The Legacy of 100 Minutes | Episode 22

This Father's Day, Tim Barton sits down with Pastor David Marvin for a deeply personal conversation about fatherhood, faith, loss, and the next generation.

David shares the story of his daughter, whose life lasted just 100 precious minutes after birth. Though her time on earth was brief, her impact continues to shape his family, faith, and understanding of what it means to leave a lasting legacy.

Together, Tim and David discuss why fatherhood is about more than providing and protecting—it's about investing in eternity, leading with purpose, and recognizing that every life has immeasurable value.
This episode is a powerful reminder that the significance of a life is not measured by its length, but by the purpose God gives it.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We found out that she, with a very high degree of certainty, and it turned out to be true, had a chromosomal disorder called Trisomy 13. And a majority of Trisomy 13 babies don't live. But one of the more difficult realities of that diagnosis was the spectrum of potential outcomes is actually very broad. And so you're forced in that season that was marked by prayer and tears and just confusion and sadness and trying to lead your kids who are so excited about having a daughter, and how do you prepare their hearts for, hey, we may not get much time with her, while also facing questions that that um God never intended us to face Welcome to the American Story Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

I am Tim Barton, and today I am joined by someone who is an amazing leader in the ministry, David Marvin. Now, this is somebody who actually helped build and lead one of the largest college ministries around. He's now a teaching pastor at one of the largest churches in the nation. God has used this guy in so many amazing ways, and he's had to navigate some pretty challenging things in his life. And I want to get into asking a lot of questions about this. Now, one of the things I definitely am going to get into, and I'm going to toss Tim in a second, is the reality that we have a rising generation that is hungry for truth, that is looking for truth, and sometimes is being misled in their pursuit of truth. How do we help navigate reaching people with what is really true? Are there questions, things, thoughts? All these things we're getting into. So join me welcoming to the show, our friend David Marvin. David, thanks for being here, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Dude, I'm pumped to be here. Let's go. And that was an unbelievably kind intro that I am confident I'm not going to live up to. And uh, even as you're talking, I'm like, man, if God can use a donkey, he can use a knucklehead like me.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

And uh well, I tell people all the time, like Hebrews 11 is one of to me the most encouraging chapters in scripture that when you look at the heroes of our faith that God used, and you're like, they had some major issues. Major issues. And if God can use them, there's hope for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Uh so yeah, so definitely I want to get into a lot of stuff with your story. Uh, just for anybody who is looking right now, going, This is not the normal setup uh we're the American Journey Experience, because this was just easier for us to meet a little bit in the middle. Uh, you have been doing a lot of teaching. You have some more teaching you're doing uh tonight as we are recording this. And so I'm very grateful that you took time to come meet us. So for our audience who only knows maybe what I just said about you, I want to back up and introduce them and tell part of your story. So, like, where are you from? Uh when did you meet Jesus? Yeah, when did you decide ministry was the thing you were doing? Yep. What's part of your journey?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Well, I grew up in uh Houston. So I know is this open to the public?

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yes, people can come and every week we do tours at the American Journey Experience, which is over in Las Colinas, although it's about to relocate to another building. But also then we have a museum in Alito with wall builders, and we encourage people to sign up, come have a tour so they can see part of history for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, if you're listening, you should come have a tour. This place is amazing. And so uh I'll get into my story, but uh, if this is open to the public, you should come see it because uh I am astounded by what's around me right now. But I grew up in Houston, Texas, uh, am one of four kids. I trusted Christ at age 12. My parents actually divorced around age 12, which is part of my story. And it was around that same time that I trusted Christ at a Baptist church down there called Woodridge Baptist Church, still around, good church, had a genuine saving faith. But I would say really found a lot of my identity in being like a good, clean kid that you know didn't uh drink, smoke, or chew with date girls who do was the line when I was growing up. And and it wasn't until I went to AM, never had plans to go into ministry. I wanted to get into the legal world and wanted to do law. I honestly wanted to do politics after that. And so um had a stint there where we're was debating between doing track and field at AM and West Point because it gotten congressionally nominated. And now you running track and fields? I I threw Javelin, which is the only reason I was able to do it because there's like four javelin throws on the planet. There was no running involved, and there wasn't even a lot of competition. So it's a great way for anyone listening if they want to get their kids into a uh D1 school, do a sport that no one else does. But so went to AM, and it was really at AM that God got a hold of Texas AM, God got a hold of my heart in a new way and dealt with a pornography addiction, had authentic community for the first time. Again, ministry was still not on my radar. I just experienced Jesus is not a part of life that you know you check the box here in good grades and uh uh athletics and and you know, keep things in order. Oh, he's meant to be all of life. In fact, he even says in John 11, I am the resurrection and the life. And he just began to change my life. Worked at a uh camp ministry throughout college there, and that's where I really started teaching for the first time. Had no idea what I was doing. I'm sure every message was horrible, but I was I was uh encouraged to do that to the point where the the CEO of the camp said, I want you to come back for the next three years and be on the teaching rotation. And so again, this was all fun and cool, but I'm gonna graduate, got accepted to a program called Teach for America. Have you ever heard of Teach for America? I don't even know if it's still around. I think it is. It's it's basically a resume builder. You know, you go for two years, inner city was started by uh originally Ivy League, uh, and then it broadened other schools. So I was headed to New Orleans. This is after Katrina, and I get a phone call from Watermark two and a half months before I'm supposed to go to New Orleans. Watermark's church in Dallas, I'd heard of, didn't know, I had never been there before because I'm from Houston. And I visited, and at the end of that, they said, hey, if you'll come here, we'll pay you and disciple you for a year. The CEO of the camp I worked at had called the senior pastor there's how that connection all happened. So I prayed about it and thought, man, I I think I'm supposed to do this. And I just couldn't shake that feeling. And so I thought, I'll just go get my seminary degree, that'll be my resume builder, and then I'll go to law school. And over that next year, God just began to really grow my heart for the local church and of how amazing the church could be and should be, and just an environment. I I attended a church that was great, but it wasn't it wasn't like I was experiencing for the first time there at this this church in Dallas. And uh man, I thought, man, if I if I can change light bulbs, I want to keep here, and then eventually I'll go on to law school, and God just continued to open doors, and I eventually started teaching a minister called The Porch, which at the time in 2010, man, I was 22. Like in hindsight, I'm like, they were either desperate or foolish or just gracious. God had a plan. God had a plan. And um, and man, God just really began to touch that ministry. And a good friend of mine, still to this day, Jonathan Pakluda, who was leading it and is a pastor still, uh, we just got to partner together and saw God grow it from 350 to 3,500 in the next couple of years. So you started that with JP? There was actually a guy who started it before either of us were there. Okay. I started teaching with JP. His name, he actually is back in the business world. He started it, and then JP came on in 07. I came on in 09, and and then really by 2012, God had just grown that thing. Wow. It really was one of those things where God just touches something.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

And you can't explain it. And and you do your best to, you know, lead really well and cast vision and and work hard. But man, sometimes God just touches things in a way that nobody can really take credit for. Right. And that was what we were experiencing. And then it quickly grew even from there to additional satellite locations. There was a ministry in Houston called Metro, which used to exist up here and down there. And we were flying down every Thursday to teach at First Baptist Houston. And uh one day we were like, Man, you guys should just stream the porch in. It would save you money and us time. And they did it and it worked. And they had 500 to 700 people coming that were streaming the message, they'd provide worship. And what's really interesting, and we don't have to go fully into this unless it's interesting or helpful, the phone began to ring. And it was other churches asking, can we stream? And at one point we had 18 different locations around the country. I mean, I still have people from Phoenix and Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and just all over that were streaming Porch Austin, I mean, all over Texas and all over the country. And it was the same scenario, and I think it's because we've re we've really witnessed an evolution in the ministry world of a new branch uh emerging in the last 25 years. And I think part of it's related to not a great thing, but it's just a reality. 30 years ago, the average age of marriage was 24, 25. Right. There wasn't a need for a young adult ministry because you graduated and very quickly you would get married, and then you're plugged. You need a young married ministry, but you didn't need a single adult ministry that's going to exist from 22 because now the average age is 31. Right. And so we were in some ways just kind of the first to market that we were providing a space for young adults to meet and to gather. And God just touched it and it began to spread. And the same story from each of those churches was hey, I want to start a midweek gathering to reach lost young adults, but my church does Sunday school and I'm over that. So the only way I could do this is if somebody else was providing the teaching, because I got to lead the Sunday school model, but young adults are not coming to that. Can we stream you in? And it just continued to grow, man. And uh so we did that until 2022, then we accepted the rule.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Can I have questions on that? Uh and and I I don't want to derail from where you're going, but I I feel like this is something interesting that I'm seeing is there are so many churches that are trying to reach a generation that you did incredibly effectively for a long time. And I feel like there's some disconnects at times along the way. Um, that there's uh a lot of churches that fall into a category uh we will only teach on these things. And and I feel like and I'm saying this as someone older than you, uh, and knowing that the older we get sometimes the harder it is to connect and be relevant to rising generations because uh we are just older and different now than rising generations. But one of the things that it it it I I remember and I think is still true, is that for rising generations they're looking for real and authentic and practical. And I I think sometimes some of the ministry that I am seeing from people is the repetition of who Jesus is, which is so important, but there's not always a practical application of the life people are living. What did you guys discover, or do you see things today? Um because I'm thinking with so many people saying, Can you help us? And there's people uh like you mentioned uh with uh Pakuda, or uh we we could go down the list of some of our friends that are in ministry. Like we go to Josh Howerton, what's happening right now? And and Josh Howarton has openly said um that he had a revelation in 2021 that as he was watching some of what happened uh through the COVID and through some of the protests and the riots and things happening, and he saw some of his church responding certain ways, he realized he hadn't discipled them as well as he should have in some areas. And so he said, I I I I want to start helping them. And he mentioned uh that people began to challenge and be like, Why are you poking the bear? He says, I'm not trying to poke a bear, I'm trying to kill a bear. Yeah, because that bear is coming and consuming these sheep. Yeah and as a shepherd defending sheep, I want to kill this bear. Yeah, but he's become very, very bold. And and I think it's it's not coincidental that God has now just blown up what he is doing, his outreach, etc. That's what God did for you with the porch. And and I'm saying that connecting dots because one of the things that I had a chance to come once or twice uh and see you lead was super cool. But you were someone that was very real, you were very practical, you were very relevant with what you did. You reached them with the truth of the reality of the gospel for where they were, you challenged them to be more than they were. What do you think that maybe some local churches or some of the modern movement maybe is not getting as disconnected from some of what you experienced and maybe some of what you're seeing now?

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned a lot of it. Uh one of the hardest things I think in the preaching world and in the church world is fighting to be relevant to the lives of the people that you're shepherding. And when we hear relevant, I always joke, I don't mean uh I used to say skinny jeans, but now skinny jeans are out and it's baggy, is all that you know is relevant. I don't mean the style of clothes you wear. I mean it relates to my everyday life. It connects the dots. The easiest thing I think in preaching is study for me, is studying the text, reading commentaries, looking at the Greek. That's where a lot of preachers excel. They don't excel at connecting the dots to various life stages and various uh stereotypical examples that are in their audience. Of if you have a young adult ministry, of the graduating senior who's just trying to figure out where am I gonna go, I feel like I've been on this train my whole life, of first grade, second grade, third grade. Now the train tracks are running out and I don't know what to do. How do I connect this truth to their life? Or the single adult uh lady who desperately wants to be married, who's who's 28, and she thinks if I don't get married by 30, it's all over for me. How do I connect the truth from God's word to her life? Or to the young, uh seriously dating couple, or to the guy who's just here and he's wandered aimlessly and he wandered in from a bar and somebody invited him and he thought he was coming to a restaurant called the porch, and it's just actually a venue of young adults worshiping Jesus. How do I connect this to him? So I think fighting to be relevant, authenticity, I mean, people, this generation is so much more skeptical. I'm learning this even because Preston Wood, to finish my story, was at Watermark and Watermark Plano for 16 years and have joined another great church in town that God has done amazing things with. Um, but there is a bit of a generational, I'm learning an older generation and have been so around the younger generation for so long. And one thing that I'm realizing is the generation that's rising up, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, millennials, they're so inherently skeptical of institutions that you have to meet them where they're at, and you have to understand that you can say, read the Bible, and it's some people say it's been changed, but we stand on the word of God. When you say that, there's a generation who's going, wait, it's been changed? Who's saying it's been changed? And not only that, they're just inherently skeptical, and you've got to be authentic and meet them where they're at, and how this truth convicts you, or how you're struggling to live this out. And that they just can see through things in a way that um I don't even know if this directly connects, but here's an example of something that I would tell young pastors all the time man, I would never say that again. When I was growing up, people would use this philosophy of, hey, join us next week and bring a friend. Today, man, people just can see through that. They know what you're doing. When I hear that, I go, Oh, this isn't really about me. This is about your ego growing because we have more people here. And so that that's what I hear when you say that. And it just feels inauthentic, and I know what you're trying to do. Right. And uh, and I was coached, man, I would just make an amazing experience. And great. If you don't want to join us next week and you don't want your friends to be a part of it, cool. You don't like great things, but it's gonna be amazing for if there's 500, 5,000, or 50 people that are here, we're gonna have an awesome time. And I think they're just inherently, they just see through things in a way that that I don't know if older generations didn't. I think they were just more trusting in a way that this generation, especially on the heels of COVID, especially on the heels of financial collapse of 09, especially on all the stuff they've lived through, even the Iraq wars has has continued to foster skepticism in people. And by Iraq wars, I just mean for the longest time, I mean, uh after everything that happened on 9-11, uh, man, we were all for it. And we should go and we should go fight these wars and end terrorism. And then over the last 20 years, there's been more information that's come out that, hey, maybe, and thank God for all of the men who have served and and fought for freedom. I'm so grateful to live in the country with the men and women who have served and laid their life down. And while at the same time, there's been increasing skepticism sure over some of the decisions that were made, and now we're $38 trillion in debt. So I think we've got to address a generation by giving them truth, they're starved for truth. I remember one conversation I had with our exp at Watermark was um him saying, Hey, never stop hitting the hard truth. And I told him, Man, even if I had no motive other than to just grow the ministry, I wouldn't stop. Because strategically, there's there's a more, thankfully, today, strategically, that's what the audience is craving. Right. They're craving someone to say, Hey, your relationships are messed up because you're sleeping together. And she's not even really a believer. She says she is. They know that's true. And they want somebody to go, man, that's right. And I I need to stop looking at pornography and smoking weed and I need to get it together. And I they know that it's true. And they're looking for they they're the generation that grew up saying everybody gets a trophy. Yeah, you can do whatever you want. When they knew, man, I'm 5'8. I know I can't be a sinner for the Mavs or for the Spurs or for whatever. And so when you hit them actually with the truth and you do it in an authentic way, I think it appeals to something that they're this generation's hungry for.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Well, and I think we have we have seen the pendulum swing, and I say we, I because you've been in ministry for a long time, uh, but but I remember growing up as a kid born in the 80s um and going to different churches where there was a lot of hellfire and brimstone. Sure. And I think the pendulum swung from everybody's going to hell to Jesus loves you no matter what. Yeah. And it became very seeker friendly. And I think the reality is there's kids going, I just want something to help me in my everyday life. Yeah. And because they are, they are growing up realizing that we've been lied to, uh, we've been manipulated, right? There, there's propaganda. One of the things that I think uh even from 10 years ago, when President Trump uh really kind of popularized the slogan fake news, I think there's not a lot, uh not enough parents or pastors that recognize, hey, your kids are growing up with that understanding that they don't think they can trust anything. Yeah. Part of the problem though is part of where they you mentioned this, part of where they are being encouraged to show distrust is toward traditional institutions. Yeah. And even though some of that's healthy, part of the problem is part of the institutions they've been told not to trust are things like the church. Yeah, right. Things like the family, you know, your mom and dad, whatever else, and and things we would hope that we would go, no, no, these are the places you should go to looking for answers. And and and and this is something I want to get to in a minute. If you want to go there now, it's fine. But I would love to hear your thoughts on this pendulum swing. And do you think more pastors are getting this coming back? But then, follow-up, how do we help navigate when there's a lot of kids right now that are being pulled in so many different directions, whether it be our government or we could look at Israel or other nations? There's so many thoughts and feelings and opinions right now, and there's the rise of some of these social media influencers who position themselves as one way and then a different way, and now they're and and and they're influential in a lot of ways. So, how how do you navigate from inside the church? But then also, there's a lot of moms and dads and grandmas and grandpas going, my kids are believing crazy stuff. And it used to be that there was considerations if you went to a certain university, like, hey, that university's pretty woke. Be careful sending your kids there because they might come back believing crazy. Now the concern is not the wokeness of the university, it's social media that is now this fire hydrant of information that is pouring again a lot of propaganda dishonesty. And at times it's teaching them to ask dishonest questions, and they don't even know that it's being intellectually dishonest in the way that the question is being framed.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Um how do you navigate this?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yeah, you know, I think the pendulum is is we're it's a weird time, man. It's it's swung on both sides, right and left, in a weird way. Like there still is the woke um things that are are to go back to our friend Josh. He he had a phrase that I I just have ripped off. He probably ripped it off somebody too, that hey, that the church has to, when culture gets more theological, the church has to get more cultural. Or some people would say you're being too political. By that I mean when culture is shouting loud messages about gender, which is a biblical idea. Right. He created the male and female, or about marriage, which is something God created according to Jesus in Matthew 19, or about conception and life and things that those are very clearly historically speaking, people would recognize that those are theological issues. Those are not cultural issues of sports and entertainment and things like that. Those are theological issues. So as culture has gotten more theological, the church has to address those things with the same intensity that, or at least try to have the same intensity that everyone's being bombarded with constantly on they, them, and he, her, and just all of these theological issues. While at the same time, there's also it seems like an ever increasing, and you probably could speak to this better than I can, uh loud voices that are on the other extreme, like the Andrew. Tate and like the Groipers and like the um uh um uh Tucker and and uh they're throwing almost an overcorrection in their direction that is getting louder. And I think we also have to address some of that stuff, um whether it be on Israel or whether it be on Iran or any of those things that I think I think um, and this may not directly answer your question, I I think the church has to step up and give good answers. Like not to pick on Tucker, who I don't know from Adam. Uh however you feel about him, he's at he's raised some, I think, fair questions about Israel. Sure. And you can dismiss them and go, hey, whoever says bless me and I'll bless them. Yes, that's true. And also, we should address those questions that young adults, you can tell them, hey, you just have to believe it, and they're just not going to. They're gonna go, so do I have to support the current nation state? And I think there are great biblical answers for those things. We can get into them or not. And uh, so you've got to address both sides and bring truth with both, whether it's the woke that you know, gender is a construct, which is just not true biblically, or whether it is the hey, how do you support and what does it look like today to support? Does it be the modern nation state of Israel? And I think there's biblical answers to those. So if you can do it in an authentic, real way that gives people the truth. The other thing I think churches don't always do a good job of is being authentic. Man, when you blow it, just own it. Just bring it right out in the light and say, this is what happened, and we missed, and I want to authentically own that, whether it's in my own personal life of, hey, here's how I want to lead by example, authentically sharing how, man, I just blew up at my kids because I was stressed, or I didn't love my wife the way God calls me to love. I can own that individually, or if we miss it in terms of something that was a financial misfire or was whatever it is, I think you can earn institutional trust through owning and being authentic about where things haven't gone so well. So that's a really man, I covered a lot of ground. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Gropers to the woke to owning, you know. But but transparency and truth is a big deal. Huge. Because I I have more trust for someone that I know is gonna be honest with me, yeah, even though they're not perfect, yeah, than someone that poses as perfect and seems dishonest.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Right? And and so I again back to that authenticity thing. And I think too, you you raise such a really good point that the Bible has answers for us, but we have to go looking for those. But part of what you're kind of alluding to is that also means is if the church is going to be relevant, we have to know what questions culture is asking. And so, one of the things, if you read like the Pauline epistles, it it's so clear to see that Paul is not just saying, Hey, here's the theology and the doctrine of the Trinity, of the virgin birth. Like, no, he's saying, Hey, so uh for you church in Corinth, I've been hearing some things. Yes. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:52

The Church of Galatia, let's talk about some things real quick. He was very pointed and direct and relevant with what he was giving them because he's giving them cultural, practical, biblical guidance for what they are navigating, but he had to know number one what they were dealing with, which partly then includes maybe a like a sub point. He had to know what questions they were asking. And I think a lot of people don't necessarily recognize the questions that are being asked. And so let me back up to the fact that you were a leader at the porch, just an unbelievable college ministry, which by the way is still going and is still incredible. Amazing. Uh, and I want to come back to that in a second. But what did you do as you were navigating leading the rising generation? How did you navigate knowing, hey, here's the questions that are being asked, here's the stage of life they're in, here's the things culturally happening, here's what I needed to be relevant. What did you do strategically, personally, to try to make sure you could connect with them where they were?

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Yeah, I think the biggest focus that we would have, whether it was an event or or whatever series we were teaching, was how do we best shepherd this group and what they're walking through and what they're facing? So you got to have your your uh grip on the pulse of the culture around you, which means being somewhat of a student, as you're in the world not of it, on the issues that they're facing. When I started teaching at the porch, if we did a message on transgender, everyone would have had no idea what that meant. Because it was 2009. They would have been like, wait, is that transvestite? Is that which one is that again? Uh by the time I left the porch to go take a role as teaching pastor, man, it was everywhere. Yeah. I mean, it's such a short. So you got to have your grip on what issues they're facing, whether that's AI, whether it's and and how AI is creating a certain feeling within the workplace and a fear of losing my job, or the different dating apps. When again, when I started teaching, dating apps were a rare thing. You did dating apps if you were above 35, and and it was basically, hey, I'm really desperate. By the time I got done, man, if you're 25 and not on a dating app, you were the outlier. Like three-fourths of everyone was beating. How are you going to meet somebody? Exactly. That's exactly what it went. So you've got to know the um, we used to say you take the never-changing message to the ever-changing people, which involves being a student of, hey, here's where people are at, and here's the issues that they're facing today. And uh, and so I think it it really involves being a student. Some of that's staying in tune with the news, and and it also is staying in tune with your local um Barna does certain studies and they do great studies. My only criticism, or not even criticism, my suggestion for pastors is that they incorporate Barna, um, which has done great work, is to do so, but also do so through the lens of your own people. Because some of those Barna studies are done with such a wide spread of people that are in LA and Seattle and New York and Atlanta, and that's just different than Bible Belt Dallas, and it's gonna be different than Waco and different than Houston and different. So you've got to have your ear to the the pulse of uh, or not your ear, your fingers to the pulse of what's locally happening and what they're actually walking through in your specific location, and that just takes work, man.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah. Okay, so practical and silly, uh, but did did you ever consider, like, hey, so what is what's the verbiage right now? Like what words are they using? Um, or like you mentioned, like back when it was like, are we wearing skinny jeans? How much consideration did you have where you wanted to be relevant, but you want to be authentic?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

So, so how did you balance that?

SPEAKER_00 28:35

I would balance it, honestly, the way I balance the language thing was through humor. Yeah. Um, like I would, I would, in a loving, playful, and I spent enough time with them to where I think they knew, like, I love you guys. I'm here for I'm telling you dating advice from a biblical worldview for no benefit of my own, but because I really want to see you guys thrive and have successful marriages. So I I feel like I had earned the right to do what I did, which is I would, I would make fun of it. And I would, I would be in a lighthearted way, uh, joke about you guys have an ever-changing lexicon. I can't keep up. Like bet, thirsty, no cap. Who's making these things up? So I would I would incorporate it, but not in a way that was like like bet is a phrase that would be, I agree. You're not dropping it. I'm not dropping like, you know, bet Paul was there, bet. I'd be like, somebody told me bet. That that is not the way we used it growing up. I would I would try to be myself and be authentic. Um I I would um I would try to stay somewhat relevant in uh terms of dress. I I hate dress stuff, so that's just not my thing, but I would I would do it to the degree that was still authentically me. Like I wouldn't showing up trying to look like Justin Bieber and have just clothes, I don't even know where you buy clothes like that. But I I did try to fight to stay relevant while also being authentic to my my own age and my generation. And I think you can do that. Like sometimes pastors they'll be in their 60s and and they're dressing like Justin Bieber in a way that I don't know. I mean, I don't care that much, but uh sometimes it can feel to me a little inauthentic, and and I think it sometimes does to young adults too. But I think there's a way to at least know their lexicon and the language that they're using and the things that they're walking through and and engage with them in a way that's still authentic to being yourself.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Well, and the reason I asked this is because uh you are someone, um, even though in your humility you'd be like, I'm no expert. You're more of an expert than most people out there because God used you to lead one of the most, if not the largest, one of the most successful, again, probably largest college ministries in the nation. And so God gave you a some kind of gifting, skill, talent, ability. So we want to draw from it, like, okay, how do we learn and grow? And so I along those lines, I also recognize that what God allowed you to be part of, you built something that has sustained. And I want to talk about like, how did you do like what system did you put in place that now you have built something that is is transgenerational? It's passed on to the next generation that God's raising up to lead, the next minister that God has there. But also because you led so well, you know, probably again better than most moms and dads and grandmas and grandpas and most people out there, you know better what the rising generation is facing as challenges and they're having to navigate. So let's start there. What do you think are the big issues that they're having to navigate? And what are the ways that whether it's it's friends or it's the parents or grandparents, what are the things that people are navigating and what are the best ways we can help people as they're navigating those things?

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah, I mean, it really to go back to a lot of knowing your audience, it kind of depends. Even there was a book that came out that was maybe two or three years ago. It was like the end of generations. And it was basically the premise of the book is related to where I'm going with it, is is you had for forever, you had baby boomers and you had Gen X, and then you had millennials, and you had the greatest generation, and you had probably like, hey, these 10 years is this group, and this 10 years, and whoever's making these up, I don't know, anthropologists or you know, people studying these things. And the premise of the book was hey, eventually, because culture's moving so fast, there won't be enough uh uh distinctiveness or um similarity from the 10 years that millennials are from 82 to 92, whatever the breakdown is. It's moving so fast it'll be the end of generations. And that's relevant to the question because the person who's 23 graduating college right now is in a different seat than the person who's 27, despite the fact that they're relatively close in age in terms of the expectancy and fears they have about um AI, about the anxiety over uh what the future holds for them, about what jobs are gonna be there, about what jobs are available, the inflationary impact that's happening. I mean, those are real things for young people. They're real for all of us, but they're especially real for young people who are going, I just spent four years getting a degree that I don't know is even going to be of any value anymore. And I don't know that I'm gonna have any sort of job. And at the same time, I can't afford a home and there's a there's a housing crisis. And so I think knowing some of the financial fears, knowing the different things that are weighing on the generation, they're also simultaneously the generation that, for better or for worse, and there may come a day where we look at iPhones like or social media like like we now look at smoking, where, oh wow, that was really detrimental. And they have been infused since is maybe as long as they can remember with this technology, and it's created tremendous anxiety. I was with a girl last night who who I was praying, I was at the ports last night, and it was awesome. Got to see 4,000 young adults worshiping, uh just just pouring their heart out to God who was paused.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

4,000 young adults, not at a special event.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

This is a weekly Bible study.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

4,000 young people, which okay, so now I like we're gonna put a pin in my other thought of God is doing something really special with this rising generation. I'm gonna put a pin in that. I want to come back to it. Yeah. Because when 4,000 people are just showing up for a weekly Bible study, bro, something's happening. But so you were there last night.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

I was there last night, was teaching, and one of the girls who came down afterwards was just crippled with anxiety, and she's a normal-looking, young, pretty female, and and no one is there to walk alongside of her and give her hopeful things, biblical things, practical things as it relates to dealing with anxiety, while simultaneously she's walking through it all alone. She's only been in Dallas, which is often the case, for maybe three to six months. So she doesn't have a relational network that's there. And so the way you would address her is going to be different from the person who's been settled and has community and has deep relationships and is not wrestling with the same things. But I do think this generation is uh is crippled with anxiety and uncertainty. And the good news for us as pastors is we have biblical truths to counter those and help them practically take steps as it relates to whether that's financial concerns or or any different issue that they may be facing. And um so that would be one I would say is you gotta know those fears that you're not gonna have as a 55-year-old senior executive who's been established and is fine, or as a stay-at-home mom that that is not having to navigate the same things that your kids are walking through in such a um there was a study that was done that basically said from 2000 to 2012, the uh amount of change was three times the the previous 50 years combined. And that was before any of Netflix, Instagram, I mean, think about your world has changed from 2012. And all of that change can contribute to anxiety, and so I think helping our people not dismissing those things that they're walking through, because they're real, they may not be as real to you, but they're real to them, and helping them walk through and navigate those issues from a biblical perspective.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

So, what then questions might you suggest to help open that conversation? Because if it's like a mom and dad of friends, like I think my friend's bothered, I I I don't know what to say. What question would you suggest that might be like opening that lid a little bit to see what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 36:25

I think if you have a good relationship with them, then then walking and counseling and coming alongside and helping them navigate to get to the bottom of maybe let's say it is anxiety, helping them take steps to actually get to what they're anxious about. Like I'll use this girl. Um, and some of this I really learned from my wife who's a counselor and is far wiser than I am. But um, this girl was crippled with anxiety about work. And I just said, Man, let's use that as an example. And we had talked enough to to know that um I had gotten to know her a little bit uh with another young lady who was there helping us pastor her. I just said, What are you anxious about at work? She's like, if I don't perform well, I could lose my job. And what I did then, I I found to be a helpful tool specifically for anxiety, of just asking further what happens if you lose your job? Well then I'm not sure I'd be able to afford rent. What happens if you can't afford rent? Then I have to move back in with my parents. What happens if you have to move back in with your parents? Well then I I I would feel like I let them down and I had failed. Oh you're not really anxious about failing at work. You define being a failure as moving back in with your parents, which I don't think you actually do. In other words, have you ever heard of a story of somebody who had a small season or a long season that they had to move back in with their parents, and you wouldn't define their life as a failure? Of course. You're worried about some made-up pressure that you're putting on yourself that's making you anxious and probably contributing to you being less effective at work because you're afraid of some false definition of failure that you've created in your own mind without even realizing it. And so in that scenario, you're just helping them chase down and discover what they're actually being uh overwhelmed in their anxiety by. Uh, but if it was in terms of navigating career, I think it's always best, especially as pastors, to lean on what the Bible says when somebody's deciding between uh, should I move here, should I move there, and and helping them flesh out, well, hey, what are the things that biblically would inform this? Um, because it's not always uh most people just make a decision career-wise on money. I'm gonna take this job because it's an increase in pay. And that's not a biblical, that's not a biblically informed. I'm not saying you shouldn't take the job for uh increase in pay, but I that if that alone is the only reason, that's not a biblical perspective. How's it gonna affect your your church community, your community overall? How does it align with your gifts? Um, is this something that you feel like God would call you to and helping them navigate, you know, the different situations and that one specifically from a biblical perspective and get asked different questions to help them lead them there?

SPEAKER_02 39:02

So, so then as a parent, because I I grew up in the day when it was a lot of like, hey, put on your big boy pants.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Like you just kind of got to tough it out and muscle up and like don't be soft. And so I grew up in a little bit of that generation. And so for maybe parents that that's what they grew up in, and they see kids and they're like, anxiety, that's dumb. Yeah, you shouldn't have anxiety. Yeah, what would be your encouragement for uh maybe again, parents or grandparents that that are wanting to help navigate for their their children, their grandchildren that are feeling these pressures and they're looking going, this is not even real. What's wrong with you? Yeah. So how do you how do you have grace in that moment, even though you weren't you weren't brought up that way and you turned out fine, sure, all that. What would be your encouragement for them?

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Well, I think um dismiss knowing what doesn't work would probably be a starting point of like, hey, you can dismiss it all you want. It's it's it's not gonna help them, it's not gonna strengthen your relationship, they're not gonna appeal to you for advice. You could keep dismissing and saying that's not real. But I think asking good questions and being a student of your son or your daughter and learning the different things that they're going through and facing that you didn't face and asking how those are impacting and affecting them. Well, at the same time, I I think this is true. I've had this thought recently, probably more, I think more, than any other generation. For the very first time, we have an entire generation that grew up fluent in something, and they were the ones teaching their parents how to do it, which is different. For most of human history, it's the parents who you grow up on a farm and your dad teaches you how to ride a horse and he teaches you how to pull the oxen to, you know, I'm not a farmer, so I'm a butcher. Yeah, the plow to harvest the crops, and and he teaches you. And now we have this whole generation that is so fluent in technology, and they've been the ones instructing their parents who use giant font and don't know how to do things. And I don't know how that's contributed to the barrier and the breakdown, just kind of the gap between these two generations. But I think it's contributed some, and I think both can benefit and help one another. But I think as a parent, you've got to have the humility to go, man, they're experiencing and facing things that I never had to face at a time that is unlike any other time, maybe in world history. Who knows how AI revolution will, you know, 20 years from now we'll go, whoa, um, was that as much as the Industrial Revolution or the social media revolution? And I think asking good questions and and helping uh your your kids understand what they are feeling, and further just understand what are they facing and what are their fears that that are going on in their heart. And that's not always easy. I mean, it certainly isn't for me. I'm I I it takes a lot of work for me to understand feelings and to get to understand my own feelings. And so I think it just takes time and and being intentional as you help them navigate and you learn what they're navigating.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Well, and I wanted to ask you because you spent more than a decade dealing with kids largely in some of those overlapping seasons. Um and for some parents, it's like I got one shot at my kid in this season, and so I wanted to pick your brain a little bit, but also knowing that as parents, um, I I have two beautiful girls. I love being their dad. You have kids, but I watched you navigate something. Um, and and I watched from afar. Uh I was on social media. I I sent you a message one time uh saying I was praying for you. Um, but you navigated something that no parent wants to go through. Um and and and not to like put the cart before the horse, um, but you had to go through the loss of a child. Um will you tell some of that story? But I I want to tie it back into, and I want to tell part of this a little bit of what I saw of how God used your vulnerability. And you talk about when you're leading the next generation, right? They they care about authenticity. And and you could not have been more vulnerable than you were, um, which was just mind-blowing to me. Um, your your courage, your humility that you were you were walking people and allowing people to walk through the story with you, um, which again, crazy, but will you tell part of that story, uh, and then I want to brag on you a little bit at the end.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Man, well, thank you. Um part of why let me tell some of the story and then um downplay some of the vulnerability. Um, because at some level, based on my job and based on uh just our life, we didn't we realized early on we don't really have a choice. We either go secluded for the next two years and face this alone, or because my job is to speak in public, we just we just run at it. And the story that he's talking about is in 2022, we found out 2023, I'm sorry. We found out we were pregnant with our fourth child. Um we have currently Uh, two boys and a girl, and we found out we were having another girl and surprise baby, and you kind of go through that roller coaster of emotions and you eventually get excited, and we're having another girl. And we knew her name was gonna be Lottie Moon, Lottie Moon Marvin, because when this is so it sounds silly when I say it. When I we had our third child, a son, we were convinced it was a girl, and I don't know why. And so as we brainstormed names, we came up with Laddie Lottie Moon Marvin, in part because of the missionary, um, and then in part because someone in our family had the name Moon. And we just thought, man, that's that is the one. We hope that she lives at her faith. Then it finds out we're having a boy, and we're like, oh, we need to come up with a boy name. So a year and a half later, we discover, oh, we're pregnant again, and we thought, oh man, God really did want to have a Lottie Moon Marvin. And so we're gonna um have another little girl. And about four months into that pregnancy, there were some markers that came up and the ultrasound that were a little concerning, but nothing conclusive and nothing crazy. And we we've been through that, just as any parent has. And then six months in, we found out that um she, with a very high degree of certainty, and it turned out to be true, had a chromosomal disorder called Trisomy 13. And a majority of trisomy 13 babies um don't live. But one of the more difficult realities of that diagnosis was the spectrum of potential outcomes is actually very broad. And so you're forced in that season that was marked by prayer and tears and and just confusion and sadness and uh trying to lead your kids who are so excited about having a daughter, and how do you prepare their hearts for, hey, we may not get much time with her, while also facing questions that that um God never intended us to face, um, and are just a part of a broken world. Questions like, man, is it better to bury a three-day old or a three-year-old? Because there's trisomy 13 babies that uh are in hospice until they're 11. I mean, it's it's just heartbreaking. But that's what I mean by questions that are just you weren't created to ask, you know. And um, and so we prayed and fasted and asked God for a miracle, and she was born and she was beautiful. She looked like all our other kids, which was also bizarre. She was full term, she was fully healthy. No, I'm sorry, fully in terms of weight, healthy size, and and we thought, man, maybe we're gonna have longer with her than we thought, because oftentimes trisomy children you can tell physically, and she just looked like all of our other kids. We make one brand of kid. And and we got to spend a hundred minutes with her, and and then at the end of that, her heart stopped beating, and she went from being in our arms to the arms of Jesus. And um, and that was a such a heartbreaking, hard probably for six months, um, it was just really, really hard. I mean, questions that you know the theological answers to, but at the same time are are just for me, and maybe this will be encouraging to anyone who's walking through grief, theological truths that I would have thought provided comfort were almost more painful. Things like, oh, she's not with us, but she's with Jesus in heaven, he's holding her. Was now it's more of a salve, but at that time it was like, yes, she's all alone without her parents. And you know that she's not all alone and she's with you, but still that she's she's separated from us. And why would God why would God even have you give birth to a baby that's gonna live a hundred minutes? And that should we have done you you begin to go through all the stages of grief or the questions of like, man, did we do everything that we could have? And just it was a very difficult, challenging thing. And as we navigated that, um simultaneously, and I don't even know if I I've talked to you about this, I went back to teach four months later, and every time that I preached, I began to have a panic attack. Wow. And I've never had a panic attack in my life before that. I didn't even know what was happening. I thought like my I I was just like, what is happening right now? My body would just shake in revolt. And I I had never, and prior to that, I I've joked with churches or places that I've spoken that um I through that season I would ask, like, have you ever had a panic attack? And people would go, Man, if I I don't know. And I'd go, then you haven't, you would know. Um, because it's a little bit like um being hit by a bus. If somebody said, like, have you ever been hit by a bus? I'd be like, Have I been hit by a bus? You would know. Has an elephant ever stepped on your chest? Has an elephant like you would know, and and it grew a lot of my empathy and compassion for people that have of that a part of their story. And turned out I ended up going to see someone who who um connected the dots for me that post-traumatic induced panic attacks is can be a thing. And I I had no idea, but even my compassion for inexplicable experiential things that people may be walking through that are that are entirely real, and God was gracious and helped us work through that and and grew our ability to minister and pasture people in a way that I I hoped I was pastoral and empathetic and caring. But when you walk through on the other side of that, your ability to minister to people who have lost in that way just it just changes. It changes how you minister. And God was growing our um even that season of losing the ability to teach, He was refining something in me that uh I wouldn't want to do again, and yet I see his hand on it of man, God, you're taking away a daughter, and now you're taking away even my ability to do the only thing that I don't I don't know how to do very much. Um like teaching is kind of the only thing that I've done, and I don't even know how good I am at that, but it's at least something I could do. And now you're taking that away, and it was as though he was just saying, Man, and am I enough? Am I enough? If if if that is taken away, am I enough? And it it led to a place of getting where uh we could say, Yeah, you are. And along that journey, he's graciously allowed us to get back to um, I don't even know if normal is the right word, but the ability to use communication to encourage people again and even use our story. But that journey, grief, the other thing that we learned is it just knows no playbook. So the way it impacts one person is not gonna be how it impacts another person. And um, that you've got to give your yourself grace to move through even the stages of grief. I I probably shouldn't have said because, in my opinion, having walked through my experience, would say stages implies almost progression.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Like you worked all the way through and then you've gone through resolution, and that's just not how grief works. It's two steps forward, one step back, and and you don't really ever fully progress. I think you can grow individually and grow in your uh relationship with God and with others and grow through that pain, but it you never fully progress out of that, just as anyone who's walked through significant loss of a child, of spouse, or just anything. And um, so I think he used that entire thing really to deepen and to grow areas, even in our marriage and my life as a pastor, that I I wouldn't have chosen, but I can see in hindsight his hand at work.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

Well, one of the things I I do want to brag on you for is not only your your courageous vulnerability in the midst of that, um, but one of the the parts of the testimony that uh I mean, my wife and I uh we were reading your posts, um, every update you had, we were praying for you, we were crying with you, um, and just going, man, God, bless these guys. You know, just at someone who's a parent, right? When there's somebody else and you're just it's it's very relatable on some level when you have kids similar ages and stages and you're going, oh my gosh, like it could wreck you different. But the fact that you were showing that you so trusted in the goodness of God, the sovereignty of God, that that even though you had some choices you could make that you knew you weren't really the one writing the story, and you were trusting the one who was writing the story. Yeah. Because one of the things that that you had on full display that I know just from the reality of life is there would have been doctors going, hey, you know what, guys, at six months in, we we know what's happening. Yeah, we can save you some heartache and grief if you just abort this child now.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Yeah, oh, totally. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

And and and I mean, actually, we're living in an era where it wasn't just very long ago. There's been a pretty big story about some social media influencers who got pregnant and then found out, oh, this child might not be exactly what we want. Well, we're gonna abort the child. That is something that is promoted as a viable option. And the fact that you rested in your faith where you know that, hey, God is the one who creates life. Yep, that God is a good God. And even though we might not always enjoy and like the moment, and there's brokenness and there's sin in the world, and so that's not saying that like God wanted this to happen, but we are trusting in the sovereignty and goodness of God in the midst of brokenness and knowing that Romans 8 28 is true. Yes, even if we don't always feel it in the moment, that God's gonna use good from this. But watching you faithfully walk through that, um, I as someone on the outside watching, bro, your testimony was so strong in that moment. Um, and I know that doesn't alleviate uh some of the heartache or the hurt or the pain, as you mentioned, even with grief, like it uh we've talked to many people um navigating the loss of spouse, kids, whatever else, and they talk about me, it's it's waves, yeah, right? Like some days you're like, I'm grave, and then the next day it's like, oh, here comes this fresh ocean wave in, and you're like, I am not good. Yeah, totally. And so knowing that you had to navigate that, but doing it so boldly with your faith, it was such an incredible testimony. Um, and and then knowing that there's people, I mean, you kind of mentioned it, sharing it, that there's people going through grief right now.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Um, so so how did you maintain your trust and belief in God? I think sometimes we read some of the Psalms, and depending on life situation and scenarios, not everybody can always relate with some of like what David wrote in the Psalms.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

But there's sometimes you're like, that psalm is real for me right now. Yeah, totally. The frustration, the upset, God, where are you? How did you navigate and maintain your faith in the midst of heartache and frustration and loss where you had to be going, God, look, I I've been serving you.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

I've been teaching and preaching for you.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Why would you do this? Totally. How did you navigate it?

SPEAKER_00 55:03

You know, somebody told me something as I was describing what we were walking through, and just you're you're confronted with all these questions about why would God want this? And as I was saying that, my friend, who's very um strong in his faith and is a pastor and great friend, was like, God doesn't want this. Like, God wants a lot of you here with you. That that simultaneously can exist while he's also sovereign. Like the heart of God can still exist. And something that surprised me is I've been asked, hey, what grew the most in your relationship with God through that season? And it was, it's one I would have never guessed, and it was his compassion. And I would come back to over and over this story I've taught a ton of times of the moment in John 11 where Jesus is outside of the tomb of Lazarus, and he had delayed going to Lazarus because he had known he was dead and he wanted to give some time because he knew he was going to raise him to life, and he shows up outside of that tomb, and I've preached on this, but it just popped in a new way. And he knows, Jesus knows I'm about to raise this man from the dead. He goes up and they're having a funeral, and Jesus knows I'm about to call him back to life, and all this crying that's happening will be no more. But he looks at all the tears around and it says he began weeping. You know, we all know it, it's the shortest verse in the Bible, but he's weeping, and you sit there and you go, Why are you weeping? Like you know you're about to raise him from the dead. And I think it's because he knew better than anyone that death was never meant to be a part of the world that we live in. He knew he is the only one that was at that funeral that knew a world without it. And he knew that this was not how I was created to be. I wasn't, uh the world was not created, and sin entered in, and now we live in a different reality. But originally, God's design was not that people would stand at the funeral of their brother and weep over him dying. And that perspective on his compassion while also being sovereign and knowing all that would happen and take place, for whatever reason, minister to me in a different way. That yes, God is sovereign and he allowed and things go through his hands, while at the same time, God's heart breaks to see his children grieving and weeping, and his heart is for us to be restored back together. The other thing that that I think was was a encouragement, and this may um, this is my opinion. I remember reading in Isaiah 64 and in Daniel 11, or no, Daniel 12, and it there are these two passages where it describes the new heavens and the new earth. And so if you tune out and and you disagree, whatever I'm about to say, it's it's uh according to Paul, heaven is something that no eye has seen, no ears heard, no mind can conceive of what the Lord has prepared for those who love him. So it'll be even better than what I'm about to say. And so, but I remember reading this passage, and it was about the new heavens and the new earth. And it's a passage you're very familiar with. Everyone who's been in church knows the passage where it talks about, hey, in that day the lion will lay down with the lamb. And and then it transitions and it brings up a child, and it says that a little child, and the word there that it's used, it's weaned child, which is a toddler basically, will lead them both by a rope. And then it says, the infant will stick its hand in the viper's den and the adder's nest uses two different snakes, and it will not be harmed. And I read that and know that passage, and usually my mind when I read Lion Lay Down with the Lamb, I'm like, does that mean there won't be steak in heaven? You know, that's where my mind goes, but because of what had happened this time, I was like, why is there a child in the new heavens and the new earth? And why is there a toddler and why is there a baby, an infant? And I think the most logical explanation based on the character of God, because we know that Jesus is asked in heaven, uh, Am I going to be married to my first wife or second wife or third wife if somebody's been married three different times? And he says, in heaven, there is no marriage, and no giving in marriage. So if there's no marriage, which is the context for which children are created, it wouldn't make sense for children to be created in the new heavens and new earth. Probably the most logical explanation would be that children who pass at a young age from this life into the next are the children that are represented there. I've always thought of when you get to heaven, you'll walk around the streets of gold and everyone will be like 30, like the age of when Jesus' ministry started, or somewhere around whatever the peak is. Some people think it's starts to hurt a lot. Exactly. Like you're gonna see grandpa, but it won't look like grandpa. It'll he'll be a young, you know, not honched over in a wheelchair. He'll be young him. And I, for whatever reason, my mind had thought, oh, and I guess children will kind of fast forward to that age, which I don't think is true. I think the most logical explanation is children who passed. And especially for parents who are believers who have children who passed, who go through the unique, heartbreaking pain of losing a child in this life, will get the unique, indescribable joy of getting to raise a child, only to do so in an environment where there is no pain, there is no sin, there is no heartbreak, there is nothing that could harm that child. And they'll get the joy of getting to raise their uh child in a in a way that they didn't get to do so here. Yeah. And the reason I started where I did is like, let's say, let's say I'm wrong. Well, if my mind can conceive of that, it's only gonna be better. So whatever it is, it's even better than that. And that that was a uh a truth that really ministered to us in that time. Yeah. So and then I think community, having people around you that you lean on, that are caring for you, that that really carry you when you you just can't um that are providing meals, or people would show up and do laundry. I mean, they would just send us, you guys just need to go on a date night. And I mean, it was huge.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Well, this is also where when I talk to people and they're like, Well, I'm a Christian, but I don't need to go to church, and I'm like, you are missing one of the most significant, like when when the author of Hebrews says, Do not forsake the assembling together of ourselves. There were lots of reasons for that. But one of the things the Bible also, I think with Solomon in Proverbs, um, wrote that he who isolates himself seeks his own destruction. Yeah. Like that there, there's a reason strategically, militarily, sometimes you would isolate and then you destroy, right? Like that that's a real tactic. The idea that no, we're I'm good by myself. I I think about often in context of this of like, what happens when something goes wrong?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:32

And you have nobody.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Nobody, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:34

That's able to come. Like for the Moses, as the Israelites are fighting, and God says, as long as his hands are in the air, and you gotta have your Aaron and her that can hold up your hands. Totally. And I'm like, my hand, my arms are tired, somebody hold them up for me, right? And I know that's like a a Bible nerd story that maybe not everybody knows, but the reality is if you look this up, the reality of the Bible seems to indicate that if if you don't have people around you, yeah, you cannot be as successful as you would be by having the right people around you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

A thousand percent. I mean, that that's one of the biggest provisions God gives us is other believers in our life. That the idea, I mean, young adults will say all the time, like, man, I love Jesus, I don't love the church. And I always think, man, that's so biblically a foolish thing to say, partly because the church is described as a bride of Christ. So you're saying, I love Jesus, I just don't like your fiance. I mean, what what healthy engaged couple would allow that? That if you met a guy and he was engaged and you said, I don't, man, you're awesome. I just don't like your fiance. She's a little much. That that him being like, Oh yeah, man, I agree. Um, you'd be like, that's concerning. And um, and it's such an insult. And so church hurt is real, and I'm not trying to dismiss that, but at the same time, man, don't give up on the church and being connected because Jesus loved the church.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:53

Hurt is real, like the church should hurt you. People in the church are right, like, no, people hurt people. That's right. And to blame it on, in this case, like the bride, the body of Christ, you you have miss you've misappropriated where the blame should go. We've all been offended by people, but that doesn't mean that you should give up on something that God created. Yeah, like maybe if you're being tempted to give up on it, you should. That's maybe where John was like, hey, don't believe every spirit. Yeah. Like, check, is that from God? Because God's not the one encouraging you not to go to church. That's right. If you get offended and you're like, I shouldn't go, that's not from God. Yeah. That is entirely opposite of what God would tell you. Yeah. Um, okay, I know you got to preach tonight, so I want to land this plane. I put a pin in something earlier. I want to pull that pin out because you've been working with the rising generation for so long. Real quickly, I am encouraged, thinking that God is doing something special and unique. As we study history, we can track that every 20, 30, 40 years, there's a major pouring of God out. And often it happens with rising generations. Uh, what do you see? And are you encouraged? Do you think, and again, full disclosure, I fully believe not only are we in a revival, I think it could be another awakening. And we teach at times where awakenings are different than revivals because of some of the cultural impact of what happens. I think that clearly God is on the move, that God is reaching the rising generation in a new and unique way, and this revival could turn into an awakening. But what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

Man, I sure hope so. I mean, I think there's a unique energy that's going on in the church, particularly among young adults, and even more specifically among young men, where they're returning to Jesus, they're reading their Bible, they want truth, and I I mean, it it seems to be that the kindling, the one upside of COVID and all the craziness of the riots and everything, is it felt like Satan is called the Prince of the Power of the Air. So Prince of the domain around us. It felt like he showed his hand too much, and it created almost the kindling that could lead to the sparks of revival bringing that fire to our nation or to our world more broadly. So I certainly hope so. And I think every church or or anybody listening, the thing to leverage as it relates to young adults is every major revolution outside of even the church, but specifically inside of the church, every revival was had at the epicenter of young adults. It's young men and women who come and serve and leverage their lives to serve Jesus. I mean, it happened with Edwards. We think of these guys as old men, and they just weren't. I mean, I think Edwards was 28 at the time. That they were men who had devoted themselves in a young age and they were serving Christ. And the same with D.L. Moody, and the same with even Billy Graham, whenever he started his tent revivals. And so I think uh utilizing opportunities to unleash the next generation, to learn from them, to let them serve, to let them lead, to empower them, disciple them, pour into them, and then unleash them and let them serve and to use their gifts. So my answer would be I certainly hope so, and have prayed for it, and I I see fruits of it all over us. Um, but It's not, it won't stop me from continuing to pray for God to move and spark revival.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

Amen. Okay, I have to land the plane only because of the time frame. Uh, there's so many more things I want to talk to you about. But before I let you go, one question I ask every guest is if you could give one piece of advice to anybody listening, regardless of age or stage, what would you give as an encouragement or piece of advice for anybody listening?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

Oh man, the one that came to mind, I'm trying to make sure it's the right one. I mean, beyond trusting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, which, you know, check. Do that for sure. Like start there. Um, whatever your worst decision in life, I may not know it, but I know that will be the best decision you can make in life. Um, I think it it's hard to overstate the importance of whether you call it community or your close relationships or those who are around you. I mean, especially for young people, who you run with is going to determine what you run towards. And if you're not running with the right crowd, you know, you're gonna run in the wrong direction. I I I I show all the time who you marry is gonna be directly shaped and impacted by the the closest young, if you're a young woman, closest women that are in your life, or if you're a young man, the men that are in your life, because they're gonna influence who you're looking for and what you value and when you should break up and and how you should handle, you know, things that God says are reserved for marriage, like sex, and um, and across the board. And so, especially in this time, uh, especially if you're young and old, I mean, 80% of your major life decisions are made by age 35 for most people of where you're gonna work, where you're gonna live, who you're gonna marry. And so having the right counsel and guidance, both from an accountability and peer standpoint and also from a mentor standpoint, is really hard to overstate or to say is too much or to not prioritize enough. And so one of the ways you do that and discover that or find that is by making sure you're connected and a part of a local church. So I think that would probably be the one that I'd say.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:56

I love it. Yeah, and I think probably uh there's a lot of overlap and truth, even if you're the mom and dad, right? Where there's moms hanging out with people and you're like, they're not encouraging you to godliness right now. Yes. Like, who is your group of friends, your dads, like the you know, who you're hanging out with on the weekends? It's such solid advice, regardless of age or sage. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

Man, love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:16

David, thanks so much for hanging out today, man. Dude, I'm sure. I sure appreciate it. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

So I love what God's doing through you and through the whole team.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:22

And so thanks for having me. Thank you. So, everybody else, thank you for hanging out with us today on the American Story Podcast. I'm gonna remind and encourage some of the things that David encouraged us today uh that stood out to me. I I would say make sure that if we're navigating, seeing friends and we're like, man, I think they're having a hard time, have an honest conversation. Hey, what's going on? Try to try to reach in and see if we can help and navigate and ultimately knowing that the word of God has the best solutions for anything going on, also knowing that where do you get the word of God? It largely should be in our daily relationship, but certainly go to church. Make sure you are connected in that community. As he was telling about his story, and and again, amazing testimony of what God helped them overcome as they're navigating this grief and still dealing with it. Had it not been for the community around them, it would have been a lot harder for them. Make sure you are surrounding yourself with the right community, and that's part of his advice at the end. Have the right people around you because the people you surround yourself with, they are helping determine the trajectory of where you're going. Surround yourself with the right people. Until next time, thanks for hanging out on the American Story Podcast. Hey guys, new book coming out. Actually, it's available for pre-order sales on Amazon.com, but July, nope, June 23rd. Confusing me with the JUs. June 23rd, it is live for sale, wallbuilders.com. This is a book on the 56 signers of the declaration. Most of us, we've heard of their names, we don't know their stories. And really, we don't recognize how much these men were motivated by their faith, their courage, and sacrifice they gave. You need to get to know these guys. Go to wallbuilders.com to get it on June 23rd. Or if you want to pre-order, you can go to Amazon.com and get a pre-order now. It's called Lives Fortune Sacred Honors, Signers of the Declaration.