Why You Can’t Perform in Competition (Even If You’re Good in Training) | Chloe McNally Ep. 025

In this episode of Game Plan, we sit down with Chloe McNally,  Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, coach, and competitor,  to break down the mindset behind high-level performance. We dive into flow state, visualization, and why so many athletes struggle to perform in competition the same way they do in training, along with how mental training can transform results, build real confidence in BJJ, and prevent burnout from overtraining. We also get into coaching, athlete development, and creating a positive training environment that actually helps people improve long-term. If you’re into jiu-jitsu, grappling, or leveling up your mindset as an athlete, this one’s packed with practical takeaways.

Topics covered:
- Jiu-jitsu mindset and mental training  
- Flow state and peak performance  
- Visualization techniques for athletes  
- Competition anxiety and performance pressure  
- Building confidence in BJJ  
- Coaching philosophy and athlete development  
- Avoiding burnout in jiu-jitsu


0:00:00 Why She Stayed Off Social Media for Years
0:03:45 The Moment Content Creation Became a Trap
0:08:10 The Dark Side of Posting & Constant Validation
0:12:30 Why She Keeps Quitting Instagram (And Comes Back)
0:16:45 How Social Media Actually Builds a Coaching Business
0:22:10 The Coaching Philosophy Most Athletes Get Wrong
0:28:20 Why Copying Techniques Is Holding You Back
0:33:15 The Visualization Trick That Changed Everything
0:38:40 How She Went From Losing to Dominating at Black Belt
0:44:10 Flow State Explained (And Why You Can’t Force It)
0:49:55 The Mental Training Most Athletes Ignore
0:55:30 Why Overtraining Is Killing Your Progress
1:01:10 The Real Reason You Freeze in Competition
1:06:45 How to Train Your Nervous System for Winning
1:12:20 The Psychology Behind Competition Anxiety
1:18:05 The Biggest Mistake Coaches Make at Tournaments
1:23:40 Why “Fun” Is the Secret to Elite Performance
1:29:15 The Harsh Reality of High-Level Training Rooms
1:35:30 Why Most Athletes Burn Out (And Don’t Know Why)
1:42:00 The Truth About Confidence, Losing, and Longevity

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of Game Plan the Podcast. I'm your host, Davis Cole, joined as always by our producer Juice. Yo. Today's guest is a coach and a professional jujitsu athlete. Please welcome to the podcast, Chloe McNally. I was like graduating high school and I like graduated, I think, and then I found out all my friends had Instagram because I was just in like the martial arts bubble and like I just didn't I wasn't like focused on that kind of stuff at the time. I was just training a lot. And then like I saw my friends, I was like, oh, you guys are like using social media. But then my gym at the time had a no filming, no recording on the mat rule, like a hardline rule. And I really looking back, I have no idea why that was the rule. Um but then it kind of prevented me from being able to do anything online. So I kind of stayed out of it, eventually went to college, did I had like an Instagram and I posted like some pictures here and there of like doing a seminar or something like that, and then came back to Austin in 2020 to like coach jujitsu full-time, and then was just trying to figure out like coaching and competing and seeing like where things would go. 2022 realized I wanted to make content, and then now it's just been like staying committed to it, and now we're doing the podcast with like pretty much weekly episodes, so now I'm like I can't just like disappear off social media. Yeah, but if part of me wishes that I could just like go ghost mode and just disappear and not have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

Have you ever done like timers for yourself or had those type of parameters where you get locked out?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

No, like for like being on it. No, that would probably benefit me though, because I think one of the worst things that happened to me was the that year 2022 when I started making content, I took this I did this like challenge thing course where it was between one championship and this like content creation agency that they like teach you how to make content, and it was all short form content. And they wanted us to post on different platforms to just try to figure out like what's a good Instagram reel versus like a TikTok and how they're different, like YouTube Shorts. And so for the class, I got on TikTok, and then there was like, oh, study short form content. So I started looking at TikTok to try to gain like ideas and understanding of what perform well, and then all of a sudden I become scrolling on TikTok.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

So yeah, I've definitely had some times that have been worse. At least since we've done this, though, there's so much more work to do that I spend a considerably less time like scrolling social media, and at least like we're posting. Yeah, you're like, kind of post and ghost kind of thing, like put it out there, not check, because over the years I've had times where I was just like every 30 seconds compulsively checking to see like a view count go up and a light count go up. Whereas nowadays, like we finally had our first reel get more than 10,000 views. That's amazing. And we were like, I didn't even know because I wasn't like constantly checking, which is probably you know, there's a balance on keeping up with your own stuff, but also like it is just so unhealthy to sit there and just constantly refresh to see like, does someone love me?

SPEAKER_04 2:57

Yeah, it's like it's it is a drug the numbing out and uh kind of getting lost in something that's not the most healthy use of your time, and yeah, major time suck.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Do you use those um like app timer kind of things for anything, uh anything else, any other apps on your phone or anything like that?

SPEAKER_04 3:16

No, I uh I used to use those types of timers on Instagram specifically, but I've never had to use it for anything else because there's not really anything else on my phone that I'm putting that much time into that I don't feel is productive. Um and I try to be really mindful as challenging as that can be with how I'm allocating my time and if the time that I'm spending on things aligns with what I'm trying to achieve in the world and with what my goals are. And if I I try to be very intentional about it every single day, where am I lining up my day with things that actually are bringing me good energy? Like, is it if it aligns with my top priorities in life, then that's good. But Instagram never has, and um I'm not sure it ever will. But I was just telling Davis that I'm considering going back online recently. I've uh was thinking about it this morning and tried to figure out how to get a new password for it because I've been off of Instagram for a couple months. And throughout my whole Instagram uh experience, I've had periods of time where I've gone dark and deactivated my account and it's always been really positive for me.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah. What's the kind of motivation for jumping back on?

SPEAKER_04 4:32

I don't know if y'all talked about this already, but uh just that I I feel that there are some there are a lot of really great positive things about Instagram, especially if you are a coach or if you have some sort of uh offering to offer the world that's in service to people, humanity, animals, whatever it is. It's great because it can allow you to reach people that you wouldn't necessarily have had contact with. And most of the clients that I've worked with online are people I've never met before and they just randomly followed me or someone referred them to me. And so I would have never found them had I not um been online. And I coach more than just jujitsu. I've been certified with uh detoxing. I'm really fascinated by that. I've done some crazy cleanses that healed my a lot of debilitating issues that I had from um major staph infections and being addicted to the antibiotics, as you guys I'm sure have uh experienced in jiu-jitsu, and it just wrecks your, it wreaks havoc on your gut. And um, I was having really bad allergies, and so I got I did these cleanses and they changed my life. I have zero allergies. I used to be super allergic to dogs and cats. I grew up with them. I grew up with horses, dogs, cats. My face was always in their fur and just kind of dealt with it and have not, I have two cats and a dog, and I never have allergies. I don't get cedar fever, I don't I'm not affected by the allergies here in Austin. So they're incredible. They're not the you have to be super committed to do them, but that's just one of the things that I coach in, and that's been really um something that I've been super passionate about the last couple years after I got certified. And that's something that I kind of want to put more of my energy into. So that's also another motivation for me to get back online. And I do work with a lot of um coaching clients for jujitsu and kind of like mindset and helping them with certain goals, whether it's in competition or just in general, and kind of allowing them to uh get to the achieve what they want to achieve, mostly with what their jujitsu is. Cause a lot of people, I think, myself included, uh especially when I was a purple belt, would just try to copy people and try to copy and memorize sequences and just memorize what my coach was telling me rather than actually feeling what resonated with me and feeling into is what where are my instincts taking me? What am I called to do versus what am I, like what did I study and what am I forcing rather than just kind of being in the flow. So that took me a really long time to sort of figure out for myself. But that's something that just whether and whatever the client is coming to me for, that's ultimately what we always get into is how do we get to a more authentic jujitsu game and flow that is actually yours and not someone else's? And as a coach, that's something that I'm really passionate about is not trying to force people into doing things that I think is best for them, but leading them back to themselves and not away from who they are, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

How do you kind of like try to identify that for somebody that's only taken instruction from other people and it's like, oh, we're doing this today? Okay, let me do that today. You know?

SPEAKER_04 7:50

Yeah, that's a that's a really great question. I think a lot of it uh has to do with, and and I'm not there in person. A lot of this is um I'm they're in another country they're another country, another state. So it's asking them questions, like if we like kind of getting into a meditative meditative state, closing your eyes, like imagining, visual, visualizing you're in around, like where are you called to go? And I think that's a question that people don't always ask themselves because people are so afraid of making mistakes in jujitsu. And jujitsu is a sport, especially if you come up in a culture or an environment where the head coach or head instructor is not externally validating you. Sometimes the structures within these communities are set up that you're always looking for answers outside of yourself rather than kind of figuring out things for your own self. And I think as a practitioner, it's really important to be able to develop those skills of figuring out how do I get better without anyone here? How do I learn? What am I, where am I wanting to go with these moves? And then of course getting instruction. So back to your original question, I in the visualizations and kind of in that meditative state where they're having their eyes closed, they kind of walk me through where they're wanting to go. So maybe someone really wants to just wrestle up, but their coach is really adamant about having a really good guard and staying down. We kind of walk through a visualization of what it would feel like, what it would look like to actually wrestle up and, you know, continue on with the sequence or the technique. And that allows them to be able to implement it in the three-day in real life when they're actually training. Because there's so much study and evidence that the brain can't perceive the difference between a, or sorry, the brain doesn't know the difference between a perceived event and something that's real. And, you know, Michael Phelps is a great example of that in the sense that he a lot of his training when he got later on in his career wasn't necessarily a ton of hours in the pool. It was him visualizing the success of him being on the podium, what it would look like to be, to feel, to see all these other people upset that he won again. And just really um getting to know those feelings and rehearsing it so his nervous system was completely accustomed to what that felt like. So it was ordinary. Nothing was new, nothing was um novel, there was no real excitement about it. It was just a fact. And the more you do that type of visualization, the um the more likely something, the event that you're rehearsing for in your in your mind is likely to happen. And that for me, when I started doing that in 2022, right when I got my, it was a I got my black belt in 2021 and I had a really rough end to my brown belt competitive career. Um I started off really strong, won a bunch of titles, and then kind of bombed, was having like some major mental um blow-ups and doubts, and it was just kind of disastrous on the map where I would like black out and not be able to somehow someone would be on top of me and mount. And I don't know how I got there. I would just have major freeze, like freezing. And that had never happened to me before. Uh, but then when I got before the black belt competition season, I was super disciplined about visualizing multiple times throughout the day what it what I wanted to feel like. I love doing tomunagi, so I visualized that like on everybody. And sure enough, every major competition I did at Black Belt in 2022, I got to the finals. So that was oh and I tomunagged everybody. So and that was one of the world. Yeah. So that was probably one of my like that's I tell everybody that because it's it just it works. And for anything that I want, whether it's um a new type of car, even or an experience, I do a lot of that, like visualizing what I want it to feel like so that it's so ordinary that it doesn't feel like it's neutral. Because when you have a lot of excitement about something or nerves about something, that's putting energy into it. Whereas the more you get your nervous system accustomed to it, you're not blocking it, you're not in the way, you're just ready to receive it. And you kind of have to be in that state to arrive there. And that's the same with jujitsu. Uh, when you're in the flow state, like you can't have anything blocking you. You can't be in your head, you can't be thinking about, oh my God, this person's watching me. My coach is like, I better hit the move of the day, or this person beats me every single time. So, like shit shit shit. Can I swear? Sorry. Yeah, you can say whatever you want. Okay, no rules. Like shit shit. They have double sleeves. I'm going over, like you just that kind of you can't be in that type of frame. You just have to be responding and almost like predicting the future. And when you're in that flow state, you kind of see things before they happen. Like you're in that matrix, like where you can a bullet's coming at you and you're not even looking and you dodge it and SOMO. Yeah. And that's one of the best feelings in the world. And that's truly why I love jujitsu because for me, that is my entry point into flow state. And when you're there, anything is possible. It's like you see all these limitless possibilities and outcomes, and you get to choose where you go to, which is really cool. So that is a very long-winded. I don't even remember your question. No, that's kind of just going. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

I love um finding yourself in that kind of flow state. And I know that I've reached like a certain level of um, damn, like I guess like a certain skill level of uh thing that you're doing, right? Whenever you do find yourself in that flow state, like my first love was basketball, right? So I'm going and you you're there, right? Everything slows down, like you can move, it's just like the matrix, you know, like you can execute these different skills, you're not thinking about it, everything just seems so easy, right? You're just moving. And then same with jujitsu too. Like, ugh, it's it's beautiful. And the visualization thing is so incredibly fascinating to me because I remember hearing, or like I'll probably watch a video on YouTube, I don't know, um about a study on visualization, and it was um in regards to lifting and like gaining muscle. And the study, I'm paraphrasing, but it said something about um there were like minuscule differences between somebody that was actually in the gym lifting the weight versus somebody that was literally just sitting down and imagining themselves lifting the weight. And like they did all these, I don't know, studies and like tests and stuff like that. And um the results were absolutely crazy. Like, I'm I'm gonna get some mental reps in the gym right now, you know, just hang out, and that's crazy to me.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

Yeah, I think that's something that people do not uh they don't give enough credit to the mental and the mindset work. I think it's becoming a lot more popular now with a bunch of different athletes. Obviously, every Olympic cycle, I think that comes up again because most athletes at that level attribute a lot of their success to those type of practice practices. And it's I think most athletes, at least in jujitsu, are overtrained and they don't understand the importance of, like you're saying, sitting down and actually visualizing themselves doing the move and just letting your body become accustomed to what that is. Because there is a time and a place to use your brain when you're learning jujitsu, I think. But the more when you're actually actively rolling and you're sparring that you can get into that flow state, the better because you're not gonna be it, you're not gonna be forcing things, things are gonna come really naturally, and it all kind of goes hand in hand. And I definitely encourage a lot of my clients to try to, it's okay, like just get into the flow state. It doesn't, and you can get there, get there with anyone. It doesn't really matter who your partners are, and there's value with every in every experience that you have. It's just how intentional are you about it and kind of having intention for every single round, every single practice that you have uh based on what your goals are. So I'm totally there with you. I think I hope that more people start to ex learn about visualization and doing it because it's it's really magical.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Do you think that getting into like there there are steps you can take to almost ensure that you get into that flow state, or is it something that just happens because admittedly, I've never thought about it. I'm just like it's like avatar, like avatar state, yep, yep, and then I get there.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

And it's not something like I think about or you know, I'm like cognizant of that's probably why you get there because you're not overthinking it. I think a lot of people are in their heads and they live their daily lives in their heads and they have no real strong connection to their body, nor do they have any tools or practices that allow them to get into their body. But that's why people have always loved yoga because of the breathing and the movement, it just sort of invites you to get back into your body. And I think jujitsu also is a great invitation if you learn to shut off your brain. And I think a lot of that comes with just doing things. Like, for example, before tournaments, I would obviously be nervous and have anxiety. So I would go sprint, sprint until like I could not breathe. And I was that crazy person in the tournament or in the parking lot, just running really hard because when I could feel the anxiety in my body, I was like, okay, I gotta get out of here. Like this is fine. I'm not, it's a neutral thing, but like I don't want to put more energy into the nerves and have that have them compound. So I would just sprint or do sprawls or do push-ups, like something where I took my shoes off was like kind of feeling the earth or feeling um the walls, just something that kind of pushes you back into your body. I know a lot of um therapy, like EMDR practices, they do stuff like that to kind of get you back into your body.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

What's that? I'm not familiar with that.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

EMDR. It's a type of therapy. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I think it has to do with something rapid eye movement or something.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Oh, is this I I've heard about this from uh Huberman, like the horizontal eye movement.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

I think so. I mean 100%. I just know that because I was looking and I'm always kind of interested in learning more about how to get into your body and some of the practices, like they have people pushing up wall against walls, they have you doing actual push-ups, just something where you're moving and you kind of have like a goal. So like you're just moving in a way your body, and it just puts you back into your body and less in your head.

unknown 18:29

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Eye movement desynthesiz desynthesis eh movement desynth nailed it. Oh my gosh. Yeah, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. Oh my gosh. Um you killed that, bro. It focuses directly on changing how traumatic memories are stored in the brain through a process called bilateral stimulation. Um but yeah, the way I heard it from Huberman is like you go on like a walk with someone, and by looking like horizontally with your eyes as you go through the walk, it like allows you to kind of trauma dump in some kind of a lot of it, I think, is getting your nervous, like taking your nervous system out of a state of fight, flight, fawn, or freeze and just kind of allowing you to settle.

SPEAKER_04 19:17

And that's when you have the capacity to be able to release the trauma, the nerves, the anxiety. Um, I think a lot of people don't even realize they're in those states and then they're unable to deal with something. I think a lot of people with trauma don't want to remember it, obviously, because they're repressing it, because the fear of experiencing it again is very strong. But when you're in those states, from my understanding, that's you're allowed to actually, your body's like, okay, we can look at this now because I feel calm, I feel centered, I feel grounded. It's we're not in a state of panic or fear.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

You said fight, flight, fun, or freeze, fawn. Fawn. Yeah. It's fawn.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

Fawn, again, from my understanding.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

I think swoon.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

Yeah, like uh a fawning is like people pleasing a little bit, like you're kind of de-escalating a situation out of safety. Um, so you're kind of honestly dishonoring yourself and dimming your own light and energy to make other people feel comfortable. Uh, I believe it's a safety survival mechanism that when you're in an environment that feels unsafe, maybe it's socially or you just have your people pleaser, you do that to a fault so that others feel safe because you feel safest when you are in that state because you're in control of it a little bit. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Interesting. That's cool.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Um, again, I'm not a psychologist, but these are just how I'm understanding and interpreting the information. And I've had an amazing um uh a lot of the courses that I've done have been learning about the visualization through an amazing uh teacher and mentor, and it's it's just sort of spurred a whole uh new excitement and fascination in this type of this type of visualization work.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah, I find it really interesting because I've been coaching combat sports in jujitsu for a long time, and I feel like with the more time I spend, like obviously the technique work matters and like the conditioning programs for athletes matter, but over the years I've come back to like the visualization, the mindset is really the defining factor, especially like look at pro BJJ now. Everyone's really good, and I think a lot of the people that rise to the top have a better understanding of how to visualize. And and I've talked to the Tackets quite a bit about that. I know that that's something they do. Um, I bring it up all the time in here, but I have a little bit of a background in gymnastics, and I think gymnastics is even easier for the visualization because you have a routine, like a predetermined routine where you're gonna hit the sequence exactly. So, like jujitsu is much more chaotic, where maybe you have like your power moves, your A game that like you want to kind of funnel the match into your Tomonagi. Um, but there they can just straight up visualize. The entire sequence. And I think to your point about like the weightlifting reps, I'm pretty sure for gymnastics it's the same thing. We're like night before a meet, just run through your entire routine in your head, and I think that that counts just as well as like going through it yourself. And for me as a coach, I have felt like the biggest improvements I can make for kind of the rest of my career is more figuring out the mental side of training athletes rather than like the technical skill side. Not that that's not important, I just think that the mindset is ultimately what's the most important for things like professionally putting on like being a performer instead of just like rolling in the gym. You know? And then to your point about like finding your own moves in jujitsu, I think I heard this from Danaher. But like each student, Jiu-Jitsu's gonna have kind of three main influences for how they do things, like their coaches influence. I'm gonna tell you that we're gonna work a lot of arm drags. So you can become like good at arm drags, and then you have like your body type limitations, right? If you're super dimensional one way, long and lanky or short and stocky, that's gonna kind of limit how you do things. And then there's like the last part of like your personal expression, right? Like how do you want to do do jujitsu yourself? Um, but it sounds like you're almost emphasizing a little bit more on that third one of finding the things that work well for you and pushing into that.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

Yeah, and that might come later on in the jujitsu journey. I think I'm speaking more for people that have been training for a couple years, they've learned a bunch of moves, but they're kind of feeling at a like it's like a quarter life, midlife crisis, if you will, in your jujitsu um career where you're you've been training, you've been learning great moves, maybe you have a great instructor or you have access to great resources like instructionals, and you understand the concepts well, you're having mediocre success actually employing them and knowing when to pull the trigger on certain moves. And you're not really sure, like you just are feeling a little bit blocked. And that's when I think you kind of have to learn to use what you know and then connect it in a way that feels a little bit more um authentic. And for example, like when I was a purple belt, I'm really tall and lanky, I'm also really explosive. And I that was an attribute that I tried not to use very much in competition because at my school, when I was a purple belt, the meows were the best of the best. And that's who we all looked up to, and we all wanted to be barambolo fiends. Um, and so in competition, I would only try to bolo and like maybe I would win, and like I won a bunch of titles at purple belt, but I never was happy with my performance. It was like maybe I won by an advantage, or it was a really annoying match, and I swept in the last 10 seconds, or I finally took the back in the last 10 seconds, and it was just wasn't a very meaningful um experience on the mats for me. So I would always feel a little bit deflated in that sense. Like, yeah, you have a gold medal, maybe you have a title to your name now, but it's not, it wasn't anything that I was actually proud of. Whereas in the open weight, where you're a little bit more the weight class nerves are done, like maybe you won already, so like you can relax and you can just be free and have these outright wars where you're dead at the end, but like that was the most fun you've ever had because you left it all on the mat. You did stuff that maybe wasn't the most technically precise or beautiful to watch, but it was all heart and it was all heart-based, heart-led, and just fun. And those were always the matches that I think would lose where I gave it my all. I had much more pride in than the ones that I won. And those were the ones that people always would come up to me afterwards and be like, that was amazing. Maybe I didn't podium, maybe I got second, but I was operating from me and being really explosive. And it took my friend um Devontae Bones Johnson to like sit me down and be like, hey, you're explosive. You you should use that. Like, that's a gift. Like, why are you not using that in competition? And I was like, You're right. I don't know why I'm not. I was trying to be a little lightweight, featherweight at Bolo person. And I loved Bolo and I use them in scrambles, and I'm a very scrambly um fighter, but and so I'll use them when necessary, but trying to force something is just never one, no, does it not it doesn't feel good, it doesn't look good, and it's usually not gonna work um in my experience. And then you're just gassed in competition.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah, you had both those guys you just named competed last night in the UFC BGJ.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

Oh, did they? Yeah, yeah. I again not on Instagram. Not following any of that.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

So Devontae Johnson uh beat a guy named Lucas Norw.

SPEAKER_04 26:42

Oh, yes. Oh my god, sorry. I did know that he told me that he was fighting this week.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Almost dubbed him.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

He had it, he had his back at one point, he had him in a really deep anaconda that uh it was just one of those where they were just slightly offset. So even though he had it locked in, he had his knee over the elbow, he just couldn't finish him, but he looked pretty dominant. Um, yeah. You've unanimous 30-27, 3027, 3026. I mean, so they give him a 10-8 on one of those rounds. And then Joao, uh, he won a decision against uh Jesse A. Formiga. So I'm looking right now at the UFC BJJ results, and it was pretty exciting last night. Did you see the co-main event? Cassia Mora versus Fionn Davies.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

No, how did that go?

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Uh Cassia won decision.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Uh split decision, so it was close. Cassia just spammed arm drags, like arm drag to single leg, kind of got her to face plant like multiple times throughout the match. Davies got like close to passing a few times, got like half guard chest to chest, but they they gave the decision to Cassia, which I think like from my perspective, I think she won. Um, but it was really close. And I honestly said this to my buddy Jackson yesterday. I think that that was like the best female matchup I've ever seen. In that like Cassia is kind of newer. I don't know if you've been like seeing her, but for the last like two and a half years, she has just been climbing up and uh looking pretty unstoppable. And I think of Fiona as being at like the top for her weight class. And it wasn't like an Andrew vs. Cade match as far as like crazy scrambles and super exciting, but I do think that those two are like maybe a trilogy or something because I think that they're at the top. So um unfortunately, there was like what eight matches, and the only submission was uh mayhem Makeen. I don't know if you've seen this guy as well, but he is like the most exciting geek grappler I've seen in a really long time. He reminds me of like Ted Oday or something like that. Um but he got an arm bar, but every other match last night on UFC BJ was decisions, so I only watched the co-main event uh and the main event live. I just had to like scrub back and watch the other ones. But I don't know, I want to see more submissions. It bums me out when it's decisions, I think it makes it a little bit like harder to watch. I mean, that's like a three and a half hour show, and you're only getting one sub. I feel like that's like not ideal. Yeah, um, but the the matchups were really good. You had Elder Cruz and Nikki Rodriguez get a draw, which is like kind of disappointing, I guess. Um and like you know how the UFC BJ is doing the 10-9 rounds? Like a 10 10 point must scoring system, just like boxing or MMA. They seem to be very um, they're not reluctant to do 10-8 rounds, which is I think what happened there with uh Elder and Nicky Rodd. I think Elder won 10-9, 10-9, and then lost 10-8 in the third round. So I I I think that we have a lot to figure out on this 10-point scoring system for grappling because they're pushing a lot of 10-8 rounds that I'm like, I don't know if that's a 10-8. Like to me, a 10-8 would be something if it was an IBJ JF where there's like a 10 points difference or more, right? Like, I gotta like take you down, mount you, and take your back. That's like a 10-8. But they're calling 10-8s with just like semi-decent control, you know. But I'm bummed, I gotta go back and watch Joao's match because I only kind of like scrubbed through it and he's got like the coolest guard in jujitsu. How was it training with them?

SPEAKER_04 30:13

They are very tough, they felt like um rubber. Uh right. They're I think their hips and Levi Jones Leary's hips were probably the strongest hip flexors I've ever made grips on. And even with ghee pants, like it was just so hard to separate their knee from their chests, and they were just all so disciplined about keeping their knees really close to their chests and their feet in really good position. So it was really fun. Um it they I got beat up a lot. Um, yeah, they they were really, it was fun to have them in the gym because you know, when you have people that are really amazing athletes to look up to, it's that's always exciting to to have that as a reference point. And it was it was fun. Like I I as a for a while I didn't score one point, like there was maybe two years where I never scored a point in pro training ever. Um, I was one of the only females, and it was mostly those types of guys, so it was pretty great. And like during the pandemic, we were all um stuck in Jersey City, and so we would just all train together. And again, I was the only girl, and I was training with like some of the best people in the world. I had the Meows, I had Diego Pato, Jefferson, um, Jefferson Guarasi, and Italo Mora, and we were just, or sorry, not Italo wasn't there, that was later. Um, and I was just getting wrecked as a brown belt, but it was so fun because I came back and I was so much better. And there's something about getting beat up every single day and just kind of recognizing that okay, maybe I'm not gonna score, but I kind of am scoring in the long run because no one's gonna like the girls are not gonna be as tough as these guys, uh, at least biologically, like they're not the same strength level. They don't have as much testosterone, I hope, as some of these guys. And like I just know their guards are not gonna be as tough, and so it really gave me a lot of confidence uh in competition to just kind of like wreck and like go really hard because I felt very confident and motivated by the training that I had every single day. Um and yeah, it was really hard. I was really, really beat up all the time, and I I cried a lot, but it was good.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

I love the memes about like the like radio off car rides home from jujitsu bus because it's so real, and like anyone that's trained for any amount of time really, like you've you felt that, and like I still get that way.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Yeah, and I think I mean, as as a woman, I wasn't ever afraid to cry, and they kind of all got used to it too. Cause initially, when you're like sometimes that's just how everyone has a different way of releasing energy, and I'm not always crying because I'm sad, I cry when I'm happy too. And sometimes when I'm frustrated, it just they just come out like I'm not dry heaving or anything, but like tears are just running down my face. And I used to joke that I was a very high functioning crier because we would be going so hard and I'd have I'd be like tearing up and like having tears running down my face, but it was we still I still got the job done. I still trained it hard every single day, gave it my all. And those training partners were amazing, they were so supportive and they helped me a lot, especially like like I said, Devontae Johnson, Sebastian Rodriguez, Juni Ocasio, they were some of my best friends. And I felt so blessed to be able to train every day with my best friends and just push really hard towards goals. It was like we were living the dream um to show up every day, train twice a day, travel the world and go compete. It was so fun. I felt like we were almost like on tour, like a band. Yeah, like a little squad that would just go and um yeah, the Brazilians were awesome. And it was so like we were definitely really bonded because of the hard work that we were doing. And then the environment we were in was really tough. We had really tough standards to um to kind of navigate, and it was that also bonded us even more. And it was there were a lot of really amazing things that came out of that. We all became very tough, resilient people, but then there was a lot of um harder things to deal with too, I think emotionally and mentally. And back to what we were talking about earlier as far as coaching, I think a lot of the reason why people have success with the mindset and they're mentally stronger is not necessarily because they went through tough things, but I think because they were built up in a way where they're they were, they learned to believe in themselves. And a lot of people can get there on their own with um self-belief and like how I kind of felt a little bit like no one's as tough as these guys, like of course I'm gonna do really well, and that informed the way that I competed. But then also when you're constantly being broken down and maybe you're not really feeling super good about yourself, that also takes a toll. And that can also certainly impact the way that you navigate a tournament. And if you're overtrained, which all of us were, and I think most people in jujitsu historically have been, you get to the tournament and you've already fought like a bunch of mental internal battles. You are exhausted because you've prepped so hard, giving your everything to a camp that sometimes you're not showing up as your best self. And I know at least I talk to Bones a lot, and we talk about that how the prep looks different now for a lot of tournaments. And it's not so much time on the mat, it's more of a refining. And I've heard high-level Olympic level wrestlers talk about this too. It's like if you've put years on the mat, you don't necessarily need to be on the mat for the same amount of volume that you used to when you were younger or when you were greener. It's more about refining. And I've heard John Danaher talk about everything, like he talks about that like a wheel. Like you just need to find a way to keep the wheel turning. The actual keeping it turning doesn't take a lot of energy, but it's the initial energy that you put into the wheel to get it to make its first rotation that takes a little bit more of um a commitment and effort.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, I uh like coached the tackets when they were kids, so I've gotten like a cool pathway seeing their career go, and now we're just friends, you know, so I could keep up with their competitions. And what you just said is exactly how their comp prep has gone. Over time, the training volume has gone down, you know. Particularly because there's like injury factors with that too. But a lot of it is just like you don't need to train like you're 15 anymore because you've got a lot of good skills that you can kind of rely on, and the camp becomes ultimately more about like just being healthy and being in like a good conditioning and and making sure you're managing the injuries, and that like I think different phases of jujitsu require different things, like going back to our first thing of like finding what resonates with you in jujitsu. I like to ask my students that like once they've trained for long enough. So I think you need like this first phase where it's almost better to have people at your level where you can start experimenting and finding, like, oh, the armbar really works well for me. Yeah. And then I think that next phase where you're talking about having really tough training partners, I think everyone needs that too. Yeah. Where it's like, okay, I think at the beginning it's good to have almost beginners start with more beginners. And then at some point I think it's really good to just get beat up all the time. But like even John doesn't recommend that for like the best way to improve, right? He talks about like getting a lot of training with people that you are better than then, so you can get like your confidence up and get your reps in. So I think that like it's like that's the kind of the flow, is like the beginning, other people your level, and then a lot of time at those like crucial first couple of years. I think that's when it's best to get beat up the most. And then after that, I think you can be much more intentional about your training.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

Yeah, absolutely. And just with the intention too, like, where is it coming from? Is it becoming is it coming from the fact that you love jujitsu and you're intrinsically motivated by this amazing sport that you do? Or are you punishing yourself because you think you're not good enough? Are you, is it coming from like self-love? Because I bet you, like Michael Jordan, obviously I don't know him and I don't know this for a fact, but like he wasn't in the in the gym overnight shooting hoops because he hated himself. It's because he loved the game and he loved what he did. So I think that's also a huge, a huge thing that when I look back at my the times that I did over-train and overwork, because being the only girl, I was definitely motivated to work harder than a lot of the guys because I felt like I had to maybe prove myself that I belonged there and that I was just as tough. I that wasn't coming from self-love. That was coming out of a place of like honestly low self-worth, thinking that I had to work harder because I didn't belong naturally. So that that also when I coach kids, especially, I really try to build them up with um positive like self-talk and positive thoughts. Cause I I know a lot of kids, when there's a big discrepancy in skill, they're like, I don't want to roll with this person. They always beat me. And I'm like, well, now they're gonna beat you because you just said that. So why don't we change the way that story and why don't we change the way that you think about that? And it's probably gonna go better. And then sure enough, it usually does 90% of the time. Um, and they come out of that role a little bit more confident than they did when they started the role. Um, so I think that makes a big, a big difference too. And kind of just catch with adults too, you can say it in a different way. You can kind of catch their stories when someone's like, Oh, I'm not an athlete, I'm like, that's a story. Like, and you're making it more real for yourself every time you reaffirm it and every time you think it. So why don't we just stop thinking that and replace it with a different thought or affirmation or phrase and let's see what happens because it's not really working out very well for you if you're continuing to think that you're not an athlete and you're probably getting proof in your life that uh correlates to that.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah, I you're just making me think back to these times on the mat where I had like somebody that just had my number for years, even. And it becomes like the story I tell myself. Like, oh, I roll with this guy and I lose to this guy. And I remember like some breakthrough times where I'm like, wait, I don't have to lose to this person. I I can choose to not let them beat me and then like find out, oh my gosh, I could sub that guy that's been beating me up this whole time. Yeah. Just like have those breakthroughs that it was, I think like your your use of like the story you tell yourself, I think that that's very real. Because I mean, coaching kids, adults, it's definitely the same thing. And kind of to your point of like a kid that maybe thinks they can't win something on like the adult version of that. I'm like, I'll tell white belts like, dude, if you can just not get subbed by that person, that's such a victory. It's a win. And you need to like convince yourself that's a win, yeah. Like change what the win is.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Maybe the win is you submitting them. All right, take that out of your head. You're not gonna submit this person. But if you can make it really hard for them to score on you or really hard for them to submit you, they're gonna be defeated in the end. Because, like, yeah, if you just pick a goal like that, and that's where I think you also get more development on what you need to work on, because you see people, you know, especially the adult beginners having skewed goals, right? They're trying to achieve submissions, and it's like, well, look, you're a beginner, you need to work on just surviving. You don't even need to work on trying to submit people yet. But telling an adult that they're like, What? Yeah, I want to I want to do the thing I came here to do, which is like flying arm bars and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

On the same note, you you've trained in a lot of tough rooms, right, over the years. Do you have any advice for for people like we're talking about beginner white belt, but even not, you know, people that are like have been trained for a number of years but are just in really tough rooms. How does somebody get the most out of those training sessions when they feel like they're kind of like the worst one in the room?

SPEAKER_04 41:55

Uh sorry, just to clarify, you're asking if they've been in, they've been training for a while and they're in a tough room and they're just feeling kind of defeated and deflated all the time.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

Yeah, I think um kind of what Davis was mentioning just now, you have to reframe what a win is, I think, and also go in there with specific goals and specific little wins. And not, it's not always gonna look like what you want, but it's a stark improvement if you're constantly getting your back taken by this one person, but you get out every single time and just kind of reevaluating what um what is most important to you and why you why you're also doing it. I think a lot of people get lost in the sauce because they get on a cycle. It's very like a cycle of like, I gotta be better, I gotta get um, you know, achieve X, Y, and Z. And it's just like hedonic treadmill where you're constantly running on it and you're, you know, the carrot's right there, but you're never gonna reach it. Whereas if you look back and you're present with the process and you're present in your rounds, you're gonna feel a lot better than you do if you're thinking about how, you know, how things aren't working, how you're getting subbed all the time. I think just being present truly is gonna be, you're gonna get the most out of your rounds because you're gonna be better in your rounds than if you are if than you are if you're in your head. Does that make any sense?

SPEAKER_01 43:14

For sure. Yeah. It's just like kind of um from what we were talking about before, is just getting out of your head.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

Yeah. Because even when I was getting beat up, I was having a blast when I was in a good mental space and I was um present. If I wasn't present and I was stressed about an outside circumstance or an issue that I was having, or really getting down on myself and having very negative thoughts about how much I sucked, then it was not fun because I was fighting multiple battles, one in my head, one um physically. Yeah, and then one, you know, some sort of spiritual battle at the same time. So that was never fun. But when I went in there and I was like, let's fucking go. Like I just wanna just scrap. I don't care if I get it subbed. I'm gonna make it really tough, I'm gonna push really hard. It's gonna be really fun. Creativity was through the roof. I was coming up with like really cool, crazy sequences, and it was just fun. And then the biggest compliments I ever got from my training partners were that I felt like a man. And I like that was amazing because I was like, okay, I can maybe keep up with you explosively for one second, but I'm gonna make that one second really count for myself. And yeah, if you take my back and I tap 14 times, who cares? I'm I'm having fun.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:28

And I'm not in my head, and I'm just trying to make this um make this experience kind of last longer than just this eight-minute timer that we're following. So that's and anytime I fought a 10-minute match at Black Belt, it always felt like two seconds. It was so quick. And I was always like, shit, there's only one minute left. Like I have so much more that I would want to do in this 10 minutes. So I think there's no time. And it really collapses when you're in the in that flow state and you're not in your head. That's the best advice I could give someone. I know it's not always, it's pretty simple, but it's not always easy to adhere to as far as getting into your body and just kind of loosening, like relaxing into the present moment and relaxing into your jujitsu. That's something that I tell people all the time. Is just to kind of like, okay, just like don't force it. Just go like there's a time to be explosive, absolutely, but like don't be too rigid in the way that you're doing something. But that's a really hard thing for people to kind of wrap their heads around. And depending on the level of the of the person, it can be harder to um to sort of embody that that type of information.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

I have I have a question now that we're talking so much about like this mindset and the flow state. I train a lot, I've trained for a very long time. Um and I guess I'll just ask this for myself, but uh what would be your advice for someone who has an easy time getting into the flow state in the gym and then in competition, finding themselves not able to achieve that flow state, kind of competing at a level lower than like the kind of flow state in the gym? Like what would be your advice to someone to bridge that gap?

SPEAKER_04 46:09

So my first question would be: what are you feeling when you're in the tournament? Um, when you're at a tournament, what are the feelings that you're feeling? Are you feeling a lot of nerves? Are you feeling stressed? Are you feeling kind of panicky? Because those are not, those are blocks. You're not gonna be able to be in your body because those are states that are coming from your mind that are informing um the emotions attached to what you're worried, concerned, or stressed about. So you have to find a way, like a methodology that works for you specifically to get into your body. So I mentioned sprinting. I used to sprint, I used to do sprawls. Levi used to bring a meditation cushion and he would be sitting in the bullpen meditating, which would, of course, throw all of his competitors for, you know, a mind fuck. But it was like you just have to find the width, the methods that work for you. And you also have to um visualize yourself at competition. I have a client that I work with that has the exact same uh types of issues where they're smashing everyone in the gym, but when they get to competition, they are a shell of themselves. Yeah. And they're unable to pull the trigger. They they know what they're supposed to do, but there's a block, there's a hesitation where they're just not actually executing on what they're being called to. So there's like a conflict between heart and head, where your heart is like, okay, go this way, but you're not, you're too slow, or you're not actually doing it. And so that's when the visualization would come in and you visualize and and like when I would visualize in the beginning, I was very nervous. Like I would sometimes put the sounds of the tournament on in the background to kind of like again accustom myself to that. And even when I would watch a flow video or I would hear the tournament background noise, my heart rate would just spike and I'd be like, holy fuck, holy fuck. But it's not real. Like that's all in my head. It's not happening right now. What's real is me being in this room, in this chair, doing something that's gonna help my jujitsu. And so you just have to, just like uh you're when you learn a new move, you learn something new, you have to do it multiple times. You have to repeat it until your nervous system becomes accustomed to it. And the more you do these dress rehearsals, like we've talked about the science that goes into this, the more normal it becomes. And so when you walk into that tournament, you're no longer have palmy, you know, clammy hands, like you're not sweating, you're breathing normally. Everything is regulated so that it's you're very used to it. And it's just it's a non-event. And you visualize the prep that you feel before you walk onto the mat. So if you have a routine that's you go into the bullpen, you weigh in, you drink your water, you have your honey, you have whatever mustard. I know people have all their different snacks. Mustard, that's new. That's for um honey mustard. That's for uh so you don't cramp um if you've been cutting weight, like the acid. I I don't again, I don't know the science of it exactly, but I I've had a few students before have like packets of mustard. And I used it once and I I kind of liked it. Yeah. Um, it helps with um just keeping your like the sodium kind of helps with uh the the grip burnout that you can feel in the ghee.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

So if there's something that helps with that, I'm all for it because that is the weird part about the ghee she was doing it and I was like, I'm gonna try this.

SPEAKER_04 49:22

The last the I did a tournament shortly after, and I I kind of liked it. I thought I just grabbed a couple packs, had them had them on hand. Shoot it, just shoot some some hindsight. Between every fight, I would do it. And I kind of liked the way that it I didn't feel very um gassed as much, but uh that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Shout out, shout out Hines, shout out Grey Poupon trying to try to sponsor game plan.

SPEAKER_04 49:44

Dude, Grey Poupon after a week that would be just game plan sponsored by uh just regular yellow mustard, maybe a little spicy, but um yeah, I think that's that would be my recommendation is just to try to get as many stimuli as possible that would activate your nervous system in a tournament. So it could be the n the noises, it could be maybe you're listening to the song that you always listen to before you fight. Because sometimes that can spike your nervous system too. Like if you're in the car, I would notice my pre my song would pop up and I'd be like, oh my God, am I about like it just feels like I'm about to fight right now. And do you have a song?

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Do you have a song? What is it?

SPEAKER_04 50:22

Um I had a butt, like every tournament I made a new playlist because it would just depend on what my vibe was. And we would always have different playlists that would play at our pro training sessions at Unity that would lead up to tournaments. So if there was a particular song on that playlist that would like get me so pumped, and usually I had the best rounds when I the song was just evoke joy and excitement. So I would try to have those types of musical selections on my playlist. And um yeah, a lot of Kendrick Lamar and Pop Smoke at the time, I think in 2020 was like when he was everywhere. Um yeah, uh, so that type those types of songs will always kind of get like remind me of you know tough training and fun training. So those would be my recommendations for someone that's having a little bit of trouble and you know, doing having success on the mats in the training room and then replicating that on the in the competition floor.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Yeah, that that's good advice, and that makes sense because like every tournament I'd I'd ever done, I could see on both sides, like when I would think about the tournament, I would get like a little bit of an adrenaline dump, especially because it would get closer if I'm like trying to go to sleep and it's like really getting close. Um, but then to your point of like kind of exposure therapy for it, when I was like probably a teenager and I was just competing all the time, it just became normal. Yeah, and like I didn't that was definitely like my best competition run. I wasn't thinking about anything, and I was kind of like arrogant, which I think also can help in the right way, where I was just like super confident with myself and I believed in myself. You have to be and I didn't second guess things, and then as I like stopped competing as frequently, then it was like wow, I'm actually more nervous now than I was when I was like white, blue, purple.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Yeah, I feel like that's my problem. I don't compete, I'm a real big bitch. Um I've only competed twice. Um, but honestly, because of that, like I will continue, you know, to compete again because I have such a huge problem with it. Um, and yeah, I I guess I have to compete sometime this year too. You should sometimes be coming out before yeah, you just have to make it normal for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 52:37

And it it you can do that. Like, I recommend if you have a camp that you're prepping for in the gym, your visualization is a part of that, and that should be done starting six weeks out, eight weeks out, depending on what your timeline is with your goal. And you're doing that at least in the morning a dedicated time, at least in the evening, a dedicated amount of time towards it, and any other time that you can. Uh, you're just kind of getting into that that's that state of calm. And if you have a spike of nervousness or adrenaline, you're just kind of observing it with neutrality and not continuing to give it to feed it. Feed it. And then you just kind of wait there and breathe through it until it no longer is so charged, I guess. Yeah. And that exposure, I like exposure therapy is a great way to sort of um explain it because it's it you can make it familiar for yourself. You just have to actually work at it. And it's possible to just sit there for days on end just to kind of make it less of a thing for yourself. And you'll be able to have that happen for you.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Uh do you think it would be detrimental? You're talking about like six weeks out, eight weeks out. Do you think it would be a bad thing to do it even longer? Like further out?

SPEAKER_04 53:53

No, I think um it's not gonna make again, it's all about just being neutral. And I I think the more you could start today. If you don't know when you're competing next, like that would be great because then you're gonna be super prepared. And sometimes that's even better because some people have stress responses with timelines and they're like, oh my god, I'm six weeks out and I'm still fucking freaking out over this. Um do it now, make it really normal. You can add it, doesn't it really doesn't take a lot of time, it just takes dedication and intention. And you can achieve anything uh with intention. So as long as you're putting in the work, it shouldn't, I don't see an issue at all with starting now.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:36

If if you continue to create less of a charge with it.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Yeah, like you said earlier, kind of like getting the momentum started of like turning the wheel and then kind of touching it every day will make it so much easier.

SPEAKER_04 54:48

Exactly. And you have a great starting point because you said you f only have flow, you you get into the flow all the time without ever thinking in in the training room, right? So you know what that feels like. So my recommendation for you would be okay, close your eyes, visualize, you know, a fun session that you have. How does that actually feel in your body? Visualize and like feel your body doing the grips, doing the moves that you love to do. You've done it before. So that right there shows you that you're capable of doing it and your body has access to that. Now it's just using those exact feelings and placing you like a video game in a new level, a new context, dropping you in level seven of whatever the tournament you're gonna do. Um, and just kind of getting after it in that way. And you could start with really small competitions. I have some of the clients that I've worked with, they they do all the visualization, and maybe they want to do an IBJ JF, they want to do pans, or they have master worlds aspirations. So we they do a lot of nagas because they feel that's what's gonna be the best for them in addition to the visualizations. You don't have to do a tournament, you could visualize for like a thousand times from now until your next competition, and that would be enough to get you to have a great performance in a competition. Some people just feel like they need to be actually in the competition too to get the reps in to make it feel more real for them. But ultimately, just like with jujitsu, you find what works for you. You find the the ways that you like to learn, the ways that you like to drill, and just go with that.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Yeah. Yeah, it'll definitely be not a major competition.

SPEAKER_04 56:25

I mean, it's whatever. I mean, it could be a naga, it could be a random in-house.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Be like a like a naga of like a grappling industries or something.

SPEAKER_04 56:33

Yeah, it doesn't have to be anything because that's the the truth is it could be worlds, it could be a super fight right here in this room. It doesn't really matter. It what matters is how you feel about it and how your body reacts to the event. That's what, and that's what you have to fix. And then when you fix that and you have a um a really solid nervous system, a trust and belief in yourself to abil your in your ability to execute, you're gonna win everything. And that's really what it is. It's like the belief and the trust and the knowing of what you're capable of and the realities that you're envisioning and embodying when you embody it, that's when it's game over for everyone else. Yeah, but it's very difficult to get there sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 57:16

For sure.

SPEAKER_04 57:17

It requires some work, but it's not, it's it's achievable and possible for every single person. And you see people like when they are they're having like a ton of trouble at colored belts, maybe, and they get their black belt and all of a sudden they're just demolishing people, or they were having on and off performances, and they kind of get into that that rhythm of just unwavering self-belief, unshakable, not letting a loss define who they are as a person. I think that's where people, competitors lose their way a lot, is because they tie their self-worth to their achievements. And you can do all the work and have um a lot of discipline and hours visual visualizing. But if you get out there and you lose and what the experience that you have does not line up with the vision that you have, you have to keep going and kind of disregard what happened as something that's one real and two true for you. So if I'm visualizing to be world champion and I go out and have my world champion run and I don't win, I can't let that derail me. I have to get right back to it and not let that have any sort of um effect on the way that I see my goal and the way that I am continuing. Because it's the people who stick with it are the ones that end up achieving it. And my friend um Rebecca Badoni, she always says, like it's the people that are still there that usually end up winning and achieving what they want to achieve. Because a lot of people drop out, especially women. All the girls that I came up with at purple belt, blue belt, brown belt, even, and black belt, like our first year at black belt, like they're half of them are out. More than half, I would say. There's new ones coming up every year, more and more, actually, which is really cool. But a lot of people they don't they leave for whatever reason. Um, but I think a lot of it has to do with the relationship they have to competing and how that inf how that infects the way that they see themselves.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

Yeah, my um expectations and goals are incredibly low, for better or worse. Like, literally, my goal is to do it. That's awesome, you know, and um I don't care about winning um for better or worse. I just want to do it because I'm so comfortable in the training room, and um the amount of like anxiety and uncomfortability that I have and get even thinking about competing, um, like bothers me. So just going out and doing it is that's a win for me. I'm cool with that.

SPEAKER_04 59:48

That's great. That's a great way to to kind of approach it all.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Are you familiar with like uh Jeff Glover and Pete the Greek and Je Joel Tudor from like San Diego?

SPEAKER_04 59:57

Joel Tudor and Jeff Glover, yeah, as jujitsu athletes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Yeah, so um you mentioned fun earlier, and like they have this like saying of like no one has more fun in jujitsu. And like I just I like their energy, they're just like they're very goofy. Um but to your point about like those fun training sessions and getting into the flow. I especially when the Tackets were still at Fight Factory, we had like a really good room for for a couple years of kind of post-pandemic to recently. Um, and I was like, nah, we have more fun than like you know, those guys in in San Diego. And I think that the fun part is like an extremely important part for training, and I think that's like for both of us, like we goof off. I have a ton of fun. We have a lot of fun in training, we both like music, we'll play music, it's like always singing during roles and annoying people, but it's like it's a good environment. And a lot of the times, both in competition or in the gym, like when I'm performing the best, it's always just like when I'm having fun, you know, and I think that that's like a a tricky thing, especially since I've spent so much time training. Like I've seen burnout gone through 10 phases of burnout, kind of coming and going, you know. And I think that like it's important to maintain the fun part of training, even if you're taking it like professionally.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:10

Yeah, 100%. Usually the people that are most playful are the most beautiful movers. So you mentioned like mayhem, he's like he I've seen videos of him. I know people who've trained with him, like he's always playing and like dancing, and usually the people and the in my experience, the people that I rolled with that always had that type of vibe and energy, like very light and just playful and kind of like making fun, like teasing, that was they had gorgeous jujitsu, like beautiful to watch because they're kind of uninhibited. They're already if you're playful and you have access to your imagination, you're inherently creative. All of us are, but not everyone is outrightly is outright plain. And when you are playing and that's an active part of your practicing, not maybe, maybe not in a pro session, but in another session or in some other way, you're gonna have the ability to tap into the flow as well. So I would say also actually, for people that are stressing about not doing well in their pro sessions, like find other sessions to go to. You can do a pro session once a day, maybe every other day. You don't have to be there in every single session. There is value in getting beat up, as we've discussed, but go to a session where you're like beating up on white belts, or maybe it's if it's a you're a female, go to an all-women's class where you can actually have an impact on someone else and um enjoy the, enjoy it. It doesn't always have to be crazy tough training balls to the wall, like dying drenched in sweat afterwards. There's so much value in just taking it slow, even having just a technical session, maybe you're just flow rolling or slowing it down even more and playing a game of like physical chess where you're moving only one move at a time, just changing it up so that you're giving your nervous system a break and an opportunity to relax into the jujitsu. Because if you're so rigid and strict and pushing yourself in a specific way, your body's gonna see jujitsu as something that's not safe and you're gonna like close up and lock up even more. But when it's fun, what happens? You relax and then you have access to everything. Your creativity is always, you know, the universe is always bringing these amazing ideas and instincts into your brain. But you don't you block yourself from having that when you're tight and constricted and there's stress and there's pressure. So you always have to find ways to remind yourself why you do jujitsu, why it's so fun, and you know, why it's empowering. So I think that that's the reason that a lot of us get into it is because we learn so much about ourselves and about how we navigate through the world, and it just makes it it makes us better. And it is an opportunity for it for us to find to kind of get to a more authentic version of ourselves if we give it the jujitsu the opportunity to do that. But if you're really strict and tight and rigid, it's not it's gonna do the opposite. You're gonna kind of be locked up even further away from who you are.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

I feel like my I feel like I am incredibly playful, probably too playful in my jiu-jitsu. But yeah, but would you s would you call my jujitsu beautiful? How how explain my jujitsu, Davis?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

He moves well. Yeah, I think like now you're making me you you keep making me think of like all these memories and in training and stuff, and and you we kind of mentioned it with the music and the playlist for camp. But like I've done it!

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

The music seems so loud.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

But I feel like it's like Pavlov's dogs, and I've had that happen to me where I had like a coach who just played the same playlist every day, and I hated the playlist. Yeah. But if I heard that playlist, like my lock-in body, like locked in, yeah, and I was just like ready to go. Um careless whisper for me, baby. Yeah, do you are you do you play music during like if you're gonna give a class?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:01

Do you play music or are you like a silence, like I love music and the gym that I came up in, we always had music, like I mentioned, in the pro sessions. And at night class too, that was also the most fun because when you were teaching the classes, you got to be the DJ. Right. And I was so uh thoughtful about what I wanted to evoke, like what I wanted people to leave my class, how I wanted them to feel after they were done with my class. And the music selections I made would often go hand in hand with that. But sometimes the vibe was not right, and I would completely switch up the playlist and just randomly do things based off of what I was feeling, what I was seeing, or this person could totally use uh this little pick me up right now. Like it just was fun in that way. I've been in training rooms recently that don't play any music, and it's definitely still um, I still have a lot of fun and I still can get out, get a lot out of that. But sometimes when the music does come on, it's it's just different. It's just much lighter. And I would say that music is probably the easiest way for you to kind of switch your state, your emotional state, um pretty instantly. So for people, again, going back to your question about how would I relax, how would I take the pressure off myself, make it light, make it fun. Grab a training partner. You could do it in your garage, you could do it in your living room, play some music, and just make jujitsu fun again and make jujitsu fun for yourself. Because if it's not fun, and I lived this for years where you're just going through the motions of hitting every single tournament at the time of year that it comes up, and you're forcing yourself to do it and you're pushing yourself to die every single day, it's not fun and your performance will show it. So whatever wherever you are in your journey, whether you do it professionally, whether you do it for as a hobby, it's important to have the sessions that remind you of the joy that you gotta bring the joy back into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

Make jujitsu fun again.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

Yeah. No, I I think like especially for keeping students in like longevity, you know, like I think for pros, there's like a completely different training environment that needs to happen and etiquette that needs to exist. But for the majority of just like students, like I think that that's that's the way to go. Because now that I just keep thinking of like these moments on the mat with like flow state, and even taking the music. Like when I get so into the music that's playing that that's kind of what's occupying the front of my mind, the jujitsu just flows. Yeah, you know, and loud all sorts of different music that invokes like different kind of RPMs too, where like we play a lot of like heavy metal and things like that in the gym. Yeah, and there's certain ones of those that'll they'll kind of trigger me, and I'm like, all right, it's time to move fast and go a little harder. And then there's like one of the most powerful to me is Florence in the machine. Oh my gosh, put that on, and I'm like ready to go to battle, which is not really like what you'd expect, but for me it hits.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:54

That's you just I I had a crazy session the other day to jazz. Let's go. I was shocked. It was the most, it was one of the most exhausting rounds I've ever done. And I was like, What the fuck? Like, why like it was crazy? And um, my my partner, he films it some of the sessions sometimes, and so we looked at it like afterwards and I was like, that was some crazy stuff that we were doing, and I don't even know. Like, I always know for me, and I don't know if this is good or bad necessarily, but oftentimes my partners will be like, How did you do that? What did you do? And I'm like, I don't know. I blacked out, I was so in the flow, I could probably replicate it if I thought about it. And oftentimes it is very helpful to have that film because you can go see what you did, and you're like, oh my God, how did I even do that? But that's all flow. You can achieve things that you didn't even know you knew how to do. Maybe you see someone hit a hit a really cool entry flying submission, and you're like, I could never do that. And then you hit it after only seeing it once from that flow state. And the jazz got me there. That was crazy. I it was so fast, and we were just kind of um, I guess, being invited to elevate into that frequency, and it was just really a really fun session.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

That's sick. I feel like jujitsu's the jazz of martial arts, right? It's like kind of chaotic, yeah. It's a lot of just like changing things up on a moment's notice. Um, last time we were all together was at a little in-house tournament here in town, and uh that was beautiful. Yeah, I was I've been thinking about like you I can't remember exactly what we were talking about, like the kind of getting deep desensitized to the competition environment, and like an in-house tournament is the perfect example of that, right? There's a lot of kids competing in that, and I I guess kind of from like the coaching standpoint, is like well, we're just gonna normalize this, right? There's a little extra belt, and like you step onto the mat, there's points, there's people screaming at you, and then like I'm sure for some of those kids, that first time they go to an actual tournament will probably be less threatening, yeah. Less anxiety-inducing. Yeah, you know. And then I also noticed like um it was really cool getting to watch you coach because I was just there as like the referee. So I kind of had like the observation side of it, and it was just really cool seeing how you worked with your kids. Um, because like I've coached kids for a really long time, and it's like very different now. Um I keep bringing the same point up, but like I'm having like more girls than boys in my classes on times, and it's just like you mentioned so many times that you're like the only girl in the training room, and then in like 10 years it's changed so much. Yeah you know, UFC BJJ, code of main event, female match. Um, so like what's it been like for you going from the only girl in the room to having like an army of little girls that are competing?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:42

It's it's really fun, it's really cool. I the kids are just I think for me the biggest thing I I never wanted to coach kids. That was always a big um resistant point. Like, I just I never wanted to teach actually in general. I was not into it, I was not interested. I just wanted to be a student, I just wanted to learn, I just wanted to train. And my old coach at Unity, he kind of forced me to do it. And I'm very grateful that he did because it allowed me to grow in an uncomfortable in a place that I felt very uncomfortable. I didn't like being the center of attention, I didn't like speaking to people. I thought, why would they come to my class when they can just go to yours? Like, I I don't feel like I have anything that I is gonna be any novel way of saying or showing this, but uh I'm really happy that he did do that because it turned out that it became something that I did get a lot out of. And I learn more, I think, than the students do. And for me, that that's amazing. And the kids have taught me more about life than any other experience I've ever had. And Rebecca Badoni is the one who forced me to do kids. She didn't force me. She just um she's very persuasive and difficult to say no to, but she's also she's an incredible kids instructor. In fact, she might be the best kids coach I've ever seen. Uh, the way that she explains things and empowers the kids with still giving them structure and boundaries and support is just unbelievable. And it's not, she's very disciplined and she has really high standards and she allows the kids to kind of um want that too. And she's not like this harsh disciplinarian, she's just she's gifted, and it's really I learned a lot working with her, and then that led to a bunch of other opportunities for me to work with kids. But kids have been, they're so fun to watch, they're so playful. If you're feeling stale in your jiu-jitsu, just go watch kids, like they're not in their heads, they're I mean, some of them are. Um, and part of our job as coaches is helping them navigate that. But a lot of kids are just, they just want to play. They see a padded room, they just run on the mat and want to start screaming and going crazy. And part of me is like, you know, you want to corral that but at the same time, it's like that's your instinct. Like, that's kind of a beautiful thing. Um, and they're just so unafraid to like be messy or you know, not have something not work out, and that's really inspiring for me. And so kids have been such a blessing in the sense that I'm learning more about myself as a human, as an athlete, as a coach, and as a practitioner. And it's been, it's been wonderful. I've really grown a lot from from those experiences.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:29

Yeah, I think like one of the the most challenging things with the kids is finding that like authoritarian disciplinarian role balance with like being nurturing, because like you do have to do both.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:39

Like kids' behavior sometimes will get crazy. But then like even just something like a as small as an in-house tournament can like induce anxiety, and there's people yelling, coaches yelling, parents yelling, and like it's just nerve-wracking. So you can have like a kid get overwhelmed, and it's like if you approach that overwhelmed kid that may be like crying after a jujitsu match with authoritative, disciplinarian approach, like they're gonna that's not gonna be helpful for them, you know. So it's like those moments you gotta be very nurturing with them, and kind of to the same point of like the the instincts. I've like just kind of try to get my program, particularly for the youngest kids, around like letting those instincts come out in a somewhat controlled way. Because if I just try to control them, they're gonna resist that. So like letting them scream, letting them make some noise, letting them like run into the wall a little bit. So that way I, you know, make like a little exchange, like, okay, you get to play around a little bit, but then right after that, we're gonna like really focus. Yeah, you know, and it's just rewarding, right? Like I'm I kind of had the opposite experience. It's not that I didn't want to coach kids, I just like didn't think about it, but I just like fell into the coaching role really early on, and kind of even like before doing jujitsu, I was like trying to show people how to do like boxing and stuff, yeah. Um but now I'm at a phase where like I think it's what I'm best at. So now I'm like still doing it, and I'm like, man, I never thought that this is where I would be where I'm still teaching kids jujitsu, but it's fun. Um it's been interesting. I've like really implemented a lot more uh like game-based training for the kids. Whereas like in my years in the past, I like noticed that my role as a coach would cause burnout, like I could almost induce burnout on kids, and so in trying to combat that, try to figure out like other ways to have them train because kids shouldn't really train like adults, and I think it kind of differs like which age bracket they're in as they get older, it can shift more towards like adult training. Yeah, um, but lately I've basically just been trying to come up with different games or stealing other people's games, depending uh to I can get them to like do what you were talking about from the very beginning of like find your own jujitsu, yeah, you know, and then encourage that path. And I feel like the best way I've I've figured my my class, my especially the youngest ones to do that is give them like two or maybe three options on a game where it's like you can wrestle up or play guard. And like I have some students, I cannot convince them to play guard every time I do a specific training, they just kick away stand-up wrestle. And I'm like, all right, I'm not gonna force you to be a guard player. And I got other kids that they just naturally fall onto their back and they want to use their legs, and it's like, cool, you're clearly gonna get built up there. Whereas in the past, I was like forcing them to drill what I think is important as the coach and like impose my style on them. And lately I've gotten better of like just creating the game-based stuff. Um it's really good for them. I haven't honestly found as much success with my adult classes on the games, and I think part of that's like putting kids to do certain games, like the way they scramble. I'm not like afraid for them to get hurt. Yeah, whereas like with adults, I'm like constantly afraid of the adults getting hurt. Yeah, they're so much more sensitive to injury.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:43

It can be stressful coaching adults in the yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:47

Especially like the more beginner or non-athlete adults, you know, you gotta really like make sure that they're uh it's just the old people knees, right? I feel like I watch kids go through these scrambles and they rip each other backwards from turtle and they're totally fine. Whereas like with adults, if you do that, like it's like kind of a it's not the same, kind of a no-no. So what what have you thought of like the last couple years with um like what is it, standard jujitsu, right? Is that Greg Sauders?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:16

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:17

The ecological with your experience in jujitsu, call it like getting up to black belt. Was this ecological argument even in the scene yet?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:29

Um, so Greg used to train with us a little bit. He I think back in 2017, he was coming to New York and training at Henzo's a little bit, and he would pop in. He had some students that would come to our school too. So I didn't really hear about the ecological stuff until a couple years ago. Um, but I also stay in my own lane and I was kind of I'm not a really, as I've mentioned, Instagram social media person. So I was kind of just focused on me and what I was doing and what my team was doing. And uh I got pretty good at jujitsu and all my teammates got really good at jujitsu training in the way that we trained. And looking back, I definitely wish there was more. I took the initiative to have more elements of play because I think that would have made my mental state with jujitsu a little bit more lax and not so rigid. So I really do like the idea of creative drills and creativity drills, but contextualized with technique. Because sometimes uh if you're have like things that are too open-ended, and I'm not an expert in that CLA-based training ecological style either. So I could be completely missing the mark with my understanding. But from my experience and what works for me and what I've seen people do really well with is if you're advanced and you have a solid understanding of jujitsu, I think the ecological approach can be really good. And like again, it's like a it's you're being creative, you're kind of exploring new things. There is maybe an element of play there as well. Um, and it's a little bit less of a stressful environment as far as to achieve something new and find a new pathway. But I also think they're advanced people, so they kind of know what they're doing, they know how to move inherently, they kind of already have context that grounds them in the um in what the game is trying to achieve. But creativity drills I really like too because you have like maybe you're learning a specific way to do a triangle and you only know how to set it up from closed guard or only one way in open guard. But doing something like that where you're kind of just moving through different sequences and trying things and not worried about the person on top trying to pass your guard or submit you, it allows for you to kind of relax into the into the game and into the moment and relax into your jujitsu and you end up achieving really cool pathways. We did do some drills like that at Unity for warmups, which were really cool, that now that I think of, um were super helpful as far as finding new pathways and finding out different ways to chain together different moves and chain together um maybe parts of your game that you didn't know how to link up. And so I I've always been a very huge fan of those types of drills and giving those to clients, whether in private lessons or having them recommending they do it to in their own sessions, just having a space to be creative with low stakes. So I don't know if that's considered ecological or CLA based, but I've also seen adults do brand new adults ecological, try to do an ecological game and get injured like crazy. Like just, I don't know. And it just to me, it's not necessarily when you bring up these terms too, people get very heated, they're very polarizing. I think a lot of times because people's ways of doing things and what they believe in is so strongly tied to their ego that it becomes a conversation that's not even productive because no one wants to hear what they're actually what the other person's trying to say. And even if they say they do, there's just so much hubris and pride involved that I shut down. I'm just like, I'm tuning everyone out. Like it doesn't really matter what we're calling it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:15

It's it's really, it's just like a jujitsu practitioner. When you find out what works for you, what style of jujitsu you like, the kind of teaching you like, um, it's the same thing for coaches. You have to find your style, you have to find your voice. And maybe you lean one way or the other, but ultimately it's what's right for you. I don't think there's necessarily one right way, one wrong way. I think, you know, I have my opinions about what I like to do, but I'm not gonna like if someone wants to go only do eco CLA, like that's good luck, amazing. Go do that. Exactly. Like it doesn't affect me. Yeah. So why am I freaking out over it? Like it doesn't, it's not part of my world. Like, yeah, go do that. If someone only wants to drill and never spar, doesn't affect me. Like, it's not what I'm doing. But like, yeah, like good luck. Again, like neutrally, like, I'm not thinking my way is better or not. I just know what works for me. I know what's worked for my students. But that being said, I'm also open to trying new things. And the way that I run my team and my staff, I've done it at RGA, I do it at AMP now, is that it's a very collaborating coaching process. And a lot of my assistants that work with me, they all like to lead and they like to teach. And they love to all of us learn so much when when you watch another person teach. And it's always collaborative. I'm always like, how did that go? What do we think? Should we adapt? And like it's a team joint decision. Sometimes I, as the lead, I'll make a quick, swift switch into something else or completely scrap what I thought I was gonna show. Um, but we, I really sometimes I can't see what's going on in the room, or I'm in my own head about something, and someone else will come to me and be like, I think this person's having a trouble here, or maybe we should think about shifting the technique to this or doing a game that allows them to learn how to actually use the underhook and not just try to pass within a front headlock, you know. So it's I'm open. I have a game plan, but I'm always open to the flow of what is, you know, what what is the need. And I think it comes back to what do the kids, what do they need right now? Meeting them at where they're at, meeting them with what um is gonna support them and leave them feeling better. Because the worst thing for me, a failure to me as a kids coach would be if they leave depleted, if they leave feeling worse about themselves than when they walked in. And if they like, if they didn't have a session that empowered them, because that's what it is at the end of the day. Like, if you want to be a world champion, great, I'll try to help you get there. I'll do whatever I can to help you, but we're gonna do it in a way that does not make you hate it, does not make you resent your parents or me or the sport itself, and doesn't break you down because I think so many times coaches go wrong when they are trying so hard to force someone to do something. Maybe they're well intentioned, but they're not, they're blind and they're not seeing the kid for who they are, that they're a human being and maybe it's not right for them, maybe it's not working for them. And I said this earlier, but I really believe it's being a good coach is about leading someone back to who they are and giving them the tools and equipping them with ways in which they can be successful as is. So, not like if it's a body shape thing, like I'm not gonna force kids to do barren bolos because it looks cool and I'm gonna brag about how all my students can bolo and take the back. It's like maybe that person can't do bolos and they're they're better at uh like clothes guard. Okay, well, we'll work to make sure that you have the most crazy, scary clothes guard that you can have. Um and yeah, that's that's why I think a lot of people go wrong. And I've seen a lot of kids just really give up on it. And even the way coaches behave at kids' pans, I was disgusted. And that was why I have thought about a lot of times stepping away from kids' programs because it's really sad the way that certain coaches will behave. Like I was at Kids' Pans a couple years ago, and one of my students was a multi-time Pan American champion, and she'd beaten a lot of kids from really good schools like AOJ, Atos, and they all came to root against her. And adults, famous people who won multiple black belt world titles that are very successful adults coming to cheer against a nine-year-old girl.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:33

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:34

And when she got armbarred, they were cheering. She was seriously injured. I'm now as like, she's fucking nine years old. Thankfully, a happy-go-lucky child, completely oblivious to that. But I was disgusting. And I I couldn't believe that like people were just so I don't know, in their egos or their perfect record wasn't upheld by this one little anomaly girl who wins because she's so joyful. Yeah, it it's really was it really turned me off.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

I think that was kind of what I was trying to point out of like what my caught what caught my attention when we were at the in-house tournament was kind of like how you managed how everyone was going to treat that kind of a moment. Like, you know, don't vote don't cheer against them, and if like you lose, like be just comforting in the right kind of ways. And you just said a few things of like what I've mentioned to a lot of parents for like my experience with their kid training, is like, look, as long as they don't get like hurt, traumatized, they don't hate you, and they don't hate me. I have like all sorts of kids, and I'm sure you do too, where they play like nine different sports, right? So sometimes they take a break from as much jujitsu and they're gonna go do swimming or basketball season or something, and sometimes they have like big life changes that pulls them away. And I'm like, look, as long as when they walk away from the mat, the last time they were there, they didn't get thrown so hard they got the wind knocked out of them, and they had their parents screaming at them when they were in bottom mount to just get up or whatever, and their coach wasn't like rude to them and made it worse, then their memory with the sport is gonna be kind of positive because I've had kids and I've coached long enough now, I've had kids that come and go, come and go, come and go, come and go, all the way to an adult, and then they're like actual adults now, and they seemingly still had a good relationship with it. Whereas like I've also, due to myself or due to parents or competition environments, you know, created those kind of places where it's just like way too much pressure for a kid, and you can see that like in their eyes they're kind of burnt out, and like the competition can get too rough, and you know, I've I've I know exactly what you're talking about of like the parents that go too hard, and yeah, against my best efforts as a coach trying not to burn a kid out, but sometimes on like the family end, there's so much pressure to perform, yeah. You know, that it just like you you can tell with a kid. I now kind of have my approach to pushing kids as they get older because I've noticed that in the ages under 10, especially, the harder they push into competition, it's just Like too soon. And I mean, like when I was growing up, people always joked about it like football and baseball, like these kids in middle school thinking they're gonna be pro athletes, and it's like it's just too early to tell. Yeah, and I think the same thing for jujitsu. Um at Fight Factory we talk about like Yuri Samoes quite a bit because Hodrigo had was like around him a lot as a kid, and I mean he's like an absolute ADcc champ, you know, that's like the best title you could arguably get, right? But Hodrigo always tells a story about when he was a kid in juvenile, like he was just losing over and over and over forever, but he stuck with it, and that's kind of your same point of like yeah, sticking with it from earlier. Um but you have to have the coach and the family in a kind of a certain attitude during a process like that to where they could get through it. And and you know, again, I always kind of point to the tackets experience because they're so successful now, right? And I got to see like how their parents were when they were kids, and it was the same kind of thing. They they they didn't, I mean they pushed their kids a little bit, but it was like they the boys wanted to do it and like they did things of like essentially rewarding them more at the in the home if they lost than if they won. So like they'd win something at home, yeah, regardless. You're gonna be able to do that. But like if you yeah, and like you still get cool stuff, and if you win, you still get something, but like not a bigger prize for winning. Yeah, in fact, a bigger prize for losing. Yeah, and it's like not taking away their value just for losing. But again, they were kind of terrorizing everyone in tournaments for most of their young career.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:26

That's why I didn't want to coach uh kids initially, because I knew how I had had really uh abusive coaches when I was a kid and in other sports, and you know, I've seen the way that a coach can completely uh tear someone down and then make them want to leave the sport. And so I just felt like it was a huge responsibility and something that I held with a lot of reverence and I just didn't want to mess anything. You don't want a part of that. Hands off, hands off. Exactly. But then when I got into it, I realized okay, they're actually the responsibility is it's kind of a sacred thing, and I can contribute in a really positive way as long if my intentions are good and I'm constantly um kind of grounding myself with those intentions before every single practice or session. Like I I think it's you know, I I can figure this out. And uh it's it is something that has to be, it's a very delicate balance, and you have to always, I have to always remind myself like step to step back and just make sure is the child safe? Not just from a physical perspective, are they emotionally, mentally safe? And am I creating the environment which allows them to do that? And it's it's really hard sometimes because it's just not something I think that a lot of people consider or coaches even think about because at the end of the day, your kid, the kids are gonna emulate what they see. And if they see if they see you cheering against a nine-year-old girl for losing, they're gonna be assholes at tournaments. They're gonna be dicks. And it's it's just you don't want to raise an army of dicks.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:01

And they're they're kind of unfortunately, there's a lot of teams that have that. And it's it's such a bummer. Like I I was at an ADCC open last August, and there's parents screaming at referees saying, like, you fucking suck, like just horrible behavior, like really out of like four, like they don't even train, like they can't even do a triangle. So why are you trying to have an opinion on something that you know nothing about? Right. And you only know it from one perspective. And if you want to fucking talk to me about jujitsu, like, can you beat me up? Probably not. So why are you trying to have this disagreement? And just I saw the way that a lot of the parents would talk to their kids if the kid lost. Like a kid, I was watching a kid, he really tough, had a really tough fight, ended up losing. And the dad, first thing he says is that takedown was trash. And I was like, You don't even train. What the fuck are you talking about? And I I am not, I get in I don't hold back sometimes when I hear people um speaking to children that way. And I it's it's very a difficult situation because you know, parents will get and it just it doesn't always end up end positively. So it's it's really challenging with the kids, and I I have a hard time sometimes with the parents because they if they're not training, and even if they are training, it's it's very difficult to protect the kid if um their parent is not the most supportive in a way that still is helpful for them because you only get them for an hour a day, right? They're with their parents for major much more than that. So, and we're not parents, so we're not their parents. Um so yeah, it it's definitely challenging.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:52

I I had to your point about like not wanting to do the the kids' coaching recently, that was how I felt over the last like I don't know, six weeks or so of like the news coming out in the sport of jujitsu where I got like so defeated where I was like, I just don't want to teach this anymore. I just wanted to like pull myself out of the sport, but kind of in like I feel like what you just described with the kids where it's like, well, I'm also in this position to be able to actually create better environments, make a positive influence. Yeah, like where my frustration lies is the people that are in my position. So if I step away, how does that like improve anything? Yeah, you know, but I understand that feeling of just like, gosh, this is so there's such a potential for negative outcomes here that it feels safer to just like walk away. But then I realized I love jujitsu way too much, and I'm not gonna do that. So now I just gotta like stay in the community and do what I you know make my best attempts to try to like keep it positive. And I I share the the same feeling of like coming back into Austin over the last six years and being at a lot of local competitions of like seeing how people treat other people and like not being afraid to speak up. Yeah, and I've been doing that more and more, and I think like when I was younger, maybe I was less confident in my own ability to like read a situation. But now if I see things that I don't think are right, I don't care who you are, and I'll call you out. And I've you know, refereeing situations where you kick parents out of the venue, that's good, yeah, whatever, or just like talking to coaches of like, hey man, I've almost gotten into like a fight at ADCC from an adult, pretty famous adult coach screaming at kids, yeah, and like talking shit to kids during match or like in matches, you know, and it's like that's hey, that's not cool. Yeah, you want to talk shit, talk shit to me. Yeah, whatever. I don't try to get into altercations with people, but to the same point of like defending the kids, right? Like there's a certain intensity where like I I think back to uh you know, 15 years more than that now, but like a long time ago, the Naga scene was kind of like what you'd expect classic sport environment to look like, where it's like crazy parents treating, you know, like we think of it as like uh football or baseball parenting or something, but that in the jujitsu world where it's like the same thing screaming at referees, screaming at their kids, kid loses a match and the parent just walks away from the mat to not like be there for them after. And I'm like, man, that's that's just terrible.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:21

Yeah, it's it's hard to speak up. I am trying to get better at it too. It's it's definitely um it parents don't ever I haven't had any that have reacted well to it. Um I think that's why sometimes I'm like, oh my God, okay, I have to psych myself up to do it. But sometimes I just go and I will I can't even help it. Like I've walked onto mats before, um, where I see something that I feel is really inappropriate. And I just I let my gut kind of if I'm in my head about it, then it it's over, it's lost, I lost the moment. But if it's just an instinctual reaction, my gut, and this is like true for jujitsu, your gut cannot lead you to the wrong spot. Like that is we're blessed to have that, our gut instincts. And the more you honor them, the more they will serve you and save you and lead you into the right, the right being at the right places at the right time. And so any time that I've acted without thinking, it's always been incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:17

Like you stand by that later. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:20

I don't ever regret acting from my gut, even if it caused issues and there was maybe someone could characterize something as a negative. I I don't care. Like if I I'm my gut is my gut and I trust it. And if you I've ignored my gut multiple times, and the consequences are much worse than just going with your gut and kind of just owning it and accepting whatever happens, happens. I trust that this was gift the gut instinct was gifted to me for a reason, so I'm gonna go with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:51

Now, now you've uh I'm just like thinking about these tournament settings. Do you have any advice on jujitsu cornering or like what do you think about bad cornering? Because I know that you've been at tournaments where you hear like some coaches, whether it could be a coach or just family friends, whoever's yelling at people, like what is your method for cornering? And then like, what do you think of I don't know if you have any examples of like people saying crazy things from the sideline? Because I feel like the parent conversation kind of touches on that, yeah, right? Because you could have like parents trying to corner or trying to coach or just say whatever from the sideline, and that can be where, like, you know, maybe a kid's losing and a parent, like they kind of lose their emotional control, and then they start like screaming at a kid when they're already down on points. And it's like, you are not helping the situation at all.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:36

So I'm just curious, like, what are your thoughts on cornering and like who what kind of cornering uh has inspired you? And then like what you think of what are like what are like the useless things to say during a match?

SPEAKER_04 1:37:47

I think with my students and the parents of the uh the kids that I coach, we have a very, and I reiterate this every tournament, we have like group chats, and I'm like, hey guys, tomorrow's for the kids, and we want to make sure that the experience is positive and they leave, whether they win or they lose, it's a positive experience. And a lot of that comes from the way that the parents behave. And if I, especially at tournaments, if I see a parent trying to insert themselves in the coaching, I will nip that in the bud because that's not their job. And even in practice, if they're sideline coaching, you have to be, it's not always easy if it's the same person over and over again. Um, I've had to just be a robot, no sideline coaching, no sideline coaching, just like, and I I don't love the way I feel when I say that either, but it's also so important because at the end of the day, I'm the one who's invested my time and energy and years of refining a certain skill set. So I'm more of an expert than you are, even if you have a black belt. Like, have you been coaching kids as long as I have? Like, I don't care on the authority in this in this room on the subject. Maybe you can beat me up. I don't care. Like you are paying membership where I am the coach. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. But the kid has to learn to listen to my voice in a stressful environment when they're scared, when they're feeling uh not as confident, or they're feeling great. Doesn't matter the situation or what they're feeling, they need to know that I'm the one that's gonna be there with them and have their back. And that's what I want to evoke when I'm coaching and cornering someone is that you're not alone. I'm here with you, just like I'm here with you every single day on the mats. We're here together. You are not gonna, you're not gonna face this, whatever you're facing solo. And that's how I try to coach. If they're losing, it's still you're not alone. I'm here with you. You're not gonna be lost. And no matter what happens, I'm here. No matter what happens, I always hug. I always say good job because it's not easy to get out on the mats, it's not easy to compete, whatever age you're at, whatever happens in the fight, it's not an easy thing. And it's important to respect that, honor their um commitment to being out there and just go from there. And I just want people to have a positive experience in the competition because I personally have had many negative experiences at competitions and been coached in ways that were super positive, and then also been coached in ways that were not helpful. And Devontae Johnson is an incredible coach. He has coached me from losing, like completely being down on points to just subbing people in the last 10 seconds. He was always someone that helped me to believe in myself because his belief in me was so strong. He's incredible with kids. He's I I don't know what about his kids' program now, but back in the day when we were blue and purple and brown belts, his kids' program was incredible. His kids were so empowered and changed by his um his influence on their lives. So that is someone that I would say look to him as a coach. You can hear him. He's very clear, he's very positive. He's not investing his own emotions into the coaching. I think a lot of coaches go wrong when something is not going according to their plan and they're like, ah, and like you can hear their frustration. When someone's emotions get into it, there's no place for your emotions because it's not about me, it's about my student. So it's my job to be neutral but encouraging. And if they're losing, there's no or like there's no, um, I'm not scared, I'm not worried, there's no stress in my voice. Maybe there's some urgency, like, you gotta move, gotta move. Like you got this, you can do it. Like positive, but also I'm a I am not going anywhere. Like no matter what happens, like I'm not going anywhere. If we're going to the hospital, I'm not going anywhere. Like I'm there with you from start to finish. And I think that's what I always wanted in a coach and someone who had my back. And I knew when I had those people in my corner, I just knew I was never gonna lose. And even if I did, like I still didn't lose. Like, look at this squad of people here cheering for me and helping me, like they're with me. And it's really important too when you have you get ready for competitions. And I mentioned it was some of the best times of my life where like we'd be grinding really hard with your training partners and then they'd be there cheering you on. Looking in the crowd and seeing them is always what pushed me. Watching them fight before I fought, always the best motivation. If I was nervous, I would just go to the tournament and just watch my friends wreck, and then I'd be like, okay, that's my turn. I can't wait. Let's go. And same with my students too. Like they, it's so inspiring. Like, if you're ever like, I don't want to fight, I'm nervous. Or like, I always tell parents to bring their kids, if their kids are apprehensive about fighting, just bring them to the tournament. See if they like what's going on, get them used to the insanity that is the parents of other students of other kids at the tournament and see how they react. A lot of kids are like, oh, I want to do this, like, this is so cool. I'm super excited to fight again. Some are like, you know what? Not for me. And no problem. Like it's not for everyone, nor should it be forced on everyone. So it should always be the kids' choice, I think, first, and um, you know, go from there.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:59

Yeah, that was that was uh super well said. Um I like for me, I got lucky enough to be in Austin over the last six years. It's just been like the best place for the no-gee scene, you know. And I've on the emotional side of it, I had a really cool learning experience being at an Enigma where Gary Tunnen was coaching.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:19

He's an amazing coach.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:21

Another, at the time, New Wave, now Kingsway, whatever, another just teammate, not a coach, got super emotional and was yelling stuff from the sideline. And Gary kind of like tapped him on the arm and was like, Hey, you can say whatever you have to say, but you need to take that like tone out of your voice. And he like, it was pretty abrasive, kind of called him out in a small room and like a small um like enigma thing. But I really appreciated his point there because you could tell that the teammate was getting emotional, like you just described, and Gary was like, Look, just say what you have to say, but take the tone out. And that moment for me, I was like, Oh, I've definitely done that, I've definitely lost and had my own adrenaline dump in it. And I think kind of to the point we're talking about of like getting desensitized as a coach, I've cornered all the tournaments that exist, and I've been there before, so the visualization side for the coach is very easy. I don't get like adrenaline, and I've been through so many matches now where I can keep my emotions more under control now, but I can think back to other times that I was like panic stress coaching. Yeah, and you can see that you can like gas someone out, you can like kill someone's will. Um, and I I kind of wanted you to re-state your uh your example of having Andrew corner you yeah, so I I've only competed twice, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:37

The first time he was cornering me, the second time uh bluebelt uh Andrew was cornering me, and um it was great. He gave me a lot of like good pointers, good tips, and things like that. But there are also some slight funny negatives, right? Like negative aspects. Like we're we're going, we're standing up, we're hand fighting, and he's like, Come on, uh, come on, Jews, come on, Jews, you gotta you gotta you gotta commit, you gotta, you know, go for something, go for something, you know. Um he's like, you gotta shoot. So I I commit to a shot, and he's like, Well, you know, would have picked a different time, but you know, that's okay. I'm like, fuck, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:13

Yeah, and but like, you know, Andrew's so fun and so playful that you can kind of have that experience and be like, I whatever. Like, you know, it doesn't really get to you. Yeah, but I think like I just and I'm sure you've seen it so many times on like when that energy goes too far that way. And then like I also and I'm sure you have the same problem of like just bad coaching advice, yeah, you know, but I think that that's too technical. Yeah, I there's just some people I think that as corners they just don't have the experiences that we've had with good coaches to like guide you along the way. But there's every tournament, I'm going to one this weekend, and I like I think I'm probably going to the same one tomorrow. Yeah, I get really excited of like every tournament I go to, I can watch hundreds of matches potentially, but certainly like a lot of matches, and I always like learn something. There's always some kind of theme of like, oh man, everyone's passing the same way or whatever. Um, but then lately I've just been getting a lot of joy out of just like sitting back and observing and lit actually listening to coaching. And like if you were to like put it down on a transcript, like this is what you're actually saying to this person. And it's so unhelpful.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:21

That would be completely it would be helpful for the coach. I would love to hear what I say sometimes too, because I'm mindful of that. Sometimes I need to adjust mid-moment. Like, what am I saying? Like, is this actually helping them?

SPEAKER_03 1:46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:33

Um, and what is what are we trying to get out of this? But as the coach, you're providing the the container energetically. Like, are you creating a safe space for your for your student in that environment? Because it's very tournaments are very abrasive and they're very, they're not the friendliest of places with all of the stress and anxiety that have comes from this the the actual competitors as well as the parents. It's it's a very, I don't love them. They're not my favorite environment. And I have to like do a lot of like grounding meditation work, prayer praying before I go into a space like that because it's not, they're kind of gross. And like I think IVJFs are even some of the worst, actually, because you have these disgusting egos that are perched, like setting up shop at different mats, and like it just reeks, like it's just not a fun vibe, not a great environment. And it's something that I kind of have to psych myself up for and like put on armor, if you will, to like go in there because you're just dealing with egos all the time. And um, I'm sure my ego has come out multiple times in those environments because sometimes it's hard not to. And jujitsu, it can be a place where you kill your ego, but it's also a place where an ego will just continue to get more uh belligerent and stubborn and really difficult to detach from. So it's it's tough. I don't love coaching at tournaments, but I do it for my students and because I am invested in them and it's not about me, it's about them, and something that I know is gonna hopefully be helpful for them. But yeah, tournaments are not probably my least favorite place in the world. And IBJF, ADCC opens the worst of the worst.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:23

What would you say is your favorite place in the world?

SPEAKER_04 1:48:25

Um that's a great question. Uh jujitsu in jujitsu from a jujitsu perspective, my favorite place is probably to be training with good music and just playing and having like a really fun creative session. Um I feel that when I teach too, when it's you just know that it was meaningful to me and to others. That's really a a fun place to be in. And then I just love being with my animals outside. Um, I have crazy cats that go outside two cats and a dog. Yeah, and my dog likes it. It's just it's fun. I love to be surrounded by animals because that's how I grew up with just packs of dogs and cats and horses. Yeah, it was it was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:10

That actually kind of answers what what I was gonna ask of like I I can relate to some of the position you're in. Maybe there's like subtle differences in what we do, and I'm not like in fully in charge of the gym, you know. I'm just a coach at Fight Factory, but it seems like you're you know, you're a leader at the gym, right? You're a coach, you gotta go to a tournament and be kind of like leader of the team, you gotta teach classes, right? And so you're in charge of that moment. What do you do outside of the gym and kind of off the mat to reset having all that pressure on you all the time?

SPEAKER_04 1:49:42

Uh, that's a great question. I am very I get my energy uh when I re I have to recharge. Um, and usually that's me being outside. I mean, Austin is great. I was in New York City for most of my adult life up until a couple years ago. And I was really depleted because there's just not a lot of natural elements in the city. There's Central Park, which is beautiful, but not always the most convenient to get to. But here in Austin, the sun is almost always shining. So being outside, um, I love swimming because I grew up in the ocean. So if I can swim in a lake or um any type of body of water, I'm usually in that. Like I love swimming. And yeah, just being with my animals honestly makes me feel the most recharged and nurtured. Um and just taking time for myself. Cause and that's like I get people tease me a lot that I, you know, am such an introvert and would be happy living on a mountaintop by myself. But I truly am. And I really, it took me a long time to cultivate a really healthy relationship with my own self. So now I actually really do enjoy spending time with my own self and kind of protecting that too. Because as a coach, I'm sure you can feel that people often you'll give your energy to people and you'll you're happy to be there for them. But sometimes people aren't necessarily good at respecting boundaries and will take and take and take. And I just need to make sure that I'm giving into and pouring into my own self before I can be the best coach I can be. So a lot of it does involve being outside and with my animals and with people that I am, you know, super close to. I'm if I'm hanging out with you, it means that I like you because I I decline most uh social invitations.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:33

I can I can relate with all that. It was like around a year and a half ago, I was going through some burnout and just like made the realization for me it was like hiking, camping, big road tripping. I do a lot of hunting and fishing too, and finding like a frequency to continue to go out and do those things so that way like when it's Monday through Friday at the gym or just like the kind of grind being at coaching for tournaments, like there's a balance there. Because like I said before, I've you know had times where I was just like jujitsu day in, day out for years on end without like a break and like not taking a step back for a second. And now I've tried to be like find it something that grounds me outside of the gym so that way when I'm at the gym I'm the best I can be, you know. And I definitely went too far uh at times without figuring out what worked for me, and then I had to kind of figure out all right, what is it exactly that does hit for me? And it's basically the same thing you're describing, like some animals and or just like quiet green space.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:31

Getting, you know, getting anywhere outside. I like the fishing because it's kind of like the most quiet, you know, you're just sitting there and there's not it's not a conversation with the fish, you're just waiting for it, you know. But stuff like that has helped me a lot dealing with like um how much is demanded of you, especially at things like tournaments. I mean, depending on the size of the competition team you have, and I'm sure you've been here too, where you are running around mat to mat to mat, and like you try to do like, all right, you just lost. I need to kind of like give you that hug, whatever, to kind of like check in. But I'm also being screamed at by five people to run over to Matt 4 right now. Yeah. So, like, all right, uh, are you good enough? Okay, you're good enough on running away now. Yeah, you know, and sometimes that's like hours on end. And if you're an introvert, you finish that day and you're like, wow, my people meter is completely depleted right now, and what do I have to do tomorrow?

SPEAKER_04 1:53:22

I think also that's actually so funny because you bring up a really great point that I've really had to change the way that I decompress after a tournament too, because I have a tendency to disassociate. Um, and I can go, I'm a productive disassociator, if that's even a thing. But I can what it is now. Okay. And so I have some people that are like, where are you going? And like they can pull me back in because they know me really well. But when you're in an environment like that in a tournament where it's high stress, high pressure, you're running around like all over the place, you never have a chance to kind of take a deep breath. It's super easy to stay on that frequency and just like continue on the rest of the day. So I've actually the last two tournaments have had to just like stop everything and just lie on the floor and just let my body just kind of like like not even like don't scroll, don't put on Netflix, like don't do anything where you're gonna numb out, but actually just like let yourself kind of settle. And I take baths, I take Epsom salt baths, and that's been the best kind of like decompression for me. And then I think you have to find your way back to presence because if you don't, I find that I kind of get on those, I get more and more away from myself. And then the next day, the day after that, you have like a hangover from the tournament and you're just feeling even worse about everything. Maybe you're the tendency to be stressed comes more into the forefront. So finding like doing like some sort of grounding ritual, if you will, that kind of brings you back to yourself, whether it's with animals, animals are amazing because they invite you to be present, they invite you to be playing with them, touching them, and like that's so good for your nervous system too, just to pet a dog, pet a cat, play, walk outside, that kind of stuff. So it's I'm already planning what I'm gonna do tomorrow after all of that because it's so important. And I I get super caught up in things, and I I'm sure you guys are the same. Like when you have a lot going on, um, it's I have like to produce a lot, I have a high productivity rate, but it's the cost sometimes is that I am not present. So I'm trying to remind myself to stay, I can be present and still very productive. In fact, I'm probably more productive when I am present. So making that my um my home base rather than just kind of like wizzing around from thing to thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:45

Man, um, I gotta wrap it up here. Okay, yeah. It was incredible hearing your persp perspective on all this stuff, especially with the um kind of like mindset towards competition and things like that. Um, is there anywhere that you want to shout out for uh where people can find you or or where they can kind of support you?

SPEAKER_04 1:56:03

Uh I hopefully by the time this airs, I'll have my Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:08

There'll be a bit of a delay too. So you actually have some.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:11

I have time to like remember my password. Uh I I I should have an Instagram um back up. It's at Chloe and McNally, and that's probably the best place that people can find me.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:22

Awesome. Dope. Well, thank you so much for watching, and we'll be back with another episode soon. Juice, you got anything?

SPEAKER_01 1:56:28

Um let us know your favorite place to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:32

Yeah, nice. I like that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:35

All right, cool. I think that wraps it up. So thanks, guys. Game plan.