Finding Unity in a Divided Nation

America continues to wrestle with division, racial tensions, and questions about unity and truth. In this episode of The American Story Podcast, host Tim Barton sits down with Bishop Jim Lowe to discuss how faith, biblical principles, and honest conversations can help bring healing in a divided culture.

Together, they explore the history behind racial tensions in America, the importance of reconciliation, and how the Church can lead with truth, compassion, and unity. Bishop Jim Lowe shares personal insight and practical wisdom on building bridges, restoring relationships, and addressing difficult cultural issues through a biblical worldview.

This conversation challenges believers to rise above division and pursue understanding, grace, and lasting unity.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome to the American Story Podcast. On today's episode, I have someone who's a good friend who is a hero in so many ways, and somebody that you need to know about. His name is Bishop Jim Lowe. He is from Birmingham, Alabama. And a lot of conversations come up more recently about Martin Luther King Jr., a lot of conversation surrounding him. But I want to introduce you someone who not only was there for much of what unfolded with actually some of the riots, he actually was someone when there was a targeted church, a church was actually bombed. He was one of the children in that church. He actually had friends in that church that died in that bombing. And what God has done in his life to take him from a place where he he grew up in a segregated America, and yet he embraced the Christian message of forgiveness, of love, and ends up becoming the pastor, the bishop of a large, significant, influential church. And actually, now he's working in the state, helping state legislators restore a biblical foundation. I am so honored to have him join us today. So, with no further ado, welcome with me, Bishop Jim Lowe. Thank you for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Thank you, Tim. I'm glad to be with you today. Glad to be here today. To be able to share whatever I can share.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Well, I I am honored to have you. Our family has known you now for uh a decade plus, I don't know, 15 plus years, whatever that is. And and we really consider you a friend, uh somebody that we have uh grown to love, we look up to, and and so we know a lot of your story, but but I know for the audience that your story is one that is although recorded, is probably not widely known by our audience. So will you back up and tell us part of your story, your testimony, starting from a kid, uh where maybe you come to know the Lord, but just take us through some of your journey.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Well, okay, just briefly. Uh I was um, yes, I was raised up. Uh uh I was born in 52, and uh therefore I experienced a lot of the things that were going on as a young child. And in the 60s, I was much more aware because you know, 1963 was uh we had the children's march here in Birmingham. I was uh my mother would not allow me to go out there and march with the kids, but I was able to see a lot of it. Uh I was able, I was a member of the 16th Street Baptist Church, where a lot of the marches would leave, leave, leave from the church and go downtown and march. So I would be there, but she would not let me go out and march with the rest of them. Um I was called to ministry when I was six, and I remember that day very well the Lord spoke to me. And I went and told my mom and dad, but her mother was a preacher also, and she knew how mean people can be the preachers, the trials that they have to go through. And she told me uh at that age uh that the Lord didn't want me to be a preacher, and my daddy said, No, you need to be a doctor, you need to be someone that's gonna make some money. And uh, so I listened to them and I just put on the shelf what I had seen and what I had heard. I let my mother and father tell me what God had said to me. And from that point on, from 6 to about 11, when I was in the bombing, I realized I'd been dealing with the Lord talking to me, but I wouldn't yield because mom and dad said God didn't call you into the ministry, but he was still messing with me. The fact that I survived uh that bombing, I was just a few doors down, uh, well, just actually one room from where the bombing was that killed the four girls, um, and I began to evaluate from the age of 11 what I was truly called to do. It took me until I was 26 to finally give up when I was at a point of ready to take my own life. I had my 357 on my desk, and I was just tired of living, Tim. And I told the Lord, he said, I'm through. I'm through, I can't take it anymore. Because I had chosen a hard way. I went against God. And he said, Well, if you're through with your life, let me have you. And I told him, I said, Well, I don't know what you want me for. Uh, I'll be a minister of music, but I'll never be a pastor. And he never said anymore. Um, and so I I became a minister of music. Ten years later, uh, the church came and asked me to be a pastor. I didn't want to do it. And I said, I'll do it. You got six months. And the church had about 15 people in it. In six months, it had grown to 75 people. And then I had to accept the fact that that's what the Lord was calling me to. Now, and I built that church to over 3,500 members. Um, and we were 3,500 members up until the point uh uh I had met your father. Um he did a he did a uh a capital tour, and I listened to him, and I heard about the founding of this nation. I've heard about our founding fathers and their relationship to God. And because I was raised from a family, my father was historian, it impacted me. And it was almost 10 years after I'd heard your father do this that I was inspired to want to do it. I became involved in community activities. I was encouraging people to run for office and trying to get church members to do it. Oh, I just knew that our government needed to, well, we need to get prayer back in schools, certain things we need to do that I grew up with. And I wanted those things to occur because I wanted this nation to go back to its founding principles. Yes, it had gone astray. Yes, the nation had done some things that were wrong, and yes, we're an imperfect nation, but we were founded on principles that I believe submitted this nation to Almighty God, and that this nation could follow Almighty God if we followed the fundamental principles. Your father kind of said the same thing and enlightened me that what I was believing was really true. And so I came back to Birmingham. I had 3,500 members in my church, and I started teaching them some of the things about the word of God and the government and all and how we need to be involved. And my 3,500 members went down to about a thousand because I was saying that love is what is important. Love is the thing that God has for us. And it doesn't matter whether you're white, black, Hispanic, Asian, that God loves all, and our nation must adhere to his fundamental principles that all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. That among those are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that these were the things that the nation was founded on. I know we had slavery, but that's not what we continue to judge the nation on. We move forward. God has given us love that we are not to keep records. We should move beyond that. We should move this nation beyond the divisiveness that we're currently into right now. We got to move uh beyond biases according to the color of skin. Biases, what political party? Biases that are there for all reasons that we have that separate us. We must unite under the banner of Jesus Christ. For this nation was founded on that. And your dad teaches it. But of course, I'm preaching to the choir when I'm talking to you. But I remember most of all I use 1 Samuel, the the eighth chapter, when the people said, you know, but they, you know, Tim, you're about getting me preaching. Is that what you want me to do? I don't want to, you know. I'm I'm restraining myself because it's your program.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

No, I so Bishop, I I love it. There, there's I I want you to keep going, but you've said so many things I want to unpack for just a little bit. Um, but I I didn't want to slow down your momentum of telling the story. But you fired me up.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Look, I'm an activist at heart, okay? And that's what I tell people here. Don't get the activists in me. I grew up with it. I don't believe in sitting silently when injustices are being done. And from the pulpit, I speak against those things. I don't want to see this nation go the wrong way to harm anyone. I believe in the principle of love. And this is what we got to do. We've got to learn to come together, like Martin Luther King said. We've got to learn to come together as brothers, or we will perish as fools. Somebody's got to carry that message. And I feel that it's it's something that when I say somebody, why not me? And why not others? Somebody's got to stand. Well, go ahead and pack what you want in the back.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, so so let me let me start right there. So, as you're saying this, that this is something that should not even be controversial in Christian circles, where Jesus told the disciples that the way people will know that you're actually mine is by love. It's by the way you love one another. Uh Jesus said, Hey, if you love me, keep my commands. Love was a central theme. I mean, we go to 1 John chapter 4. Let us love one another for God is love. And obviously, you know all those things, but there's so much the Bible tells us about love. And yet we also have descriptions of what love is that love is patient, it's it's kind, it doesn't envy, it doesn't boast, it isn't rude, isn't proud, isn't self-seeking. We know all these things. But the reason I bring this up is that your message of love is completely correct. It it shouldn't be convoluted. And yet what happens is there are some people that will take this idea of love and yet they will distort biblical standards of truth to morality and say, well, if you love someone, you should allow them to do whatever they want. So if a boy wants to be a girl and go in a girl's bathroom, you should just love them and let them do it. And the reality is that's not how the Bible describes love. Love is not blindly accepting immoral behavior, bad decisions that will have negative repercussions on the individual and society. No, at times, the Bible tells us a father disciplines a son he loves. And I'm saying this because I know, Bishop, one of the things that you've had to encounter is as you stood up in love for truth, sometimes the truth that you are standing for has caused offense for people, even though you've done it all in love. Will you speak to that a little bit? Just as a pastor, how as Christians do we walk in love, which should help unify the body, and yet we're standing for truth. And at times truth can actually divide, where it's almost like a wheat and shaft reality that, right? The Bible says that God divides the sheep and the goats, because one of those groups embraced truth and one rejected truth. So, how do you see the balance of walking in love while still standing for speaking and defending truth?

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Well, the first thing we have to recognize is that God is love. Okay? God is love. So if God is love, then the definition of love comes from who he is and from what he says. Love is God, God is love. So when God says something in his word, he speaks in love. When God said that he created them male and female, that's love creating them in his image as male and female. Anything apart from what God says is not love. And we must come under the understanding that if God is love, then his word is love. His word is truth, and we must abide by his word and his truth, and not according to what I feel or what I think or what I see or or or what anyone else says to me. The word of God is truth, and that is love. Now, I can tell you, uh, there was a period of time and I was challenged by it. The message on the day of that bombing was a love that forgives. And I, because I had not fully accepted the call in the ministry when I was 11 years old, um, I had some anger in my heart. Look, there were there were people I knew that were murdered that day. And it was murdered by, let me just be blunt, by segregationist white people. And, you know, I was raised up in a community where I was hearing all these things about how low down, how racist, how evil white people were. And I heard those things. And because I was searching for the Lord, I was searching for truth. So I heard so much. I saw segregation, I saw racism, I experienced it. But as I dealt with that, and I said at one point, I was ready to take my own life because I was carrying the burden of all of this pent-up anger and things that were inside of me that I was feeling because I'd seen the injustices. And I had been told, even after I had learned more about Christ, that I was a child of God. And this is coming from a school out there in Texas, uh, Dallas Baptist University. I went to school there, my first integrated environment. They taught me about Jesus. They taught me how not just come into church, but have a relationship. I learned a relationship with God, with Christ, and I came to know him. And then one of the young girls that was there, as I was going to revivals, this is the Jesus movement, going to revivals, she came to me, she said, I asked my mother and father, could I date you? Because you're a fine young man. And I said, Well, what did they say? Well, I can't do that because you're black. And black people and white people shouldn't come together. So then I was faced with the racist attitude coming from Christians that I thought were my brothers and sisters. I asked other students and they said, Oh no, this should not occur. And you know what I felt then? The anger that I had felt before that I was beginning to get over, it came back up, and I went back over to the dorm and I went down there where the black Muslims were, and I said, Okay, Asamayum. You know, white folk ain't nothing but demons. I'm studying the Quran a few weeks later, and I'm trying finally when I got my hands on one, and and the Lord said to me, What are you doing? I said, I'm searching for you. I'm searching for you. And he said, Have you read the Bible? And you know what, Tim? I'd never read the Bible. I had listened to what white folk told me, I listened to what preachers told me. And then so I went into a study of the Bible. Because they taught me to know Jesus for yourself. I began to have a personal relationship, which made me see things differently than everybody else. And I do believe that today most people don't read the Bible. Most people listen to what somebody else tells them, and their truth comes from what others say. Truth should not be what a man says, truth should be what God says. What they taught me in my first integrated environment was true. That we must come to know the Lord for ourselves. And coming to know him from his word, uncompromisingly from his word, then you understand love. It doesn't matter your denomination, doesn't matter what your background, your economic background, it doesn't matter. If you know Jesus, Tim, you're my brother. If you know Jesus, you're my sister. If you know Jesus, then we ought to love one another because we've been commanded to do it. Yeah. And it must be something we work toward, to owe no man nothing but to love them. And we must practice it because as we practice, then God declares us righteous as we practice righteousness.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah. Well, it's like the Apostle Paul said that we are all one in Christ, for in Christ there there is no Jew, no Greek, no Scythian, no slave, no free, right? Not even male and female. We are all one in Christ. And so uh you're absolutely right. I I want to back up though, because I've heard you say this now a couple of times in this conversation, uh, and we've talked about this before. But you were six years old when you felt like you heard from God, you're supposed to be a pastor. But I also think it's interesting because you said really, you you didn't have a personal relationship with him until later on when somebody really was teaching you that you can know Jesus personally. So it reminds me a little bit when you're young, maybe of like Samuel with Eli, which for those that that that are listening, right? Samuel uh was born to a family, his mom wasn't gonna have kids, and this is this whole miracle that he's born, and then she promises God that if you give me a son, I'm gonna dedicate him to you. So he goes to the temple to serve for Eli, who's the priest. And Samuel hears a voice one night calling out to him, and he thinks it's Eli calling him. So he gets up and he goes and says, Here I am. And Eli said, I didn't call you, go back to bed. And this goes on a couple times, and Eli finally realizes, oh, you must be hearing God's voice. And so Eli then tells him, Hey, the next time you hear this voice, say, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. And it really introduces Samuel into having this relationship with the Lord. But I say all of this because you are someone who very clearly you believe you heard God tell you something. And this is not the only time you heard God tell you something. But I'm saying all of this for context because I think there's people listening right now that might go, you know, I don't know if I've ever heard God speak to me. And like you had a clear calling on your life from six, and you had to navigate what that looked like before you finally in your own mind submitted to that calling? What would you say for people listening? And maybe by the way, that could be kids listening, right? We have there's families that will listen to this and and watch this together. And so there might be kids right now that are watching this that Bishop Lowe, if if whether this is a parent, grandparent working with kids, or maybe it's a kid listening, what would you say to people about hearing and recognizing God's voice and and then maybe following through on what God tells them?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Fundamentally, he said, if you seek me with all your heart, you will find me. And what I had to do is because I heard the voice, but mom and dad said, No, I listened to others. You have to seek the Lord, and you find him in his word, you have to become aware of his ways and not just his works. Study to show yourself approved under God. I had to do that. The more I've studied the word, the more I know I've come to know him, that I can trust the inner voice, that it's not me, it's not what others have said, and all throughout my life, up to a certain point, as we all are, we tend to listen to what other people tell us God is about. So I would suggest if someone is looking to hear from the Lord, then get in his word, study his word, he speaks from his word, his word is God. So as you communicate with that word, studying the word, he will speak to you. And when you pray, pray from the scripture, pray, read the scripture, and then pray and shut up and let him speak at that still, small voice, and he will reveal himself to you because him he loves us more than anyone could ever love us. Again, because God is love and we're created in his image, then we must endeavor to do all we can to love one another, even with our differences.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

It's so good. So, speaking of love, the the morning of the bombing, when you were 11 years old, you were in a Sunday school class, and your class was right next door to the class where the bomb went off. Um, you and I have talked about this before. Um, one of the girls who was murdered that morning was someone that was, in essence, like your girlfriend. Um so I remember in that conversation, and again, I've heard you talk about this before, but I I want to unpack this a little bit for everybody watching and listening to us today. That the message that morning was a love that forgives. And uh I I think about this a little bit like in the modern context. Uh, if if you had a chance to watch part of the uh Charlie Kirk Memorial when Erica Kirk gets up to speak and she talks about the man that that man that murdered my husband, and she says, I forgive him. That that is an incredibly challenging thing to do. And obviously, for Erica, her her husband was targeted because, in essence, of him holding biblical positions. Uh, and and at the time, when you're 11, your church was targeted just because y'all were black people living in America. Right. How did you process? The uh obviously you have, but how did you process what was that journey like for you? To move into recognizing that that that the way the adage, this the saying goes that forgiveness is setting a prisoner free only to realize the prisoner was you. When you walk in unforgiveness, you are the one carrying the burden. It doesn't penalize the person that did evil to you, it doesn't do them any disservice for you to carry that burden. That's something that the devil wants you to walk in unforgiveness, because then you have to carry that emotional mental frustration and weight. What was your journey to forgiveness? And maybe what is it still today? Is it still something that you have to wake up every day thinking? And what does that look like for you? How did it start and how is it going today?

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Well, let's remember that the bombing as that occurred, yeah, that was impactive on me. Oh, I didn't know how to process it. For me, there were no counselors. We were expected to go to school the next day. That was a Sunday. We expected to go to school. My mom and dad did not force me or my two sisters to go that next day. And remember, my two sisters were there. So all the processing of this, and then that there were two young black boys that were murdered that evening, too. I had to grow up recognizing, and let me be blunt, that white people were going around killing black folk. And they were for no reason at all. I had to deal with that. I had to process that. I had to recognize that there were things that I would do, places I couldn't go, because there would be attitudes. Right. And I had to deal with that. And so remember, I told you that years later, when I've given up on my life, it's because I was carrying the burden of all this angst, this attitude. You couldn't tell me when I started studying Islam, talking about white uh uh black Islam, you know, under, and I can't get beyond it, the honorable Elijah Muhammad, because that's what I knew of as he was as he was, I saw all of this. I could read the history. But that anger, that that feeling of hatred to what white people did, it was a burden that I was carrying. And then when I started studying the word and understanding more, that these divisions that we make are absolutely nothing but of the devil. Right. And he came to steal, to kill, and destroy, to put these impressions to make me look at you as different because you're white, you know, or because of color or economics. Those are things that destroy us. Yeah, it keeps us alive. It was doing it to me. I was ready to commit suicide. I there was another person I knew uh when I was younger that killed himself and left a note. He didn't want to live in a world with white people the way they were. That was something I remember that. And I was contemplating the same thing because of the evilness was there. But it's not white people, it's not black people, it's not Asian, it's Satan. And we are blinded and we're being we are blinded from seeing the real enemy because the Bible says we wrestle not against flesh and blood. And too many people, even this day, we put too much emphasis on race, we put too much emphasis on these people are being mistreated because of their race. No, it's because Satan is alive and well, and he is trying to destroy, and he destroys it with this anger and hatred that we have, and we see so much of it today. Today we need to turn back to the word of God. Today we need pastors and ministers to be in the pulpit to preach the truth, not the woke truth, but the truth that gets people to be awake to what God is coming back, and He will hold us all accountable. And that's what I endeavor to try to do today. That's the reason I've gone down to my state house. I go down there with both sides of the aisle, the Republicans and the Democrats. And that's what happened when I came up with the chaplain bill that I got again from associating with you and your dad. But that's another story. Take me where you want me to go.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah, I mean, Bishop, I do want to go there, uh, but I want to save that for a minute because I I want to I want to have a little bit more of this conversation. One of the things that when we talk about American history, there are people that want to point to really sinful, at times evil, wicked moments of things that happened in America, and they want to say, well, America's evil because of this. And it's it's not to ignore the fact that there was sinful, evil, wicked things that happened in America, but as as we would acknowledge, it's really because of sin. There was a reason Jesus came because we are all sinners in need of a savior. And if we don't acknowledge the ultimate reality of what's broken, then then you're you're discounting the reality of what fixes it, right? If if we don't recognize that what's roke, what's broken in the world is the sinful human nature, then you think politics can solve what politics did not break. Politics can't solve what it didn't break. You need Jesus to solve what sin broke, but obviously politics can help. But this is where I would point out what's so unique about America is that you can pick any atrocity you want in American history. And whether we go back to the witch trials, right, in Massachusetts back in the 1600s, whether you talk about slavery or the Indian land removal or whatever it is, the civil rights era, anytime you pick moments when there were sinful, wicked, evil things that happened in America, that the questions I always want to pose to people is if that evil has stopped in America, and for many of these things it has, I would acknowledge, I think there's still some sinful, wicked, evil things happening. That's a different conversation. But for those moments where there was sinful, wicked, evil things happening, my my two questions are if it's come to an end, how did it end? And who are the people that led the opposition? And I'm saying this because this is just what you said. The reason those things always came to an end is because it was the Christians, the churches, and the pastors led an opposition movement saying this isn't what God wants us to do. And we have to get back to doing what the Bible says. And every time we've overcome those evil things in America, it's been because the church, Christians have gotten involved. And it doesn't mean that every church got on board, it doesn't mean every Christian got on board. We can go back to the Second Great Awakening, which goes from the 1790s to the 1840s, maybe 1850. And in the midst of the Second Great Awakening, Charles Finney being one of the most noted leaders from the Second Great Awakening, his the height of his ministry was the 1820s and 1830s. It's estimated that more than a hundred thousand people came to Christ during one year of his ministry alone. So this guy was incredible, influential, major impact in America. In the height of his ministry, every single major denomination in America split over the issue of slavery. And I'm saying this because a lot of times we think that in the midst of a major move of God, that that automatically it means there should be incredible unity in America and in the body of Christ. And the reality is, if you go back to the first and second Great Awakening, these were not moments of incredible unity. They were moments of clarity when truth and morality were debated. And ultimately, truth and morality won in the end. And again, the reason that truth and morality prevailed, it's because there were Christians and pastors and churches leading the opposition movement advocating for what the Bible actually says. And so, in the midst of this, as we're looking, because there's obviously everybody watching and listening, we could identify problems in America today, recognize that government cannot solve what government did not break. If we are seeing problems that are coming from sin infiltrating society, then what we need is a church, is believers, is pastors to rise up to help lead a movement to help bring restoration through the gospel to what's been lost in America. Now, I'm saying that for my assessment, but I'm saying it to a bishop, to a spiritual leader. Bishop, what do you think about my analysis?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

I think you're absolutely correct on that. It's the church. Look, I said it a minute ago. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. What we have to recognize is that our enemy is not the person that's sitting on the other side of the aisle there. Our enemy is a principality, power, spiritual wickedness in high places. That's our enemy. And unless I've been enlightened by the word of God, I don't see that. I'm blinded because Satan blinds us with his lies. That's what he does. So I look at you and I try to categorize you. I put you in a category, and then that category, I said, this is the reason why this is done. This comes about because of this. But I've missed the spiritual principle that there are demons and devils that are real. And I have to recognize those. It's not you, it's those spiritual forces that are behind you, and I must move against them, and I move against them in prayer. I go to my God against you by not being against you. I go to my God in love, praying for you, and praying against those spirits that are controlling and manipulating you.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

That's great. So let let me let me go down that line a little bit. I think it's in Galatians where Paul says, if anyone comes to you with a different gospel, even if it's an angel like of light, don't receive something else. I say this because one of the interesting backgrounds where Muhammad uh had his revelation uh that leads to the Islamic faith that leads to the Quran. Um, he was in a cave and initially he actually first told the people about this revelation. He said, I think I just talked to a demon, and later they said, No, probably was an angel, not a demon, but it was some angelic force, whether it's an angel or something demonic, satanic, but it leads to the birth of Islam. And I bring this up because that there is an increase. Some people call it the Islamification of America happening right now, with uh, we can go back to maybe some uh political um help in this measure with when President Biden had more or less an open border for four years, and America has millions upon millions of millions of people coming into America, and now we see an increase of Islam like we've never seen in America. I bring this up because you talked about one of the things that happened when you were really hurt and offended by Christians, and maybe in fairness, a little bit like understandable. Uh, they were treated you very poorly, some racist behavior towards you, and so you're looking for answers. And and you go to Islam. What do you think now? What is your assessment on what we are seeing? Because you you explored Islam for a little bit and you heard the voice of God leading you back to Christianity, back to the Bible, back to faith. What do you think now with what's happening in America with this increase of Islam? And what should the church's response be to this?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

When I my first study was, like I say, the nation of Islam, which was more of anger, hatred toward people. And then uh I think I was led further along the way to Sunni uh Islam. Um and but I didn't get too deep into it because the Holy Spirit pulled me back on that. Now, one of the things with some of the people I was associated with is that he talked about Jesus, God has no sons, God only has slaves. Um and I as I read the Bible, I saw myself being unique, different as a child of God by accepting Jesus Christ. There's so much more revelation in recognizing we are a child of God, we are children of God through Christ Jesus. Islam is an alternative, like all of the other faiths, are alternatives that that lead people away from the Lord, away from what I say is the creator, what I know is the creator, Almighty God. Every religion, every other gospel other than the gospel of Jesus Christ, is not life. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. And if you look at the uh uh the tabernacle in the wilderness, you look at the temple, there was a prescribed way in order to get into the holy of holies. And Jesus said, I am the way. He is the way in order to get into the holy place where God is. If you want to dwell with God Almighty, eternally, there's only one way. Everyone out there right now was created eternally. That's why God said there's going to be death. You will live forever. Whether you will live with God Almighty or not, is whether you accept Jesus Christ or not. You will live eternally, either with Christ or without Him. And only those that have chosen Christ will live with Christ. And all others, wherever they're going to live eternally, it will be without Christ, and that's going to be without Christ who is love, and you will experience all of the wrath of hell and of God being apart from Almighty God. The loving God. Only one God loves enough to make us his children. Only one, and that's so very clearly to as many who believe on him, he gave the right to become children of God. And beloved children of God, I leave you this command that you love one another. That means I'm to love all. Because whether you be of this faith or this faith, my job is still to love you. Whether you be white or black, my job is still to love you. Because that's what my Lord told me to do, because that's what He is, and the more I conform to Him, the more I learn how to love. Christ is the only way. I've learned that. I've been everywhere else. Man, I used to practice witchcraft. I used to, I used to, I used to do astrology, I used to do charts. That's because, again, let me make it blunt. You white people made me turn to all this other stuff because your religion couldn't have been no truth. Because look what you did. But I've come to realize, as Martin Luther King said this too, and the Lord said it, uh, there's none righteous. And even in the best of people, there's some evil in them. And even in the worst of people, there's some good. I should reach out to all mankind to show them the way. That's my job. And I stand on this nation. Though we've done some things that are wrong, injustices have been done. And man, I have seen corruption like I've never seen corruption before. I see it in my city, I see it in my state, I see it in government. And the only reason it's there is because there are not enough men and women who are willing to stand and stand for truth and stand for justice. And I think that if we want to save this nation, we got to get back to the fundamentals, and more people have got to rise up and stand for the fundamentals of the word of God, because that's the only way we're going to save this country.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Well, and bishops, let me let me follow up on that because you are actively helping do this in your state. Uh, you are one of the very unique spiritual leaders that have fully taken this to heart. Uh and maybe you can talk to us even about some of like the Salt and Light Council things you guys have been doing. But I want to highlight that some very cool things have happened this year, and largely because you helped champion them. You you've been going to your state legislature and you've been connecting, making relationships where as a Christian should. We shouldn't be going to yell at people, but instead to connect, to see as a as a spiritual brother, how can I pray for you? How can I lift you up? And God has given you favor, and and because of your tenacity, you have advocated for some things that for the first time are happening in your state. And I say for the first time, if if we went back to when you were a child, uh, you're really restoring it to the way it used to be. But for the first time in decades, 50 years plus, things are going back in the classroom like the Ten Commandments are going back up on school walls. Uh, chaplains are being allowed to come back on school campuses again. Things that would not have been odd back in the 50s or 60s, but have now become very much adverse in our modern understanding. But because of some Supreme Court decisions, there's opportunity to restore a lot of what has been lost and what's been broken. And you have been a leader in doing that. Will you tell us a little bit about your journey, getting involved in the political arena, which I know for a lot of people, they still are in the impression, well, wait, you have to separate church and state, and pastors shouldn't be involved in government politics. And we can have a whole nother podcast talking about why that's wrong. I think most of our listeners are probably uh at least familiar with the concept that we don't have separate institutions. We don't have secular institutions. Uh God had Moses over the government, he had Aaron over the tabernacle, the temple, what we would know as a church. God had separate institutions, but God was giving them both directives. It was separate, not secular. That was the way the founding fathers intended our government. You are a pastor that's gotten involved in the political arena. Will you tell us about that journey?

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Well, okay. First of all, like I said, about 2003, 2004, uh, I did that Capitol tour. Uh I saw that. And of course, I think it was 2015. Well, I heard uh Glenn Beck on the radio talking about uh I used to listen to him, and well, I still do. Um, but he was talking about he was going to go around and be preaching in churches. And I thought I was remember hearing him, I said, I'd invite him to my church. But there was no way I was gonna encounter him. But through the through long story short, I got a chance to meet him, and uh I told him there was somebody that was inspirational in my life I wanted to meet, and uh, asked if I could, if he, if I anyway knew your father, because your father was impacting me, because I was involved with local, started getting involved with local politicians, uh praying for them, as well as being offered money to do things for them, uh, which I did not accept, but I knew that that was being done.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Now, can I can I stop you right there for a second? Because you've seen, you've seen a little bit like the underbelly of the beast, so to speak, that uh I think a lot of people are becoming more aware of some of the corruption in like every level of government. There's there's always sinful opportunities where people have the choice to do sinful things, but you were someone and and and I know several people that have had these offers, but you are someone that you literally had people offer to make special donations if you would give them your platform to make a political appeal. And we're talking about elected officials, and and I think a lot of Americans, even though we have a concept that there's corruption in government or politics, they don't maybe necessarily understand some of what happened. And so without revealing any names, but can can maybe you just reveal a little bit of maybe like what happened? Where so you were actually offered money if you allowed a political elected official or candidate to come speak from your pulpit, which then gave them some kind of credibility. Was that the idea behind it?

SPEAKER_00 42:57

It has happened, and I know that there have been pastors that have done it. Uh, there's corruption everywhere in this world that we live, it's a sinful world. I think many people, like I, like I was at one time, was naive to all of these things, didn't believe that a lot of the corruption that's there now. Uh there's corruption everywhere. And one of the reasons why we have so much corruption is that we don't have uh us as Christians standing up demanding integrity in government. Uh, and then there are those that do get in position. I would say this all it takes to be a politician is for you to be a good con person. All you gotta do is con the people, have a good word, have some charisma, and people will vote for you. And they vote ignorantly. Somebody has to help them know the truth, and I think that's the responsibility of clergy. We spend uh every we spend 52 weeks with a person at the maximum, but we have uh days out of every week, 52 days out of every week. Every year we have time to influence people, we've got to encourage people of integrity to come forth and people that are going to be uncompromising. Because if we don't, we lose our nation. And clergy have got to get engaged. This separation of church and state, we got one party that doesn't even want to recognize God. That doesn't leave others with but one other opportunity. Where are I'm gonna say I'll hit it? Where are the Democrats that are talking about God? How come we don't hear that? I was raised a Democrat, okay? And I was uh I can't say I'm a Republican because I'm not Democrat or Republican, I'm a child of God. But I want I want to see more Democrats come up and hold the banner of Christ. I don't see them. And they they hide behind political parties and they've allowed the party to go ways that it should not go. What should we do? Right. It takes people of integrity. Yes, I've been offered money. Yes, there have been a lot of things. And going down to the state house, I I used to keep all this quiet. And then I realized who am I to think that I don't need prayer? I told my whole church, pray for me because I don't know which way the devil might come at me. Many people have have gone astray. I could be one of them that could fall and go my own way too. So I asked him to pray. We've got to undergird our politicians, our leaders, our president. We don't need to stop praying for a president because we don't like him. I prayed for Joe Biden. I prayed for Donald Trump. I pray for all of our leaders because God is the authority and he takes the king's heart and he can turn it anyway. It doesn't matter. For those that hate got uh uh what TDS, what's it called? Trump derangement syndrome, pray for this man. God can change him. I had to do that when I was under Bull Connor, when I George Wallace, all of those segregationists, pray for them. George Wallace changed. We can see that people make changes when prayer moves in their life. But instead of doing prayer, we want to go out and be activists marching in the street, blocking traffic, keeping people from getting to their jobs, keeping people from going to the hospital because we want to be heard. The best way to be heard is to first of all go in prayer. And the reason we got where we are today is African-American people, it began in the church. It all began there. Martin Luther King was a preacher. And before they go out on that street, they prayed. Before they went out on that street, they signed a little card of learn that nonviolence and love, they did that. I know this, but that's not where we are today. We've got to return back to the foundations, Tim. And you want me to go to the statehouse and tell you what I've done there?

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Well, let me let me throw out real quick. So, one of the things you just alluded to is there was a for those listening that might not know, I encourage you to look this up. Um, look up the Birmingham uh Ten Commandments for Marching. And in order for you to be part of some of these marches, you had to sign uh the Ten Commandment Pledge. And it's not the Ten Commandments from the Bible, uh, although those are great, uh, you should learn those too. But there was a pledge card you had to sign to keep these 10 more or less commands for everybody. If you're gonna be part of this movement march, you had to do some of these things. And among those was you had to always be peaceful, but you had to read your Bible, you had to pray daily. If you read what's in that march and then contrast it to some of the protests today, you go, man, it it is entirely different values from where it started, that we are trying to be Christian, godly representatives versus today that we are emotionally appealing to be heard. And and sometimes it comes that the modern movement in many ways, there's a lot of Marxist ideology that's been promoted in the midst of it. And so it's far more destructive where the Bible tells us the thief comes to steal, to kill, and destroy. Jesus came and we have life and have it more abundantly. It is a very clear contrast what is going on. But if people haven't seen that that Ten Commandment Pledge, I would encourage you to look up online the Ten Commandment Pledge and read those and just recognize the difference of a movement that was recognizing a faith in Christianity and its origins or its appeal versus where a lot of stuff is today. And and Bishop Lowe, I think um, just as you were kind of alluding to it, I want to make sure that for people that have never heard or seen that before, that they they have an opportunity to see and understand that there was a lot of Christian ideology being presented in what was happening, and whereas today it's a lot more Marxist ideology than Christian ideology in its underpinnings, kind of to your point. But if I can lead you a little bit now, you have been very involved in two important things and many more, but I want to highlight two of them. Uh, there's a Ten Commandment bill, which is now, uh I think 27 states have introduced it, several states have passed it. You were one of the driving factors behind your state bringing the Ten Commandments back to public education. And for anybody listening, that might be triggered. Let me point out the Ten Commandments were part of public schools from the beginning, from literally from the Pilgrims and Puritans up until 1980, the Ten Commandments were part of public school in America. That that is the history and tradition. The Ten Commandments were part of the foundations of all law in the Western Hemisphere, certainly the common law over in England, and absolutely the laws in every one of the colonies in America, the Ten Commandments are part of those laws. So when people argue it's just religious, it is absolutely something that God gave to Moses. So, yes, in that regard, it is religious, but God gave them as government commands, government standards to be upheld. So these are not just Christian things. These are things that are actually functional in the way you run a society, which is how they were used in America. And it's why every kid learned them growing up. And I say that again for any of the people that want to comment in the comment section and be like, you can't have religion back. No, this is a moral standard upon which our nation was founded, and we are returning that moral standard to public schools. And Bishop Lowe, you got to help be a leader in that in Alabama. Will you tell us part of that story?

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Well, okay, like I said, I've been attending uh uh the conference there uh with you all uh every November that you have, and it was, I guess it was two, maybe three Novembers ago, uh three conferences ago, um, as uh I heard they were talking about uh uh school chaplains. Texas actually enacted school chaplains. Um and everybody knows that in the very beginning of when I became pastor, I wanted prayer back into the schools. And back in 88, that was one of the goals. I felt like, is there some way I could be involved with that? Well, at your conference, I saw that they were talking about this is before prayer was opened up at that conference a few years ago, and they had chaplains. And I listened to what was going on in the state of Texas. I happened to inadvertently sit at a table where uh uh Rocky Malloy was, uh, who was one that was responsible for working with the state of Texas, getting chaplains in the school system and his team. I was sitting with them and I wounded up sitting with him and talking to them about it, and I got the B.O. that Texas had. I brought it back to Birmingham. Uh we have a state representative that's a member of my congregation, because those are things that I encourage my congregation to do to engage. I've got a sister running for judgeship now that's in my congregation. Um, but uh, and I gave it to her. I said, Look, I want you, I want to present this uh to try to get, see if we can get along. I'd like for you to carry it. And she looked it over, she thought it was well, and I said, Look, I want to also get, she's Democrat, I want to get a Republican to do it because I want this to be bipartisan. I want us to have, I want us to have chaplains for teachers. We got chaplains in the military, chaplains, police, chaplains in hospitals, chaplains uh uh everywhere, you know, and these chaplains deal with people normally that they don't in, you know, new fresh encounters that they need chaplains. If a person gets hurt uh uh and a policeman's out there and he sees what he sees, someone works with him. Uh, but that's someone that he sees that's that's hurt, and he may get trauma from that. But think of a teacher who can experience trauma. She spends five days with her child, weeks with a child. That something happens to that child. Who counsels that teacher? Who gives her spiritual guidance? And I felt that that was important. And I presented it to a Republican. This was two sessions ago, and I worked it. I went down there about one day out of uh out of uh every week, uh, out of the three-day sessions that they would have. I tried to push it. I lost the first year. I went back the next year and I tried it again, and politics got involved. Oh, these people um telling you, Tim, sometimes they get down there and they just talk about foolishness. And they're not talking about anything that's helping people, and I lost the second year. But this year, Republicans and Democrats, I was able to rally them. I was uh uh I was there two-thirds of the times of the session, and not only was it chaplain bill, it was the 10 commandments bill. And the way the Ten Commandments, I invited one of the legislators to come to your conference. And when he came to your conference, he heard about the Ten Commandments in the other states, and he brought that back. And together we worked to try to get Ten Commandments. He was the one carrying a chaplain bill. That's the reason why I asked him to come to your conference. So the second year uh I was carrying it, he came to that conference, he picked up the Ten Commandments, and we worked together to get that through. We also, there are other things I'm working on, I I I want to keep uh protest out of the churches. I would like to see if we can move to the point that protesting in the state of Alabama, you can't block traffic. You can't do that. I want to be able to move to get our nation back to some respectful way of protesting. The protesting that we did in the 60s all came out of the church, those that were effective. We prayed before we went out in the streets. We prayed because we knew that unless the Lord was with us, we would be wasting our time. And we were successful. So that's that's that's what I did. I will be going next session. They're having a special session today talking about the redistricting that's going on. That's upset a lot of people. I want to see that we begin to start looking at people as being all equal, not someone being less than because of the color of their skin, but all people. And every representative needs to represent all people, not just the blacks, not just the Hispanics, but represent all people. That's what I want to see us do. I want us, but it's gonna take clergy, it's gonna take Christians to rise up and stop sitting up saying, Well, we don't get involved with politics. And there's separation of church and state. Not a way our government was founded. We must pull together and the church must unite. The church must unite because churches are being split right now. I'm speaking a lot over things that uh but see, I'm a preacher.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

I love it. Well, so so Bishop, I I do want to highlight. So you pointed out that it didn't work your first year, yeah. You showed up the second year, it didn't work your second year, but because you persevered, ultimately something incredible happened where God gets the victory, uh, God gets the glory in all of this, and your labor paid off. And this is something too that your whole life is a bit of a testimony to this, uh about the legacy of enduring faith. Um, when you persevere, the Bible tells us this don't grow weary in well-doing, for in due season, if you do not faint, if you do not give up, you shall receive your reward. And and and we have now getting to know you for so many years, we have seen this in your life where you've had to endure a lot of things along the way, but you have learned perseverance. And when you know something is right, you're gonna stand for what's right. In love, you speak the truth and and you fight for that. Uh, as you mentioned, for everybody. That this is not something you're fighting for a specific group of people. You love everybody because the Bible commands us and calls us to do that. And I am so grateful that that you are an example of someone that has shown up and you keep showing up and you keep persevering for what is right, and now we get to praise God and these couple of victories that have happened in Alabama this year, and obviously your fight is not done. Bishop Lois, as we wrap up this conversation, I always want to give uh whoever I'm talking to the opportunity if if you could give a piece of advice to anybody listening, and obviously we know we're talking to grandparents and moms and dads and kids and and boys and girls. So, whoever is listening, what would be a piece of advice that you would give to our listeners today?

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Well, I would say first thing comes to mind, you're never too old and you're not too young to start serving the Lord, to follow his voice. Moses was 80 when he called him. Samuel was just a child. So at all ages, it's time to listen to the Lord, to follow his voice. And all you need is the Lord with you to accomplish great, wonderful, great works for his glory. Reach out, reach out, hold on to his hand, and let him lead you and guide you. And we can make our nation a better nation if we will stop listening to what people say. Why do we have fear of man? Remember, I was 20 years missing the Lord, listening to other people, and it was only till I found him for myself. Seek the Lord, he will be found, and obey. And all things are possible to him who believes.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

Bishop, it is so great, and I am so grateful for you for your friendship. Our family loves you. We appreciate you, and thank you for spending time with us on this podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Glad to be here, glad to be here anytime.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

All right, everybody else, thank you for taking time to hang out with us on the American Story podcast today. As Bishop Lowe talked about, uh the the journey from hearing God's voice to having to learn to walk in forgiveness, to let bitterness go. And honestly, the perseverance of showing up and really discovering who Jesus was and building that personal relationship. I think there's so many takeaways we can have today. And I pray that God is speaking to you even now. The Holy Spirit would maybe encourage, challenge, or convict you in areas where this might apply for you. Until then, thanks for hanging out with us on the American Story Podcast.