EPISODE 10: ROSEMARY'S BABY

You might think that our podcast has an easy job rooting out the true villains in a film all about Satanists, and featuring the devil himself, but this is Kim & Em Vs EVIL! We dig a lot deeper then the surface 'evil' presented in our favourite genre films to root out hidden baddies, too! Rosemary's Baby is a key film in cinema history for many reasons real, fictional, and in terms of legacy and cultural impact. Not only do we talk sex with Satan but we also delve into the trivia behind the film – as well as the movie's notorious curse. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to the latest episode of Kim and M versus Evil with your hosts Kim, that's me, and M. That's me. As we attempt to take screen villains to task and understand the root of evil in movies and more. Yes, sometimes we do series too. We've done the beauty fairly recently. Right. Well, this episode we turn our attention to the devil himself. Sometimes in movies he's symbolic and in life. But in this case, he's very real. Or at least he appears in some kind of corporeal or certainly visualized form on the screen, at least. But that doesn't matter. Whether he is, in fact, real or imagined, that is for you to decide, or us in this instance, because that's what we're talking about. That's what we're here today to do. Yes, we're taking on a big hitter this week. And it is Rosemary's Baby.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

We love Rosemary's Baby. And we just uh introduced it. Any Hastings listeners or viewers? We do like the locals as well. We uh Kim and I introduced Rosemary's Baby uh just a couple of weeks ago, three weeks ago, um, at our regular event Fright Night, which is at the Electric Palace in Hastings. Come down to that if you haven't, because we we kind of do almost like a very, very, very mini-pod, like 10-minute intro. Um, and it went down really well. Even got a few titters, I mean laughs. A few laughs by fit titty knots. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Well, there are some buggy old lady tits in this. And there's some little pucky ones in the dream sequence. Yeah. I don't know if they were mere pharaohs. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

She body doubled. I think she had to, I think she did everything. I think I'd I'd have to double check that. And you get dangly balls if you look glosseless. I didn't see dangly balls. I need to go back. Well, there's all the old naked. We've already gone on to the naked, scary, horrific naked dream stroke reel stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Why did they take all their clothes off?

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Well, that's what you do. I mean, they do you know what? This was really echoed in um hereditary, and I almost see hereditary as quite well, influenced at least. It just looks really rude in like a sort of dogging scenario to me.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

It feels satanic, especially when they're um imperfect bodies. I'm doing, for those who aren't watching, I'm doing the quote marks because there are no imperfect bodies. We're all perfect. Yeah. But you know, that the the stray from the mainstream idea of of beautiful nudity, we see it as quite strange and unhinged, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah, I guess it's just adding to the pagan element, because that's you know, that's what us pagans do. Nude. Right. Where are we?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Well, whenever, whenever, back to back to the kind of the intro, I suppose, but whenever anyone asks me um to name a perfect film, I always trot out Rosemary's Baby. I think it's almost faultless. I mean, I I don't know why I've put the almost in, I think it is faultless. Um it's just a perfect film in all ways. So I won't we'll we'll go into it, I guess, and you'll decide. But um tell us about Rosemary's Baby's credentials and its cultural importance.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Well, it's very culturally important. Um, and let's just get into sort of the who's and the where's and the what's and all of that. So, as most of us know, um, directed by Roman Polanski, who I love. We'll go into him later with the controversy. It was directed in 1968, uh, and it is frequently ranked among the best horror films of all time. Um, and of course, it's at Kim's top of the list, so it must be good. Um, so it makes like top 10, top 25 lists. In fact, The Guardian ranked it as second place, like best horror of all time, um, with only Psycho beating it to that number one slot, another 60s film. I'm not gonna argue with that. I can't argue too much, um, but it's a difficult, I don't think it's I mean, how do you decide the best horror of the time? This is the point. Some people say the excesses. They're both great. Yeah. Um, the film went on uh to earn Polanski an Oscar nomination and Ruth Gordon, one of the actresses, an Oscar Wynn for uh the supporting actress for her portrayal of the off-kilter brilliantly wonderfully weird neighbour Minnie Castavet.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Oh, you you uh sorry to cut in, but you you mentioned Apartment 7A when we were planning to do this, which I hadn't seen before and you had, but I watched I watched half of it this morning, and I think it's Diane Diane Weist who plays the uh Ruth Gordon's Minnie Castavette role in that film. Yeah. But she's nowhere near I think she's trying to um yeah, kind of mirror that. Yeah, it feels like it, but it just doesn't capture it. I mean, it's really hard to because I can't I can't imagine anyone being able to pull that off. And I love Diane Weist, but um but yeah, I was like, oh, it doesn't feel like her.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

I thought she did quite a good job out of everyone because she's so nice in um Edward Scissorhands. Yeah. You got one, and another one.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Oh man. Bless you, or should I say hail Satan or something?

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Oh yeah, should I be throwing salt over my shoulder? What the fuck is that all about? When you sneeze, yeah. That is gonna happen. I can't keep that in. Yeah, when you sneeze, he throws salt over your sh left shoulder. Is it sneezing? What the hell has that got to do with the devil? Does he not like sneezing?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

But do you know that there's a yawning thing as well, which someone told me once if you someone's yawning, you poke your finger in their mouth. Oh, I do that to annoy my cat. Oh, it's supposed to stop the devil from coming out.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

I don't get that. Anyway, because you're tired.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

The devil is I don't know, but it stops.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

The devil makes work for idle hands. Maybe it's something to do with that. Like you're not allowed to be lazy, slow, lazy. I don't know. Maybe. Ah! We sorry about the sneeze interruption. I've got hay fever. Rosemary's baby is an absolute masterclass in psychological tension, building paranoia, and masterful suspense, exploring very dark themes, setting a contrasting, very bright, so dark themes, bright sunny New York. That's the point. And there's a little groovy juxtapositions in this, which but I think it's again that makes it rare. Not some horrors obviously have daylight, but this is like pretty much all of it, isn't it? It is, yeah. All very sunny.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

She wears yellow dresses and you know, colour. And she makes her apartment really bright. And I think Minnie Casavet, when she comes in, she she mentions how much it's brightened up.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Modern. It's all muddy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

But yeah, and and actually, you mentioned um hereditary. Um, another of uh Ariesta's films, Midsummer, is is all in bright sunlight as well. So which which makes this film makes me think of of that.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yes, and I think there is something about uh that sort of even sunshine itself and the idea of heat can be oppressive, like claustrophobic and oppressive, and I think that links in with how Rosemary feels.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yeah, yes, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I might be. It's your turn.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Oh, sorry. I said, though, I watched um you know, folk horror, like the classic folk horrors. I watched a blood um on Satan's Claw the other day, and I'm and of course Wicker Man, and there's a lot of sunlight in both of those as well, which is is really eerie. Um, maybe because it's not done that often. Maybe that's why, but um anyway, it's uh frightening. Right, so it uh so Rosemary's Baby is highly regarded as the cornerstone of satanic, urban, and psychological horror and works on different levels, crucially. It is a supernatural film with a satanic element, but it's also a study of the paranoia seen through the eyes of a pregnant woman trapped in her own home, a victim of extreme abuse and gaslighting from her own husband. Uh this was deliberate on the part of Polanski, who was an atheist famously, and didn't want to make an entirely literal film about the devil.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Of course, it is adapted from the Ira Levin book, um which you were telling me, Em, is very true to the very like famously, very, very um faithful to the book, um, possibly down to you know the words and and everything. But I think that was because Roman Polanski at the time wasn't sure of like the the rules. I'm sure I read that it was he thought it had to be like almost word perfect, and it ended up being a four-hour film on the first cut. Four hours. So it had to be very cut, be amazing if you can see an extended cut of that. I don't know. I'll look into it. Be good if we could.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

I would like to see that, but uh uh the film also marked a real shift in the genre on screen, taking horror from a focus on gothic monsters to leaning more into psychological terror rooted in uh modern everyday life. The film, uh, as we were saying, is a rare example of being true to the novel. Um, who also wrote the superb Stepford Wives, of which you're a big fan, but you know, he is clearly Ira Levin, uh wonderful male feminist.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

He is, and obviously you can see very similar themes going on in terms of uh of course feminist issues that were like going everywhere in the 60s, um, the control of women and women's bodies, their autonomy over their bodies, groovy themes. Um shall we have a quick synopsis, really quick, because most people know the film.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Um then if you're here, we are full of spoilers anyway.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Yeah, I'll do it quickly. Um the film follows Rosemary, played by Mia Farrow, and her husband's moved to a New York apartment. But when Rosemary finds herself pregnant, she begins to suspect her increasingly controlling neighbours are not the kind people they pretend to be and have nefarious plans for both her and her baby. But who can she really trust? Dun dun dun. Is it all in her mind? Is she getting paranoid? Is she just, you know, pregnant and like losing it a bit? I don't know. I think I think it's quite early on where you know there's something satanic going on. But maybe, maybe not. Um because because the the dream sequence is real, but it's sort of it is portrayed as a dream.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Yeah, and well, she uh she And that's early on. She is um she is uh it's implied that she's been drugged by the chocolate mouse. The chocolate the chocolate moose dessert Minnie Cassavette brings around. Chocolate mouse. And um Guy is really encouraging her, coercing her, because he's a narcissist and he's abusive, coercing her into um eating it. So she does eat some of it and then she's like she throws the rest away, but she's obviously uh had enough to knock her out, at least partially, because she is seemingly semi-conscious through it. And then when you watch the dream sequence, which I watched again this morning, so it's fresh in my mind. Um he the uh images of Guy interchange with images of the devil. She sees her husband's eyes and then she sees the devil's eyes. Um so you know maybe they're setting up ambiguity. Yeah, that well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Um so that we don't instantly think what you know, something weird's happening. And and dreams can be like that as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yeah, yes, that's yeah, and it's all weird because she she imagines that she's on a boat, doesn't she? So or dreams that she's on a boat. So it is kind of this dream um uh uh imagery uh seemingly interspersed with what's really going on when they all get naked, and then the devil I mean, if this is if this is real and it isn't just a drug-induced hallucination.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

But you're right, because when um she wakes up, and this is we should discuss this later when we're talking about sort of um themes of feminism and women's rights, yeah, she wakes up and she's got scratches on her body, and um and Guy jokes, he says something like, Um, uh didn't promise to cut the fingernails or something. Yeah, I'll cut them now, sorry. And you're like, Oh my god, that's really grim and dark, and she does find it unsettling, but again, he it's so clever in terms of the script and the character and the actor. He says, I just didn't want to miss baby night, and she's kind of like she really wants the baby. Yeah, she really wants the baby, so I guess she lets it go. Yeah, although she is a little bit quite rightly concerned. Yeah, and so that he had sex with her while she was unconscious.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Kind of kind of um explores her PTSD from this rank. Anyway, we'll we'll we will get into that.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

So I guess it is sort of ambiguous. Okay, um we've obviously I think I've said this. Uh Miriam Farrow is in the lead role of Rosemary Woodhouse. We're very much experiencing the film from um her perspective, her journey, um accompanying her uh through this horrible kind of downward spiral. Um, we've got John Cassavetis, plays her complicit husband, Guy Woodhouse, a somewhat struggling actor who literally trades his firstborn with the devil in exchange for fame and success in acting. Um, while there are also roles for Charles Grodin as Dr. Hill and Ralph Bellamy as Dr. Saperstein, or Stein Sapperstein, both actors with comedy chops, which helps add to the strange off-beat tone of the film. There are the odd moments of hilarity or just some funny moments.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah. Well, should we do some trivia before we get further into talking about uh the themes? You like your trivia. Yeah. Yeah, we'll do some trivia. Some trivia.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

There's well, there's loads in the trivial.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

I don't know, it's kind of set up the villain discussion that we will have, I think. So um I always love finding out who was in the running for for like famous roles before they actually finalise the cast. And um it's almost always jarring. Sometimes you can imagine it, but um anyway, I'll take you through Rosemary's Baby, is especially interesting, I think, because Robert Redford was first choice for Guy Woodhouse, supposedly, which I cannot imagine because I mean to me, Robert Redford is all American, he seems like a good guy. Um, I can't think of many kind of villainous roles that he plays.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

But he's supposed to be that at first, you're supposed to think that.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I don't think you are because John Casavetis brings this this real kind of narcissistic energy to the role from the start. He's quite sleazy. Yeah, he's not nice to her ever. He's so self-centered, and she says that in the film. Yeah. She explains it away with like, well, that's that's like all actors. That's actors.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Is that what she's like, you are a bit self-centered, I suppose. Yeah, that's like you know, you have to internalize everything and you know, all that jazz.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

So Robert Redford was first choice, but they also now you might think this is a is a good uh would have been a good casting choice, but Jack Nicholson was considered. Um, but apparently Polanski felt he was too demonic. Um he does have those pointy eyebrows, but he would go on to play Satan, of course, in The Witches of Eastwick, and then also Jack Torrance in The Shining, who has more than a bit of the um because he looks demonic and he has that look, he has that look. So yeah, he got his go at um satanic type roles. Uh other choices included Robert Wagner, I can't imagine that. Richard Chamberlain, again, kind of Robert Redford vibes, James Fox, Lawrence Harvey. Um, and yeah, and as I said, of course, it ended up going to actor and director John Cassavetti's. Um he wasn't that famous, was he? No, but it it feels like a real kind of um left field piece of casting, but oh my god, I can't imagine anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Well, when you nail it, when you nail it and you own it, that's that's when the performance you can't, you just can't imagine anyone else doing it.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

But uh Roman Polanski apparently hated working with him, even though they were kind of um kind of on friendly terms beforehand.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

I think he actually says, I think he actually says he was a prick. I'm sure something like I think it's that word, but like in an interview on set, because he John Castovets likes to improvise and do all these like things that are unpredictable, and Roman Polanski is the absolute opposite where everything is controlled, and there's like you know, a hundred takes or whatever, and it's exhausting.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

So you can't go off script or anything like that, and he yeah, so it was like two complete opposites.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

But lots of directors are like that. In fact, I'm not gonna bang on about it, but from an actor point of view, when I mean the this the the film ran at four hours. This is without your actors going off script. If you've got an actor, say you've got a scene to do, right? Yeah. Little acting class, and there are beats in that scene, and it is all quite timed in a way, a bit like comedy. There are there's there's a rhythm to it and there's a flow. And if you do have some, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but like an actor going, going off on one, it means fucking hell. This scene is now five minutes too long. I don't know where my edit points are. My other actor isn't quite sure what to do. So, yes, sometimes it can work, and sometimes it is an absolute nightmare for the editor.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

I mean, does it does it help to kind of stipulate in advance? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely no improvisation because and explain the reasons why we've got all these people that uh that are relying on you to stick to the script and blah blah blah. Maybe that maybe that doesn't land with a lot of actors.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah, and there are loads of situations where they say, Okay, you can roll with this, maybe it's a row or something like that. And so, yeah, there are there are ways of working around it. Anywho, back to the casting.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Um you do the next one because I'll do the next one.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Uh well, Mia Farrow, as much as she frigging owns this as well, um, was not the first choice for Rosemary. Polanski wanted Tuesday Weld. I actually don't know who that is. He considered to be an all-American actress. Um, but Mia Farrow was famous- Oh no, sorry. Um Tuesday Weld was famously married to Dudley Moore.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

So if you don't know who she is, you know her famous husband.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Because Mia Farrow was uh famously married to the first sort of big star, pop star, Frank Sinatra. So I don't know why that is important, but I guess it just gave the film clout or more money, maybe, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

But it ended up being awful.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Is this part of the curse?

SPEAKER_01 20:04

We'll come to the curse, but it it I see, I don't count that that the that divorce as a curse, but it's part of the bad news.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

So we should explain now. Well, because we because but so so while she was working on Rosemary's baby, um, Frank Sinatra was making a film called The Detective, which funnily enough is a prequel to Die Hard. And Frank Sinatra, I've I've written a book on Die Hard, if you didn't know. Um she knows her stuff. Frank Sinatra was was originally going to be John McClain in Die Hard, they offered it to him first and he turned it down. Um anyway, so this film, The Detective, which which also starred Jacqueline Bizzett, who I used to live next door to. Where was I going with this? Frank Sinatra. So they were married, and and she um Mia Farrow was supposed to have a small role in the detective. And because, as we talked about Roma Polanski and his directing style, the production went on longer than it should have, which held uh Mia Farrow up. Um, and it meant that she she kind of couldn't fit in going over to do this role in the detective. And um Frank Frank was like, if you don't come and do this, um that's it, we're finished. And um she said, Well, I'm not leaving this. People have told her apparently she was gonna win an Oscar for this role, and um, so she chose to stay on set, rightly so.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

And he served her with divorce papers on set, yeah, via via a lawyer, but yeah, someone I think I'm not gonna say stormed on, I wasn't there, but a lawyer would have rather dramatically, I'm imagining, went on to set, but this is kind of in front of everyone, your cast and your crew, and um served the divorce papers, which again is very controlling and mean and nasty. And she went on to marry Woody Allen, so I think there are problems there as well, weren't there?

SPEAKER_00 21:55

I'm not gonna get into that.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Oh god, so we've got legendary horror. Maestro and B movie man. I'm respecting William Castle more and more the more I learn. He has a cameo as the man by the payphone. What is that the one? Yeah, towards listening. Towards the end, he's trying to get on the phone. Oh, right, not the one sort of overhearing and spying on her. There's one where there's two, isn't there? Yeah, and there's one where he's actually sort of saying, hurry up. But I don't even know if we've said William Castle was absolute Paramount. Paramount being the uh they're the actual uh distribution distribution, produce production house, distribution. Um they're the studio involved. Um but without William Castle, this might not have happened because he read the book. He bought the rights to the book, he wanted to direct the film, and Paramount said Paramount said no, you're not good enough. So a bit of a blow.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

As bluntly as that, or do you think they shook a coach in it?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

I don't know. I mean he stayed on as producer, but he wanted to direct, and he instead ended up just being manned by payphone. But anyway, and and and producing.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah, well, I think he it was the right decision, it's a classic. So Roman did good. All right, uh oh, Tony Curtis has an uncredited voice role as Donald Baumgart. I say uncredited, but if you look on IMDB, you'll see his name listed. I don't know if that counts as an official credit, but he's there. Um, just on the phone. Um, he is the actor that the cast of Curse to Go Blind, so the guy can get the leading part in the play, as he does his deal with the devil and offers up um Rosemary's body for the birth of the Antichrists.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah, and that's his first kind of foray into success because the actor playing the role that he wanted m magically, strangely went blind overnight, and that wasn't questioned. Just can't work.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

I don't know. I see part of me was like, well, can he really not do the role? Maybe he can still do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Well, then we haven't got a film, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

No, true. Um and also the devil was pulling strings right, so he would have made it puppet master fall into place.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

We don't need to go into that. That might be in the four-hour cut, though. Sorry. Um, and the lovely Sharon Tate also has an uncredited role as party guest. Um, but we've both sort of really viewed this and we can't find her.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

There were a couple of blonde women or a handful of blonde women in the background, and uh but it's not noticeable that any of them are Sharon Tate.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

No, but again, because the first cut was four hours long, maybe she is there, but just not in the version we're seeing. Sharon Tate, as we know, um married Roman Polanski in January of 1968, and she would die in August 1969, which is just a year, and let's now get on to the the the curse. The curse of Rosemary's baby.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

It seems like a good time to touch on that now because we've mentioned it and just kind of leads into that.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

People love a film curse. I think the famous ones are Exorcist and maybe Superman and Poltergeist. There might be so there's probably loads more out there. Um, but this one really does have a sort of a lot of life imitating art moments. Well, not just moments, like murders and deaths and things. Okay. Yeah, go on then. Alright. Uh so yeah, the lore, tragedy, and continued Continued, that's not a word, eh? Continued.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Continued. Oh god, I was watching a recently where there's a Romanian character and he said Solved. He's speaking in English, he's a detective, and he said, I uh something along the lines of I have solved the case. The case eh.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Maybe well, it sounds like proper English. Continued English. Um there where there's continued controversy surrounding the film. Um I I'm kind of talking about Roman Polanski and everything that happened to him afterwards as well. But anyway, um that has kept Rosemary's Baby kind of uh as a huge talking point and very significant, albeit a sinister addition to our cultural landscape. I mean, you know, Roman Polanski stuff, as we'll get into, is still being spoken about today. It's still relevant. Yes. I won't say why. Well, you probably hold. Well, he can't go back to America, still can't go back. Yeah. Um, it is chilling the a prime example of life imitating art. So the film is about a satanic cult who used Rosemary to be the vessel for Satan's child. But after the credits roll, cut to Roman Polanski. He is married to Sharon Tate, a blossoming film star herself. She also finds herself pregnant in real life at the tender age of 26, we're presuming to Roman. It's just one year after the film's release. Polanski's career is taking off due to the movie success success, a bit like Guy's career takes off after he impregnates um Rosemary. So, yeah, everything's going really well for Roman until in his own house on the horrific night of the 9th of August 1969.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

I mean, I wasn't born. Not 1969.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Um, so Sharon Tate, uh, brace yourself with this if you're sensitive, um, is brutally murdered by Charlie Manson and his followers um in a very specific ritualistic bloodbath, and she was over eight months pregnant. That is, I know it's a horrible, shocking image, and I don't like to think about it. I'm not gonna go into loads of details there. You can find out more um about what really happened online. It's horrible, it is really horrible. Um, I think they used her blood to write something on the wall and and stuff like that. Um, so I mean that tragedy just one year later, a satanic cult killing her and ripping um is it's just too many parallels to be to be ignored. So whether she was targeted because of the film, which I don't know what Charlie Manson said about that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

But yeah, I mean, and that's been covered on on film itself, hasn't it? That incident.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So And it must have affected Roman. I don't know if he if he's spoken about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

I don't know. God. Someone tell us, someone tell us what he might have said about it. Um, so other um other elements of the curse, there was producer illness. Uh, I mean, that's we didn't just have a cold. Producer William Castle received death threats, maybe, maybe linked or maybe not, but um uh suff suffered a severe kidney stone infection where he was heard screaming deliriously, Rosemary, for God's sake, drop the knife. I didn't I didn't enunciate that as well as I should have done, but I should have acted that out better. But but this is real life. So um, and he was actually the one who claimed the film was cursed, and and that by making a film about the birthing of Satan's son, this is what brought supernatural powers onto Earth.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Maybe, maybe not. That's what he meant. Um I think this one is more freaky. Uh, the composer's tragedy. Um, so the film composer is um uh Kazistov Comida.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Oh he's credited as Christopher.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

He is, but I think that was the um to Americanise it, I guess. Yeah. Now he died after suffering um a brain injury from a fall. So apparently he fell off a cliff in mysterious circumstances, and I don't know why he's just he fell. He went into a coma um and he was only 37 years old. And this is something else I I found out as a bit of an added weird fact, and I I I don't know the sources on this. He only woke once, he woke up once from the coma, and that is when somebody played him Rosemary's lullaby.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Oh my god! Tingles. What the hell? Who would have done that?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Who did that? Well, I think because music can get you out of a coma.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Because he'd composed it.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah. And he did, he did sort of wake and then he died. So it's kind of oh, and it's such a good, I don't want to say good tune, but you know what I mean? It's a really good piece of um composing, it's so chilling. Um, a good bit of trivia here as well is that um Mia Farrow does all the na na na na na na na na na I love that. I'm gonna play that to my baby when I have a baby. Yeah. We know that typical horror mum. Um, yeah, and I think that I didn't know she sung it, but it makes sense now. It has like you can hear her, you can sort of hear that little sort of vulnerable voice.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah, I mean, she's perfect, isn't she? Right, so the film was shot at the Dakota building in NYC, or or at least um there's a shot of it at the beginning, isn't there, of the film, like this overview. Um, well, that is the location, uh, or it later would become the site of John Lennon's assassination in 1980.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Well, all the external shots, yeah, yeah, were that building. Um and the lead actress incident, uh, Mia Farrow apparently reported um she received the news of her brother's death in a plane crash, uh, which was during the production. So while they were filming, her brother died in a plane crash, which I don't know. I've only heard I've I haven't seen that as a bit of um a bit of curse um curse law in in in all the writings. So I I I haven't followed up that fact, but yeah, that reminded me.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

But yeah, but and also I mean as one as one person, one woman working on one film over however many months it took to shoot, she got these divorce papers. Divorce papers, dead brother. Yes, and and she didn't get an Oscar, she did not. So, right, okay, moving on from the curse. Um we have spent far too long talking about yeah, we've got a crack. But this one this piece of trivia could be relayed. Oh no, we talked about that, Frank's in artwork. Rosemary's baby's due date. Oh, you probably know this, maybe you don't know this, but um, it was June 1966 or 666. Of course, you've got to get that in.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

666 the number of the devil. Um, poor old William Castle mortgaged his home to acquire the rights to the novel. That's how much he was uh he kind of made it happen and put his heart and soul into it. Um he wanted to direct. Uh, it was Robert Evans of Paramount who only greenlit the project if Castle didn't did not direct, due to his reputation of a director of quite low-budget boo movies like The Tingler and House on Haunted Hill. Yeah. Utterly different to uh Rosemary's Baby. Um we've got more. Oh, I quite like that one.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Yeah, let's go to that one then. The National Catholic Office for Motion Pictures. Uh what? There's a National Catholic Office for Motion Pictures. I mean, there must be in America at that time. Okay, there probably was because religion is still big. Catholicism, Christianity is still big in America, right? So they slapped it with a C rating, uh, meaning condemned. Which was reserved for films that were morally dangerous to watch.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

I don't mean I get I get that, but it's not as if it's selling Satanism. No, I know.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

It's bizarre, really, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Or is it?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Maybe it's like they're funny, they're fun people. Yeah, yeah. And they get naked and have shakesh parties. They do get sex fights with Satan and um and Roman Castavet, he's been everywhere, he's been all over the world. You name a place, he tell he tells them, he tells Rosemary and Guy when they first come over that night, name a place, I've been there. So he's well travelled, lots of stories. And I think Guy even says he's got so many stories, I want to learn more.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

That's why I'm going back tomorrow night. Satanism looks fun, man. Yeah. Um, the writer Ear Eleven said in an interview um uh after the film that he actually felt a bit guilty for writing Rosemary's Baby because of its profound effect um on people and uh sort of the cultural landscape and the film landscape. I mean, I don't think he should feel guilty, but anyway, um it led to the exorcist and the omen, arguably, and a huge spike in just the fascination with all things occult and satanic. Because I don't think it had been dealt with before that film as well as Rosemary's Baby.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

No, so I'm sorry that it led to two more classics of American cinema. Well, exactly. I'm really sorry. We've got three classic movies out of this.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

I grow a pear ear 11.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

It's it was it's a good book, don't worry about it. Also, the omen is 50 this year. Is that the right? If I got the right one, it's not 60, is it? Is it 60? Wait, is it 60?

SPEAKER_01 35:19

I don't know, it can't be because Rosemary's baby is 60 years old, but in two years' time, because it was 1968.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

76, the omen, yeah. Carrie also is 76, so that's 50 this year.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Same as me. I'm a classic.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Classic.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Classic, a thoroughbred. Yes, I turned 50. Let's get on with it. Let's stop talking about it, all right.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

We're all everybody gets there if they're lucky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

So if they're lucky, yeah. Okay. Um, we have the Roman Polanski story as well, but it's um it's a controversial one. So there's another reason the film often comes up, I think, is because well, because of the death of Sharon Tate in grim circumstances, but also unfortunately, what Roman got up to um this is much earlier, isn't it? Oh no, afterwards. Sorry, yeah. So um, ooh, about 10 years later. Um, and I'm not going to trivialise it by saying Roman was a very naughty boy. Um, it's pretty serious stuff. So, how we shall shall we just get into it?

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yeah, and just um let's address the elephant in the road.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Read the uh facts, I suppose. Okay, facts, not opinions. Um important context. Roman Polanski, um, now 91, that's pretty impressively good. Um, is still a fugitive from the US justice system. He fled to France back in 1978, um, before he had sentencing due for the 1977 statutory rape of 13-year-old Samantha uh Geimer. I'm not sure if I'm saying that right. Um, after serving 42 days for psychiatric evaluation, he fled due to fears a judge would revoke his plea deal. And he remains under an international warrant. They recently settled a separate 1973 sexual assault lawsuit. So separate to the big one. I have also read, oh, this might be coming up, that Samantha has hasn't she actually not, she's not sort of gone back on it, but she's she's sort of saying don't arrest him or something. I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

She's I don't know. I don't haven't looked into it to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

And I know his Roman's current wife, who I adore, um, because she was in Bitter Moon, Emmanuel Senna, singer, um, stands by him. But by the by, she said because she, you know, she didn't know him at that time.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

She says she's she has urged the court to drop the case, apparently. That's Samantha, the third yeah, but the US uh uh has not done so, keeping the warrant for his arrest active.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

But apparently, um oh gosh, six charges. So a 13-year-old girl, I mean that's that's grim, that's very young. My daughter, you know, that's a year younger than my daughter. He faced six charges, um, including rape, and it was with the use of drugs. Oh my god, that's like the film. I know. There's echoes.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Echoes.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

So maybe this is part of the curse as well. Well, no, maybe. I mean, he did direct it, so I you know And he uh a feature he he could have had a 50-year sentence and he um he buggered off, he went to France. So is that cowardly? I guess it is. I mean but we can't judge. I do have a really important question though for you, unless you want to oh, there's some more here.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Um I'm just reading through the um he Polanski's made multiple attempts over the decades to have the case dismissed, which have always been rejected by the US courts. Um, and I think we've said everything else.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

I mean, in a way, I kind of admire the US courts for taking it super seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that was back then. I wonder if it's because Roman Polanski is like not American. I wonder if he'd be treated different. I don't know. I don't know, like they they really are making an example of him. Um in a good way. Okay, so with all of this in mind, Kim. Yes. Um specifically, I mean, looking at this case, the fact that Roman Polanski, with this horrible um accusation of rape, has made and gone on to make and continues to make films that we love. Um similar to, I guess, Michael Jackson and his music. Can you as a person separate the artist from the criminal?

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Um the smooth criminal. You mentioned. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Sorry, not okay, or the art can you separate the art from the from the person?

SPEAKER_00 39:53

I mean, I think it depends on it's a case-by-case basis. Um I think for me, and yes, I think we often should. I think there are so many there are so many um cases and occurrences that we know nothing about that if they were to come to light would probably kill almost all of the art that's been made m uh for us if we were to just um cancel it all.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Um I think it depends as well on the severity and also how good the art is. I personally do I do like Roman Polanski's films, and also I don't know if we know all the facts surrounding it, especially as Samantha has urged the court to drop the case.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

As plebs who are on the outside and only know what we read, totally agree with that. Um, but also, you know, it's an interesting insight, the art that they make into their psyche, I suppose. So whether where you stand morally is up to you.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

But it gets ridiculous when they start saying, I don't know if this is true, but like things like Roll Dahl has become controversial, everything's becoming controversial now.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

To run away from it and to hide it all and to bury it. I'm not sure that's that helpful always.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

No, I think that borders on censoring. And um however, with with someone like um Jimmy Saville, Jesus Christ, don't like him when you mean it's not rushing to watch back editions. No, no, no, the unforgivable.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

So we've got real life villains, real life villains associated with the film, but outside of the film itself. Uh Polanski perhaps being the biggest for Polanski himself, Casavetis, he he might say is the villain because of um uh how difficult he found it working with him. Uh and plus there are those that perpetrated acts related to the curse, whether human or supernatural. But let's move to those in the film itself. And who do we have?

SPEAKER_01 42:07

So we have Minnie and Roman, um, played by Ruth Gordon and Sidney Blackmer, um, respectively. Um we have the Doctor Saperstein. Ah, yeah, really, really slimy and played by Ralph Bailey. You don't need to read books. Yes, all of that horrible advice. Don't read books. Don't don't learn, don't get learned. Do my proper English. Um and uh Dr. Hill, Charles Grodin, who love Charles Grodin. Well, she trusts him at first and then he uh he what's the word? He I know he goes back on his word and she can't trust him afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

See, I don't know like whether whether he was always in the cult or they kind of approached him afterwards, or he was just genuinely thinking, oh my god, she's she's paranoid and she needs her husband. But they pulled him, they pulled the Caster Vets pulled her away from Dr. Hill towards Saperstein because to control the pregnancy. So but so I'm like, did they approach him independently after that? Yeah, that's the game on board. Anyway, just yeah. Um sorry.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Uh we also have the big one, the husband, Guy Woodhouse, um, played by John Castovetis. So similar to the actual Castervetes, the character's names. Um, and we have Satan himself, of course, uh bit of a villain, Satan. A bit of a villain. Um, do we count the little baby? Do we count baby Woodhouse? Poor thing with its weird eyes and we never see it.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

We have to imagine.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

Yeah, we have to. I tell you what, I'd love is if anyone can draw a picture of what they think. Yes, what does the baby look like? Because at first we know, what have you done to his eyes? We know the eyes are weird, and we have a flashback of Rosemary's weird devil rape scene where she sees. His eyes, so we can imagine. But then you've got these old ladies going, What about his hands and his feet? And you're like, What about his bloody hands and feet? They must be like hooves and hooves and claws or whatever. So yeah, draw a little picture, that'd be nice. Um, so yeah, I don't no, I don't blame baby.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Well, he does it does cause some trouble for Rosemary through her pregnancy. She's got a lot of pain with this creature inside her. So, you know, it does perpetrate something. Yeah, she she's very pale. Everyone keeps saying you're like chalk.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

We I know it's so insulting as well. Like as soon as she's been Rosemary. Yeah, again, oh my god, there's so much to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

And your haircut, Rosemary.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Well, Guy is quite mean as a so as a villain, he isn't he's the main villain, right? Right, I think I'm gonna just put it out there quickly. I think um the husband guy is the main villain, even though he starts out as a very affable character and they are, you know, they do seem like they're in love. You know, Rosemary supports him all the time, doesn't she? She does, she does. You know, she backs him up and his acting, she's proud of him.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

She runs to him when he comes through the door, she's like, Oh my god, she's perfect wifey.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Yeah, she is perfect wifey, and some might argue.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

He's quite dismissive.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

As a character, she's too nice and she's too much of a doormat, but that is her character, you know. That's and I and you know, when you're pregnant and it was the 60s, you do feel vulnerable, you do want a bit of like looking after and protecting, and that is her character. Um, although she's, you know, you do want her to get she gets balls by the end. Um, but the husband is completely complicit very early on. He's willing to sell up Rosemary and his child, his own child, and just sort of brushes over the fact when I don't even know where to start with him, when she actually does um give birth. I'm jumping ahead a bit. This is such a betrayal. Um, and at first they say the baby's fine, the baby's fine, and then um she wakes up after a drug indo induced state, and she's like, I want to see my baby, quite rightly. And she's being kept in this little room away from him. And then the doctor and guy comes in and they just say we couldn't save it. Well, you wanted to go to you know, this doctor and everything, more gaslighting, like trying to blame her for the loss, apparent loss of the baby. And um, the husband just says, We can try again, we can just do it again, or something. He says that at some point, and it's like, oh my god, lie after lie after lie. But I think even you know, even when she has her trendy haircut from Videl Sassoon for real, he's like, That's the worst thing you ever did.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Um yeah, mind you, so does so does Hutch say say that it's not a great haircut, I think.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

I mean, to be fair, I did quite like her with long hair, and I think the haircut though, it I think that might have been a sort of character decision because it makes her look it. I mean it's quite a boyish cut, but it makes her look more childlike and more skeletal and more thin, and I think that's what it's accentuating.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

From from um from a from her perspective as a character, I think it's her attempt to try and claw back some uh element of control and um you know independence, and this is my decision.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Um yeah, I guess it is you know, it was she's because she's lost control with and she's battling with feminism, maybe, because you know, this was the the the late 60s, so feminism was um uh what's the word I'm looking for? It's just sort of starting to erupt and and come out, and she's almost straddling it because she starts out with very feminine with pigtails, yeah, and very sort of kind of womanly and girly, and then she kind of goes for this completely dramatic crop haircut because it is the fashion of the time, and women were allowed to become a bit more boyish, perhaps. Um, and she's battling with that because she's losing you're right, she's losing so much, and the only time she does claw back some um not autonomy but being able to be herself is when she she throws a party, she's so sick of being surrounded by old people in the Dakota building. No, they call it the Bam Bramford, don't they? Bamford Bamford or something. Bamford something like Bramford. Yeah, it's not called the Dakota Building in the film. Um, and she says, Yeah, it's a great party. You have to be under 60 to get in or something.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Well, we're told at the beginning the trench sisters would kill and eat babies. Yes. And uh they talk early on about um uh God, what's his name? Adrian. What's the surname? I was talking about Stephen and Adrian, because Roman Castavet's real name is Stephen Marcata. Adrian Marcata, his dad, was in the building practicing witchcraft. The trench sisters were killing and eating babies. We learned this very early on. Anyway, it's a it's a cursed building. Hutch tells um Rosemary all about this and Guy, and they they kind of laugh it off and say, Oh, yeah, all buildings, all apartment buildings have their fair share of they all have witches and stuff going on. Satan worship, right? So so one of the major sources of evil in the film is the patriarchy, which is what we're kind of implying here, right? With the control of the woman and the taking away of her autonomy around pregnancy. Um, and I think what the film has to say is still startlingly relevant 50 years on. Nearly 60. Nearly 60, with conversations around women and how they're seen and treated, expected to behave, and whether they're allowed to have autonomy over their bodies or not, still swirling around.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

And there's a lot of mansplaining in it from the doctors, which is so annoying. Like you don't want to do this, you don't want to read books, and you should be feeling this, and you shouldn't be feeling this, and you should be, you know, throwing up and not losing weight, and all of this um yeah, mansplaining is all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Oh, the pain will be gone in two days. Yeah, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

And it takes her friends, it's only when she is quite sad. Um, when her during that party, it's her best friends realize how down she really is, and she can't cope. And um, and again, this is what how gaslighting works. They're like, how you have been in pain for three months or something. What the fuck? Yeah, it's like what that's not normal. That's not normal. No one's done anything, they're just brushing that under the carpet. And um, Guy is almost trying to get in the door because he's like, I don't want her talking to these free-thinking women. Um, yeah, and they're the only ones that let her that's when she breaks down and cries. She holds it together the rest of the time.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

So, I mean, there's a couple of well, there's a several themes going on here. So there's the patriarchy thing, overarching thing, right? And then we've got the abusive husband, and you can read all of the events as as her experience at the hands of an abusive narcissistic husband, you know, and that drug-induced hallucination that she has, and the the rape by him. The stroke devil, but you can read it as him having raped her while she was unconscious, um, and then having a baby in those circumstances and her feelings around being pregnant with um her husband's baby after having been raped by him. We talked about um marital rape a little bit before we started recording and how it was um not a thing in those days. In 1968, it was legal, it became illegal.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

You were gonna Yeah, I was gonna say so. Marital um obviously um yeah, different marital rape we're talking about. Um it wasn't like okay, it was but it was just frowned upon, and it was only made an actual crime recognised by you know the law courts uh in England 1991. Oh my god. And in America followed in 1993, Scotland, 1989, so they uh they um beat us to it a little bit. Um so I'm not saying before then it was absolutely fine, but that was when it was it wasn't illegal, it was sort of considered well you can't really take a a husband to court because you're married. It's and so it it's just that expectation. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

But so so and she she had he'd been if you read it as him, the husband guy, having raped her, she wakes up with the scratches on her body, and um, so he's been quite rough with her as well um as simply I'm doing quote marks again, having sex with her while she was unconscious or semi-conscious. Um so and she's really confused about it when she and she points out that it was it was not cool that they could that they could have waited. It wasn't the only split second she says that it had to happen because they were trying for a baby. They could have waited until the morning or that evening. Um, and he he kind of um he makes a joke about it being fun in a necrophile sort of way. No, it's so wrong, and that he should have cut his nails, or I'll cut my nails next time. Is that fun? Would you describe that as fun? Most of you couldn't. No, no, no, not waking up with scratch marks. I mean he's a necrophilia type thing. He's kind of he kind of um frames it as a kind of a joke, but it's not.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yeah, of course, it's yeah, it's it's grim. Um, but he's obviously trying to cover the the Satanists tracks, and that's what they all do so well, though, throughout the whole film. Is they I want to talk about um a little bit about um the Satanists. I mean, obviously they're villainous, they are the um antagonists, I guess. Um, but I still really like them because they are so pure about their beliefs. Like, I don't know how long they've been Satanists. Um a long time.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Well, Romans. Probably a long time. His dad was. Yeah, his his um oh what's his word?

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Adrian, Stephen and Adrian Macato have been like running the the witch hood for quite a while. Um, but yeah, they're they're kind of really into their beliefs, and like at the end, they're like Satan will come down and he will rock things up and set fire to the world, and yay! They're really into it. That's their religion. Um, but you know, they haven't given anyone up to to do such heinous acts. They haven't sold someone's body, he hasn't sold his wife's body or anything to Satan, as far as we know, mini. And we and and I think they are likable characters because they're so funny. Her makeup and her accent and her how nosy she is. I mean, they just plunk themselves down when they come round to her apartment and start knitting straight away, all these little moments.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

I'm not sure how um how involved physically they were in Terry's death at the beginning. You know who kills herself, who they have, because they've tried to use her as the vessel for Satan's child. But I think they say at some point in the film that um, oh, the mistake we made was talking to her about it and thinking that she would be okay with it because she wasn't okay with it. And now she's fucking dead on the street, having apparently killed herself, pinning a very brief suicide note to the window or sticking it to the window. But so I don't know exactly what went down there, who killed her, whether she did kill herself, we don't know. But um is that is that made clear in Apartment 7A?

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Because that's about it is you see how it how I don't want to spoil it, but yeah, that that is answered. No, I don't know the end of 7A.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

If that's someone's interpretation of it.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

So, really, the end of 7A, I think, is kind of feeding into when the girl um the beginning of Rosemary's Baby. So it's good like that. I I don't know why everyone bitches about the film. It's got it's a really good director as well. I've forgotten what else he did now, but really good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

So so there is that, and there's a question mark over how involved they were in her actual in the harm that that um came to her. Um but yes, they are really likable. I love I I I mean, obviously, you know, Ruth Gordon won the Oscar and she's great as Minnie, and you just you just love her as much as well more than you hate. You don't hate her at all. Um but Roman, Sidney, what's his name? Blackma, the actor who played Roman. I love him as well. He's kind of unsung in this film. I was talking to you about um before we started recording, about the uh the when they when Guy and um Rosemary first come over to theirs for dinner and um he makes the vodka blushes, the cocktails, and he's like, Oh, I've made these so many times. Um but they're I've I've made them too full, it's too full. But he brings these glasses of uh cocktails over and he says, They're very popular in Australia. I can't do I wish I could do the way he says it. You probably can't oh no, I can't do him, I don't think. And then he's and then this is the point where he's all like, You name a place, I've been there, and she mocks that later on, funnily enough, Rosemary.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Oh, uh at the very end when he starts saying something and she goes, Shut up, you're in you're in Delaware, I don't hear you, or something like that. Not Delaware, but some she says, I don't hear you, you're in a different country, and she sort of reclaims her power. Yeah, um, so yeah, clearly, I mean, I always say the best villains, even I mean, so so they are villainous, let's be honest. I'm just saying they're not the the the the key uh I would say guy is worse. To me, main villain, then uh maybe Minnie and um uh John. Um Roman, oh my name's names all over the place because I made a note about them on the doctor, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

Yeah, but all of those um members of the satanic cult are just propping up the pillars of um they're believing patriarchy. No, well, the patriarch in the in the context of the themes of the film. Um whereas whereas Guy is uh is an actual perpetrator if you read it as him well he is abusive, he is abusive.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

His is purely selfish reasons, yeah. He doesn't give a shit about he's not like oh I love Satan and I believe in everything. He doesn't know anything about Satanism, he just wants to land these Hollywood worlds.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

He's selfish and wants to be a successful.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Whereas they actually have these passionate beliefs about Satan should be ruling the world, maybe they're right, you know. It's such an yeah, it's a bit of an anti-religion film. I want to talk about only because um well also time, but I think um a really key theme uh in the film, which isn't really anything to do with evil or villainy um or occult themes or Satanism or anything, but it can you can um view the film uh almost purely as a pregnancy paranoia film, um, in the same way that I suppose you can look at alien and yes, it's a sci-fi, it's an action, but you can look at the pregnancy element of it, that idea that something is growing inside you, you don't know what it is, you don't know what it looks like. Um all the suffering that goes with it. I mean, in Rosemary's case, it's almost the opposite. She's not like uh vomiting and and gaining weight and big old ankles and all that sort of thing. She's losing weight, but I guess because um this demonic child is literally sucking the life out of her. But actually, you know, that kind of is true of um, you know, someone who's been through um two pregnancies, of course, you're exhausted. It they they burn so the energy involved in in pregnancy is is insane, and um and I think also the idea of being isolated. So, yes, Rosemary is isolated and made to feel isolated um by everyone's manipulation of her because they want her to that they they need to control this pregnancy, but actually being pregnant is an isolating experience as as well. Um, because there's loads of things you can't do, you can't join in on things you can't drink, you can't you have to really watch what you do, you have to be healthy, so you have to control yourself to a certain extent. Um, and yeah, I think for me, um, one of the key scenes, which I don't know if other I'm sure it's been touched on before, is at the very end. Um, where it's all it so there's two moments, right, that are really important. One when she takes control of the room, she finds out that her baby is still alive, he's in this black cot. I think there's a woman with a pig on a sofa, which is quite a funny touch. Oh, yeah. Little pet pig. They're probably gonna feed the baby with pet with the pig or something or eat the pig. Um, and she goes over and she's so curious, and she she pulls back the sheets, but the whole time, obviously, the camera is just on her face, and she does this incredible expression which just t tells you everything. And then that famous line, what have you done to his eyes? Roman says he has his father's eyes. Again, it's almost a slight comedic moment because they're making real light of everything. It's almost like having a nightmare, like a or a weird dream where why is everyone just being normal? He's he's got like black red eyes or something, and she goes, Guy's eyes look nothing like that. And they're like, It's the eyes of Satan. But it's so so at first she's horrified by the baby, like, what have I made? What's happened to me? And she's like, No, no, no, and then she sits down, she's rocking. Um, you know, she's very traumatized, and then this funny old biddy, I don't know her character's name, she's actually quite funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

Or uh something anyway, doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

Um, she's like, baby's crying, Satan spawns crying, um, and she's really rocking the um cot really violently and hard and too fast. And Rosemary's maternal instinct kicks in, which I think to me is one of the is such a key theme that not many people talk about. And she looks over and she's like, You're rocking him too fast. And um she sort of starts to walk over, and she's the the woman, the old woman rocking this poor baby to death. Um, she's like, get away from here, make her sit down, Roman, make her sit down, and like and and he and he's the one that says, uh-uh. You move on, let Rosemary take over. Let Rosemary just get involved here. She's the mother, you know, we should respect her. Um, and I love this ending because then you see Rosemary's eyes soften, and she suddenly, I think, accepts this baby and accepts this role, and um it says, you know, it speaks volumes on that maternal instinct and like whatever you give birth to, even if you know it's Satan's spawn, or say, well, I don't know, Hitler, it's like, but it's my son. Yeah, it's my son. Yeah, sorry. I'm and and I think you're left with the idea that she in the film at least, you've got something else to say about this, which is very important. In the film at least, I think you're left thinking she is actually going to be involved in bringing Satan out.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

Yeah, so I mean, I totally agree. I read it exactly the same way as you, and I just wanted to read. This is this is what that was really long. No, it wasn't. I just wanted to, it wasn't, it was really good. I just wanted to read what I wrote uh about it. But um uh so you were talking about the camera being on her face, and so you see, for me, or I see, um, Rosemary remembering the rape and looking into the cot, she sees both evil and beauty at once, and she's torn between her feelings of motherly nurture and rejection of the evil that conceived it, whether you read that as Satan having raped her or her husband having raped her. Um, but ultimately I think the resolution in the film is ambiguous, but the feeling that we're left with, you and I, uh maybe the rest of you, is that she in the end accepts the role of mother, driven by both a motherly instinct and I think crucially also an inability to reject or overcome the entrenched patriarchal ideology that positions women in a certain way, um, forces women into certain roles.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

Yeah, I would say the instinct was take is taking over there. But you or what you said something very interesting about the book, the one the book follows, sorry, the film follows the book to a T, except this crucial ending, which completely changes the direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Yes, so um apparently neither of us have read the book, but the um the book is more clear on this moment, and and it's a moment where she is buying time, so she's kind of pretending to have accepted the child while she allows herself time to figure out what her next move is. Um, and that isn't what happens at the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:49

And that's more empowering to her, that'd be more of a feminist reading.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

That's more era then, that's more era leaving.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

Yeah, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

I mean, I think both are powerful. Both have powerful comments to make on motherhood. Oh, what about religion as a villain?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

Oh, do you want to go to talk about religion? So she so Rosemary is a lapsed Catholic.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

Um as a character and an actor. Yeah. Mia Farrow was brought up Catholic, and she was apparently dreading her lot seeing her getting raped by the devil being naked in on a film.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

Well, and as we know, or or or as we've already talked about, um, director Ramon Pelaski was an atheist. Um, so you can read the incident as a kind of self-flagellation compounded by the perceived punishment of God. During the feverish rape experience, we and Rosemary catch a glimpse of Michelangelo's painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, the creation of Adam. And Rosemary in the dream sequence is seen asking the Pope for forgiveness. Um this works with the film's literal interpretation that she's raped by Satan himself and is calling on God for mercy at a time when she is weakened by her lack of faith. But you can also read the incident as a nightmare that her mind has designed to punish herself, constructed out of her lapsed Catholicism. Ah, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:15

Interesting reading of the film. Um, there's probably loads more to delve into, but um for us, for Kim and M versus Evil for now, I think we're gonna wrap the pod up there. Really hope we've given you some um food for thought, maybe some different perspectives on the film. Always drop us a comment. Um, if you want to on our socials, Kim and M vs. Evil, I think, on uh Instagram. Yeah. Um let us know what you think, whether you think this film is well, number one possibly.

unknown 1:07:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

In horrors of all time.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Yeah, we've also got a Patreon now which we are getting to grips with. But um, if you fancy it, sign up to that for some additional content uh related and sometimes not related, but also some behind-the-scenes stuff. Um, but yeah, we don't always manage to lever in a quote about evil at the end of an episode, I don't think. But but there's a particularly good one from Rosemary's Baby that I'll leave you all with. Um so it does seem apt to say here God is dead, Satan lives.

unknown 1:08:23

Yay!

SPEAKER_00 1:08:25

Hail Satan.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

Um, as always, thank you for rousing yourself from your hallucinatory slumber. I hope nothing untoward happened to you guys um to spend time listening to us. So please like and subscribe and whatever it is you like to do. Um, and that's it from us. Uh there's gonna be another pod very soon. I want to tease it. Come on then, tease it. Shall I do a teaser? We're going down a little, we're having a little bit more fun and we're gonna start introducing more. What do you mean more fun? Well, more I know, is it possible? We're gonna go down the route of more kind of popcorn horror. Um, but I'm gonna call it I hate saying guilty pleasures, but we're gonna basically take it in turns to choose a lesser known, unsung hero of horror, or maybe an underrated horror, or a horror from our childhood that might not necessarily be as genius as Rosemary's baby. It might be total trash, but we don't care because we fucking loved it. Um, so I'm gonna be um uh basically heralding and saluting the uh joys of the 1986 film House in the next episode. Oh yeah. Those of you who are watching my DVD may see that DVD. So join us for that one. But in the meantime, stable, and I'm gonna go to the house.