True Friends

Episode 17: When do we intervene when it comes to domestic violence?

• Kate Vancil & Elizabeth Bradshaw

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 56:47

Quick Editor's Note: We had some audio and tech issues this episode that were unable to be edited out. Stay tuned for fixes in our next episode.

Kate and EB debate the ethics of domestic violence in the public eye. For today's episode, we watched the Secret Lives of Mormon wives and engaged with the online discourse that followed. We discuss our opinions and experiences and debate the role the spotlight plays in DV.

Sources:

SPEAKER_00

Do whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_02

This is none of my fucking bowls.

SPEAKER_00

Put the watches in the bowl.

SPEAKER_01

Put the the keys.

SPEAKER_00

The bowl. And the watches.

SPEAKER_01

The watches.

SPEAKER_00

And the men with the watches. And then the keys, I think, are women.

SPEAKER_01

No, only men can drive.

SPEAKER_02

Hi, and welcome to True Friends, an everyday ethics podcast where two true friends discuss the complexities of the life decisions we all have to make. From beauty standards to politics, we're bringing you our hot takes on modern debates and our commentary on the zeitgeist. We might not always agree, but we'll give our honest opinions the way true friends do. I'm EB, a part-time writer, a full-time lesbian, and a Whitney Levitt defender.

SPEAKER_00

I would just like to claim that I also am a Whit Whitney Levitt defender. I know, I know, okay. So I'm Kate, a licensed therapist, first-time mom, and swig curious. Swig curious. Yeah, I I actually am a little invested in the dirty soda.

SPEAKER_02

I'm honestly like, if I didn't drink coffee, I would definitely be interested in a dirty soda. But what what makes it dirty? Just the flavors? Um, I think it's because they put like creamer and stuff into it. Okay, that's actually gross. Yeah. I mean, what, you've never had a Dr. Pepper with a little creamer in it? No, have you? Yeah, it's good. So maybe you're not a swing curious. Maybe I'm not swing curious. At first I thought it said swing curious, and I was like, oh, would you ever swing?

SPEAKER_00

I I literally could not, but purely just because of the effort, not because I'm again not. Not for moral reasons. For moral reasons, I just can't imagine putting that much effort into being with somebody else. Sure.

SPEAKER_02

You know, that's that's also like partly why I'm a fan of monogamy. The effort. Yeah. Because I can barely handle one person. I'm just I can barely handle myself. I know. I'm non non-gamous. Okay. In this episode, we are going to discuss the topic of domestic violence. If y'all are on the internet this week, you know what I'm talking about. Please listen with caution and take breaks or step away as needed. We have resources for support linked in the notes of this episode. But this week we are talking about the gender dynamics and toxic relationship cycles, I guess I would broadly say. Yeah. I had trouble like nailing down what the topic is.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I feel like this that is like maybe summarizing the discourse that's been online this week around the artifact that we chose for this episode. If you want to introduce that.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. So this week's artifact was The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives season four and the internet discourse surrounding it. Specifically, we're going to be talking about the headlines that have come out recently about Taylor, Frankie Paul, and her domestic violence charges. Originally, we were going to talk about how the men are featured too much on the show, and then all these headlines exploded. So this was always going to be the artifact, but we actually pivoted like the topic, if you will.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and Evie will be presenting the artifact and giving her her opinion, and I'll be playing the devil's advocate.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, sure. We'll see. So for those not on the internet at all right now, or maybe you're listening to this way in the future when all this has been forgotten um and we rebuilt the ozone layer.

SPEAKER_00

I I think more is to come. What do you mean? I think there's gonna be more stuff from Taylor, yeah. Oh, sure. I mean more is to come in the world as well.

SPEAKER_02

In the future, like they're listening to From the Moon. They dug up the archives. Yes. Yeah. And they listened to true friends. So ABC made the decision this week to pull the latest season of The Bachelorette, which was already filmed and set to premiere after a video of a domestic violence incident from 2023 surfaced with Taylor's then boyfriend, Dakota Mortensen. So we'll s we'll probably just say Taylor, but it's it's Taylor, Frankie Paul. We'll probably just say Dakota, it's just Dakota Mortenson. So the police report was already on record well before The Bachelorette was filmed, but the video that was posted recently by TMZ sparked a lot of outrage and provided context that caused the show to be pulled entirely. So from an NPR article, the video filmed by Mortensen appears to show Paul hitting, grabbing, and throwing three bar stools at him. A child can be heard crying on the couch nearby, and Mortenson says at one point, Your daughter is sitting right there. Taylor's team has framed all of this as this destructive campaign engineered by Dakota to sabotage Taylor's success. So this has sparked a lot of controversy and internet dis discourse related to domestic violence, who is seen as the victim, who is seen as the perpetrator in the court of public opinion.

SPEAKER_00

Anything you want to say before I go on? I mean, I I will say, like, we're not gonna play the video here. Yeah, but if you feel like you can handle watching that.

SPEAKER_02

I think I linked it or I will link it, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. Yeah, it's hard to watch. If you want the context, yes, but like a huge trigger warning that it it's just hard to watch.

SPEAKER_00

It's yeah, and I I will say though, like what I found maybe confusing or like kind of shocking about all of this is that like, like you said, there was a court case already. She lost custody of her kids for six months. She went to treatment, right, and then it took this video coming out for people to actually be upset.

SPEAKER_02

That is part of what I think is causing so much controversy because there's definitely an argument to be made that the timing of this was engineered in a specific way. Yeah. And I I say this because this incident occurred in 2023 and was publicly known. There was a police record and everything, and they feature it in the first season of the Secret Lives of Mormon White. They they should show the footage. Her getting arrested. The footage, sorry, of her getting arrested, not the footage that we're talking about. So, but this video recently resurfaced after a more recent incident in which Taylor is alleged to have choked Dakota with a necklace this past February. And we're recording this in the case. Didn't know that until right now. Until I read your outline. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we don't have any other info. This is alleged, you know, we're not trying to libel anyone, but Dakota was recently granted a restraining order against Taylor, and the new incident seems to be what kind of brought the 2023 accident, uh sorry, incident in back into the public eye. So there's some speculation about like who leaked the video, yeah. Why it was leaked right before her bachelorette premiere. Yeah. And I think it's causing some like confusion and and a lot of arguing on the internet.

SPEAKER_00

Do you think that matters who leaked it?

SPEAKER_02

Um, overall, morally, no, it doesn't matter who leaked it. However, it is it interest would it be interesting to know in regards to like whether this was uh strategic or not. Yeah. Because there certainly seems to be some element of strategy because of the timing. This happened three years ago, and we're seeing the footage. Right before the bachelorette was meant to premiere. Yeah. Not that that excuses anything in the video.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I I am interested in it.

SPEAKER_00

So a hot take that I saw online was that sure a lot of people are saying Dakota's the one that like got paid by TMZ to release it, but maybe someone in someone in PR is saying that like this is crisis PR, and that the reason they released the video is because something is kind of is happening, and this is like stage like it's making Disney and ABC and Hulu not look as bad because they're like, oh, we're actually canceling because of this thing two years ago that we just revisited versus finding out about to happen.

SPEAKER_02

And we filmed anyways, even though we knew like what I do agree. I would not be surprised if soon after we record this something else comes out. And I wonder if that is part of the strategy that you're saying, so that because they pulled the season already, right? Yes. And supposedly they pulled the season because of this video. Right. So if something else happens, they've already like di disintegrated their association. Exactly. That's that's that is like the angle that this crisis PR is taking. But does that make her like look good? You know, people are sort of using that to defend her and be like, there's also been a ton of stuff. Well, we'll get into it. Okay.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

So um, yeah, basically, we're gonna talk about like the ins and outs of that. It's probably not gonna come out in the same order I have it on the outline. So I'm already trying to jump ahead. But I had a couple points that I wanted us to discuss. Okay. So, point number one is that people can be both victims and perpetrators of domestic violence. So there's been a big chunk of the discussion online saying that this is reactive abuse from Taylor. I think everybody on the internet is now learning the phrase reactive abuse.

SPEAKER_00

I have not as a therapist, I hadn't even heard that term.

SPEAKER_02

Uh-huh. That makes me kind of suspicious that it's very like pop-side. Yeah, like colloquial. Like uh everybody's like, you know, how everyone's getting triggered now. Everyone's a narcissist. Like everyone's.

SPEAKER_00

I do think that it's a little bit like that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I'm I'm sure. So, but basically, reactive abuse, it's like claiming that Taylor was backed into a corner, she was manipulated and pushed into lashing out. So, like Dakota specifically engineered this moment, took advantage of the fact that she was under the influence of alcohol, like pushed her to break, and then started filming her on purpose to like make her look like an abuser.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and this this really reminds me of like the core of public opinion we really become accustomed to, especially when it comes to um Johnny Depp and Amber Heard, Blake Light and Justin Baldone. There's this intense gender dynamic. Yeah. And yeah, what do you think about the right reactive abuse claims? Well, what's what's your opinion first? No. Um I I'm honestly like struggling to form my opinion a little bit because I don't think that I understand this topic well enough. Because sometimes I would see that stuff and I would be like, you know, that makes sense. Like people are always trying to villainize the woman, but women couldn't do that, or whatever, and it's like, well, no, that's not true. Women can be abusers, like two things can be true. So I guess like I I think that they are both like very unwell people, and I don't really think that Dakota seems to want to out her as an abuser because he's in love with her? He's in love with her, and I feel like he's kind of been protecting her, but maybe that's an interpretation I'm super imposing on this. But I think that he can be a victim of domestic violence and also be like a manipulative person.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

What's your take?

SPEAKER_00

I think the scariest thing for me was that her daughter didn't make a sound the entire video until she got hurt. And to me, like that is a sign that like her daughter was so used to that happening already that like a taylor is doing this all the time. Not like not just with her current partner, but probably with a previous partner.

SPEAKER_02

So you don't think it's reactive abuse? You're like, no, she's she's the domestic abuser.

SPEAKER_00

I think that she p instigates a lot of it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, you think she instigates? You don't think it's Dakota provoking her to act this way?

SPEAKER_00

I I don't think Dakota is healthy, but I think that like I think Taylor again, I don't think this is the first person Taylor has done this with.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I wonder. I wonder if we'll hear more from the ex-husman. I will also say that a lot of clips have been coming up that um they're sort of like replaying for Mormon Wives where the girls, the other wives, are expressing how scared they are of Taylor.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I saw not like, or I didn't see it, but I heard one about Demi like talking about Yeah, screenshots of her texting about Taylor and saying like everyone's scared of her. And also that like she actually called out the like the violence that was happening in the relationship and they like cut it from the Mormon wives.

SPEAKER_02

Whoa, interesting. I will say that there was a time around season two to three, maybe where I was like, you know what, Taylor's so authentic. Like I'm glad she's like showing her rage, you know, because I wish I could do that and like blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00

No, I've like previously said I actually really like her.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. So it's I think it's also confusing because it's like we I think as a and we can get into point too, but like as as a woman and like as a feminist, like I wanna support female rage and I want to be uh generous with women and be like, you know, some of their behaviors, you know, are because they're victims of the patriarchy and they're lashing out or they're you know, this is how they've been conditioned, and so it makes me maybe slow to see the the real harm that is being done. And I I've seen a lot of stuff that's like if the rules were reverse, like y'all wouldn't even be considering it or debating it or joking about it, like because a man would never get away with this, like it's a big thing. Okay, but men have gotten away with it time and time again, and I've seen that too. Yeah, where but like I think that kind of gives me a knot in my stomach too, is like the videos that are like you guys would never criticize a man for this, and it's like, well, hold on. Uh nobody gets to do domestic violence. Right. Like I nobody. Right.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And if a woman's doing it, shame on her.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, shame on her, and also like I I mean I do have an agreement on a level around like the people in our circles would like never defend a man if that was happening. Like I do, I do agree with that. Um, and I think a large part of that is because systemically men get away with it all the time. And so we feel this like desperate need to protect women and like take their side because they're so often unheard.

SPEAKER_02

Why are we taking everything away from Taylor Frankie Paul, whereas the president is like a child abuser. Which is a of course a fair point. Like, absolutely. I know, but is it like what is that what are we hoping to accomplish with that argument?

SPEAKER_00

I think I don't know, again, I don't know if it's effective, but I think that people are like trying to like bring it back to like a bigger conversation. Sure. Um and I think they're like, okay, well if you're so upset about the Taylor Cranky Paul and you voted for Trump, why are you like you shouldn't have voted for Trump? Well sure. I think it's I don't know if something I'm not saying it's effective, but like I think that's what they're trying to do.

SPEAKER_02

In this case though, like let's say two people who didn't vote for Trump are discussing it. And they're like, Well, why are we punishing her, not him? And I guess it makes me think, like, do you think that we should not punish her? Or I've heard this argument with Taylor Swift too, where they're like, Well, men are so much worse, like and you're you're choosing to pick on her. It's like, well, I agree, like there are there's a higher ratio of men, but that does not mean that the women should be held any less to account and conflicted about that narrative.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think a people love to hate women. I know.

SPEAKER_02

I I I fucking know.

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, except and especially women who are like in the limelight, right? Are attracted. They love a takedown. Yeah. And so I think that like Taylor as a character was primed to be taken down and be all over the internet already. I agree, she's a mess. Um, and so I think that like that that's a big part of this, whereas like maybe somebody like Johnny Depp or like some football players, they're less likely to be primed to for a take down.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, so let me just bring it to that point. Um, that is that is our next point. Uh but when it comes to like Eminem, Chris Brown, Johnny Depp, like a lot of people sort of known abusers, and we don't really do anything to their careers, and I think that's part of what's making people so mad because the media is so quick to dogpile on a woman for something that men do all the time. On the other hand, it can also be less likely for men to be believed because people don't think that a woman will like abuse a man, or like Taylor Frankie Paul is a small woman, Dakota is is a large man. Um, and actually the statistics say that men might be more hesitant to report on DB because it's seen to be emasculating. So men only represent 15% of DB cases, but that might also be and they're less likely to seek medical care. So it's like uh I don't know, like I feel so because I'm like, if we're saying we want to get rid of patriarchy, that means we need to like also listen and hold space for men. Absolutely. And they're victims.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, this might be like where we actually disagree a lot, is like I don't know if we should incarcerate TV like perpetrators. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I'm anti like incarceration, but where are you going with this?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I mean like when we think about like restorative justice, I think like a big part of healing a community and like ensuring that we hold each other accountable is also like healing the person and okay I know we can't heal them from behind bars. I I think it's a lot harder. Um I mean like if you don't feel safe in your environment, you're not gonna heal. And I don't know, I don't know who feels safe in jail. Well, okay, well we'll get back to that. Yeah. So go on. So I think that like most people, and so I'll make it like of course exceptions, like jail Donald Trump, obviously.

SPEAKER_01

Um but like Okay, so why is he an exception?

SPEAKER_00

I think the amount of harm that has happened. Oh, so there's like certain there's like a line.

SPEAKER_02

There's a felony level child abuse. Like when you steal$3,000 of stuff from Target.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And then Okay, keep going.

SPEAKER_00

I think that like what probably and this I I think I might get some flack for this, but like would actually be better for everyone, including the victim, is like the perpetrator having to have treatment and like reflect and take accountability.

SPEAKER_02

Sure, but it uh if they have that treatment in a place that they can walk out of and go keep abusing people, like then that's not keeping other people safe.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I don't like I don't disagree with that entirely, and like maybe it's kind of like a rehab center where like you can't actually leave.

SPEAKER_02

Jail becomes rehab that's just like it's inpatient and whether you like it or not.

SPEAKER_00

But like you do have like other systems in place, like you have restraining orders, you have like you could have like location trackers, like there are other things that we could do. It's not perfect, sure. Um, but I think like to your point around holding space for men, like we do also have to heal the men. We can't just incarcerate all.

SPEAKER_02

I agree, but when I did say holding space for men, holding space for men, the episode, I meant the victims, not the perpetrators. I I think for me, like I definitely have a strong reaction to that because I I also think like abusing a child is like it's just like unbelievable. Yeah get out of my society. I don't want to rehab you something's fucking wrong with you.

SPEAKER_00

Taylor abused her child.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So is it is she unforgivable?

SPEAKER_02

Well, we'll get to that. So point three What is the responsibility of the friends and community involved? So remember Taylor is uh she was gonna be the bachelorette, but she originally is on a show called The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, and there's other Mormon wives, and they have a group and the group's called Mom Talk, and Mom Talk's not gonna survive this. And some of the other Mormon wives have come out on the internet with statements all highlighting the safety of her children. Um, they did know that there was an incident, but it seems that none of them had seen the video.

SPEAKER_00

So, what do you make of that? That her friends like didn't know.

SPEAKER_02

And some of her friends are like, me and Taylor are in a good place, but like I never support the harm of children.

SPEAKER_00

I just I find it really hard to believe that they don't at least know the impact that that relationship was having on her kids. Like, even if they didn't know that like her daughter had gotten physically hurt, there's no way you can like they argue in front of their kids.

SPEAKER_02

But are you supposed to tell your friend how to parent?

SPEAKER_00

If it's harming their child, like you need to call them out.

SPEAKER_02

Some people think vaccinating your child is harming your child.

SPEAKER_00

And they can say what they want, but you can be like, I think not vaccinating is harming your child.

SPEAKER_02

So it's it's interesting you say this because in the show, Taylor's friends are very frustrated with her toxic cycle with Dakota. We never really talk about the kids much in the show at all. Yeah. And part of me is like, okay, well, good. Like, leave them the fuck out of it. They don't they're not often shown on camera, and and the impact on them isn't this season, Layla like brought up her kids and it almost like jarred me because you're like, you're gonna have to get a child. Two children, yeah. So I'm interested in that aspect, but um the her friends mostly talk about her cycle with Dakota, and a lot of times they blame Dakota for making her lash out, like we said, um, by doing things like sleeping with people in her friend's circle, especially right before going on a bachelorette, you know, telling her one thing and doing another. So they have this narrative that he is intentionally sabotaging her and maybe that's making them support her more. Like what do you think their responsibility is?

SPEAKER_00

I I think we well, we talked about this on one of our past episodes too, where we talked about domestic violence and like the Ruby Frankie episode? No.

SPEAKER_02

Ruby Frankie, Taylor Frankie, Paul.

SPEAKER_00

I know. I thought about that when we recorded it the first time. Interesting. But well there I mean I wonder if I wonder if it's a Mormon name 'cause Ruby Frankie's a Mormon also. Huh. Um in T Wells differently. Yeah. Um I I think we talked about like at what point do you intervene in a relationship and we talked about like abuse is a time in which like you hear the other person out and you you be there for them and you support them but you don't necessarily be like he's horrible and you should leave because they almost always choose the perpetrator. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe these friends have just been keeping their peace. So are we to blame them? Are they obligated to distance themselves?

SPEAKER_00

I think the difference for me here is the kids. Like I think when like a child is being hurt as as a result of your actions as a parent, your friends have a right to say something. Yeah. And and like I would agree. And like even if it's like okay, you can do what you want in your relationship, but your children are getting hurt, and I think you need to like focus on that right now, that's where the conversation should be.

SPEAKER_02

That's what a true friend would do.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Like Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I know, and it doesn't seem I I it confuses me because I'm like, are the other women really afraid of Taylor? Like why I think she is very unstable, and we see her verbally basically verbally abuse some of her friends in this season.

SPEAKER_00

Well it goes back to the like what I was saying in the beginning is that like I this is not the first person Taylor has done this with. Like she does it to her friends too. And I think that like she shows a lot of traits of someone with borderline. She so shows some traits of like narcissism. Um but I think that like she doesn't know how to function any other way. I I thought a lot about her relationship with her mom this season. Well they showcased it a lot, yeah, and how like I think her mom may also have borderline or some some sort of other trait.

SPEAKER_02

Um what makes you say that?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I I the way that she talks to Taylor and is like You're being a bitch. You're being a bitch, or like you're I can't remember the exact language that she used, but she would just say really derogatory things to her and then and then like when she walked away from her, like and this was like what wandering. She was like, I'm going for a walk. Yeah, and then Taylor couldn't find her.

SPEAKER_02

And Taylor also seemed it did not seem like that surprising.

SPEAKER_00

No, she was like, Oh, I know where to go look for her. But yeah. But that's like a very like borderline thing, is like I'm gonna make you work for my attention because you have hurt me. Um, and and Taylor mirrors that with her mom. Yeah, um, where she was like, Well, now I I'm gonna go back to the airport because you're being awful to me. I know, she's just literally trying to try to get everybody to get along. I know, and you know that she's like she's probably like the like savior in that family, like trying to play the murder and like has done that her whole life. The way she's so calm when her mom and her sister are screaming and crying, she's kind of chilling. Yeah, she's like, this is like one of a thousand times. Get out of there, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Go get some therapy already right now. So this also, I I don't know if we're gonna solve like what should what exactly should your friend do? Because I'm also like, okay, do you say something when your friend's in a toxic relationship? Not necessarily like, okay, they have a kid, they're bringing their toxic partner around their kid. What's the line where now it's your responsibility to say something? Because it can be hard to determine that line.

SPEAKER_00

Let me ask you this. If you like, let's say I was Taylor Frankie Paul and we we were friends. And who am I? You are Jesse. No, I don't want to be Jesse. I really like Jesse.

SPEAKER_02

Really?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Really?

SPEAKER_00

We'll talk about it later. Okay. But who do you want to be?

SPEAKER_02

I want to be Miranda.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah, she's actually she's a good one. Okay. She's the gay one.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

They're all kind of gay.

SPEAKER_02

Miranda, mark my words. No, she did you not hear the comments she made? LGBT community. What comment?

SPEAKER_00

And the this season she was like, talk they were talking about exodus. She's like, oh, you're my ex-girlfriend. Like she like made a little offhand comment about that.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but anyways, not relevant. So you let's say you were Miranda. I mean I come to you and I'm like, I got into a huge fight with my boyfriend and I threw something at him and it hit my kid and it hurt her.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, but you Would you would no, would you make a CPS report?

SPEAKER_02

Yikes, that's really tough. Yeah, I mean, I know that the first thing I would do is like have a conversation with you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I would not I would definitely not just do it behind your back. I would be like, yo, we need to get you some help. Um, but yeah, uh, that's really tough actually to answer.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Like, but that's but that's the position that they're in, right? Like, I think like honestly, the correct answer is like, yeah, you probably should. You should. You should, but like, should next episode should I make a CPS report? I I know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you should, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, as like a therapist, I actually know some families who have been reported on by like their sisters, or neighbors, or friends. Right. And like they're always shocked. And I'm like, what what did it have to take for someone that close to you though to have to do that? Like something really bad had to happen in order for them to be like, I have to sacrifice my doing the really bad thing.

SPEAKER_02

You don't want it, you don't want to see it that way. So you're gonna do everything you can to like minimize it. Right. And she ha Taylor Frankie Paul has spoken on this and been like, yeah, I was really angry, yeah, I attacked him. Like I was the proposal.

SPEAKER_00

And that's why people forgive her because she's so authentic. She's so authentic.

SPEAKER_02

And it's like, okay, crash out queen. Right, no, literally. Yeah. I mean, yeah, dude, and it's it's it's tough uh because two things. One, you had said that like you should intervene with your friend whether or not it was physical violence, but right now you're s you're still bringing up physical violence as like the line.

SPEAKER_00

I think well, uh from I don't know the laws in Utah, but from a like social work standpoint, she lost custody of her kids, yes, because one of them got hurt, but also because she was so drunk she was neglecting them, and so like she was like causing a an unsafe environment, but also unable to prov provide for them while being in like having custody of them.

SPEAKER_02

Agreed, but it I feel like it that would be harder for a friend to recognize if the friend doesn't like live in your house, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. I think like they someone who has an alcohol problem, you see it a lot, it's not like a one-time thing. Yeah, true. Especially if she's like, okay, I'm like four drinks in, I'm gonna go pick up my kids.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, feminine rage, returning to that, and like female violence. Like if a woman killed her abuser, I would support that. Okay. Okay, so like it w you know, there's those headlines that are like woman shoots her rapist or whatever. I'm like, okay, crash out queen. So I think that's the other part where people are getting hung up is because like we're seeing this female violence, right? Yeah. And we're like, what happened to cause it? I feel like the big thing though is that there's a child. So I'm like, okay, what if a woman shoots a rapist and her child's in the corner?

SPEAKER_00

I I think like our there's a lot more context that needs to happen. Like, yeah, did she feel like the child was in danger? Did what happened leading up to that event?

SPEAKER_02

Like that's that's what that's for me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I will say that like uh another argument I see a lot is like what you mentioned earlier is Taylor's so small and like she wasn't really hurting Dakota. Like he how he could film that while she was doing all that him, so he couldn't have been in that much danger. Right. Um to me that's more evidence that like this is just so normal for them that like he didn't actually feel scared because he he had experiences many other times.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And it does happen where like you decide to start filming because you're like, this is the time I'm gonna like capture it. And like go to the police and like we'll do that with like other things like verbal abuse and like stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, and so I I feel like while that argument has some like validity of can can women quote unquote like be abusers if they're so much smaller and blah blah blah blah. I I don't think it actually holds up because a of course like they could be physically abusive, but like what really is scary here is like the emotional abuse and like the the lack of safety, everyone in that room felt, like including her daughter. Um, and I think like that ultimately like yeah trumps anything that could happen physically.

SPEAKER_02

I do I do agree, and I was kind of like testing out these thoughts, and as you're saying that, I'm like, okay, the I think a big line is like she was not protecting her her kid.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um and she was too drunk too. Even after he said your daughter's here, she threw another stool.

SPEAKER_00

And that's what hit her kid, like that's what hit the daughter.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. So to me, yes, I don't think that's redeemable. Yes, I think that CPS should be called.

SPEAKER_00

I think so. I think CPS should be called, but I do think it's redeemable. Okay, well, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02

You and I might have different ideas on this. So, yeah, if there is gonna be any redemption for TFP, especially in this light, like how how do you see that coming about?

SPEAKER_00

I so I also think that it's just pure speculation. I think she probably has an addiction.

SPEAKER_02

Sure. Like I I think her and Dakota use together.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think he's sober. That's my theory. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I think I think they both When he went over there the night before she left for the bachelorette, I'm like, y'all did drugs. Yeah. Because she didn't just feel like emotionally bad the next day. She's sick. She was sick.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I think they're doing some like hard harder drugs. Yeah. Um also like part of the bond. Right. Um This is our theory. Yeah, definitely our theory. Sue us. Um, but I there's it just in my gut, like, there's something more at play. Um interesting. And I think your therapist by ESO.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, also the fact that her ex-husband has been A really silent, yeah. And then B, I think has tried to get sole custody of the kids at one point.

SPEAKER_02

I think yes, and I feel like he also may have filed a restraining order. Yeah. And there's something about that. That might not be true.

SPEAKER_00

And I also think that the 2023 incident following that, I'm pretty sure she went to rehab. Yeah, you said that. I believe you. But not like not like there's like rehab drug addiction and then there's like treatment centers for like mood and anxiety.

SPEAKER_03

Oh.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and like I don't know which one it is. Okay. They just say on the show that she got treatment.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but I I wanna say that it's it was probably for alcohol because in the last episode of this season, Jesse was like, oh, and we can have alcohol at the party.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_00

So Dakota was there. Yeah, but like I think that they at the Halloween party?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

They dress as a red flag, remember?

unknown

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um I think that they think he's sober and can handle it.

SPEAKER_02

Dude, Shania, unrelated, but like, girl, what are you doing? What are you doing? Sweetie.

SPEAKER_00

You don't need to put yourself in that down that rabbit hole. Like, not good.

SPEAKER_02

It just makes me sad for straight women. I know. Okay, another thing I do want to say is like there's uh Taylor posts a lot of TikToks and stuff, and she posts a lot about how she's on a healing journey. Yeah. She posts a lot, like praying and journaling and with her Bible. And I just want to say As a former Christian that I I just want to uh point out that this can be one of the insidious things about the having an end-all be-all religion is that she's reading her Bible and journaling when she needs mental help. She needs to seek professional counseling, treatment, medication, whatever she needs, but the Bible is what she is relying on to fix her.

SPEAKER_00

But do you think she's actually reading the Bible or is she just posting about reading the Bible?

SPEAKER_02

I'm just saying, even if she is, like it just makes me kind of sick. Like I feel like that is part of what is so insidious. And the Mormon Church is like the real underlying villain of this whole whole story. Whole the whole series. A lot of this at least the series, not this domestic violence incident, but certainly the secret lives of Mormon wives, because a lot of their issues go back to, you know, us trying to be like religion, in this case Mormonism, can can make you whole. So whether you've been abused or whether like, you know, your parents were neglectful or you went through a bad whatever, like Mormonism, motherhood, wifehood will make you whole.

SPEAKER_00

Cause it's about like performing identity rather than actually healing.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I feel like maybe they are really trying to heal. Like I some of them are maybe doing their best.

SPEAKER_00

I think that yeah, with what they know, right? Sure. Like also so many of these women are 25. I know.

SPEAKER_02

One of them's 24, I think it's Layla.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I like two kids. Two kids, twenty-four. I continuously forget that, but like when they remind me of it, I'm like, oh, like they're some of their prefrontal cortexes are not developed.

SPEAKER_02

Not at all. It's I think that's part of why I resonate a little bit more with Whitney, because she's like 32. Yeah, and Jesse Jesse's also. Yeah. So don't get me back on Jessie. She she loves the drama and she fosters the drama. Tell me that's not true. I think they all do that. She is such an instigator, dude.

SPEAKER_00

More like more than like um, what's her name? Not Michaela. The other one, the bottom. Yeah. I think BC kind of like secretly stirs the pot.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Yeah. BC is very sly and judgy. And Michaela's kind of just a bitch, which I love.

SPEAKER_00

No, you do.

SPEAKER_02

Her dress is Blair Waldorf really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But anyways, going back to like if you think if I think that Taylor can be redeemable, I think I'd go back to like the restorative justice piece that I brought up earlier. Is like I I would like to believe we could live in a world where like people can heal and like her children and partners can receive justice in some way, while her also not having to be excommunicated out of her kids' lives. Um, and I think that like I think it's more harmful for just to cut her off out of her kids' lives.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. 100% your way back.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I agree with that 100%. I also think if she can't heal, if she continues to supposedly, allegedly be addicted to something, then like that's not safe for her to be around her kids, and so I I absolutely don't support that.

SPEAKER_02

I think there are certain lines or numbers of incidents that where you draw the line. But yeah, I guess she specifically in this case, there's a path to redemption for her.

SPEAKER_00

But would you say that for a man?

SPEAKER_02

It it depends. It it depends. Well, let me ask you this um where do you stand on the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial?

SPEAKER_00

I didn't like follow all of that super closely. Um it does from the bit that I have like looked into it, it does feel like sh he was the instigator a lot of the time. Um I think it goes back to the same question though, of like, does the instigation maybe not excuse or forgive, but like kind of give reason and a little justification to the like victims' actions and response? Like, are we are we also still not all adults and like have to make choices that are safe for all of us? What is that what do you mean though? Whose side are you on? I don't think I'm on anyone's side. I I think that like I if I had to pick up more on Amber hurt side, like I think like And then a lot of people were like she's a fucking abuser, dude. I and I think that's like the language that I struggle a lot with is like abuser, perpetrator, victim, like all of those things put things in this really black and white category when in reality things are often way more messy than that.

SPEAKER_02

Um yes, except when the victim is a kid, which is where I kind of come back to the lack of redemption, where I'm like once you hurt a kid, there's no coming back. I don't think like you get a lot of other chances. Like in this case, like it was so close to adj adjacent to being accidental. Yeah. But if you intentionally hurt a kid, I yeah, I don't want you here.

SPEAKER_00

I like I think in my like heart I agree with you. I think in witnessing and giving therapy to kids who have had child abuse, a lot of them all they want is for their parents to be present and be better. And they they will forgive the abuse if they can have a healthy parent.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but that's their kids. I still want to forgive my parents. But that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00

Like if if kids want that, who are we to say, oh no?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, kids want a lot of dumb things to kids want to try and practice flying off the roof of a garage.

SPEAKER_00

But this is their like relationship with their parents, which we know is like what the biggest determinant of their well-being, also.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe. Well, yeah. If the parent can be better. I just think there's so much delusion that goes into like hoping and waiting for your parent to be better. And I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

SPEAKER_00

I think a big part of that though is like the failing of our system.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, sure. But this is the system.

unknown

It is.

SPEAKER_02

People have to be better than that.

SPEAKER_00

I would leave it at the like discretion of the child, even if they're just a child, you know, like even if they're their prefrontal cortex is not developed.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I would leave it up to them.

SPEAKER_02

I one time talked to a child who reported her parent to CPS, and like she was I was working at a children's shelter, and like that's why she was there. And she was like, I'm just not sure like if it was worth it. I did the right thing or it was worth it. And I'm like looking around at like her experience. I don't know. I was like, yeah, I can't, I can't I can't tell you.

SPEAKER_00

I will say, like, again, I don't know like the laws in Utah, but it takes a lot to lose custody of your children from CPS. Like an ex it it it's like something like less than five percent of all CPS cases in Texas. It should be it should take less. Less than five percent in Texas end in removal for like a child being removed from the home. We gotta be taking these kids. It like the foster care system is also so broken. Like, so the fact that like Taylor lost custody like to me to me is like a huge, huge huge factor that like it was bad. It was really bad.

SPEAKER_02

I agree, but you're the one saying she's gonna be fine and you're fine with her.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I was playing devil's advocate. Is this where we reveal our true opinions? Well, no, uh yeah, actually, yeah. I think Dakota's more to blame than I r uh said originally. Okay. Like, I do think that yeah, I do think that he knew what he was doing in that video and was like manipulating her. Also, if you watch the first season, like you you see in the first episode that like she was like, he locked me in the garage, I like peed my pants because he like wouldn't let me out. I was screaming for help. That's why the neighbor called. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's why the neighbor called the police is because Taylor was screaming for help. Um so I definitely think he is like also an abuser in this situation.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um I stand by that. I think she's an abuser too.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um I think she instigates probably maybe not I don't know if it's 50-50, but I definitely think she instigates.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so that's like my true opinion on that like first point.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Was that your what you said earlier, your true opinion?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think I uh you did a good job playing devil's advocate more. I think I'm I'm with you. I'm so I'm honestly truly so confused and torn. Thinking Dakota is a victim to thinking he's a perpetrator, and I I know he can be both, but I'm like I'm sort of confused about his intentions. Like is he just that stupid or is he truly evil?

SPEAKER_00

Because men can be either. I think he has yeah, I do think he has narcissistic traits, like, and I'm not just throwing that word around like certainly is dead behind the eyes in a scary way. I think that might be the drugs. Um fair enough. Yeah, um, I think I think your point about like them using together is probably true, and allegedly, allegedly.

SPEAKER_02

Um she's also gotten very emaciated.

SPEAKER_00

They I mean they all have. They all have, yeah, you know, yeah, no, I know what you mean. Um, and so I think that like addiction and his narcissism is playing a really big role, and I think that like he found someone who he's addicted to, like you said, and then also has discovered that he can do heinous things and she will come back. Yeah. And he he's gonna keep doing those heinous things, like they're also addicted to the chaos.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, what's your real opinion on the like we villainized things men do everyday angle? Were you being truthful?

SPEAKER_00

I actually was being pretty truthful with that. Like, um, I think that like you and you said it too, like if we are to deconstruct the patriarchy, we gotta include men in that, and we gotta like hold their hand in a way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I I think I yeah, men deserve for us to hold space for them too. And it even though there's inequality and both things can be True. Like they can have sympathy for men. Yeah. And know that like the patriarchy is the system that created that suffering.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I do think that before we get to a place where we're holding their hands, this is where I I was not being totally truthful. We have to hold them more accountable first.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So like we can't elect a pedophile president.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Like we should probably not do that.

SPEAKER_00

We the like literally the bare minimum. Yeah. We have to do that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Of the bare minimum. Right. Okay, different combo for a different time. So how about your real opinion on what's the responsibility of friends? And or I'll say it this way, would you report me to CPS?

SPEAKER_00

I think honestly, truly, because just because I'm a social worker, I would. Yeah, I think you would too. And it may be something I would never tell you. Like, I would I yeah, no, I I would maybe lie about it. Because I think I would be really scared about like our friendship. No, more just like, could it cause more fallout and damage to like you or the family if you knew that like someone betrayed quote unquote betrayed you in that way? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um I'd report you too, bitch.

SPEAKER_00

Good.

SPEAKER_02

I mean we should really I'll have to decide.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I mean let's hope it never comes to that.

SPEAKER_02

I mean I just met Ari.

SPEAKER_00

Now I'm much closer with you. But I think like the responsibility of friends is really tricky because I stand by what I said about reporting people, but I I do backtrack a little bit in the sense of like calling them out all the time immediately when something is like bordering on like not okay because they'll start lying to you. Yeah. And then and then like it it does make something worse.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And then they also don't trust you, and they like they don't get better because they don't trust you. So I think you gotta be really careful with the way you approach that. And so I actually I don't blame the women of the like in Mormon Wives that much for how they're responding to it.

SPEAKER_02

I I certainly think we don't need to be focused on what the other women did wrong. We should be focusing on the situation with Taylor and the system as a whole. But uh if you're gonna come after like Macy and Michaela and Miranda and be like, why didn't you guys Okay, girl? Yeah, they obviously all have Dululu brains that were not fully formed and okay, but Miranda's a real one for she's like, I came back for the money, obviously. Yeah, I was like, because she does not try to contribute to the drama at all.

SPEAKER_00

No, she literally has dead eyes majority of the time. Yeah, she was just like, I am literally here for the screen time and the advertisements. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

And it makes sense. Yeah. So what would be your advice for somebody like how as a friend, as a true friend, would they find that line?

SPEAKER_00

Of like calling their friend out on like something unsafe they're doing. Yeah, when to call them out and then when to call in you know, I have d I have done this before, like to a friend. Yeah. Not about their children, but about their own relationship. Um and I I've been like, it makes me really sad and scared for you, like that that this is what's happening. I want you to know that like if you ever needed to leave or like get out, you can come be with me. Um and I also want to let you know like I d I'm never gonna like judge you for what has happened. I just want you to be safe.

SPEAKER_02

Um so you're but you're talking about being a friend of the victim.

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, I mean like I think there was some engagement on both sides. Okay. Um, so yeah, but like I I like I think even if even if it was a situation where like they were also engaging in abuse, I would still I still wanna say that I like I'm not coming from a place of judgment, I'm coming from a place of fear. Like I'm coming from a place of like sadness and fear and like wanting everybody to be safe.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And how do you find the time when you're like, okay, it's time to make a move on this?

SPEAKER_00

I think everyone's different. Um I think what's really important is that you never act like it's normal. Like I think the minute that your friend starts telling you about a situation that you say that's not okay. Yeah, you're like, that makes me really scared, that makes me really sad. Like, how do you feel about that situation? Is that something you've experienced before?

SPEAKER_02

Like Yeah, I have said to friends, like, I need you to know that's not okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Are we on the same page? Like that that's not okay.

SPEAKER_00

And sometimes they're not. No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And just because they are doesn't mean that they're gonna leave or it's always exactly, you know, and there's it you know, it's obviously like a scale.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I think just leaving the door open continuously um is is important. I really, really try to lead with like the lack of judgment more than anything. I think shame is the number one reason people don't share. Um so any way you can mitigate shame that's gonna help with people trusting you and opening up.

SPEAKER_02

Do you feel that the line when you would reach out externally for help is when like a physical line is crossed? With adults or children. Adults, let's say. Now we're kinda because we're talking about domestic violence.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, yeah. Between adults. I think I would want to. I think I think if someone called me and was like, I'm scared, like this is happening right now, I would call the police, honestly. Even though I don't support the police, I would like to What if they came to you and said I did this? I think and it's like it's retroactive, like it's like uh it already happened. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

They're not gonna call you and be like, I'm abusing someone.

SPEAKER_00

I well, people might call you and be like, I just did this, I'm freaking out, I don't know what to do. That's true. And then I might be like, is the other person okay? Do they need like medical attention? Again, no judgment.

SPEAKER_02

No, I hear you.

SPEAKER_00

In an emergency situation, I am I am calling like 911.

SPEAKER_02

Um I think there are a lot of friends who are like, I would bury a body for my girl, like blah blah blah. Yeah, yeah. But I I I do think that there is a p there is a moment.

SPEAKER_00

Here's the thing though, is that like who would I who would you call externally? Because like a police report has to be filed by the victim. Like they have to press charges.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So like calling the police in a non-emergency situation, you're not even gonna get anywhere. Um, I think I think I just would lean back on like, hey, like what you're doing is like really concerning to me. Yeah. And like, do you feel like you need help?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So hopefully that was helpful with advice for you guys. I hope you guys got something from that. So where do you what do you think is gonna happen in this saga? Like you said that you think something worse is gonna come out.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I think the addiction stuff is might come out. I think there's gonna be maybe some stuff around that that and that maybe that also endangered her children, like the addiction stuff. Um, I didn't know about the necklace thing, so to me that's like that might be the thing, but there might be another thing, but like that I think that's gonna be one of uh several allegations of like domestic violence and abuse.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we shall see. Any predictions on what the bachelorette is gonna do? Are they gonna like get a new bachelorette real quick? Like, what would you like to do?

SPEAKER_00

I've heard that they might ask Layla and Miranda to like.

SPEAKER_02

I've seen that, but I feel like somebody just is starting that as a rumor.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe, I don't know. Um, I probably would watch that.

SPEAKER_02

But if I'm being honest. What's crazy is like we were just saying in our last episode, oh, we're gonna watch the season of this. I know. We had we had no idea.

SPEAKER_00

If if they had still aired it, would you watch it?

SPEAKER_02

Tell you off pod. Okay, so it's time for our segment, Cancellor Comeback, where we talk about some light-hearted pop culture topics relating to the topic. This was tough because this is not a light-hearted topic. So some of these y'all might be like, that's not related, and that's fine. They're kind of also related to this season of Mormon Wives, rather. Right. Okay, um, so dating intro tapes, like the video tapes where they're like, Oh, well, my name's Susan and I like a hot bubble lap.

SPEAKER_00

Is that like what they would do on like MTV? Um, they have a couple dating shows on MTV, and I think they had stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02

I wonder, did they like send out VHS to people in the mail? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I isn't that I'm not unhinged, obviously, but like I well or maybe not so obviously. Yeah. They have like a um, I think they have a video and a voice note option now. Um where like there's a voice note. There's is there not a video option?

SPEAKER_02

I don't think so. Last I checked, there was a voice note.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, but like isn't that kind of the same thing? I I think I'm kind of come back. Like, if you can integrate a clip of yourself onto a dating app, I I feel like that gives people honestly a good read on your aura and like you can really decide if you want to go on a date or not.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, maybe. I think I'm gonna cancel. Okay, cancel or come back speed dating.

SPEAKER_00

Uh cancel.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, what the hell are you supposed to do with that?

SPEAKER_00

It's so it's also like so anxiety provoking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like I used to be a panic attack just talking about it.

SPEAKER_00

I know. And also, like, I don't know, I'm gonna sound like a leadish when I say this, but if you have to like go on a speed date to find someone to go out with and like that did sound a leadish. I know, I know. I just feel like there's uh better options than speed dating. Like, yeah, like you can go on like a group hang, you can go on a dating app, like you can like speed dating just feels like really like someone's profiting off. Yeah, like and someone's profiting off of you. Like some event you had to go to.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's embarrassing. Like just go to like a like join a sp a club. Yeah. Um, okay, which brings us to cancel or comeback blind dates.

SPEAKER_00

Set up by friends. Yes. I think come back. I think that like if it's low stakes, if it's not like this is my best friend and then this is my boyfriend's best friend, like yeah, that would be terrible. That's the dream.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, cancel or comeback swinging.

SPEAKER_00

Wait, cancel comeback blind dates for you.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I will say Comeback. Sure. Sure. For the drama.

SPEAKER_00

For the cheese make? Love is blind, right guys? Oh, they got they got cancelled.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, oh, really?

SPEAKER_00

Well, in our last episode we talked about how like toxic their production is. Oh, right, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02

Can't yeah. Cancel or come back swinging.

SPEAKER_00

Uh sorry, my mind went to the like swing dancing.

SPEAKER_02

To swing dancing for sure.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, if it's like everyone's like on the same page, come back, I guess. Like yeah, like if everyone's like consenting and like feels okay. I mean, how why do I care?

SPEAKER_02

You know?

SPEAKER_00

Not my business.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_00

What about you?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Come back, do whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_00

Put the watches in the bowl.

SPEAKER_02

Put the the keys.

SPEAKER_00

And the watches.

SPEAKER_02

The watches.

SPEAKER_00

The men with the watches, and then the keys, I think, are women.

SPEAKER_01

No, only men can drive.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, cancel or comeback, dirty soda. Well, comeback, even though I like apparently wouldn't like it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You have to try it. Cancel or comeback, blonde men.

SPEAKER_00

It's not their fault.

SPEAKER_02

They could die it.

SPEAKER_00

They could die it. Yeah, I I'm a little cancel on it, I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's not my fave.

SPEAKER_02

I'm cancel.

SPEAKER_00

It's like What are you, a white supremacist? I mean that what it looks like Zach? That's what it looks like.

SPEAKER_02

Zach, I'm like, that's a white supremacist.

SPEAKER_00

A Nazi. Yeah. I mean I'll say that.

SPEAKER_02

No, you can. I just like didn't think you were gonna go full.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, when I think about like World War II movies, he's the one that I think.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Your eyebrows are blonde.

SPEAKER_00

It's like something about the facial structure, like he has the square. He looks like fucking buzzlighter.

SPEAKER_01

Buzzlighter ass building.

SPEAKER_00

And the something about the fact that he's like married to like a Latino woman too is like barely Latina.

SPEAKER_02

She's half She doesn't even speak Spanish.

SPEAKER_00

I well, that doesn't we know that doesn't qualify. Like we're Latinos.

SPEAKER_02

Finally.

SPEAKER_00

But I think there's like a yes. In my heart, I'm like, there's some fetishization going on.

SPEAKER_02

If we learned anything from one battle after another, which I think went best picture.

SPEAKER_00

It did, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Which it clearly sinners should have. Yes, it definitely should have. So if you have comments, questions, criticisms, compliments, or concerns, uh, you can email us at true friendspod at gmail.com. You can find me on Substack and TikTok, and I did uh I did deactivate my Instagram again. Again? Oh my god. Uh The Better Bradshaw and Instagram if I reactivate it, who knows? I'm I'm in a toxic relationship. With your social media. Yeah, specifically Instagram. You can read my bi weekly column in the Austin Chronicle, or you can buy my novel, Good Christian Girls, wherever you buy books. But join us next week and subscribe and review to become a true friend of the pod.

SPEAKER_03

Bye!