True Friends

Episode 16: Should I stop watching reality TV?

• Kate Vancil & Elizabeth Bradshaw • Season 2 • Episode 16

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Kate and EB debate the ethics of reality TV. For today's episode, we watched Reality Check: America's Next Top Model, the documentary on the infamous reality show. We discuss our opinions and experiences and land on some hard truths about the reality of reality TV.

Sources:

Questions? Compliments? Criticisms? Email us at: truefriendspod@gmail.com

SPEAKER_00

I'm done breastfeeding, we can go do that together. Great.

SPEAKER_01

We're gonna be gassified and then we're gonna go on reality TV and then we'll make a and then we'll make our podcast famous.

SPEAKER_00

Uh then our podcast will finally be famous and we can get an ad with Rise of True Podcast. Hi, and welcome to True Friends. And every day after the podcast, it's coming our hot take on Modern Foods. Computer acting about hard food the way of true friends.

SPEAKER_01

I'm B, a part-time writer, full-time lesbian, and member of the Heart of Hearing community.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm Kate, a licensed therapist, first-time mom, and newly employed. Okay, you're newly employed.

SPEAKER_01

How does it feel?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I love not working. Um, but you were so excited to go back to work, I feel like. I know. I was excited to use like my adult brain again, but But now you're tired of it? I just like we're all just meant to rest, right?

SPEAKER_01

Like at the end of the day, like I think you I don't think it's the work that you mind.

SPEAKER_00

I I think I want to be able to like do good in the world, I guess, but yeah, I also think that I don't like like the tediousness of a lot of things that are in like our modern day tech world. Um, and so I feel like I get really like caught up in how meaningless that feels sometimes. The tech part of it. Like, I just feel like uh every job is fake, you know? Like all jobs are useless and that is well, our jobs are fake.

SPEAKER_01

The jobs of plumbers and truck drivers are not fake.

SPEAKER_00

Like the actual true labor of this world, that's the only useful jobs there are.

SPEAKER_01

I agree, and and besides like making sure that that's organized and on time, there's no other jobs we need to be taking this seriously.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And so, yeah, so something like that.

SPEAKER_01

I also have a fake job.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the minutiae of it all really gets to me.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But anyways, um, the hard of hearing part of your intro. Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you agree. Yes, when we were getting drinks the other night, yeah, I was like, I can't I have to leave because I couldn't hear you. You couldn't hear me enough.

SPEAKER_01

I couldn't hear it once you were saying let's just get on a phone call. If there's any ambient noise, I'm I'm pretty cooked. I really one day when they have like the subtitles in your glasses, which I feel like they low-key already do. I mean, yeah, that's what I'm gonna fall for because I need subtitles for everybody.

SPEAKER_00

That's how Meta will finally get you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they're gonna be like, we're gonna take advantage of your disability. I mean, are they not already?

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01

By the way, everybody, I'm back on social media.

SPEAKER_00

I knew you were, I didn't call you out, but I was like, I'm not gonna say anything, but I low-keyed.

SPEAKER_01

You weren't gonna call me out on the pod?

SPEAKER_00

Not on the pod, not in person. I was I was gonna wait for you to calmly out yourself. Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, it was a conscious choice, but it is really funny because the last time we recorded, I was like, I'm so bad for you. And that's the point, is that there's you know, there's right and wrong, but sometimes you just don't know what to do. How long did how long did you last? Um I think like a month. That's pretty long. Yeah. Yeah. It was a it was a significant detox period, and I am gonna try to approach it more thoughtfully. I did talk about it in therapy. Great. I know your therapist loves you. She said completely deactivating my Instagram was a little dramatic. Did she give you that feedback a lot? Uh no. How dare you? That's so rude. But also, we are rebranding, so if you've been with us since day one, um, then you'll know because you'll see the rebranding. But if you're just discovering the podcast now, then should be totally seen. Nothing's ever happened. Nothing has we never changed the name or the structure of the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

So speaking of restructuring, we're also gonna be a little bit lighter this week, which I'm excited. I I mean, okay, yes, it's gonna be There was some dark there's some dark shit out there, but yeah, I think overall we're gonna make it a bit lighter. I'm gonna be lighter than some of the Yeah, don't speak for me. It's only gonna be lighter than some of our other topics that we have. I was gonna say you should give a trigger warning.

SPEAKER_01

As always, we want to provide a disclaimer that we are two white women with our own experiences of identity and privilege, and we recognize that this positionality gives us blind spots when it comes to these discussions. That being said, this is not a both sides podcast. You will never hear us debating human rights, defending billionaires, and even Taylor Swift, or justifying hate.

SPEAKER_00

And a quick trigger warning: this episode we will be discussing or touching on sexual assault, exploitation, racism, eating disorders, and mental health. So do we need episode? So do we need to do take care of yourself? Do do do do do Alright, are we on court or are you just gonna No we're recording?

SPEAKER_01

We'll leave all this in.

SPEAKER_00

So, yeah, fast forward, take a break, turn it off. That's all okay. Um just don't unsubscribe.

SPEAKER_01

Who is subscribed? There are several people subscribed, okay. According to the Buzz Sprout stats.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I'm sure. Um and if you couldn't tell by all those trigger warnings, we're actually gonna talk about reality TV. Yeah, yeah, everyone's favorite topic. I actually do spend it is everyone's favorite topic. I spent a lot of time talking about reality TV. Yeah, I think a lot of people do. Yeah. Um so I made us both watch reality check inside America's next top model, and I'll be sending my opinion uh on the ethics of the topic.

SPEAKER_01

And I will be disagreeing with your opinion and playing devil's advocate, whether or not I truly agree. I'm just gonna try to sabotage your your standpoint. My argument.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, before we kind of get into like the history of reality TV, what is your current like not maybe not stance, but like how do you feel about reality TV and like what do you watch?

SPEAKER_01

How do you feel like I watch a little reality TV? I would say I was not a big reality TV person, but my girlfriend is a little more into it, and she's introduced me to some shows. She watches a significant amount. Um, and I what's a significant, like 10 plus? Well, no, just saying like I will be watching a sitcom and she would be watching reality TV. Yeah, like we would make different choices, probably. Right now she's watching Traitors, so she'll tell me about it.

SPEAKER_00

You boy. I bring up traitors later in the episode.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I haven't seen it. I also haven't seen Love is Blind, but she she watches that too. And then I, as you know, I became very into Love Island in the very summer, and I needed to talk about it. I was like bringing it up with everybody.

SPEAKER_00

There's a woman at my work who looks like Amaya Papaya. Really? And I'm like, you're stunning.

SPEAKER_01

Amaya kind of looks like Cardi B, I feel like.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can see it. Um, but that I feel like that was one of the best seasons of Love Island.

SPEAKER_01

Like, yeah, I've heard season six was great, and I'm like, is it crazy if I go back and watch?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely not. I also highly recommend Summer House. Okay. Um, you you should definitely like about it. It's the drama is like unmatched in some ways, but they actually also genuinely all care about each other. And so, like, I don't need to see that. I know the the inviting needs to be really deep. Um and we'll get into that. But I feel like they like they're all real people with their own careers and their own lives, and this is just a group of people they rent out a house in the Hamptons together, um, and they go there every weekend, but during the week, like they're they're just living their normal lives. But it just films them on the week on the weekend, and like I feel like interesting the relationships that develop over the course of like those seasons are a lot more like nuanced. That is something that I like could get me in.

SPEAKER_01

They're like, You get to hang out at this house. I'm like, okay, that sounds pretty chill.

SPEAKER_00

I will also say there is like some queer conspiracy theories about some of the castings. Well, there are always queer conspiracy theories. I know, but these I could feel could be founded. Ooh, yeah. Well, I'm interested. So, anyways, Summer House is like one of my faves for sure. I'm watching the Secret Lives of Mormon once. Oh, yeah, I watched that one too. And she's gonna be The Bachelorette.

SPEAKER_01

I just I know, I am gonna watch that season of The Bachelorette.

SPEAKER_00

I know, and I actually have kind of like stopped watching Bachelor and Bachelorette. I watched it like Yeah, I'm not a huge fan. I I saw one season and I was like, Yeah. I think I watched it a little bit in college and I was just like, we don't need more women fighting premieres attention. Like that's it's kinda it's a little boring, but it is a little boring, right? I also can't remember any of their names.

SPEAKER_01

And the I'm not if it the guys do not look cute at all this season. No, she's definitely going back to Dakota. I know.

SPEAKER_00

I do think they're gonna end up together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, end up is a strong word. I think they'll be in and out for the rest of their lives. Literally the rest of their lives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Anyways, let's get into the history of reality TV. So it actually started in the 1940s. Can you believe that? No, that's sad. Is it? Yes. This is a way maybe where we disagree. I don't maybe think reality TV is like is as harmful as maybe as I think it is. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Um so it started with Candid Camera, um, where they secretly filmed pranks. So kind of like the Ashton Kutcher, like what was that one called? Uh man, I I it's all I can think of is Ashton Kutcher, but I'll look it up. You keep talking about it. But really, what was considered like modern reality TV was when the real world came out. Um Punked. Punked. That's actually a great name. I can't lie. Yeah, Punked is a good name. Yeah. But anyways, The Real World. Did you did you watch that or have you seen it? I also have not watched it. I've never heard of The Real World. Really?

SPEAKER_01

No, I'm just kidding.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to True Friends. Um, so I feel like that's when we really started to get like the constant filming of people's lives and experiences. Um, so people were all kind of like in one house together and like you were con they were constantly being filmed, constantly being observed. It's also where producers really started to like focus on cultivating a storyline that keeps audiences engaged and sometimes at the cost of the reality stars. Are there any shows that like come to mind to you that like you really think about like the exploitation of the reality stars?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I feel like I feel like The Bachelor and The Bachelorette are pretty exploitative, and there's a lot of reality TV that I haven't seen because of that. Also, it also makes me think of the like a thousand pound sister or anything that's really dwelling on like somebody's insecurities and weaknesses, which a lot of it is like competition stuff that's based on your appearance, which we're gonna get into. Yeah, yeah. I'm not really a huge fan of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I I think the like bachelor, bachelorette, that also comes to mind to me a lot. Do my research, Love is Blind has actually been like sued multiple times by the past, like I don't know what they call them participants or contestants or whatever, yeah, for like workplace abuses essentially. Um I also think about it like I always thought that reality stars got paid, and a lot of them don't. Or they get paid less than minimum wage. What?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, why would you do it then?

SPEAKER_00

I think in today's times, right, like to be an influencer and to like get profit in that way. Like look at Alandria.

SPEAKER_01

That's dark to me. Like you go on reality TV to be an influencer, like how depressing. Is it more depressing than just trying to be an influencer? Period. They're equally depressing. Okay. I think I mean I that that's what I mean. Influencers to me are very, very depressing. The reality TV is depressing because partly because of its connection to influencer culture.

SPEAKER_00

I see what you're saying, but I I like people are doing it with consent.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. It's just like someone's always trying to sell you something. Like somebody's gonna go with it. I'm doing that to try to find love so that they can like get a brand deal with mascara, you know? And it's like it it's just it's the depressing reality of capitalism, like consuming any and all art forms if you can call it that.

SPEAKER_00

I do agree that TV is like an art form, and like I think that that matters, even but I mean advertising corrupts art. Period. I feel like that might be a different episode, and I maybe already did is everything an ad.

SPEAKER_01

Everything is an ad. Pisses me off.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

We're already fighting, we haven't even gotten to the argument part.

SPEAKER_01

I was driving downtown this morning, and for South by Southwest, they're they're putting these giant ads like on the sides of skyscrapers. I forgot it was South by. No.

SPEAKER_00

It's depressing. I mean, I like I don't disagree with you that like all all of advertising, or maybe not all of advertising, but the extent to which it has gotten is really depressing. Yeah. But I I don't think I fully agree that like all advertising is bad.

SPEAKER_01

I did I say all advertising is bad. Advertising corrupts art. Yeah. Yeah. Because art once it starts trying to sell you something, a product, then Well, what if you're like an independent artist and you're advertising your art? Yes, but your art's not advertising something. Like influencers are not are not t telling you like they they don't genuinely want to sh like display their art form unless you call beauty an art form, which I guess, you know, it is. Yeah. But there it's more so for just profit. I just think the that it that like like would I advertise this podcast? Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Would I take a brand deal on this podcast? Yes. So are we corrupting our art form if we do that? A little. How? I don't I don't think I'm following.

SPEAKER_01

I guess because I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Can we come back to this? Let's move on. Okay, okay. So some modern reality TV that I really think about when it comes to just the everyday reality TV is like Survivor, The Bachelor, Real Housewives, Keeping With The Kardashians, America's Ex Hat Model, Love Island, Love Is Blind, and RuPaul's Drag Race. Yeah. Yeah. But these are all like varied types of reality TV. And then also I I like reality cooking shows, like competitions and stuff. That's a good one. That's probably, I feel like on the scale, like on the less harmful scale.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like Great British Baking Show. That's my kind of reality. So good. And like this is so wholesome.

SPEAKER_00

It's so wholesome, so peaceful. Yeah. I I feel high watching that show even when I'm. And there's no they they're never like you suck. Like they're just like they try to help each other. Yeah. They try to like help each other. Yeah. If only we all talk to each other that way. Exactly. Okay. Well, a lot of these shows have like a competition format where the participants are either competing against each other or competing for a goal, or sometimes both. Um, however, I feel like as time has gone on, the drama of the competition alone hasn't been enough for producers to like get the ratings and like the audiences that they really want. And get the art corruption.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I mean, do you do you feel like you agree with that? That like it I I feel like when I am thinking back to reality TV in like the early 2000s, maybe aside from America's next top model, I didn't I didn't think about how harmful it was, and maybe is maybe it was, but maybe I also kind of feel like maybe it was just like less harmful overall. Yeah. Um because I feel like when I've gone back and watched some older reality TV, it's also boring. Yes. That's oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like if it were to be ethical, it would be boring. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Period. Exactly. So you already kind of talked about like the reality TV that you're watching. I'm gonna go through some of those and talk about how there have been some like noteworthy scandals um around like the exploitation of the reality TV stars. Alright, hit me. Um so I was actually really surprised by this because I feel like Love is Blind has a really good rep overall. Um, but they've been sued by contestants for unsafe working conditions, so like minimal food and water provided, but like really encouraged to drink a ton of alcohol.

SPEAKER_01

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00

Um, being paid less than item, we didn't even talk about that one. Oh, that was a good one. Being paid less than minimum wage to work 20 hours a day. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Um, and having all of your like possessions taken from you, including your passport and license. Psychological torture. Yeah. They were talking about on the phone.

SPEAKER_01

On Love Island, it was like they didn't even know what day it was.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. That's fucked up. Um they were talking about how like when they go out from the pods onto like their like honeymoon or whatever, like where they go abroad. Um On Love is Blind. On Love is Blind, they give them their passport at TSA and then immediately take it back once they've like landed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00

Why? To prevent them from leaving. Because they're prisoners, prisoners of love. That's pretty blind to corruption. Um but that yeah, so like I kind of like that. Blind to corruption. Take my thoughts for it. Tell me what to do. Tell me what to do and I mean that's indentured servitude, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but you're saying it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00

That's I'm I'm not saying that.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know, you kind of said it.

SPEAKER_00

Um okay, Bachelor in Paradise. Two participants were allowed to drink really heavily throughout the day, and then production filmed a sexual encounter with them. Jesus leading to sexual assault allegations, and then production being halted, and then they did their own internal investigation and found nothing occurred. Internal investigation. Exactly. What an oxymoron. I know. Um, bachelor contestants have also reported being extremely isolated and difficult working conditions where they were left alone for hours a day without access to the outside world. Um, so like people reported just like running up and down the driveway because they have like they don't have TV, they don't have even books. They let's yeah, like they don't have their phones, they don't have it.

SPEAKER_01

Why would you not let them have books?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's just something like if they didn't bring it, they weren't provided it. Um yikes. And so they would just like run up and down the driveway just like for something to do. Um hell no. Yeah, and then they also talked a lot about being like emotionally manipulated by producers to create like intense dramatic scenes and emotional breakdowns.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's a show called Unreal. I've watched it, have you? Oh yeah, yeah. Oh I can't believe we didn't talk about that.

SPEAKER_00

I know. Highly recommend for the audience. It an ex producer of that show wrote that show.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's a it's a scripted show about a reality TV show and like the manipulation that goes on behind it.

SPEAKER_00

And the reality TV show is The Bachelor, essentially.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. It's a lightly disguised bachelor, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and I like the fact that someone who worked on The Bachelor helped, I think, helped write or produce it. Yeah, like the tone of it is dark, really dark, and like like really unveils how sinister those producers are.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, it's very predatory.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. So I also want to know that like there's a lot of talk about how like multiple reality show villains, quote unquote, um, share how a lot of their characters were made out by production slash editing to make them appear a certain way. Um, and in the age of like social media, like this literally led to like death threats and like doxing, yeah, and like really serious mental health impacts for the contestants. Yeah. And like we're like maybe some of these people did say some really shitty things at some point, but I the death threats is crazy. And the doxing, like that's really scary. Yeah. Um, and so like I just like I I thought a lot about like Demi from the Mormon wives, who like I I do not like her, and I think I think a lot of things that she probably said were actually kind of true because it seems like the whole cast has continued to not be friends with her even off the show and like off of production, but she does not deserve death threats, she does not deserve doxing, like none of those things are fair, and she doesn't even deserve bullying, and people will be like, This person is evil, and it's like that's where parasocial relationships go too far. Yeah, way too far. Way, way too far, way too far. So finally, our artifact for today is America's Next Top Model. Yes. Um, for those of you who have not watched either America's Next Top Model or Reality Check inside America's Next Top Model, America's Next Top Model is or was a competition show where a group of girls were selected to compete to be quote unquote America's Next Top Model. So they would go through like these modeling challenges, learn modeling skills, take a photo um from a photo shoot every week, and then be judged by a um cast of judges, and each week one contestant would be cut. So that's like the background. Yeah. But reality check inside America's Next Not Model, the documentary came about, I think, because in the past like two years there's been a lot of criticism online where people They put a lot of TikTok clips in the documentary where people revisited like the show and were like, wait, this is really abusive and toxic. And harmful and not okay. And Tyra Banks specifically got a lot of flack for it because she was like the face of it. The face of it and the producer. Yeah. Like and it was her idea to create this show. Yeah. Um, and she like this whole time has not apologized, has not taken accountability, and also did not in in the documentary idea.

SPEAKER_01

And also, what's up with the trench coat?

SPEAKER_00

The trench coat was crazy. You know, she she owns a hot ice cream shop now.

SPEAKER_01

What is that?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. It's yeah, exactly. It's just like melted ice cream.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

Look it up. I don't want to. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, what why do you think she wore a trench coat?

SPEAKER_00

I was like playing detective? Like, I don't know. It was very bizarre.

SPEAKER_01

I thought it was very strange. It was like she just came in from outside.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but like it also like she was showing a decent amount of cleavage and it looked like she wasn't wearing anything under it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It did look like she wasn't wearing anything under it. It was that was all girls were showing past the metric coat.

SPEAKER_00

And then like it was just a very bizarre choice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. It was. I was a very strange choice.

SPEAKER_00

I think I didn't research this, but I think she like initiated this show. Like the documentary.

SPEAKER_01

Like it was Yeah, I mean it it seemed like she was very PR trained and rehearsed in what she wanted to say. She said exactly what she planned to say.

SPEAKER_00

But I feel like she still came out looking like the villain.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like there was like a lack of awareness on her part.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, and I'm sure her part was filmed separately, so it's like the way that they edited it together, where you're hearing these like horrific things and then hearing her rehearsed PR lines about it.

SPEAKER_00

Not good.

SPEAKER_01

That was rough.

SPEAKER_00

The other villain on the documentary was the other producer with the cheeks. Ken, what's his name?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, dude. Yeah. And he was like, I'm not sorry. This is what we do for ratings.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. He was like, This is what TV is.

SPEAKER_01

And I did not apologize. I agree. That's why I kind of think like you have to throw out the baby with the bathwater a little bit. I don't think there's a happy, harmonious version of reality TV. Ken's right. But without drama and breakdown and scandal, there is no reality TV.

SPEAKER_00

Let's go through a couple of things that happened on the show so we can kind of like really unpack like the lack of empathy and apology demonstrated by Tyra Banks and Ken Bach because I think like that's where you it really was stunning to watch like how unapologetic they were. Um so this is gonna be like where the trigger warning comes into place. Like this is where like a major part of the abuse happened. Um but we're gonna get into just kind of like a couple of pieces of it right now. Okay, let's get into it. So Danny Evans, she was one of the contestants that was forced to close the gap in her front teeth. Yeah. Um and she very adamantly did not want to. And they like forced her to forced her.

SPEAKER_01

They pressured her over and over, and they're like, You're not gonna book jobs, you're not gonna get like I mean there was a scene where she was literally like, if I keep you, are you gonna get that gap closed?

SPEAKER_00

Right. Um, and like ultimately she claimed to like I called my mom, and mom was like, Well, if you want to win, like you gotta do this. And I was like, but like it was a choice made under duress. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

I will say I never wanna see explicit tooth footage like that again. It's traumatic. Please know that you gotta give me a heads up next time. I will because that was gnarly. I was eating dinner and all that was on, and I was like, I'm not gonna sleep tonight.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, very scary.

SPEAKER_01

I don't I don't fuck with tooth stuff at all.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, hers was like less scary than the other contestant, Joni Dodd. Yeah, I don't know. Where they like pulled her teeth and they they gave her veneers and like all of that, and like I don't think Danny said this, but Joni said that she's had continuous like health problems from that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um that was really bad.

SPEAKER_00

It was really bad, and like yes, she was excited on the show and like for beauty, for beauty, yeah. Um I will say Danny, I am somewhat proud of her because she kept part of her gap, like she didn't close it all the way. Yeah, um, I will say what's really ironic now is like what I see the modeling industry is more unique looks like that, where like you have a significant gap in your teeth, or you have a something that's a little bit different about your face. And like I agree.

SPEAKER_01

So, like the irony of it all that's why bodies shouldn't be trends.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. The irony of it all is that like she actually might have been more marketable with a bigger gap.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, um, I mean, a lot of their excuses in this was like back in the day, they're like, I don't want to have to fat shame you, but everybody else is going to, so I'm going to.

SPEAKER_00

Like unwilling to be trendsetters, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Even though that's literally what they're trying to be is trendsetters.

SPEAKER_01

That makes me think of queer eye, because queer eye is like supposed to be positive reality TV, but we do also know that behind the scenes there it's problematic.

SPEAKER_00

A lot of drama. Yeah. Okay, another contestant. This one, I in my opinion, was like the most gruesome of them. And I mean they were all pretty terrible, but this one was like the hardest to watch. Yeah. So Shandy Sullivan was sexually assaulted on camera. Like she was blackout drunk. Yeah. They filmed it. They filmed it, and then they filmed her like having a sexual encounter with another man on the camera, and then on top of that, they forced her to call her boyfriend to tell him about it. Mind you, they had they had their phones. They like they kept their phones away from them.

SPEAKER_01

The producers had the girl's phone. Yeah. They gave it to her and forced her to call her boyfriend to tell him he cheated on her, even though what actually happened was that she was assaulted.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. And like and it the it wasn't even that they forced her to to call him. It was that she wanted to tell him, and they were like, the only way you can tell her. And she just like sobbing on the floor, like in pain.

SPEAKER_01

Fetal position on a it was really, really hard to watch. It was yeah, it was disgusting. I've never seen America's Next's top model, and I don't yeah, I've no I don't even really fuck with reality TV like that. But that was like that was really really brutal. Really, really brutal.

SPEAKER_00

And that and that wasn't the only instance of sexual assault. There was also I feel like I might be saying this wrong, Kenya Kenya Hill. She was like groped by a male model. Yes. And she was also fat-shamed a lot on her season. So she was like, she was like probably a size and then like they were like, you're overweight, and then they made her dress up as an elephant and also be in the seven deadly sins photo shoot be gluttony.

SPEAKER_01

And by the way, she's a black woman.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

So they're like so there's a racial undertone to the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And she's like stunning.

SPEAKER_01

And like, yeah, absolutely. And like a I mean they broke these women down. Yeah. And they broke them. Was still very skinny by like all beauty standards. Yeah. Yeah. And and Tyra's just like, sorry guys, plus size modeling wasn't a thing back then.

SPEAKER_00

Meanwhile, no thanks to you, bitch. Literally, no thanks to her. Meanwhile, she ends up like producing, quote unquote, one of the first like plus size models that go into the mainstream industry. So she always had the power to do that. Yeah. And chose not to. Yeah. Um okay, two more. Ebony Haith. Um, she was also a black woman, a queer black woman, and she had her hair like made fun of by hairstylists. It was really hard to watch. And then also had her girlfriend come on, like come visit her. Yeah. And the other models were very homophobic towards her. Yeah. Um, and like they filmed all of that. They filmed all of it and like allowed these models to quote unquote confront her about having her girlfriend over.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Really disgusting. Um and then the last one is Dion Walters was forced to be a victim of a shooting for a for a photo shoot. For a photo shoot when her mom had been paralyzed from being shot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And you'll notice like almost all of these are the the black women on the show.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Like it's just so fucked up because I think, like, I'm not in a position to speak on Tyra Banks's like internalized racism. But I do feel like from what she said on the show, she's like, I went through XYZ as a black woman, and I feel like she wanted to put other black women through that.

SPEAKER_00

I would just be like, this is what it's like out there. You need to toughen up. I'm gonna show you. Yes. Because I love you.

SPEAKER_01

Because there was also that whole thing. Right. And then the one that she yelled at, was that Kenya?

SPEAKER_00

No, it wasn't. Um I actually didn't put her name in here. Yeah. She came in later. I can look it up. But like she claims that like she was like, I felt so in defense of her. Like I was trying to like help her grow. Saying it was tough love. And it's like Tiffany Richardson. So she was like the one where it's like, we were all rooting for you. Yeah. Um and they said that that actually the way that was edited, yeah, was less intense than what it actually was like. And Tiffany Richardson has come out multiple times talking about like how toxic and how harmful specifically Tyra was, not just the show.

SPEAKER_01

Imagine seeing that moment of your life made into like a meme.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, and like also just like experiencing a woman who you maybe previously admired berate you like that. Break you down publicly, humiliate you. Yeah. Uh and so like I I want to go back to like how um Ken Mock and Tyra Banks like truly like were the villains of this show.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like they did orchestrate almost all of this and then did not apologize at the time, nor retrospect retroactively. Like they they do not seem to show empathy in this documentary. No. They do a lot of what you said of like where they're like, oh, like it was a different time, blah blah blah. But then I also think about like Mr. J and Miss J and Oof, like they're not innocent either. They're not innocent either, but like one of the takes that I read about was how they are also technically talent for the show. Right.

SPEAKER_01

They they were also seeing one of those evil little twinks being like, sorry, I just like I couldn't confront her. Well, Jay, Mr. Jay.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, he said he didn't want to come back and then never heard from Tyra again. They forced his hand.

SPEAKER_01

But I mean, yeah, I I feel like there could have been more standing.

SPEAKER_00

I do think there could have been more done, but I I still think that like they are in my mind victims of that show.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean you can be a victim and a perpetrator at the same time.

SPEAKER_00

That's true. That is that is true. I I think though a lot about how like what would their careers look like outside of that, and I'm not saying it's like justified that they did all those things that they did, but like I do think they were more protective over the girls than Tyra was.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for sure. It's a there's a spectrum. But like when he talked about like the race switching contest and he was like, I asked to be excused from it and instead of like confronting it. Yeah, it's like you you should have refused to do that. Right. Like obviously there's a lot of should have. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

But you know, yeah, there's a lot of But they did take accountability.

SPEAKER_01

There's a lot of excuses being made, it's just I guess the overall point.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like they took more accountability now than anyone else somewhat. Yeah. Something that was like also really unsettling to me was Tyra specifically saying like it's the audience's fault that things got so extreme. Yeah. Like how she was like, You guys craved us, you guys wanted this. Like you begged me for this. Right. But like I wouldn't have done it.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, and that is true. I I don't supply and demand. If we all stopped watching reality TV, they wouldn't make it anymore.

SPEAKER_00

That sure, I think there is a supply and demand, but when I was researching a little bit about like reality TV ethics, Love Island has actually like really backed off some of the more harmful things, even though it'd be better for like audience and ratings. Like they they have a one to two drink limit per day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and so I think that like while sure we could make the argument that like reality TV only exists because of the audience wants it, I think there is like a lot of room for error around like how harmful we really get.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, where you draw the line. Right. Because you can let people be a little cray and not get too hurt.

SPEAKER_00

That's well, I think a lot about like keeping up with the Kardashians, actually. Like they are the ones who I think have profited the most off of their reality TV stardom, and their TV is boring. Like it is to this day boring.

SPEAKER_01

I've never seen it.

SPEAKER_00

Um, don't. Um, but like it is like their fights are not that dramatic, their lives are not that interesting, and like so what?

SPEAKER_01

They're just pretty, like uh they're just aspirational? What do we want why are we watching them?

SPEAKER_00

Well, do you know the lore about their family? Uh they're all rich. They I mean they were always wealthy, but their dad was the lawyer for the O.J. Simpson trial.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, and so I think that that really like initially created the entry. Who's his dad? What do you mean? You said their dad. Kardashian's dad. He was the lawyer for the O.J. Simpson trial. Oh, right. Okay. He was involved in the OJ Simpson trial. Yeah, I got you, I got you.

SPEAKER_01

I forgot the Jenners were like a separate family.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but then Kim had that sex tape, and her her mom catapulted that into um the like reality TV that they have now. Yeah. Um, and I think that like, yes, that was extremely exploitative, of course, and I'm curious how much consent that Kim had in all of that. Yeah. Um, but they like I think have made me come out like maybe it's not fair to me to say like the least harmed. I don't I don't really know what their mental health and their psyche is like, and they've had some like they have had some pretty extreme things happen to them. Like Kim was like robbed at gunpoint. Um, but like lots of people have been robbed at game. I know, but like sure, that's still extreme no matter who it is. And so I think that like while there have been some harmful things that have happened to them, like I I think they have really really profited off of something that isn't like the the reality TV itself was not that harmful.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think really a lot of the harm comes in from these competition style shows.

SPEAKER_00

So back to like your point though, like I I think maybe we agree that like we can blame production for the harm that happens. Yeah. And we can agree that money and profit and capitalism is always gonna be the root of all evil. I think maybe where we disagree, and you tell me, but I do think there's a level of consent happening with these reality TV stars that makes it less harmful than potentially like other topics we've had talked about, or like less exploitative than some other things that we've discussed. And I I think that like sure maybe they don't all know the contract they're signing and like all of that, but like they are getting something out of it a lot of the time, and I think people have the right to like pursue stardom or influencership or whatever it is that they want.

SPEAKER_01

A lot of them are subjecting themselves to it, especially if it's not the first season of something. Like, if you saw the first season of the ultimatum and you signed up for it, like you know, good luck to you. Yeah, again, huge range.

SPEAKER_00

There's a huge range, there's a huge range. Yeah, like I personally like probably Love Island would be like the show that I would want to go on in terms of like Yes.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like there's a there's a reason why I could tolerate Love Island, whereas I can't tolerate other shows.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, or traitors, you should watch traitors, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm I'm hearing that it's good, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So, like, I mean, but they they are those are already reality TV stars. I know. He now I'm jealous, yeah. Yeah, he if you were a man, I feel like he could be like the aura that you kinda have. I don't know if that's good or bad. I think it's good. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Everyone's obsessing over him, so now you have to come into it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, he looked pretty hot. No, yeah, his tattoo, the like long snake one. Ugh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Anyway, interesting. Yeah. Does Vivake have any tattoos? No. Should do you want him to get some?

SPEAKER_00

I've I'm like he knew what he wants, but I I like tattoos, so I think I would like find it attractive, but he is really indecisive and like afraid to get something permanently on his body. Sure, so that's totally valid. But we'll see, one day. Maybe we'll get something for Ari. Oh, that would be cute. Yeah, we'll get like a matching tattoo for Ari. Yeah. Um his face. Like Ace. It creeps me out when people get a face, like a baby's face, a partner's face.

SPEAKER_01

I their face goes away when they get older? They don't they spend away. The baby face goes away.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, for sure. They they grow out of their face. They look different. They look different. And then it's like, okay, this is you as a baby. It's like, why do you have a baby tattooed on you? Like, that's so fucking pedophilia. A little bit in the trade. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, oh, that's your nephew. Okay. Weird.

SPEAKER_00

He consent to that. Nope. Nah, dude. Yeah. Nah. At you, ace. What he was the worst one on Love Island. I'm like, weird. Why, bro? So weird.

SPEAKER_01

That's fucking weird.

SPEAKER_00

Anyways. What do you think about like the reality stars like technically consenting to Yeah?

SPEAKER_01

I think there is a spectrum. I think that they do consent to it foolishly. And I do also believe in supply and demand. So if we were not watching these shows, then they there would be nothing to consent to. And that all go back goes back to like ethical consumption. But overall, yes, I agree. Like when I'm watching the ultimate, when I'm watching Love Island and these people are suffering, I'm like, okay, but you you did go into this knowingly. Like, this is not like it's not like a mom fluencer thing where it's like that's a child.

SPEAKER_00

Right. I do agree with that.

SPEAKER_01

There's a level of consent. I'm I'm agreeing with that.

SPEAKER_00

I also feel like when it's a show like like Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, like they they aren't getting anything out of that other than money.

SPEAKER_01

And we enjoy judging them for doing it. We're like, why would you ever like be on this show? Right. And it's like part of what we enjoy judging.

SPEAKER_00

I actually I don't feel like I judge that really. I I judge like the like some of the actual like Mormonism of it where I'm like that like coming. And not the fame fuckery of it. No, actually. Like I okay. I I'm kind of just like, you know what you're doing. And I can't like you're getting your bag, and I like I can't even be that mad about it.

SPEAKER_01

Sometimes with Taylor, I'm like, girl, you're creating drama, like in a thin air.

SPEAKER_00

That would be there with or without the cameras.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, agreed. Yeah. But and I'm judging it whether I knew her in real life or through the camera.

SPEAKER_00

You're judging the actual people that they are the contents of their character, I guess. Got it. I but I but I think like similarly, like I've grown to really like respect. Like who do you respect? I like Macy.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, really? Yeah. Of course you're gonna side with the blonde. Macy's kind of she's really judgmental though.

SPEAKER_00

They all are. We are. We're reading a podcast about things we judge.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's kind of true. It's about the ethical decisions we all have to make. Because I'm saying all this. I watch Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I watch I'm gonna watch The Bachelorette, even though I'm against The Bachelorette. Yeah, me too. I'm still gonna watch it. I mean the other thing we're not talking about is like a lot of these women, I think 80% of them are like MAGA on Yeah, that actually makes me feel better because I'm like, yeah, dance monkey, let me watch her suffering.

SPEAKER_00

They're not suffering.

SPEAKER_01

They are they are suffering.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you mean like internally, emotionally? Yeah. Okay, but not like politically, economically.

SPEAKER_01

No. Yeah. No, no, no. I mean I do think that I do think that women, especially women in the public eye, suffer greatly from oppressive beauty standards. Sure. And I do feel bad for them. Yeah, Jessie, I like feel real bad for her. She's really suffering. She's suffering. And I I guess women I know in real life and on television suffer from such like horrific low self-esteem, body dysmorphia, like self-hate based on these oppressive beauty standards. And it's been with or without the camera. That's what I was gonna say. But the camera makes it worse.

SPEAKER_00

I uh I agree that the camera makes it worse, but again, I hope it'd be like getting Ryze mushroom coffee if I had to go on camera.

SPEAKER_01

One white poop. Yes, buddy. D bloat. I got back on Instagram and Rise was like, Hey, I missed a girl. I miss you. Um But I don't you hate yourself, you fat fuck.

SPEAKER_00

That's literally every ad we all ever get. Yeah. Roe comes on my like Hulu ads every single hour. The um it's like another Zimpic knockoff, it's like the GLP one and it's Serena Williams advertising it. I know. You're a goddess. I know. I was like, you are the one of the most decorated athletes of our time, and you're selling me a weight loss drug?

SPEAKER_01

I know. There's no hope. So anyway, called the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. We're gonna have to help you lines. That's right. I've had three cookies and six Reese's today.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Yeah. Oh man. Just ask my girlfriend. I'm I'm a I'm a cookie monster. Okay. That should be all your handles, cookie monster. I'm I'm gonna address my handles because I did a personal rebrand of it all.

SPEAKER_00

But we've done some cookie monster has like an inny window to it, you know? Like it could go oh yeah, like lesbian. Yeah. Cookie monster.

SPEAKER_01

I don't really like that.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

That's a little too cross for me. Oh my god. All right. Anyways. Okay, so I wanna but I want to go back to like the point you were making about how like the beauty standards of women are really harmful to them, and then it's exacerbated by reality TV. And I think that can be true across the board about a lot of things. Yeah. Body image, eating disorders, personality types, religion, like whiteness, all of those things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I also still think that is gonna happen with or without reality TV. And like if you are gonna make money, if you want to make money and like be exposed to that, then like so what, right?

SPEAKER_01

Like yeah, it's kinda that's uh like a similar argument for sex work, right? Where it's like men are going to sexually exploit women, like if you want to take advantage of that and get your bag, then who are we to judge?

SPEAKER_00

I also feel like I read a lot about these people who either like sued the reality shows that they are on or like came out against them. We don't hear a lot about the ones who like have been successful since. And I think that like Olandria. Oh, Landria, at Olandria. Do you think she's with Nick? No.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely not, right?

SPEAKER_00

I c I kinda wish, because I actually do think they were a sweet couple. What? He sucks. Yeah, he's mega. No, he's not. We've got he is, no, he is. No, we've had a cop this conversation before.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he liked a bunch of Trump posts.

SPEAKER_00

No, I thought that was the other one.

SPEAKER_01

No, that one too. But also Nick.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, well let's debrief after the podcast. I feel like we debunked this. No. Um we didn't. Anyways. No, I'm sad. Um, okay. So I I think that like the people who have come out successful on the other side of these things might argue that it was all worth it. Yeah. Sure. So I I Tim Kardashian would say it was all worth it, I'm sure. Even uh some of the like the America's Next Top Model winners, like one of the ones, Whitney, she was the plus size one, like the first plus size winner, she was saying very successful. She was like, I wouldn't have had any of these doors opened if I had not been on this show.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I like as horrible as America's Next Top Model seemed to be behind the scenes and on the scene, honestly. Um in front of the scene. In front of the scenes. There are a lot of women who like on that show were still like, I'm glad I did it. Yeah. So I'm of what like who are we to judge? I suppose. Who is Tyra Banks to judge? Well, Tyra Banks, I I always kind of had a weird feeling about her, but now I'm like as a therapist and just as a person, like you are a narcissist. Like clinically, by definition, you are a narcissist.

SPEAKER_01

You think so?

SPEAKER_00

That's your professional opinion. No, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like even an unprofessional person, improfessional person could could accurately make that call.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I know one person who I'm like, because I think we throw that around a lot, but I have encountered a tree narcissist, and it does align with what I saw in that doc.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, and I think maybe a lot of these like executive producers, creators of the shows, like have to be that in order to actually like maybe has to be a narcissist. They have to be it in the sense that like they could not do this without being a narcissist.

SPEAKER_01

So cutthroat and cold. Yeah, they don't give a fuck.

SPEAKER_00

Like, yeah. So in that sense, I think that like I really bring blame like like we said, like, producers for the intensity of what has happened, not so much the audience.

SPEAKER_01

But only the audience can hold the producers accountable, realistically. Because it's all about the numbers, it's all about who's watching.

SPEAKER_00

I I I agree with that, but I d I think that these people would go find another way to exploit somebody for money. Yeah. Sure. Regardless of reality TV. Well, why why not let people like have some sort of consent?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I guess. It just feels like a lesser of two evils kind of argument, but Isn't that our whole podcast? Yeah. But I also stop watching La Violet. I think we could do away with reality TV and we'd we'd all be okay.

SPEAKER_00

We'd all be okay. But do you not think that like scripted shows are just as exploitative?

SPEAKER_01

No, I don't want to talk about Yeah, then you gotta give up something, don't you? No, I don't want to talk about that. Everybody who filmed uh How I Met Your Mother was happy all the time. I think they may be less exploitative, to be fair, but because they're I mean it's like the playing on people's insecurities and dramas. Like that's fucked.

SPEAKER_00

But I will say, like, I feel like there's a lot of shows that probably make the actors relive some really dark experiences in order to like get a good scene. What is reality TV? Reality TV is acting a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe not all of it, but like a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00

Like, I also think that if you were a s I'm gonna take that back a little bit, but if you were if you were someone who wanted to maybe best best the producers, yeah, you could go on with this fake persona, these fake insecurity.

SPEAKER_01

But they do like a bunch of like psychoanalysis on you, at least from what I heard from Love Island. They do, but you could lie. Yeah, true. Yeah. Should I do it?

SPEAKER_00

I mean I would watch. Oh, but I would have to get Botox and Lip Filler and Once I'm done breastfeeding, we can go do that together. Great.

SPEAKER_01

We're gonna get Yassified and then we're gonna go on reality TV and then we'll make a And then we'll make our podcast famous. Uh then our podcast will finally be famous, and we can get an ad with Rise of Mushroom Coffee. Okay. So where do we go from here? Like, what do we do now? Well where do you where do you stand? I think I stand you know, I did not really play Devil's Advocate, those were my real opinions th today. Um, but I think I stand similarly to where I did, which is that I will indulge in some reality TV. There is some stuff that I can't stomach, but clearly I am overlooking some level of problematic exploitation to to enjoy this form of entertainment. Like I'm gonna watch Love Island. Yeah. And it's so fun. Yeah. Um and I think that if I see something, I'll say something. So kind of like with the whole like Sierra situation, like people were like, hey, we found something like morally corrupt. Now the internet dogpile was unnecessary. Right. But kind of like that. Like if I see something, you know, I think is really wrong, then I'll speak on it. And like stop watching. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I think that I also was pretty truthful to what I was saying. I was out just with playing devil's advocate for the sake of it. Yeah. Um, I think one of the actually more telling things to me is actually traitors is a good example of like how the these they're literally reality TV stars willing to be on another show. Yeah. And so like, or even when you're willing to come back for another season, I have to watch selling sunset. Oh, great. And I don't feel bad about watching that. No, because they're they're making so much money.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think that's there's there's just a line for me. If it if it like the premise itself is like we get off on humiliating people, I'm not okay with that. So most most things that are gonna be like a beauty competition or like you know, yeah, exploiting someone's pain. Yeah, um, I have that problem with a lot of like uh true crime.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But if it's if the premise of it is like these hot young people are looking for love, or like these men are gonna compete to try to marry this lady, it's like, okay, fine. I'll watch, I guess. I guess the queer ultimatum was both triggering and in like deeply entertaining. Yeah, I mean, not all lesbians are like that, but we're not gonna go on the ultimate. But would I do it uh to to just fuck around? That would be funny.

SPEAKER_00

You have to think that some of people these people are like and I'm getting paid. Right. But again, a lot of contestants on shows like that are not getting paid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not getting it. They're looking for brand deals.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I guess. But are those people like I feel like I never hear from them again.

SPEAKER_00

I think the ultimatum is maybe a little naive of them to think that they would get a brand deal, but maybe they're like, oh, this will launch me into another reality show, which will like or maybe they're it's shits and giggles. Who knows?

SPEAKER_01

Who knows?

SPEAKER_00

Or maybe they really are like, this is gonna solve my relationship problems. I would love to hear if that was the actual case. All that being said, where do we go from here? I think that like I'm I'm not gonna stop watching reality TV. I might stop watching like I'm not gonna they're gonna make a new season of America's Next Top Model. I'm not gonna watch that. Um no thanks. Yeah, and I think I I kind of stopped watching The Bachelor Bachelor for similar reasons, so where they just had too many unethical things happen in that like space. Yeah. Um so but like like you said, where it's not like a competition-based thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think that I will like I will be watching great British baking shows.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Like I don't feel that bad about engaging and like especially like when the people on those shows are actually profiting off of it, like they're actually making money. Yeah. Then I'm like, okay, you you have consented that some form of like exposure is worth the money.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. So yeah. So reality TV is not going anywhere anytime soon. I think being conscious about your consumption is good. Like, be mindful, you decide where to draw the line, as we we always end up saying. But if you do know of somebody who, you know, is trying to get the word out about something bad that happened to them, like be supportive of that. Like, don't support things that you know are, you know, abusing people. You know, there are lines that should not be crossed, and it's not all just for entertainment.

SPEAKER_00

So is that like the hard truth that you're coming to? Is that like there is a hard line when it comes to reality TV and it's when people are like being abused to the point that like they feel like they are not consenting and they're being coerced.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I guess that is the hard truth that I'm gonna I'm gonna say. What about you?

SPEAKER_00

I think I agree. I think that like America's Link Scout Model is the exposure of it to me revealed to me how much coercion was happening.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so therefore, like I think that's a show that I probably won't watch. I actually feel very similarly about like Fear Factor.

SPEAKER_01

I've never seen that.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think it's still airing, but they would like force them to do these, like, really like eat a live scorpion.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, anything where they're like forcing them to do like disgusting stuff. Yeah. I'm not entertained by that, nor do I support it aesthetically.

SPEAKER_00

Um and then also things that put people in danger. So like the Bachelor in Paradise where like they let them get really drunk and then like have a sexual encounter. Like stuff like that is where I I draw the line too. So I think there's a way to like still get your reality TV fixed without again, I don't really think it's the audience's fault, but like without like encouraging viewers too.

SPEAKER_01

There are better ways to go about it. Yeah. And show that you we don't want to see that. Right. Yeah, we want to see them like argue and bicker, but we don't want to see people get assaulted. We we don't want to see people get, you know, torn down. Right.

SPEAKER_00

So there is a hard line when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_01

I guess my other hard truth is like we do have to behave as an audience. Yes, if we're doxing people and sending them death threats, that's not okay. Don't do that. If you do that, you're probably not listening to this podcast, but don't do that.

SPEAKER_00

I just don't understand why people like have the uncontrollable urge. I have never once like seen someone on reality TV or on the internet and wanted to dox them.

SPEAKER_01

It's like I want to send death threats to some famous people, but none of them are reality TV stars. No, they're all politicians.

SPEAKER_00

It's all it's mostly Elon Musk.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Yes. I had to go to a panel today where a representative from Tesla was there, and I was like, I know. Talking about AI. No. So what is my job?

SPEAKER_00

We should have been like, um, isn't Groc being sued for revealing naked images of women and children? That's not what this episode is about. We did actually our previous episode on that, but yeah, so go listen to that, bitches. If you want to be even more depressed. Um, okay. So I feel like we did kind of like where we go from here.

SPEAKER_01

It was a less depressing episode than usual.

SPEAKER_00

I I think so. And I think we had a more depressing hopeful compromise, right? You don't have to give it up entirely. Yeah. Um I think a lot of that does have to come back to money, though. The fact that people are making money.

SPEAKER_01

There's no ethical consumption, everything is an ad. Keep that in mind when you make your choices. Right. As usual.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have any predictions about like where reality TV will go? No.

SPEAKER_01

I I kind of feel like it might die because of influencer culture. Where it's like I thought about that too. Because like with Mormon Wives, I'm like, I already know where all these plot lines are going because I watch these women on TikTok. Exactly. So what are you gonna tell me that I don't already know? And they're putting the TikToks in the show, and I'm like, this is silly.

SPEAKER_00

I do think though that some people feel like that encourages them to watch more because they feel like they have that parasocial relationship with them on social media, and so they want to see more of it in a long form. That makes sense, like content, you know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I think that like I think you're right that they will become just more and more mesh with influencer culture and social media. Um, I don't think it's I actually don't think it's going anywhere though. Like, I think if anything, we're gonna get more of it. Um I also want to note that in my research there was increased protections for reality stars in the past like five to ten years. That's good. There's been some like legislation around like them being employees rather than independent contractors on the show. Okay, which like has to guarantee like workplace rights, yeah. Um, so thank god. Um, and then also there's been um stricter limits around like alcohol consumption on a lot of shows. Yeah, so Love Island was like the initiator of that.

SPEAKER_01

So that makes me feel good about watching Love Island, it should be Trailblazers in the ethical reality TV space.

SPEAKER_00

I will also say, like, in terms of like fighting on Love Island, yeah, they're very calm. And like they're like very like, let's go have a chat. Like, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

They keep it light, yeah, except for a couple that incident last year. And like people still love to watch it. Yeah. So I think there was a moment where it got kind of dark, and I was like, I don't feel good watching this. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But I got over it. So I think that all that being said, like, there probably is a way to make reality TV like fun and not harmful. Yeah. Minimize the harm. Let's maybe if we just all watch Love Island and nothing else, all the other reality shows we'll get on board. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, we show, we like, we vote for what we want with our attention. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Okay. Are you ready for cancel or comeback? Yes. Alright. Cancel or comeback? Dancing with the stars. Uh, I've never seen it. I watched it growing up. I haven't seen recently dancing, so yeah, come back. I also think this is like a technically a reality competition show that is like not that harmful. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Um and I also feel like stars. That was ridiculous. Okay. Um, they they re- have rebranded to be like more millennial-coded. Rebranded. Yeah. Like us. Like us. And to get like some like reality TV stars that like we care about. We care about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know Whitney and and Jen from And Alex Earle.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my god. I know. I don't really know what she does, but she's an influencer. And she's different than the one on Call Her Daddy. I also got confused for the longest time. Okay. But there's two different people.

SPEAKER_00

She's Alex A-L-I-X, and then Al I don't know the last name, but the other one on Call Her Daddy is A, just regular Alex. She's a terrible podcaster.

SPEAKER_01

But like the most like uh one of the most lucrative podcasts of all time, which is crazy. I know. Okay. So she can't be that terrible if that people listen to her. She can. Well she is not good at interviewing people, and that's what she does. She just talks over them. People will disagree with you. Yeah. I'm don't I know a girl.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, let's keep going. Uh cancer come back. Game shows. Oh. Like Jeopardy, Wheel of Fortune.

SPEAKER_01

Sure, come back.

SPEAKER_00

I love a game show. Yes, I find them kind of obnoxious. They're no, they're cringe for sure. But like I I love a game show because you get to play. That's true. Yeah. That's true. I don't do very well, but I'm Jeopardy. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah. Come back. Sure. You can play bar trivia in your home. Family food. Yeah, exactly. My dad loved Family Feud. And he really wanted us to go on it. Oh my gosh. I know. It was kind of cute. Yeah. He should fulfill his dream. I know. He like watched it every day.

SPEAKER_01

That's cute. I know. You Vivek and Ari can go on.

SPEAKER_00

We went down too well. No. Ari doesn't know shit. No. And also, like, a lot of those questions are very like American coded. And so like Vivek being from India would like not get the like top answers. Yeah. What you're supposed to answer.

SPEAKER_01

What are most people gonna say? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

It was like, well, in India. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, that's that's valid.

SPEAKER_00

Um, okay. So cancer comeback, reality TV stars becoming actual actors or like pop stars, aka Jojo Siwa. What is Jojo Siwa becoming a pop star. Besides.

SPEAKER_01

Oh now, but yeah, now a triad wife. But um, yeah, I mean, yes, why not? Like, if you're gonna get famous, like go for it. Let's see. Can you sing? Can you act? Do what you need to do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Come back. Whitney from uh Mormon Wives. Yeah, girl. That's what she's pursuing. Let's go. Yeah. Let me see what you got. Yeah. I'm I'm here with you. I'm sure she's killing it. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, yeah, you agree? I well, someone from my work wouldn't saw her, and they were like, her voice lessons paid off. Oh, okay. Good for her. Yeah. Um, I agree. Yeah, come back. Um, I'm gonna switch these last two. So Antillar Comeback Traitors, which you have not seen.

SPEAKER_01

I haven't seen, but come back because you know, my girlfriend likes it too. I'll you know, I'll be positive about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Did you ever play um I can't remember the actual name of it? It was called like Werewolf. Oh yeah. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_01

I see.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's literally what it is. Interesting, but it must be like a long drawn-out version of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Sure. I was like, I played this like as an 18-year-old as a team builder in college, and now it's a TV show. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01

We are just doing whatever. But also kind of like a game show. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00

That sounds like on the more on the less harmful side. Right. Um, okay. Cancel our comeback, cable TV.

SPEAKER_01

Hmm. I mean, if we if we brought if we come back cable TV, we have to get rid of streaming. No more binging. You better be home at 7 o'clock or tape it. Mm-hmm. Come back for that.

SPEAKER_00

I'm no, I actually am come back cable TV. I cable TV also with no phones. And no ads. Well, cable TV ran on ads. But yeah. So, but it was like infomercials.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right. I I guess mushroom coffee is basically an infomercial. No, it is. It's a modern-day infomercial.

SPEAKER_00

Um I really want to try it. No! There's only one type of mushrooms that you can do. Okay. Nothing else. Everything else is a scam. You're right. Yeah. Okay. Um, I but yeah, come back cable TV. I think it'd be good for America. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Let's bring back uh where'd patriotism go anyway? Ask your plumber. Don't even say that. What if he listens? If you're listening, I love you and what you stand for. And thank you for all that you do in my apartment. If you have comments, questions, criticisms, complaints, or concerns, you can now email us at true friendspod at gmail.com. Rebrand. I know. Hashtag rebrand. Are we gonna replace the outro as all too? No, we can't.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I you can find me also personally rebranded at the better Bradshaw. Get it? Because like Carrie Bradshaw, no, I got it. I'm better than her.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh on Substack, Instagram, and TikTok. Yes, I reactivated my TikTok. And read my bi-weekly cannabis column in the Austin Chronicle. And uh buy my novel, Good Christian Girls, anywhere you buy books, except Amazon. Don't buy it from there.

SPEAKER_00

Join us next week when we have a new topic to talk about. Yes, join us next week if you're a true friend. You're not a fake friend.

SPEAKER_02

Oh okay. Bye.