have you been working on? I'm like, yeah, my anxiety and fear cause it impacts me to be able to discipline or even to even differentiate my kids' needs at that moment. 'cause like for me, it's like, I don't think of it maybe as sin, but I think I just get this injustice ness or my mind flashes forward like 20 years and it flashes forward to some crazy version that's not gonna be him, Lord. But it flashes where I'm like, if I don't correct this now, it's gonna be, you know, I was like, how dare he? 'cause now this is clearly a sign that he's gonna become this kind of human being and I'm like, oh, we need to correct. And it creates a fear a clear example of where my own anxiety, this just goes off the rails is like today. We were out, um, keen because certain medications, he has to get injections every four weeks. So today was shot day. But he had, we have a routine. He knows that like he gets his shot, he gets a treat, and then we'll get boba afterwards. cause that's like a really high value treat for him, right? So it

Sophia 31:22

Yeah.

Joyce 31:23

and so it, it helps him push through the pain of the injection. so we went to go get Boba and Okay, the boundary setting, right? Like I told them, don't play with the trash can. And then Ian thinks it's funny and Tyke follows Big Brother, right? And so I'm not even mad at Tyke 'cause it's like he's just doing what his brother is doing and that's where it's also been really hard.

Sophia 31:49

Yeah.

Joyce 31:51

Or like parenting, 'cause they both are wrong. But also Ty wasn't gonna do it, but because Ian did it, now he's doing it. But Ian's like, oh, he, he, he, he, I'm gonna play with the trash can. my own anxiety of like, that's disgusting. You're gonna touch poop. This is an urban trash can. Lord knows how many homeless people have peed in it. Like my mind just went crazy off and I flipped out and I'm like, stop grabbing the trash. And then, but I'm trying to be calm about it because I'm in public, so I'm like,

Sophia 32:25

Yeah.

Joyce 32:26

is instead it gets internalized and I just stomp over and I'm grabbing both of my boys by the arms, like aggressively. And I'm like, that's all the stroller, like yelling at them and like trying to get to the car. once I eventually calmed down and I was able to take a few breaths and I was like. That was an unnecessary reaction to the kids just having it's boundary pushing and it was inappropriate. And it's also gross and unhealthy in many ways. It's just a safety issue, especially urban Los Angeles trash cans. Gross. but like my own anxiety of like, what could potentially come from this, it just went off and it dictated how I chose to respond in that moment, and then I like come back. But,

Sophia 33:11

I can relate late.

Joyce 33:12

yeah, it's just, and then afterwards I like got in the car and and also I'm stressed out. 'cause you know, we all know the stress of packing children into a car in a public parking garage, right? Elevators like packing the stroller, getting them all in. I have three kids by myself. They're all running in the freaking dirt.

Sophia 33:35

crazy drivers who like

Joyce 33:36

they're so crazy and they whip the curves so hard and they're this,

Sophia 33:41

a high

Joyce 33:42

yeah.

Sophia 33:43

situation. It's like walking into combat.

Joyce 33:45

Yeah. especially at this parking lot, there's so many blind spots. People whip around super fast. I've almost been hit as a car like multiple times to this party, so I'm already stressed out, so I'm like, just trigger happy yelling at, I was like, I throw your boba away. That's what I said. that is my discipline in my unhinged moment. and then I'm like, wait a minute. I don't wanna throw Boba away. I want Boba. And I was like,

Sophia 34:08

you paid for this?

Joyce 34:09

yeah. I was like, this is $26. I'm not throwing away $26. And so I had to like re back, like, like back it up.

Sophia 34:16

should have said, I'm gonna drink all of this by myself.

Joyce 34:19

that's, that's, I was like, oh my gosh. So finally I get them all in the car and I'm like, alright. And I started driving 'cause I'm like, I'm just gonna get driving, driving, driving, driving. And finally when we get to a stop sign where I finally get home and I'm calm ish, I finally turned around and I'm like, Hey, I'm sorry for losing it on you and I need you to understand trash cans are dirty. They are not an appropriate thing to be playing with. And it's really unhealthy. It's like a gross thing. do you play it with your trash at home? And he's like, no. I'm like, don't play with the trash cans elsewhere. They're even more gross. At least home. We know what's inside.

Sophia 35:05

My children play with the trash can. loves digging through trash. and then she would lick her fingers

Joyce 35:11

I know the things that kids touch and then they, when they lick their fingers, I'm like, uh, but I also, I think that aspect of sinfulness I think is interesting for me. 'cause Like I understand the point of view and the perspective. I guess I just think of it as like, we're all sinful and we aren't born with understanding the concept of right or wrong. It's something that's taught and it falls on the parent to teach them this is right, this is wrong. This is just, this is not just, this is kind, this is not kind because we're all born as sinners and it's the hard role and duty of the parent to kind of help guide and form what that is. but I think for me, like growing up in like very strict Christian points of view, it's very confusing. 'cause sometimes I felt that that aspect of sin was pushed so hard that there was no grace also taught simultaneously with it for me personally growing up. And so it was really like God wants a good child who never disagrees and obedient in all these things. But I've been thinking about leading up to this conversation, like knowing what today's podcast was. I was like, okay, like ultimately what type of disciplining do I really want?

Sophia 36:32

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 36:33

And I was like, who's my ultimate discipline? And it's God, right? And so I'm like, what type of relationship do I have with God? And God wants me in all facets of my personality,

Sophia 36:44

I think that's where I struggle too, because I still struggle with like, when I do something wrong and I know that it's wrong, I still feel a lot of shame and I want, I feel like God will punish me for it.

Joyce 36:57

Mm. I see.

Sophia 36:59

I

Joyce 37:00

Yeah.

Sophia 37:00

fight with what I believe versus what my instinctive thoughts are,

Joyce 37:06

I see.

Sophia 37:06

I'm constantly battling that, I know God, but also there's so much baggage behind that. I'm still unloading that baggage from my true understanding of God, so

Joyce 37:20

Yeah.

Sophia 37:21

a fact. My parenting too.

Joyce 37:23

Yeah, I get that. I didn't really develop a very strong understanding and perception of God until I was in college because I didn't really have a true parent figure.

Sophia 37:33

Mm.

Joyce 37:34

it was my brothers and they don't have the strong impact, right? So I didn't have a dad for all of my memories. I have very few memories of my dad itself, but I don't remember him ever really parenting me, really.

Sophia 37:46

Mm-hmm.

Joyce 37:47

and even my brother will attest to that. dad was gone all the time. and my mom, I don't have very many memories. I only have three memories and they're all unhinged. by the time I was seven, which is where a lot of your long-term memory starts to kick in. She was working full time, she was working like 80, 70, 60 hours a week. She was gone.

Sophia 38:06

Yeah.

Joyce 38:07

So it was just my brothers, and my, they're like the only figures I have so I didn't really have a context of a parental love disciplining me.

Sophia 38:18

Got it.

Joyce 38:19

I think for me, I kind of veer on when I like, think about God and I think about how he and I are in our relationship, there isn't a lot of shame. I think it was more of, I just wanted to understand God as a father. 'cause that has been my greatest struggle. that's where mine is, where it is. Like, I don't even have an understanding of God Father. And that has always been my working point of view of like, who are you as a father in my life? and maybe that's why I've been thankful and being able to have such a, like, vivid and like hearing voice relationship with him. 'cause I can hear him speak and I can feel him in my life where He's like, this is what a father would feel like in this moment for you. And that's what it should feel like. cause I didn't really have that at all. I had just an am absent father. So I remember when I became a Christian more of like an actual, like reading the Bible and living into it. People would talk about dads and I was like, I don't know what that means. And people will talk about God the father. And I was like, what's that concept? So you know, we're coming from different points of view of like, I had like a complete absent understanding. And so my mind has been a little bit of a different point of view. And I think that's why when it comes to like, when I'm thinking about like, how does God discipline me, it's very patient and it's very, very welcoming if we go to our episode one where I was like, yeah, I don't mind if my kid. collides with me. And that's very much my relationship with God, where I'd be like, I'll sit down and I'm like, these are all my gripes. This is what I'm mad about. Why are you not doing this? I'm like, da. And then God's just like, okay, And he's like, are you done? And I'm like, no, I have four more days of griping and then I'll be done. So I think that's how I view it. I'm like, well, if God disciplines me with such patience and such graciousness and such long suffering, how can I show that to my child? And I'm like, uh, Jesus. That's how I'm like, 'cause I have no patience. I have some level of grace. Um, my long suffering is very short. I was like, kindness is sometimes there, gentleness is not, is not there at all in any way possible. All.

Sophia 40:40

I feel like we repeat this so much, but yeah. So much of parenting is knowing and understanding and developing that relationship with God so that you reflect that relationship with your children. that's why I say constant journey. We don't, fully know and understand and experience God. it's a lifelong process.

Joyce 40:59

Lifelong process. Parenting is a lifelong process, and I think, we want to do our best, and so we're trying our best to do everything and we can these early stages. And also just us, like as humans, for me, I just wanna get there already. Like, let me just be the parent I wanna be. And I feel God's always constantly just being like, nope, you're never, no, it's, you are still gonna be figuring out when they're 30. And I'm like, oh. Should we be like, can't we be fully evolved by the time they're 10? Like, can't we just be final products of parenting and hit our, grand final product? And it's like, no, it's not. And it's a constant evolution. And like, I think it's also a gift in knowing that it's a constant process and that there's constant chances and opportunities for us to also repair with our kids.

Sophia 41:52

Yeah. But it also means that we would never produce this fully formed human beings,

Joyce 41:58

no.

Sophia 41:59

that is not even our job.

Joyce 42:00

No.

Sophia 42:01

are meant to walk with them for a period of their life.

Joyce 42:04

Right.

Sophia 42:05

them, and even then they will continue walking with God to constantly evolve just like we are right now. I feel you too, about feeling impatient with myself, but then I, when I look back, like even, even though I say I still sometimes struggle with shame and thinking of God as a punitive God when I look back, like my relationship with God has really grown over the years, through hardship, through joy, through just time, through experience him and experiencing him in realistic, practical ways. and that's something I think about too. Like I do get very discouraged With disciplining my children, not so much uri, but because she's still young. But with 12, I mean, as I mentioned, it's two years in and we are still working on gentle and kind. He's still not perfectly gentle and kind, and then there are moments where I'm like, oh my God. Like will, you never learn. I have been teaching you repeating this, like this one thing for I feel like forever and like, when will you get it? And then I feel discouraged and then I feel like, ugh. And that, and that affects my parenting too because there are moments when I'm already tense even before he does a behavior I don't like because I'm just anticipating him misbehaving that. It just creates a stressful environment and so much negative

Joyce 43:36

Yeah, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

Sophia 43:38

exactly. But I realized that, okay, instead of viewing it this moment, a step back. I wanna look, in the last two years, like he has grown, he still makes mistakes because I still make mistakes. Like I am adult and I still have 10 Trumps. how much more? A three and a half year old, or almost 4-year-old. he really does know, gentle and kind. I've noticed that. Okay. He actually does apologize self, voluntarily, without me him to. Because he's learned the importance and the value of reparation, Like when he is rough with and she falls and she cries and he will say, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. and then he will try to repair with her by giving her a hug or something. Sometimes she doesn't wanna be touched, but he attempts.

Joyce 44:34

Yeah.

Sophia 44:34

another classic example is like, one of the things that I have been working on him is like when we go grocery shopping you know, grocery shopping with kids can be hazardous

Joyce 44:45

yeah.

Sophia 44:45

they see a lot of shiny objects that they want and then it becomes a tantrum and a meltdown and, toasts thing, especially when we go to Trader Joe's. The Korean mart is trader, just gives out free lollipops.

Joyce 44:59

Oh, don't tell my kids that they don't know that.

Sophia 45:02

I never offered it. to him. They offered,

Joyce 45:04

I didn't even know that you told me. I was like, I, they've never got a lollipop

Sophia 45:08

the cashier rips up like a whole handful of lollipop. Do you want a lollipop? And from then on 12 Tov learned. He learns this very quick, that at Trader Joe's when you're checking out, you get free lollipops. And usually we are at Trader Joe's, like late morning, just before lunch or late afternoon, just before dinner. So then I have to say, no Lollipop right now, you can have the lollipop after the meal. And it was always like tears and

Joyce 45:36

Delayed. Gratification is also a beautiful skill to learn, but it's the most painful as a parent.

Sophia 45:42

But also one of the most important boundaries that they can learn as children.

Joyce 45:46

So important.

Sophia 45:47

can't have what you want right now,

Joyce 45:49

Yes.

Sophia 45:50

sometimes ever.

Joyce 45:51

Right.

Sophia 45:53

it's always that tense moment when you are checking out. Like, uh, it, here comes the tan drum.

Joyce 45:59

Yeah,

Sophia 46:00

one day I just realized, I told him, okay, here's your lollipop. I'll hold onto it and I'll give it to you after dinner. He's like, okay. And then another time he just handed me the lollipop by himself. I'm like, oh, was just so surprised. But I was like, okay, all those parenting advice works

Joyce 46:18

repetition. Repetition does work. It's just painful sometimes 'cause it's like oh, oh, oh.

Sophia 46:26

but when that happened, I was just like, I was just so shocked. Wow, you, learned. You did And then I think it was just like a moment for me. Like, yes, I just need to keep at it like I myself, have to learn delay gratification. Like I don't get to immediately expect my kids to learn a discipline skill one week, two weeks, sometimes even months.

Joyce 46:51

Right?

Sophia 46:51

you just keep on, have to be consistent. Keep on repeating, and one day hopefully will get it.

Joyce 46:59

Mm-hmm. dude, I did not know about the lollipop thing. Thank gosh.

Sophia 47:03

Yeah. I will not mention it to your kids

Joyce 47:05

No,

Sophia 47:05

promise you that.

Joyce 47:06

But yeah, delay gratification is such an important skill. Consistency as a parent is such an important skill. It's a hard skill. It's so hard.

Sophia 47:17

and another one that all the parenting advice says first is stay calm.

Joyce 47:23

Yeah. No, I can't,

Sophia 47:25

No, we can, again, like this is a skill that we are still learning. Repetition, repetition, failure, repetition, repetition. But one day

Joyce 47:34

It will be

Sophia 47:35

to achieve calmness, maybe not a hundred percent of the time, maybe 10, then 10.01%, 10.02%. One day we will slowly inch up to like 30%.

Joyce 47:54

Yeah. I will say like being calm. I think what I have noticed actually is I'm able to recover faster and repair faster now. before that used to just be like a hard spiral and that is now something where I'm like able to whew, alright, I messed up. You messed up too. You messed up. I messed up. This is why this is not appropriate for the both of us. and slowly but surely the calm will happen too. We're learning. And we're having to discipline ourselves into that process, which is a very hard process.

Sophia 48:29

it is.

Joyce 48:30

Yeah.

Sophia 48:31

me too, I learned, okay, so this is fresh. This is fresh. But just yesterday I got to experience what it means to be calm, even though I just wanted to scream, but I was able to stay calm because I actually saw the behavior for what it was,

Joyce 48:48

Mm.

Sophia 48:49

and instead of putting a moral value on it.

Joyce 48:51

Yes.

Sophia 48:52

I saw that this was a kid. Okay, so what happened yesterday? Yesterday was Wednesday, right?

Joyce 49:00

Uh,

Sophia 49:01

Yesterday's Thursday, yes. mom brain. But yesterday, Joyce and I had a play date and we were out. and I don't know if anyone can relate, but for me being outside and if there's sun, I get drained when I get home. So I think about the sun,

Joyce 49:15

The sun is draining. It's very draining.

Sophia 49:17

me. Okay. So I came back. I'm tired, but then I also had signed up for a meal train for one of our friends, mutual friends who had a baby. And so get home, put Uri down for a nap, and then I was immediately like cooking, baking for two hours while I was managing tove. But Tove also had a very active day. He was on his bike the whole morning. He was running up and down. He also had a lot of sun and He was baking and helping me cook or running around the house again. And then by late afternoon, and I was solo parenting, he was just having tantrum of the tantrum first. It was because we had to return a book from the library that was due. It's called Amazing Apples, and it's a dumb book, but he was just like ah, was legitimately like, like crying, like, like I was trying to take away his favorite toy. And I I told him, I will go back to the library tomorrow and borrow it again. But it is due. he was crying and, and meltdown. but then we also had to go to Trader Joe's because we had run out of several stuff. So then we plow to the car, and then we go to Trader Joe's and okay. while we grocery shopping, he has a meltdown again in the middle of the store because he insisted on buying a orange bell pepper. He has a thing about vegetables. he's a very, um, interesting kid where he would actually go to sleep with a

Joyce 50:38

Yeah, he gets emotional support. Veggies. It's so cute.

Sophia 50:41

like today, he clung onto a grape tomato the whole day at school. oh, by the way, he's still holding onto it right now as he sleeps. This is, this is my tof.

Joyce 50:49

It is very impressive that he doesn't crush it though. You have to give him credit.

Sophia 50:54

well, he did complain to me that it was a little wrinkly,

Joyce 50:57

Yeah,

Sophia 50:57

him That's because you're crushing it.

Joyce 50:59

he didn't pop it. Impressive.

Sophia 51:01

yeah, I know. It a makes his baby. It's

Joyce 51:03

restraint. There is self restraint.

Sophia 51:06

there's some

Joyce 51:06

See?

Sophia 51:07

Yes. But, okay, so he wanted his orange bell pepper. I said, no, because nobody in the house likes bell peppers. And we already have a bell pepper from a previous trip that nobody touched and is getting wrinkly and disgusting because we all don't like bell peppers Anyway, so he's just like, and everyone's staring. I told him no, I already said no. and then I said, I think you're tired. Let's go home. I saw, I was like, okay, turn about tantrum. Over things that he usually wouldn't be melting down over. So I knew like, okay, this is a tire kit because I'm tired. tired. Okay, let's go. And then we're checking out. And then he asked for a red lollipop, gets the red lollipop. And then I said, as usual, we have this after dinner and then melts down, screaming, screaming. then, you know, one of the Trader Joe's people, they're so kind, they're like, oh, the cat does he want stickers. I was like, no, stickers won't fix this. He's just tired. but then I was impressed with myself. I just wanted to give myself a giant hug of congratulations because I stay calm the entire time

Joyce 52:15

especially like grocery store, meltdowns are so overstimulating, you're just like, ah, it's a lot.

Sophia 52:22

URI is like crushing my bag of, chips. with her hands, like it's like a squeeze bottle. Um, and like this, it's cool. It's cool.

Joyce 52:31

I am fine. I'm fine. We're all okay? We're all okay.

Sophia 52:34

but I think the number one thing was just because I saw

Joyce 52:38

What it was? Yeah.

Sophia 52:40

and it was that 12 is very tired

Joyce 52:43

Yes.

Sophia 52:43

and we need to go home soon and probably we should not have done this Trader Joe's run. so I was able to stay calm. I was still holding boundaries. I still said no, I didn't give him that lollipop. We got in the car while he was screaming and I played some worship music for him really to calm all of us down. And it all ended out well because like he was able to calm down. Because I was able to be calm. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I feel like I just deserve, I don't know. I need a donut. I need someone to give me gifts for this,

Joyce 53:20

Spa day for the lady, David.

Sophia 53:24

but this is when I was like, oh, this is a discipline example. That actually went well.

Joyce 53:31

I think that's like, so it's the key, right? one, not putting, accidentally, putting a moral value on something that really doesn't need a moral value on it. Not accidentally putting anxious projection fears onto it. as a parent. I think being able to step away from the, like almost like mentally being able to step back and looking at the whole picture. And I think that's hard because sometimes as parents we're just in it. We are so in it, and we're just kind of going minute by minute and we're just trying to get through the thing. And so the fact that you were able to kind of just pause, mentally, pause, take a step back, and you're able to see tove in the big picture of like, yeah, he's just tired and this is also on me 'cause I probably shouldn't have done this. Like to be able to take the blame away from him and like to actually shift it back onto yourself is a huge moment. And so That's amazing.

Sophia 54:25

yeah. I mean, I talked about the calmness and the consistency, but also I didn't give him a

Joyce 54:30

Yeah.

Sophia 54:30

I didn't at nighttime, like, oh, you shouldn't, you know what you should have done. Because I knew that wasn't like a behavior issue. he was just reacting because his whole body was just exhausted

Joyce 54:42

and he himself couldn't even control it. he probably wanted to hold it in and he just couldn't.

Sophia 54:47

And he told me too, he was like, I'm just having a hard time. I'm

Joyce 54:49

Oh,

Sophia 54:50

you are. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I dragged you through this entire day. without even giving you some rest. I need rest too. I didn't give myself any rest. Um, so I feel you.

Joyce 55:00

yes, yes. Parenting is hard. I think part of it too, I don't know if this is what it feels like for you too, but for me, are days where I like hold it in, where I'm like able to stay calm through like a lot of the overstimulation that they do a small little thing that's where I over discipline on something that wasn't really necessary to be disciplined on. And then I,

Sophia 55:21

been there.

Joyce 55:22

yeah, and I think that's where often it happens for me is more often than not, I'm usually. Just holding it in and like able to like push through it in the sense of like, I'm like, all right, I'm cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. But there's a certain point where I'm like, I'm not cool. I'm not cool. And yeah, I also don't have the ability to be able to step back in this moment to get myself cool to like try to regulate myself way through it. And it's just like one small thing that I just self implode and I put the blame on the child instead of putting it on myself is really what it comes down to.

Sophia 55:55

yeah,

Joyce 55:56

Yeah.

Sophia 55:56

one time when I was against solo parenting for multiple days at a time, and I was just tired. I was dysregulated and I finally blew up and it definitely wasn't misbehave. It was just, it was annoying because they were dumping out tubs of rice.

Joyce 56:12

Oh my Lord. That is so annoying.

Sophia 56:16

but again, like it was them being silly and it was honestly also my fault to put that tub of rice where it was easily accessible.

Joyce 56:24

Right.

Sophia 56:24

That was my first mistake. But then like, I just like flipped out because I saw them as being disobedient I literally told them, I'm so tired. Why are you making me more tired? Like, don't you even care about me? It was like I was

Joyce 56:41

The unhinged tired mom. Yes, yes, yes. I know. Exactly.

Sophia 56:46

you doing this to

Joyce 56:47

Yeah. Why are you being a child making my life miserable right now when I chose to have you in this mom? I totally get it. Yeah. That's like all the time. And I'm like, why can't you just do it? And I'm like, why? Because why am I expecting him to be able to do this right now?

Sophia 57:08

Yeah.

Joyce 57:08

Why am I.

Sophia 57:09

like to will yell when he's frustrated then I get frustrated and I yell at him to stop yelling.

Joyce 57:15

know the irony. I notice that too, and I'll like raise my voice. I'm like, stop yelling, stop yelling, stop yelling. Like through gritted teeth,

Sophia 57:25

this is when like Toby will be like, don't yell at me. Okay. That's not gentle kind.

Joyce 57:31

you're like, mm, dang it.

Sophia 57:34

I just love how he's like, don't yell me. Okay. where did you get that?

Joyce 57:39

Oh yeah. Ian will just, Ian's just like so funny in the sense of like his. Ability. he'll just kind of like take it and then finally he'll just be like, um, I'm just a good kid having a hard time. And I'm like, ah, yeah,

Sophia 57:55

right. He's seeing it accurately. I love that. I love that though.

Joyce 57:59

I guess you are. I guess I am having a hard time. He's like, yeah, you are. I'm like, yep, I am. I'm gonna move away now.

Sophia 58:07

Okay. This, to me is proof that you are doing a great job,

Joyce 58:11

Thank you.

Sophia 58:12

that he does not internalize things even moments when you might erupt. He doesn't internalize it, but he knows that he is a good kid. And he's just having a hard time, or you are having a hard time.

Joyce 58:26

Yeah,

Sophia 58:27

That's, that's disturbed

Joyce 58:28

I know. Yeah. There was a couple times where I like. Just flipped out. And I remember I came back and I apologized once I was calm and then I remember he was just like, you were scaring me so much. I had to like hide. And I was like, Ugh, I'm so sorry. That sucks. He's like, yeah, please don't do that again. I'm like, I will try not to. But I will say one time I actually was able to like catch myself when I was about to rage for no necessary reason on them. And I was like, I need to go downstairs. I need a low dive 'cause I'm getting crazy and I'm gonna get mad at you. And I tell them like I'm about to say some mean things to you for no reason. So I need to go downstairs. And then I remember I was like downstairs and Tyke, obviously, my Velcro baby was trying to come downstairs and I hear Kingo like, no, leave mom alone. Leave him alone. She doesn't want us there. I could hear Tyke's like no down was like, no, like, do not, don't do it. He's like, do not let, let the dragon rage. He's like, let the dragon rage downstairs.

Sophia 59:37

let the dragon cool down.

Joyce 59:40

and I hear Tyler like, no,

Sophia 59:42

Dude. is this episode about disciplining our children or disciplining ourselves? I

Joyce 59:46

it's both.

Sophia 59:47

both.

Joyce 59:48

I mean because like as you're disciplining your kids, it's such a self-reflection on how you discipline your kids and what you're choosing to discipline your kids on. It's hard.

Sophia 59:58

Yeah. One thing I've been thinking about is like, oh, I need to actually also work on how I speak to David.

Joyce 1:00:04

Yeah.

Sophia 1:00:05

snappy or just like too casual where I don't say please or like, thank you. He says like, Hey, pass me that. You know? and then David would do that to me too.

Joyce 1:00:17

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 1:00:17

and the kids started just listening to our exchange. I'm like, are not gentle and kind to each other. We need to watch our tone with each other. David and I, our relationship has never been like, oh, it's tag. Yeah.

Joyce 1:00:29

Mm-hmm.

Sophia 1:00:30

You know, Hey

Joyce 1:00:31

Oh.

Sophia 1:00:31

Like, yeah, we, I call him David. He calls me Sophia. we are not like lovey-dovey externally, even though we deeply love each other. But then I realized like, hmm, we, we don't have to make ourselves be. So unnaturally affectionate, but we can work on our tone. That's something I've been kind of thinking of and I've been talking to David about too.

Joyce 1:00:56

Honestly, like Tyler and I, we openly argue in front of the kids. there's different camps for different people, but we openly argue. and that has put a greater level of, I think, importance and urgency for me to, and for Tyler, for us to like be able to argue, well, because we're modeling it in front of our kids. and also modeling repair. 'cause afterwards they see us you know, like kiss and hug each other and we're like back and we're happy again. Because for Tyler, he never saw his parents argue. Ever.

Sophia 1:01:27

I never saw my parents

Joyce 1:01:28

Yeah. And like never had their voice raised or anything like that. So he didn't have like an understanding of argument. it was to the point where he actually thought a good marriage that you never fight. Like that's

Sophia 1:01:41

no

Joyce 1:01:42

there's no conflict. And so even when we were dating, I'm like, we're in the middle of an argument and he's like, he didn't even like the word argument. And he's like, no, no, we're not arguing. We're just, we're having differences. And I'm like, we are in a fight, man. we are arguing. And it's come a long way. So as a result for us, we wanna be able to model that. but I mean, sometimes

Sophia 1:02:03

value in that.

Joyce 1:02:04

I think so too. I think being able to model it and it's also puts a greater level of accountability on us to be able to do better.

Sophia 1:02:12

I think it also seems to maybe create a sense of security for your kids too. That you can have conflict and you can still be in love and you can still repair with conflict. Like conflict is not something to be afraid of.

Joyce 1:02:24

Yeah. Yeah. And I'll also have to talk with the kids afterwards, be like, I know all my yelled and you know, we still love each other. I just want you to know we still love each other. I will say the one thing about discipline also that's been hard for me, that I've been working through is really the age. Gap and also being able to do it fairly because Kian gets a lot of it because at this current stage of where they are right now, Ty is like Kian shadow. and Kian obviously has such a hard sway and influence onto Ty that Ty will do things because Kian just tells him to do it. And so we're hard on Kian because we are also trying to teach him like your words have meaning and impact, and you as the oldest brother have very heavy impact on your younger brother. And that's not okay. It's not okay for you to think it's funny for him to do something that we just told him not to do, and that's on you. I mean, I knew that that was gonna be a thing, but like I now realize, like, I'm like, oh, this is why the eldest also just gets so. They get heart on all the time because they unintentionally are the example for the all the other siblings, right?

Sophia 1:03:42

because I'm, I'm the older

Joyce 1:03:44

Yeah.

Sophia 1:03:45

I remember as a kid constantly being told your siblings are watching you, your siblings are watching you,

Joyce 1:03:50

Right,

Sophia 1:03:50

just felt like I had a higher standard of performing this good behavior for the sick of my sibling.

Joyce 1:03:57

Yeah. And which I don't want for Kian. Like I don't want it to be where like you need to be best because you are the example. 'cause I think that's not fair. 'cause at the end of the day, all the other kids are going to be who they are too. Right. and I don't want unfair pressure on Kian, but however, when he's telling his younger brother to do things that's gonna get in trouble, I'm like, well I guess we're now gonna have to tell you them. The thing that I didn't wanna have to accidentally put on you, but I'm like, you have influence on your siblings and it's such a weird, it's such a hard balance for a four and a half year old

Sophia 1:04:30

it is a tough area to thread on

Joyce 1:04:33

yeah.

Sophia 1:04:34

put undue responsibility on him, but he does indeed have a responsibility as the older

Joyce 1:04:40

right.

Sophia 1:04:41

It's unfair, but that is the way it is. And he also needs to learn that, that he does have a measure of responsibility. it's the trickiest, trying not to make it so onerous, and burdensome on him, rather. How do you make that responsibility be something that he takes pride in? That's tough. That takes a lot of wisdom. I don't have it. So

Joyce 1:05:06

Girl.

Sophia 1:05:06

can, you can tell me when you learn it, when need to figure it out. Please

Joyce 1:05:11

I'll, we'll just work through it together. How about with that? We'll work through it simultaneously.

Sophia 1:05:16

This is what the podcast is all about. This is what this podcast is for. We are just working things out

Joyce 1:05:21

Yes.

Sophia 1:05:22

real time.

Joyce 1:05:23

And we're bringing all of you along with us.

Sophia 1:05:26

Yeah. And on that note, I think this is a good place to

Joyce 1:05:29

Yeah.

Sophia 1:05:30

think. I think this was a good conversation,

Joyce 1:05:32

Yeah, I think so too.

Sophia 1:05:33

think this is a topic that will continue to expand and evolve as the kids gets older. And hopefully as we get more experience and wisdom under belt. I mean, there are so many parenting advice out there. the noise is loud we, I'm in the process of, chewing the meat and spitting out the bones. Figuring out what actually works for

Joyce 1:05:58

Yeah.

Sophia 1:05:59

not everything works, but so far I think we can both agree that the two thing is become and be consistent.

Joyce 1:06:06

Yes.

Sophia 1:06:06

that is the skeleton of how we our kids,

Joyce 1:06:11

Yep. Calm and consistency, which will, we'll,

Sophia 1:06:14

Yeah.

Joyce 1:06:15

know, y'all will be hearing about our journey to get there.

Sophia 1:06:18

Uhhuh.

Joyce 1:06:20

Sophia, you wanna close this out? Yeah.

Sophia 1:06:22

Yeah. Oh, dear you heavenly Father, you that we get to call you Father. Lord, thank you that you are our perfect father and that you, that we have with you, the love that you show us, the goodness and the patience and the firmness that you show us, Lord, that you modeling for us. How to also model for our children. during this time, we just have been reflecting a lot. know that there are so many things that we need to work on, but we are thankful that you are good God, and that you are working on it. We believe you, Lord. We believe and we have faith in you, and we trust in you that you are working deep work in us. And Lord, give us wisdom. Give us patience. Help our love to be a feeling, but put wisdom into our love. Put practical, how into our love so that each moment, Lord, we lean on you, and we hear from you on how to guide our children, guide us in our guidance of our children, Lord, and give us grace. as you always do. us compassion and mercy as you always do we fail inevitably. But during those times, repentance, Lord, I pray our kids will see that and our kids will see that we can always up to you and you'll answer with love and with mercy. your loving kindness, Lord, is what we drink from every day, and we need it so much. And we thank you that it never runs out. I pray for all of our listeners, Lord, that whatever journey we are on in a, in discipline right now, Lord, that we walk with you. And growing you. I pray that mistakes will not be hurtful or wounds for children, but you will redeem them. you redeem all of our mistakes, Lord, and our kids will get to know you through us. Jesus. Just name me, pray. Amen

1:08:27

Thank you so much for listening. If you've been liking our episodes, please follow, like, subscribe, or leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. We'd love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and feedback. You can find us on Instagram at the old Oma Club, or reach out to us at the old Oma club@gmail.com. You gotta give it. Big thank you to Kevin Lar for our music. Until next time, amaz, may the Lord bless you and keep you sane, hydrated, and fulfilled the way only he can.