The American Story – Episode 14: Leading Where It Matters Most with Matt Krause

In Episode 14 of The American Story, Tim Barton sits down with Texas County Commissioner Matt Krause to talk about the power and responsibility of local leadership. This conversation goes beyond politics—it’s about living out your faith where it matters most.

Matt shares how Christian conviction shapes the way he leads, makes decisions, and serves the people around him. Together, they discuss what it means to stand for truth with humility, lead with courage, and be a light in your community—even when it’s not easy.

If you’ve ever wondered how your faith connects to real impact, this episode will both challenge and encourage you to step up and stand firm.

Learn more at WallBuilders.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Biblical illiteracy, I think, is one of the uh biggest failings we have in our country today. And it's the church's fault. I remember hearing from wall builders for the first time, Charles Finney, in his words in the second great awakening, he said, Hey, if there's decay in our in our uh in our legislature, if there's decay in our world and our culture, it's the church's fault. And so I 100% agree with you. Look at the moral ills of the society. The church has got have got their work cut out for them.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Someone who, if you don't know, there's actually an ESPN magazine that had his face in it. He was kind of a big deal. He's someone who has been a state legislator. He is a religious liberty attorney. He's actually a county commissioner in Fort Worth right now. The guy's incredible. His name is Matt Krause, and he is joining us today to talk about maybe some of the role that Christians can and should play in local politics and government, but also ultimately how he has followed God's calling on his life and all the things he has done, including in sports. So we are so excited to have Matt Krauss today. Matt, thank you for being on the podcast today. Thanks for having me. That guy you were talking about sounds incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

So I want to get to know him.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, as someone who grew up a sports guy and always wanted to like have my picture in ESPN magazine for being an athlete. So, what's that story and what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yeah, you know, uh basketball was a big part of my growing up, loved playing, always in the gym. And I so when I went to college, I wanted to find somewhere where I could play. There was a school in San Diego, an NAI school, Christian Heritage College, that said, come on out, we want you to play. We had a really good team, our sophomore year. We actually ended up making it to the NAI Final Four that year. And that happened to be the year that ESP and the magazine sent their writer to cover the NAI national tournament. It's called the the Little Big Dance. Uh, we only had 32 teams compared to 64 in the NCAA, but our team uh had a really just good run. Uh I had a great tournament, and so uh ended up getting to be featured in that along with my teammates, and it was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

That's amazing. Uh, and now you are married with kids, and some of your kids are some pretty good athletes too.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Absolutely. In fact, we just got back from a uh national homeschool tournament where our uh 12-year-old daughter Gracie and my wife Jenny, who coaches her, won the whole thing, won the national championship. So they are the 12U undisputed national champions, uh teams from Tennessee, uh Virginia, Hawaii, uh, Indiana, all over the country. So they did all that. And my daughter actually, my 18-year-old daughter actually ended up third. So uh they they get a lot of good jeans from my wife, Jenny, who also played in college. And so uh we're we're a basketball crazy family. It's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

I will and and I I appreciate the fact that every year on social media, uh you you post that you and your your family, your kids, y'all would pick NCAA, the the bracket. Uh and I I love it because I've seen you guys do this for years. Um, early on, you would have kids that would pick based on like the favorite color or the mascot or whichever one they could pronounce.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

I mean, from the time there were about two, we would give them the first seed in the in the fifth uh the second seed, but they would pick everybody else. And if you win, you get to pick dinner and dessert. And so one year our four-year-old inexplicably won. And so we had macaroni and cheese and fruit snacks uh as the uh championship dinner. So it was uh uh we were pulling for some of the other kids that year, but uh, but I've never won it. And so I'm a basketball fanatic, never won that bracket, but uh my wife just won this recent one and she she's incredible in that as well. Okay, so did she did she pick Michigan or did she she got she picked Michigan uh for the championship? So she called it James also. Our 14-year-old picked it uh Michigan, but Jenny did a little better in those earlier rounds. So those early rounds are important when it gets down to it.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I love it. So so for those that don't know you, um, let's back up and tell part of your story. Obviously, you were an athlete, uh collegiate basketball player. What happens from there? Because you've been now a religious liberty attorney, you still are active in that, you've been involved in politics. Was that your ambition? Or how did God lead you down that path?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, you know, uh our parents play such an important role in our lives, and I know yours has in crafting kind of where you were going. For me, my dad gave me some of the greatest uh advice early in life, and that's because I came from a long line of pastors, right? My dad was a pastor, both my grandfathers were pastors, my great-grandfather was a pastor, my brother's a pastor, my uncle's a pastor, I've got two cousins who are pastors, and so when you grow up in that, you're like, okay, I guess that's what I'm supposed to do. So I talked to my dad early on, and he gave me two great pieces of advice. He said, if you can think of anything else you'd rather do, do that because ministry is a hard calling. And so if you're not really called to it, you shouldn't be doing it because it's hard. And then his other piece of advice was everybody's got a pulpit, it just may not be in a church, right? So you've got to find where God has called you to impact the culture, to advance the kingdom. And so uh ministry, love going to church, loved the Lord, got saved at a young age. So I I loved Jesus, but I didn't feel like I was called to be a full-time minister. And so I thought, what do what do I love? And so I loved the founding fathers, I loved the constitution, I love the law, uh, I like politics. So I thought maybe that's where I ought to go. And about my junior year in college, I thought, man, politics is really kind of something where I feel like I could be salt and light. And so uh I said, what do I need to do? Every politician I knew or heard of had gone to law school, was an attorney. So I said, I probably need to go to law school. That's what sent me down that road.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Okay, and and and I I do want to point out when you say you didn't feel the call to be a minister, I know at this point you recognize God has you in an incredible ministry. Uh and and as your dad said, right, everybody's gonna have kind of their pulpit. It just might not always be inside the church. That's right, right, where your ministry is. And I say that because, man, if there's a place we could use some more ministers, right? 100%. We could use some more in politics and in law. Uh, it feels like where there's just lots of corruption and slime, and you know, it's it's a mess. And so the fact that God has called you and led you to this position and you have such a firm foundation of faith, it's one of the things we love so much about you. We've been able to actually connect and work with you for years, but let's back up. So you go to law school. Where along the way do you go? I want to get involved in politics because you were in school in California. That's right. So, where where did you go to law school and how do you end up in Texas?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, so I was in uh graduated from Christian Heritage, which was on the campus of David Jeremiah's school. So if you've ever heard of David Jeremiah, uh incredible pastor out of Southern California. If you haven't, you ought to go look him up. Just start listening to his sermon. Pretty good Bible teacher. Brilliant, probably the best Bible teacher, I think, in America today. So uh started working for him in his radio and television ministry uh after college, and uh Jerry Falwell came to speak at the church one Sunday night. And so after church, they went out to dinner, and Jerry Falwell was talking about this new law school that he was putting together. Well, I'd already been applying to law schools, already gotten accepted into law schools, and Dr. Jeremiah said, Hey, we got a kid working for us that's gonna go to law school. And Falwell said, Hey, have that kid uh come to my Christian law school, not to some secular law school. So Dr. Jeremiah took Jenny and I, and his wife took Jenny and I out to eat and said, Hey, would you even be interested in going to Liberty's Law School? It's brand new. Um, I said, Sure, we'd be interested. Just let me know. Uh, didn't hear anything for a couple of weeks. So literally the day we were packing up our uh U-Haul to move from California to Ohio to go to Toledo Law School, uh, we got a call from Liberty University School of Law and said, Hey, would you consider coming here? We said, sure. So uh, in between packing up boxes, we faxed in our application to Liberty University, finished packing up. They called us back at about two or three uh Pacific time and said, Hey, we've met with the admissions committee. Uh you're you've been approved. Why don't you come to Virginia? So we printed out maps from uh Ohio, and now we're going to Virginia. We booked an apartment online and uh drove out to Lynchburg, and that's where we went to law school, was Liberty University.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

I love the fact that also you said you faxed in your application. We did. We did you printed off maps because this is this is 2004.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

So this is the world was that's exactly right. That's exactly right. But it could not have been better. And my wife, who is a planner, she always wants to know what's going on. I thought this might be a lot for her. She just felt that peace of God right away. And she's like, this is exactly what we're supposed to do. Let's go. And so that took us out to Liberty University, got to be a part of the first class at the law school. Wow. And uh actually ended up uh getting to introduce your dad. Uh he was the first speaker. We built a courtroom that rep uh replicated the Supreme Court. It was a very cool deal. And the first speaker ever was David Barton in that, and I got to introduce him because I was from Texas, and so that was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

That's awesome. Now, this was so Matt Staver is the guy who was the founder of their law school.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, uh uh Bruce Green, who's a Texan, was the uh founding dean of the law school, and then Matt was the second dean after him. And really when so when we got accreditation, Matt was the uh was the dean at the time.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Okay, because I I know he's he has a law firm, uh Liberty Council. That's right. Uh, and they have done a lot of noted cases. Uh and actually in your law career, you've had the chance to work for a few pretty noted people along the way.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

That's right. It's and so Matt was one of those. And so during law school, I actually interned with Liberty Council. And after law school, he said, hey, we want to start a Texas office. Uh, obviously wanted to go back to Texas, so that's how I got back to Texas was uh in 2007, came back and started the uh Texas office for Liberty Council, um, and did that until I got elected to the Texas House in 2012. And so been able to work for Matt Staver, now getting to work for Kelly Shackleford, uh, it's really been just an incredible honor.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

So both of those for uh probably people that have followed Wallbuilders very long, uh, especially we have a daily radio program. We've interviewed Matt Staver, Kelly Shackleford dozens of times over the last couple of years. Very good friends of Wallbuilders organization and just incredible men of God who want to restore some of the basic constitutional fabric and foundation, specifically with religious liberty, uh, and and Kelly Shackleford to First Liberty, that that is really the only thing they focus on. Because Matt Staver will do a little broader constitutional stuff. But working for First Liberty, that is the largest law firm that does nothing but defending religious freedom. And you are now part of the most successful law uh firm, I guess would be the way to say it, that is representing religious freedom in the US Supreme Court because is it like 11 cases?

SPEAKER_00 11:04

11 and oh. It's not just 11 cases, but 11 wins in 11 cases. At the U.S. Supreme Court. That's right. And and you know, most attorneys, most groups, if they get one case at the Supreme Court, two, maybe three cases in a in a career, I mean, that's pretty unbelievable. Uh the amount of cases that the Supreme Court takes compared to the amount they could is minuscule. And so to even get one uh is pretty unbelievable. The fact that uh Kelly and his team are now 11 and oh, it just shows uh the work they do is is is excellent. And so it's it's incredible to be a part of.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

It it also I think is revealing too of some of the culture that we live in today, uh, how much uh we have shifted away from some of the the religious and biblical foundation, even from a freedom standpoint, and how restrictive our culture has been over the last many decades, actually against Christian ideals or values, or even the idea of expression of belief. And so the fact you guys are winning these cases is a reflection of how how much we've gone in a wrong direction, but now that is being restored, and and I do want to get into that because you have a huge initiative you're working on. Um, but I I my brain is like, well, go chronological because we haven't gotten through legislature yet. Yeah. So, okay, let's back up. What was the call going from an attorney to saying, I want to be a state legislature, uh, or in the state legislature, you're a legislator. Why, why did you feel that call or that desire?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Yeah, so it was around, so I always felt like, okay, politics since my junior year in college is probably something I would do. I didn't know if that was when I was in my 20s, in my 30s, 40s, 50s, you know, whatever it is. I guess now in your late 70s is the time to run for president. So, you know, it could be a long life cycle. Um, but uh Barack Obama got elected in 2008, and he said, I want to fundamentally transform the country. And I thought, oh man, I don't like that. Uh and he did. Yeah, and he did. But if I went, if we went to our wives, we went to Gabby, I went to Jenny and said, Hey, I want to fundamentally transform you, right? We'd be on the couch for a month, right? Because if you truly love something, you don't want to fundamentally transform it. You want to make it better, you want to improve it, you want to become that more perfect union, but you don't want to fundamentally transform it. And I happen to think the foundation that America was built on has given us that success for 250 years. It was the strongest foundation any country's ever been built on. So when you have a politician saying, I want to completely, fundamentally change that, it made me very nervous. We had two kids at the time. I said, Man, I want the state of Texas, the country of America to be the same great state and country that I grew up in. I've got to start getting involved. So uh I talked with Bob McEwen, uh one of our good friends, about hey, how do I do that? I talked to David Barton, uh, you know, how do I do this? And they both encouraged me, Congress is it's, you know, it's there, but you can really make a change at the state level. So I looked at my state representative, felt like I would have a different voting record. And I what I love about America is if you want to make a change, you just start. So I just started knocking on doors. We knocked on 7,000 doors that first run, just telling people who I was, why I thought I was better than the than the incumbent. We lost, but it gave me such an appreciation for the process and taught me so many lessons that in 2012, when they redrew the lines and redistricting, I actually ended up in a brand new district, and that's when I ran and that's when I won.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Okay, so what was when you say you you knew you'd have a different voting record from the legislator that was currently there, what was maybe some of the impetus you thought these are the problems that I want to help fix in Texas specifically, and this is where I would be different.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah, so a lot of it was uh on pro-life legislation. Uh Texas was okay on pro-life legislation at the time, but we weren't leading, we weren't being bold uh on some of the economic issues, right? Uh maybe raising a fee here, raising a fee there. Uh, and I know you uh you've always talked about you can pretty much if you look at their pro-life stance, and that pretty much tells you where they are on everything else, right? And and that lines up. And so you just saw these kind of little differences, like, okay, it's not, it's maybe not the worst. It wasn't like uh competing opposite parties because we were both in a primary, right? Um, so we agreed on a lot, but it there was not a lot of bold fighting for it. And I thought that's what we needed. It wasn't just people who were gonna vote the right way, it was people who are gonna take stands on issues and really fight and push for the things that we held most dear, which again, as a Christian, that that's who I was. And I always got annoyed when people said, Oh, well, you can't bring your faith into your political office or to your campaign. Well, of course you can. Uh, that was the most important thing in my life. It still is. How can you divorce the most important thing in your life from the job that you're trying to do? It's just impossible.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

So let me let me go there with you for a second, because you're someone that was obviously a state legislator for a lot of years. And let's let's unpack that for people that are watching and listening, that are thinking, but wait a second, you're not supposed to mix religion and government. I'm gonna ask what could almost be a rhetorical question, yeah, but I want you to run with it for a minute uh because uh every single piece of legislation, I'm gonna give you my premise and then you walk with it. Every single piece of legislation is reflective of someone's morality, what they think is right and wrong. And so if we're saying that we don't want Christian morality, then you're suggesting that we should have some other standard of right and wrong. And I would contend that there was no greater moral teacher than Jesus. Like even if you don't believe he's a savior, which I should, that's right. He is, that's right, right. He is, but even if you didn't believe that, there's no greater moral teacher than Jesus. So if you're gonna say that we can't follow the moral teachings of Jesus or Christianity, then what standard are we gonna use? Because it's it's gonna be subjective, it's gonna be collective, we just all vote and make it up as we go, or there's gonna be an objective standard we point to. So this idea, well, we don't want we don't want the Christianity imposing this, I would then ask, then then what is your moral guide? Because I know you worked with people that uh would profess Christianity and their voting record did not always reflect Christianity. So how how did you think about that? And maybe how did you engage in conversations with people that thought you should separate your faith from how you vote?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

That's right. So, you know, when when you're a social conservative, which I was, when you're concerned about those social moral issues, you file a lot of legislation dealing with that, right? Whether uh divorce reform, whether it's religious liberty bills, whether it's pro-life, pro-family, whatever it is. So when you file those bills, you start to get a lot of questions from your colleagues about them. And I got so many of why are you trying to legislate morality? You cannot legislate morality. And I would say, okay, let's unpack that, right? Uh do you feel like uh a woman's right to choose what goes on with her body is a moral issue? Well, of course I do. Do you feel like global warming is a moral issue? Of course I do. Do you feel like fair wages and union dues are are those moral issues? Well, of course they're moral issues. Don't you have legislation that addresses all of those? Well, yes. Well, then aren't you trying to legislate morality? And sometimes it'd be like the light bulb went off, like, oh, okay. Because every piece of legislation is legislating morality. Every piece. Which worldview and perspective and morality are you going to choose? And so what they're really telling you is like you just said, we don't want the Christian worldview. Don't legislate the Christian worldview. We want to be able to legislate our own worldview and what we believe. And so I would try to get them to understand every time you go to that floor and hit that button, you're legislating morality. You just want your morality in place instead of mine. And so that I understand why you want to, but I'm going to fight for my worldview and my perspective because I do believe it is the best for our society, best for our communities. I think the Christian worldview, the Christian principles elevate society for everybody, even if you're not a Christian more than anything else. Why would I not pursue that?

SPEAKER_01 18:50

And I think in the midst of everything you're saying, I think a lot of people, like you, you mentioned that the light bulb would come on sometimes with these conversations. A lot of people haven't been challenged to really critically think through their position. And so a lot of people don't realize they are on a hill trying to defend an indefensible position. It's right like that your ideas don't work at all, but they haven't been challenged to think through them. And one of the things that I really enjoy doing, more so with students, I have these opportunities, but I'll speak sometimes at high schools, universities. And sometimes when I try to walk people through this idea, I explain that there's only three options for morality. It's either subjective, it's collective, or objective. And subjective is everybody determines for themselves, right? It's part of what we read in judges that every man did with his right in his own eyes, but it's part of what's being taught in culture now. Well, that's your truth. This is my truth. Reality, like we should we, you don't have to be really smart to know that's never gonna work. Because anytime we see someone take a gun and go into a school and kill kids, and we're like, well, that's so wrong, of course it is. But if you ask the person doing it, they'd be like, Well, I just felt like I needed to do well, okay, so it wasn't wrong to them, and well, who are you to tell somebody else they're wrong? So subjective morality is never going to work. There's collective, which means let's just all vote on it, which we all voted on a lot of stuff. That's right. But just because somebody legalizes it does not mean it is moral. 100%, right? For the more than 5,000 years of recorded human history, one of the things that was legal, almost all of recorded human history was slavery. And we look today and be like, well, clearly that was immoral. That's exactly right. And yet the vast majority of human history, humanity agreed that this was an okay thing to do. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's moral. Well, the only other option, if it's not subjective, it's not collective, there's an objective standard. And even inside objective standards, I would contend that there is more than one objective standard, depending on how you define that, because the Jews have the Torah, Christians have the Bible, the Muslims would say they have a Quran, even though, like, arguably that wasn't put together until the 1900s. Not to digress on that. But right, if you they say this is our objective standard, then then I would contend if if we have to follow an objective standard, which is the only thing that makes sense, then we should say, well, what's the best objective standard? And I understand there's different ways we can measure that, but I would say that the easiest way to measure an objective standard is let's just compare the heroes. Yeah. Right? Right. Like who's the hero of Christianity? Who's the hero of the Quran? Who's the hero of the Torah? And for Jews, they might say Abraham or Moses or David. Uh for Christians, obviously it's Jesus. For for Muslims, it's Muhammad. Okay, well, this isn't a real hard comparison. That's right. Right? When Muhammad says that you should kill your enemies, right? He's okay with enslaving people. You can take multiple brides and child brides and like go down the list and you compare it to Jesus. Well, this isn't a very hard comparison. That's right. Right? One of these is clearly a higher and different position than the other. And I say this because most people haven't had to critically think through how am I determining right and wrong? Because subjective is never gonna work. Collective doesn't make a lot of sense because we can all agree on something that's really stupid. And later on we can look back and go, that was really dumb. Yes, it was. You need an objective standard beyond yourself you can point to. And there's no greater moral teacher than Jesus. And I say this because most people haven't thought through this. And I know that while you were in the legislature, because you do not just come from a background having a lot of pastors in your family, but you have the heart to want to minister wherever God puts you. So I know you had a lot of conversations with people along the way in the state legislature and of course in many other places as well. So can you think of any moments or conversations? And we don't have to say names because we don't need to, you know, put people on the record, although that's right. We could talk about that off record. Um, but can you think of moments when you were helping guide someone? Because you say sometimes like light bulb comes on for them. What were some of those issues or moments where they go, man, I never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Yeah, I'd I'd say one of the biggest ones was the transgender issue. Um, when we started talking to our colleagues about, I had a bill in 2021 that said you couldn't perform any gender modification surgeries on anyone younger than 18, right? When you're older, if that's what you want to do, um, you know, you know, adults have the ability to do that. But kids don't understand the ramifications of those decisions at that point. Right. And there's so many things we do not allow kids younger than 18 to do, whether it's get a tattoo, whether it's get pierced, you know, whatever it is, but we're going to allow them to do irreparable surgeries that are gonna, you know, have effects for the rest of their lives. They they can't understand that. So we had a bill, you can't do that. And it was interesting. I would talk to so many opponents of those of that idea because they'd been taught, you can't tell a kid that, you know, that's their own own truth. That's what they uh identify as. We need to let them do that. If you don't, then they're going to commit suicide. You know, they they were bullied into and scared into that. Um, and so they were told all these things, you have to affirm it. You have to love. That's the loving, caring thing. And I started walking them through uh on both sides of the aisle, people who started off like, oh, we we we can't touch that. I was like, Do you understand really what's happening? We'd walk them through uh, you know, to really feel like they're the gender that they want to be. It's gonna take them about 40 to 41 surgeries, right? And think about you wake up from your first surgery and your third surgery and your 18th surgery and your 22nd, and you still don't feel that. Of course, that's gonna drive drive you to have mental anguish and you know, mental issues. And so they finally started getting like, oh, it's not the loving thing to affirm it, it's the loving thing to make sure they never go down that road in the first place. Because we said studies show about 85 to 90 percent of kids who have gender dysphoria, if you just let them progress naturally through puberty, they'll end up identifying with their birth sex, with their birth gender, right? And so, why lead them into a lifestyle that's gonna make them so much more likely to have mental issues, to commit suicide? That's not the loving thing to do. And so they find that was one of the issues that the light bulb came on. Like, oh, that's actually not the loving thing to do, um, is to affirm them. It's to make sure they don't go down that road in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Well, and it seems silly too. Someone who has uh now grown children, but you you had a lot of kids you raised. I have young kids right now, and vividly remember not very long ago when my now seven-year-old would pretend to be a cat at the dinner table. And I'm like, you're not a cat, right? Stop like pretending like you're licking and cleaning your like stop being a cat. Kids imagine themselves being all kinds of things. Oh, that's right. It doesn't mean we should support the delusion of what they think, and this is what's crazy to me is it actually the Babylon B are so good, so good, so often. Um, but they had a deal, right, about loving parent agrees with child to you know, pluck out eye and cut off legs, they can be a pirate, right? And you're like, that would be so stupid. And yet, this is in reality kind of what's been happening is instead of telling kids, hey, that's not who you are, right? That you're somebody different, instead of actually being the parent and parenting and leading a child, we're saying, Oh no, however they feel, we got to support it. Which is again, as someone who has raised many kids, I can imagine a lot of your microphone struggles. Yeah. I can imagine a lot of your day was filled with telling kids, hey, stop, don't do that. Like that's your role as a parent is to teach, to coach, to train, to correct when they are wrong instead of affirm something that is incorrect about them.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

And one of the most shocking parts to me is you'd have people in the faith community, uh, church-going people, people who profess Christianity, giving into this delusion as well. And I would be like, Did you not read Psalm 139? You know, God created fearfully and wonderfully that child, He knit that child together in your womb. And now you're going to say somehow God made a mistake or He's putting this in them to where they're not the right gender.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Well, and especially too when we consider that the vast majority of Americans self-identify as Christians. Yeah. And so when you have the majority of a nation that is Christian and they're rejecting basic biblical truth, one of the things that uh we often think, and and you and I have talked about many times, is a lot of our cultural problems are really an indictment on the church for not having taught basic biblical truth, for not having discipled people and what the Bible actually teaches. And one of the things I would contend is that as a Christian, if you've been a Christian for longer than like three years, you really don't have a good excuse. And I say this with love. So for everybody listening, I'm saying this with love, right? But if you've been a Christian for longer than three years, you don't have a good excuse to be confused on an issue that's not confusing in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Right? Because it's one thing. If you just you just got here and you're like, I don't really know what we're doing yet. I'm just kind of learning right now. But if you've been here very long, and again, this is an indictment on pastors because so many pastors, the message they teach is uh Jesus loves you and and and faith and grace and joy, and those are incredible things. And every Christian should have those like seared, locked in their heart. We need to know those things. But that's not all the Bible talks about. That's right. And there's there's so much that gets left out along the way.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

And and scripture is very clear, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So the God of the Old Testament is still the same God of today, right? And I think so many of our churches and our faith communities just focus on the New Testament that they've completely forgotten the Old Testament, which does not give you a clear picture of who God is. And so if you're in a church, if you're in a place that's not also studying the Old Testament and the full word of God, um I'd I'd encourage you to go to someplace that is because there's a reason there's 66 books in the Bible. We don't just have the 27 New Testament books, those other 39 are instructive for us. And as 2 Timothy said, all scripture is instructive for exhortation, for teaching and accountability. And so you're right, uh biblical illiteracy, I think, is one of the uh biggest failings we have in our country today. And it's the church's fault. I remember hearing from wall builders for the first time, Charles Finney, in his words in the second great awakening, he said, Hey, if there's decay in our in our uh in our legislature, if there's decay in our world and our culture, it's the church's fault. And so I 100% agree with you. Look at the moral ills of the society. The church has got have got their work cut out for them.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Okay, so let's back up. So you're in the state legislature for more than a decade. What what in your mind tells you, okay, doors closing, new direction for me. How does that transition happen?

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah, so uh we have five kids at this point, and I like my kids and I like my wife, and I want to be with them. And the longer you're in the legislature, the more responsibilities you had. So I was down in Austin a lot more. I was, you know, much more involved with writing bills, uh, make putting groups together, getting uh different like-minded groups to get bills passed on on bills we care about and all those. So I started to spend a lot more time in Austin, and our kids started getting older. And so our son was hitting that age, about I don't know, 14, 15 years old. And I was like, man, we only got about four more years left with this kid in the house. And so my wife and I both thought, you know, it's probably time to get home and and really invest in them because you can always do legislative stuff. You can't always have the kids at home. In fact, I I read a study the other day that you spend 90% of the time with your kids by the time they're 18, and then they go off and, you know, do whatever. Um, and so that really hit home. And so we thought, all right, Lord, uh, we spent a decade in the Texas house. We've done our service. Um, what's next? And so we felt more of a call to be home and closer. And so I ran for something that was in our home county um uh after my service. And so that's what kind of brought us home the realization that time is short, our kids need us, we want to be with those kids and pour into them before they go off and and you know tackle the world.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

So you are now a county commissioner in Fort Worth, but you're also working for First Liberty and you're helping spearhead an initiative. And I know this because you and I get to travel together sometimes, uh, go to state legislatures and testify on some history and tradition of the nation. And that matters because there's been some recent Supreme Court decisions that have changed the entire landscape and created opportunities that legally were not really afforded to us for decades. So walk us through some of that story.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah, so in 2022, most people know the case, I think, of Joe Kennedy. Uh, and if you haven't, go look him up. An incredible uh guy, a high school football coach who just wanted to kneel to 50-yard line after each game and thank God for giving him the opportunity to do this. School district said you can't, said it's a violation of the constitution, which is incredible to think a coach after a game on a football field could not kneel and pray and thank God for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

To clarify, he was, I think, praying silently. Silently by himself. So it's not even like he's leading everybody join me in prayer. That's right. He was like taking a Tim Tebow knee, which ironically, had he taken the Colin Kaepernick knee, nobody would have had a problem.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

That is very ironic.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

So he's taking a knee, he lowers his head to pray. Nobody can hear anything he's saying. No, the football game is already over. And he was a Marine, and so he fought for freedom for this nation. And so he's just now following up on some of the freedom that he had personally fought for in this nation. He bows his head, is not even talking out loud. That's right. And I I think I remember part of the story was the way that even the school administration found out it wasn't somebody complaining, right? And I correct me if I'm getting this wrong. I think it was a parent that was sending in a letter saying, I am grateful for somebody setting a good example for the kids. That's right. Wasn't that part of what happened?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, it came, uh it brought was brought to their attention in a positive way that they quickly turned into a negative. So, and they said you can't do that. Had this whole long ordeal, uh, got fired. So he came to First Liberty and said, Hey, I feel like I should be able to do this. And First Liberty is like, Yeah, you should absolutely be able to do this. So it took many years, some losses at some lower courts, but got to the Supreme Court in 2022, vindicated his rights, said you can absolutely do that, which was very important. But almost even more important than that opinion is they said this test, this lemon test, which we've historically used to decide if something's uh constitutionally permissible from a public display of religion is permissible or not, that's outlived its purpose. We're gonna get rid of the lemon test, which had been used, as Kelly Shackleford likes to remind people, about six to seven thousand times since 1971 to prohibit public displays of religion. And now we're gonna go to this history and tradition test, which we're like, okay, that sounds good, but it's a huge seismic shift in constitutional law that allows us to do things we have not been able to do since the 1970s.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

And to be clear on this, for people that might not know some of the history, America was built on a biblical foundation unequivocally. Uh, the Bible was part of early education. And so you have the Bible in schools, literally the first education law passed in America, 1647, the Luther Satan Act. And it was so that kids would learn to read the Bible. That's literally why we started schools in America. So the Bible was always part of education. It wasn't until the 1960s, in 1962 and 63, when the US Supreme Court said, no more prayer, no more Bible in schools. And because we'd always had prayer and Bible in schools, there was a lot of questions of, well, what is going on? And then there were other challenges to public expressions. And so the Supreme Court in 1971 finally said, okay, to alleviate the confusion of what people can and can't do, we were gonna give you a test. And if it doesn't pass a test, you can't do it. It was called the Lemon Test, which is what you referenced, and it was a three-pronged test, uh, and not to oversimplify it, but this is, I think, the easiest way to understand it. They essentially said that you cannot do any religious activity or expression unless you can prove you're doing it for secular purposes. Yeah, that's exactly right. Which you're like, now wait a second, what religious activity or expression, right? Am I doing for secular purposes? It's crazy. But this is also what led to them saying, so no more nativity scenes in public, uh, and no more uh Christmas events and pageants in schools, no more Ten Commandment displays.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

I mean, literally, no more prayer uh graduations, high school, public school graduations. You look at all these things, all these public displays of religion that we kind of took for granted in America because we were built on a Christian foundation, and they were kind of systematically taken from us uh for three or four decades in a row.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

So, in the Coach Kennedy decision, not only is it incredible that he is vindicated, that's right, uh, but the fact that the Supreme Court says, look, what's been going on for now 51 years has been one of the worst takes on the First Amendment there ever was. And so we are vacating that Lemon decision, meaning essentially they're overturning it, and it can never be used going forward as any precedent. So all of the things then that we've been told for 51 years we couldn't do based on the Lemon decision, well, if Lemon's overturned, and that was the only reason we couldn't do certain things, now there's so many things we can restore that have been taken away. And so that's actually part of a new initiative that you are helping spearhead for first liberty.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

That's exactly right. So uh Kelly Shackleford thought, okay, like you said, why don't we restore the faith that we used to have in America all these ways? So we called it restoring faith in America. And so now we're going back into all these places where monuments have been taken down, where Ten Commandments have been taken off the walls, where prayers have been not allowed in certain governmental functions, and we're trying to get that back into everywhere. And so uh once they so the Supreme Court now calls it a history and tradition test, which is perfect for wall builders, right? You're like, oh boy, we've got material upon material for you. And so wall builders in First of Liberty have joined together and said, hey, where we can go back and instruct these state legislatures on the history and tradition of putting the Ten Commandments up in schoolhouse walls. You right now our our reflex is, oh, you you can't put the Ten Commandments up in a in a public school. That's not allowed. Well, up until 1980, you could. And the only reason you couldn't after 1980 was because of the Lemon test. So now that that's gone, you should be able to do that. But I think so many times we think we're doing something radical. No, we're just trying to restore the foundations of what we had for 200 years in America. The status quo in America was public displays of religion, are perfectly fine. We got away from that for about 40 years, but now we're trying to get back to that. So, first Liberty has this Restoring Faith in America project, and it's been neat to see because it's not a top-down approach. We're not trying to get it necessarily from the governors and the state legislatures. We want everybody in every community to restore faith in America where they can. Can they put up a Ten Commandments outside their county courthouse? Can they put uh prayer back into before their school board meetings? Can they put the Ten Commandments up in their schools? This is something that can be very grassroots driven, very citizen driven. And we're encouraging everybody to do it as as much as they can where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

And it's worth noting that not only should people do this, but if they do it, they can expect some opposition along the way. We're already seeing that where states that have have uh done Ten Commandments laws and tried to put them up where there are district courts or a court of appeals that are going, ah, we don't think you can do that. The irony is that some of these attorneys arguing against it, they're still citing women. 100%. Which Supreme Court has already said is vacate, it's overturned, it's vacated. You can't use that anymore. But the reason I say this is because as people are now advocating and should for restoring faith in some of these basic areas, and not only is there a long history and tradition, and and even to back up, there's so many levels of irony. When the Supreme Court said that it is inappropriate for the Ten Commandments to be displayed in a public school, literally in the Supreme Court room. Yeah, Moses is upholding the Ten Commandments on the back of their doors are two tablets of the Ten Commandments. Moses is actually displayed, and the Ten Commandments are displayed more in Washington, D.C. than George Washington is. That's right. Right? Like, it is nuts that you're saying this. So, like if students aren't allowed to see the Ten Commandments and we can't take any school trips to Washington, D.C. Because they're gonna see Moses and the Ten Commandments. All it's it's literally in the U.S. Capitol, it's in the Library of Congress, the Supreme Court building, it's all over the place. But I say this because most people don't recognize the hypocrisy or the historical and accuracy of the claims. And so if you say, hey, I want to open city council with prayer, I want to open a school board meeting with prayer, and they go, separation of church and state, like you can't do that. There is very likely going to be some pushback if people try to restore these things. But that is literally why first liberty exists. So, Matt, if they're trying to do this and somebody says, you can't do that, what is their next step?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Yeah, call first liberty. Let us know, like saying, hey, we're we're trying to do this. First of all, because of the way our court systems are set up and the federal courts and the courts of appeal, there's probably things that you can do in Texas, Mississippi, and Louisiana that you couldn't do in Oregon, Washington, state, and California. So before you do something, call First Liberty and we'll help you say, hey, you probably can't do this, but you can do this. Uh, you need to do it in this way or you need to help here. So we'd love to walk you through that. But let First Liberty know we live to litigate things like this. In fact, as a Terrant County commissioner, uh, the first thing I did was move to put a Ten Commandments monument outside of our county courthouse. And so we did that and we had a dedication ceremony that you spoke at, that Kelly Shackleford spoke at. But not long after we did that, the Freedom from Religion Foundation wrote us a letter saying this is unconstitutional, this is a violation of separation of church and state, you need to take it down and donate it and have a private uh person do it. So we called up First Liberty. We retained them as our legal counsel and we said, why don't you respond for us? And they sent back this treatise on the constitutionality of exactly what we had done. And so um it's perfectly constitutional. You're allowed to do that, all these things that you can do. And so call First Liberty because we'd love to come alongside you and help you navigate this to make sure that you're restoring faith in America in your community. They do it free of charge. Again, they're 11 or 0 at the Supreme Court. They are the nation's leading experts on this one subject matter, and so you couldn't have anybody better helping you or leading you or guiding you or consulting you on this. Uh, First Liberty wants to do that, so call them.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

And you literally have a website, Restoring Faith in America.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

That's right. Dedicated to this purpose. That's right. If you go to rfia.org, restoring faith in America, rfi aorg, you can see how you can restore faith in your community. They highlight something different every month. There's different avenues to do. Andrea Justice is kind of the grassroots coordinator. She does a fantastic job. So you can absolutely do that. And it just empowers you, right? I think it's good for people to know we can do this and I can be a part of that effort. And uh, we always talk about building that wall in Jerusalem, right? When Nehemiah went back to build that wall, they didn't just say, hey, let's go build a wall and go. He said, I want your family to go there. I want your family to do this, I want you to take this part of the wall, you to take that part of the wall. And by everybody focusing on what they could do, they were able to build a wall in 52 days. Um, in America, we can rebuild the foundations of America by everybody doing what they can do. You don't have to worry about saving the country, just work on your community and do what you can do there.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, where Nehemiah says, just come live in the city and then focus on the area behind your house. If every church would say, I'm gonna take care of my community, all of a sudden every community is taken care of, and we've solved most of the national problems just by taking care of the local area. So that message of Nehemiah, obviously, uh organization wall builders taken from that story is kind of a big deal in our mind. Um, but but Matt, as as we have navigated through some of your story, and obviously there's so many God moments along the way, uh, so many victories that God has given you at the state legislature level, and even now what you're doing uh as a county commissioner, you've had a lot of battles. But for for Christians that are out there that are hearing some of this, I think probably for people that follow wall builders very much, they have heard and maybe get a little bit of the vision of like we need to be the Nehemiah's and go rebuild this thing. Right. What are the best ways for Christians to get involved? And maybe for some people that are kind of their eyes are being opened, but they're still a little hesitant. Like, yeah, I'm not sure what I should do. And should I is that too much? What would be your encouragement uh for Christians to get involved? And then what would be your encouragement of what they can do as active participants? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Well, and so for the people who are initially hesitant to me, when they come and talk to me and say, I don't know if I want to get involved, politics is dirty, politics seems kind of tainted. I don't know if I want to get involved in that. It's not a biblical uh proverb, but I think it's a good one. I mean, it was Pericles who said, you may not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you. So you are going to be affected by what goes on politically around you at the local level, at the state level, and the federal level. But what I also tell people is you're focused on the president, you're focused on the U.S. Senate. Well, most of the day-to-day impact on your life is by your local governments. And so I would encourage everybody to get to know who your local government officials are. That's that's number one. It's hard to get mad or change anything if you don't know who the change makers are. So get to know who your city council, your mayor, your school board members, your county commissioners are in your area. Get to know them and uh research them. If you like what they're doing, offer to help them out in their next election. So you can kind of see the process, you see what goes into it, you can really see the man or the woman behind the scenes. Get involved in that. They always need door knockers, they always need phone callers, they always need people to show up to their events. So get involved in a uh campaign. If you don't like what that person stands for, start looking for somebody who might be willing to run against them so you can support that person. Because it does no good to continue to rail against somebody if you're never offering a viable alternative or a solution, right? So, um, and you might think, well, nobody's going to do that. Well, maybe that should be you, right? Um, maybe the Lord's putting that in your heart. And I always tell people, you can't be afraid to fail in politics, right? Because in God's economy, if he's truly sovereign, if he's in control, he's already got that mapped out, right? That's why I kind of go into elections. I want to win, I work hard to win, but I know if God wants me back, I'm going to be back. If God doesn't want me to win, I'm not going to win. And that frees you up in the political sphere, just having that perspective of God's sovereignty. So get to know who your elected officials are. Figure out how you can help them or go sit down with them and talk with them, get to know them. You should be able to do that. And then if you don't like it, what's going on? Get involved yourself. Maybe that is running for office, maybe that's supporting people who are, but you can have an outsized influence on your elected officials in your area because there's so many people that don't get involved, that don't vote. And make sure you vote in every election. I know it seems kind of trite or seems kind of elementary, but you'd be shocked at the number of people who don't turn out to vote for your local elections that are incredibly important. So vote in your elections, get to know your elected officials, and get active in helping them or finding somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Okay, but Matt, I mean, what if I live in a place like my vote's not gonna matter? Why I why should I go vote if I already know we're not gonna win or it's corrupt or both sides, right, are swampy. Like, I why should I even vote? It doesn't matter if I vote.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Well, if you truly believe in a sovereign God, then none of our votes mo uh not none of our votes really count because he's the one who sets up kings and he's the one who puts them down. So if that's gonna be your mentality, then uh you're always gonna have an excuse. But God doesn't call you, and we always say this all the time, duty is ours, results are God's, right? Your duty isn't to make sure that your candidate wins. Your duty is to exercise your civic responsibility every time you have that ability to do that. And we always talk about the men who stormed Normandy, the people who took up arms in the Civil War. They all fought so that you could continue to have a voice in your elections and what's going on around you. And so to say my vote doesn't count, it always counts because you're exercising your civic responsibility. Um, it may not sway the election, but your job isn't to sway the election. Your job is to do your duty.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

And one of the messages from the gospel is that we have the uh multiple accounts of a master leaving on a journey and giving responsibility to those behind. And there's a stewardship thought. And the reason it matters is you can see this in Luke 19, Matthew 25, easy examples. When the master returns and calls them to account, the ones that did a good job stewarding what they were given, he says, Well done, good and faithful servant. He didn't say well done, good and successful.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Right now, this is again this is a big deal. That's right. They were faithful, not always successful. That's right. And if we are looking just to be always winners, you're gonna be disappointed. That's right. A lot in life. That's right. But if your goal is to be successful, that's very different. And also recognizing that if God has called us, excuse me, the goal is faithfulness, not successfulness. If it, but if we recognize God's called us to be faithful, okay, so think about Noah building that ark, right? Year after year after decade after decade.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

That dude wasn't having no victories.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

But ultimately he won in the end. And we have to shift our perspective sometimes that you have to be faithful day in and day out to do what God's called you to do, and part of the stewardship God has given us, especially in a constitutional republic that a founding fathers created, where we the people are in charge. We're actually the kings of America. Yeah, that's right. Right? We're the ones in charge. And so if we are negligent in our duty, then all we are doing is ceding the influence and power to somebody else. That's right. And if Christians don't get involved, that means the people that are impacting the morality are not gonna come from the Christian perspective, and so it's always gonna be a lesser standard. So even if you were in a place like if you're in this major blue state or city and you're like, it's not gonna matter. Well, God's called you to be faithful.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

And not always successful.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

That's right. And and if you're ever feeling bad about yourself, go read Isaiah, go read Jeremiah, go read some of those prophets that God called to be in service for decades and never saw any victories, right? Because they weren't called to be successful, they were called to be faithful and they were doing exactly what God called them to do. And so we we can do the same thing in our age. Yeah, you may not win elections. Um, now I will say if it's getting that bad, maybe you look at moving to a place where your vote can matter a little bit more, uh, because it may be more advantageous for you in a lot of ways. But yes, always get involved, stay involved because it's not your job to affect outcomes, it's your job to be faithful.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Well, and not to end on a pessimistic note, because I really do think God is on the move. Oh, and there's some incredible things happening right now in the nation. And so there's a lot of opportunities. It doesn't mean there's not conflict, there's not friction. I think we're in the middle of uh not just a revival, but it could be an awakening. And the awakenings were defined by conflict, uh, by opposition. And so that not this is a probably a different podcast conversation, but not to go too far down that road, other than to say that just because there's conflict doesn't mean that God is not moving in significant and incredible ways. And I think he is. So, Matt, to land this plane a little bit for us, what would be an encouragement or a piece of advice you would give for anybody, regardless of age or station, right? Mom, dad, boy, girl, grandma, grandpa, what would be an encouragement you would give them uh as we kind of wrap up our thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Yeah, I I think you look at the area of religious liberty itself, and we have more opportunity and religious liberty than we've had in the last half century, right? And so I know people say things are getting worse than actually things are getting better in this one critical area of religious liberty. And I think it coincides with the fact that maybe there is a revival or an awakening. The more that religious liberty flourishes, the more that we have the ability uh to get the message of Jesus Christ and him being the only the way, the truth, and the life and only coming to the Father through him, the more we can get that out there, the more revival has an opportunity to take hold, right? And so the fact that we now have a better climate of religious liberty in America than we've had since the 1950s is pretty exciting. And so it's up to each and every one of us to uh make good on that opportunity because it can't just be the politicians, it can't just be the judges, it's got to be everybody in every community saying, Hey, we've got an opportunity. What am I going to do with the window that God has given me? He could have put me and you in any time, in any place, in any era, in any in any country, but he's chosen to put us and our listeners in America at the 250th anniversary where religious liberty is flourishing, giving us an opportunity to do something that maybe no generation has been able to do. That's exciting, but it's only exciting if we take advantage of it. So I'd encourage all the listeners, get active, get involved, make a difference in your community, be that salt, be that light, and uh we'll see what the Lord does with it.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

So good. Okay, last thoughts. Because we come from a biblical foundation and historic organization, two thoughts along those lines. Number one, what's your favorite Bible verse? Number two, who's one of your favorite people from American history?

SPEAKER_00 51:42

Yeah, uh, so favorite Bible verse, Psalm 37, 4, delight yourself in the Lord and He'll give you the desires of your heart. And a lot of people misunderstand that because they think, oh, God's just gonna give me. You got to do the first part first, delight yourself in the Lord. And it's a good accountability to me. Uh, if I'm praying for the desires of my heart, I make got to make sure I'm delighting myself in the Lord and being accountable to him.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

And a lot of times when you're delighting yourself in the Lord, God repositions the posture of your heart.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

The desires of your heart are the ones that he's given you, right? And so you're only going to want to go after those desires that he's given you. So it works really well. And so that's been a great life verse for me. And then I'll tell you one of the guys that I've come to really appreciate in American history is Calvin Coolidge. Um, he's kind of one of our forgotten presidents. We don't talk about him much, but you talk about a guy who lived a life faithfully to the Lord, who lived a life of righteousness and dedication to him, but also once he was in charge, sought to put the principles in place that we all champion of limited government and staying in your lane and all that during very difficult times, but actually made the decisions that actually helped America reverse itself from a Great Depression earlier. Um, Calvin Coolidge is a man of integrity, he's a man of character, and he's a man who did what he said he was going to do. And then he walked away and didn't even run again on another term when he could have. I love that guy. And the more leadership lessons we can learn from him, the better.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

So good. Matt, so grateful for you, man. Thanks for all the things that you are doing, the example that you have given for now decades of getting involved, serving the Lord, having a ministry and just a pulpit in a different area than what a lot of people thought, but clearly incredible influence.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

And thanks for joining me today on the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Thanks for your friendship and your family's friendship, and thank you for what you're doing to restore those foundations as well. We really need it.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

My pleasure. Well, thank you guys for joining us today on the American Story Podcast. As we heard from Matt, as Christians, we should be involved in the local arena. We we need to make sure we show up, and not just that we're trying to be successful, we're faithful. God has called us to be faithful, and oftentimes in our faithfulness, we get to enjoy success, and those are the really sweet moments. But ultimately, God's called us to be a voice, an instrument, a salt and light for him in whatever area that is. But certainly, if your main ministry is not politics, politics should be at least part of what the ministry is you do. Politics are impactful policies. Policies impact people, and people matter to God, so we should care about all of those things that impact those around us. Thank you guys for hanging out with us today on the American Story Podcast.