True Friends

Episode 20: Should we stop watching Euphoria?

• Kate Vancil & Elizabeth Bradshaw • Season 2 • Episode 20

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0:00 | 1:14:25

Kate and EB discuss the ethics of the third season of Euphoria and its creator. We look at research, online discourse, and examine our own opinions about the objectification of women, the beauty standards set for women through shows like this one, and whether Sydney Sweeney has completely sold out.

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Questions? Compliments? Criticisms? Email us at: truefriendspod@gmail.com

SPEAKER_04

I feel like, yeah, I'm like, Sam Levinson, what the fuck are you trying to say? Like, what's I don't think he knows. Can you make a point? Or is all of this just a crazy, like, voyeur?

SPEAKER_03

Voyeur. Yes. And are you back on drugs? Like, it just like. Oh. Are you back on drugs? Welcome to True Friends, an everyday ethics podcast where we discuss the complexity to the decisions we all have to make. From beauty standards to politics, we're bringing you our hot tape on Modern Defeat. We might always agree, but we'll give our honest opinions the way true friends do.

SPEAKER_04

I'm E B, a part-time writer, full-time lesbian, and potential YouTube music convert.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, okay. And I'm Kate, licensed therapist, first-time mom, and clutter abolitionist. Okay. You want to abolish clutter. Yeah, I can't, I can't do it anymore. Yet you chose to have a baby. Oh, the clutter is. Yeah, that is what has brought it up and has a decrease increased the amount of clutter in your house. Yes, and I I'm losing it a little bit. I'm like, why? What's happening? There's toys everywhere. There's color everywhere. Toys? He's seven months old. You don't know anything about children. Seven months? I feel like, yeah. Don't they just lay there that time? No. I wish she just laid out. Does he crawl? Not yet. He is desperate too, though. Um does he has he rolled over? Yeah, he's rolling over. He's sitting up. Wow. He's eating real teeth. Stupid tooth. He has six teeth. Six? Yeah, you haven't seen him in a minute. No, I haven't. I need to see him. Yeah, he has two bottom and then he has four coming in on the top. Oh my god. Give him some meat. He had salmon for the first time today. Really? Yeah. Big fan.

SPEAKER_04

Seven months.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but anyways, there's stuff everywhere. There's stuff everywhere. And I we don't actually have like a room for him. Um and so like he's been like sleeping in our room and then we just kind of like move him at night. But I You're surrounded by stuff. I'm and it's gonna get worse. Yeah. Like the older they get, the more stuff they need. And I'm just like, I can't, I I don't know what I'm gonna do. I put him in a shed in the back. And just sure. When I my biggest fear is not wanting to red pill my child and put him in a shed. Mom raised me in a shed.

SPEAKER_04

Do we need a trigger warning this episode?

SPEAKER_03

We do, but I want to hear about your potential YouTube.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'm trying to get away from Spotify, and I'm fully aware that there's only eight companies in the world. So it doesn't really all owned by the same person. Yeah, it's not like unless I was to like hand carve an instrument and play it myself. There's no ethical way to like consume.

SPEAKER_03

Does it let you download music? YouTube? Like you can like download Spotify. Yeah. Oh.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And you can you can move your playlists over from Spotify too.

SPEAKER_03

And do we know YouTube is more ethical?

SPEAKER_04

Well, here's the thing. I don't know that YouTube is more ethical, but I think that the statement of getting off Spotify is important right now. So I'm like, maybe. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

We had had our whole episode on do boycotts really work? Maybe if I just don't look into it, I can believe.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, usually social media for the red billing.

SPEAKER_03

What? I'm gonna start counting how many episodes we talked about. You can you're deleting your social media. I know, you told that last episode.

SPEAKER_04

But right now, what I'm doing is deleting the app regularly. So I'm like deleting it and then putting boundaries around when I'm allowed to have the app at all. Couldn't you just do the time limit thing? Yeah, but it's so easy to be like ignore time limit. It's not, it doesn't even really make a difference.

SPEAKER_03

Isn't there like another app though that like will like text your friend to like to like let you? Yeah, yeah. So you don't really want to give it up. No, I like to have control for sure. Okay. For this episode, we're gonna give a brief trigger warning. Um, we are gonna touch on the topic of eating disorders, pedophilia, and child sexual abuse. Don't we always kind of touch on these things? Well, we're living in the time of these things. Of the Epstein files. So I feel like if we didn't touch on them, then we would we would just be really out of touch. So not to make a fun, but um I wasn't gonna say anything. Yeah. Um, but please listen with caution and take breaks or step away as needed. Um, we have resources or for support linked in the notes of this episode.

SPEAKER_04

But also subscribe. Also subscribe. Tell your friends to subscribe. We really want to quit our day jobs. Really desperately. Your day job, or do you not want to stay on pod just in case?

SPEAKER_03

No, my day job is actually fine. Um I but uh speaking of AI, listener, you did not hear our discussion on the AI descent into hell, but yeah, um, my job could definitely be done by AI. Yeah. And mine too. Yeah, mine it is, and it it is going to be one day. Yeah. My organization's just not there yet.

SPEAKER_04

My executive director like took something I made and just put it into Chat GPT and was like, let's use this instead. You're like, I'm like, I mean, part of me wants to fight you, and part of me's like, what do I care?

SPEAKER_03

No, literally like what you're paying me.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, like what's paychecks, buddy. Right. And in fact, pay me more. And just use ChatGPT. Don't even don't even ask me. Don't even ask me. Yeah, if you don't give a shit, I don't give a shit. Have you have you used ChatGPT for this job? I have used Gemini like a couple times. Gemini is is okay, and let's talk about it. Gemini is the Google version of ChatGPT.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, but the thing that gives the little like summary.

SPEAKER_04

But ChatGPT is actually less ethical. So if you are gonna use something, it's better to use Gemini or Claude than ChatGPT because they are the ones who took the contract with the Department of War. ChatGPT did? Yes. They're and they're being sued. And they're the ones that are run by the guy that's like a sociopath. So they're not all created equal, even though they are all bad. Yeah. And there are, I essentially am almost required to use it at work. Like not I'm I'm figuring it out. I'm figuring it out. So if you have to do something, try using Gemini or Claude.

SPEAKER_03

My husband is really into Claude, and he he's like, A, it's a much better, like he's really into Claude. Title of my book. Um, but he he said it's also a better like AI tool in general, like more accurate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Chat GPT isn't always going to tell you what you want to hear. It is not bound to the truth. No. Much like Donald Trump, the truth makes no difference. No difference at all. And they're all but they're all dude. He's been saying some crazy shit.

SPEAKER_03

I can't listen to him.

SPEAKER_04

Like, I just like I Well, do you not like listen to the news? I listen to the I only read the NPR news podcast. Oh.

SPEAKER_03

Because I I know if I listen to his actual voice, I his voice does trigger me. I will run his top light. When I hear his voice, well, actually, I don't even want to say. Um this is a public episode.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. This is they're all subscribe to our Patreon that doesn't exist. Oh my god. Okay, don't read the news, but do. But what are your top three news sources?

SPEAKER_03

Would you say I've told I've we've had this conversation six times. Well, not on pod. I just literally go to Google News and look at all the-old me this already. Yeah. And I look at all the sources and then I pick a couple headlines from different news sources. But I I follow this um account called ground news. Okay. Um, and they specifically take headlines that like our blind spot, blind spots, um, blind blind spots for the left or right. So it'll take a headline and be like blind spot for the right, blind spot for the left. And who's deciding what these blind spots are? They're looking at all the news sources on like that exist and are being like, how many news sources are reporting on this?

SPEAKER_04

Oh interesting. Because I've seen, yeah, there's some stuff that I I do read or listen to the regular news, but I also see stuff on social media that is not being reported on in any mainstream news sources.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like particularly like things in like Sudan and Gaza. Yeah, and like and in the US, and we yeah, and in the US, but I I'm sometimes like a little skeptical when it's like a just an independent creator, like sure, I do want to like believe that to an extent, verify it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, not just like oh, this is real so and so both so the clowns right.

SPEAKER_03

Um I also I also find that a lot of times those headlines, while they're true in name, they're not true in nature. Um, so like the one I'm thinking of is true, but I don't want to say it on pod.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, discuss it. Is it really dark? Yes. Okay. You probably already know, but yeah, we'll discuss it off.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, let's get into the topic. Okay. So this week we're talking about white men's obsession with infantilizing women's beauty.

SPEAKER_04

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Big, big words. Um white men's obsession with infantilizing women's beauty. Um, all that to say, white men are obsessed with making women childlike. And thinking that that is the beauty standard.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, recently I saw some kind of like surgery to make you look 13 again, and I was like, uh why? We're really just condoning pedophilia, like across the board. Like that's pretty much what's happening. We are in that era. We are in that era of like openly condoning pedophilia essentially. And that's our president, so and and I but I don't want to do you think this is the first time this has happened in history?

SPEAKER_03

Because I feel like I think we had a movement forward where we were like really we had me too, and we had a lot of like discussion around sexual abuse and like survivors, and now we've regressed because Christian nationalism is what's in power. Yeah. What about like ancient Greece and ancient Rome? Where they were all sleeping with everybody regardless of age, sex, or gender? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that was like not obviously not okay, and also people were dying at 22. Um wasn't adult. Oh well the kid kids, kids were having big kids, right? Like that was like the family structure is like a 14-15, you were having a family. That's fucked up. It's it's fucked up, it's not absolutely not a I guess.

SPEAKER_04

I'm just bringing that up because some people would argue, take that as like a justification almost, you know. Oh, this is how things used to be back in the day.

SPEAKER_03

No. I mean, we used to also like give birth in the woods, and half of the women would die from childbirth. Like, is that how we should be existing? Like the argument of oh, things used to be a certain way loses so much context, and people just use it to justify their own evils.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. You're so right.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, anyway. So let's get into the artifacts. We have to disagree on that. I remember. I remember. But this week we're talking about um euphoria and actually like a lot of the discourse around Sam. Around Sam Levinson. Um yeah. Um, but also just like the general beauty standard and or like beauty portrayed or not portrayed, I might say, in in euphoria specifically.

SPEAKER_04

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03

So, EB, you watch Euphoria. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And I want to say very importantly that this season three, I am pirating it. So I'm not on HPO on the record streams, you know what I'm saying? How so I'm trying not to have to do that. How unethical is HPO Levin Sin's pocket. Okay, because like, you know, shows are made or broken by their streaming numbers. Right, right. So I'm trying not to add to that. Oh, got it. However, I cannot not watch. Look away. Yeah. And I truly am horrified, and I truly wouldn't recommend that anybody watch it. I think it's extremely unethical, problematic, triggering all the things, but um, I will be finishing it up. I I have no choice.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I watched the first two seasons. I have watched this season. I have missed bits and pieces of the season, but I really What do you mean you've missed bits and pieces of this season?

SPEAKER_04

I fell asleep. Um, there's a lot of stuff I'm glad you didn't see. Yeah. Whatever you didn't see was for the best. Because every every moment is horrifying. And and like pushing the boundaries of disgust.

SPEAKER_03

No, true. Yeah. I feel disgusted. I feel anxious, I feel yeah, like affiliated. Yeah, violated. My eyes are being violated by this content. Disturbed. I feel disturbed.

SPEAKER_04

Disturbed, yeah, disturbing. Yeah. And well, we'll get I don't want to step on what you're gonna say. So let's continue.

SPEAKER_03

Um, for those of you who maybe have not watched, Euphoria is a show originally focused on a set of teenagers in high school and follows the protagonist Rue through her addiction. Um, it also depicts several other storylines, including Love Triangles, a transgender teenager experiencing sexual abuse, and two young brothers dealing drugs. It's always been dark. It's always been dark, but like got worse this season.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, this season is notably worse. And there's I'm curious if you're gonna bring up part of some of the reasons why.

SPEAKER_03

I well, one of the reasons is that technically now they're adults. And I think Levinson really wanted to like make this a adult series um of what it would look like if these like really fucked up teenagers became adults.

SPEAKER_04

Barely adults. They're supposed they they're the age that people would go to college, but somehow none of them made it to college.

SPEAKER_03

I thought they were a little older.

SPEAKER_04

It's a few years after high school.

SPEAKER_03

I thought oh, I thought it's like five years old.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, maybe they said five years after high school. Yeah. But none of them okay, none of them went to college.

SPEAKER_03

Or finished. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem like did any of them start it?

SPEAKER_03

I don't know if that's Jules, I think, was supposed to like art school. And then drop it out. Right, right, right, right, right. Um, so all that being said, Euphoria gained a lot of no notoriety and success during its first two seasons, um, which led to several breakout stars, including Zendaya, Zendaya.

SPEAKER_01

Is it?

SPEAKER_03

Um Yeah, I think so. Zendaya. Okay. Zendaya, Sydney Sweeney, and Jacob Alordy. Um, Sam Levinson. And you know who should have been a breakout star is Alexa De Mee. I think she's gotten more notoriety this season, actually. Interesting. Maybe not for the right reasons. Um, but unfortunately, Sam Levinson also got a lot of praise for uh his work being the writer and director. Yeah. Did you know Sam Levinson was an Epo Baby? I did an Epo Baby. I did know that. Yeah, so his Tell me more that dad, Barry Levinson, wrote Rain Man. Oh. That was like the most famous of his works when I was like reading through it. Interesting. Um, but he had a lot of like 80s movies and I think a couple shows that did pretty well.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

But he also Sam Levinson, not Barry, has received a lot of criticism from the recent season um because of just like his gratuitous like sex and nude scenes um and intense like slash borderline abusive workplace environment. But this season in particular is also really violent and like gory at times, yeah, and really really like dives into the like the gritty underbelly of society. And I while I think like some of these storylines are true in our world, to have them all in one place at one time with almost like no redeeming characters or story arcs, it's just like a really brutal, brutal thing to watch.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it is very hard on the eyes, very hard on the soul, and I think notable also that if you're going to bring these dark topics up, there needs to be some kind of narrative reason for that. And some kind of what are you trying to say? Are you showing gratuitous violence and objectification for the purpose of what? To what end? And and it hasn't ended yet, but I'm I'm very uh un untrusting that yeah, he's got something like obviously to say that's gonna make it all worth it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like where's the art? Yeah, and I I'm personally not feeling even if there is art, I can't look past all the other things to get to the art.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. Can we talk about two reasons why the art is gone also? Yeah. In this season specifically, are you gonna talk about the scoring? I am, yeah. So, number one, uh is it okay, or do you have to say it's later? Okay, number one, Labyrinth, who did these like all almost all the music for Euphoria pulled out with some kind of Instagram story just indicating these people are fucked up. I don't want to work with them anymore. And the it the show needed the vibes of Labyrinth. Like I did not read the show how much the what they he chose to replace it with, which is very like orchestral religious. Like last uh, I don't know if you watched last night's, but it's like Ave Maria playing during some club scenes where it's like I can hear where Labyrinth should be. Right. And then two, he as you maybe know, Sam Levinson stole the signature photography style of what's her name, Petra Collins. Oh, I didn't know that. And so the first two seasons, all of that crazy lighting that makes the show what it is, like all those purples and blues and like the hues and the angles and stuff, that is from this photographer, Petra Collins. It was her signature style. He copied it, and now in this third season, he's doing a different style. So the lighting, as you may have noticed, now it looks like a western.

SPEAKER_03

Very Tarantino.

SPEAKER_04

So, yeah, very Tarantino, very like breaking bad, kind of you know, yeah, very kind of like Western-y, very man. Yeah. And so with the s lighting, signature lighting and artist artistic style that he stole, and the music that he now no longer has access to that was made by someone else, I feel like these all everything that made Euphoria what it is is gone, except what Sam Levinson contributed, which was just absolute depraved, fucked up sexual, violent yes content. Depravity. Like depravity.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. In the truest sense of the word. Grotesque, un discomfort, like yeah, truly just the one that makes you like look away, but you can't.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. And I what I've heard is that he basically wrote the whole season alone by himself.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, the other thing I was reading when I was doing the background is he would come in and rewrite scenes on the spot. So the actors would have like come in memorizing their script, and then he'd be like, Oh JK, I'm throwing it away, we're just redoing it right now. And they would have like sometimes like 15, 16, 17 hour work days. Um Jesus Christ. Yeah. That is fucked up.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I it seems like he basically took it over. And when you watch the scenes, thinking about that man sitting alone, writing what was gonna happen, it's really creepy.

SPEAKER_03

Really disturbing, just really like makes me like question also a lot of like the cast and like how they feel.

SPEAKER_04

Well, we know that Zendaya has heavily distanced herself from the show.

SPEAKER_03

And but also like, why why even agree to a another season? Like, I did you already have a contract? Okay. Um, I just like have so much revulsion around this man and like the the work that he has done.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe the title of the episode should be like, Should Sam Levinson be locked up?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, truly. Um and I just like I think to the the point though of the topic of this episode is like none of these female characters have any of their own independent value. They are all adjacent to men. That is how they get any sort of like power or livelihood, and they're all adjacent to sex work, if not directly in sex work. And what is he saying? Because it does seem like sex work is very punishing for all of them. All of them. And I like and so he's like condemning sex work, but also saying your only value is sex. And so, like, what you hate women. You hate women.

SPEAKER_04

Like, I don't I don't really see another version, and like, and there's a sadistic nature to it.

SPEAKER_03

Like, you enjoy, you get off on humiliating, humiliating them, seeing them in pain, seeing them suffer. Like, yeah, every single season, the narrative and story arc of these characters, of these female characters, has gotten worse, not better. There's not been any redemption. The only character he cares about at all is Rue.

SPEAKER_04

I don't even the season though, I don't like she's I mean, and now we're not even really dealing with her addiction, which was supposed to be like the main through line of the whole show.

SPEAKER_03

The only the only female character that really is not involved in this is um Jules. No, um Lexi. Lexi.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and she's just kind of portrayed as a prude. They're like she's a virgin, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

She's a nerd. Right. And she's just like kind of like an extra. And especially in this season of Harley's. I know the storyline is so boring. It's so boring, but also probably like the only redeeming one. Um yeah, well, the only, yeah, she would be the only like moral compass. Right. And so it's just like like people argue that he maybe is doing some like meta reflection on today's society, but I I don't get behind that.

SPEAKER_04

We're halfway through the season, it remains to be seen, I guess. Yeah, and also I feel like he's really weird about black people.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, okay, we'll get into it.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03

I'll leave that for now. Yeah. But he also in an interview said that the season was hilarious. Uh there's been no part that I found hilarious. I've laughed zero times. Zero times. Not even when they put the pig in in the house.

SPEAKER_05

Like, the pig was fucking disgusting. And I honestly can't wish that I could unsee that scene. And I was just like, I

SPEAKER_03

Things you I think you're weird animal stuff in this season. Things that you're even trying to make funny are still disturbing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it it's very like male violence coded. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I'm just like who the only people making this argument that there is some sort of meta-reflection are men. Like I have not seen a single woman like make that argument in Levinson's defense, and I think that like speaks volumes.

SPEAKER_04

I I also just want to say I think the gap between men and women in our society is like deepening and it's a chasm, it's a canyon, it's a like I don't really know how yeah, like how gender violence is ever gonna be resolved because once I understand like men's narrative about how they actually view women, I'm like nothing that we say or do is gonna fix it, it's all gonna reinforce that to them. I mean, I think they just have to suffer so much that they have to realize that, like and if we are like, oh, we're not gonna sleep with men anymore, like they're gonna resort to like horrific violence. Like the 4B movement.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, continue. Yeah. Um, the last thing I'll say is like a background is like what is so striking and disturbing about Euphoria is the infant- I can never say this word infantilization of women as a means of sexuality. Yes. Um, so this season we see several cast members appear like significant significantly smaller than previous seasons. Um, there's like referencing of like pre-pubescent traits with like adoration, and even like a baby fetish is depict depicted with Sydney Sweeney. Yes. Um, and then beyond this, we see all of these women in power and balanced relationships to men. So where their entire livelihood is like dependent on the decision making of men. Yeah. Like even Rue this season, who is not attracted to men. Yeah. And but she's at the will of a man. Of a man, right. And like works at a strip club, kind of like like there's like this weird tangible, like, sex work stuff happening to her, and then also, like you said, at the will of a man.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Like she's completely like at his mercy. Yeah. Which I think is what Sam Levinson like really gets off to.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And then of course, Cassie, uh, isn't would you say Maddie is like subject to a man or Lexi?

SPEAKER_03

I don't know. Lexi, like we said, is me is like maybe the only one that I think is like a little bit outside of that. Um I think that Maddie, I mean, with the most recent or second most recent episode where she was clearly still so bothered by Cassie and Nate. Yeah. And then but then also she is trying to get into um being agent for OnlyFans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, which is still like I mean, she wants to make money, yeah, and she's like, this is the way to do it. Right. I think a lot of people were interpreting the wedding as like this look of envy. I feel like I do feel like we don't yet know Maddie's motivations as kind of a side tangent, but like we're seeing a lot of shots of her like staring at Cassie. And to me, I think I think it's a red herring a little bit. Like, I think maybe she has some kind of plan up her sleeve that we don't know about.

SPEAKER_03

I don't necessarily think that she's jealous, like, or envious. I think that she like she's bothered. She's bothered and like also kind of like I I think that she maybe thought Cassie would not be happy or would like have some sort of downfall, and maybe she's like witnessing that like Cassie actually isn't suffering. But she is. But does Maddie know that?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I think she does. I think she does because to me, to me, the look that she was giving at the wedding was giving like we share, like your current husband is my abusive ex-boyfriend, and I know the truth. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like I you know she's like feeling sad.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know. We'll see, we'll see.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. Anyways, um, my first point is men, particularly white men, set the standard of beauty as a means to have power over women. Um, I want to play a TikTok here that I sent you earlier, um, and kind of like go into where racism and the standard of beauty for women is really tied together. Okay, let's play the clip.

SPEAKER_00

Trusting my white homies when it came to women.

SPEAKER_05

Could they be like, oh, she's fat. She's a fat broad, bruh. So she could be thick as shit.

SPEAKER_00

That's something that gets me in the white communities. Y'all call every woman fat. So this is an incredibly nuanced conversation, but I can boil it down for you. Um, the way that whiteness views women, they need to be small, petite, blonde, haired, blue-eyed. Um, because it's all about dominance. It's all about subservience. It's it's and that's also why pedophilia is tied in there too. They want them small, petite, and hairless. All of that, the conventional beauty standards when it comes to white people, Eurocentric standards, and whatnot, they they look very childlike, uh uh Botox and all that, and trying to make you look as childlike as possible. Trying to make you as small and frail and petite as possible. Because when it comes to the size thing, right? It's easier for a man to feel like he's he's over, he's towering over you, he's bigger than you, he's stronger than you, he's the big protector, and he can dominate you, he can do whatever, he can throw you against the wall if he wanted to. When it comes to bigger women, you can't do that. When they got a little bit more weight to them, when they got a little bit more curve to them, they can't do that. That's why whiteness demonizes it is so incredibly fat phobic.

SPEAKER_03

So, as that creator kind of mentions, like we definitely see beauty in juxtaposition to power. So if you can't throw around a woman, then you don't really have power over her. Um, and I think we see that today with like you know, the Olympic craze, the Ozymbic fixation of being the pro-Anna 90s thin. Um, and I think a lot of these characters and women themselves, like the actual celebrities, unfortunately, like are also playing into that. Like Alexa De Mee, unfortunately, like she I think I don't know if it's she was such a baddie dude. I know, and I don't maybe there's something else going on that we don't know about. Yeah, we don't know, but she is like extremely thin, um, and it's a dramatic shift from standards. Even Lexi, who was already thin, she looks like emaciated, is the word that comes to mind. Yeah, and I feel like even um Jules Hunter Shaper, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, like, I know she's a model, she's always been thin and then's thin too.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, Zendaya still looks pretty much the same as I think so too, yeah. Um, but like just all of them seem so, so small. And part of me, I don't know this, but part of me feels like maybe like Levinson encouraged that or gave positive feedback around that.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well, but what if it's not the men that are asking women to be small? Like, women have always been insecure about their bodies and like enforcing these things on each other. Like, I don't see a lot of men talking about Ozempic and being like, I need to get on Ozempic. So, like, is it really them that are driving this standard, or do women have they just white women especially, yeah, always just like sought thinness?

SPEAKER_03

I do think white women play a big role in it. Um, and I think like I think about Snay Sweeney, right? Like, and I think how she nobody polices each other more than white women, right? You know, or white women policing women of color, like yeah, yeah, and but like passive aggressively, yes. Um I like also want to name that the only plus size actress, Barbie Fer Feria. Do you know how to say her name? Nope. Okay, she played Kat. Yeah, um, she left the show.

SPEAKER_04

She left the show and she said no.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, she isn't.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, no, she's that no.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's really unfortunate because she did a podcast episode um kind of calling out Leventhin and basically being like, he just wanted to make my character like the fat best friend. Yeah. Um, and I I didn't agree, so I left. Yeah. Um, and she in the first two seasons had a role, again, unfortunately very sexualized, but where she was like a much more dominant character.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and she was like one of the only like confident, secure, powerful female storylines that I feel like we had, and she's gone.

SPEAKER_04

And and what we do is like if women are fat or um or not white or whatever, we just like masculinize them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like Rue. Yeah, like she's a lesbian, she's very she's never dressed in like rex.

SPEAKER_04

She objectifies women too.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Like trying to just make her a man essentially. Um are they though? I I think in some ways, yes, some ways no.

SPEAKER_04

Because there are lesbians who like objectify women. Yeah. In a sexist way.

SPEAKER_03

And I think that they're trying to like, I don't know, when I say they, eleven sin, is trying to have some sort of like sympathetic perspective around Rue, and the only way he can do that is by making her male.

SPEAKER_04

Like he's it she's definitely a man's idea of a lesbian. Yes, exactly. And sometimes what I feel like men expect when they encounter a lesbian.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, where like I actually I don't know what personality there is to Rue, you know, like besides addiction and wanting to sleep with women, like she doesn't have a lot of like traits or wants necessarily. And so Levinson was an addict and like went to rehab. Um part of me feels like he just represents himself, that's like his self-insert character. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And he's disguising it through like another attractive woman that he probably wishes he was.

SPEAKER_03

Right. And it and it just adds a whole nother l level of like sexism and disgust and all of that. And okay, going back to the point though, like within what is the point? Oh I know there's a lot of discourse, yeah. Yeah, within this like series, we really just see youth and childlike features being valued. So like jewels this season, like her sugar daddy, sugar daddy plastic surgeon, like references her poreless skin. Yeah, it's like it's like that because you transitioned before you hit puberty.

SPEAKER_04

That felt so there's I I would say this season is like heavy on the fetishization of trans women through this character. It made me really uneasy. Like did you see the most recent episode? I I think are you talking about the plastic scene? I no, after that, yes, the plastic scene, I want to talk about it, but also the painting.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, where um where Hunter Schaefer did or Jules is painting? Yeah, I did watch that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I feel like, yeah, I'm like, Sam Levinson, what the fuck are you trying to say? Like, what's I don't think he knows. Can you make a point? Or is all of this just being a crazy like voyeur?

SPEAKER_03

Are you voyeur? Yes. And are you back on drugs? Like it just like are you back on drugs? We're gonna like throw hate, let's throw hate. Like, you know, like absolutely, but no shade to people who are on drugs.

SPEAKER_04

Like, I don't want to put them on the same level as it feels like a like there are plenty of pure-hearted people who are on drugs, you know what I mean? I would not, I don't identify as on drugs. Just partaking. Well, weed isn't drugs, it's medicine. Yeah, it's it's plant. Oh my god. It isn't, I mean, it's not the same as like opioids and stuff like that. The shit that they're doing in the show.

SPEAKER_03

No, yeah. But this like part this season feels like a like he mainlined Coke. Yeah, and then watch porn. And like that was And then he wrote this. And then he wrote this episode or this season.

SPEAKER_04

Like, I just like No, it's definitely like a fucked up man's fever dream. I think that's part of why. Wait, this is gonna be dark. Okay. I think that's part of why I feel like I have to see it. It's in the same way as we've been researching like the Manosphere and the Red Pone movement, and like I don't know if you've seen like well, we we talked about the Rape Academy stuff. Like, maybe I'll cut this, but I think that I am feeling like kind of like when we listen to true crime, a need to like look in the eyes, this dark thing that I don't feel like I can understand because I am afraid that if I ignore it and look away from it, like it's gonna come for me.

SPEAKER_03

You like won't be prepared.

SPEAKER_04

I won't be prepared, yeah, and I will miss like the signs. And I do feel like after all the things we've talked about, the research that we've done, like the things we've seen, I do feel more aware, and it it's it's making me depressed, yeah. But I feel like okay, I think I understand now more clearly what's happening. Like when the Epstein files, we will never get through a single episode.

SPEAKER_03

The news isn't talking about it anymore, so I guess we have to. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You know, when I think since those have been released, like, you know, I feel like it's a very before and after, kind of like with COVID, where I'm like, I'll never be the same person I was before COVID. Right. I'll never be the same person I was before the Epstein. Epstein files, which like that was super recent, so it's like maybe that's why. Yeah. Maybe it's why I think a lot of my like circle of friends, like the mental health is like wobbly because I mean we're facing something that's just so much darker than I think I even anticipated. And I thought I knew how the darkness and the evil in the world, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You know, I really didn't.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know if I yeah. I don't know if I'm still like maybe just in like a little bit of like shock around it and like can't grapple with it fully. Um I think I think I also like I almost have the opposite reaction where like I don't want to engage with this material because I feel like I already like seek to prevent those type of people from being in my life. Yeah. And then like by engaging with it, it just brings up like all these people that I maybe have already interacted with that are like that, and I don't want to revisit it. I think maybe that's a healthier way to look at it. I don't know. Yeah. And I I don't know, and I think I think I also just like feel like disgusted, right? Like I just like feel like that I like I truly can't stomach it sometimes, and so watching euphoria has had to be something I've been really like intentional and careful about. All that being said, we're getting really off. You are watching it though, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So why are you watching it?

SPEAKER_03

Uh partially because I'm like Vivek is watching it and I'm watching it with it.

SPEAKER_04

What are we bringing up? It's just wrong. Like, I don't want uh it would upset me to think of to think of a man seeing women in this like vulnerable position.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, he is disgusting. Like I think he's having a similar reaction to you where he's like, I can't look away, whereas like it's over so dark. Yeah, I do get that. Um but I I also think it's so scary. I mean, you live with a man. I mean sometimes I'm like, I live with a to be man also. Like I have a he's just a baby. He's just a baby, but like he'll be a man one day. Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know. We don't know that.

SPEAKER_04

Um, but will you accept your baby if your baby's transgender? We just found that was a microphone in your face.

SPEAKER_03

We have a literal microphone in front of our face.

SPEAKER_05

I know, but this is the this is the metaphorical microphone. Just keep going. Okay. I'll cut this. We gotta go get back to the topic.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. The transitioning prior to puberty scene really disturbed me.

SPEAKER_03

Really disturbed me. Um, and I think again, like Levinson is just continuously juxtaposing how women only have value if they can be taken advantage of by men.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and it it just reinforces this like standard of beauty that women have to be like small, hairless, yeah, poreless, yeah, blonde, like naive, not not even just like soft voice. Yeah, yeah, not even just like physically, but like I think a big part in the Forea show is like how they also seem helpless and like submissive. Submissive, helpless, powerless, like and that's part of their attraction. Like, that's part of why men are attracted to them. It's because they're helpless. And I so it goes so far beyond just like looks, and it goes into like truly, like you have to rely on me, and that is why I want you here. And it is that deep. It is that deep, it truly is that deep. By the way, um, and I I also got really, really disgusted by the baby fetish. Um I I'm shocked that they put that in.

SPEAKER_04

I'm shocked that they felt like they could put that in.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And then I'm like, I'm still watching it. So what does that say? And also like, yeah, they get away with it.

SPEAKER_03

Like they're they're like, well, not worse than that scene files, so might as well put it in there.

SPEAKER_02

I know.

SPEAKER_05

And then Cassie acts clueless, where she's like, Did you know some people have a like baby fetish?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. She's like, isn't that so crazy? Like, I can make lots of money with that. Like, she acts like innocent about it, which is like disturbing in its own way. She's not like this is fucked up and I'm gonna make money off of it. She's like, she's like wide-eyed about it.

SPEAKER_03

Right. And it feels actually like more nefarious. Oh yeah, yeah. Um so and I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

She also, I'm sure you didn't like seeing her as a as a puppy.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It just really I again I just like it just got Steve talking about it.

SPEAKER_05

Which is not the same as being a furry, by the way.

SPEAKER_03

It's not the same, but it's furry, Jason. Um so Levison has like received criticism for this, and I I think it's deserved. Um there's no women who really hold power in this season, and it in the in the show or on the show. You know what I mean? Yeah, make the show. Correct, like in or on the show, yeah. Um, and I think that like it almost is like mocking of their powerlessness, like yeah, sure. There is no really reflection or bigger message coming out from it. Like, it is truly just like of like mocking. Like, I don't I don't really see another narrative that he's trying to portray.

SPEAKER_04

No, I don't either. At least I yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, second point modern media plays into this standard without critique or attack. Um again, we talked about already, but like the re rising, the pro-anna era, and just the little to no critique from Hollywood or even stars themselves, like the women that we've seen shrinking in front of our eyes, like have not made any comment about it. Like, I I almost feel like none of these celebrities had even like talked about how, like, yeah, I did just want to be skinny. Like, part of me would almost feel like a little bit better if they were just like, I did do a zip and I I just wanted to be skinny, like even skinnier than I already was. And I was like, just say it, just freaking say it. Like, I don't understand why we're hiding it because we we're watching you waste away.

SPEAKER_04

But is it on us to say what we think women's bodies should be? Like, is it another form of policing women's bodies to say she's too skinny, we're worried about her, she's definitely sick, she's definitely fucked up, like we need her to be this. I saw a lot of that around the Ariana Grande stuff where they were like, it's not okay to comment on people's bodies, you don't know what they're going through, you don't know if they're healthy or not.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, so it's just as bad as like judging a fat person.

SPEAKER_03

I I well I don't think it's the same as judging a fat person because the beauty standard is to be incredibly thin. Yeah. Um, and so I I don't think it is quite the same. I don't love the idea of like speculating on someone's health, but I also think these people are in the spotlight and creating the beauty standard. So when you are doing that, you are responsible for the way that women and young girls see themselves and make decisions about how they want to look, and like potentially like the choices they make to harm themselves as a result.

SPEAKER_05

And does the media play into that, or is the media just reflecting in that?

SPEAKER_03

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_04

Like you say the media plays into this standard. What what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_05

Like who?

SPEAKER_03

Uh the media being like writers, producers, um like people who own magazines and gossip channels and like all of that. Like any anyone who is engaging with a public form of media content, I think is responsible. Interesting.

SPEAKER_04

I feel like that's different from what you said about the reality TV thing, which is just that like, you know, we it's not on us, like all we're doing is watching. You know what I mean? Like if they're setting that standard, maybe the media is just capturing it accurately. Like that's with audience wins. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, with the I mean, the audience wants it and so the actors do it, and so the media portrays it.

SPEAKER_03

I I think that the media is creating the desire.

SPEAKER_04

And what is their motivation in it?

SPEAKER_03

I think we have to I like Redis thing, I don't want to say it was years ago now, but about how like particularly in the beauty and fashion industry, in order to continue to turn a profit, once a beauty standard has been achieved, we have to create a new one in order to continue to make money. And so, like when curves were in and body positive was in they were able to profit off of that in some way. But now, in order to continue the profit cycle, we have to do something new. And so we just like cycle back into these other talk, like what is the now that we're so body positive and everyone is so comfortable and their range of sizes, we have to make everyone insecure in order to like sell them this drug to shrink their bodies.

SPEAKER_05

So when the media was reflecting body positivity and like all the dub commercials were like yourself, I mean was that that was the media being having a positive effect on society and like encouraging it to go the right way, in your in your view.

SPEAKER_03

Um whether it was positive or like negative, I think I think a lot of it was kind of like net neutral, but like I think sure we want to say it was positive because women became more accepting.

SPEAKER_04

And what and their agenda there though was just to create a new trend.

SPEAKER_03

I think, yeah, I think their agenda there was to make money.

SPEAKER_04

Sure. And they're making money, I would say in that case, by capitalizing on a social movement towards body positive, right? So they were reflecting what was happening in society to make money.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but we were moving out of the 2010s era where it was it was like again, like a very thin, very light.

SPEAKER_05

Like, so I don't think the media was like, let's help get us out of this rut we're in.

SPEAKER_03

No, but they they were not able to make as much money, right? Therefore pivoted to a different way.

SPEAKER_05

So they're just they're just responsive as to what makes a good business. So if the people are like then as back end, then they're gonna be like, you're some.

SPEAKER_03

No, I think I think again they're creating the beauty standard.

SPEAKER_05

Do you but did they create it when the beauty standard was like body positivity? The media created that as well.

SPEAKER_03

To become as widespread as it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I think so. Why?

SPEAKER_03

To make money, but what did they make money on? I guess, yeah, I don't know. Like clothing brands making more money when you use a a range of body sizes for a product, people are gonna buy it more. Like, yeah, I like they were it it is all a profit-making scheme. Um, and I think like we have to like women have to be put on a yo-yo in order for us to capitalize on them.

SPEAKER_04

Like, there's the the boomerang of imperialism, there's the yo-yo of capitalism, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and so like going back to like euphoria as a whole, um, I think that they really just endorse this shrinking of women, um, yeah and and that the idea that like they're no longer beautiful or useful if they're not useful to a man. For sure, yeah. And so I think again, like how there's no redemption arc for its female cast, like Levinson doesn't want a redemption arc for them. Like, no, I agree. He wants to see them suffer, destruction, yeah, yeah, self-destruction, and like that is represented in their bodies and and in their like their actual spirit, yeah. Um, and I think like what is really really interesting to me too is like these are beautiful women, yeah. And I think he is sending a message that they're like suffering is beautiful, and I I feel especially with like Sydney Sweeney and and Jules Hunter Shaper, yeah, like he is depict depicting their beauty as a direct reflection of their suffering.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, um, yeah. I I don't know that I I think that he's saying that their suffering is beautiful. I think he is simply saying, like, you will suffer. As a woman. Yeah. And like, no matter what, like, you can be Zendaya and have no not try to make like money from your body or capitalize off of your sexuality or your appearance, and you are still gonna like suffer unimaginable like violence and and um like manipulation domination from men, or you can be like um Cassie or what's her name? Jules, and lean as much into your frail, pale, blonde, thin beauty as possible, and you will be made to suffer, be taken advantage of, be manipulated and controlled by men.

SPEAKER_03

Like, you know, like he's just saying it, like fatalistic. Yeah, like at by default, because you are a woman, yeah, you suffer. Yeah, like the Eve narrative, kind of. Yeah. I mean, I think that like I I think there's some truth to that, but like okay, well, let me ask you this. Do you feel pity or sympathy for these women watching them? Uh yeah, absolutely. I don't think Levinson would feel that way if he didn't find them beautiful.

SPEAKER_04

And I don't think he won-I don't think Levinson would offer them any compassion.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think he would find them like he would not consider them worthy of empathy. I see, unless they were beautiful. And I think he I I don't think he's extending them empathy. He's not, but I also think he wants the audience to feel that way. He was like, they're you only feel bad for them because they're beautiful. Hmm. And they're only beautiful because they're suffering and because they're powerless and because they're weak.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. Well. Interesting theory.

SPEAKER_03

So that brings us to point three. Yeah. We talked about this already, and I so I think it's gonna be hard for you to disagree. But but I will find a way. Women artists who engage with these standard standards are complicit. So, like, obviously, I'm talking about Sydney Sweeney.

SPEAKER_04

We're always talking about Sydney Sweet. Yeah, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03

And maybe maybe we should talk about her less.

SPEAKER_04

Um I saw like somebody doing drag of her basically, and they had it spot on. Really? It's crazy. There's just she's dead in the eyes. I would send it to you on Instagram if you ever respond to what I send you on Instagram.

SPEAKER_03

I see, you know what's cute? I in my feed, I see the posts you like.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Because I follow so it's my way of communicating with you from a distance. Yeah. Because I follow so few people when like when someone does like something, it generally does like pop up in my feed.

SPEAKER_04

I send you stuff I want you to see. Check your DM!

SPEAKER_03

You have to text me, that's the only way I want to do it. I text you Instagrams. I I do to you.

SPEAKER_04

I know you do.

SPEAKER_03

Does it piss you off?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, just text me on Instagram. I'm never gonna do it. That's fine. I accept you the way you are. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04

Um continue. Uh, women artists who engage with these standards are complicit. Yeah. Well, how is a woman in Hollywood supposed to get a job, I ask you? I want her to get her job not related to her tits.

SPEAKER_03

That's in my that's in my outline, actually. People people want to say that, like, oh, how how else could Sydney Sweeney really get her back? You know, like how else could she really like have to? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_04

She does not have the jobs to make it as an act.

SPEAKER_03

She is not acting in this show. That is who she is. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Like, that's why this role like works for her, and in all uh every other role I've seen her in, I've been like, who's this bitch? Like, she's giving the least. The least. I watched the housemaid and I was like, wow, she could not be giving us any less. Yeah, my queen Amanda Seifrid was giving us all she had.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, yeah, Sydney just relies on her tits. And as someone with tits, I rely on them. No! But like I could. I know who relies on them. Ari. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Inappropriate.

SPEAKER_03

Inappropriate, but yeah, he it is his life source. So troubling, troubling. Yeah. Um, but she she is someone who is willing to take her proximity to men and step on any other woman to keep that power.

SPEAKER_04

And why shouldn't she? This is the world we're living in. Sydney Sweeney wants to make a book. Yeah, if she stood on her principles, we just wouldn't know who she was. She wouldn't have money.

SPEAKER_03

Then what? She wouldn't have money. And that would be better for all of us. We wouldn't have to watch that inseparable gene dad. Not for Sydney Sweeney. But she's she's like, in particular, why her? Is it because she's blonde and has big tits that you hate her more than you hate everybody else? It's because I feel akin to her. I just see a scratch mirror of what you could have been. I know. Um but it really comes at the cost of women of color. Like truly, truly white women will step on women of color to maintain our power. Yeah. And I think that, like, I don't know how I'm gonna argue against it. You know, it's okay. We're we don't have to. Yeah. Like Sydney Sweeney is the definition of that. Yeah. And the irony of it too is how deeply it's portrayed in euphoria. Like literally the stepping on Maddie to have Nate.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And I mean they had like this very racist, like her housemaid was like filming her only friends clips. Yes. Her woman of color who cleans her house.

SPEAKER_03

Right. And she was she literally was like, Did you ever think your life would be any different? And then the maid was like, I this what she said about like she's like, No, like this is America, like this is like some better, or like the dreams that I had, or whatever. Like, I was like, this is really, really gross. Upsetting. Oh, yeah. Um, and so like Sydney Sweeney just wants to make money and be famous, just like Cassie and she does not care the cost that it takes to do that, especially when it comes to black and brown women.

SPEAKER_04

What about the argument though that like someone was gonna get casted to play this blonde bimbo? Why shouldn't it be me?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I mean, do you think that like if someone who's more progressive than Sydney Sweeney like could have potentially done something different outside of the show?

SPEAKER_04

After being in the show.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know. Would somebody would somebody who's more progressive have taken such a humiliating like role? I I don't think it's out of the question. Like and then what makes them standing on their principles? Because by nature, whoever takes the role is selling out women, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I did see an interview, or not an interview, but a piece about euphoria and how a lot of the women did call out Levinson for his like excessive use of nudity, and like even Cindy Sweeney was like there were a ton of scenes where she was just topless for no reason. Yeah, and she was like, I there's no reason for this scene to be topless, and he did listen to her, and so like I I do feel a potentially more progressive individual and or cast could have made a bigger difference. Let us get to our real opinions. Yes, so going back to point one, men, particularly white men, set the standard of beauty as the means to have power over women. You you kind of said, okay, well, they do it to themselves. Yeah, women do it to themselves. Like that.

SPEAKER_04

I do think it's important to try to find like to the pushback against it. Yeah. And I do think that women do perpetuate those standards, but no, I think that that is 100% correct that they're those are set by white men who are pedophiles. Which is not to say men of color cannot be pedophiles, but but particularly the beauty standards that are applied to women, like we didn't really get into this, but like if you have curves, if you are not like super childlike thin, then all of a sudden you don't fit into the standard, which is weird.

SPEAKER_03

And you're you're like considered not attractive, period.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, period.

SPEAKER_03

Which is crazy. Yes, yeah. Really, really is. Yeah. Like, I mean, I just think about how like so many beautiful we've talked about this, like beautiful women who are in curvy bodies, larger bodies, whatever you want to call it, are so discounted. And then you have like women who are stick thin, and just because they're sticked thin, they're considered beautiful as absolute ugos. Medium ugly, right?

SPEAKER_05

Like we have some medium ugly women that are just excessively thin. Yeah. Yeah. And we're like, you're a star.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05

People think that way about Sydney Sweeney.

unknown

Oh.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Well, I don't want to come for Sydney Sweeney in that way.

SPEAKER_05

But I have heard that she has low-income white person eyes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Which like it makes me a little sad because I feel like I have eyes like that a little bit, but no.

SPEAKER_05

Your eyes aren't like half closed like that.

SPEAKER_03

Let's nuggle it in. But anyway. Okay. Next point. Okay. Modern media plays into the standard without critique or tact. So you kind of said like an argument. You were like, well, they're just playing off what the audience wants versus like creating the narrative.

SPEAKER_05

I agree that that media is sick and pussy.

SPEAKER_03

But do you think that like it truly is like them creating the market, like creating the demand, or do you do you think that like they're just kind of taking what the people want and playing off of it?

SPEAKER_04

I think there's almost no line anymore, especially with social media. Like we are all generating media now. And so when you say the media, that's partly why I'm like, well, who? Like the comp like BlackRock, like who is exactly setting these standards? So I think it is kind of like a snake eating its own tail.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. I I stand by it. I think it mostly like I don't think we all we have a lot of independent thought. And I think we all know. Yeah, we all know.

SPEAKER_05

It's the Truman show up in this bitch.

SPEAKER_03

Real bad. I think we all just are kind of like being fed content, and um that content cultivates our opinions and our beliefs. And I feel like you and I maybe can get away from some of the really harmful stuff because we've engaged in some like critical thought from our social media.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Which is ironic, but like yeah, like we also just like imagine being like an 11-year-old in this society where we have like these influencers, like and Kylie Jenner is like what you think you should look like.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, yes, and I kind of feel like we do grow up like that. Like when and like like the Tumblr era.

SPEAKER_04

It wasn't so much filler, but but the I think this is part of like why we are triggered by this because the thin thing was like our big yeah. Shh. It was like if you did not have a flat stomach and low rise genes, like you're nothing.

SPEAKER_05

Like you're garbage. Worthless. Literally worthless.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I remember feeling that way at like 10.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I would say I was more probably like 1213.

SPEAKER_03

It's just like yeah, feeling like if you were literally not the smallest size available.

SPEAKER_04

Do you remember before you became like body conscious? Like, do you remember being free?

SPEAKER_03

A little. Yeah. Yeah. I can kind of remember. Yeah. I I mean, I think it's just really developmental, but I just remember caring a lot about friendships and like being like really focused on having friends and not so much like fitting in per se. Yeah. But like just like having those social relationships.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I remember that there was a time before I felt conscious or self-conscious of my body. Like, yeah. I know that there was. Yeah. And I know that I can't return to it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And that I have to make something new. But it'd be nice to just be free. But I wish I could. Yeah, I wish I could feel that. Yeah. I mean, I wish I could like even for five minutes just like remember exactly what I felt like.

SPEAKER_03

I will say that like I one of the pros of becoming a mom, there are a lot of pros, but like one of the pros of becoming a mom. Yeah. I don't have time to think about my body a lot. And like I I think about my body in the sense that like I have to eat to feed my child. Like I have to nourish myself so he can eat. Um, but like I don't really spend a lot of time thinking about like, oh, my stomach isn't as flat as it used to be, or like, yeah, I lost my mask. Like So you don't think about it? I have thought about it. I have lost my mask. I'm working on getting it back. Shout out to Becky, my personal trainer. Um, but like my god, I forgot you over here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

You you how much do you see her?

SPEAKER_03

Once just once a week.

SPEAKER_05

Once a week and she personally trains you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And she's how do you how are you trying to get your ass back into a glass squad?

SPEAKER_03

Deadlifts. Um like the hinges.

SPEAKER_05

They hurt my back. Yeah. They hurt my back real bad. Oh no. I don't think I'm doing it right. No. I don't know. I don't have a personal trainer. It's just me and YouTube.

SPEAKER_03

Close enough. It's the world. Um, but anyways, I I do think about my body actually way less than I thought I would being postpartum. Like, I thought I would think about it a lot.

SPEAKER_05

And I kind of make it seem like you're going to.

SPEAKER_03

I and maybe I'm and maybe I'm like not the norm or whatever, but I just like I am also working, right? So I'm I'm working, I'm taking care of a baby, have this freaking podcast. Yeah. Like I'm a stupid podcast with this 18 downloads. Yeah. I don't have time. I just I truly have felt like I haven't had time to think of my body. So that that's probably actually the closest to feeling free that I have felt about my body in a long time.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. You're not free in many other ways, but at least millennial upside. To your third point that women are complicit, I do think that they're. Yeah. Um sorry, Sydney. Sorry, but I I do think unfortunately, like I think that we should hold men um to account as well. But yes, like women, if we are going to take this back, like women are gonna have to stand the fuck up. Yeah. And like like Alyssa Leo is such a good example where she was like, I'm not gonna starve myself. We haven't heard somebody say that in a long fucking time, fucking time. And she's still like an athlete, she's confident, she's beautiful, she's a dancer, she's a skater. Like uh, so we are gonna need that. And I'm not saying it's it's her responsibility to bring us back from the brink, but like we're gonna have women like solidarity system.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I um we talked about this about like how I read the next phase or next beauty trend is muscle. Okay. It's always what's the least achievable trying to get dragged. Well, yeah, but yours is for like a lesbian-adjacent reason. Um like it's always about the the least achievable thing of the moment.

SPEAKER_05

And so, like fuck, now we gotta do steroids.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, or or peptides. That's what it is. It's peptides.

SPEAKER_05

I thought those were for your face.

SPEAKER_03

They are collagen, yeah. Those are for your face. But peptides is a new like manosphere. It's a read. Yeah. And inject.

SPEAKER_04

Like inject, let's stop injecting things. Literally period. All things.

SPEAKER_03

Well, except we can have diabetes. But yeah, doctors. Doctors only. But like otherwise, guys, stop. You're like you're gonna kill yourself. Like it's gonna not gonna be okay. No, it's not gonna be okay. Anyways, so that's the next next trend is to be intersecular. But maybe you'll be ahead of the curve.

SPEAKER_05

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

I know you got some guns going on.

SPEAKER_05

I do. Yeah, can you see it for real? Yeah. Triceps anti-ceps. Look at you.

SPEAKER_02

Um, okay. Yeah. Sam Lemon is in watch out.

SPEAKER_04

And honestly, whoever. I honestly right now just want to hit someone. I you need to come back to kickboxing.

SPEAKER_03

Are you still going? I've been by the past couple weeks, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Who's teaching it?

SPEAKER_03

Donald. For those of you who don't know, Donald is the cakeboxing trainer that at the gym that Evie used to go to with me. Um, and he is intense. Should I rejoin? Let's talk about it all five. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Um but he's intense and he uh wants you to suffer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Not in a Sam Lovinson way, but and when men tell me to do stuff, I'm just like, no.

SPEAKER_03

No, I Wanna hit you.

SPEAKER_04

I yeah, it makes me mad. Yeah. I'm like, don't tell me what to fucking do.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Anyways. Um, okay, where do we go from here?

SPEAKER_05

I think everybody should not watch Euphoria except me. I'm gonna watch it for Eevee only.

SPEAKER_04

Purely for the critique. And we're watching it for the pod. I think that women are gonna have to stand up against this because I'm not really sure where we're at with men at this point. Like, I don't know, I don't really get what's going on. And so I have no I'm not sure where that's gonna go, or like I don't have a solution for it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I don't have a solution either. Uh, I mean I agree with you that like women have to stand up. I never have solutions on this podcast. No. Uh just complaints. Yeah. I I do feel like, you know, like the beauty trend, the beauty cycle is ever changing, and we're gonna get to a point again where like muscle is in, maybe body positivity is in, like, it's just gonna keep coming back around, but we we have to latch on to the ones that are good.

SPEAKER_05

Okay. And we have to make those profitable. We have to force the hands of the corporations. There is no way. There's yeah. Okay. Cancel or come back. What you got for?

SPEAKER_03

I'm gonna delete one of them because we one of them I was just euphoria as a whole because I wasn't sure where you were going or what your opinion was gonna be when we first started.

SPEAKER_05

We need to cancel it. We need to cancel it. It should be cancelled. But show me the rest.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Cancel or come back. Shows about teens slash like high school in general.

SPEAKER_04

Uh I don't know. Maybe we should just stop watching teens.

SPEAKER_05

If we're gonna do teens, I think we should, I think we should make it more wholesome. Like you've got to channel only. We don't need high schoolers being like fucked up like this. No, yeah. It's not giving people any good ideas. And if it's relatable, that's not good. Not good.

SPEAKER_03

Bring back Hannah Montana. Miley Cyrus, you heard your first. You heard me. Um, I will say I d I do like a coming of age story though. And I like I do think even if there's some like darker, grittier sides to it, it can be good for a teen to watch that.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Um I'm hearing you. So I I would want to stop seeing is the amount of sex in these high school shows. Yeah. Like that is really like even though they're adults playing teenagers, like, it's really gross and like weird that we're showing that on TV. 100%.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Okay. Um cancel or comeback. So I'm I'm canceled and you're comeback. I am comeback with a caveat.

SPEAKER_05

Okay. Um, cancel our comeback. Celebrities getting married in secret. Like Zente and Tom Holland. Yeah. My king and queen.

SPEAKER_04

Tell us how you really feel. I want to be them for Halloween. Are you you guys totally? I know.

SPEAKER_03

You could specifically the when Tom Holland did the umbrella dance. Yes, you absolutely that is. I every time that video comes across my feed, I watch it. It's so good. Of course she fell in love with industry. He is a dancer. He's a and a performer, an actor, like everything that he could be, he was in that moment.

SPEAKER_04

Zendaya and Tom Holland were rooting for you. Come back, get married in secret. I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to hear about it. Taylor gets married in secret. Oh, she never will. Please get away.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, stop showing up on our timeline.

SPEAKER_04

The New York Times interviewer or whatever.

SPEAKER_03

We'll talk about it off pod. Um, I've also come back. I love a secret wedding. I love a I want to get married in secret. I love a secret baby announcement. Like, I have just had a baby, you don't know what's pregnant this whole time. Love it.

SPEAKER_05

Love I hope to get married in secret one day.

SPEAKER_03

You will. Yeah, I definitely will. I probably will because it'll be illegal. Oh no. Just go with Tom Holland and then we'll know. That's true. Yeah. But yeah, I think you definitely should do that Halloween costume. That would be a good one. Yeah, well, this year we're gonna do heated rivalry. Oh, obviously. Obviously. Obviously, yeah. Great. Okay. Anyways, um, cancel our comeback glitter.

SPEAKER_04

Comeback. They were doing that. They the signature makeup is gone from this season.

SPEAKER_03

I know. Also this one looks like shit. Like shit. Because they're all on drugs. Actually, they do literally all look like shit. Yeah. Well, they're either on Osympic or like in real life or on drugs on the show. Or both. Or or drugs in real life. Yeah. Um, I am also like major comeback, like bring back body glitter. Yes. Like, so fine. I want to see like grungy glitter. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I want. Messy, like sticky for a couple days. Like, yes, so good. And not in the Coachella way. No. Yeah. We're not talking about Coachella anymore. No. Okay. Cancel it, come back, sugar babies.

SPEAKER_04

I gotta cancel sugar babies. I mean, because in my world, there's no need for sugar babies. There's universal basic income, universal healthcare, universal.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, you woke liberal.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, if I'm not judging sugar babies, but I'm not a fan because I don't like the idea of like a man having control over you and you owing him like I just don't like it. Well, what if it's a sugar mama? Call me.

SPEAKER_05

No, I I don't I I don't like the power imbalance of it. Sure, sure, sure. I don't think it's good.

SPEAKER_04

I think it's a really sick use of money. Yeah. But I'm like, I get it.

SPEAKER_05

No, yeah, I totally get it.

SPEAKER_04

I get it from the needing money side.

SPEAKER_03

I would not want to have a Okay, but hear me hear hear me out in a like maybe a little kinky kind of way, where it's like we're we're in a kind we're in like a consensual relationship and I make you give me money. No comment.

SPEAKER_05

Um let's move on. Okay, cancel in the real sense. Okay, okay, okay, fair about you.

SPEAKER_03

I mostly cancel in the real sense, but a little comeback in a sense like men should just be handing women money.

SPEAKER_04

For sure. Yeah, for sure. It's just perpet it's perpetuating that narrative that like all women are good for are their bodies. Right. And that men are like, I mean, I give you money, you give me sex, like that's right, that's what I'm good for, that's what you're good for. Right. It's like, no, men need to get good at sex.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and women should be able to make their own money that is equal to men. That's not related to their sexuality. Correct. Okay, last one, cancer comeback. Being emo. Who in this show is emo? That was that is the whole narrative of the show. Like, I feel like the first two seasons, like, that is like their archetype is like being emo. Everyone. Um, not Cassie, but like like Rue and Jules, and who was that other character that dated Jules?

SPEAKER_02

He played the guitar, he had like a teardrop tattoo or something. Or not teardrop tattoo, but like a face tattoo.

SPEAKER_05

I forget what his name is.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Like I feel like that was kind of like the emo of like these like melancholy teens that are like down for being emo.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I'm come back. Being emo is cool.

SPEAKER_03

I'm PSL. Oh. Yeah. Why? I just feel like it's such a performance. Like, I don't I don't interest But what if I really am emo? You are, I can see.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But you like you're it's true to your soul. Whereas like I feel like a lot of like the emo portrayals that these teens do, I'm kind of just like, oh. So I can be emo. You can be emo. All right. Just keep it at home. All right.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. If you have comments, questions, criticisms, compliments, or concerns, you can email us at true friendspod at gmail.com. But really think about it before you email us. Okay? Yeah. A real forel. Please. Make sure you are I'm doing it in good work. A real email from a real person who's not being really weird.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Sam Lemonson, don't email us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Or uh handles, well, you're wherever. You you don't even exist. But I'm at the better Bradshaw on Substack where I don't post, Instagram where I'm on and off, TikTok. Well, I really need to re-download it. I gotta tell you a really cute story about filming a TikTok for somebody yesterday. Uh and and you can read what I'm most proud of is my bi weekly column in the Chronicle, the Austin Chronicle, and then uh my novel, which I honestly regret writing, but you can buy it if you want. It's called Good Christian Girls, and it really put the nail in the coffin of my relationship with my father. Uh, join us next week and subscribe and review to become a true friend of the pod.

SPEAKER_06

Bye.