Ocean Vuong's "On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous" with Logan Collin!

A beautiful, devastating letter from son to mother. One that she'll never read. Ocean Vuong is one of the most moving, impactful writers of today. Have you read any of his books?

Thanks for watching this episode of Pretty Well Read! Let us know what you think in the comments!

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Host: Mariah Moore
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mariah.l.m
Substack: https://mariahmoore.substack.com/
https://www.mariahmoore.com/ 

Guest: Logan Collin, owner: The Book Archive
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thebookarchive.ca/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebookarchive.ca
Shop at The Book Archive! Support local & Canadian: https://thebookarchive.ca

Music by: Daniel Callihoo
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielcallihoo

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Pretty Well Read. I'm your host, Mariah, and today we have a wonderful guest, a personal friend of mine, a business owner that I admire that everybody should go shop at, but we'll get into it briefly here. Um, everybody, please welcome Logan from the book archive. Yay!

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Hello, hello. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Of course. Thanks for being on. I kind of want to invest in uh like a stream deck so I can get applause noises for people.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

I support that. I'll I'll give you money for it. It's fine. I'll be your first sponsor.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

We'll get into the business side of things, but to backtrack a little, how did we meet? Logan, the standard question I always ask.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

We met, oh, we met ages ago. I don't even know how long ago we met. Like six, seven, oh years ago, maybe. Um, we met. We worked for indigo at the same time. You were a GM at one store, and I was a manager at one store. We never worked to like that closely together.

SPEAKER_06 1:13

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Like we just kind of like just like knew of each other in different spaces and like met during those times. I remember you came to one of our staff parties.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Oh yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Yeah. I was thinking about at first I came to help out with one of your auditions. It's like a group interview with indigo, and I came to like help you run the audition.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Oh, who knew?

SPEAKER_03 1:36

She's gone.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

She's gone. All I remember is karaoke.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Work. Yeah, yeah. And then during the pandemic, managers of all kinds were kind of helping out at each other's stores. And so remember me, you and Mark like had to figure out in-store like curbside pickup for Wem.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Oh, yeah. I do remember that. Oh, the dark ages. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

Truly.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Crazy.

SPEAKER_05 2:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Yeah. Truly crazy. Crazy times.

SPEAKER_05 2:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Um, but yes, that's how we met. We met through our we worked for the same company.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Yes, exactly. And we I'd I'd just like to put that out there that you know we don't stand indigo as we used to.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

You're not standing to go.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

No, not at all. But uh, it's just like anytime we reference. Disclaimer they saw. Anytime we referenced, yeah, J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter. I'm like, by the way, we don't love turfs in this house, but uh yeah, had to give them away. Um but yeah, that was a good time. So I know uh that uh that you've been a reader for forever, Logan, but I don't really know about how it started. What got you into reading? Were you always a reader?

SPEAKER_02 2:45

I would say I was always an on and off reader. I feel like like typical kids, you know, like our parents read to us growing up. Um, but I probably like fell in love with reading around like six to eight, like age six to eight. I read, I loved, loved like the Magic Treehouse series by like Mary Osbourne. Um, I was a Mary Osbourne stan. I had all the books. Um I remember like I don't even know, like this is like super surprising. I just had this memory yesterday that like it had like some sort of like subscription for that like series where like I was given like a book maybe once a month, once a quarter. I don't really know. Books just randomly showed up at the door. And I grew up in like a rural community, so like there was no like drop-off, so it just showed up, which was super cool. Um, and then like I read like a lot of like mystery and detective books and like goosebumps, you know, like the classics. Um, and then I feel like like between like ages like nine to like 18, you just kind of like fell off reading, right? You know, you're trying to fit in, reading wasn't exactly cool, especially like in a small community, right? Access to books was not existent, right? At the time there was like no Amazon, there was no bookstore in my town, right? Um, so I kind of fell out of it. And then as an adult, I started reading more again. Um, mostly nonfiction and memoirs, nothing like life-changing or life-enriching. It was really just like, you know, Tyler Oakley, Mindy Kaling. Just like YouTubers and like their memoirs and stuff. Like, just like filler, you know, probably didn't age well realistically.

unknown 4:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Um, yeah. And then now obviously I'm pretty much uh I read every day almost.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

So yeah. Nice. Hell yeah. I'm surprised to hear that you had such a break in reading. Like, I was like, oh, Logan's gonna be one of those people that didn't have a break in reading. But um, I understand, you know, that that different kind of phase and and nobody really does it, and then there's nobody reading around you, you don't have that representation, you don't gravitate toward it anymore. Um, the YouTuber books coming back. Thank you so much at Tyler Oakley for saving literacy.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Literally. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and like growing up, there was no, like we were like a TV family, right? So like the TV was always on. We ate with the TV on.

SPEAKER_06 5:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

There was no, like my parents weren't readers, my brother wasn't a reader. Um, interesting. So like, yeah, like you said, like there was no reading like happening in my life aside from like that really short age of like them reading to me. Um, and then growing up in like a real community, like there was a library in our school, obviously, like who went to the library? There was like no like library time, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Um, so just access was was an issue.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

Yeah, interesting. And so when you kind of got back into it, you just wanted some like non-fic tea, which I totally understand. And but when you did get back into it, were you like, holy shit, I forgot I loved this? Like, did you have like a oh yeah moment with it?

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Yeah, literally. It was like it was like that moment of like, oh yeah, I remember like I actually really enjoyed to read. Like I liked spending my time reading a book. Yeah. Um, and it was really interesting because like I was from like after like YouTubers and like Tyler Oakley was done, um, I really read a lot of contemporary literary fiction, which is like such a weird like jump into like literature. Because like literary fiction, as we know, is like super hard to process and like you know, um, like we'll talk about it later with this book, but like um, and I wasn't really like a romance reader or a fantasy reader, it was literally just literary fiction. If it was gay and sad, I was all about it. Um, so it's kind of an interesting way to jump in back into reading.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

I was so I was thinking like, oh, is he reading like Sally Rooney? But you're reading like Call Me by Your Name, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yeah. Yeah, I was reading Call Me by But Call Me by Your Name. Anything that was actually like gay and sad, I was all about it. Um I've read Sally Rooney, I don't hot take. I don't really get it.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Like that is a hot take.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

No, like what was like normal people? That is a hot take. I know. Normal people was like so boring for me. Oh and then like intermezzo. You know, intermezzo was fine.

SPEAKER_05 7:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

But it was like could have been shorter, could have been, should have been.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

That's so funny. Have you read um any Rainbow Roel books, Roel books? I read Carry On, which is essentially gay Harry Potter. It's like wild how close it is to gay Harry Potter. And you know, if you want to read something Harry Potter esque, not written by a turf, huge wreck. That's such a good book. It's so cute. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Yeah, I've heard so many things about it. Um, but no, I haven't read anything by Rainbow Roel. They're coming out with a new book.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

T Cherry Baby, Cherry Baby, I think it's called Cherry Baby, Cherry Something.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

So you're into the queer uh literary fic. Are is there like anything? Like, are there genres that you have been meaning to get into but haven't ventured yet? Or are you like I'm happy in my queer lit fic lane?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

No, actually, um, before the book archive, I was like literary fic till I die. Um but with doing TBA, I've been really intentional about reading outside of literary fiction. Okay. Um so I read I read almost every genre. Horror is probably like the only genre like I haven't really gotten into. Like I read a couple, but like or sci-fi. You know, I lied. I'm not a sci-fi girl. I'm not. I'm so sorry to the sci-fi people. I just like I just can't get into it, you know? It's just like too much. Hot take. But like, it's just like, you know, I you know, and I fuck with aliens, love them, can't wait for them to like take over the world.

SPEAKER_06 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Um, but like just like science in general just never clicked in my brain.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

No, I like appreciate it, uh, in terms of like I love the effort you put into this girl, but but I like don't care about the journey, but I like respect you for your craft. It's like how I feel about beer. Yeah, like I I don't drink beer and I can't fuck with beer, but I'm like, as an art of brewing, I'm like good for y'all.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Yeah. You you are doing something that a lot of people can't do.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

And that's something to be super proud of. I just I can't get into it. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I've also been trying to read a little more widely as well. So, horror, like you haven't gotten into it yet. Have you tried it? But a few books were amiss, or what did that look like?

SPEAKER_02 9:28

No, I just like something I just like don't gravitate towards, like just typically, which is surprising because I do like horror like films. I think like the last horror I read was maybe like Tenders the Flesh by Augustine Bestisteria, uh, which was like insane. I don't know if you've read it. No, no, it's like it's wild. It's such a wild book. It was like super popular on TikTok a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_06 9:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Um, rightfully so. I find that like a lot of like she's an Argentinian author. I find like a lot of Argentinian authors are so good at horror. Um just a sidebar, but I just haven't really like I don't know, found the one to like really pull me into it.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. I find there are a few authors who like their writing is so fast paced because when I read horror, I don't I don't want it to meander. I'm like, I want like if you're gonna thrill me, let's get to it. I don't want the plot to be um Grady Hendrick's books I really like, which is feels kind of basic of me, but what he wrote, um My Best Friend's Exorcism, which was great, and then The Southern Book Club's Guide to Slaying Vampires. It's so a lot of his horror books are like campy 80s hairspray, big hair, scream queens-ish. Like I I enjoy like the camp in that way of his books, and they're pretty like fast-paced. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah, yeah. I feel like a horror has to be fast-paced. Like I just like like you said, like I can't like just like there should be like no plot. There should just be horror. Yeah, murder and death, and like whatever horror is, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Yeah, not to be a gamer, but it should be pretty like R and G. It should be pretty like first person shooter, it should be pretty pretty like quick literally, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Yeah, that's so funny. Um, what would be an example? I've asked this to a few people now, but what would be an example of a five-star read to you? Or do you even rate your books?

SPEAKER_02 11:29

I do, I do. I'm pretty um five-star reads. I they're pretty easy to find for me. I don't like I feel like I don't read like books I know I'm not gonna like.

SPEAKER_06 11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Like I read pretty diversely, but I just I know what I like. So like it's always a four or a five. Five-star reads. Oh my god, there's like so many. I feel like I had a really good five-year read last year. Um, like Martyr by Kevin Ekbar was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

I would have given it a six. It's so good.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Absolutely. Yeah. Um, last year, The Emperor of Gladness by Ocean Vong was a six star for me. I devoured it, it was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Yeah. Oh, I'm glad you read it. Good.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Um, yeah. Um, A Little Life, hot take, but five star by Hani Yamakahari.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

You know, people hate it, people love it. I loved it.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

That's so good to hear. Specifically on that one. Like, I have to, I have to tangent on that one. The the the like controversy around that book and it being like too trauma porn-y, I can't stand that opinion. I'm like, like what a disservice that is to people who actually kind of have things like that happen to them. I'm like, how dare you like cheapen their lives and experiences into trauma porn? Sometimes these things just like happen to people. It's like I just think that opinion is a overblown to me.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Yeah, I think I think so too. And I think people just really run with like wherever trauma porn came from. Like whoever made that first review, I think people just have run with it without actually reading the story.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Um, you know, you can read it and you can hate everything about the book, but you have to like understand like this shit can happen to anyone. Unfortunately, it's happened to this one character, and we're just we're just reading it, right? Reading the ones.

SPEAKER_06 13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Um, it's such a good book.

SPEAKER_06 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

If you can handle like having your heart broken constantly.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

For 800 pages, yes, exactly. Like, still read the trigger warnings for sure.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Yeah, yeah. But if you if 800 pages is too much, they have a box set, which is broken into four volumes.

unknown 13:33

Do they? What?

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Uh they do. It's new last year in November. So you can read it by volume, so it's easier to digest.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

So okay, I didn't know that. That's awesome. That's probably selling like crazy for a lot of people who have like big book fear.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Oh, interesting. And uh, I think I already know the answer to this because I'm the same way. But how often would you say that you DNF books?

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Ooh, like never. DNS. I think probably in the last like six years, I've DNF'd maybe four to five books. Possibly.

unknown 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

I find that I don't DNF, I'll just either sometimes I'll put them back on the shelf, but I'll go back to them. They're like a not right now, but maybe later. Um there are some times that I just can't get into it, but it's not very often. I'll really will force myself to the power through because you never know, the ending might might save it.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And if it's also if it's that bad all the way through, then that's also a good story.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah, exactly. Right? You can bitch about it and complain about it later, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Yeah, you've earned it.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

But like I said earlier, I yeah, exactly. I've earned it. I read these 300, 400 pages. I earned a bitch about it later. Um, but like I said earlier, like I know what I like. So like it's not very often that I pick a book that I'm not gonna enjoy. Like, I don't really know how it's super possible for a lot of people to like always DNF books. Like, do you not know what you like?

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I've I've had one friend on the on the pod who DNFs left, right, and center. And I think that they they also read very widely and read a ton, but I think they just like are such a mood reader that they are like this doesn't suit it perfectly. And so they'll just like that's my like theory behind it as well. Like, she didn't explicitly say that, but I'm like, it must be because you read so much. But um, but yeah, that's fair. I'm with you.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

That's the point. Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Yeah, I wanted to talk about reading diversely and why it's so important. And I also want to talk about the business, but those two things go so hand in hand, Logan. Tell me about the book archive and uh how it started, how it came to be.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Yeah, okay. So the book archive is my business. Um, it's an online and pop-up indie bookstore based in Edmonton, but you know, shipping across Canada. Um, with like two main pillars, um, one being affordability and like accessibility. So like we have, you know, used books, bargain books, new books, etc., at different price points. Um, and that really goes back to like what I said earlier. I grew up in a rural community, so like books weren't accessible. So I try to make them as accessible as possible, especially to rural people. Um, and then the second part is that we champion diverse voices in stories. So most of our inventory is, you know, queer authors, black authors, brown authors, indigenous authors, disabled authors, um, etc. Um, and then it's really because representation is so important in media, in books, in literacy. Um, and it just the reason why it's so important, it just really opens the door, right? It opens the door, not for just for authors, right? Who are you know living these experiences and writing these experiences down for us, but it also opens the door into for us, into their lives, their histories, and it helps us like really see the world in a different light. Um, if you think right now, like in the world, it's pretty, it's pretty white, it's white dominated as it's been for like literally forever. And that's the problem, right? That's the problem that we're seeing. And there is obviously a literary literacy crisis in Canada, in the US, in the world, probably. And I think having more access to these books that are written by authors who don't look like you and I, who don't have the same experiences as you and I, is so so important.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Yeah, I love that. And and that's so fair. I think too um accessibility in terms of like proximity and location has gotten a little better, like with so many online ordering options, but supporting local and like and buying at a reasonable price is just like a cross section that's hard to come by now. Like I feel like a lot of readers love to support local, but but when the blocker to their next reader getting into reading is the book is$37.99, but you have pre-loved books on for$9.99. That could be the difference between falling in love with a new hobby or not. So it's like um, thank you for your service.

unknown 18:09

Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Anytime. Um, but yeah, I agree. And like access to books is easier now with like Amazon with one day shipping and stuff like that. But you're right, supporting local businesses, both book and otherwise, that money gets circulated back into the economy. Um, and it helps get more access to more things that aren't just book related, right? Versus just lying the pox of billionaires and millionaires.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Um, and I think that's also such an important note.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

Yeah. So after Indigo, like, were were you sitting on this idea for a long time, or was it like a specific event where you were like, you know what? I don't see this in the market, so I'm gonna be that spot in the market, or what did that look like?

SPEAKER_02 18:49

No, I think it was like always just a dream in the background, like always like you know, like you know, like when you're a child, you're like, I'm gonna be a chef and have a restaurant. Because like I love to eat food and I love those sort of things. Um, you had maybe had like a little kitchen set growing up, like little text thing. I did. Yeah, easy to but I think for like, yeah, exactly, right? Um, but for books, I always like wanted to work with books and be around books. That's obviously why I worked at Indigo at the time. Um, and when I left Indigo, there was like that huge gap in my life to not have such access to books anymore, you know, and not be able to like be around books and talk about books and you know, things like that. So that's really what made me take the jump. There's there's a lot of bookstores in Edmonton right now, right? Uh, and the scene in Edmonton's growing. That's why I wanted to do something like online and pop-up so I can have access to all of Canada versus just a niche sort of market.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Um, that's how kind of the book archive started.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Yeah, I love that. So yeah, and you don't have to think about like the overhead of a brick and mortar store, which is such a W.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Yeah. Yeah. For now, in the future, that obviously the goal is to have a brick and mortar. Um, but yeah, have being able to access so many different people. And I've met and like talked to so many people because of the book archive, um, which has been like a super great like blessing almost.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Um, which has been, yeah, super cool.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Yeah, that's awesome. That leads me to another question. I often ask about like engaging with bookish communities and whether people use like YouTube or TikTok or Reels or whatever that looks like. Um, but like how has engaging with the book community like shaped your business or like how or or even you as a reader?

SPEAKER_02 20:39

I think me as a reader, for sure, there's a lot more access to see who is a good person versus who's not a good person. Right? I think I don't know who to use an example. Let's use Sarah J. Mott because she's trending right now for her, you know, books coming out, books six and seven. She's an awful person, and that's just a fact, right? But I think, you know, and she uses, you know, she's a Zionist and she uses Brianna Taylor's murder as, you know, hey, by the way, that sucked, but here's my book cover. Yeah, you know, and that post-that's all an awful thing to do.

unknown 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

And that post is still up, and you know, she's had the chance to to right her wrongs in whatever way that's possible, but she hasn't. Um, but I think being a reader now in this year, and having access to so much social media, you have access to like that information. Whereas, like, you know, long time ago, a couple years ago, that wouldn't we wouldn't have had access to that and we would be supporting that, you know. So I think that's really what shaped me as a reader and like has shaped readers in this like online space, is you're able to like see the bad in people a bit easier than you were before. Which is like maybe cynical or something, but um, I don't want to support people who you know, go against my values.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Yeah, no, I think it's important to be informed and engaged with with the media you consume and support and encourage. Um and yeah, having kind of like the blanket pulled out from over our eyes is is huge. But from a business standpoint, have you connected with like people you've never thought you'd connect with or like your audience reaching so wide? And what does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah, I think I've reached out or not reached out, but like I've connected more with authors that I would have never heard of before who have like been super supportive with the book archive. There's one author that comes to mind. It's uh her name is KJ Aiello. She wrote a memoir about mental health and like her experience with mental health. It's a super great book. It's called The Monster in the Mirror. Everyone should read it. You learn so much. But beyond that, like we've become like acquaintances, close friends. Um and I would have never had that experience or like that person to like talk to if I need to without having TBA, which is super cool.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Aw, that is so sweet. That's amazing. The power of the internet. Yeah, because you weren't like in our indigo days you weren't like a posting everyday girly. But uh has that been like a big adjustment for you having to be on the social media grind? I already hate it.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Yeah, it's a lot and it's it's a lot because also you feel like you have to be on all the time, especially like being in the online business. You have to be like on all the time versus like maybe a brick and mortar doesn't need to be like an owner of a brick and mortar doesn't need to be. But I am always constantly having to grind and think of new ways to engage with people, with posts, you know, jump on trends, those sort of things while also being authentic to who I am, who T T BA is. So the grind is tough sometimes, but it's it's worth it in the end. Like it will be and is um but the grind is you know sometimes it grinds a little too hard. I need to take a break sometimes you can see there's a gap in social media. I'm also a full-time student so like it's just like just sometimes it's too much and that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Yeah yeah fair enough I forgot you were a student what are you taking marketing which like just goes right into it.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Sure. Yeah yeah that's very fitting good for you that's fun I hated academia thank you I can't wait for it yeah I can't wait for it to be done. One more year thank God yeah yeah that's exciting um but yeah fair enough I also just wanted to circle back I feel like I moved on from it too quickly about the note about like Sarah J. Mass and reading with people who align with your values. I haven't talked I don't think I've talked about it yet on the podcast but you know there are people who kind of draw that line in the sand and there are people who kind of go just like books are books. I just I don't think about the author which I think is like such a ignorant privileged musty take but I and I think that's why like reading diversely is so important too because like these Zionists, these awful people, these predators, these sex offenders, these TERFs are still pushed to the forefront of the market because of like their privilege and their whiteness um do you have like like not hard and fast rules but are there certain authors you won't like shelves or do you have like policies the book archive wise?

SPEAKER_02 25:25

I would say there's no like written policy like you know there's no like we only carry XYZ because of XYZ value. Yeah. We like obviously won't you know JK Rowling does not get a platform with us you know we've been pretty firm on that forever.

SPEAKER_06 25:41

Great.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

I think if people go against our values like my own personal values of being just a POS then you're not gonna get shelved. Like I have all the control. And there's times when I've like I've carried books like most recent was like KM Moranova. I don't know if you've heard about them and like their recent stuff.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

They wrote like dark romance military romance but recently like a couple months ago they you know they on threads called out an author a black author is especially and like it just like was out of left field it made no sense and like they really like shown light into who their character is we pulled their books immediately because like there's no time for that yeah there's no time for that shit especially like don't come for like an overly marginalized offer like don't bother yeah and you know like the impact for us to not carry them is like super small like we're not making you know millions but I think they're like don't be a piece of shit yeah and we'll carry your book right like yeah yeah yeah I could understand like well not understand but I could see like uh bookstores large or small being like well you know we're we're a business we need to make money we'll we'll put JK rolling at the top at the front of the store because we need to make a buck but I think like creating a safe space and and being staunch about those values and who you shelve is gonna keep loyalty longer because people can trust your business and trust that uh it'll align with what's important to them, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Yeah for sure. And there's like I I I get the idea of like I'm a small business so I need I need to have like people like JK Rowling and Sarah J. Mass to like make money. And I get that like I I get it in a sense like a business sense I understand.

SPEAKER_06 27:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

But you're right it doesn't really create a safe space for people. And there's like another author would be like TJ Clun who used the 60 scoop to you know inspire one of his books. And that's just like not cool just in general. So like why would I platform an author that goes so against what I believe in right it just like make it just like I can't wrap my head around it especially as a small business owner and then there's bookstores in the city who do that and I just like I just don't get how you can create a safe space and say you do create a safe space yeah when you do platform those authors so loudly yeah it's giving um I love everyone and I'm apolitical it's giving that in the worst way. Yeah and like this is not the time this is not the time to be like that.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

No no exactly um on a lighter note what what has been some of the uh best moments of of owning a a bookstore any like W milestones is it the pop-ups it's you know the pop-ups are pretty cool the pop-ups are a lot of work turns out um but having like the reoccurring people come to the pop-ups and be like oh I bought XYZ book from you like months ago I loved it I'm here again for another recommendation that like is such a cool feeling of like you trusted me enough to like give you a good book and for you to spend money on that book um to come back and ask for another one.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

That's been a W moment I think what else I think also another cool moment has been like partnering with there's another queer owned pop-up and online bookstore in the city, Elthwit Soup Books. And the owner is super cool. But yeah being able to partner with Caitlin the owner of that bookstore and we have this queer youth um book program where you can donate money to to us and we use that money to give books to queer people and queer youth specifically. So in the summer we got a bunch of donations and we partnered with Firefly Institute which is a queer camp for youth and donated a bunch of books to them which is like super fulfilling.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Yeah that's so sweet. I didn't know about that that's amazing um and yeah it's so nice to see the Edmonton literary scene explode in in recent years since I've left for sure that's amazing I'm actually coming back home side note uh next week and for the first time in two years and there's a few local bookstores that I want to stop by but um so like get your brick and mortar shop up and running Logan Dam. I know yeah one day maybe but there are there is so many cool bookstores in the city now yeah and policy yeah yeah any faves um I do have some faves I think Magpie Books is super cool I think they carry such cool books um the owners are super neat as well um there's Paper Birch which is in like the little Italy sort of area um okay they I think still mostly used books um but the again the owners are super cool they have a little cafe in there cute um and then porchlight books is new as well uh they opened a year ago uh they have similar books that we do like literary fiction um contemporary fiction um but just like really interesting books and I think that's super cool oh that's nice I have specific like plans already in the cow to see to go to Porchlight so I'm super excited that it comes with a glowing wreck.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Nice. And they're by they're by made by Marcus you can get ice cream they're by a Colombian you can get a coffee they're just like in such a good spot.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Yeah yeah they are I'm bringing my Quebec ass boyfriend for the first time so he's never been to Edmonton so I'm excited to show him the art and the culture is the art in the culture yes but um but awesome it was so nice to learn about uh your reading style and habits and your and your love for uh the media and the business um but if you're new to Pretty Well Read we deep dive into uh one of our guests' favorite books for sections two and three uh so we are talking this episode about on Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous by Ocean Vong as you've as you've seen by the title uh so we're gonna jump right into the no spoiler section and then the spoiler section will be at the very end so you can drop off or stay the whole time but uh let's get into it Q music awesome yeah thank you it's it's podcast magic but uh all right thanks for sticking with us we are into the On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous by Ocean Vong no spoiler section I'm gonna start by reading the back of the book so if you haven't checked out on Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous first of all where have you literally been and uh so yeah we'll get into it. On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous is a letter from a son to a mother who cannot read. Written when the speaker Little Dog was in his late twenties the letter unearths a family's history that began before he was born a history whose epicenter is rooted in Vietnam at once a witness to the fraught yet undeniable love between a single mother and her son it is also a brutally honest exploration of race, class, masculinity and our current American moment immersed as we are in addiction, violence and trauma, but undergirdled by compassion and tenderness the question of how to survive and how to make it a kind of joy powers one of the most important debut novels of many years and uh so true bestie one of the most important debut novels of many years.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yeah yeah and still I feel yeah it's funny it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

It's so yeah the it's funny how the back of the book said like of this American moment and that was in 2019 and like how relevant is that still yeah literally yeah but I always start out by asking uh like how you heard about the book Logan and and why did you pick it for the podcast?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Um how did I hear about this book? This is before like TikTok and stuff was like really big right um so I didn't really hear about it in the traditional sense that it wasn't like trending on TikTok it wasn't on Instagram or anything at that time um I really heard about it just because the cover was so cool. Um the cover just like sold it instantly to me and it was just in a bookstore. I was I think at work at Indigo honestly and it probably was like an alcove at the time and just like I just would always walk by the cover and walk by the book and I was like this book just like looks so cool and then reading synopsis like you just did like it's it just like sells it instantly and I think it's a really good reminder also because the book cover if you haven't looked at it is like so understated um but it just really sells it. And I think this is a really great reminder that covers sell books people. So have if you're an author and you're listening to this get a good cover. Yeah it sells a book.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

True like they say don't judge a book by a cover but we're gonna sorry we're gonna all the time every day yeah um I also wanted to talk about so without obviously getting into spoilers it's a letter written from son to mother who doesn't speak English and so it's kind of uh like a an ode to her or or a diary entry to her or like a a message to her that she'll never read. So it's kind of already going into it you know that it's just like therapeutic and cathartic for our narrator what it what did you think about the like letter format and the writing style um I think it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

I think reading it now um was so much more impactful than reading it then I think with the letter style um the story without getting into it like it does it's really fragmented right it's really shifts from from story to story to story with being a letter to his mother. And I think that's what makes the story so interesting and like so relatable almost because it's like as you write or type you're thinking of one thing and then you instantly think of something else. You guys start doing that. And I think that's how the story is kind of that's why it's fragment fragmented right he's talking about one thing and then it jumps to another story that he experienced and it's just like oh by the way this so I think I think the letter format is really interesting. I don't know how it would have changed if it wasn't yeah I think it I think it was necessary to be written like this honestly.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Yeah yeah I think so too well said I think um the kind of vignettes that ocean kind of places in front of us are so they're they're not they're fragmented but they're not that siloed like he'll mention like the monarchs in the first vignette but he'll tie that back into the end of the book. So there are themes that kind of run through these vignettes to kind of tie it together. But I think if if Little Dog our narrator was writing a letter to his mother it's not going to read like a perfect traditional plot right?

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Mm-hmm yeah exactly yeah yeah I think it's really interesting. I think also reading it now um without like getting too into it. So my mom actually passed away recently um sorry and I've been thinking about doing something similar to this to like grieve and I think that's I think we'll talk about it later maybe but I think this is his way to grieve with his mother um who's who's just who's still with us but also just with the language barrier right I think it's just it's his way to process his life.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Yeah absolutely I think you know it's hard to grieve someone while they're still alive but that doesn't mean you know when you have to you have to and I think this is a beautiful way for him to be able to do it. So like she can like know it exists but she doesn't need to know the intricacies of you know what was said or maybe she got it translated maybe she read it I don't know but I don't think so no I doubt it I don't think so either but um before Ocean uh was a novelist he was like a really successful poet. I think his most notable work is Night Sky with exit wounds. Um do you think that his career as a poet like lent itself to the book at all?

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Yeah I think I think it did it did lean lend itself to to the book for sure. I think it also maybe took away a little bit from the from the novel because it's people are gonna love it. People are gonna hate it because it's so poetic right um but if you if you didn't know that he was a poet and you were just an average stro reader picking this book up for the first time from the first page you can tell that this person knows story this person knows how to form a story this person knows how to form words in a way that can be short it could be a short sentence but like really packs the punch. I think that's what lends itself to the story. As a person who loves poetic like prose I think like Kava Ekbar is a really great example too who is also a poet and you can tell with martyr um I think it really lends to the story and like him as a storyteller which is yeah it's interesting because the Emperor of gladness is not like this at all which I think is really a testament to how he's changed as an author too.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

Yeah oh interesting I think so I've we've both read for readers out there or listeners out there sorry also readers but uh Logan and I have both read uh Unearth were really gorgeous twice at least and then we've also read Ocean's newest book The Emperor of gladness I think that I do see Emperor of gladness vibes a little bit in this one because I've when I came back into this book the second time I was like ah the ocean I'm familiar with I missed it here. It was nuts but I but I see what you mean it's it's not completely the same. I think too that if you're out there and you're like oh my god I can't read a novel by a poet like you're you're nervous about how accessible it's gonna be and how easy to it is to read know that it's beautiful but it's not like gonna take you on a metaphorical journey. You're gonna know what is going on. You don't have to worry about that. It's pretty like grounded in reality but it's beautiful in the way that it does it.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Yeah I would agree with that completely. I think also if you're and haven't read this book before just take your time with it too you don't need to rush through it. Like Mariah said like it he does walk you along the path from start to finish um and it's not it's super easy to consume. And I think that's what lends itself to his how he's so good at the craft.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

Yeah exactly like it takes a a true master to like you know make things easy for people to digest but like beautiful along the way you don't want it like too juvenile but he we really strikes a really artistic balance with it. Yeah. What do you think about the book being like semi or like straight up autobiographical?

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Yeah I think it's really interesting. I think it's really sad that it is autobiography in a sense like like the back says it talks a lot about you know masculinity and identity and immigration specifically is like such a big theme throughout this book. And I think that's super sad that this is the reality that a lot of immigrants face a lot of queer people face um but I think it really lends itself to the story again. I think without those glib experiences this book would not have been as successful as it was.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Yeah I think so too I'm with you. On that note about like what the book is and what it is in relation to ocean's real life um we're gonna watch a clip. How fun yay I don't know if you've seen this you might you might have but um doula peep has a has a book club as well and doula got to um interview ocean have you watched this video before I haven't watched this one no no or I didn't know he was on her podcast or whatever yeah yeah yeah yeah he was and I'm like I stand so hard good for doula peep I also I can't I can never call her doula I'd love to know how you describe this book is it autobiographical fiction is it like a therapeutic love letter you already a very successful poet you know when you wrote this so in some senses is it also a a long form poem?

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Well I think you know the more I talk to you the more I realize how much of my thinking is owed to music um and musicians constantly breaching genres um even in your own work but even you know going back to Michael Jackson, David Bowie, um James Brown, MGK I think it's much more fluid for musicians to breach new ground in genre whereas in contemporary uh literary circles it's much harder. You know you have to almost declare yourself oh now it's poetry now it's and a lot of that is the commerce where do we put this on a shelf in a bookstore right but I've always loved troubling these fixed ideas finding where they can be broken. And so I ventured into this novel as a poet I just had this belief that the tools that I learned in poetry can be used in the novel and maybe not make the novel better, but make them a different way to see the novel using the techniques of the poet, which is a lot of breaks, a lot of vignettes right um whereas the traditional novel writing workshop will tell you follow the protagonist through day to day, map out how they got here, the logistical bodily functions. And as a poet I knew that if I stop the scene and pick up another scene, the reader will be there just like in a song verse from verse, stanza to stanza, and then pattern making you know this is not so much of a linear plot as it is pattern very similar to the chorus or a refrain in a song or even orchestral music, you know, having that that that that refrain that returns the pieces the Backbone. So I orchestrated using this very, I don't know, I think to me, I wanted to be kind of like a troublemaker in all of these ideas and bring poetry to the novel rather than transform myself to fit the novel's taste. And you know, I got a lot of pushback. You know, when I was trying to sell it, a lot of editors told me, you have too many ideas in here. You have too many themes. You need to pick just the immigrant one because it's easier to sell. You got to take away the drug abuse, um, the opioid epidemic, take away the queer stuff, like narrow it down. You have too many endings at one point. And again, I just leaned on music and I said, in a way, this is an album.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

I love what Ocean said about the reader will be there. It's like we were saying, like, he's accessible, and as a reader, you can trust that he's gonna take you on a journey and you're not gonna like fall off. Um, would love to hear what you thought about uh people saying that this wouldn't bring him commercial success because it's like too complex. Do you have any any any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 45:08

I hear what he's saying about it. I think when this book, I'm assuming he was trying to sell this book maybe it when when it was it published, 2019, 2018, maybe. So he probably was trying to sell this book in you know, 16, 17 in the US about these these themes like immigration and drug addiction and masculinity and queer identity, which um are super important themes. But again, like there is a systemic issue, especially in the states. Um, and I think it would have been a super hard sell for a publisher to jump on it without taking the chance, because people, readers, you know, people who don't read too would see these themes by an Asian author and be like, write it off completely because of their, you know, their biases, their ignorance. Um, so I I do I do see what he's saying. I think even now in 2026, I think that same fear of being able to sell a novel like this would exist because we're kind of like, you know, like life's a circle and you kind of just like it just kind of keeps repeating itself. We're back, I feel like, to where that was back then. So I I do see, I do see his his fear in that.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Yeah, no, me too. I think too, um his ability to kind of break out of conventional plot structures and conventional like genre confines really didn't he's not the first person to do it, but in terms of like bringing that kind of book to the mainstream, I think he was definitely one of the pioneers. Um since then, I feel like a lot of people are into more like unconventionally written books. Um, also as a side note, in 2026, I think like unconventional plot structures is really gonna set people apart from like AI slop.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, absolutely. Are you are you oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

Are you seeing a lot of books uh that kind of defy like plot structures it like coming into stores or being released?

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Or um, yes and no. The one when you were just saying now, the one that came to mind was um if an Egyptian cannot speak English by Nor Naga, it's um I haven't read it, but the format of the book itself is very different. It like starts with like a QA and it's fictional.

SPEAKER_06 47:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Um, but it starts with like the first line being what the question is, and then an answer, whether it be short or long, about what that is, and then it jumps eventually into more narration and more like story building. But the question and answer is a part of the fictional part of the story, which is like just a weird format itself. Um, but I think it's probably rare still to see something like that being fragmented. Yeah. Um, people do like to experiment, but whether that be published, whether a publisher takes a chance on it, that's it's yeah, hard to say, right?

SPEAKER_03 48:13

True, yeah. Great point. Yeah, there's probably a lot of like behind the scenes creativity in terms of like structure and style going on, but a lot of these books don't see the light of day. Good call. Um, so this book, since its publication, has been banned on and off like throughout the states for at different times and places and reasons. Um, but what kind of impact do you think this book would have had? Like 17-year-old Logan, like what could this book have done for you at that time in your life?

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Yeah, I was thinking like, what could have it done? I think as a rural kid too, I think this book would have helped shape maybe my queer identity a bit more. Obviously, that is a big theme throughout this book. And with like without like spoiling it or getting like lost in it, I think a theme is being lost in identity, as we see with Little Dog, the narrator, and other characters when when it comes to that, not being able to like express themselves without hurting or disappointing others, especially Little Dog. I feel like I relate to completely, even still as a 31-year-old.

SPEAKER_06 49:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Um, but I think if I were to read this book as a rural farm kid at 17, 16, 18, even, um, I think my experiences maybe would have been a bit different. And I know I'm not probably not alone with that. I think that's how universal experience with any queer identity. Um, yeah. It's you know, I think it would be totally different.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's why it need, you know, obviously I don't need to tell you or the audience that I think it should stay in schools, but I think that's why it's important for like kids to read widely as early as possible because it's like, you know, we're so sheltered by the media, especially in the states, especially as of now. Um, so just you know, kids, read all the things, especially banned.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Yeah, kids and parents, like parents just need to try a little bit harder sometimes with getting their kids to read books like this, especially kids who are struggle with certain themes and elements of their of their lives.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

Yeah, exactly. Um, speaking of themes, I wanted to talk about some of the themes of this book, and a big one for me is about like resilience. I feel like little dog, you know, there's I won't get into the types of trauma, but there's a lot of trauma that's that crops up in his life from him or the people around him who he loves. Um, but he it's not to say that he doesn't like have down moments or suffer, but he just, you know, he tree he tracks forward and and continues to kind of move on with his life and do right by himself. Um what what are some of the other themes? We kind of talked about them a little bit for you, but what what are some of the standouts?

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Um yeah, I think resilience is a big one too. I think this book really talks a lot about like the immigration. Obviously, we know that, but like the American dream.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

That's a really big, like overarching theme, is the idea of the American dream, especially as an immigrant coming to America. Um, obviously there's more themes of like queerness and trauma and masculinity and identity. And there's like just like there is like Ocean said, there's a lot of themes in this book, but I think they're all so extremely relevant and needed to make this book what it is.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

I'm with you. I also, as an aside, I didn't put it in the brief because I just noticed it towards the end. But did you notice like similar ties between this book and Emperor of Gladness? Like uh it within like Little Dog and High's life.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

There's a point in The Emperor of Gladness, like spoiler alert, if you haven't read it yet, it's been out for a year. What are you waiting for? There's a point in the Emperor of Gladness where he mentions someone or something or his own life, like back in like rural, wherever they're from.

SPEAKER_06 52:05

Yeah, Hartford.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

Hartford, yeah. There's a there's a pinpoint mention of like that in the Emperor of Gladness, and it's related to like this book, which I think is so interesting.

SPEAKER_03 52:18

Yeah, me too. I know I noticed I'm sure there are a ton of like little Easter eggs like that because they're both kind of pulled from Ocean's life. But um, when he uh like little dog and Trevor are riding bikes, and little dog mentions Trevor's UPS jacket, and that's the jacket Hi is wearing a UPS jacket in the first scene of Emperor Gladness. I was like, the UPS jacket.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

I didn't even click until just now.

SPEAKER_03 52:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

Ocean's mind. Wow. Your mind, even.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

I you know, I you know how I do, I be reading. Um why do you think the book's success took off like it did? Is it the cover? Is it social media? What really propelled it into the stratosphere that it got pushed into?

SPEAKER_02 53:06

I think because it's relatable. And because it does cover so many different themes, you know, immigration, queerness, trauma, etc. I think for anyone, maybe not anyone, but like for most people, they are able to relate with little dog in a sense of you know, being an immigrant, um, being queer, but not really knowing how to be queer or what that even means for him. You know, identity, relationships, right? How they are good and bad. In this case, most of them aren't very good. Yeah. Um, I think that's probably why it's was successful, is because it is so relatable.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm with you. I think like that's a great point. Um, he like Ocean describes the most mundane everyday things so beautifully in a way that makes you go, oh yeah, it is like that. Whether he's describing like the blur of scenery, like driving the train, riding in a train passing by, or like a leaf on a road, or the way he describes something, and you go, Oh yeah, it for sure is exactly like that. It makes it immersive and it's kind of like a weird artistic way to kind of like save the cat in a sense, that writing technique to relate the little dog. Um, but yeah, very like artfully done. Save the cat writing technique on hard mode.

SPEAKER_04 54:34

Yeah, completely.

SPEAKER_03 54:35

I also wanted to talk about the future movie adaptation, and I'll just start out by saying, Logan, I'm scared. They're gonna wreck this. I'm scared.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

I'm so scared. I know they're gonna, they're gonna really fuck it up.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Um I am so nervous. However, like I did I did Google it like before we jumped on the call to see like where we where we're at with this movie, and there's like no headway. However, they do have a thing director who like did Euphoria, okay, which is like was decent, you know, okay. Artistically decent. So like maybe there's a chance. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 55:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

I'm yeah, like book act adaptations, like you know, sometimes they suck.

SPEAKER_03 55:17

They they do the book is always better than the movie. Um, so I think I would go into it with those kinds of expectations. But yeah, I when I was doing research and I saw Ocean mention it in an interview, and he was like honored to kind of like sell the movie rights. Um, I was I also was like, where are we at with that? And I saw that they did like open casting last year, and I was like, oh no. Scared.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

I know I'm so like curious. Like, there's so much in this story that like obviously can't all be in a movie. So they better not get rid of the good parts, you know. Yeah, the parts that are new, they better not get rid of. There's very like no artistic like movement from the book. Let's like just do the book.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Let me see the monarchs, let me like put in the scene with the monkey brain, and then we'll be good. Speaking of scenes though, I want to wrap this no spoiler section by asking you your favorite passage. If it is a spoiler though, we can bump it into the next section. Do you have a favorite passage?

SPEAKER_02 56:22

I don't think it is a spoiler. I do have a favorite like part. It's pretty early on, so mine too.

SPEAKER_03 56:29

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

It's on page four.

SPEAKER_03 56:30

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Mine's on that early. Okay, mine's like instant. Um, yeah, it's the first paragraph there. I'll read it out.

SPEAKER_06 56:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:39

Uh it says, I am writing because they told me to never start a sentence with because. But I wasn't trying to make a sentence. I was trying to break free because freedom, I'm told, is nothing but the distance between the hunter and its prey. And I think that's really sets the expectations of what the readers will expect in this book, especially with the last part, the hunter and its prey. I think that's like an overarching theme that we'll experience, like a reader will experience with reading this book.

SPEAKER_03 57:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I love that. There's so many quotes you can kind of like pull out, and they are it's just like swathed over the rest of the book. Like that the theme and the wording and what he means in the imagery. It comes back time and time again. That's a good one. Mine is also early, it's page 24, though. Um, it's when little dog is on the bus and he's being bullied by some school children. Um, he says, Fuck those kids. I know. He grabbed my shoulder and spun me to face him. Look at me when I'm talking to you. He was only nine, but had already mastered the dialect of damaged American fathers. The boys crowded around me, sensing entertainment. I could smell their fresh laundered clothes, the lavender and lilac and the softeners. And I love that part he says about the dialect of damaged American fathers. It really speaks to this like American moment, but also calling it a language, I think speaks to like the language barrier of the book and like communication with his mom and this ode to Trevor. I'm like, oh my god, there are so many languages being spoken that you don't even realize or register that they are. Um, and it's just it's like heartbreaking. I'm like this nine-year-old kid already fucked up from society.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

From society. And like, like we know, like hate is isn't, you know, born. No one's born to hate someone and hate being hateful is learnt, especially in the home. So I think it really adds to that language too. It's like this kid is hearing this from his father or his mother or whoever's in his life, and that's that's so sad, and that's like still so prevalent in day to day. Like, I can think even in my own life growing up, like that was just how people spoke, and that's just like not okay now.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

No, yeah. Oh my god, yeah. Small town Alberta represent it's awful. Yeah, yeah. Uh all right, and with that sunny note, we'll move into the third and last section of the podcast. We're gonna get into on earth, we're briefly gorgeous spoilers. So if you don't mind spoilers or if you've read the book, join us. And uh, if you don't want to hear any more, we'll see you in the next episode. But uh Q Music.

SPEAKER_05 59:23

Yay. Music.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

All right, getting into some spoilers here. I wanted to jump right in with something heavier. Rose, who the letter is to, Little Dog's mom, the abuse, she beats little dog, and like, but we still somehow root for Rose throughout the book. Like, you know, at least I did. And but why is that, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 59:51

Yeah, that's a good question. Like Rose on paper, we shouldn't like Rose. No, you know, I think Ocean does a really good job for making readers sit with like being uncomfortable with Rose and like the abuse she gives little dog, like both physically, mentally, emotionally. Like Rose is like not fit to be a mother. No, like really, you know. Um, but we also get insight from Lan, who is Rose's mother, little dog's grandmother, in Rose's or for Rose's life, like the trauma that Rose faced, yeah, like herself growing up, right? So it's just like Rose's violence is because of the trauma that Rose has faced. Um, which doesn't like excuse the cruelty, but it makes us understand why there's cruelty.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:45

Yeah, no, I'm with you. It kind of reminds me, like thinking about it just now, of the like damaged American father language. Like, had Rose been brought up differently and not had to learn about war or hate or violence, like, would things have been different for like her and her relationship with her son? Um, but yeah, I I I didn't think that she would be a complete victim. I think also making her a complex character kind of warrants this letter from her son. They had such a complicated relationship. And had she been the perfect mother, I don't think that this book would have been what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

Yeah, I agree completely. I think if she was what what everyone wants a mother to be, um, the story wouldn't have been what the story was, obviously. Um, I think also it talks about like generational trauma and like how that really falls into generation after generation after generation. Like we don't know, we know a little bit of Lance life before Lil Dog and like Rose, but like how has that like progressed throughout generations?

unknown 1:01:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:54

I think that's a really interesting piece to pull out too.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:58

Yeah, exactly. Like, I I don't think she's like the most perfectly you know spotless character morally, but I I don't think she's an unlikable character either. Would you say she's like unlikable at all or no?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

I would say she's unlikable because of her the abuse that she gives, little dog. Like we won't, we're not really rooting for well, we're rooting for Rose, but we're like we're not like team Rose, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:23

I think she's likable because yeah, I think she's likable because we kind of like we can see a mom trying, you know. She's we we get points of like her life at the nail salon and her trying to like just like make some money, right? We also get that scene with the woman with the amputated leg and like Rose being so kind to her. She took the hundred as she should. She took the money, but there's like likable moments that like Rose is just trying. She's trying to support little dog and Lan and her life, the American dream. But she just has, you know, so many skeletons in the closet that like really pulls away from that like ability too.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:06

Yeah, true. Yeah, skeletons in the closet is is accurate. Um, and yeah, I think at the end of the day, she's just human, which brings it back to like how relatable this is in so many aspects. Um, yeah. What do you think the significance of like little dog being unnamed is? Like, I know he's named, he's little dog, but like, like, do you think like I think that um not having his like human name ever revealed to us is it's an interesting like artistic choice. I'm not sure how I feel about it. If if it pulls me in more, if it makes me feel bad for him more, um, if it makes me curious. I'm I'm not sure. Do you have any thoughts on little dog being little dog?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

I think, yeah, like I'm I agree with you. Like, I don't really know how to feel about it. I do feel bad for him to not have like his human name, like the his birth name ever being said. Because there's like there's a lot of tender moments between like Lan and him, Rose and him, Trevor and him, that like would have warranted maybe like his birth name over little dog. Um I there is a point in the book where like they mentioned why little dog is little dog, like but I don't remember why. It's just like smaller, yeah. It's like almost like dehumanizing almost to be constantly referred to as little dog. But maybe it's more of a cultural thing that I just don't understand as a a cis white person from Canada.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:37

Yeah, fair. And it's you know, and some things aren't for us to get, which I think is you know things that white people should learn 101.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Yeah, literally. It's okay for us not to to get everything. We don't, we're not harborers of all knowledge in the world. Yeah, yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:57

Unbeknownst to many people, but yes, exactly. Um I wanted to talk also obviously about Trevor. There's so much to unpack with Trevor. Um, like they are both like Trevor and Little Dog are both queer. They're both obviously into each other, but they both obviously have had such different roads to discovering, accepting or not accepting their queerness. Like, what are your thoughts on like Trevor's traumas versus little dogs? They're so different.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

Yeah, they're total opposite characters, but they have similar trauma.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

In a sense, right? Like they are shaped by the same system, they're both in the same town, same system. The whole American dream thing again comes up. Um but they tackle their traumas differently. While we see little dog being like more resilient to his trauma and like putting on a good face, like trying to be the perfect boy. Trevor is the opposite, right? He he doesn't want to be perfect. He wants to be Trevor. He wants to be a kid who just like fucks up and is against the system, even though system's always pushing him down. Which I think is like super interesting on how they internalize each other's trauma together and separate.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

Yeah. Yeah. I think I that's yeah, it's a great point. I think too, it it was interesting to understand that they struggled with like different trajectories of their queerness, different moments in like their realization. Like I don't had I didn't have the impression that little dog struggled with self-acceptance in his queerness. Like he was just kind of like, Mom, I like boys, and he just always kind of like knew it, but he he was never like, ah, do I? Whereas Tre Trevor was like, Do you think you're gonna like men forever? And he's he would say things like I'm not an F slur and stuff like that, where he he kind of like struggled more mentally to accept it in himself, um, which I thought was really interesting because you know, Little Dog is more focused on like the aftermath of what that means and the ripple effect of his life. But but Trevor was kind of stopped before he even got started with his queer journey because he couldn't self-accept it, which is sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

Yeah, it's super sad. I think that talks a little bit more about like Trevor with his fight with masculinity, right? He always seemed that like it you see it in one of the sex scenes, like when they're trying sex, right? That like Trevor wanted to be the bottom right in this sense, and like he just couldn't, like he couldn't do it because it is seen as too feminine, you know, too gay. Um, whereas for little dog, that was kind of the expectation was little dog's not masculine in any sense, and he's more feminine, as we see, he's more emotional, he's more down-to-earth, you know, has all those more feminine qualities, and Trevor just could never get over that barrier for himself.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

Yeah, yeah. Were you surprised by like Trevor's like having struggled with his masculinity so much? Were you surprised by his moments of tenderness or no?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:08

Yeah, I was like you see it in like the final sex scene, right? Jumping ahead a little bit for a brief. Do you see it in this final sex scene where they they finally try to have real sex, like actual intercourse, yeah. Um and you know, life happens, you know, when not to talk about the birds and the beast, but like life happens, um, and Trevor, instead of like shaming little dog, which you would expect because again, masculinity and all of Trevor's own trauma, um, instead of really lashing out and being violent or you know making little dog feel bad, he makes him feel better, which I think is like interesting. It's a really testament to their own relationship, too, that there was care there, that Trevor did care about Little Dog. Obviously, we know he did um in other scenes in the book, but I think that's really paints the picture of who Trevor was like deep down, that he wasn't just this broken kid, broken by the system, broken by his father, that he did care about others as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:18

Right, exactly. Which the more the deeper you read into the book, I think makes more sense. But in initially, when it was like Trevor is set up to like, you know, it's it's this trailer park with this dad who he fucking hates, and you you think he's just gonna be like mad at the world and and like violence or nothing. Um, but when they're like first doing stuff and first like kind of like sexually experimenting, and Trevor would say things like, I don't know, maybe this was the end, but he just moments of like, if this hurts, we can stop, or if you're not into it, we can stop, and just kind of like moments of care and consent and stuff like that. I th I was like, oh, that's so nice. Because he in another book, he do it totally could have gone into like a little life territory and been like an awful rape scene, but it was like really tender and sweet, which I think um, you know, he's just like a dynamic character that you really root for throughout the novel, right? Oh, oh Trevor. Um, I was going to ask you about uh Land's buff being a buffer between little dog and rose. I'm still going to, but while we're on the Trevor train, I'd like to keep Trevor going. But uh, if that's okay with you. Um, so the the the letter that that this book is kind of around, a little dog writing to his mother, is so intimate when he gets into parts with Trevor. And like, is that something it it's in those kind of moments, you're like, oh, this isn't something you'd actually want your mother to read, right? Or like how do you feel about it kind of shifting into an ode to Trevor at times?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:53

I think I think it's really interesting because I agree, like, there's things in here that you would never want like your mother to know, right? Or read. Um, but I think I'm assuming this is written after Trevor's death. So I think it's also a part of grieving, like the grieving process for little dog to talk about Trevor in such a way that like would help him process Trevor's death because he really didn't get closure, right? Um like we we only get like a couple moments of Trevor's death and like little dog being like running to the house, but like not going in to see the father, not really getting to be there for the funeral if there was a funeral and like those sort of things. We didn't really so like little dog didn't get the closure he needed. So I think this is how how he's using his mother with the letter format to get the closure he needs for Trevor's death.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:46

Yeah, yeah. Like this outlet to his mother was also like a vessel for like his broader grief. I think makes sense. I was surprised to learn R. E. Trevor's death that like when he's on the train from New York back to Hartford, he's like met with a flurry of texts when he turns on his phone again about Trevor. I'm like, oh, I didn't realize that Trevor had such a community behind him. But that's like as the reader, it's like so sweet to learn weirdly. I'm like, aw.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:15

Yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? Because like they never talk about having other friends or other people in their corner. Like he gets like little dog gets like five different texts from five different people about like, hey, did you hear about Trev? Like Trev's gone or whatever, but then like you never these two characters are always so isolated in their own story that we never hear about these other people who maybe we're supporters, maybe we're just friends, or like who are these people?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:40

To them.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:40

Yeah, yeah. Had the book been a hundred pages longer and explored other relationships with outside people, would you have fucked with that?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:50

I would have. I would have loved to know, like, like because he talks about all these different people and like dying from from drugs. And like I know I guess that really lends to the story about like drug addiction and the olipioid crisis, like he said in that interview. But I would have loved to like see who else was in their corner.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:09

Like, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:10

Me too. Not not that like because I had trouble like feeling for them or or sympathizing with them, but I think just like had I seen the broader community earlier on, it would have made me even more like heart-wrenchingly invested somehow.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

Yeah, I agree completely.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:28

Yeah, it's interesting to think about circling back to Lan, little dog's grandmother, acting as kind of like a buffer between him and his mom. Like, how did you feel about like little dog and Lan's relationship dynamic?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:43

I think they had a really nice relationship, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:46

Like you said, like Lan was the buffer between Little Dog and Rose. But Rose was still Lan's daughter, right? So you can really tell that like Lan obviously loves her daughter, would do anything and excuse anything that Rose did, but she was also a protector of Little Dog at the same time.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:03

So I think that's really interesting. But obviously, yeah, like Lan and Little Dog had such an interesting relationship. Lan was the one who told Little Dog about all the things from the past. Um, so she's kind of like the what's the word? She's like not the researcher, but like what's the opposite of the researcher? Like the storyteller of the past, essentially. I was gonna say, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:26

No, I'm with you. Do you ever hear the like stereotype or trope or whatever you want to call it about like you're your strict parent, but like their parents who are strict with them are like sweet and gentle with you and kind of kind of like softened in old age. I think that definitely happened here in this dynamic, and I think it's like something little dog needed, like their sweet little moments of like solidarity and in picking flowers or like you know, scratching each other's backs or pulling out the gray hairs, are like so tender and something little dog definitely needed in his life, especially in the scene where Lan was like, your mom is is sick in the brain, like me from the war. She's sick, she doesn't mean it, little dog. It's okay, you can come back. And I'm like, that's so awful that that's a conversation that has to happen. But like, I'm so glad for Little Dog for having that in his life.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:19

Yeah, I think if like Lan wasn't that didn't exist in this book, Little Dog would have been fucked, like honestly, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:26

Yeah, it yeah, it would have been a little less than his grandmother.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:30

Yeah, yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:34

Um, but speaking of relationships, like how do you think the book would have changed if Little Dog had a prominent like father figure or male figure in his life when he was little? Other other than Paul, which who I guess I was wondering, other than Paul.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:48

Yeah, Paul's an icon. You know, all he's doing is just like planting plants, smoking some weed, like just living his little life in Virginia, I think. Yeah, you know. Um, yeah, I was wondering like how it would have changed the story, but I don't think it would have been for the better.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:07

No, me either.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:09

Because there is a yeah, there's a moment in the story where we get a glimpse of his father, who was abusive to Rose. And I think if his father was still in the story, instead of abusive to Rose, he would have been abusive to Little Dog. And maybe Rose's character would have changed a bit more dramatically.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:29

Um, but I don't think it would have changed the story for the better. I think it would have been, I think it would have been similar to Trevor's story. Like his father was awful.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:38

True. Yeah. I don't think that like little dog's softness and tenderness would have been able to grow in the way it did had he had somebody like overbearing on him about it. Um, but yeah, I agree. I'm with you. Uh fuck men is the sentiment, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

That's just what it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:58

Um, I wanted to talk about the scene in The Dunkin' Donuts where Little Dog tells his mom that he's gay or he likes men. And in turn, uh Rose tells Little Dog that he had a brother that she uh that like was still born, or did she abort it? I don't remember, but uh who passed away. Um and then the uh he's like Little Dog says, We were exchanging truths, I realized, which is to say we were cutting one another. And I wanted to ask, do you think it would have been possible to exchange these truths without being cutting?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:37

I think well, not in this moment. Like I think in this moment it would have been, it would have played out exactly how it would have been. I think if Rose didn't say anything about his dead brother, it would have been different, obviously. And like maybe Rose would have told him later throughout the story. I don't really know why she told him. Like, I know she's trying to like you know, compare apples to apples, you know. Yeah, but like I think maybe she was trying to relate also to like little dog in a sense, but like this thing about you is similar to this thing about me. They're both being pulled away.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:15

Oh, interesting. But doesn't that make sense? It does, and that's really nice of you because I I thought that it was more like a hurt people hurt people thing, where Rose was like, Yeah, well, you hurt me. Well, you have a dead brother. Get fucked. Like that's how I kind of read it, and which is awful. And I don't think that there was any way to not be cutting in this scene. I think it's I think it's Rose pulling out a few skeletons in the closet because in her mind, a little dog was trying to push one more in there about him being gay. Um, but maybe maybe him jaded.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:51

No, I think you're probably right. I think Rose was probably just seeing like, well, fuck you then, little dog. Like, here's something about that I can share that's gonna top you being gay. You have a dead brother, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:06

She's wild for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

That's interesting, though. I never thought of it that way. Yeah, she is wild for that.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:10

Yeah. You the generous angelic icon. That's so sweet of you. Um, Ocean explained, we touched touched on this a little bit, this final sex scene, but Ocean had explained the final sex scene between Little Dog and Trevor as uh representing an act of rescue. But like we talked about it kind of speaking to Trevor's tenderness, but uh like how else did you read that scene?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

I didn't really read it as like a rescue. Like I don't think he was rescuing little dog in maybe he was in a sense, but like we know that like how should I say it? Like, instead of being like disgusted or lashing out, Trevor decided to be kind, which I think was incredibly out of character for this person, in a sense, like on paper, Trevor's not kind, but like we do see glimpses of this kindness throughout the whole story. Yeah, but I don't know if he was rescuing little dog. I just don't know, is it really hard? Like, I don't really understand what he means by rescue, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:14

Yeah, yeah, fair. I like when I heard that I was like, you know, rescuing little dog from the depths of like his struggle with queerness, rescuing him out of like being tormented about like his confidence sexually, or like there are a few different ways I think you could interpret it, but in my mind they kind of sound like a reach. But I I do think that like little dog's takeaways about like it being okay, or when he was saying how people from Heart Hartford say, like, you're good, you're good, as kind of like a that's like a colloquial thing they use. Um and Trevor kind of like instilling that in him at the end of the scene is like when little dog got to take that with him throughout the rest of his life, is the like you're good. Um, but I'm not sure as much if that's a rescue as much as it is like a mantra that little dog could take with him.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:13

Yeah, I don't really know like what he would mean by rescue, other than yeah. Like obviously there's like your first time having sex is always gonna be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:21

And there's things that are gonna happen, especially as gay men, right? So I think this is their first for way foray into that, and like you know, social media wasn't a thing at this point. So, like, this is this they're just going on the fly, honestly. So, like accidents happen. I think maybe maybe that's the rescuing because little dog would have felt mortified, you know, in that moment. Yeah, I think if anything it's game from that mortification, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I'm I'm with you. I'm glad that he could kind of give that to Little Dog as as like a passing final moment unintentionally. Um, was there anything about the book that surprised you or what surprised you the most?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:03

I don't know about surprise. The my least favorite part of the book, you already mentioned it, was the monkey scene near the beginning. Like I the second time reading it did not feel like it still felt bad as a because I forgot about it. I don't know, like yeah, me too. And I was like, oh my god, like what the f's happening here? Yeah, because like I don't know how it lends itself to the story, honestly. I think it's just there for shock value.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:29

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:30

Um, but it's just like so uncomfortable. I don't know. I just like not surprised by it, but like hated it, hated every second of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:38

Yeah, I hated that scene too. When they mentioned like bringing in the monkey, I was like, wait, one time years ago I read a scene about and then I was like, oh no, it's this scene.

unknown 1:22:48

It's this book.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:50

Like the doom I felt rereading that scene.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:55

That's so funny. And I just like I just like is so uncomfortable with it. And like I know that like they said like because it's like eating the brains is gives medical properties and whatever, but I'm like, don't eat the brains while the monkey's alive. Yeah, like what are we what are we doing here? Yeah, yeah, literally, like leave the fucking monkey alone.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:19

Yeah, no, I'm with you. I don't think there was a ton that surprised me either. Maybe Trevor's tenderness and maybe um like I was surprised how down and like blasé they were about little dog engaging in drug use as well. Like I know it was rampant in their community, but it was just kind of like also little dog does this too. And I was there wasn't like a should I, shouldn't I? Like there was never like a grapple with the drug use. It was just kind of like Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:50

Yeah, that's interesting because there is a scene in the book, like obviously we knew Little Dog was using drugs, and like probably m all because of Trevor's influence, but there was a scene in the book later on where like Trevor is like warming up his heroine or something on a spoon, whatever drug that is, and like offers it to Little Dog. Little dog says no, which like was interesting because that was his no no go was heroin, turns out. Yeah, which is kind of interesting that he would just take it.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:20

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, true. But yeah, he and he was like, uh, you know, Trevor said I'm a baby or a pussy or something because like injectables was my line. Um, but he like he was just kind of like he said that as a fact. Like Trevor thought I was a coward or a baby or a sissy for this, but he didn't say that he was like bothered by it. He was like, Yeah, so I didn't so I'm like I'm glad he wasn't pressed or bothered by that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:45

Yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:47

Is there um like anything else you want to touch on or anything else that you'd change about the plot if you could?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:54

I think the only thing I wish this story had, and we touched a little bit more about it, but I think I wish we had more moments with Trevor that were like actual real moments. Like I wish Trevor had more like narration. Um there's a lot of like he says like a lot of like funny things or like offhanded comments or like just really like short sentences. I wish there was like an actual like sit down with Trevor and like he just kind of like shared more of his life almost.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:24

I yeah, I wish there was more of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:26

Yeah, true. I respect it. I would love to see that too. That and like yeah, the community piece we mentioned before. I think just more in general. Like, like if have we also had we also seen more into Rose's life, I would have fucked with that also. Like this book could have been 500 pages and I would have been down.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:44

Yeah, literally, yeah. And like even like Lan's life too, like who was Lan on as a child.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:49

Yeah, and Paul.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:50

And like and Paul. More Paul, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:55

I think the yeah, the summary is we're just greedy for Ocean Vaughn's writing. That's all.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:00

I think so. I think we're just greedy for Ocean Vaughn, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:02

Yeah, but um, but that's that's pretty much it. That's the deep dive. That's the episode. Um, thank you so much, Logan. I just wanted to also ask where can the people find and follow you and support the book archive?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:16

They yeah, they can find me everywhere on almost all socials, uh, on thebookarchive.ca. That's also our website. Very convenient for everyone. Um, that's where you'll find me. Thanks for having me too, Mariah. This was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:30

Of course. My pleasure. We'll have to have you on another time. Um, because yeah, I feel like this episode is gonna bang, and this was just so much fun. We also have a lot of similar reading tastes, so it's kind of like indulgent for me. So I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:42

Yeah, literally. I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:45

But uh, thanks everybody for tuning in. And uh be sure to subscribe and uh like, drop us a comment, engage in all the ways that you would like to. I would appreciate it. We're still a little podcast, and uh, we'll see you in the next one.