Episode 23: The "Boys" Are Back In Town

The pod is BACK! Tate has returned from their super secret mission and that means more episodes for you! We talk New Mutants, In Your Skin, 7 Miles A Second, Odin, Dark Horse Unions, DC Blackout and so so SO much more in this massive episode designed to go straight for your dopamine receptors!

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Yeah, we do we may parole improvise a song every episode, and she pretend she hates it, and maybe she actually does, but we don't ask if we don't care. Uh, we've been on hiatus the last couple weeks because I've been out of town and the rest of these Evos have been too lazy to record without me. So the fans, our many, many adoring fans, have been waiting uh what I'm sure feels like decades for new episodes of the podcast to drop. Poor friend of the podcast, Jerry, has asked about that. I've been getting DMs, I've been getting texts, cold calls, my mailbox is full. People are clamoring for a new episode. And here it is. This is episode 23 of the Absolute Ultimate Escapist Comics pod. Uh Pearl has rejoined us, so she's gonna hit us with an intro. Oh, are you waiting on me? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

I'm sorry your little pot princess had to use the potty. Um yeah, you know I've got a theme song ready to go. I've had so much time to think of one. Yeah, all of three weeks. It's several weeks to really polish those things. I always not sh listen, I don't have to explain myself to you. Um I'm in love with escapist. She's reading small books that have pictures. She's in love with escapist. Welcome back, everybody.

SPEAKER_06 2:04

That was the most important part of the podcast. Every week.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

You were so strong and so brave. I'm really strong and brave and smart and tall and beautiful. The list goes on. Yeah. Everyone's saying this. Yeah, Twitter's been blowing up about it. Not Twitter!

SPEAKER_05 2:22

We gotta dead name X for once. Um, yeah, so we are officially back now that Pearl has sung her song. We've got some news uh that Persephone's gonna catch us up on because I've not been reading my headlines. Um and then, yeah, we're gonna get right into it. Today we've got uh two guests, although I feel like Acacia is not really a guest anymore, more of just like a every once in a while member of the pod.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Um I'm like a cat that doesn't live there, but like just comes to your porch every day and you start feeding it, and it's like it's your cat, but you can there's plausible deniability. Like if they can if they get sick of me, they can say they that I was never here.

SPEAKER_06 3:03

Well, we would never get sick of you, so.

SPEAKER_05 3:05

Yeah. And then our fifth? Yeah, fifth member is my dear friend Ryan. Ryan Durrett of uh Sacramento. San Diego to Bay Area of Fame. Yes. Um that's the first.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

Are you s wait, are you still in Sacramento?

SPEAKER_05 3:23

No, no, no. I'm San Francisco from Sacramento by way of San Diego. We went to school together. I assume that you, Acacia, were a fixture of the podcast. I didn't realize we were both becoming a fixture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

I, you know, I I've I've been here several times, but she's familiar with the territory. Yes, yes. No one's surprised when I'm gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_05 3:46

Um shocking everyone, I mean here. Yeah. The subreddit's gonna blow up later. Wait, we should start a subreddit.

SPEAKER_06 3:56

We're gonna have to teach our like old man subscribers to use Reddit. Nah, Jerry knows how to use Reddit. Jerry knows how to use it. Of course, Jerry knows how to use Reddit.

SPEAKER_05 4:05

I feel like I feel like most of our listeners are younger than you're giving them credit for.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

I don't know how to use Reddit.

SPEAKER_05 4:12

Yeah, well, you're busy on 8-chan or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

Oh my god. I'm a Display. I'm a Discord kitten, if anything. I don't think you've ever been a kitten. Um beating the puppy girl allegations over here.

SPEAKER_06 4:31

Well, you are like a sky puppy, like the like a a bat.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Alright, now we're getting into territory that's private.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

You made public stickers anyway. Now we're getting into inside thoughts. Coming outside. Uh, let's talk comics news. What's up in the industry right now?

SPEAKER_06 4:52

We're gonna go through it kind of quickly because like any one of these things could take some time and we just don't have time to spend a huge amount on all of them.

SPEAKER_04 5:00

Um Dave Filkey's at it again. That's it. First of all. Eating eating the livers of his children readers.

SPEAKER_06 5:10

Is this like like uh like Saturn devouring his own son kind of situation, but it's like Captain Underpans biting heralds?

SPEAKER_04 5:17

It takes a lot of human liver sacrifice to get those books out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:21

I mean, that does make sense. That's actually the most believable allegation.

SPEAKER_05 5:25

It's just uh blood. It's just child blood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:30

Oh, I love that we're doing the Captain Underpans blood libel.

SPEAKER_05 5:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:34

It had to be done. Finally, a blood libel only for days. Okay, well that's the news. And and and much sadder news. Uh Marjane Sarapi died, um, author of Persepolis. I am not super familiar with her work. That is a glaring omission in my um. Have you not read Persepolis? I actually have not, no. Glaring hole in my readings.

SPEAKER_05 5:59

You've read Persepolis, Ryan. Yeah. One of your few comic canon. One of my several comic canon. Um, what did you think of Persepolis when you read it? Um, I loved it. I read it in high school and it was like the the non-complete version, and then I like asked for the complete version for Christmas because I liked it so much and I was an adolescent. So it was a great introduction to comics. It is so good. Yeah. I reread it like a couple years ago. Um just because I like wanted to see if it still held up, and it was really amazing. I like posted a movie and I rewatched the animated movie, which is also like if you're not feeling like reading the whole ass book, the movie is like also really incredible. Um I think she died of heartbreak.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:49

Quite literally, which is like really, really sad too. Um I think indicative of how deeply she kind of felt the world and sort of felt love throughout her life. Um is a huge loss to the creative community, uh, just the world in general. Um if you haven't read Persepolis, people out there listening to you should absolutely read it. It's just really wonderful. It's touching and hilarious and sad and joyful. Um if you have no go ahead. If you have read Persepolis, you should reread it probably now. Yeah. It's pretty metal. It's it's kinda awesome.

SPEAKER_06 7:34

We also have some smaller releases from her up at the front, as well as Persepolis, um, the complete versions. Um I forget what it's called off the top of my head. We can put it in the show notes, but we have another book by her that's less well known.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

I like that we keep referencing the show notes and like I've never even figured out how to write a show note in my fucking life. Are there show notes? Is that just what the blurb of the episode is? Yeah, it'd be like Oh, so I have been writing show notes. I'm just not without realizing that's what they were. We're learning a lot today. I know. I'm a pro, guys.

SPEAKER_06 8:07

Okay, embroideries, that's what.

SPEAKER_05 8:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:09

Um which I have not read either, but yeah, I love her style.

SPEAKER_05 8:14

It's so fucking cool. This like inspired by like Persian uh tapestry art vibes is so, so neat. Man, I haven't read this. I think we should read this. I hadn't even heard of that one until Corinne brought it over after she died. Um I'm I'm gonna take this time and read it.

SPEAKER_06 8:37

Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 8:37

Um yeah, for those of you listening, embroideries uh it's on sale. It's $7.50. Uh, so come pick it up. Um so far we haven't gotten the post-death speculator boom in uh John's atrophy uh prices, so hopefully it stays that way.

SPEAKER_06 8:58

Um what's next? We got uh very briefly, Dark Horse uh voted to unionize, which is fantastic. Um this is still a kind of a developing story, so I don't have a ton to say about it, but there were some like a week after they unionized, um, after Dark Horse set uh management said that they would um recognize the union, there were like nine layoffs. Um for kind of unclear reasons, and there's been a lot of back and forth. Uh union organizers who I believe a lot more than management said that they were not informed about these layoffs and that it seemed retaliatory. Management said it's totally not retaliatory, guys. Um, but yeah, who are we gonna believe here? This is still a developing story, so I don't want to be too um don't want to get too into it, but yeah, it's cool that Dark Horse unionized. Um I think more creators and and companies should unionize. I do know that they split their they wanted to have just um one single union between like creatives and working there and um like editors and stuff. Editors and like people who work in the offices um generally. Um the management wanted three unions, like kind of splitting up the the vote here. They compromised on two, so it's like office staff and then creatives. Um beyond that, um it's still kind of kind of developing. Um but also all support to the Dark Horse union at the moment. Um I think that's kind of all I have to say about that at the moment. And then the last thing, I'm going to try to keep this brief because we could honestly, you could probably do like an entire podcast about this because it just is that extensive. Um but for the last little while there's been a campaign called DC So White, led by JP Penumbra, um, and a couple other black creatives, a lot of queer ones, um, who are talking about there has not been a black-led mainline title. Um, emphasis on mainline because um absolute green lantern um is not mainline. Uh there has not been a black-led mainline title for about five years now. Um it was like 1200 days or something like that. Um and then as a result of calls to to DC editorial to actually have like a black-led book in the main continuity that wasn't wasn't a mini-series. It was the other part of it. It was like there have been a few mini-series, but nothing like an actual ongoing mainline. Um there was going there was um a boycott started and stopped within the span of about two days. Um called DC Blackout. It stopped for a number of reasons. The the organizers themselves stopped it. Um Partly because they felt like there was there was a lot of contention, both like between other black creatives about like what like about like if if the specific boycott of all DC titles, period, was like effective, or if they should be more selective, or like there was a lot of discussion about like if this specific framework of like boycotting all DC titles, period, or if they should just like boycott ones that aren't led by black creatives, like Jamal Campbell on Zatana, or Sheik Rayson on Absent Catwoman.

SPEAKER_05 12:26

Yeah, people seem conflicted because I mean there's an obvious sort of dissonance between like the boycott and the way that the boycott actively affects black creators and just creators of color in general. Yeah. It's also DC's lack of black characters is weird because they own milestone. Yeah. They they own like the foremost black created, black-owned, and like black-centered superhero comics publisher.

SPEAKER_06 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:52

And they're like not doing anything with it.

SPEAKER_06 12:55

No, other than other than like that one else world with Batman Beyond and older static.

SPEAKER_05 13:00

Yeah, there's like the static Batman Beyond book that I don't think anyone is reading, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_06 13:06

Yeah. And so it got stopped. Part of the other reason it stopped too, and this is the one that kind of breaks my heart a little bit, is JP Penumbra talked about that like because the the thing that happens that anytime black people ask for anything is everybody who's not black crawls out of the woodwork and says, like, well, what about me? What a- and it's like, first of all, like, queer disabled people or black disabled people exist, queer black people exist. Like, black people exist in every other, like, identity intersection. Like, I don't know what people think they're doing with this kind of like, well, what about like you know, like, what a what a what about like what about disability? Like, what it's like, well, yeah, there's black disabled people too. Like, don't it's like everybody crawls out of the woodwork when black people ask for things or anything and just kind of do a like a a a little whole like what about me song and dance, and that was part of the reason um the boycott was ended. Um the specific framework being like we didn't want to like take representation away from other people, and it's like a fucking bummer that that's how it like As if it's a zero-sum game. Yeah, as if it's a zero-sum fucking game. Um which was which was a huge bummer. Um that said, like, this the situation is like pretty dire across basically all of the major companies right now. It's like DC hasn't had a Black Led mainline title in about five years. Um Marvel kind of like Miles is about it. Like, Black Panther's mainly just been kind of sidelined for the last few years, and they're also putting fucking Miles on comic book covers with George Washington, so like. Oh god, that was so gross. That was fucking ugly as hell thing to do. Um Is that for 1976 or whatever? Yeah, because Marvel's like really leaning into the like bicentennial fucking 250 years, because Marvel, out of all the companies, is somehow the most conservative of all of them. They're all conservative companies, but Marvel's especially conservative. Um, and especially blatant about it. Umage, I think, other than Farmhand, which we haven't seen in a while, and Killadelphia, which we haven't seen in a while, I think has almost or no blacklet titles right now. Um it also begets the question of like broader questions of representation in terms of like who's behind the books. Um in terms of like actually having black creators working on books, not necessarily black characters. DC does have better with that, where in terms of like Chay Grayson, Jamal Campbell. Um, but that said, a lot of those are not on characters who aren't black, um, except for Absolute Catwoman. Um, anyway, this is a much longer thing we could spend forever talking about. Um it's just a fucking bummer that it started and ended the way it did, and it didn't seem to further anything because people at the end of the day are just really fucking racist. I I think that's about all I have to say on it. Oh, other than actually, sorry, there's a very simple solution. Just give black creators more books. It's that simple. Like, allow black creators to work on black characters or characters that aren't black. We talked about this before, Kate Sh on the show, of like not having like not not pigeonholing creators, letting creators just do whatever the fuck they want to do.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

Exactly. On that subject, I do want at some point today to talk briefly about um Eva L. Ewing's um exceptional X-Men. Yeah. Because I think that book is a little bit h historical, like a historical precedent, and that it's the first time a black woman has had an ongoing um mainline X-Men title. And um yeah, I I have some thought about the contents of the book itself, but I think we should be talking about it just because of its um, you know, its historical nature.

SPEAKER_06 17:03

Absolutely, yeah. We should talk about that. And kind of similarly too, um, Stephanie Williams is the first black woman nominated for I think best writer at the Eisners, I want to say. I think she's so good. Yeah, she's the first black writer, black woman writer nominated, and the first black writer um generally nominated since Dwayne McDuffie in 1995, which is pretty fucking embarrassing. Um really, really says a lot there. Um but yeah, check out, check out um yeah, we'll talk about Eve L. Eve Eve L. Ewing's um exceptional X-Men. Uh Stephanie Williams is doing Roots of Madness. She's going to be doing um. She might be doing a Vixen book. She's like suggested she might be doing a Vixen book for DC, but that's not actually been like announced. Um and she did Roots of Madness recently, which Walter has some strong negative feelings about. Walter did not like that book, but I know other people did, so um, check that out. And also check out Jamal Campbell's Zatana. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

That one's a good one.

SPEAKER_06 18:08

Like, for a for a book that, like, I don't know, have you read number two, Acacia? I believe so. Yeah, the one where it's like she's uh good like meets up with like Papa Midnight and Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like even though that is like a white-led book, that book felt like oddly like queerer, more like a queer and black story than like you'd expect it to be for like a Zatana book. Like uh just like genera like sorry, I'm really tired and sleep super well. Like, um like generational storytelling through song and also that like queer adjacent relationship she has where she's like mourning the loss of her like gargoyle that she's like in love with and like seemingly like fucking. Crazy that this is like a mainline Satana book, but anyway, go read that. That's one of the best things coming out of DC right now. Um Actually you know what? Do you want to talk about EV Wings X-Men really quickly before we move on?

SPEAKER_03 19:12

Uh yeah. Yeah, let me um put down what I'm currently reading, which I'm also gonna talk about later.

SPEAKER_06 19:20

Yeah, I was I'm very excited to have curious thoughts about that.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

But um, yeah, I read the um the first trade for Evaluing's X-Men, so I'm not completely up to date on the story, but I think it's like the first five or six issues. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's a pretty interesting book. Um, you know, the main character is uh Kitty Pride, who's back to being Kitty as opposed to her, you know, Captain Cage stick that she was on for most of the Krakowan era. Mm-hmm. Um and it's kind of it's a book about rebuilding and picking up the pieces, which is like the shared identity of like most of the X-line right now. Mm-hmm. Um, to varying degrees. But um it really gets back to basics for an X-Men title in this way, but not in because I feel like that's a common trope amongst X-Men comics, is like you're always coming back to like the fundamentals of of the story. You know, you always have to come back to the school and the students and the next generation and hated and feared and the metaphor and all these things, you know? So it's it's very a very it's very much a back to basic sort of X-Men vibe where it is Kitty Pride essentially training the next generation of mutants. Um, which is exciting for several reasons, you know. Wait, hold on. Have we not been recording or something?

SPEAKER_05 21:02

No, we have been, I think. Or character. For some reason besides us.

SPEAKER_06 21:08

Ben was so homophobic, he was like throwing hands with Chris Claremont, a man who is straight. Like Chris Claremont, a straight man, was too gay for him. Like that's how homophobic fucking Jim Juder was.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

I could turn her out.

SPEAKER_06 21:23

She's dead, but good luck, Diva. No, that's Chris Claremont. Oh, Claremont? Claremont! Oh, no, you could, yeah, you could turn out. I believe in transition Chris Claremont, honestly.

SPEAKER_04 21:33

Christina.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Christina Claremont.

SPEAKER_06 21:35

There was fights with okay, no, we can't, we can't, we can't get into it.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

Um we are recording. Oh, we are.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Um I didn't really remember how everybody knows about my Christina Claremont fantasies.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

Um, Kitra. Uh let's get back into it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Okay, so um, yeah, I couldn't find the book on the shelves. So I'm doing this from memory, but alas.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

It could be on the Oh, did you look back you look back there?

SPEAKER_03 22:04

I found the number two, which is great. I need to read this next. But um Alas. Um no, it's it's a it's a pretty good book. Because it basically takes the basics of X-Men and kind of like I don't know, it doesn't like it just makes it queerer and blacker and more like female-centered in this way. Like instead of like Charles and Eric as the fucking, or you know, Professor X and Magneto as the like central philosophical, like, you know, binary. Instead you have Kitty Pride and Emma Frost. And Emma Frost being the good, what is the what is the phrase I'm looking for? Well-meaning, but ultimately a little oblivious at times, just coming from a level of like privilege and a perspective of always, you know, control and manipulation being the means to ends, in her case, for most of the time, in most cases, you know, and also coming from a background of being like the headmistress of a school and you know, running a nation and all these different things. And Kitty has experience in all these areas, but also she has the experience of being the next generation of X-Men, of being the trauma traumatized child soldier, you know, basically, you know, I don't know. So it's like so Kitty being the headmistress is kind of this thing where she's like, she doesn't really believe in the mission. Or rather, she is living proof of the fact that this isn't necessarily a good thing, taking children and turning them into superheroes, you know.

SPEAKER_06 23:51

Yeah, the mission's always failed, like failed her a number of times. Like, I mean, one of her most famous is like Professor Xavier is a jerk. Exactly. She or needs her not being met.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Exactly. And then she just ends up with all these younger mutants like under her, and she has to she is in a position to um you know, where she's has this responsibility hoisted into her onto her, and she has to decide, like, how am I going to to deal with this? Like, how am I going to to do right by these kids in the ways that I have been not done right by, you know? And it's um it's pretty interesting. And um I don't know, without getting too much into spoiler territory. I don't know. I think the characters are good. You know, the next generation of mutants is pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

I like the the new mutants that are appearing. Yeah, yeah. All the kids and like all their little backstories on like how they find everybody. I hate kids. Well, that's because you're gay.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

That hasn't been confirmed. I haven't been tested. Can't prove shit.

SPEAKER_06 24:58

It's like radiation. You don't need to get tested for that if you know. I'm just giving you what? Cancer?

SPEAKER_03 25:08

Dr. Gay Hott and over here.

SPEAKER_05 25:10

Wait, what do you do you think that you can see radiation? No, but you feel it. Just exuding it, babe. Yeah, it's a pride. Happy pride.

SPEAKER_06 25:20

She's given.

SPEAKER_05 25:21

It's July in my head. You go for it. June's over in my head. June is like my 13th story of a building in my brain. It just isn't there. Next month on the calendar just doesn't exist. That's healthy.

SPEAKER_06 25:38

Sorry, you were saying uh Acacia about um Kitty Pride.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

Oh, yeah, and I was saying the next generation of mutants. You know, I like them so far. Over five issues, I haven't really gotten to know them like that that thoroughly. But um, you know, they they fit certain certain archetypes, you know. You got the one that's kind of shy and reserved and needs to learn the confidence to use her powers, and the one who's brash, and you know, uh, what do you call it?

unknown 26:05

No cards and any type.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Oh, the words escaping my mind. Impulsive, you know, and wants to help and is always like doing too much. And you know, all these different, but they're very they feel very real and very like lived in, you know, which is like I think a hallmark of of Eve's writing is she writes characters that feel like real people that you know, especially if you come from like, you know, backgrounds of like living in cities as or amongst people of color, and like you know, it doesn't feel as much as like these comic stock characters, or rather, like they do hit these tropes, but in a way where it's just like I don't know, many of these characters are like, yeah, I I know that person in real life, you know.

SPEAKER_06 26:48

Absolutely, yeah. So this is kind of like link it back a little bit to what we've kind of been talking about. It's like, and I think we've said this on the show before too, is that like A, like you can have like even without like characters who are like explicitly forwardly, like either black or queer, or etc. Like, you can have like black stories, disabled stories, queer stories, like within stories that maybe like quote unquote representationally are not that. And then also if you just bring in writers of like different backgrounds, like they bring something to the book that like the same like ten old heads who have been in the the scene for like 30, 40 years, like Mark Millar recycling his his fucking like garbage.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Yeah, like on a fundamental level, there's this way that the mutant metaphor kind of doesn't work, or I don't know. It it is complicated when people are like marginalized in real life and in their mutants, and this book takes that on directly in that like none of the main cast is like a no, none of them are straight white males. The closest thing you get to to that is um Iceman, who is about as not straight as a major Marvel comics character is allowed to be.

SPEAKER_05 28:03

Um That was something that really pissed me off when they made Ms. Marvel a mutant, was um sh they always had her be like, wow, it's like so interesting, like learning about what oppression is like uh as a mutant, because I've never really experienced it, and like I just feel like I'm getting all these new experiences, but she's literally like a Muslim Pakistani woman in the US.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

It's bad canon. Because if you read the original run of Miss Marvel, which I haven't, I've read a lot of summaries and like little bits and pieces of it, but even the amount of it that I've read, like they tackle these issues directly.

SPEAKER_05 28:40

Yeah, like some of the stories are about like fascist police violence against people of color in her community.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

I mean, even the Disney Plus television show, like, touches these points. You know, like it's yeah, for some for them to be like, oh, but now she's a mutable. Well, it's like Wolverine teaches her about oppression. You don't know It's kind of like how as trans women, like you sometimes get this like welcome to womanhood moment, and you're just like, This is not the first time I've experienced marginalization. Shut the fuck up. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 29:14

So this woman really think they are the first and only person to ever experience misogyny.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Seriously.

SPEAKER_06 29:20

But but yeah, to like that sounds great. I'll actually have to check this book out. I've been missing like X-Men, like newer X-Men kids, like you'd think that there would be more like X-Men kids coming into and they're kind of like for the most part really hasn't since like Morrison? Like new X-Men? Like, was that the last time we got like a batch of like No, the um what do you call it?

SPEAKER_03 29:46

The Avengers vs. X-Men era when you had the Wolverine and the X-Men book, and that's where we got introduced to like Idea Conquell and like Kid Apocalypse. You had X-23 too. X23, well she was introduced in the book that you had me read in like X-Men. And then she had a little sister at a certain point that you can I I guess the new X-Men book in I can't believe I made you read NYS. So funny. The new X-Men book in the Krakoan era sort of like did that a little bit. Um not the not the first first run with the fucking uh what do you call it? The Hickman and whoever the fuck else kind of just like playing the hits with like the OG new mutants, but after that, like the um was that Evel Ewing again who did it?

SPEAKER_06 30:38

That was uh that was that was Vida'ala.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Vidayella. Vida'ala, yeah. Vita Yela's run would kind of introduce a new generation to an extent.

SPEAKER_06 30:46

Yeah. Oh, that's excellent. Okay. I forgot about Vidayela's new mutants.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Um But it it's happened, but it's just like most of the characters just get shuffled off to the side so quickly. Which I guess has always happened. You know, you'll get a generation of new X-Men and then a couple of them will move on to like maintaining you know, get to be on the real team and get to be in the middle of the main events, like.

SPEAKER_05 31:11

Which I do kind of think it's like uh that's true of like the Avengers and stuff too, I think. Like, I mean I think part of that is just like the nature of like Marvel comics team up stuff, you know, it's like you add an Avenger and then like people don't like them or whatever and they get shoved off to the side. But the issue is like most consistently, like I was talking to uh Sophie Campbell about this, but she was like, There's no ongoing queer comic book characters, basically for the same reason, because like you introduce a new one, a run ends, and then DC's like, oh yeah, cool, like let's make a new one instead of like Yeah, I feel like that could segue into the book that Pearl was reading today.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:53

Wait, do you want to finish up anything you had to say though?

SPEAKER_03 31:56

I didn't mean to cut you off. Um No, not really. I I could ramble on more about like new generations of mutants and which ones get prominence and why, you know, but uh I think we can move on. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:12

Pearl, talk to us about the the gay girls that you were reading about. Um, I what the issue? Is it this one? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:19

It was number That's number one. I read number one. Oh, you read number one, okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:23

Yeah, so just to give people.

SPEAKER_06 32:27

No, I'm pretty sure that's issue three. No, that's issue one, I think. Is that issue?

SPEAKER_05 32:30

That's issue one.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

Oh, it is issue one.

SPEAKER_06 32:32

We know our numbers for S and B. Apparently I don't know my numbers.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

This is my first comic book.

SPEAKER_06 32:37

I think it might be my first rodeo, but that's a different bit. Yeah, thank you. That's a different bit. Is someone just walk in? No. That's Walter in the closet. Open the closet! Open the c- God damn it. When will Walter ever come out?

SPEAKER_04 32:55

Of the closet. It's Pride, goddammit. Oh, this got damaged. What happened there?

SPEAKER_06 33:00

Oh, that was a that was a tear. Anyway, tell us about tell us a little bit about Justice League Dream Girls.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Um, well, it features uh two gay superheroes that I really don't know that much about. Uh it's Galaxy and what's her name? Nia.

SPEAKER_06 33:13

Uh Dreamer.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Dreamer.

SPEAKER_06 33:15

They're they're both trans women, to be, to be clear. They're tr they're trans women who were like introduced in like middle reader books like three years back and have just kind of continuously been like Galaxy was in like the really gay hockey girl book. Anyway.

SPEAKER_04 33:31

I remember Galaxy. I've seen Galaxy many times. Uh Dreamer. I see her all the time on like the trans or on the uh like DC Pride. Like she always she always I only ever see her when it's Pride. They love to send us a little DC Pride poster and like she's always on it. She's and I'm always like, I never see her in anything, but she's like part of like the the gay uh you know, DC troop of of gay gays.

SPEAKER_06 34:01

So she was she was she was I didn't read this book, but they talk about it a lot in the first and second issue of of Dream Girls. She was like a big part of Absolute Power. She like was like really involved with Amanda Waller's blah blah blah team, blah blah blah, war crimes, blah blah blah. What war crimes means exactly, I don't know, because I didn't you're not gonna give me to read obscene.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

I wish she had that like iconic line about like Amanda Waller won't pay for my like bottom surgery or something.

SPEAKER_06 34:29

But yeah, that's in I think issue two.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Amanda Waller!

SPEAKER_06 34:33

Oh yeah, Amanda Waller didn't give us paid time off for gender-affirming surgery. They do say some crazy shit in this, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

Wow. Stunned to silence right now on the pod. Galaxy is maybe the gayest design of a superhero I maybe have ever seen. She's just got like glittery, hot pink fuchsia skin uh bulging breastily about. Uh she does, and just like teal hair down to her knees.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

What are your double hands on his her weird head thing?

SPEAKER_04 35:12

His what do you mean his a whore? This is a woman! I said her weird head thing. Um the thing. Okay, so yeah, they gave her this strange design where she has like a flap of skin going over her head that maybe looks like she's wearing headphones.

SPEAKER_05 35:26

I was gonna say they look like headphones.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

I don't like it. She's an alien.

SPEAKER_06 35:29

It's kind of bad. I'm gonna go on record on gonna say it's bad.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

I don't like it. We're sticking with it. Um, she's an alien, and that's just part of her alien physiology.

SPEAKER_05 35:39

Why not just give her horns?

SPEAKER_04 35:41

Right? Like, get you What trans woman is playing Baldur's Gate 3 and doesn't pick to be a girl with horns?

SPEAKER_05 35:48

Oh, and maybe maybe they were like, you know what? What do trans women have? Massive, really expensive headphones with little cat ears on them. But they were like, we can't do the cat earns on the bottom. Yeah, she looks like no, they did do the cat ear part because Cheetah versus the Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:02

It's giving Lonely Streamer Girl who only streams uh Pokemon.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Also, on the topic, DC Dose with the Horns, shout out to the comic Girls with Horns, the webcomic. I've read a couple of strips of that, and it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_06 36:17

I will be uh reading, oh, that's cool. I uh that one.

SPEAKER_05 36:23

I assume it's the the webtoon one.

SPEAKER_06 36:25

The one the girls with the horns. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:27

Yes. She didn't get her. It's a metaphor. The horns are.

SPEAKER_06 36:31

Wow. Locked in.

SPEAKER_04 36:35

Anyways, this is kind of the first book I've really ever sat down with. Both of these characters. They are both extremely fun. They are both extremely gay, except for maybe this one's bisexual. Um, because she keeps being or maybe she's just being tricked by a man constantly. I can't really tell what's going on. Um like every every five pages we're doing like a different artist, and we're kind of in a different scenario. Some sort of like trickster is like reality shifting them like throughout, so we get to see them in a bunch of different art styles. There's so much girls kissing other girls on the mouth. Um, which is like really, really nice. I've never seen a comic book that says the word sis. So that that kind of like threw me, because uh Galaxy was like, what am I doing here? And Nia's just like, you know, when you're at Demiscura, if you're uh killed by the hands of a man, you get sent to the mascura. It doesn't matter if you're trans or sis, sister. Um, and I was just like, wow, uh this this language is is truly uh in a DC book right now. Um so that was interesting. I know. We've really hit the mainstream. I know. And like when you see the word sis anywhere these days, it is because some cis woman is complaining that she's actually a real woman and doesn't deserve to be called sis. So, like, is this the real trans tipping point? Have we finally reached it? I think Yeah, actually. 2026, here we go. Um, quick, everybody trans your gender. Um galaxy's here to save you. Drink the gender fluid.

SPEAKER_06 38:09

Issue issue two has Dreamer throwing bricks at cops who come to bust up a pride parade. Who says, You're not breaking anything. As for me though, well, you know us transsexuals, when you fuck with us, we throw shit. And then throw shit with bricks at cops at times.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

That is not subtle, but it is very um. What's the word catharted?

SPEAKER_04 38:28

Yeah, it is all the cathartic. There's a lot of really good lines uh throughout here. Like, definitely gay people are writing this because it's two trans women. It's so caddy.

SPEAKER_06 38:38

At least one trans woman.

SPEAKER_04 38:40

It's so catty and gay, and it's it's a perfect little writer.

SPEAKER_06 38:44

Uh uh Judzia Axelrod, who I know is trans. Um, she wrote Hot Girl um and has written Galaxy pretty extensively.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

She's the creator of Galaxy.

SPEAKER_06 38:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's the creator of Galaxy. And then Nicole Maynes is some flavor of queer and or trans, I don't entirely know.

SPEAKER_04 39:00

But I'm not gonna transvestigate Nicole Maynes, but I love I love when they get uh surrounded by all these villains, and uh Dreamer says, I see the pride parade from hell has arrived. I want to know about all these villains. Obviously, I know Harley and Ivy, but there's some sort of like transgender scarecrow.

SPEAKER_06 39:19

Oh, I can I can explain that.

SPEAKER_05 39:20

So that's um Oh is that ladies Oh is that yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_06 39:23

No, no, no, that's that's the um in Secret Six. It didn't come from Secret Six, but was really popularized in Gail Simone's Secret Six is um like a they them like they're not not Nesting doll, what's their fucking name? It's something doll or like that. Yeah, it's Ragdoll. Ragdoll! Ragdoll Ragdoll. The they them ragdoll. They them ragdoll! Ragdoll came when the in the first Secret Six thing in like 2008 or whatever, they were like very obviously queer, but they didn't put like a name to it, and then Gail Simone came back some years later, did more Secret Six, and then just explicitly made them they them. Which was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 39:57

Um and then I think that's um and then there's some kind of sword lesbian here as well. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 40:02

That's um that's that's not that's that's sword is also a metaphor. Is that I think that's Vandal Savage's daughter. I think I think she's uh I think she's a dyke. Yeah, yeah, Vandal Savage's daughter is a lesbian.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Um, yeah. And I don't know who the this villain guy is who has like the keys for fingers and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 40:21

Oh, that's that's that look is that like doormaster or whatever?

SPEAKER_04 40:25

It might be doormaster. He's trying to get into um the library of trying to get into your AkaSheik. The Akashic Records.

SPEAKER_06 40:33

Oh, the Aka The Akashic Records is okay. It's it's um it's a thing in like 20th century mysticism where it's this idea that like there is like a record of like every event that could happen, has happened, or will ever happen. Oh yeah, the Akashic Records, of course. Duh. I I literally only know this because of fucking Vajra Chandra Sikra uh loved riffing on this, but it's a hell in a blood top blabost. I don't know. It's it's like a mystici 20th century mysticism thing. Don't worry, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

I looked down at a comic book for two minutes and we're talking about 20th century mysticism. I thought this was a comic book podcast.

SPEAKER_06 41:12

Gay people love 20th century mysticism.

SPEAKER_05 41:15

Grant Morrison, case in point. Um in terms of gay stuff, I think Ryan wins the gay Olympics for who read what today. Um because they read David Warren Radway. Yeah, I made I made Ryan read Seven Miles a Second, which we've talked about on this podcast before. Um Walter says it's pronounced Akashic records. Did I say it right?

SPEAKER_04 41:44

Can you come pronounce it into the microphone for us? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

You got a text telling you how to pronounce it. Yeah. Okay, tell me that this is not how you would read this. Akashic records? That's right.

unknown 41:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 41:57

Akashic records. Akashic records. Akashic, okay. Our fans were really gonna go crazy if we kept mispronouncing it. The subbrennett's got to be able to do it. Yeah, the subbrennett was gonna explode. Um Yeah, I had Ryan read seven hours a second. What did you think? Ryan. You're a Watch an Artovich fan, so. Yeah, I was pretty obsessed. I mean, I can't believe I hadn't read it yet. It like looks crazy. I'm really intrigued by the fact that like well, I mean, this is like the case for a lot of these comics, I guess, but the comics I normally read are like written and illustrated by the same person. But like he wrote it and someone else illustrated it and someone else colored it, which I was like, oh. I feel like you can tell because it's like Hello Surrealist. And so it like looks like it was put together from like a lot of different minds. Um I thought that was really cool. And there's a lot of like drain um sequences uh that it kind of just like that just kind of just blend into the narrative because it's like visually really um kind of like nebulous on the page. Like there's a lot of stuff happening, like a lot of movement, like it was really dynamic. I thought it was really cool.

SPEAKER_06 43:08

Hell yeah. No, that that book means like changed my life. Loki, I read it when I was, I think, eight, like an eight, you know, first came out as a trans woman in in like 2014. I just like happened to have a copy of that and it just like rewired my brain fundamentally. He um he was um he was still alive for most of the creation of this comic. Him and the artist James Romberger were friends, they were compiling it together, and then Waj Nerowitz died part way into making it, and then so Romberger just finished up from like the collaborative notes that they had made together.

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Yeah, you may recognize, I don't know if you recognize like the last few pages from Memories that Smells I was gonna say. Yeah. Um so I think uh the artists definitely pulled a lot from Memories that Smell like asking to finish it. But yeah, I don't know. Are they is it like is the language like Because I remember I was reading it and I was like, oh, it's so interesting that his that these books both kind of like devolve into this like one like outro monologue where he's kind of just like uh laying it all out and he's sort of just like screaming. I'm not sure what the I'm not sure what the the timeline is for it. Like I I did look at them side by side after I finished this because I just finished Memories That Smell Like Gasoline. Um there's like a lot of similarity. It's not exact though. Um so my guess would be that he was feeling a lot of the same shit when he was finishing this or making notes for how to finish it, and then they probably did pull a certain degree from Memories That Smell Like Gasoline.

SPEAKER_06 44:47

My understanding is a lot of the prose across the book is like excerted from different books of his or different projects. Is my is my understanding.

SPEAKER_05 44:54

It's pretty incredible because the whole like I feel like the whole premise of like the of that little monologue at the end is like to try to describe an indescribable feeling, and it's all about like the powerlessness of not being able to describe her or like to transmit it to anyone. And while I'm sure that is still true, I think it's astounding how good of a job he does of transmitting it in that in that monologue.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:21

Yeah. And it really cannot be said how much like James Romberger's like line and Marguerite Van Cook's like like very searing like aesthetic like colors like do with this text. Yeah, the coloring is insane.

SPEAKER_05 45:35

It's gorgeous.

SPEAKER_06 45:36

Like genuinely, I would like genuinely argue that this is some of the best colouring that's ever been in a comic. But like I I think the work that Koch does here is just unbelievable.

SPEAKER_05 45:47

Yeah, I wish I wish they did more stuff. Yeah. They don't have a ton of work under their belt. I wonder if they went on to do different forms of visual art outside of comics. Because this really does, like, it reads, I mean it is a comic for sure, but it reads as something like so entirely separate from almost any other comic that I've read, you know? Like it it feels really like untethered from the conventions of the comic book in a way that I think is really cool. I was so happy to give that to you. Yeah. Yeah. We've been talking about it for a while, but hella glad you have read it. No one knows it exists really. I bring it up to people who like are really well read in queer literature and like have read other stuff by him, and no one knows it's out there. I mean, I think part of it is like bookstores can't order it to sell. No. Like we're the only bookstore I know of that gets them to sell retail. Um why is that I can I can explain that.

SPEAKER_06 46:50

Yeah, it it was initially it was initially published by Vertigo and I want to say '94, I think, is when it actually got 93, 94 is when it actually got published. It was even for Vertigo, even for that era of Vertigo, like a pretty out there for even what they were doing, like. Uh yeah. And then so it was like not even a huge run into itself, and then it went out of print for like I like I don't even remember if it was in print when I read it. Like, I either like got it from like a uh what's that used bookstore in Portland, whatever. Um Powells. Powells, Powells. I forgot Powell's the word for Powells. I either got it at Powell's or maybe I got like the last of the print run, but it was out of print for like over a decade, and then this very, very small publisher at Ground Zero Books ended up getting the rights. I don't entirely know that story, but they um they picked it up, and now yeah, you have to order directly from Ground Zero. They're not a major publisher, they don't go through any of the major publishing channels, they're very small, you just have to go directly through them.

SPEAKER_05 47:53

Or you can come here. Terrible advertiser.

SPEAKER_06 47:59

Just go online and get it. Yeah. Amazon.com. Like don't you don't need to come here. We we got we got this in the store because I I I convinced Jack to end up getting it.

SPEAKER_05 48:08

Um we reached out personally to 2Ground Zero.

SPEAKER_06 48:13

Um they they made us a deal to to send us some books, like wholesale or something. But yeah, if you haven't read that book, please do. Like it is not if you're looking for a queer book that's like going to go down easy and is like not going to like be upsetting, this is not that one.

SPEAKER_05 48:33

Um But if you're looking for like a wonderful antidote to the like target float of the pride parade or whatever the hell, like this is definitely Yeah. Uh this is definitely it for you.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

Um It's not your mama's genderqueer.

SPEAKER_06 48:48

Yeah. It's not. I Look, okay. I'm gonna say this once I'm gonna say this only. Like, like, conservatives flip the entire fuck out when they see like genderqueer, and if they saw anything that was like scarier than a fifth grade level, they'd kill themselves. Like, if they if they read The Pervert, dead.

SPEAKER_05 49:09

Their eyes would mell.

SPEAKER_06 49:10

Yeah, dead on command. Like, the the the people that think the green Eminem isn't fuckable enough anymore are gonna be able to handle this. Like, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_05 49:19

Wait, did they desexualize her? Yeah, they made her like less hunty. I didn't know about that.

SPEAKER_06 49:26

We'll play the audio if you want. There's a really funny Tucker Carlson rant about it where she's like really mad about how the pink green Eminem's not fuckable anymore. Oh it's so funny. I had not heard the audio until relatively recently, and it was like, I cannot believe he like very publicly like it's it's not ambiguous whatsoever. He's very mad the green Eminem is not fuckable anymore. Okay. There we go. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Um the change is right now on your screen. The green Eminem, you'll notice, is no longer wearing sexy boots. Now she's wearing sensible sneakers. Why? The change? Well, according to MMs, quote, we all win when we see more women in leading roles. Because leading women do not wear sexy boots. Leading women wear frumpy shoes. The frumpier, the better. That's the rule. The other big change is that the brown MM has, quote, transitioned from high stilettos to lower block heels, also less sexy, less progress. Eminem's will not be satisfied until every last cartoon character is deeply unappealing and totally androgynous. Totally wouldn't want to have a drink with any one of them. That's the goal. When you're totally turned off, we've achieved equity. They've won.

SPEAKER_05 50:48

That's the goal. When you're totally turned off, they've won. Here first, folks. Our goal here is to totally turn you off. Not to be comic, but to make you soft.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

Um, moving on. Um his mental health just hinged on how sexy the green is.

SPEAKER_05 51:12

I know, he was like the only one. He had a breakdown. The the the fingernail-sized ledge that he was clinging to a reality from was the sexiness of the Green Eminem. Um, what else would I read? Um, Look Back. Right? Yeah. Look back. Oh, you read Look Back? I did.

SPEAKER_04 51:32

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 51:33

Um, it was a quick read, so I got like a little bit um confused by what I perceived to be time jumping, I th I believe. Yeah. Um. So I was kind of like, oh shit, um, a couple times while I was going, but really enjoyed it. It was very like uh minimalist.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

Like there's like hardly any words in it. It's it's interesting that it's the same person who made Chainsaw Man. Oh yeah, I was telling Ryan. Which has a maximalism to it.

SPEAKER_05 52:01

I was telling Ryan he has to read Chainsaw Man. Yeah, it sounds like it would be pretty different from this one.

SPEAKER_04 52:07

Chainsaw Man's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

Whatever you're expecting a book called Chainsaw Man to read like, it doesn't read like Chainsaw Man. But at the same time, it is about a guy who looks exactly like what we would expect Chainsaw Man to look like. Really? But it's like cerebral. Dude, it's like so weird and out there. Whoa, we don't have volume one, that's messed up.

SPEAKER_06 52:30

I can I can bring up sometime. Yeah, I have uh volume one.

SPEAKER_05 52:35

So insane. Um, yeah, what did you think of this? Had you read any manga before this? Um, I don't think I've read manga since I was a kid, to be honest. Um and so this was more mature, because I believe I was reading like, you know, manga for kids. Like intended for children. So like Naruto or something. Um Yeah. Like like of that, yeah, in that vein. Okay. Um yeah, I really enjoyed it. Um, you know, mature themes, um situation. Um I find certain character, like some characters in books just like really frustrating. Like uh, so uh I forget their name, but the shy one irritated me just because they were so shy. I'm kind of just like, well, yeah, I was also confused because I mean, is it the takeaway that this um girl is like taking advantage of the other? Like she puts her name on all of the manga and the other one is kind of just like happy to be her assistant and like not get any credit.

SPEAKER_04 53:42

Yeah, I that's definitely what's happening. Okay. I think uh it it's it's one of those situations where you're kind of like seeing a character manipulate or use another character, but by the end of it they actually become pretty good friends, and then you know. It's like when in the in the high school movies, when uh all the guys uh make a big bet, you wouldn't date the girl who wears glasses, but then he dates the girl who wears glasses on a bet, and then later on she's like, tell me I wasn't a bet!

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Tell me I wasn't a bet!

SPEAKER_05 54:16

And then they're they're in like the wrong. No, babe, like you were, but then you took off your glasses. I aren't a bony. A bony.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

A bony.

SPEAKER_04 54:31

A bony. A bonie. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:33

I think that's a good metaphor for that.

SPEAKER_06 54:36

Um Fuji Moto would approve. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:38

Oh my god, wait, I have to show you the Fujimoto 455. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_04 54:48

Uh oh yeah, this you gotta go watch girls play. This is uh billiard balls.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

I do have to go watch girls play billiards, but also.

SPEAKER_05 55:00

This is Tatsuki Fujimoto people trying to fly.

SPEAKER_04 55:18

Oh shit. So he's like multi-talented. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:21

Do we have time to talk about your book or do we want to just move it to next week? What do you think? I would like to I felt my my phone is in the middle of these books.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

There it is.

SPEAKER_03 55:30

Anyway, um Yeah, I would like to talk about um Saul Williams, Martyr Loser King. Yeah, talk to us about this, yeah. Um, so I haven't finished reading it. I'm like two-thirds of the way through. But it's really good, and also I kinda already know how it ends because there's a movie and I've seen the movie a couple of times.

SPEAKER_06 55:49

Can you can you introduce to the podcast who Saul Williams is?

SPEAKER_03 55:52

Ooh, I would love that. So Saul Williams is many things. Um sorry. Um, he's many things. He is first and foremost a poet, but also a singer, songwriter, rapper, producer, actor, director, screenwriter, and now um comic book script writer. So awesome.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:14

A man of many hats, many talents. Um, but most most importantly a poet. And the poetry runs through like all of his other work. Um But Martyr Loser King is a multimedia um project that started as a concept album. Or I don't I don't know if that's how it started, but that was the first like uh commercial release of the series at the very least. But the um the album was also called Martyr Loser King. And it was like Saul Williams' like fifth or sixth album or something like that. Um and it's a very interesting album. Um it's a concept album, and it kind of like is talking about like this Afrofuturist sort of like trans allegory narrative, you know, around the mining of precious minerals and the ways that interacts with like the shaping of the present and future in various ways. And um, yeah, um, it's hard for me to to explain it because it's very well it's poetry, you know, it's not it's not that literal, you know, like but nevertheless, this book that I'm reading, I guess I guess I will jump to the book because I don't want to spend time describing every other part of the project. It's just to say that they are really, really good, and you should go watch Neptune Frost and listen to Margaroser King, and um also um the other albums that are there was like a remix album, and then there was the soundtrack to the movie, which is the same songs as the original album but translated into different languages. Um, and yeah, so I'm midway through the graphic novel, and it's really incredible because like it's it's kind of something I've never really seen before in this medium. There was a conversation uh Persephone and I had before about like the ways in which people try to make comic books out of poetry, and that tends to be like a little awkward. And Saul Williams is basically like the antithesis to the conclusion of that conversation we had. Absolutely. Because like this whole book is poetry, is songs, is lyrics, is you know, ideas that are not so not so tied down, not so constrained, but like open to interpretation, but also very clearly talking about specific things.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:50

You know, and the visuals of this book kind of follow that as well. Like there's a way this particular art style is very much we were talking earlier about the binary between um evocative and literal in art. Like that this exists in every medium of art, but comic books is especially interesting. You know, I feel like a lot of the books that I've been enjoying lately, or books that I want to read or haven't read yet, kind of have this in common, where the imagery of the book is less about illustrating the action and more about like evoking certain feelings or certain ideas in the reader, you know?

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

And yeah, this book is very that.

SPEAKER_05 59:38

You know what I mean? You should read seven miles a second, because I feel like that's like uh that's ground that this treads really well too, is like it's often like not as concerned, yeah, with like showing you visually what's going on and more concerned with like invading your brain.

SPEAKER_03 59:59

Yes. Exactly. But like, I don't know, like I don't know, the and I can only really speak on this work in the context of already being like very familiar with the material, like in the forms of the other media um expressions of it. You know, but I'm reading this and I'm seeing scenes from the movie like redepicted and the ways that the comic medium changes these scenes and changes the way that that you perceive them, like the difference in power, not a difference in power levels, but a difference in types of power between a still image and a moving image. You know, and so much of Saul Williams' work is about playing with mediums, you know, even before the Mar Loser King project, a lot of his music was this idea of taking poetry, like spoken word or like beat style poetry and translating it into like hip hop or rock and roll or you know, whatever the case may be. You know, and this is just kind of that same sort of practice in another form.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

You know, but it's it's very interesting, it's very, you know, Afrofuturistic and like I don't know, most more on the nose afrofuturistic than a lot of things are, like, not just aesthetically, but in the ideas that it's talking about and the ways that you know technology and advancement and modernity interact with people's humanity, you know. Like there's this, there's this I don't know, there's there's so many different things. Like one of the key elements of the book is um one of the main characters is a miner in a cult of mine in Burundi. And you know, the connection between these human beings working the mines, you know, and I I say human beings to emphasize that because like in the machinery of capitalism and the modern world, they are not. They are less than cogs, even just materials to be ground down in the machine, you know. I don't this this metaphor isn't made explicit in the book, but like the miners are the mineral, you know, a resource to be ground down to make the modern world work.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:19

You know?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:20

That's like the the first scene of the movie, right? Is like someone and like one of the miners in the Coltan man dies. And they're like, please somebody like get them out, and the the the the the heads of the miner, like, fuck you, like die in the hole, like I don't care.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

Exactly.

unknown 1:02:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:33

But what but Coltan is, is um a precious mineral that is inside of all of our cell phones, computers, and like modern devices.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:42

And we just like we use these devices every day, and we don't think about the human cost of it. You know, like it's very easy to say, like, you know, we are all complicit in the workings of capitalism or whatever the fuck, but just to understand that no, there are human lives, you know, lived and lost in the in the pursuit of me being able to fucking, you know, look up information on my fucking video screen. Whatever.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:15

This was this was Walter's PhD dissertation. It was about this. He just texted it to us, but um what's it called? It's called Oh Awful Power, Energy and Modernity in African American Literature, but it's on like the intersection of race and uh like natural energy and power and resources. I'm like I'm obviously like butchering it, but he's uh unwilling to speak on the podcast. Um But I've talked to him about it, it sounds really interesting. Um he was kind enough to give me the book format. Uh-huh. Um also send that to me at some point. He sent it to the group chat. Oh, oh wait, that was to the group chat. Um but the first chapter is about uh the intersection of race and coal mining in America.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:08

Wanted to jump in because he texted us uh and we we never get attachments from him. So that's sick. No, yeah. Thank you for your contribution, Walter. I I say into the mind. Yeah, not in the room. The presence of Walter. The ghost of Walter, right? Somewhere else about Tudor and the Ghost of Walter.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:27

Yeah. But um, yeah, no, this this book is really good. And also there's a trans woman character at the center of the narrative, and but is not depicted in any sort of way that you see trans woman depicted in media, you know, because it's totally like I don't know, how do I say it? Like the whole book is poetry. Her character is a metaphor. Everybody's character is a metaphor, you know? They have names like um memory and technology and ultramagnetic, you know, like all of these characters are oh actually, I was just talking, sorry, this is a little off topic. No, no, please. I was talking to somebody recently about the movie Is God Is. And they discussed it in these terms as well. Like every character in this movie is actually a metaphor for the, you know, some aspect of the topic being discussed. And this is sort of that as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:30

But at the same time being fleshed out as characters, you know, and having sort of like some um groundedness to them. Like they they also they feel like real people even as they are poetry and metaphor at the same time. You know, but um, yeah, I don't know. It's it's very it's very interesting. There's a lot of there are I could like quote lines from throughout the book that sound really kind of nonsense out of context. Context, but in the context of the whole are very meaningful. You know, um, hack into the mainframe, dismantle definition, dogma and duty, cardio congo, blood rich in oil, hack into dreams, subtext, and subconscious, hack into heart, you know, and that's part of this whole long kind of detour the book takes, yeah, which is just talking, you know, a poem that uses the word hack as like this repetitive, like sort of um motif, yeah, you know, but using it as again metaphor, both metaphor and literal, like, you know. And and that is a it's just a poem, you know. It's a poem that was made into a song that I I'm trying to remember the name of the fucking song it was on. Hold up, I'm gonna look real quick. But um, yeah, it's just like I don't know. It it fits in this medium in a way that I didn't think was possible. You know what I mean? Like I don't know. Like, I think the the poet come narrative writer is an interesting figure in literature, and Saul Williams has become that over time, and it's fascinating to see. You know? I don't I think more people should be listening to Saul Williams than do. I think he's one of the most important voices of our time, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:27

Uh Walter has recommended Last Angel of History, uh, which he describes as a GOAT. Funky astro futurist docush freak out, early John and Momfra as a movie rack? Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_06 1:07:45

Oh, yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:46

Is he not in the store?

SPEAKER_06 1:07:47

It's I found it on Letterboxd.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:50

Um an examination of heretofore unexplored relationships between Pan-African culture, science fiction, intergalactic travel, and rapidly progressing computer technology. Yeah, this feels exactly a sound. Yeah, Soul Williams is incredible. I've only seen Neptune Frost years ago when it came out, but Jesus, it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:11

No, he's been good forever. I first saw him in the movie Slam that came out like in the late 90s or something. Yeah, well, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:20

What is that one?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:20

It was like a really big, like, indie film of the time, like it won like Sundance Awards and whatnot, but um, yeah, and that was the story of this man that goes to jail and starts doing poetry in jail. And like all these projects, it is a good movie in its own right, and yet it is also very nakedly a vehicle for Saul Williams' poetry. Because the poetry is just at the heart of all that he does. Yeah. But it's like poetry is more than just a medium, though, it's it's an approach to understanding the world.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

You know what I mean? And I I don't know. Were we recording when we were talking about this earlier? Yeah. About uh how like so many of the great, like, you know, storytellers in all mediums employ poetry as a part of their yeah, I think we might have been in the car when we were getting food. Um but like so many of our great like autors in various like genres and and mediums, so much of their of what makes their work good is the poetry, you know, the poetry of the prose, the poetry of the lyrics, the poetry of the shot selection, of the editing, of you know, all these different things and all these different mediums, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:41

And it's like, but when you keep that central, it's a different type of storytelling that that takes place. You know what I mean? And it's very valuable, and it's like, you know, we read a lot of comic books around these parts, and they're many of them are quite good for various reasons. But like, there's something so different and so visceral as about like comics that are built on poetry as opposed to narrative as the primary engine. You know.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:11

This is this is a thing that I feel like I mean, it still happens in the indie spaces. I mean, how like um we've talked about on the show, um uh Mary Payne, um, that came out by Lorena, I'm forgetting her last name, she's a Spanish author. Um, that is that is very much like that, but it's I feel like we get less comics that are l l in that mode, in that like poetic, poetic first mode. Um we do get that still to some degree. And even within like Absolute Martian Manhunter utilizes that, particularly the deeper it goes in, like, there's stuff that is like absolutely poetic first. Um, but I feel like we get less of that kind of like stuff that like Saul Williams is doing, the stuff that Lorraine is doing, the stuff that like David Brzeznerowitz and James Romberg and Marguerite Van Cook are doing, we get kind of less of that than I feel like we used to. Just because I think there's just like there's more eyes on comics, there's more money in comics. And so because of that, like there tends to be preferences for maybe more outwardly accessible.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:17

I mean, it's ultimately conservatism, you know what I mean? Like doing what is historically successful or what is most likely to sell, and it's just like appealing to what is or what was or what's most popular as opposed to like what could be.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:34

I think another good example of this is like uh Michael DeForge's Leaving Richards Valley. Yeah. Throughout the story, and that's like a huge tone. I mean, it's like a really thick book. Um and it like ties it into this like really deep tapestry of uh characterization and thematic uh development throughout the book in a way that yeah, like very few people are doing, just I think partially because people are scared of doing anything that would sort of alienate a reader, and like reading Richards Valley, like I did have like a moment of of kind of like shock, honestly, at seeing sort of a poetic device like that and being like, whoa, this is just like in the book, like you can you can just do it, and I'd kind of forgotten that was like a comics possibility at all.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:34

Um and I do think there is kind of and to compliment what you're saying is like there's kind of a liter literacy crisis right now, I feel like, or at least like a a disengagement with themes. Like people, like Corinne and I were just talking about this, people were like incensed that they just found out that like Scott Snyder of Absolute Batman is a liberal, and people got so and like conservative people got like so mad and they're like, I can't believe Absolute Batman is woke. And it's like guys, I don't know how to fucking tell you this.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:07

Absolute Batman was the one where he like beheads a fucking a white power guy. Yeah, yeah. Oh, this is like this is the fucking Rage Against the Machine is political! Yeah, that sort of energy.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:21

Which like which which bringing it back to Rage Against the Machine goes to show, like it's not like new. This is not like a like an exclusive phenomenon of like our contemporary moment. But there is like an increasing refusal across broader audiences to like engage with text even when it's super explicit. I think.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:39

It all started with like American Psycho and Fight Club. And all the men who were like, this is instructional. Uh this is a how-to book.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:48

Um to repeat a joke I made a few days ago. I I recently said that uh mean girls is mad but for gay people. Everybody wants to be Regina George.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:05

That's really funny. But yeah, um, this is this is our call for more poetry in comics, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:14

Like shit, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:15

And if you want to write on it, uh more poetry in comics and more black creators writing comics. This is both this is proof of all your book.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:26

Like, again, recommending Zatana, like, this is in a lot of ways a plot forward book, but there's just like he doesn't, he doesn't like Jamal Cable doesn't point and go like this is about like intergenerational storytelling through song. He just does it. Yeah, and I know that like 90% of the reviews online are just not gonna talk about that. Um to even to a lesser degree, um, Paul Chadwick's concrete. I'm just not gonna talk a ton about this. This is the first concrete in like 20 years. It's just like, what if a guy became the thing and then he decided to get really into environmentalism? And you just read this and it like it's got a slower, more casual pace than almost anything I've read in a long time that like comes out at a floppy.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:06

It's just nice to have like a slow, methodical, almost poetic pace to just like even the way that like we pull back from in and out of uh like a state park. Um, or just even like the way that the water is illustrated, like kind of washing away this like footprint, um, the incredible, like yeah, there's like incredible like poetry to the landscape and like texture to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:31

Also is giving like Kirby and like you know, early 20th century pulp.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:37

Exactly. Also, obviously a very white dude, but uh like Alan Moore has a lot of poetry in Swamp Thing, and then later in Lost Girls, if you haven't read Lost Girls, I'm like I'm in the middle of it, but like that is a book with just like way more poetry to it than plot. I mean, there's a whole lot of horniness in that book. Yeah. Um I mean poetry and horniness have been. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:01

Like we always go on together.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:03

Yeah, we go hand in hand, hand in cock, I mean hand in hand. Um hand and fist. Uh fist and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:09

We're we're lamenting a car door.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:11

I'm I'm still early in this and I won't talk about it, but Tate has talked about it on the podcast before. Charity and Sylvia by Tilly Walden just came out, and similarly There's a lot of poetry in that book.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:20

A lot of poetry in that. Um, and I mean I think Tilly Walden's a good example of um just a lot of visual poetry in almost all the things that she creates. Um, she's really willing to just be like, we're gonna have like five pages of just like quiet. Yeah, like I don't I don't think that like necessarily textually she brings poetry to the fore, but I think she she takes the kind of conventions of poetry and brings it to a visual field in a way that I think a lot of comic book artists could really learn from. Yeah. Um but what's impressive here is that it's a two-person team too. Like it's it's really hard, I think, to have like a an actually poetic comic.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:00

Yeah, the art in this comic is by Morgan Soren. And I think I don't know much about Morgan Soren, but I think in this book he does a really good good job of like conveying some of the ideas and the feelings of the text, you know, through the art. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:18

Sorry, he's uh he's a musician himself. Oh, is he? Yeah, he's um at least the Wikip Wikipedia says uh solo music project is an American singer, songwriter, composer, multimedia artist, music producer, and actor. I see. It really goes to like kind of to what you were saying of just like he's also a musician. He's like also like They said multi-hyphen it bad bitches only.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:41

Yeah, everyone else can go home.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:46

Um should we do like a speedrun of new issues and then call it? This has been a long episode. This has, yeah. Um I can start. Uh I caught up on Daredevil. Uh I don't have a ton to say about it, but it's like it's it's good. Um It seems like Stephanie Phillips kind of just like gets Daredevil. Um and like yeah, I I don't know, it makes me happy to see some uh respect put on Daredevil's name, but also some respect put on Spider-Man's name. Um Spider-Man's getting been getting just like totally shafted in recent comics. Yeah, there's like good Spider-Man material in here. There's like a couple issues of sort of Spider-Man and Daredevil uh doing stuff together in a way that that warmed my heart. Um I'm gonna save Deadman because I think Persephone's gonna want to talk about it. Um Absolute Green Arrow, issue two, very good. Um it kind of continues to push this like interesting dichotomy of or like kind of cognitive dissonance of like what it means to um. I think it I I think what's really interesting about Absolute Green Arrow is like the its willingness to kind of point out the hypocrisy in really enjoying like a super anti-fascist, anti-billionaire book while also like buying it from a publisher that is like worth billions of dollars in and of themselves and is like not leftist or progressive by any means. Um and like what it means to be kind of complicit in that while also sort of agreeing with the thematics present in the book, the art hidden used to be really good.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:34

Um it's willingness to complicate um Oliver Queen as well. Like his whole like the thing that many men do of like, oh my my boy wouldn't do that.

unknown 1:19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:43

I gotta like just talk to him, and like the willingness to like we've talked about it before, but the willingness to complicate him and not.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:50

Yeah, I thought that was really good. I enjoyed issue two of In Your Skin. This is something that I'm gonna make Ryan go home with. Um because I think it's just it's really good. Um I thought this like this actually nailed the body horror stuff better than issue one, just because I think issue one, by nature of the concept of it, it was really hard to kind of get your bearings enough to actually be horrified by what was going on because you like don't know what's happening. And in order to kind of like be horrified, you have to have like some grip on the reality of a text. Um, but this does a really good job of uh really solidifying all of that. Uh the art is gorgeous, the story's really good. Um definitely an issue that I finished and was like mad that I had finished it because I wanted more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:40

Uh can I interject quickly on in your skin? I want to talk maybe more about it when issue three comes out next week, um, which God bless. But reading that and then Nice House by the C number 10 this week really put into contrast how few scary comics we actually have. We have so many like horror-themed con comics in the sense of like comics that feel like going to the Haunted Mansion Disneyland ride. It's like a lot of like yelling boo and shaking your hands, but it doesn't really mean anything. But just even having like an ounce of like cultural specificity or like intention with the way that like there are just faces in in Nice House by the Sea which are scary, like genuinely scary images, because they just put like tremendous effort into like composition of those. There's a video glitch that's scary. Similarly, in your skin, like there's a ton of effort put into like her characterization, the way that like the skin I won't say what happens, but like some bad skin stuff happens, and uh yeah, and I I think it it delves really deeply into some more character interiority in this issue, which I think is really good.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:47

Um yeah, wonderful work. The other the other one that I think is also still scary is and it's another Tinian joint, but I think something is killing the children is still pretty scary.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:58

Um in like a very different way, because it's a monster book. But I think that deserves the horror moniker.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:04

I mean Department of Truth is also pretty unsettling. Tinian just has some crazy stuff going on in his brain. Yeah. Tinian's like almost single-handedly holding up comics horror in the monthly space right now. Um Odin, another Tinian joint with uh what's Bennett's first name?

SPEAKER_06 1:22:22

I think it's Marguerite, I think.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:24

Um yeah, Marguerite Bennett. Yeah. Uh Odin, issue one, hit the shelves, I think last week. Uh, written by Marguerite Bennett and James Tinian, art by Leticia Cadonici, colors by uh Front of the Pod, Jordi Bel Air, and lettered by Tom Napolitano. Uh this is another tiny onion joint from Image Comics. Um I I was very intrigued by this. It's got like I mean, there's a lot going on in this book. Uh the basic premise, uh, without spoiling anything, is essentially uh a a newspaper journalist and columnist, um like an investigative journalist decides to go kind of like gonzo undercover um and like infiltrate an alt-right, like Nazi uh society of Odinists, which is like the branch of uh stupid, illiterate, uh and sort of historically ignorant um Nazis that think that they have some like a connection to Norse mythology, um, because almost all Nazis are really so stupid, um uh and like don't understand history or anything. So she decides to infiltrate this group to write about them, and the group is like planning on like summoning Odin in this sort of mysterious area of uh Norway, and they're like all convinced they're like true Norse Viking blood, whatever the heck. Um and so she gets embroiled in this kind of uh society um and in this ritual and then some like really crazy, inexplicable stuff happens. It feels very much like uh it feels very much like the secret history where they kind of start doing this like insane, ancient rite, and then uh a death occurs, and um we don't really know much of what happens after that yet, but this was another one where I was like, Oh, is it? Well, you didn't give it to me, it's not in my box, so sorry, Diva! That's your job! Um But it's I thought this was quite good. Um I I mean I think they could still ruin it. It's like it's a very difficult thing to write about perfectly, um, and like they inject a lot of sort of complexities into it.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:06

Um I will say issue two actually deepens those complex. I was a little worried about the same thing. Issue two, without getting into specifics, deepens those complexities pretty well. Like, I I think I maybe have some quibbles about certain parts, but shockingly more focused, because it's like it's very easy and often enough just to be like, let's have some Nazis die horribly. That is enough. Like, it doesn't have to be more than that. But I do think the book is like smart enough to like reckon with varying social forces and why people get embroiled in these organizations. Yeah. Um without remotely letting them off the hook.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:41

Yeah, I think it also uh again, I own Red Issue 2, because it didn't come into my box today. Um this cover too. I don't want to hear it! Persephone.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:50

I was showing Acacia.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:52

Uh nice cover. Don't humor her. Um I think it does a really interesting job too of kind of engaging with like American Nazism as something sort of not unique but incredibly distinct from European Nazism, and like what the sort of social social and cultural roots of American Nazism are, and sort of like the insane dissonances and contradictions of even just like the phrase American Nazism.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:27

Um so yeah, I I think this is interesting. Um also kind of a pretty good horror book.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:34

Some like pretty scary stuff happens in this. Yeah. In ways that are very different and also very similar to In Your Skin and uh Night's House by the Lake, but also very different. There's like a lot of kind of thriller-ish aspects to this.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:48

Moments like uh that kind of like give you a sense of dread in the pit of your stomach, you know. Um I mean, there's an inherent tension to like just not wanting the main character to be found out, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:02

Think um, think very like in an elevator pitch kind of way, like Green Room meets the revenant.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:08

Yeah, with like some black clansmen. With some black clansmen burner, yeah. Um Spooky is all get out. Um I would recommend the art's pretty good.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:19

Um she's worked with Tinian on um some of the um the spin-off books. The like I forget what they're called. I don't like them as much. Oh, like the House of Slaughters. Yeah. Um she's worked on some of the House of Slaughters.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:32

Yeah, those are those are tape Braunball joints. One of my one of the fellow Tates of the world. Um Alright, the last thing that I have to talk about, um, because I I haven't gotten around to Zatana issues one or two, and I haven't read Nice House by the Sea yet, 'cause I just got back um is Deadman. Issue one from uh the Smash hit team behind Superman Kryptonite Spectrum, as well as Ice Cream Man. Um what's his name? Prince, Martin Morazzo, and what's his name? Ohoran. This is really good. I'm also gonna make Ryan take home issue one of Deadman.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:07

Um my god, they they sent us a big poster of Deadman and we instantly put it up in our window, and now I look at Deadman's scary uh face every time I walk into the store.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:21

But Deadman's nice. Uh he's a nice dead guy.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:24

He's a silly goofy guy. His background seems a little complicated to me. It is. What the hell's going on there? Um Like he's conscripted by a Is it like an Indian god?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:36

So okay, so so the the way that this is I actually think the way that it's described is actually kind of perfect in this comic. So his background is essentially he's he was a circus performer a la Dick Grayson. Um and then he was like murdered. Um and I love the way that they describe it, because I think it's it accurately uh describes the weirdness of DC comics when this character was created, but he died and his soul transition was paused by what Prince calls a Hindu-adjacent aspect of God named Ramakushna. So, um, in the kind of uh age-old tradition of DC and Marvel comics, they were just like, Ramakush, that sounds kinda Indian. Oh.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:23

Denny O'Neill and the Denny O'Neill alone in the 70s was like the dream of the audience!

SPEAKER_05 1:29:30

Um, so he yeah, so basically uh one of the things I like about this book is that Prince seems to be down to kind of like carry on with like all of the names and stuff while also acknowledging the kind of like ridiculousness of the entire concept. Um but basically, yeah, he's like conscripted by like a god of like the DC Universe version of Samsara uh to like be like the the the kind of like spirit guide for all of like the dead souls that need help getting to heaven or hell. Um so yeah, it's interesting. Um I'm really enjoying it. There's some like pretty spooky stuff that happens in here. A twink dies. Twink stuff. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:27

It's it's like there's some spooky stuff, but it also feels like appropriately, as you said it kind of earlier, like a little bit silly. Like it feels like some kind of like classic, like even pre-vertigo kind of DC horror in the best way. While also still feeling very like thoroughly modern.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:43

Yeah, it's quite good.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:44

I I loved it. I I think that in Zatana Center so far the best. Yeah. Um yeah, that's about I didn't have necessarily a ton more to say on Deadman other than I loved it. S for the same reasons you said. It's a great time. It's a really great time. Um, should I run through we could you covered some of the ones I was gonna say too.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:03

Yeah, why don't you speedrun the ones I haven't done?

SPEAKER_06 1:31:05

I'm gonna speedrun some. I think the only one I want to talk about maybe a little bit longer is Ultimates 24. So I'll speedrun a bunch of things. Um, since the kids are out of the store now, this came out a month ago. Absolute Wonder Woman ended its arc. There was no scissoring, not even a kiss. So I'm gonna have my personal January 6th and storm the DC offices. Oh my god. They didn't even kiss, they like shuffled her off the board to be dealt with later. I couldn't tell if that was editorial or whatever. Um, but it was it was still good. I'm just mad they won't lean in. Um Absolute Catwoman, it's fine. Bengal's art's really pretty. Unlike, you know, like it exists less because it has an essential story to tell, like Absolute Green Arrow does, but because Absolute Batman makes money, it's fine. I don't hate it. I'll probably read the next issue because I work here, but that's probably the only reason I'm gonna read it.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:57

There's one variance cover of it that I thought was really hard, and it's like my phone lock screen now. Is it the Carrie Andrews one?

SPEAKER_06 1:32:05

Where she's like the the I I please, I hope this is the one that I think it is. Oh, that one's good too. That one's good too. Which one were you talking about? I will I will find I will find it as I talk, but um nobody nobody wanted this one. Um, and I'm and except for me. I was the only person to pick this cover up, and I was like, like so many cover guys like wanted different covers, but they didn't pick this one up, and I'm like, what the fuck is the matter with you? Um like there's like real sensuality to this one of the way she's just like the the like finger of her nail and the lip. Like that's good. That's good, that's good stuff, and none of our none of our cover guys wanted it. None of them!

SPEAKER_03 1:32:46

I just hate her stupid helmet. That's that's my only real hot take.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:49

Yeah, it's the book just doesn't do it. Like, it reads like every Catwoman book you've read in the last like 30 years. Like it doesn't have anything. Who wrote it? Uh Che Grayson, which is a bummer. I wish I liked Che Gra Grayson's work more.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:04

Umestly, like, black creators shouldn't be ghetto eyes to black characters, but black women characters should be written by black women. Yeah. There's a specificity to the experience that other writers can just very harshly miss. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:19

And I and I do hope that, like, because Che Grayson is um black and non-binary.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:24

I I wish that like I felt more of a I I made I made several assumptions based on their name, my bad.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:30

Oh no, no, no, no, I wasn't trying to like that wasn't like a call out.

unknown 1:33:39

It's over.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:41

You made an ass out of you and this podcast. No, I don't worry about it. I like I only know because I just like have I just I just know Chick Grayson, but like I wish because like Absolute Catwoman is like Afro-Latina, like she's like specifically Afro-Cuban, and that just like has almost no effect on the book.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:01

That's kind of what I was getting at. Like your description of it, I'm just like, it shouldn't read like every other Catwoman book because a black woman in the position of being Catwoman would have a different experience.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:11

And it just like doesn't like it, yeah, it just reads like, oh man, that's crazy. I'm doing Catwoman shit again, like Holly's in trouble. It's like, okay, who fucking cares? Um that's all I have to say about that one. Um Absolute Batman, really quickly. It's still good overall, but the strain of doing entirely too many things is is showing, like, this can't be the arc where we do Scarecrow, and we do the Mac Robins, and we do First Meeting with Joker, and we do Deathstroke, and we do Clayface, and we do like 20 other things, and they announced a bunch of others I won't say. Like, like, we just need to like pick like like three of those things, maybe five. Wheel it back. Like, we should not be doing the next issue is like a like they're switching the artists and doing like a Harley Quinn origin issue, but instead of between arcs, it's like the penultimate issue before the end of the arc. So it's a good book, but the pacing sucks. And it's just like just pick one thing, Scott. Just like pick a fucking lane. Um jumping over to Batwoman. Rucca's having a great time playing with his favorite lesbians. Um Batman plays with like his like like he's like Robert Kirkman with like his like Transformers. He's just like bashing his G.I. Joe's and Transformers together. Uh Greg Rucca's like that with the lesbians he created in the early 2000s. He's like, he's got the his question, and and Batwoman are like, he's kind of just like pushing them together. Now kiss. Like it's it's really funny that he made some lesbians up to ship. Um that said, as much as I really like this book, it is not a good next level title because it is becoming increasingly clear that this is Greg Rucca doing this like larger meta story that he's been doing for like they were talking about like the Books of Blood, and I was like, wait a sec in the newest edition, I was like, wait a second, isn't that the name of one of his like question mini-series from like 2006? Like, what are we like we can't be this deep.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:04

Like, I do play the long game for Stephanie. I do playing 40 chess.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:09

I've heard comic creators describe like writing uh superhero titles as like playing with the toys and then putting them back in the toy box. It's like he came back and was like, that's my toy, that's my toy, that's my toy. I'm taking them.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:21

He loves this. They're all lesbians. They're all lesbians. He loves his lesbians. And like, look, as much as I find it a little frustrating, I'm also deeply charmed by it in a way, and a and a medium in which like you'll see review sites being like, issue 52 docking some points because that wasn't a perfect jumping on point. It's like chapter 50 of like an ongoing story. Why did you think that was gonna be a perfect jumping on point for new readers? Like, things should be accessible up to a point, but I do appreciate some guy going the complete opposite direction and going like, I'm just doing my thing over here. Like, if you don't get it, like fuck you. If you know, you know. If you know, you know. Um I think. And then yeah, Bleeding Hearts came out last week. Just like karaoke. Soon as soon as Absolute Martian's done. Uh Bleeding Hearts would be the best book on the shelf after after Martian's done. Um, I'm gonna be really sad when Martian goes, but we'll have Bleeding Hearts continues to be great. The one book I want to kind of talk about in any kind of depth, um, because we already talked about Zatana, we talked about pretty much all these. The Ultimate's 24. So Ultimates 24 is the end of the Ultimates thing. It's not the end of the Ultimate Universe, blah blah blah, but it is the end of this like version of the Avengers. And the kind of last issue mainly focuses on um Ultimate She-Hulk, who, for those who don't remember, like, is a Pacific Islander woman who um her entire nation was like irradiated, her island was irradiated by Bruce Banner dropping nukes in the in the sea, um, mirroring, you know, very real-world US atrocities, um, in the 50s and up to this day. Um, and the final issue kind of focuses on like her casting um casting the Hulk out of heaven, which he has colonized. He's like colonized heaven. But she like kicks him down to the the um to the island and then just beats the fucking shit out of him. It's like the final issue is just like her obliterating him. That's wonderful. Good for her. Awesome. And that's and that's kind of the the thing I want to talk about with the ultimates, is that like 23 and 24 are excellent issues. And honestly, a bunch of the issues in that ultimates run um have also been excellent. Some have been maybe more middling than others. Um, but as kind of the ultimate line kind of winds down and I grow like next week there's gonna be like ultimate end game number five and the ultimate universe finale, and I'm like so asleep trying to imagine reading them, even though my guy Dennis Camp is writing it, because there's just like there's something like soul-sucking about the end of the universe at this point, something like so slapdash and inessential.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:07

No, it's hard like concluding these things. Like when you try to have these big storytelling arcs, the successes are rare. Like sticking the landing is the hardest thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:16

Yeah, and the landing is just not there for the universe. But that said, like, the ultimates really does, I want to say, land, and it ultimately does summarize what the series has mostly been about, which is kind of like attempting to do kind of like as much as anything can be like a quote unquote like anarchist set like Guerilla Warfare, like anti-colonial Avengers, as much as that's like a real thing, quote-unquote, massive quotations. Um like this book is attempting to do that, and like largely succeeds in in sticking its own landing. But reading this series, which has mostly been a series of like one-shots, kind of like expanding on either characters we know or like making these very different riffs. Um we um You can you can feel the like kind of missed opportunities of the line and what like did not get expanded. Like we got an ultimate Wolverine 16 issue and who cares, but like but like Luke Cage and the Incarcerated Avengers is really cool. That is an objectively awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:21

I know Luke Cage like sitting in jail reading Franz Fanon is insane.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:25

Yeah, him like doing like being assault for like um assault being the the uh term for like joining a job to start a union for the express purpose of starting a union at that job. He's like that for prison abolition. He's like keeps getting into prison so that he can like radicalize people in jail and then overthrow the prisons. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:46

And that's such like a common riff that that is done in comics, or not necessarily in comics, but in like I don't know, I will say like Cape or like action media is the character who's like, oh yeah, I get arrested on purpose so I can like fuck shit up or whatever, but to do that explicitly in like a revolutionary context. Yeah, like in an abolitionary context. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:09

And creating like an event a series of Avengers like teams that are exclusively like incarcerated people, like, um, is awesome. Similarly, like the the riff on She-Hulk here, where like she's yeah, like I've already talked about her, um, like the Guardians of the Galaxy by way of like Grant Morrison thing from the year 3000, like bending the space of the page to like do sh stuff that like is unimaginable to the people, the other people of this world, because they just like haven't reached 5D in the like in the 2000s yet. Like, there's a lot of really cool stuff here, and some stuff should just be you know the single issue that it is. Like, I don't think like what they did, the two or three issues they've given to Captain America, that's all they needed. Like, they did a very effective job of like, okay, here's like the red skull, like Nazi cells, here's this man from the 40s coming into the future and being like, oh, you guys like don't or you guys like Nazis? Like, that's weird. And being kind of a little bit like terrified of that, or even Hank Pym. And the first issue, all the way back, being like, oh, and the other universe, like, the me of that other regular universe, like, beat his wife. Like, I if I take these powers, like, am I going to become this person? And Captain America being like, well, no. And like, like, that's really striking material. Maybe then it like can just be that one issue, you know, it doesn't need to be more than that. But there's a lot of fertile ground in this book to do more interesting stuff with this universe, and largely the ultimate universe as a whole squandered a lot of that potential, and it's kind of a kind of a bummer as this book goes out and kind of the last like interesting thing in the ultimate universe happens. What are we left with? Like, we're left with a couple of finale tie-it tie-up issues that are just gonna tie up some loose ends. We're kicking some making some new character boxes into ultimate reborn into the main universe, and it's I nearly fell asleep trying to read the first issue. It just it just rolled off my brain. It's it's you do have a smooth brain. I know, it really bounces off. It's like uh it's like crash test dummies. Um yeah, it's just it's a bummer to see like so much potential kind of go to waste, especially as like you know, there's a lot of critiques one could give the absolute universe, but I do think at least the absolute universe, largely speaking, is maybe a little bit more willing to kind of keep things going and engage with the things that it brings up. Um rather than kind of those things just sitting on a shelf because Dennis Camp was the only person who was like at the that is still left in the building. Mamoko and Hick and Dean, go on. Like, the only person still left in the building who just like cares enough.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:59

It's a bummer. Um go read this injectory.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:03

Let's call it.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:06

Welcome to the end of your life. This is also the end of the pod. I love you.