Avoid Autistic Burnout | Thursday is the New Friday with Guest Joe Sanok

In this episode of Amplifying Autism, Wendy speaks with author, entrepreneur, and podcast host Joe Sanok about burnout, productivity, and creating a healthier relationship with work.

Joe is the author of Thursday is the New Friday: How to Work Fewer Hours, Make More Money, and Spend Time Doing What You Want, which explores how a four-day workweek can improve creativity, productivity, and overall well-being. While Joe is not autistic himself, his work offers valuable insights for autistic and neurodivergent adults who often experience exhaustion from trying to meet workplace expectations that were not designed with their needs in mind.

We’ll talk about flexible schedules, intentional recovery time, and how workplace accommodations can help prevent burnout while still allowing people to do meaningful work. We’ll also discuss about Joe’s newer book, Dating After Betrayal, which provides tools for healing, reflection, and rebuilding confidence after a difficult breakup.

Takeaways:

• Workplace flexibility can help autistic adults avoid burnout and be more productive
 • Recovery time is not laziness, it is an important part of sustainable success
 • Accommodations and modifications can help you thrive at work
 • Creativity and productivity often improve when people have more control over their schedules
 • Healing after a breakup takes time, reflection, and self-compassion
 • You can move forward after difficult life transitions without losing yourself in the process

About Joe Sanok:

Joe Sanok is the author of Thursday is the New Friday: How to Work Fewer Hours, Make More Money, and Spend Time Doing What You Want. His work focuses on productivity, entrepreneurship, leadership, and building healthier relationships with work.

Joe has been featured in Harvard Business Review, Forbes, NASDAQ, and hundreds of podcast interviews. He is also the host of The Practice of the Practice Podcast, one of the top business podcasts worldwide, with more than 1,200 episodes and over 100,000 monthly downloads.

Fun fact: Joe strongly dislikes mint chocolate chip ice cream.

Podcast: The Practice of the Practice Podcast

Website: practiceofthepractice.com

About Your Host:

Wendela Whitcomb Marsh, MA, RSD, is an award-winning author, TEDx speaker, and host of Amplifying Autism. Though not autistic herself, Wendy has dedicated her career to supporting the neurodivergent community. She is the founder of Adulting While Autistic and helps late-diagnosed autistic adults find clarity and community. 

Books Available on Amazon

Website: wendelawhitcombmarsh.com
Instagram: @wendela.w.marsh
Adulting While Autistic: @adultingwhileautistic 

Join the Newsletter: https://forms.aweber.com/form/49/591191449.htm

Thank You for Listening:

If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it. Your support helps us reach more late-diagnosed autistic adults and those who care about them. 

YouTube: @AmplifyingAutism

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

This is Amplifying Autism, where every voice matters and every story shines. Join us as autistic authors, professionals, and trailblazers share their journeys, real stories, and real insight from those changing the world, one conversation at a time. I'm delighted to welcome to the podcast my friend Joe Sanok. Joe has been featured in Harvard Business Review, Forbes, NASDAQ, and over 300 business podcast interviews. He's the host of the popular Practice of the Practice podcast. It's one of the top 50 podcasts worldwide with over 1,200 episodes. I've been following Practice of the Practice for more than a decade. And in fact, his was the first podcast I ever guested on. A couple of things that Joe and I have in common, we're both authors, and we're not autistic, but we care about sharing important information and strategies that might help neurodivergent folk. Joe is the author of Thursday is the new Friday. How to work fewer hours, make more money, and spend time doing what you want. It examines how the four-day work week boosts creativity and productivity. Well, my autistic family and friends are very creative and they yearn to be productive. But for many, working five days a week drains them of productivity and they have no strength left to do what they want creatively outside of work. For many, this leads to autistic burnout. Joe explains how you can get the job done and still have recovery time and time to pursue your interests outside of work. Now, I told you what we have in common, but here's one thing Joe and I do not have in common. Joe hates thin mint cookies and mint chocolate chip ice cream. Hates them. Well, I am afraid we are on opposite sides here. I love a thin mint straight out of the freezer. However, I am willing to look past this because I've learned so much from Joe over the years. And I want you to have the benefit of his expertise too. So with no further ado, welcome to Amplifying Autism, Joe Sanok. Joe Sannock, welcome to the podcast. Now, one thing that you and I have in common is we're not autistic.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

No.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

But we do care about some issues that are very important to our autistic listeners. And one of those is about employment. Now, lots of autistic people are very uh it's difficult for them to switch from to to accept something new. It takes time for something new to uh to become comfortable. And I read something you wrote online, whereas an employer you had a team member who was very negative in all the team meetings. Now, some bosses might say, we have uh a climate of positivity and you do not fit this. So, you know, you're not a team player, but you had a different uh resolution to work with her. Could you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Yeah, so uh I still remember Tara, and um it was interesting because our relationship outside of team meetings was very positive. She was optimistic, she was a great therapist, and we would get in these team meetings and we'd talk about what we were doing, and I'd say, We're gonna do this marketing effort, or we're gonna do this. And routinely she would say, Well, we've already tried that, that won't work, or uh, I don't know about that, or why are we even doing that? And it was really confusing to me. And you know, it never didn't click until we all took um this assessment called how the world sees you. And so uh what's nice about Sally Hogshead's assessment is it it's how you come across to the world, not like most other assessments, you know, like the strength finder or you know, Myers Briggs, those are all like how you see the world. But what I loved about this is it's how you come across to the world. And she was she came in as I forget what the title was, but it was something like the traditionalist or the historian. There was some kind of fancy name for it. But basically what it meant was that she values legacy, she values tradition, she valued things that that had been going before, and that was just something she really valued. And one of the things that came through that was that she really wasn't someone that that could deal with change well unless she knew how it connected with other things before. So then I shifted my posture where I would talk to her before team meetings and say, you know, we're doing this new marketing thing on local radio. It's very similar to what we're doing with the local newspaper, except we're doing it on radio. Um, so it's really an extension of what we've done. Uh, and to me, it's kind of that next step. Um, it's new in one way, but it's also traditional in another way. And literally, like overnight, she became one of the biggest cheerleaders for change. And I think that it points to no matter your team member, they could be autistic, maybe not, to try to understand the motivating factors of someone behind something and to then say, how do we pull that out as a strength? Because if my entire team looks like me, we're gonna just go in the same direction and probably miss a lot of things. I tend to move fast, I tend to not think through things as well as maybe I should. I need people to poke holes in it. And that's where I think a lot of autistic people can add such value because they have a different way of seeing different situations.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Yes, that is so true. And I love the way you handled that. I wish that all employers would uh listen to this and hear that. Another issue that many autistic people in the workplace uh deal with is burnout. And so often working five days a week is just really difficult to maintain over time because they're masking all day long. It's incredibly difficult and uh uses so much energy to just try to be at work. Um so they they do burn out after a while. And I just want to hold this up. This is my copy of Thursday is the new Friday. How to I've tried to read this, I know the big title, how to work fewer hours, make more money, and spend time doing what you want, which I think everybody needs. But autistic folk really burn out a four-day week would be great for them. Can you give us some uh tips about about this topic? I mean, the title says a lot, but you say so much more.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Oh, thank you. You know, I think that one thing um anyone needs to think through is where is my energy? Uh, and to just think through what time of day is it, what day of the week is it. For me, I'm a person, you know, I was raised by a behavioral psychologist and uh had star charts from like the earliest age. So inside my brain, I really have this feeling of I can't relax until everything's done. And so I need to have dishes done, I need to have the work week done. So that means that for me personally, my most creative day is usually Thursday, the last day that I work in a week, because I feel like all the stuff I had to do is out of the way. Whereas if I had it be Monday or Tuesday, I would know I have all this consulting and podcasting coming up. So I know for myself, my energy for creativity is best on a Thursday. Uh, I also know that uh I don't tend to be a morning person, and so I'm groggy in the morning. So I'm gonna work on things that don't need that heavy mental load, and really that from like 10 a.m. to probably 1 p.m. is my sweet spot of when I need to have the best type of energy, and so that's where I'm gonna put my biggest projects. And so for someone who's autistic, to just start noticing in yourself, like what do I need? And so for some people, working a 10-hour day and having a four-day week and then having three days off, that might be really tough to do that long. Maybe for some people, they'd rather work six days and just work six hours and to be able to kind of understand your own flow. Um, employers tend to be moving towards being more flexible with a lot of this if they know kind of the outcome that they're gonna get. Um, in a hiring environment where it's hard to get good quality staff, um, as long as you can articulate, okay, what are the key things that you want from this role? Okay, so here's my key things that you are hiring me to do beyond just being in a chair for 40 hours. Like, what is it actually that you care about? And then some employers, if they see that you're able to do those things in less than 40 hours, will still pay people for 40 hours. They may say, um, you can work from home. And there may be just kind of ways that you can adjust the role in a way that really can help you feel like your energy levels are best. And so it could be something like, you know, I know I need a two-hour lunch. If I have a two-hour lunch where I can decompress, I can jump into another four or five hours, or every hour I need a 10-minute break and I need to step outside, I need to read a book, I need to play video games, like whatever the thing is, that can then help you realize in your own body what you need. And then you can advocate for it because most employers are not going to advocate for you. And so being able to articulate, here's what I know helps me work best. Um, and then you may have an employer that says, we can't do that. So then you have different decisions to make. Like, I do I want to work there or do I not want to work there? Um, becomes your decision if you know yourself, present it to your employer, and they say, No, there's no way we can accommodate that.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah. And I I think uh when articulating those things, it's probably important to not just say, I need this, I need that, but to to phrase it, I am my most productive when I can filter out sounds by wearing headphones, or I am at my most productive in this two-hour block or after I've had a long lunch. I'm even thinking for some autistic folk, their solution might be Wednesday is a new Saturday. Maybe they can work two days and then two days, but they have to have a day off in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah. Um, I did that for a while where I took Wednesdays off um just because I wanted that break. And so I'd work Monday, Tuesday, take Wednesday off, and then Thursday, Friday, and it worked great. Um, so I think the idea of Thursday is a new Friday, is that what we're living now, this 40-hour week that's based on you know, five days on, two days off, is a construction that came out just about a hundred years ago in May 1926. That's when Henry Ford uh started the 40-hour work week at Ford, really with the idea of selling more cars to his own employees. Because he's like, you know, if they have the weekend, they're gonna you know get a car and want to get out of Detroit. And so this experiment is is less than 100 years old at this point. We're we're right on the cusp of it almost being a hundred. And so realizing that for most of human history, people didn't work like this, they worked in in seasonal cycles, they worked in farmers' schedules, um, they they worked in kind of what nature was giving them, and then it really wasn't until the industrial revolution and ultimately like a hundred years ago, that things really shifted into this idea of like an eight to five job. And so, if we say, okay, for you know, 40,000, 50,000 years, humans haven't lived like this. Why do I feel so off in this environment? Because your body still feels like a farmer, it doesn't feel like someone that should be under fake lights in a you know, fake room around fake things. Our bodies genuinely want to be outside, they want to be a part of the seasons, and so I think when autistic folks feel like things feel a little off, they're probably picking up on something that evolution has done, not something that is disorder or anything like that. It's our bodies genuinely are in a place that is foreign to us, it's different than what our bodies have evolved to be.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah, and uh when they when they think what's wrong with me that I can't do this, you know, five, eight-hour days in a row, it's not wrong with them. This is like a new idea that human beings are not built for.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah. I mean, I think it's similar to like if someone was colorblind and they worked at a crayon factory. It's like your body can't see colors in the same way as other people. Don't pick a job that you have to differentiate colors. So, you know, I think it's one of those things of really aligning who am I and doing that hard work that you know we all need to do of like who am I? What do I want in the world? What do I hope to have as my human experience while I'm here? And then finding the people that support that, finding the jobs that support that, finding the pace that supports that.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yes, and that's so important. Uh, I think for anybody, but you know, my focus is on autistic folk because uh employment is so challenging. Uh autistic people are drastically uh underemployed or unemployed.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Wendy, I love that point about you know people being underemployed. Um, I think right now what we're seeing is there is such an opportunity for autistic folks in the world of technology, like we just have so much access to people and places and ideas that we never would have had. And so one thing we often teach with practice of the practice is embrace your niche or your specialty. And I think if we extend that farther, we all have things that we're super into. Like if you are into unicorn dolls that are miniature and this, and you have this whole thing that maybe people in your community say, Well, that's weird. There are people like that in the world that want you around them, and there are businesses and there are opportunities, and there's entrepreneurship. Um, that if you had a podcast all about that one thing, or if you you know wrote blog posts or had a TikTok about it, um, there's so many ways that you can find 500 or a thousand people that just love what you do, and if you have a thousand people that give you a hundred bucks a year, uh you make a hundred grand. Like the math is pretty simple on that. And so to think about it's okay to embrace your weird or to embrace your differences or to embrace the things that you are so into. Um, and when you do that, what's unique is that it then creates something different in the world and it gives other people permission to do the same. And so I would say sometimes we we say yes, we're underemployed, but oftentimes we don't look at, well, that's based on the idea that other people need to hire you. And I mean, all the work that I do is helping people say, Yeah, I I can work for other people. That's fine. We all have different abilities, we have different needs, um, we need different support. Some folks definitely need to just be an employee, and maybe with some support or even without support, there may be things that you're really into that you could push out into the world and test and try to add additional revenue and really be just doing something that you enjoy and that you want to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

That is so important uh for all of us. But I think um, especially for our autistic listeners and those who are wondering if they might be autistic. Um, do you have any tips for uh any other tips for how they might present this to their employer that they might want to work a shorter week?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, so I think looking at like, is the job aligned with with working a shorter week? If you're an hourly employee and you work at whether it's a Walmart or somewhere else that it's like hourly, uh, it's really hard to say, I want to work a shorter week because then you just make less money. And so that's pretty difficult if you're in an hourly position. So then starting to look at, well, okay, if you're in that position and you want to work less, um, are there other things that you can do to build your skills? And so, kind of depending on what level of expertise we're talking about, if someone's you know, kind of newer to the job market, doing hourly work that you know, if you work less hours, you make less money, um, that's gonna be pretty difficult to do. There's different strategies we can talk about there. Say you're starting to get some, maybe you go to a community college for a year or two, maybe you get to have some skills, then saying, okay, what is the true outcome of this job? I talked about this earlier in the business world, we call it the KPI, the key performance indicator. And so saying, okay, so I'm saying helping with audio engineering, and you know, you've got your audio engineer here. Maybe there's you know some extra support that he needs um to say, okay, is the the job hourly or is it really outcome-based? And can we look at what are the outcomes that you want so that maybe you can work on these things at midnight on a Thursday when you know you're at your best, but most jobs aren't open. So then that's where we start to go into like what is the purpose of this job? And then realizing that there is a whole industry out there, there's multiple industries that want your specialties, and that's where I do think that kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall and starting to try some things that are side gigs or freelance things, um, to say, what if I tried something? You know, one thing that that I think um people that um that are looking for new opportunities, um, especially autistic folks, is looking at just different public environments. Um, there's things that I don't pick up on. I don't pick up on smells, noises, the brightness of lights, those sorts of things that really could make it be not just for autistic folks, but for anyone more calming, more soothing. I mean, think about like just I mean, my brain is going wild now. Like, think about the regular airport. Like, is that a calm experience? Do airlines maybe want a calmer experience? I mean, imagine if you were an airport consultant just looking at the ambiance there. So I think there's just like a lot of opportunities like that that really autistic folks are uniquely positioned as the experts in, and maybe they aren't really seeing their skills as being an expertise that biology has given them, that the who they are helps them be able to have the these focus areas.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

I think that's wonderful. There are so many of those things where um their sensory perceptions are valuable. Um also, I think um I just want to say again, if if you pick up this book or check it out, there will be a lot of research in it as well as the practical ideas. So if you need to talk to your employer, if you have the kind of job where you can negotiate that, use this for your research before you talk to them because it really has got a lot of important stuff in there. And speaking of Joe, the author, uh, do you have something uh new coming up that you want to share about? Uh often authors will be thinking about the next book. And if it's a secret, you don't have to tell us.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Well, I am um working uh with my writing coach on some ideas right now. We haven't landed on what that direction is, but I did just write a book called Dating After Betrayal. Um, you can just search for that online. Um, it's kind of my story of um going through a divorce and then rebuilding after that. And so for anyone that has been betrayed and then is rebuilding and trying to figure out how do I date in this world, how do I come out of the other side healthier, how do I work on myself? Um, dating after betrayal is a great resource for folks um to help them just um learn how to come out on the other side a little bit better and a little stronger and maybe not make the same type of mistakes maybe they made in previous relationships.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

That is great. I didn't realize it was already out. I'm gonna have to go get my copy. Yes, I love that. And in my history, as many of us have had at some point in our lives, you know, before I met my have labor after husband of being betrayed. Um, when I wrote dating while autistic, I looked at a lot of different aspects of dating. I did not go into that aspect at all. So um, if somebody has read Dating While Autistic and wants more about what was left out, definitely and say the title again for me.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah, dating after betrayal. And we can get you that link for the show notes and all that too.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Perfect. We'll put it in the show notes. Dating after betrayal. Because that's hard to deal with. Uh it's something many of us do live with, but um, there's better ways to do any hard thing than to just, you know, not know what's what.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, you know, and I think that it's interesting because in taking the time to write that book and process my thoughts and like look at like what was really helpful through that phase, um, it actually inspired me. Uh, I had sold my counseling practice back in 2019, but it inspired me to start a new counseling practice. And so Great Lakes Online Counseling, um, we've just launched that and we're taking new referrals and it's specifically for people post-divorce. And so um, whatever phase they're in post-divorce, it could be co-parenting, it could be grief, it could be dating again, it could be second marriages. Um, but the entire practice is online and it's specific to help people post-divorce.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Okay, we're definitely going to put a link to that in the show notes too. Um, anything else? Uh, if there's a question I didn't ask you that you wish I had, or if you have one more piece of advice before we say goodbye, what how would you do that?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah, I think I cover a ton of the neuroscience in the book um that I think can be really helpful for, you know, after you've slowed down, after you've like evaluated your body, understood your patterns, but you're like, now it's time to work. Um, I go through a bunch of different exercises, and probably my favorite one is one out of the University of Illinois. And they did something on um what's called vigilance decrement. So vigilance meaning how well you pay attention, decrement meaning that it breaks down over time. And so before this research, their focus was on okay, I get I spend all this energy, and then really it's going to be sleep that helps me bounce back. And tomorrow I'm a new person. And they wanted to look at is that true? And they did this really interesting experiment where they put people in front of a computer and they gave them a random four digit number. And uh they said, When your four digit number comes up on the computer, hit the button, and when it doesn't, um, just ignore it. And so For an hour they sat there, and all these numbers are coming through. Very boring task. And at the end of it, they had all experienced vigilance decrement, meaning they paid attention worse at the end of the study than they had at the beginning. Now, the second version of the study at the 20-minute mark, they gave them just a one-minute break where they say, Oh, you know, get up, we put you on the wrong computer. You couldn't go on your phone or watch TV or anything like that. But just move your body for you know a minute, we'll get you seated again. Did another 20 minutes, did a second one-minute break. Uh, they found that there was zero vigilance decrement after that hour. And so little things around neuroscience can be so helpful. In that situation, literally two one-minute breaks allowed people to do more in that same period of time. And I think when we look at the neuroscience, when we understand what it means to be autistic, when we understand our bodies, for you it might be every eight minutes. For another person, it might be every 24 minutes. But just starting to learn some of these things to say, I want to learn how to be more productive within my capabilities, within my strengths, with all within all of my things that are me, those things can really help us just challenge that we're stagnant people. I believe we all can grow, we all can move into new areas. And you know, the neuroscience I talk about in the book, or even neuroscience outside of that, really can help us all grow in a way that we can be the best version of ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I love that. And uh any of us can put like a reminder on our phone to every 20 minutes to just if you're at work, get up and go get a glass of water and walk back. One minute every 20 minutes, that's like nothing. That's not a break. I mean, your boss is not gonna think you're away from your computer if you're gone for one minute, but that it would have that much um uh change and that it's scientifically documented. That's that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here, Joe. I've really gotten a lot out of this conversation, and I'm gonna be putting those things, uh, the links in the show notes. And you know, go out and get his books because there's a lot of good in there.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Wasn't that amazing? Joe shared so much useful information about flexible working hours and how to approach your employer to ask for modifications to your schedule. Not only that, he has a new book out, Dating After Betrayal, a guided healing and re-entry experience. This is an important topic, and one that, frankly, I didn't cover in my book, Dating While Autistic. But most of us do experience a breakup at one point in our lives. And it's important to have tools to get past it and move on. This will be a useful one. It includes a checklist for the five signs that you're ready to date again, a dating life planner to help you navigate new connections with clarity, and affirmation wallpapers for daily encouragement and grounding. You can find links to Joe's books, his website, his counseling practice, and his podcast in the show notes. I hope you'll check them out. Thank you for listening to this episode of Amplifying Autism. I'm Wendell Whitcombarsh. Looking forward to next time. You've been listening to Amplifying Autism, celebrating the voices that shape a more understanding world. Don't miss the next episode. More stories, more insight, and more voices that matter.