Pretty Well Read
Every month, writer (and reader) Mariah Moore chats with a new guest about their relationship to reading, plus a deep dive into one of their favourite books.
Pretty Well Read
Alison Rumfitt's "Brainwyrms" with David Lacy!
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Host: Mariah Moore
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Substack: https://mariahmoore.substack.com/
https://www.mariahmoore.com/
Guest: David Lacy
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dav_lac/
Music by: Daniel Callihoo
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielcallihoo
This episode of Pretty Well Read is sponsored by Nick Labonte in his debut novel, Fates Conscripts. Fates Conscripts is a dark fantasy novel about revenge, the horrors of the unknown, and the prices people are willing to pay to get what they want. It's the first in the Bleakwood books series. If you like dark fantasy horror and you're fantasy skewing a little more early medieval than early modern period, then this might just be the book for you. Ditto if you like books like Prince of Thorns and The First Law. I read Nick's book when it came out a few years ago, and it is such a stunning debut. It's so dark, it's so immersive, and the ending really stuck with me. If you want dark escapism, you want this book. You can find Faith's conscripts in both paperbook and ebook formats on Amazon today. Thanks again for Nick Labonte for sponsoring this episode of the podcast. Back to it. But uh yeah, please welcome to the podcast, David Lacey.
SPEAKER_01Hello.
SPEAKER_00Hello.
SPEAKER_01That's high expectations of this podcast. I don't know if I can live up to that.
SPEAKER_00We mostly, when we're yapping on the internet, we're it's mostly about books, and it's always opinions coming at me from you that I'm like, I don't think I've ever had enough brain cells to come up with a thought like that. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01Maybe I'm more articulate in like met text versus we'll find out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we'll see. This will be the true test. And uh yeah, we'll find out together. But if you are new to Pretty Well Read, how it works is I have a guest on every month, and we talk about their relationship to reading and what that looks like. We get into the love of it, the love of the game, and uh then we deep dive into a book of the guest's choice. This month we are talking about Alison Rumfit's brain worms. Um, so we will get into it in uh section two, which will be no spoilers conversation about it. And then if you stick around until section three, we dig deep into the spoilers, baby. But um jumping into just the first part here about you as a reader. I always start out with um, how did we meet? But I think it was just the internet if you have an alternate story.
SPEAKER_01My alternate story is that we were both involved in the Edmonton drag scene in like when 2015 to 2017-ish. I don't yeah, I remember the first time I ever met you was I was in the U of A amateur drag competition, and you were one of like oh girls who came to do a little number and I won that competition.
SPEAKER_00Correct, yeah, yeah. I that's so funny. I everyone's you know, I talk about when I talk about drag, people are like, Are you retired? And I'm like, kinda, but not really. I'm just not actively seeking out gigs. But if somebody wants to hire me in Montreal, like I got a few wigs kicking around, so make it happen. Um, but getting into another mutual hobby we have, obviously, is reading. And this is so exciting because I don't know much about like your love for it and how you got into it. So, how did you were you always a reader, David? Or what did that look like?
SPEAKER_01I think I mean there's multiple things that are responsible for this. The main one is my mom. She I grew up, well, first of all, I grew up homeschooled. Oh, okay, work. Um, and my mother is obsessed with reading books to children. She loves reading aloud. So, like on a very regular basis, multiple nights a week, throughout most of my childhood, my mom would be like reading books aloud to us. Yeah. And like we'll just like play with our toys or whatever, and she'd read to us chapter books. Um, so that was I feel like the start of it because that was from like I started like reading my own books, like I don't know. Early ones that I remember are the like Percy Jackson, the Lightning Thief books. I was just um Peter and the Star Catchers. There was like a bunch of different like series that I was very into as like a young teen. I discovered like audiobooks and then the whole world changed for me.
SPEAKER_00Oh, really interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I and I think it's because I got into reading from my mom reading aloud. But I have always been an audiobooks girl. All of my life I've had stories playing in my ears, pretty much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, cute. I love that. I yeah, I haven't had anybody like uh express their Uber love for the audiobook. I love audiobooks too. Um, but to back it up, your mom reading to you, first of all, that's adorable. People don't realize how much just like like modeling hobbyist behavior really translates to their kids, or how much that kind of exposure like sticks with them. That's so sweet. Um, is she reading like one fish, two fish to you, or is she reading out of a Danielle Steele, or what's a what has she got on tab?
SPEAKER_01I mean, when we were very young, some Dr. Seuss for sure. Um she would read, I don't know, like Chronicles of Narnia. Oh fun. Um, do you know the Redwall series? No, I don't know her. All like about like little woodland creatures who have like a monastery and do lots of stuff. Cute.
SPEAKER_00Um do you do like all types of books on audio? Because I find that that I have a hard time with audio fiction because I I will stop paying attention. Whereas if it's a memoir, it just sound it sounds like a podcast, so it's easier for me to stay tuned in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd say fiction for sure, I will always do audio. The one area of my reading that I don't do audio, often because they don't exist as audiobooks, but more like academic nonfiction. Oh, sure. It's a very complicated topic. Philosophy, like I have I really enjoy philosophy and stuff, and that stuff I have to read. That kind of stuff I definitely prefer to visually read. Yeah, yeah. Fiction, I I always listen. And that's funny you say you always zone out. Like I sometimes do. I think my brain is probably trained more than a lot of people's to follow a story, even though I'm kind of like tuning in and out a bit. Yep. But I I definitely zone out more when I'm visually reading too. Like I'll always do where I'm like, oh, I got through like an entire page and then I don't remember anything that I just read.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. That's like the most relatable. That's every reader's experience, especially when you're in kind of a slump and you're like, why can't I? Why is my reading comprehension negative five? I can't like I've got no juice left. So you read uh when you were younger, you were doing the Percy Jackson thing. Uh what about now? Like, what kind of genres are you into and what kind of genres do you not touch as often?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's probably easier to go with ones I don't read. I it's I have only recently gotten into any kind of romance. Really? I've never really, I mean, I read some like teen contemporary stuff, but most of the time I'm not really in the romance genre.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, fair. You read like a couple of John Greens once, like in the YA.
SPEAKER_01John Green books. But I wouldn't see John Green is well, I guess he is a romance novel. That's not a romance novel in the way I'm thinking of romance novel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, my dipping my toes was in hockey romance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, as one of the. Yeah, interesting. Is that a is that a het one or is that also a gay romance?
SPEAKER_01Both. It's like a woman and she falls in love with multiple men, and then the men also love each other, and as a whole by poly situation. Ooh, fun.
SPEAKER_00Okay, cool. Yeah, oh, that is super cute. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I recently hopped on the heated rivalry train because I like had to, and she was I like I get the hype. I get it.
SPEAKER_01I get it too. I have I mean, I watched the show and I I read the first book. I liked it, but I I need to continue on the like the heated rivalry long game.
SPEAKER_00Like, so heated rivalry is pretty like front-loaded with the sex and the spice, and then they kind of fall in love later, but but typically romance, it's like the build is is slower and and a little more PG, and then they get to it. And apparently the rest of the the books in the series are more like that, but heated rivalry was like they couldn't stay away from each other in the first 50 pages.
SPEAKER_01And honestly, in a way, I feel that's more honest about gay relationships. Fair. So many gay men situations, it starts with hookups, it starts with the sex, and when the sex is good, then you try to romance as like a okay, we work in this way, can we work in this way? Not for everyone, but I I do know me that dynamic is not foreign.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, interesting. Well, and I love that the dynamic like exists in books, then if it's like true to you know how to do it.
SPEAKER_01Certain aspects of it are true to reality, I would say. The last few years I've become a horror reader. I most of my life I was not really a horror person. I especially movies, like I am very reactive to jump scares, so I would struggle in movies. But with books, like probably only in the last like three or four years have I enjoyed horror. This book is is one of the ones that was early in me, like really loving it. Yeah, I've always read like a lot of like thriller mysteries. I mean, my biggest genres for most of my life are sci-fi and fantasy.
SPEAKER_00I really sci-fi, because I feel like that's been a lot of like I haven't really touched her yet, but you you've been in it to win it for a while.
SPEAKER_01I've been in the sci-fi world since my early teens for sure.
SPEAKER_00In terms of ratings, I know some people are just read based on vibes and they love and they let it go, but some people are like, here are my tier-ranked books for the year. Do you rank your books at all? Like, do you five-star rate them?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I do do a five-star at the end of each book I I read. I usually like will like mark it finished on goodreads and give it a score. My scoring is very. I would say my average score is a four. If I enjoyed myself pretty much throughout, there's aspects of it that I found interesting, it's probably four. If there's things that I like piss me off a bit, but like overall I enjoyed myself, it's a three. If okay, interesting. If it's like I really enjoyed myself, and then there's something that like feels unique, or something that feels like I haven't read anything like that before, or something that just like pushes it over the edge for me, it's a five. I give out fives pretty liberally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. Like, what hits that five-star marker for you? So it's something that kind of like innovates in this space, something that feels a little more unique in the genre, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, that is a definitely something that will give me a five-star.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. I always say for me, a five-star is like a four-star, I agree, is something that like I loved it, but a five-star is like an it's an auto-reck. Like, I would automatically recommend this to like most book lovers. Like, it's it's the one of the first things that that comes to mind. It's kind of like an everyman's man book. Like, you have to enjoy this, or else are you okay? Like, that's a five-star to me. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01See, yeah, this is a five-star for me, but this is not a recommend to everyone kind of book.
SPEAKER_00Another kind of hit or miss question for people is how often do you DNF or do not finish books?
SPEAKER_01I think there's like a critical threshold for me where if like often I'll give a one session to a book where I'm like, I like start a book and I'm like an hour or so in, I'm like, I don't know if this is the mood right now. I'll often finish. I'll like stop there. If I've gotten like halfway through a book, I'm gonna finish it. I I don't often like get angry at the book and stop. It's usually just like a this is not the mood right now. I need something different for my taste. Like it's a mood-based thing for sure. Um but it's pretty rare for me to like hate a book and stop reading. Like, I usually I think I know my taste well enough that I typically choose books that I like. That's why I almost never give below a three-star rating. Cause like I'm not picking books that I'm not gonna like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're not picking willy-nilly, exactly. I also wanted to talk to you about like uh like myself, you know that diversity is important and reading diversely is important. Um, like why would you say reading diversely is important to you as a reader?
SPEAKER_01One of the functions of stories is to kind of train our brains in a way, like to kind of get to form our perspective on the world and to form what narratives we see in the world. And when you read a book by someone who is very different from you, you can expand the lenses you're able to see the world with, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Well said, I think to like piggyback off of that, not to use a corporate buzzword phrase, but um it's just such a good empathy builder, right? Like, and that that's what comes with like having new perspectives and opening that lens, like you were saying, it's and you know the what the world could never have too much of empathy, absolutely empathy, curiosity, these are the things that we need. Last question for you. You in particular are an artist in so many facets. You're also a writer and you're also a musician. How does reading influence your other passions, or does it?
SPEAKER_01That's a great question. I haven't thought about it.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. I wrote it this morning and I was like, Am I putting them on the spot?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely as a writer. I mean, the types of writing that I do, I mostly so far have written short things. Poetry, little, I don't know, reflections on things. Like I and those those aspects of my writing, oh, songs, um, are definitely influenced by by a lot of the stuff I read, a lot of maybe more like philosophical aspects of my reading versus fiction. But I think I've definitely had read a book and then had the swirling thoughts of my brain be influenced by that book and then had wrote a poem or a creative output of something that kind of taking the soup of the what that book did to my brain and having something about put from it.
SPEAKER_00When you, as a writer, do you read things that you would never envision yourself writing? And you're just like, like, good for Susan, good for Stephanie for writing this, because I could never like, do you ever feel like I respect you so much for what you do because it's so far beyond what I could conceive of doing? Or are you just like, nah, I can do that?
SPEAKER_01I think I have an overconfidence about my ability to do things I've never done in general. Um so a part of me thinks I could do it, and a part of me knows that I probably I'm just too busy, you know. That's the reason. That's the reason I'm not doing what Susan's doing, is because I got a nine to five, and yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm too big. Interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's yeah, your schedule just won't allow it. When I read like fantasy is something that I would have a really hard time with. Like when I'm reading a romance, I'm like, like, I could do this, but when I read fantasy or sci-fi or like a really long coming of age story, like a demon copperhead or like a tree grows in Brooklyn, I'm like, I respect you. I could never but um what about a coming of age feels out of your wheelhouse?
SPEAKER_01Like what?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I so when I'm writing, I feel like I'm great at dialogue and I'm and I'm great at the quick like back and forth. And I think I can um like uh build a plot, but I'm I'm a pretty like fast-paced writer, like this scene and this scene and this scene. But when those longer coming-of-age books kind of like meander around childhood into adolescence into adulthood, and and so much of it is kind of that inner monologue. I'm like, I I don't know how to sit with that. But um, maybe if maybe because I also work a nine to five, maybe that's what's stopping me.
unknownMaybe.
SPEAKER_00Welcome back to section two of the podcast. We are talking Allison Rumfit's brain worms. I'm gonna start off if you haven't read it yet, um, by reading the back of the book. When a turf bombs Frankie's workplace, she blows up Frankie's life with it. As the media descends like vultures, Frankie tries to cope with the carnage, binge drinking, sleeping with strangers, pushing away her friends. Then she meets Vanya, mysterious, beautiful, terrifying Vanya. The two hit it off immediately, but as their relationship intensifies, so too does Frankie's feeling that Vanya is hiding something from her. When Vanya's secrets threaten to tear them apart, Frankie starts digging and unearths a sinister, depraved conspiracy, the roots of which go deeper than she ever imagined. Shocking, grotesque, and downright filthy, Brainworms confronts the creeping reality of political terrorism while exploring the depths of love, pain, and identity. And I think that's the most like family-friendly way you can describe this book.
SPEAKER_01Whenever I introduce this book to someone or describe what it's about, I always the first thing I say is the parasites.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yep. It sure is that sure is a thing. Oh, I will also say for listeners for this episode of PWR that there are content warnings for this book. So we also might be talking about content warning-related things. Um, I'll read the content warnings from the front of the book, actually. It says, um, Brainworms features very taboo sex that many would consider unsafe or unsanitary, as well as sexual violence and child abuse. So if that ain't it, I get it, bestie, and I'll see you in the next step. Um, but I'll start off, David, by asking, why did you choose this for the podcast and why do you, you know, shout it from the rooftops to your friends?
SPEAKER_01This book. Well, so I was trying to think when you asked what's a book that you love, a book that I don't know, is important to you. I was thinking, what are the I as I read quite widely, so I was like, okay, what are the what's a big chunk of books that I like that I could talk about? Yeah. I love the I love books about depraved, kind of just very disturbed main characters. I like books where all of the characters are fucked in the head. Like I that kind of subgenre of like the Otessa Moshweg, like Melissa Broder, um, Sayaka Murata, like those kind of like women going crazy and their lives are just like I really love those books. I've read a lot of them. And this one sticks out to me as like an early one. I read this one for the first time, I think four years. It only came out in 2023, right? I read it the year it came out, 2023, and it kind of sticks in my head as one of an early book I read in that subgenre that I was like, I have a taste for it and I need more. This is one that it's I had have had read other books that are scratching a little bit of the same itch as this book. There's certain aspects of this book that I've never had anything else that made me feel the way this one did. Yeah. Um, so I was like, okay, it this book represents a larger genre of of fiction that I'm interested in and enjoy.
SPEAKER_00I will say that um one of the first books that I got into when I was a young tween. Have you read any Augustine Burroughs memoirs? Like Running with Scissors. Okay, he I owned it.
SPEAKER_01Have you read her? I've owned the book for many years, but never read it.
SPEAKER_00No, oh my god, that was okay. So there's lots of like gay sex and it's fucked up. It's um like autobiographical, it's a memo, well, it's a memoir, but um there's lots of gay sex, but when he's a minor dating a man much older than him, and it's very like fucked up and sad in that way, but it's also so full of dark humor. The humor just like really goes there. And I remember reading it in fucking 2007 and being like, writers are allowed to do this. And for the first time in a long time, I had it I had another writers are allowed to do this moment with this book at my ripe age of 33. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That makes me really want to read that book. It's literally on my shelf, and I've had it for like a decade, but I have never read it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's good. It's uh I haven't read it in a minute, but I have all of Augustine Burroughs' memoirs. I I stand. But uh, but yeah, no, this book also really goes there to a place that I didn't think. Was passable or allowed for the public consumption.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Well, it's funny you say Burroughs because another do you know William Burroughs? No. He's like a uh poet and author from like uh he's like a beat poet from New York in the 60s. Um he wrote the book Naked Lunch.
SPEAKER_00Oh well that rings a bell, but uh yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01So in post-reading this book, in my search for other books that kind of scratch the same itch, William Burroughs Naked Lunch is one of the ones that hits a piece of this, which is it's very poetic, but it's poetry about just the most disgusting, depraved things you can think about. Really beautiful language, beautiful descriptions of disgusting stomach churning things. Interesting. William Burroughs wasn't, so maybe it's a Burroughs thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe, maybe. And to know that he kind of wrote in the 60s, like, and this has been going on right under our noses for so long. Fascinating. I also, speaking of genre, I wanted to talk about when I was doing some research uh about the reviews for this book after I finished it. A lot of the reviews were under the subreddit Extreme Horror. And I was like, I didn't know extreme horror was a genre. So I wanted to ask, did you know it was a genre? And have you read a lot of like what you could call extreme horror?
SPEAKER_01There's a few authors that people bring up as like, this is the most thing I've ever read. Like I've seen a lot of those YouTube tier lists of most disturbing books I've ever read. Yeah, oh yeah. This one or books by Allison Rumfetter's often on those lists of this one. I think I I've never remember if I've even seen this one in S tier, but I've seen this in A tier on a bunch of those lists.
SPEAKER_00Um where it belongs, yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I've read a bit in that world. Um I don't did you know the book Earthlings by Sayaka Marata.
SPEAKER_00Marata, yeah, I do. Icon.
SPEAKER_01Yes. That one also gives I would put in the same kind of like books that are purposefully trying to be extreme and purposefully pushing boundaries. And can we be break every single taboo in one book? Let's try. Like, yeah, love that. Yeah, I I I I'm curious about the genre. I have dipped my toes a bit in the genre. I have TBR filled up with this genre, and we'll continue to explore, I would say. I think the thing that I like about it is I read these books in one sitting. Like Oh, do you?
SPEAKER_00You read this in one shot?
SPEAKER_01This is the third time I've read this book. Every single time I've read it, I finish it in either one or two days.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, is she okay?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. These types of books are what I read when I've like just finished a long ass like novel that I've been working on for like three weeks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Then I'm like, okay, I just need to like like jump through, do something that just like zone in, it'll keep me hooked in the whole time. I have a weekend, I just want to like read a whole book in this one weekend. Yeah. This type of extreme or horror in general, but it just has an effect on me where you just like can't put it down. I need to know, like, I need to know what's gonna happen next.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That actually leads me into my next question is like, why do you think people love to be shocked and disgusted by what they read? What's your what's your theory on that? Is it because it hooks you like that?
SPEAKER_01For me, that's a big factor. And I think it it's very like a car crasher driving by, you just need to like, you just need to see, like that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, there's something about the intensity of the effect, like visceral effect of your body. Some books I can really love, but it's more like intellectually, I'm appreciating the story, and it's very interesting, and it's making me think a lot. And then there's books that like I have a physical, bodily reaction to the words, and disgust, horror, those types of things I feel on a body level more than a mind level, in a way. I think there's something about disgust as an emotion that is super powerful. And yeah, I don't know, the intensity of the effect of the of the book is why I think a lot of people like to read horror.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, fair. I think it also, well said, I think it's like so human when a book gives you like a visceral reaction, you feel like so humanly connected to it. I also feel like books this grotesque, it kind of feels like you're being let in on like a really scandalous secret because you have that feeling of like, oh my god, like is this okay? That she wrote this and like and I know it now, and it feels very like, oh like it kind of feels like really hot tea.
SPEAKER_01There, yes. And I think there's like a thrill in transgression. And I feel like that's one of the main things that she's trying to do in this book is get you to feel the thrill of I can't believe she said that. Like it feels good to transgress social norms, to dip your do toes into taboo things. These characters know about that for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And while it is very well written and very well constructed, I I really enjoyed this book. It's not on the it's not on the bestseller walla, your local indigo. Like it's not like a it's not um like a Reese's book club pick. Do you this could have been in the first section, but I wanted to ask, like, do you purposely try to stray away from kind of mainstream books from time to time, or did this was this a one-off that fell into your lap? Interesting.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I have a couple things to say. One, I I first discovered this book because it was mentioned by Abigail Thorne, who has a YouTube channel called Philosophy Tube, where she talks about philosophy and lots of different stuff, and she's a trans woman in the UK. And when this book first came out, she mentioned it on her YouTube channel as a really good trans horror novel. So it's kind of like word of mouth that I word of mouth from a YouTuber that I discovered it. Um in terms of like do I purposefully go away from popular stuff? Maybe. I think certain aspects of books that I'm interested in are just less have less mainstream appeal. Trans horror is something I've read a lot of, but probably is not topping a lot of bestseller lists. Um, a lot of like the niche like philosophy books that I'm reading are not in any um bestseller lists. I'm less drawn to it just because it's popular, but then sometimes I'll have a I always say this experience that I had with Song of Achilles, where I'm like, for several years, I was like, I don't know, I don't know if it's for me. It's just like everyone's reading that, so I didn't read it for several years. And then I read it and I was like, oh, it's really good. It's great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But when that's so funny you say that. And when you do have those moments of being able to read a really popular book several several years later, it feels nice to like bring that conversation back to people. Like I finally read Song of Achilles, and then all your bookish friends can be like, Finally, oh my god, let's open the vault to this conversation for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, bring it back. And that's always that's one I see people reading all the time. And it's it's fun to read a popular novel just because like Stranger on the Bus is reading it. Let's like how are you enjoying the book? Like, um, it's it's it's nice to connect with people about books. And when you're reading the same book as all your the reason I read Pucking Around is because three of my coworkers read it and I just wanted to some talk about it with them.
SPEAKER_00Like to connect. And I like what you said also about kind of like having a mix between sometimes you're just interested in books that aren't that aren't hitting the mainstream, but you're not going to discount a mainstream book just because it's mainstream. I think striking that balance for those who aim to read uh widely but also diversely, that's kind of that's the move. I feel like sometimes maybe we should go out of our way to see like what's not making these lists and what you could enjoy and support. Um, but yeah, well said. I I think the balance makes sense. I know a few people who are very like literary hipsters and they never read anything popular, and like sure, like, but you're but not reading anything that's popular because it's popular is very like, why are you taking the joy out of this? You can still read good books.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Many things are popular because they're good.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah, like bestie Madeline Miller.
SPEAKER_01Shout out to Madeline Miller. We need to do one.
SPEAKER_00She's a big fan, she watches, so hey Matt.
SPEAKER_01Hey Maddie.
SPEAKER_00Um, I also wanted to ask, uh, do you think that so Alison Rumfit is a trans woman herself and uh Frankie, one of the main characters, is also a trans woman. Do you think that um Allison inserted some of her own experiences or experiences she's heard of through the community into the book? And do you think it's possible for people not to do that?
SPEAKER_01I think absolutely. I mean, I don't want to speak for her because there's some fuck that's it in this book, and I don't want to say, like, oh yeah, it's definitely just her being herself. But yeah, I'm sure the feelings of these characters have some familiarity to her, but also like some of the things that they're feeling self-hatred, a lot of people be self-hating. I'm sure if I was to guess, does Alison Rumfin hate herself a bit? Sometimes her first book was called Tell Me I'm Worthless.
SPEAKER_00True. Yeah, she'd be a human too. So be human.
SPEAKER_01Hating yourself is just one part of the human experience that should be explored in literature.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, is it possible to not to write to not be yourself or to not insert yourself into your books? I don't know. I think you can purposefully try to write someone who's different from you, but if you're trying to do that on purpose, you're kind of still making the character in opposition to who you are, which is reacting against you, or it's still there's still a piece of you there, like a shadow piece of you trying to purposefully do something different from yourself. Yeah, we're always writing a version of ourself, I think.
SPEAKER_00True, yeah. Because I think like you know, people write what they know, and how do you how do you not put your personal experiences or learnings into that? So yeah, I'm with you.
SPEAKER_01And I especially if you're like, I don't know, good writing is showing the human experience, and the only human experience you have is your own experience. So if you want to express that well, you should be digging in your own feelings and experiences to to find the material for your your writing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And and to inform your style in a sense, too, I think. But um, yeah, well said. So this book is horrifying, but if I had to describe it, I I would put the horror into the two camps of like turfs and anti-trans people and just bigots in general and the the atrocities and horror that comes with their ideologies, and body horror. Would love to talk about like what was more terrifying to you. Uh did they like kind of make each other more terrifying? Like, how how would you describe the horror here?
SPEAKER_01Hmm. Yeah, I think there's definitely two aspects to it. There's yeah, the the characters. Is it spoilers to say that they like parasites? I don't think so. One of the main things that this book explores is people who enjoy having parasites and fantasizing about their parasites. Um they sure like it, yep. They sure do. And I think like that as one aspect of what is shaping the the novel, being held up next to prejudice and fascism. Um what I think she is trying to do is to try to show prejudice and fascist tendencies, and more than that, but those things specifically are a kind of fetishism. I think that's what she's what the point of the book is in a way. That the the fe the disgust of that she's bringing into the reader with the descriptions of the gross sex stuff, the violence, the the very brutal and disgusting descriptions of things, to bring that feeling into the reader and then pair it with prejudice and um ideologies of superiority, pairing those two things together, I think, is meant to cause a visual a vis uh visceral response to to prejudice and to fascist ideologies in general, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That's well said. I I hadn't I hadn't even thought of that. How you already are kind of like physically or maybe mentally on the defense having to read something so like grotesque in a body horror way, but then having that be further amplified and further elevated by like you know, turfs. That's yeah, yeah, interesting. That's yeah, that's fascinating. I agree.
SPEAKER_01And I love I really love horror that yes, has supernatural elements or more traditional horror elements, but then has more grounded themes that they're exploring as well. And an author who I think does that really well is Grady Hendricks.
SPEAKER_00I love Grady Hendrix. Yeah. Like he's so campy too in his writing.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So crazy, there's a lot of okay, like in all of his books, there's always a supernatural element, a s something that's horrific that is outside of the realm of reality. But most of the time, the thing that I find most horrifying in his books is the stuff that's grounded in reality. Like, yeah, totally. Have you read Witchcraft for Wayward Girls?
SPEAKER_00No, but she's right here on my TBR card, and I I need to read her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that one, like it there are scary stuff that's supernatural and stuff, but the thing that's the scariest about that is like medical trauma for young pregnant women. Um misogyny for unwed or misogyny around unwed mothers and like the way society treats those people is the is the horror, the most intense part of the horror of that novel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because it's real. Exactly. This uh goes well into it. I forgot to talk about um Rumfit's writing style. Like I found it so like it was lyrical where it needed to be to amplify like the setting or the mood, but it was it was so kind of like blunt and also in your face. And I think like Vanya's POV chapters versus Frankie's, it was it they contrasted so well that it just really immersed me in the story, but I'd love to hear what you thought about Romfit's writing style as well.
SPEAKER_01This book has so many different stylistic elements to it that are very creative. Like, I don't I'm very curious about the editing process of this book because there are many like mistakes, misspelled words. There's the grammar is not traditional, like the run-on sentences are pages sometimes. Like, yeah, it gets you in the mind of a very disturbed person to have breaking all the rules to be thinking in like to have misspelled words just randomly. And it feels intentional, but it feels like this is a very like disturbed person who's not fully like um lucid. And so I listened to this on audio, and the audiobook person audiobook reader was very good with that thing. Like they would mispronounce certain words, and then I would like check in the book, and I'm like, oh yeah, they did misspell that. Like they that's what was written.
SPEAKER_00Cool. Yeah, what a fun artistic choice. Yeah, I I totally forgot about the misspellings, but I think it really does add to the characters and gets you inside their heads. Um, such a cool artistic choice, too. Like, honestly, and if uh for Rumfit herself, she probably thought it was so fun.
SPEAKER_01This would have been such a fun book to write, I feel. Yeah, and I feel like she just gave herself freedom to do whatever she wanted with this book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like it's very let my free flag fly vibes.
SPEAKER_01Very much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01When you asked the question earlier about books that make you feel like, oh, I could never write that. This is a book that makes me feel I can write whatever I want.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it kind of gives you that freedom, hey?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and especially as someone who most of my writing so far has been poetry. I like that Allison's writing often will start in a very like lucid stream of consciousness. And then as the chat even within a chapter, it'll change and kind of become more poetic and more just weird.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like it's disgusting, but a lot of her stylistic choices kind of gave me like a you know, go girl, give us everything kind of vibe, like get a girl, like you do your thing, and I'm here to enjoy your art kind of vibe.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um I also we wanted to talk about um, you had made a great point of wanting to talk about how the internet plays a role in the story, in the in the plot, in the horror. What do you think like the internet and the onlineness of it all contributes to?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think that she a lot of the characters like spend a lot of time on the internet. There's there's sections of the book that are like posts on a forum, um, back and forth. There's the main character, Frankie, her job is a content moderator. So she's kind of just spending all day looking at disturbing images and deciding what's like allowed on an app or um. So yeah, I think the internet and the way the internet affects people's desires, people's ability to connect with each other is a big theme in this book. I think one in connecting people with niche fetishes to one another, that that's a big point, but also with the way ideology spreads over the internet, about how certain people can get radicalized into certain political um movements or political ideologies through internet, and having that third of like radicalized into like niche weird fetish and that radicalized into like fascism, yeah, it's it's an interesting um combination that I think is is saying something about how how digital media has allowed people to communicate about things that they maybe couldn't before and made space for people to kind of become more extreme in a way.
SPEAKER_00Also just makes you feel like, oh my god, this this must be a common occurrence with like how easily it can happen as demonstrated in the story. So it adds to the horror with like, oh my god, the people I love could be a fascist turf tomorrow, because like look at what the internet is kind of breeding. Um so yeah, I thought that was well done. God, and it really makes it feel more relatable too, and therefore you really putting yourself in her story.
SPEAKER_01An aspect of Allison Rumfit that I'm quite sure is her inserting herself into this book is these characters are people who spend a lot of time online. Frankie goes on Twitter a lot, and the the fights she gets in on on Twitter and the effects of that on her are a big part of why she's such a disturbed person, I think.
SPEAKER_00I also wanted to talk, obviously, about the like LGBTQ uh 2IA plus representation. Um there are so many queers in the book, which is so wonderful. So many trans characters. Frankie is trans, Vanya is non binary. Um, and I I love to see it, and I love to see more books that aren't just like my struggle with this identity. Like that's those are important stories to tell, but it's also important to just like insert these marginalized identities into. Stories and having them do just normal human shit, whether it be scary or otherwise.
SPEAKER_01This is not normal human shit, but yes, I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_00No, but yeah, you know what I mean. Like normally, like a cis head would be put in this place, but like it's nice to see that like they are in there and it's not because they're trans, they just also are. Um, what do you think books like these do for the community?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think this book has a complicated relationship to the idea of like good representation. Because I think what Alison Rumfit is trying to do with this book is purposefully play on certain stereotypes and take them to an extreme. So the the turf ideology is the stereotype of certain trans people that is being spread by many people, right? Is that trans people are perverts, pr trans people are predatory to children, they are all people transness in general is a like a perversion and deviant and disgusting. This book takes that to a comical level. True. It's not necessarily trying to like say, oh no, they're not like that. It's like let's take it and run with it to an extreme that makes it comical and then also talk about how the ideology that is pushing that is the same thing, is a perverse ideology. I would not say this is like good, good representation in a way. Um but it's good in that I enjoy it. It's good in um it's kind of saying fuck you to the idea that queers need to be good. Like yeah, exactly. Trans people can be perverts, and that's fine.
SPEAKER_00That's true.
SPEAKER_01That's what this book is saying about the stereotype of trans people as deviant and perverse. It's like, yes, and that's okay. Or maybe not okay, but that that's like it's just human.
SPEAKER_00They just also can't, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, transphobia is more perverse than transness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's that's so interesting because yeah, my initial thought was your secondary point of like, you know, trans people can be in a whore, trans people can have delusions, and they can be fucked up and they can be these characters. It's like it doesn't have to be like a cishet having a mental having a Menti B. But uh, but I guess in a way that isn't like good representation because it per it like in the wrong hands could perpetuate and further the idea that they are perverse. Um, yeah, wow, you really thought about that. Because I my optimist ass was like, wow, yes.
SPEAKER_01I would not, yeah. I would not think of the these characters as like great representation in a way they're kind of awful. Yeah. But you know what? That's real too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, true. People be awful, people be flawed. Um, I think that's a good segue into my next question about like, so who would you recommend this book to?
SPEAKER_01I have recommended this book only to a few people because it I would recommend this book to people who like to be disturbed, like to have books that are that can give you a physical reaction. Um, if you enjoy internet culture, but like the extreme side of it, if you were a kid who showed like two girls one cup to your friends, and then like this book is trying to do a similar thing. I don't know. If you revel in depravity, this book for you. You like, I mean, kind of like experimental weird fiction that's yes, has a narrative structure and and all that stuff, but also is just kind of like very creatively written and very um breaks a lot of rules in many ways. Social taboos and stuff, but also just like the rules of grammar and the rules of how how narrative should should should go. I think it this book is transgressive in many, many ways. If that description makes you want to read it, then this is for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, hell yeah. I love that. I think I would hesitate because I put it on my uh story the other day just saying that I had finished it and saying that I loved it. Um and a lot of people were like, oh, that sounds interesting. And if anybody who's kind of a little more like crudish to my knowledge inquired, I was like, hey, wait a minute. I was like, I was like, this is a little more like imagine being like sexually aroused by the thought of putting a parasite in your anus. I was like, if if you can fuck with that to pick up this book.
SPEAKER_01Those characters, if you want to get in the head of that character, this book is for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. So that's why, you know, dear listeners, uh we were saying the back is so like neutrally written to summarize the book. Um uh I also saw in my research that a few people online were saying that Rumfit's novels are kind of set out to teach about social dynamics and injustice, but but I didn't get like a super teachy or preachy vibe. I thought it was like I didn't really I didn't really get the like I'm being taught a lesson here. I I but I wanted to hear what you thought about that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I've already kind of talked a little bit about what I think she's trying to do. I think that she's definitely not preachy. If anything, she's preaching like the gospel that she's preaching in this book is fucked. Um what I think she's actually trying to do, like as like a political commentary in this novel, is point out something about desire and how it motivates people to do things. Like, I think ultimately she is trying to point out that the desire to have power and control or to see another person as disgusting or to um to transgress a norm, the desire to do that is not just present in sex. The desire to be transgressive and to feel superior and dominant to someone else is also present in political dynamics. People's prejudice is in a way a fetishistic type behavior. People are going on rants about how disgusting those people are, is because it makes them feel good to do that. And yeah, and that is a sex thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, is what she's saying. Everything is a sex thing. Yeah, yeah. There was a point where she said that everything is a sex thing, and that's that's so true in a way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't think she set out to like, and this scene, I want them to take away like turfs are bad. Like, I think that's pretty like ABC's, we should all know that, like that as a baseline. But I think if you don't, if you somehow don't understand the extent of the violence that could come out from these ideologies, maybe you learned something, but I don't think it was her goal to like teach people that.
SPEAKER_01I think she is assuming that these readers are already know turfs are bad.
SPEAKER_00Like, yep, I hope so. Um, and I wanted to cap off this section by asking you if it's not a spoiler, uh, what your favorite passage is. Do you have a favorite passage?
SPEAKER_01So the the passage that I have little bookmarked here is the one that we just said. I don't think it's I don't think it's a spoiler to if you look at some weird shit you found, people acting in a way you don't understand, just tell yourself it's a sex thing. Everything's a sex thing. Even the things that don't look like sex things, turfs all getting together and wear din wearing dinosaur costumes and doing shit karaoke and crying in private event rooms, that's a sex thing. They don't know it, but it's a sex thing. Guardian dinner parties are sex things, cabinet meetings are about sex. They're all wearing day collars and all wearing lingerie. This doesn't make them degenerate, it just makes them like you. The thing that makes it evil is that they think they're different. They think it isn't a sex thing. They think it's about control. It is, but it's a sex thing. Everything. Those couples that have YouTube prank wars, those books about plucky elderly people solving crime, countdown, fox hunting. The rich have always fucked low-class scum like you. This is a sex thing. This book, the act of writing it, obviously, I'm not exempt, I'm not a hypocrite. It's fine to do a sex thing, but it's best to know it's a sex thing. It's best not to try to make it more than that.
SPEAKER_00It I love that.
SPEAKER_01I think that section is what I was trying to say, is what I think she's trying to do with this novel, is trying to point out how, yes, there's this extreme example that she's using of desires taking you in a weird direction in life to loving tapeworms and stuff, but that everything we do in our life is in some way our desire pulling us in a direction. We're it's almost like, you know how so I did a psychology degree. Freud had some weird ideas.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I hated Freud for a long time. I was like, oh, he's crazy, like he thinks everything's about sex. I think he might have had a point in a way. You know? Yeah, totally. I think people have desires that come from somewhere and they send bring us somewhere. A lot of things can come down to subconscious desires that we don't fully understand. And I think she's trying to say, she's trying to help us look for that in places we wouldn't normally look for desire fulfillment and power dynamics. And yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. That's a great passage. I really think it speaks to like how strong her writing style is, and it's also we'll get into it in the next section, but it's a little poke at her also breaking the fourth wall again. She doesn't. Which I'm like, I'm like, you baddie. I love that she does that. I think it's so cool. Um, but yeah, that passage really has a little bit of everything in it. Hey. Um mine is closer to the beginning of the book. There are so many. I've tabbed so many, but um this is that like one-off scene about uh like trans resistance, but this is like before the resistance comes. Um so this is about uh like people infiltrating the gay quarter and the gay clubs and the gay bars to uh like kick off violence or violent acts. Um and she says, and sometimes it would be skulls, sometimes poor sex worker, or sometimes some poor sex worker out on the streets would be there and the men would see him and he would run, but the men would use the side streets, loop around him, surround him, encroaching in a circle of black shirts with white faces grinning under mustaches, swinging their weapons through the air. And do you think the cops ever cared that in the morning there was another dead pansy on the pavement, blood frozen by the chill, by the morning frost, another one off the streets? This is one of Vanya's kind of like uh stream of consciousness uh excerpts. And I think it's such a good example of how horrifying that camp of anti-transness and bigotry can be. Um, under mustaches swinging with their weapons, I'm like, I feel like everybody knows that mustache bigot. Like it just feels so visceral because like you know these people. Um, I thought it was a really good example of that horror.
SPEAKER_01When you said dead pansy on the pavement, I got like goosebumps. Like very poetic descriptions of awful things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's poetic, it's kind of lyrical and horrifying. Allison, how the fuck did you do that?
SPEAKER_01Please do more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, please. Yeah, it was really good. Um, and with that, we'll jump into the last section here. So if you don't mind hearing a little bit of uh spoilers, stick around. But if not, we'll see you in the next one. Thanks for hanging out. Um, Q music. All right, the last section of the episode with David here on Brainworms. We're gonna talk about some spoiler stuff. Um and I just wanted to start off with who are some of your favorite characters?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I really enjoy Vanya. I think I think Vanya's stream of consciousness, their psyche is the most interesting to me in a way. I think the writing style is the most unique for Vanya. Um and I think the way that they think is the most different. There's very few characters in books that I I can think of that that are this unique of a stream of consciousness style. Um it's a very interesting psyche to get a view into.
SPEAKER_00I will say that I I really felt for, I wanted to cry for Vanya's trans brother. Like that's so awful. Like um, how you know things turned out. Obviously, they this is the spoiler section. We could say that they were murdered or he was murdered, but um, I I really felt for him being like not knowing what his siblings kind of ended up doing in life and feeling kind of abandoned in that way, only for him to not get a chance to it it hurt.
SPEAKER_01And that in a in a book that is so depraved and fucked up and section that talks about him going to the support group, meeting the other trans people and finding like kind of having a space to be trans and figure out what that means for him. It's kind of like an oasis of like innocence, the book. Yeah, true. Makes it so much more heartbreaking when he gets murdered and the dad the dad is also a very interesting character.
SPEAKER_00I yeah, it's nice to see the representation of like, because you always hear about the like strict dad who's like, my my daughter or my son will never blah blah blah. And it's usually like empathetic mom who's like, no, my children. But it was the dad who was like, Don't tell your mother what kind of group this is, and he was kind of that safe space for him. Oh, that was such a sad scene. Oh, but yeah, I guess I would put like him and the dad on my favorite character list.
SPEAKER_01They are one of the only characters who are like good people, it'd seem a life rap, truly. Yes. I do love a novel where everyone's awful, honestly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, true. It sure was a lot of that. Um speaking of awful people, I wanted to ask. I'm a very gullible reader. Like if if a if an author is trying to lead me to assume one thing about somebody, I am there, I'm there for the ride. I will assume it. I thought that the clinic bomber was going to be uh Caldwell. Is it Jessica Caldwell? I thought that was gonna be the bomber. But when it turned out to be Vanya's mom, I was like, um, did you did you guess that Vanya's mom would be the bomber?
SPEAKER_01When I first read it, I didn't. I I was surprised by that, and I was like, like the connections, like this, and and when they say, like, oh, that's why Frankie was so drawn to Vanya is because she saw the killer, the bomber in Vanya's face. And that and this whole book is about people being drawn to things that are bad for them and things that are um self-destructive in a way, and falling, having a love at first sight moment because you see the face of your bomber in someone is so crazy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I didn't see it coming, and I was like, that's cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh god, yeah. No, I didn't see it coming at all. Actually, when the first scene when we learned about uh Caldwell in the Samantha scene, I went back and I was like, What did I miss something? Did they already say that this lady is the bomber? This author is the bomber. And so I went back to that scene where they mentioned that Frankie was in the bombing, and I was like, oh no, they just say a woman. And so I was like, I'm gonna big brain this. I bet it's this author lady, only to be bamboozled later in the book.
SPEAKER_01Wasn't J.K. Rowling?
SPEAKER_00True. Well, honestly, though, we'll like she would. TBH.
SPEAKER_01I mean, um we'll see what the future holds. J.K. Rowling becoming a terrorist. It's not out of the realm of possibility.
SPEAKER_00No, but you better sit down and shut up, girl. We we've had enough of you. Tired of it. Yeah. Um, but but that was also on my list is to talk about the similarities between J.K. Rowling and this Caldwell beloved children's author, a character. Um did you immediately get J.K. Rowling vibes? Or yeah, I guess because when you first read it, was she like that openly bigoted? I don't remember.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I as soon as before she even walked on the scene when she so it the scene has Samantha, a trans woman who's like a conservative trans woman who's famous because she's transphobic and hangs out with turfs, yeah, goes to a TERF meeting and they start talking about oh, this author who's recently started being super transphobic and has kind of like become the celebrity of the anti-trans movement. I was like, okay, it's a rolling, like obviously lightly veiled modeling. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I felt so bad for Samantha. Like, I I know that like being a conservative and going to turf meetings, probably not the vibe. But it it really gives like lost lamb, are you okay? It's like minorities who vote for Trump. Yes. I'm like, what internal hatred? Like, what do you need to work through to see that this ain't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And again, this book is all about people who kind of hate themselves a bit. Like that kind of like be receiving love for being willing to say hateful things about one's own community is a really complicated psyche and an interesting psyche. And it's something that is a dynamic that appears in society a lot of people who who make their career on being the one gay person who's willing to say homophobic things on a podcast, and like you can you can get a lot of notoriety, I guess, from being willing to say awful things about your own people and being the the one to give permission to the transphobic people to be transphobic. Yeah, very picnic. They're not transphobic because they have a trans friend, yes, yes. Yeah, like um and what happens to her in that scene is very Yeah, girl, why'd you do that?
SPEAKER_00Because she gets like mauled. Is that like a is that a delusion or is that a Menti B or does she actually get mauled?
SPEAKER_01I think it's up to interpretation. I think she did. True. I think so too. I think the brain worms that we've we find out at the end of the book the brain worms are like aliens that are somehow like infecting the minds of a bunch of elites and causing them to be transphobic and etc. I like the interpretation of there are actually brains or worms in the brains of these transphobes. And I think that's kind of how this book started, in a way, is I there's like a joke online of transphobes have worms in their brains because of the things that they see, the the delusion of much of that ideology. Um but taken to a literal place of there are parasites in their brains that are making them think these crazy ideologies and yeah, an ideology as a parasitic thing. Um it's very cool to have like a literal version of that.
SPEAKER_00That's yeah, well said. Yeah, that scene, I have I have so many feelings about it. I because I I do feel bad for Samantha for being so off track and off course for like where her community is and what happened to her. But then I think about like how harmful Caitlin Jenner is, who's also like kind of an example of this, where I'm like, ugh, you know, get got then. So I'm like, Samantha seems a little more like sympathetic, empathetic, like a more of a kind person, but I'm like, oh girl, things could have been so different for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I also wanted to talk about Frankie's first interaction with the worms. I was reading up on this on Reddit. And there were some people who kind of critique this scene as like it being horrifying at the end of the birthday party, but all for nothing because she just kind of like passed out and came to in the bathtub and then brushed it off. Like so they thought that the end of that scene kind of ruined the horror for them. Um but I quite liked it. What did you think about that scene?
SPEAKER_01So there's I I kind of like that it's ambiguous because she Yeah. I that scene, I still go back and forth about whether it was literal she was seeing actual worms or whether she was hallucinating. Because the we know the worms are ultimately real. We find out closer to the end, but that she gets she drinks the brown liquid, and is it a hallucinogen? Is it some sort of like eggs? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I like the ambiguity of not knowing what was real and whether it was real worms or just a hallucination. Um yeah, I don't think I the ambiguity there doesn't ruin the horror for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, me either. A lot of the book is kind of uh you know, what is this? What do you think it is kind of vibe? And it's so it's to expect a really concrete scene there in such like a um important vignette in the story is like I don't know, set yourself up to be upset, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I like that that scene is kind of paired with the Vanya and the Fox scene. Oh, yeah. True. Back to back, and they kind of mirror each other in a gross way. And I think that also kind of leads into the breaking the fourth wall. Because before before the Vanya section and then her with the worm section, there's a moment where Allison, I wonder if I can find it. She breaks the fourth wall and um gives like another little content warning in the book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she's like, if you need a break, go take a break. I was like, oh my god, I love that you're doing this. Oh, I think I had it underlined here. Oh, yes, yeah, I have it. Do you want to read it or do you would you like me to read it?
SPEAKER_01You should read it if you have it.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So I have this moment where Rumfit breaks the fourth wall here in the middle of one of Vanya's chapters, where it's like her are their um internal monologue, a delusion of sorts. Um, Alison Rumfit says, You, that is the reader, not the character, are welcome to take a break here given the extreme extremity of the content explored in the next series of chapters. It isn't shameful to take a break. It is in fact encouraged that you do so right here so that the novel does not become overwhelming to you. Take a break, get a cup of tea or some water, maybe go for a walk, then come back and continue reading, safe in the knowledge that you, the reader, have fortified your constitution uh and thus can handle what follows. Amazing.
SPEAKER_01When I first got to the power, I was yeah, I was like, this is crazy. And so I have complicated thoughts on trigger warnings. I think that the critique people often say about content warnings is oh, it lessens the effect of the content. It disturbing content will be less effective for you if you know it's coming. And I think she's doing the opposite thing there. I think that warning of this is gonna be so disgusting, you need a break first. Yeah, that is amplifying the effect of the next scene, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00Like it hyped that up. Because yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Each time I've read this, I'm not taking a break. I want to know. No, and so yeah, I didn't think the recommended break feels like I'm like gonna do something crazy. And I think that that little vignette, I I feel like it it amplifies how intense the next scene is, knowing that I had a little warning ahead of time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think so too. Yeah, a lot of people on Reddit also did not like that, but I was like, it made me feel like, you know, Allison's just looking out for us. Like I was like, what a little bestie. I just like appreciated her like sweetheart for doing that. She really said, Hold my beer, I'm gonna like gross you the fuck out. Do you need some tea? Like, what a queen.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Do you think maybe a controversial question that ultimately Vanya and Frankie are like a well-matched couple? Like parasites aside.
SPEAKER_01It depends what you mean, good for each other. I think they have psyches that complement one another in that they're both like depravity and violence and control. Like, I think they are compatible in that way. Are they good for each other? No, these characters want things that are not good for them. So, yes, they're giving each other what they want, but no, they are not good for each other. What they need is I don't know what these characters need. They need a new society that's less fucked up, and they need they need a great talk therapist at the very least. Very much, and some help healthier coping mechanisms, they're doing too many drugs and too many self-hating hookups, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yep, yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think I agree that they're not a great couple, but I I can imagine an alternate timeline. Had society been different towards them and had they had like resources for some mental health help, that I'm like, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. If society was different, the world was different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's my golden retriever ass saying, maybe, maybe love, or just grasping. We need to love as a romantic. Speaking of characters that we probably uh uniformly hated, Gaz. Did you think did you expect the like evil orgy of sorts at the end that he kind of orchestrated also the blowjob from his father? Literally, I was reading this book with my with my partner beside me, and there's so many moments where I would stop and point at a paragraph and go read this. Look at this, and he'd be like, What the fuck are you reading?
SPEAKER_01Yes, so I did not expect it, but that's one of the things I loved about this novel is I was never expecting what was gonna happen, and then fucked up shit would happen. Um, I was not expecting it, but I think there's um it's I really like that ending. I think it kind of um mirrors the kinds of conspiracy theories that go around about what elites are doing in the privacy of their Illuminati type things. I don't know. It reminds me of like Adrenochrome and like Pizza 8 and like Eyes Wide Shut type conspiracy theories. And I think those types of stories are popular online and related to types of conspiracies that exist around like transness, they think that all there's like a cabal of trans people doing stuff. Like I I like that imagery of the the cabal of elites who are controlling things. It I think this novel needed something like that as a finale because throughout there's extremes, throughout there's really crazy stuff, and to have the dy uh a trajectory towards something that feels fulfilling as an ending, you need to go beyond and to go full camp, full crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The elites have mind-controlling worms in their brains and ritual incest.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. It had to go there. I think that's a great point. It like because of how the book set itself up, it really did have to go there.
SPEAKER_01Hey, yeah, you need to kind of up the ante a bit, and I feel like she was successful in in having a finale that feels like it was extreme enough that it felt like uh crescendo, like a good, satisfying ending, but also had like elements that like tied back to the beginning. The entire novel, Frankie just wants to get pregnant. She wants she's just trying to get anyone to impregnate her, but she can't because she doesn't have a uterus and etc. But the whole novel, her ultimate desire was to be pregnant, to have the the finale be a giant like cosmic horror worm put into her that she gives birth to. It yeah, it felt like a a conclusion that tied back to yeah, there was a yeah, it was a fucked up way to tie that loose end.
SPEAKER_00Sure was. Yeah. Um, which scene in the book shocked you the most? You the first time reading it was a hot minute ago. Do you remember what you were like, ugh?
SPEAKER_01I think because it had a it was the trigger warning preceding it. I think Vanya with the fox is the most and I think that one is one of the most poetic as well. Like in terms of poetry around disgusting things, the description of her gaz tells them to go to the forest and find some foxes and to find some fox shit because she knows there's gonna be some parasites in it that she wants, and eats it and puts it inside her, and it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever read, and it's good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is it's it's really good. That bit of that is very shocking, I agree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then that scene of them shoving the shit inside of them, followed by Frankie shitting out so many worms, and that mirror image, it is stomach churning and beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's one of those like you're allowed to do this moments for sure. For me, it would be the um the Vanya Mom massacre scene because Rumfit set that up so smartly, where like um I don't remember his name, but he is leaving the support group and he's walking home with a friend and he's like going off about like, I love having this friend with me, I feel so safe. Like, and you kind of get this glimmer of hope in his life and his like identity struggle and his sweet father. He almost gets caught in the door and he almost gets away. There were so many parts in that scene where my like golden retriever ass was like, something good's gonna happen, and he's gonna get away, and like like things are gonna be okay, and justice is gonna be served. Um, and she's gonna go to jail, and none of that, none of that happens. And I was like, damn it. But then I after reading it, I was like, what did I expect? This isn't a Nicholas Sparks.
SPEAKER_01The only happy good characters, they're gonna Yeah. It's funny that the of my and our both of our most shocking moments were things that were preceded by like a little bit of like levity. Like yours was like, okay, the one oasis of like some nice characters and comfort, and then the the murder of them felt stronger afterwards, and then mine is like there's like a little break of like you should just go have some tea and like have a little moment and then come back to this, and it'll be more intense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's so funny, so true. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on about this book?
SPEAKER_01I like that this book had scenes that I still don't fully understand. Like, I think I I like a lot of books that like I understand about 80% of what's going on. Like it's a good like amount for me. I like to be a little bit confused, I like to be a little bit thrown off by stuff. And the scene of Vanya, there's one chapter where Vanya is having some delusions, they're basically saying that time is like warped for them and all this time that they're spending with Gaz, they're like drugged up, they're having different parasites put in them every couple months. And it goes into them seeing their life as players on a stage, and it's a very conf I've read this many times and I still don't fully understand everything that's happening. Yeah, and it's so interesting. Like, I've this is a passions that's different from anything I've ever read before. Where there's like speaker one, active monsters, and like speaker two, and it's almost like they're retreating into their mind, and everything that's going on around them is just like feels external to them. Um I I almost think with that section that it's different aspects of Vanya's psyche coming out and say saying things there's it's very disconcerting, but also discombobulating, dissomething. It's it throws you off so well, and it feels confusing, and it feels like a 17-year-old kid who ran away from an unsafe home to be with a predator who does awful things. Allison is taking us on a literary journey that we don't really know what we're what what's happening, we're confused, but we're kind of just like signed up to go along with it. It kind of puts you in the place of like the powerless 17-year-old who's like, I'll just like go with whatever's happening. I like not fully understanding what's going on there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think a confusing book too makes it more enjoyable to come back to, makes it more like rereadable because your interpretation in 2022 might be different than in 2026. Um, and I think that really speaks to like her expertise in her art. Um, well said. Um, but where can um that's that's all we got for the episode, pretty much. Um, where can people find and and follow you, David?
SPEAKER_01Instagram is probably the social media that I use the most. So probably Instagram d-A-V dot L A C is my handle on Instagram, and this will probably be posted on on that as well. I mean, if you live in Edmonton, come to my choir concerts. Um when I yeah, when I finally write things that are more shareable than all the things to plug, I think.
SPEAKER_00Perfect. Okay, great. So yeah, make sure you're following and so you can stay updated about all of the art and things and thoughts and um photos and life updates from David. And thank you so much for doing this and being in the episode.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me. I had all of the time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, good. I'm so glad. And um, listeners and watchers, let us know what you thought in the comments uh about anything and everything, and uh, we'll see you in the next episode. Bye.