America's Founding Was More Miraculous Than You Think | Eric Metaxas & Tim Barton

In this episode of The American Story Podcast, host Tim Barton sits down with bestselling author, speaker, and cultural commentator Eric Metaxas to discuss his newest book, Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World. 

Together, they explore the remarkable story of America's founding, the faith and courage of the Founding Fathers, and the principles that shaped a nation unlike any other. 

Metaxas shares fascinating stories from his extensive research, revealing why the American Revolution remains one of the most significant events in world history and what its lessons mean for Americans today. 

If you love history, liberty, and the untold stories behind America's founding, this conversation is one you won't want to miss.

Learn more about WallBuilders and America's forgotten history at WallBuilders.

#AmericanStoryPodcast #TimBarton #EricMetaxas #AmericanRevolution #USHistory #FoundingFathers #FaithAndFreedom #WallBuilders #America250

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I really believe that it's possible, at least possible, that that the Lord intends now for this kind of liberty to spread around the globe, that people in England are saying we've had enough. How do we get that?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Welcome to the American Story Podcast. Today I am joined by a friend who is a prolific author, a noted voice in the Christian conservative movement, Eric Metaxis. Now, some of you might know Eric because of books he's done like Bonhoeffer, very noted biography. He's done lots of other books. He did one on Amazing Grace that paralleled the movie Amazing Grace with William Wilberforce. He uh has done things like If You Can Keep It, A Letter to the American Church, so many phenomenal books and stories. And he has a new book out now called Revolution, which is the history of the American Revolution. And as we get closer to the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, I thought this is a great time to have Eric on to join us in conversation. So, Eric, thanks for hanging out with us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I'm thrilled to be with you because we like to talk about the same things. I'm excited. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yes, I mean, some of some of the books that have become some of my favorites are ones that you authored. Uh and and this time you actually have written a book that is very central to the things that I actually have studied and know about. So I'm so excited to dive in. Um you sent me a copy. Uh it's on my shelf at my office. And uh again, I'm so excited to dive into this, but I want to back up for a minute because I I do want to spend time getting into your book where you can talk to people about the inspiration, obviously the 250th, but the things that the lessons that you learned and what's relevant for today. But you have written prolifically for so long, you've been a conservative voice, a Christian voice, uh in the media world for so long. How did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

What what was your start to get you there? Well, um, you know, I have to give the kind of canned answer because it's true. It it's obviously the Lord's leading, God's leading in my life. I'm not just saying that. I have lived it and I've experienced it. When you look back, you see it's obvious. Um I mean, I knew when I was, you know, in high school that I had an affinity for the humanities, but my parents, you know, I grew up working class. I didn't think we'd be like, you know, we weren't big readers or anything. So I never thought people could be writers or authors or whatever. So I go to college, uh, I'm an English major. I want to be a writer, but I don't know the Lord. So what do I think I'm gonna do? I think I'm gonna write novels. I'm gonna be like my heroes, you know, who've written these great novels or whatever. I didn't know what I was doing. Um graduated from Yale, uh, I was lost. I was just lost, confused. What am I doing with my life? What do I want to write about? I I was so lost. I mean, it's even painful to think about. Long story short, um God dramatically saved me around my 25th birthday. I mean, it was a very dramatic born-again experience. And I asked Jesus into my heart, I mean, everything changed overnight. And suddenly I say, okay, Lord, now that I know you're there, will you guide me in my career? Will you lead me? And and and the Lord led me dramatically and clearly on a very strange journey. But you know, when you put your hand in the hand of the man from Galilee, you're gonna go places that you wouldn't go by yourself. And so I wrote 30 children's books. I never thought I'd write children's books. Um I I've written a lot of humor. Um, but I always knew that at the heart of everything is like I want to serve God with my talents. And basically in 19, uh, sorry, in 2006, I was asked, would you like to write a biography of William Wilberforce, who there was a movie coming out called Amazing Grace. Do you want to write a biography to come out with that? And I'd written a children's book on the story of Squanto, which is a true story from history, and I thought, well, I've worked with original documents and I know how to tell the truth and tell a story, and okay, I guess, yeah, I could write the story of Wilberforce. Let me try, you know. And I I God actually spoke to me about that. I won't get into that, but it's like, you know, sometimes you need a little push. And so I wrote the story of Wilberforce, and I thought, wow, I I don't have to invent the plot, it's a true story, because I always was bad and I could I don't know how to do plot. And I wrote that story, and suddenly you realize in the course of doing something you never thought you'd do. I never, ever, ever, ever thought I would write a biography, ever, ever. And God kind of tricked me into it, and as I was writing it, I thought I can express my literary gifts, I can use my literary gifts in the telling of a story which is so important. It's the story of a Christian man who, because of his Christian faith in politics, changes the world. I mean, it's an amazing story. And then people kept saying, like, what are you gonna write about next? Sort of assuming I found my you know genre. And I was like, Well, I don't know if I ever write another biography. But then I thought, if I ever did, if I were to write a second biography, Bonhoeffer would probably be the one just because I know enough about him. And my mother grew up in Nazi Germany, grew up during this time. This is part of my story. Uh, my family lived through this. So I wrote the story of Bonhoeffer, not knowing what I was getting into. Like with a lot of these books, I don't know what I'm getting into. And that book kind of cracked my whole career open. And people kind of, most people come up to me and say, Thank you for your book. What book? Oh, Bonhoeffer. Like they all seem to be familiar with Bonhoeffer. Um, so that's kind of what led me into this strange story.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Uh so it's that it's crazy to me that biographies were not an interest for you. Because knowing some of what you've written, you know, everything from like a veggie tales, you said, you know, kids' books, kids' stories, you've done it all, but I I think of you as the biography guy, because as you mentioned, like Amazing Grace, phenomenal. Bonhoeffer, awesome. Martin Luther, you've done so many biographies, even like seven men going through their stories. My brain thinks of you as the biography guy, and certainly you you have become one of the most noted for writing incredible biographies, telling people stories, as you mentioned, honestly, truthfully, compelling ways. But it's just it's fascinating the way that God directs the story so often that it's it's not always the ambition that we had, but God sees the heart, God gave us the gift, and God says, Okay, let's let's put this together. And and and Bonhoeffer, just to kind of pick up where you were, Bonhoeffer's the one that is actually for the average reader, probably intimidating, but for the people that are committed and dedicated, when they get through it, they go, This is one of the most remarkable men, one of the most phenomenal stories I've ever read. And as someone who does a lot studying history, telling the story, the biggest challenge that that my dad and I encounter, usually in trying to tell the story, is what parts are we gonna cut out to to keep it short enough to keep people engaged with the conversation? And I feel like uh obviously with Bonhoeff, you had to do that, even though it seems like you were able to keep more in that book than what a lot of people have told, but it's because you were telling the honest story that not everybody is told in the depth. So as you are navigating writing some of these books, how do you figure out what part you're gonna leave out, or is it kind of like this is my book, and I'm just gonna tell the parts I'm gonna tell. How do you navigate that?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

I think it's both, right? Like, I think first of all, I think God, it's kind of funny because you say, you know, I think of you, you you think of me as like the guy who writes biographies. I would say God thinks of me as the guy who writes biographies, but I didn't know that. And so God had to reveal that to me because he gave me a set of gifts. They are gifts from him for his purposes. And I really believe that in writing these books, and including the new book on revolution, the American Revolution, I could see those gifts come to life that are innate to me. It's just like I sort of have a sense, an innate sense of what uh is the story and what needs to be. I mean, I'm good at storytelling. You know, if somebody, if somebody's uh telling a story at a dinner table and I'm familiar with the story, I'll always interrupt like, well, wait a minute. No, no, no, you you you forgot this part. Like if you don't, if you don't set it up right, then then the story is not really clear. It's not it, the punchline is not clear, the joke is not clear. If you don't set it up right, you gotta, you know, you and you have to have an innate sense of that. Or I mean, it's not that it can't be learned at all, but I think I have an innate sense and a and a deep desire to communicate. And so and then there's other things where you just think you see something and you think, how is it that these other books have not mentioned this? This is amazing or funny or crazy, and they don't even mention this. This is bizarre, you know, and you have to kind of so it's it's a balance between the historical consensus that already exists and then what some of that historical consensus might have missed. But why would they not? And that's actually the cr that's the biggest piece of the story of the the American Revolution, I mean the new book, is like I was amazed because I am not like you or your dad, like I know all this stuff. I knew just enough that I had a goal, that I want to tell the story, the whole story in one book. This is the story of the American Revolution. But where do you start? What do you put in? What do you leave out? Whatever, you know, and I was astonished really to see how much, I mean, there's a million books on the American Revolution, but you know, not really any famous ones that are definitive. And I wanted to write a definitive book that it's all here. It's a 250th, you want to know the story, it's all right here. This is the book, right? But I was amazed how the cultural narrative, and you guys know this better than anybody in the world, they they kind of leave stuff out that is central. And I thought, how can you do that? You're being dishonest. Yeah, so it's not like I'm going out of my way. Like, you know, I don't write Christian books. I write books, I write history books. But the point is, it is Christian. You can't get away from it. If you tell it honestly, you are not if you don't see that, you're gonna be publishing a lie. And a lot of stuff, like you know, like Ken Burns' PBS documentary that came out, like I don't think it's intentional mostly, but they just don't speak that language. And so they're kind of missing the guts of the whole thing. And so that's kind of you know, I have to say that that's that's a gift from God to kind of like see these things and then to say, like, man, I gotta put this in the book. This is crazy, this is amazing. And I think it will, I think it will make it more readable uh because it is, you know, when you're reading something funny or weird or fascinating or shocking, it you want to keep reading, you know, and so that's to me the gr the greatest compliment anybody could give me. It's like I couldn't put your book down. This book, people have already been saying that, and I think praise God, because it's a lot of information. But I do think that if you're an American, this is just amazing stuff. Like we every American needs to know this stuff. This is not extra credit. It's like we need to know our story.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Well, and to your point, one of the things that I'm so grateful uh that you intentionally did in telling the honest story is you didn't sanitize and filter it the way we've done a modern culture, where in the modern culture that there's this concept for many in academia that if there's something religious, okay, let's not talk about that. Let's leave that out. And and the irony is like that's the entire motivating factor for the majority of people that were part of the American Revolution.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

It's undeniable, it is inescapable, and not to acknowledge that is to lie. It is a lie. Right. You you you it and in many cases it is a vile lie. And there are people that they can't they can't deal with the faith stuff, they just avoid it. But it's like then you shouldn't be writing about the American Revolution because this is not escapable. This is not like sort of or a couple of them. The whole thing from STEM to stern, wall to wall, A to Z, it is Christian faith. I didn't know that until I did the research. I mean, I know it's gonna be there, sort of. I mean, it is wild to me how central that is. And so I wrote the book for everybody. I mean, you can give this as a Father's Day gift to somebody who is not a Christian or conservative or whatever. They're just gonna read the story of the revolution, but in the middle of that story, it's just inescapable. That's how the founders saw it, and we need to see it through their eyes, and we would not have America at all if not for that Christian faith. You can't get there from here. Like it's either that's what made it, and by the way, it was almost impossible, it was a miraculous thing that this country can comes into being. So the idea that, oh, it sort of just happened, no, these were people dedicated to these ideas, dedicated to the truth, dedicated to obeying God in fighting the war, in in in in in in fighting Great Britain before the war, to which brought about the war. So that's the actual story of what happened 250 years ago. We need to know our story. I don't care if you're a Christian or a conservative, it doesn't matter. This is this is the story. You don't need to agree with it or like it, but this these are the facts. And and to quote John Adams, facts are stubborn things. I didn't know that he came up with that, but he did. He came up with the phrase facts are stubborn things. This book is just the facts, but facts turn out to be beautiful and inspiring, so that's good news.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Well, and and also when when you get into the details of the story, when you look, for example, at guys like Benjamin Franklin, uh, who's considered one of the least religious of the founding fathers, and and Franklin's a guy who suggested the national motto ought to be rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. He suggested that the seal, we ought to have Moses standing on the side of the Red Sea with Pharaoh's army drowning in the midst, Moses raising up his rod behind it. You have this cloud uh and and a pillar of fire, and and and that was going to be the seal surrounded by the motto rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. And you're going, wait a second, like where does Franklin come up with this idea? Well, it's it's obvious and apparent, but this is the point. When you start going through the details of who they were, of what they did, that this notion that the flag that many people have seen and appeal to heaven, that was one of the first naval flags uh for the American patriots in this cause of liberty. There's so much evidence going along. George Washington, in one of his very first general orders, where he says that to the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our higher honor to add the distinguished character of Christian. Uh the the Continental Congress during the American Revolution, they have 15 calls for all of the colonies to join them in times of prayer, uh, either for prayer and fasting or prayer and thanksgiving. And to your point, when they when they're going through this situation, why would they be having days, literally calling on all the colonies to have a day of prayer and fasting? They recognized openly if God did not intervene on their behalf, they were never going to succeed in what they do.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

This is not debatable. And that's where I get angry with people that they don't like it. It's like, I don't care if you like it, you don't have to like it. Uh, but this is not debatable. And we have to be honest. And if you're not interested in being honest and truthful, I'm not interested in talking to you. You need to care about what is true. You don't need to agree with it. You could say, well, it's unfortunate. Uh, I don't, you know, I don't like the fact that slavery was abolished because of biblical Christians fighting for their biblical ideas. I don't like that because I don't like Christians. You don't need to like Christians, but you need to deal with the historical reality that it was sought-off evangelical Christians who fought this battle. Uh, it was it was uh evangelical Christians in our colonies that were at the forefront. I mean, John Adams, oh my gosh, he should be ten times more famous than Jefferson. I I didn't know, again, I'm not like you and your dad. I didn't know this, and I'm reading and reading and reading, and I thought, wow, I had no idea of the centrality of John Adams. He's like the hero that bigger than anybody. He's the man we have independence because of John Adams. John Adams was there from the beginning uh in Boston and all the way to the end, signing the treaty in 1783. He he kind of frames my book in a way, and again, I didn't intend that, but it was so remarkable to discover this stuff and to see that how Christian he was, how Christian Abigail was, how Christian his second cousin Samuel Adams was. Oh my gosh. These were fire-breathing, God-loving Christians who said, Because of my Christian faith, I see these things and I cannot back down. I will not bow to Caesar, uh, I I will not uh bow to Nebuchadnezzar. This is my faith leads me to rebel against this tyranny. And Benjamin Franklin saw that, you just said it. So, this idea that this is kind of this some little religious group, no, no, no. They all got it. Everybody in Congress, everyone risking their lives, their fortunes, and the sake of honor, they got this. They got the centrality of God. And I it it's only because I I thought there's not like a mainstream book that presents this. I that's why I said I've got to write a book that tells the truth. But I had no idea, um I had no idea, Tim, that in the writing of this basic narrative, that it would be so unavoidable. I I just thought there'll be some parts, but it's like it's everywhere you look. And I really I hope that my book can lead a lot of mainstream people back to the truth about this country's origins. Because again, I don't write my book just for believers or conservatives, I write it for everybody, and I hope that people that maybe aren't where we are will say, you know what, I've never heard this before, but yeah, this is interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Well, one of the things that that my dad and I have long contended in telling the story, which by the way, I'm so glad that you have written this book because when people ask for good books on the revolution, it's a very short list of people that have done much detail. People often think of it, well, like David McCullough did 1776, and there's nothing wrong with that book. It's it's very short, it's very abbreviated in the span of what's there. And David McCullough usually doesn't get into much of the faith aspect of these guys, which as you study them, you realize this is the central theme and tone of who they were. They were faith guys motivated and driven. And when people challenge, sometimes my dad and I, the question I ask is, okay, what part did we get wrong? And usually you can't identify that we were incorrect in talking about them being motivated by the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

I mean, the other thing is like I was thinking, you know, when I was making the decision, do I want to write this book? I thought, yeah, what books are there out there that I could recommend and say, hey, here's a great book in the revolution. I realized, like, 1776 is just about the year 1776. But everything leading up to 1775, to Lexington and Concord and Bunker Hill, that is amazing stuff. Like, I was so blown away to really understand how that all happened. I said, I gotta write about that. Yeah. So my book really starts in, you know, uh 1761, 1762, three, like, you know, the new king, they win the French and Indian War. So my book starts there, and then the lunacy of the 1760s in Boston and the Stamp Act and the riots and the crazy stuff leading up to the Boston Massacre at the Boston TV. I mean, all that stuff, that is American history, as much as Lexington and Concord, as much as Bunker Hill. Like, we need to know all of that stuff. So I said, I want to start there, and I want to go all through the war. I don't want to end at 1776. What happens in, you know, 1777? You get Saratoga, and you get, you know, the crazy story of Burgoyne and Benedict Arnold, and oh my gosh, it's just so crazy and beautiful. And so, as I say, I mean, I want to write a book that's the whole this is the whole revolution. Here's the story of here's how it all happened, and now you now you know, you know, and again, I think it's vital that it be really readable so that you can't put it down, so that you know, if you're at the beach, you actually want to keep reading. Because look, we need to know this. I mean, I again you know it, your dad knows it, the people who listen to you know this, but there's so many people that they don't know it, and I would argue like it's joyful to know it. It's beautiful. It's like when you know this story, you you want to tell everybody. So I I want to tell the world about Henry Knox and Nathan Hale and all this stuff that you know is uh this is our history and it's exciting. And they were all all, I mean, Nathan Hale, Henry Knox, profound men of God, amazing Christians.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah. Well, and and I love the fact that you because I was gonna ask the question, okay. So, you know, for everybody listening, where do you start? And so you just clarified, you start right after the French and Indian War. The reason that matters is most people have heard of this that the most famous grievance is no taxation without representation. But if you don't understand, well, the French and Indian War is kind of what led to some of these taxes because the king was like, hey, it was fought on your land, you're gonna help pay for it, and they're like, We didn't vote for none of this. What are you talking about? And and if you even look at the tax, and of course you have, and I'm saying this for everybody, this is why you need to go read the book. Uh, he goes through and and outlines this. If you look at the taxes, it It wasn't that it was this extraordinary tax that was introduced on them. It's not like you're living in New York City under a Modami or somebody and they're raising crazy tax rates. No, it it actually was a very small tax. It was the principle of the matter. They said you're violating some of these very basic rights, the understanding we have as British citizens living in the colonies, you're suspending the British Bill of Rights, and you start going through all of the things that happened, which again, I love the fact that you're going through from the beginning, and then going all the way to the peace treaty of Paris, which this is one of the things I love to show people, understanding that this is the document that ended the revolution that brought peace between us and Great Britain. It established America as a free and independent nation. And I always tell people, you need to go read the title of it. And then usually if I'm giving a presentation, I'll show it up on the screen. Because the title of the document is in the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity. Well, that's the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And you're going, wait a second, think for a second. America becomes a nation in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So tell me again how they weren't religious. Tell me again, right, how these were secular deist people. Like no, because I couldn't even imagine a pastor coming up with that title for a peace treaty. Much less political leaders. And you mentioned John Adams, and you and I have talked on your program about John Adams being so overlooked. But if you go back and steady, John Adams is the one that nominates George Washington to be the commander of our military. Kind of a big deal. John Adams is the one that suggests Thomas Jefferson should write the Declaration. Kind of a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

He forces Thomas Jefferson to write the Declaration of Independence. And he's the one that picks Richard Henry Lee to put forward the motion. He's a canny operator. I mean, I tell you, my love for John Adams, I did not know anything compared to what I know now. I mean, he again, he's like the unsung hero of the whole thing. I'm just amazed by John Adams.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Well, and then John Adams, to continue on, he is the ambassador over in Europe for much of the revolution. He and Franklin, the two top two, but they're over in Europe for much of the revolution. We're we're so much that he's away from Abigail for huge portions, if not the majority, of the revolution. He's he's giving up time with his family, raising his kids for the cause of liberty. You mentioned he signs the peace treaty ending the revolution, and it's him and John Jay and Benjamin Franklin. Now, John Jay also devout Christian. Franklin, not an Orthodox Christian, but certainly not anti-Christian. But I would contend it probably is John Adams who comes up with the title of this treaty. All of this to say you highlight so many incredible heroes. You've already mentioned John Adams is one of the most overlooked, should be more significant people from that story. Who are maybe some of the other people, or is there a significant moment or two in your research that you were like, I had no idea this person or this moment. What stood out to you?

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Well, there's a there's a lot of this, and and and I gotta say, that's why I wrote the book because I thought we're responsible for this information. This is gonna be on the test, folks. Like, this is not extra credit. Every American needs to know these names and these stories, and I put every one of them in this book. If there, if it's an extra credit or we don't need to know it, it's not in the book. I think that you know, anywhere you look, the story of James Otis Jr., I never heard of James Otis Jr. John Adams says James Otis Jr. in 1761 arguing in a Boston courtroom against the writs of assistance. This was this draconian, pushy British thing. I won't even go into it, but James Otis Jr. is arguing, and these are Puritan Reformation Christians, okay, arguing against this tyranny in 1761. The story of James Otis Jr., amazing. And John Adams says that the child independence was then and there born that day in that courtroom. I he saw it, he was 25 years old watching James Otis Jr. argue in the Boston Courtman, and it's like the spark of what was ahead happens then. Then you have figures like Patrick Henry, John Hancock. I mean, these heroes, John Hancock is such a hero. It's unbelievable. People don't realize. What a hero. Samuel Adams, you don't get better than Samuel Adams. Samuel Adams is the father of the American Revolution, period. That's it. You you wouldn't even he was arguing against this stuff in the 1740s. He's writing essays about this, and again, it comes right out of his Christian faith. He goes to Harvard, he's writing his dissertation on this stuff. I mean, this is just everywhere you look, this is how it happens. 1775, Lexington Congo doesn't just boom happen. This is principled men of God who say our rights come from God. We will not, we will not dare to pay a tax that we don't feel is legitimate. We feel like that would be, you know, it would be, it would be like, you know, you know, just sleep with that one girl, nobody will look. You'd be like, no, no, I'm a Christian, uh, God is looking. I'm not gonna do anything to dishonor God. They believed that to bow to the tyranny and say, well, just pay the shut up and pay the tax, they said, no, no, no, no, no. We're we're we're looking to God. We don't dare just like shut up and just do it and shut up. No, we are men of principle. That really, I gotta say, it's very moving to see these were men of principle. It was not about the money, it was not about the taxes, it was about who says that I need to pay this tax? Is this legitimate? Because I can't just go along with it. I'm I'm I'm gonna be responsible before God and my family of going along with something that's corrupt and wrong. So please explain this to me. And obviously the British could not explain it. They just like shut up and pay it. And I I was so moved by that. And again, there's so many figures. Paul Revere, oh my gosh. I mean, the only reason we know about him is because the Midnight Ride. The Midnight Ride is the least important thing he ever did in his life compared to everything that he did. He is one of the great heroes of the Sons of Liberty before the revolution. I mean, obviously the Midnight Ride was important, but it was nothing compared to all the other stuff that he did. I mean, he is just a maniac. He's everywhere you look. Uh, and again, the 1760s, very exciting time, this run-up. The Stamp Act. I never thought I'd be excited about the Stamp Act. I am so excited about this stuff that it was like, you know, and the funny thing is that I thought, well, you know, I'm my assignment for the book is I want to tell the story of the revolution. So it starts Lexington and Concord. So I'm gonna start there. But probably should, you know, kind of explain how we get to Lexington and Concord. And the more research I do, the more I think, wow, this is like the lightning in a bottle. This is crazy stuff that I didn't know about. I gotta write about this, I gotta write about this, I gotta write it. So there's all this great stuff. So all these characters in the run-up to the revolution, that's the heart of the story. I mean, that that you know, that this is kind of like if you would say, like, I want to tell the story of Christianity, and we'll start when, you know, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit, you know, down on Pentecost. You're like, wait a minute. Yeah, like the church kind of starts then, but what happened before that, kind of interesting and important and crazy. Like, I don't think you want to leave that out. That's what we're talking about here. I mean, 1775, Lexian and Concord or 1776, the Declaration of Independence, like, yeah, like that's when like it becomes official. But the stuff before that, these characters, I think, I think of um, you know, I mentioned uh Paul Revere. One of the unsung heroes uh of the revolution, who every American should know, is Dr. Joseph Warren. Most Americans don't even know that name. And again, when I discovered this stuff, I'm ashamed. I'm like, wow, how did I not know of this hero? He was like the Charlie Kirk of that day. Like he was the leader of the movement. The leader. And when he was killed at Bunker Hill in the beginning, they were just like, How can this be? We have lost the leader. What are we gonna do now? He was 34 years old, he was brave, uh, brilliant, dedicated, heroic, and I I could see like Abigail Adams and others are are just at a loss. What a where do we go now? Like he's dead. He was the leader on so many levels, so brilliant, so talented, whatever. And most Americans don't know his name. What a hero he was. We need to know his story. And I've I should say that I've done uh we're doing 13 uh Socrates in the City interviews with uh scholars of the revolution, people whose books I used in my um in my writing. And so if you want greater depth on some of these figures like Dr. Joseph Warren, we'll be publishing these at SocratesandCity.com, you know, week after week, because you can't know enough. And again, this is why my hat off to you and your dad. You guys have been the heroes in opening this stuff up to people. It is so it's so exciting. And I and I and I feel, Tim, this is the year that God has appointed this 250th year, I call it the supercentennial year. This is our supercentennial. I think Americans that normally would not be interested are are gonna dive in and we're gonna have a resurgence of patriotism uh and dedication to God. Because if you know the true story of the nation, which is again the point of my book, you can see there's no way we get this nation without God's hand. And and nobody knew it better than George Washington, nobody knew it better than John Adams. They knew that apart from God's intervention and blessing, w this is not happening. We do not have the cards to quote President Trump. We don't have the cards. Well, God has the cards, and they they they bowed before him. You know, you mentioned all these uh moments where Congress is calling the entire nation to pray. Congress is calling the nation to pray. My favorite is where Samuel Adams gives the speech August 1st, 1776, on this on the steps of Independence Hall. The day before everyone officially signs the Declaration of Independence, he gives a speech, and the central line is we have this day restored the sovereign, capital S. Who's the sovereign? The Lord of hosts, the King of Kings. We've gotten rid of King George III, and we have restored the true sovereign. We're looking directly to him, just like the Israelites at Sinai, never been done in 3,000 years. God has allowed us to do it again in history. This is an epical moment. There's nothing to compare to it. I mean, there is nothing to compare to the birth of the United States of America. And again, when you know the story, which is why I wrote the book, you can't unsee it. You you you think, I guess I didn't know this before, but I know it now. And it makes you excited to be an American and to realize like we are so privileged that I want to weep at at the honor and the privilege of getting to live in this country.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Well, I so so let me spend the last few minutes uh going kind of this direction of where we are in the nation, of what God is doing, because I think your book, The Revolution, or just Revolution, but your book Revolution is going to be very instrumental in helping people remember who we are and where we came from to help direct where we're going. You you've written books like Letter to the American Church, which was phenomenal, loved it. Uh, if you can keep it. Again, incredible book, and it was really a call and challenge to say, Christians, like this thing is not guaranteed, it's not promised. If you don't wake up, if you don't figure it out, and even the letter to the American Church, one of the compelling things about the revolution is if you go back and we start asking the question, like who really inspired and influenced the founding fathers, and you realize it was so often the pastors in their home communities that were encouraging and challenging and mentoring them. All of this to say, Eric, we were we were recently together in Washington, D.C. at the Rededicate America event. Um we are seeing things right now in our nation that give me hope uh and encouragement. Obviously, God is on the move in special ways right now in America. Uh I think maybe not just a revival. I think that's happening. I think we are in a revival, but I think this revival could become another great awakening. Uh, and there's a lot of historic things I would point to as data points of why I think there's support for that thought and that cause. But knowing that you are someone who has studied moves of God, you've seen how God has used people, and now you've studied the American Revolution, where the American Revolution came on the heels of the First Great Awakening. Had it not been for those pastors, those ministers and leaders in the First Great Awakening, there is no revolution. And that's just the plain and simple of it.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Now you are right, you've written this book to remind Americans who we are and where we came from. But I'm also thinking this is a moment that God is doing something again in this nation to give us an opportunity to turn back to restore some of what's been lost, and the fact that God's even using a President Trump. This is how you know it's God. That God didn't choose somebody that we might have chosen, this incredible pastor figure. No, God, God chose a Hebrews 11 kind of figure. He chose a David, a Samson, right, a Noah, these very flawed and perfect people. But I think God is doing something unique in the nation. What do you see? And and what are your thoughts? What's your encouragement for Christians right now in this moment?

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Um, first of all, I want to say like there is no doubt that we are in the midst of a move of God. And that's part of why we're seeing the evil we're seeing. You know, when the Holy Spirit comes in, the demons react. We are seeing a level of evil because they don't know where to go. They're writhing and screaming and shrieking. Um, you're seeing that everywhere. And let that encourage you. That is proof that the Holy Spirit is here and is moving and they have nowhere to go, or they know that their time is nigh, they're not happy. Um, so we have to say that, and I've said it many times, we're in a spiritual war, but the Lord has called us to be warriors in the spiritual war. He's called He made us for this. This is not like, oh, we gotta go through this. No, no, no. You're made for this. This is why we're here, uh it's why you're alive in this hour. And I I keep saying this is the third existential crisis in American history. The first is the revolution, we never should have come into being. That's a fact. God brought us through miraculously. The second is the civil war. We are now in the third existential crisis. We ought not to survive. We should have died, you know, uh, under the second Biden administration. We we are we're dying. God had a different plan. God chose for us to survive and to prevail, and that is what we're going through right now. And so if you said to George Washington in 1776, George, I know you're gonna win, uh, while he's retreating through the new the jerseys, you know, the New Jersey, uh and limping and broken, and I mean I think he would say, Well, I'm glad, but we're suffering now. Uh I'm glad we're going to win, but we are dying now. Uh that's the reality of war, is that even though you're going to win, you are in a war. There are going to be casualties, sometimes literally, as in the case of our friend Charlie Kirk, uh there are going to be casualties and there's suffering. That's what war is, but God calls us to this. And Washington knew my job is to obey God, my job is to look to the Lord for guidance. And the fact is that people don't understand that Washington and others, they had this covenantal view that we must honor God. If we do not honor God, God will not honor us. If we stoop to what the British are stooping to, because the British, that's a big subtext of my book, is the barbarism, the irreligious, nasty, vile nature uh of many of the British elites, which I didn't know until I did the research. The Americans said, we will not stoop to that. We will honor God in how we fight, in how we treat our enemies, in how we treat our prisoners. The British were the opposite. The British, when they uh many times, and I document this in the book, many times the Americans would surrender, the British would bayonet them to death. This is like a Japanese army in World War II or the Nazis in World War II, or the Roman, uh the Roman army, brutal. The Americans covenanted with God. Washington makes that clear, John Adams makes that clear. They knew that if we fight the war God's way, he may give us the victory. Otherwise, we don't even want to win if we have to stoop to what the British are doing. So I kind of think we're in a similar situation that if the nation looks to the Lord now, as many people are doing, God will give us the victory. But that's our job. Our job is to look to him and ask him, what do you want me to do? And so there is just no doubt that this covenant that we made with the Lord in saying, I've restored the sovereign, we've restored the sovereign. We're looking to you, Lord, like in the Sinai Wilderness, and we're gonna we have to elect people, we have to fight, we have to uh, you know, we have to do whatever we have to do to keep the republic, but ultimately you're the author. And I think that that, I mean, again, it wasn't my intention when I started writing the book, but I think when you see the narrative, you see that that is the story, that that if you look to God and obey God, He will give you the victory. And I believe it is His will to give us the victory. So we're fighting now. Um, and so I would encourage people to fight, and again, I don't I don't mean fight with a musket. I mean fight uh on your knees in prayer, fight by uh being politically involved, fight by uh knowing this history. If you don't know this history, make it an assignment because you can't really live it out unless you understand this stuff, you know. But this is the year, and so I am deeply hopeful, Tim. I mean, I don't I don't just say that. I I I believe this is what God has said. It's like, yes, you will win, but you have to keep going. Uh and it's be maybe because you know you're gonna win that you will keep going when the when the chips are down. So uh, but I I am I'm deeply encouraged at this moment in history that that God has ordained it, and a big part of it is a great awakening, is revival. You can't really you can't get there. You you can't get where we want to go without that forming the basis of most people's motivation.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

I totally agree. I I'm so grateful, Eric, that you you spent the work to write this book as someone who's had had to do a ton of research to write history books because it's different than you know, maybe writing a novel where you don't have to fact-check. You're just telling the story. No, when you're writing a history book, there's so much work and research involved, and and and I understand, so I'm so grateful that you took time to write what is now the definitive work, the the one-stop shop on the American Revolution, and you told it honestly, which means you didn't exclude the impact of faith. To tell it honestly, you had to say, no, he said this, they said this, and without God, they recognized they were never going to succeed. And I think that's exactly where we are today. God is stirring on the hearts and minds of people, people's eyes are being opened to recognize if God's not a part of this narrative, we don't go forward, we don't succeed going forward. But the great thing is, God has always wanted to be part of our story, and and the only reason we exist is because God was directing and part of the story from the beginning. Again, your book highlights this. So for everybody watching and listening, highly encourage EricMataxis.com. Uh, the book is revolution, you need to get it. Eric, uh, one of the things I ask everybody who joins me in in a closing thought is what would be an encouragement or recommendation that you would give, whether it's grandma and grandpa, mom or dad, boy or girl, regardless of age or stage, what's an encouragement you would give to people watching and listening to us right now?

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Well, I guess, I mean, you know, I keep coming back to like why did I write the book? I realized like I don't really know this story the way I should. And then I realized, as I said in my book, if you can keep it, if you don't know this story, you can't really keep the republic. You need to be aware of what is this republic? How does it work? How did the founders put it together? And we're living in a world, awash in lies, that say it's not what it is. It's something, it's some other thing. So we kind of have a duty as Christians to know the truth, to know we're responsible for this information. That's why I'm saying, like, I feel like in this 250th supercentennial year, like this is it, folks. Like, this is the time where just because it's the 250th, people will be interested when other times maybe they wouldn't be interested. But by knowing this stuff, it it it just encourages you. You you become a different person when you when you know this. You can't unknow it. Once you know the centrality of God in the story of America, you go, well, how did I how did I miss this? How did I think that this great nation, this unique nation, we are unique, could come into being apart from God. Ladies and gentlemen, it couldn't and it didn't. Uh the discovery of this continent by Europeans uh, you know, uh 500 years ago was part of God's plan. Uh the the the Reformation was part of God's plan. Uh people dissenting from established churches in Europe saying we want to worship God, coming over to America and establishing Christian communities, part of God's plan. Uh their ability to govern themselves until you get into the 18th century, until you get the conflict with Great Britain, and then this resurgence of we need to now unite to create a nation, not just. The little communities along the coast, but a nation based on this stuff. This is part of God's plan. And it's beautiful. And let's be clear: this is intended for the whole world. This is not just, hey, we Americans, you know, we always say America first, yes, but because you know it's kind of why you put your mask on first on the plane and then you deal with the gate. Like we need to understand what it is and preserve it here because the whole world is interested in what we're doing here. And if and it and if this flame is shining brightly, if we're that shining city on a hill, people look at it and they go, What is that? I want that. Can I have that kind of freedom? We don't have that here. I really believe that it's possible, at least possible, that that the Lord intends now for this kind of liberty to spread around the globe, that people in England are saying we've had enough. How do we get that? So at the center of it is Americans' need to understand what we have, to rejoice in it, to know the story, and to understand that without the Christian heart of it, there is no America and there's no future. So again, I just feel like it's a it's a crazy moment. And I just have to say, Tim, like, there's so many funny stories in the book. Like, I wish we had like three hours because there's crazy stuff that I had no idea about. Characters like John Wilkes, who was in England in the 1760s, this lunatic champion of liberty in England, uh, and all these crazy characters, and the story of Benedict Arnold, I mean, oh my gosh. Oh my goodness. I mean, I that I tell that story. That's like it's it's it's it's unbelievable. So there's there's some there's just some amazing stuff, and I think as a nation, we need to link arms and celebrate and know this stuff, and we will be we will be coming out on the other side of it a different nation. If most Americans know this stuff, or if Americans today that don't know it, you know, uh, you know, like as I say for Father's Day or July 4th or something, they say, oh, I just want to read the story of the American Revolution, people are gonna be shocked. Like, how did I not hear this in school? How did I get by for all these decades and I didn't know this? So again, you and your dad have been at the forefront of this, and so I I just thought, this is this is our moment. This is the 250th year. So uh as you can tell, I'm I'm excited and genuinely hopeful, and we put it in God's hands. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

So, everybody listening, don't just learn their names, learn their story. One of the best ways to do that is get the book Revolution by Eric Mataxis, EricMtaxxis.com, uh easy place, go there, and there's so many other good books and resources. Eric, thank you for taking time to be with me today.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

It it is my privilege. Thanks for what you and your dad do. I uh you're my heroes. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Okay, we heard a lot of great thoughts from Eric. And one of the things that I want to, again, verbally highlight for us is the reality is you study the American Revolution. It takes a little work, but as he pointed out, like this, it's so obvious the influence of Christianity in our nation. Why is it obvious? Because it's all over the original documents, it's all in their letters. One of the things that Benjamin Franklin at the Constitutional Convention, so this is after the revolution, they're writing the Constitution. But one of the things that when he challenges the body that if we don't spend more time in prayer, we might not overcome this problem. One of the things he acknowledged is unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain that build it. And that's actually quoting a Bible verse, but this is the reality of the sentiment from the founding fathers. They knew that if God wasn't a part of the story, they were not going to succeed. And this would be my encouragement and challenge for us today. If we don't have God at the center of our story, and if we're not working to keep at the center of the nation's story, the Bible tells us that the builders, they're going to labor in vain in trying to build something. We want God to be at the center of our story. The Founding Fathers never could have succeeded without God's direct intervention. So many moments, so many battles, we should have been defeated and conquered, and George Washington should have been captured and executed or imprisoned. Something like that would have happened, except God continued to show up. But this wasn't a surprise. They'd actually had days of prayer and fasting asking for God to intervene on their behalf. This is what we need to get back to. We need to get back to recognizing that if God is not part of our continued story in America, we're probably not going to succeed. And therefore, we need to continually invite him to be part of that story, but also part of our story. We need God in our family, in our relationships, uh, in our workplace, all the things we do, we want to invite God to be part of it. Thanks for hanging out with us today on the American Story Podcast.