Good People Are Quietly Quitting: Ethical Leadership, AI Strategy & Why Culture Determines AI Success | Carly Caminiti

Ethical leadership and AI strategy collapse when the people executing the strategy are quietly burning out — Carly Caminiti on why culture determines healthcare AI success.

Healthcare innovation leadership stops working when the people who execute the strategy are quietly burning out. Carly Caminiti, an ICF-certified executive coach and creator of the 5C Leadership Performance System, joins Chris Hutchins to examine why healthcare's best people are disengaging, why AI adoption amplifies the problem, and what ethical leadership in healthcare requires when strategy depends on humans who are under-resourced.

What We Cover

• Why "quiet quitting" is a governance signal, not a workforce trend, and what it reveals about leadership capacity
• How executives promoted for clinical or technical skill end up running teams without ever learning how to lead
• The 5C Leadership Performance System and why healthcare organizations need a repeatable framework, not more off-site retreats
• What happens when AI transformation lands on top of existing burnout, and why technology strategy is fundamentally a people strategy
• How to identify the high performers who are about to leave before they tell you

Key Takeaways

• The healthcare leaders who will survive AI transformation are the ones who invest in the people executing it. Tools do not fix culture. Culture determines whether tools get adopted.
• Ethical leadership in healthcare is not a values statement. It is a weekly operating practice visible in how communication, feedback, and decisions happen across teams.
• Retention is a leading indicator of AI readiness. Organizations that cannot hold onto their strongest people will not have the capacity to absorb AI-driven change.

Frameworks & Tools Mentioned

• 5C Leadership Performance System (Caminiti's 12-week executive coaching framework)
• ICF (International Coaching Federation) certification standards
• Executive coaching methodology for healthcare leaders
• Burnout detection signals
• Communication frameworks for team performance

## Timestamps 00:00 Introduction: The quiet quitting signal leaders are missing 03:00 Carly Caminiti on why culture eats AI strategy for breakfast 09:30 Ethical leadership as the prerequisite for AI adoption 16:00 AI leadership strategies that actually retain talent 22:45 Leadership ethics when automation changes the work itself 29:00 AI coaching for leaders: what it looks like in practice 35:30 Why quiet quitting is an AI governance signal 41:00 Building organizations where ethical AI and ethical leadership coexist

About Carly Caminiti

Carly Caminiti is an ICF-certified executive and personal development coach who works with healthcare and corporate leaders to build performance without burning out their teams. She is the creator of the 5C Leadership Performance System, a 12-week coaching program designed for leaders who need a framework they can actually apply, not another leadership theory.

Related Resources

• Episode: Healthcare Leadership, Operational Reality, and System Signals with MarKeisha Snaith
• Episode: AI Ethics and Ethical Leadership in Healthcare with Asha Mahesh
• Episode: The Human-AI Leadership Equation with Larry Kuhn
• Topic: Healthcare AI Strategy
• Newsletter:

Transcript

Carly Caminiti: 0:00

If you have high-performing staff that are deciding to leave the company or they're being forced out of the company because of them just feeling like they just can't anymore, then that's when the company ends up losing a ton of money when they could have just invested it properly in their team in the first place. And that will again keep happening over and over until the leaders at the top start making more sound financial decisions about how to support the team.

Christopher Hutchins: 0:27

It seems and feels like a responsible financial decision, but in actuality, they're not actually looking at the entire cost. I've seen that sadly too many times as well. Carly, welcome to The Signal Room.

Carly Caminiti: 0:38

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Christopher Hutchins: 0:40

I'm so excited to talk to you today. We've had a couple conversations and it's remarkable. It turns out we've known some people in common, and actually one of them was on the show a while ago. And as we spoke the other day, I was fascinated hearing about what you're doing. It's very timely and very relevant. As we kind of talked about the fact that we are in a really interesting transition or transformational period with all the stuff going on with AI. And I think because it's moving so quickly, we're losing track of some things that are kind of important, and it really starts with people and relationships, which obviously is your area of expertise. So I'd love for you to just talk a little bit about what you're doing. I know you're doing a lot of great coaching and you're supporting executive teams, but there's a lot more to it. And I'd just love to have you talk about that a little bit. Then we'll dig into some of the things that you're seeing that are concerning and what we can do about it.

Carly Caminiti: 1:41

Well, you know, it kind of reminds me because I was just talking to a friend of mine who is an AI expert, and she is also a previous client of mine. And she said, you know, Carly, I think your job is actually AI-proof. And I said to her, what makes you say that? And she said, well, thinking about AI, there's nothing that can replace a real coach. And I've thought about this a lot. There are a lot of people who try to use AI for coaching, for counseling, for any sort of advice giving, and it's just not the same. So I thought what she said was brilliant. And it makes me think about your question of what I do. What I do is partially what AI can't. I look at people for who they are and can listen to their emotions and empathize with them. And that is something that is being taken away by AI.

Christopher Hutchins: 2:33

That's a huge point there. I mean, it doesn't really even listen to you. We talk about things like ambient listening, but it doesn't interpret things the way that human beings want to interpret them. It's not going to pick up body language, it's not going to feel anything. That's a really significant thing. I think we need what you do a lot more than we have ever needed it, to be honest.

Carly Caminiti: 2:58

Well, I mean, I think if you look at it, people are constantly wanting to feel seen and heard. That's just a normal part of being human. And so while we can look to technology to help us in certain times where we don't have another human next to us, there's also just so much benefit to having that other person there. So what I'm trying to do is be there for leaders. And it doesn't matter what organization or what kind of field we're talking about. No matter what kind of leader they are, that implies that they're having a ripple effect on their entire team. And if their team doesn't know how to regulate their own nervous system and they're just being run ragged by whatever system they're working in, then that's exactly where coaching can fit in. And so I think when we think about people's sustainability of working in a job and why a lot of people are unhappy, a lot of it has to do with the fact that they're not even given the tools to be able to regulate their own stress. And there's not enough importance being put on that now because it's just kind of the norm that you're just given one more thing to do and expected to do it because you're a high performer.

Christopher Hutchins: Yeah. And I think we've not done ourselves a lot of favors in the last several years, and we've gotten even more dependent on technology. And unfortunately, there's just this layer with social media between people. Some of these basic concepts are just being largely ignored, and people don't even realize the kind of deficits they actually have. It's really important for someone to be able to talk about this and make sure that the leadership teams are understanding what people are really going through. I think there's probably a disconnect, and it's one of the things I was wanting to hear you talk about today: 4:05

the workforce reality gap. There's this disconnect between how leadership defines workforce stability and how the frontline actually experiences it. I think there are so many layers in between. I don't know where it all gets lost, but I think there's definitely an issue that needs to be brought to the forefront sooner than later.

Carly Caminiti: 5:05

I think what's missing is a conversation. Because you can do all the surveys you want, all the staff satisfaction metrics, you can look at those and they can look good on the surface. But then you actually talk to a frontline worker, you talk to somebody who's working in a hospital, and they might have a completely different take on what it means to be fully staffed. So leadership from their perspective, they might think, okay, we're in a good place, we're fully staffed. And then you talk to somebody on the front line and they're going to say, are you kidding me? This is what fully staffed is? And I've talked to people who work in healthcare who say that they've never even heard anybody say "we're fully staffed" in the nursing field specifically, because they're constantly being bombarded with new things to do, new layers. You add in AI and the technology that they need to use in everyday interactions with their patients that they didn't have to use before. And while some of that is good because it can create more time, in other cases, and depending on the person, if they're just one step away from feeling so burnt out that they're leaving, adding in more technology might actually do more harm than good.

Christopher Hutchins: 6:19

Right. Burning out is one of those words we're hearing a lot more, particularly in the healthcare space with nursing and physicians, to your point. You touched on something that reminds me of how what you do is actually so unique in how you actually work with executives, because you talk about interacting with some of the staff. Talk a little bit about that if you would. I think that's an interesting thing. And I'm hoping that as our listeners are hearing this conversation, it maybe inspires them to think about how they could actually be getting some support in areas that maybe they don't realize they can get.

Carly Caminiti: 6:57

Well, I think just kind of backing up to looking at a Gallup poll, the Gallup poll last year said that about 20% of people are actually engaged in their job. 20%. So that means 80% are somewhere on the other end of the spectrum. And so when you combine those numbers of where everybody sits on the chart, it can look pretty good. If there are a lot of people who are putting a seven or eight on the scale, and then you've got a bunch of people that are putting a two on the scale, it's going to even out. And unless you have the right people in leadership who are actually going to be smart enough to not just look at the results as an aggregate, but kind of drill down into what are these 20% of people saying, what are they experiencing? I think even with surveys or with the way that we are interacting with each other nowadays, we oftentimes just look at people as not even people. We look at them as kind of units that are working for us in a spot in our budget. And we don't remember that they actually have a whole lot of thoughts, feelings, beliefs that they're dealing with every day, in addition to the struggles of being a human. And so until we kind of give people credit where credit is due and see them for who they are, that number is going to keep at 20% until we actually start to have conversations with people to say, how can we make your job actually better? And burnout is contagious too. If there are people on your team that are a step away from leaving, then it's going to infect the whole team dynamic. And so part of what I'm doing with teams and part of my belief about all of this is that you really need to look at the individual in order to affect team culture. If people don't have the tools to be able to regulate their own stress individually, then the whole team is not going to have the tools to regulate their stress as a team. And with coaching, with being able to bring it back to the most human basics that one could even think about, like breathing is one of them. Breathing is the tool that uses our own body. That's the most basic software that we have. And everybody has it installed already. We don't need to learn something or go listen to something or go read a new book in order to understand how our lungs can work. But there are so many people that you talk to that say, oh yeah, breathing, yes, I know, if I take deep breaths it'll calm me down. But they don't actually put that into practice when it could be the deciding factor between them being able to feel calm and collected before a meeting or them feeling like they're spiraling out of control. So going back to some of the basics of what we've already got with our human nature, to say let's tap into this and actually activate it and have some accountability and do it in a group setting with other members of our team. What I've seen in working with folks is that the results are just exponential. The burnout goes away. People feel more satisfied. People understand why they're doing the work and why it's important and why they are important in that particular organization. And so I think unless there are some mechanisms or systems put into place for people's leadership to improve, then it's going to just be a problem that proliferates over and over again with people's dissatisfaction in their workplace.

Christopher Hutchins: 10:32

Yeah, that's a powerful realization. People are oftentimes not even aware of some of the stresses and anxieties that they're carrying and how it's impacting them. And if there's not at some point where somebody is able to have that conversation with them, just like you described in groups, they are not even likely aware of just exactly how close to burnout they are. And then all of a sudden, just some easy conversation from someone who knows how to do this unlocks the stress and they feel that release. And it's not some sort of magic drug or something. It's just something as simple as remembering to breathe. It seems like an odd thing to say, but I've experienced the challenge with that on my own a few different times. I would have appreciated, particularly during the pandemic, if someone was really thinking about that, because I would have probably tried to help my own teams a lot more than I knew to going through that period. There's a point that you touched on there really about the design concept. We're talking about design in the context of technology and systems a lot, like AI. But at what point does a staffing problem actually become a system design problem? Because I think what you're describing, there are some systemic things that have to be in place long before you can introduce technology.

Carly Caminiti: 12:12

This reminds me of a conversation I had last week because part of what I do is I also talk to CEOs and other senior leaders in organizations in order to get a read on what's happening in different types of organizations. And one of them said to me, yeah, in my circles with other leaders that I talk to, they don't care at all about firing people. They just say, okay, how fast can we get them out so we can get somebody else in? And that's how they look at the human. And so what happens is they end up replacing the human, which is extremely expensive. Extremely expensive to find somebody else, to get them onboarded. You've got institutional knowledge that just walked out the door. So you're bringing somebody else in and starting from zero. By replacing somebody, you're actually having a huge impact financially on the organization, and they just don't care. And that last part is what is the really important part. Where is the care? Where is the care about the human person? Because we can keep replacing people into these roles, but what's going to happen? They're going to burn out too. And so that's to me when it becomes a systems problem, when you know you've got multiple people either on the same team or within the same role that all decide to leave. It's a leadership issue. There are a lot of people out there who have really poor leaders. And the leaders might have gotten there because they're good at their technical skill. Like maybe they are a good doctor, so they end up rising in the ranks, or maybe they're a good plumber, so they rise up in the ranks. But just because you're good at what you do doesn't mean you're a good leader of people. And I think that's where the design part needs to be looked at a lot more closely. Because if you have high-performing staff that are deciding to leave the company, or they're being forced out of the company because of them just feeling like they just can't anymore, then that's when the company ends up losing a ton of money when they could have just invested it properly in their team in the first place. And that will again keep happening over and over until the leaders at the top start making more sound financial decisions about how to support the team.

Christopher Hutchins: 14:26

Yeah, I mean it seems and feels like a responsible financial decision, but in actuality, they're not actually looking at the entire cost. I've seen that sadly too many times as well. There's this other gap that you touched on too. A lot of organizations that I've interacted with over the years have a real challenge in terms of having career ladders for people who are really solid individual contributors, particularly when you get into technical roles. But I think it's probably true in a lot of different ways. There is this practice where, for better or worse and mostly worse probably, the only option to advance their career is to give them oversight responsibilities or managerial responsibilities. But oftentimes we're not really teaching them some really basic things about what a human being actually needs in the workforce. I don't think I've ever had that kind of conversation outside of something that was really deliberately set up for me from a coaching standpoint, just one-on-one.

Carly Caminiti: 15:31

It's a really great thing that you can see that because a lot of people can't. A lot of people will say, oh, everybody here is fine and our organization's thriving. When, you know, they can see they track things via numbers. So if the profits are looking good, they think the people are good. And that's where there's a huge mistake being made because they're not, again, looking at the people for people. A lot of times people will talk about not being able to be their full selves when they walk into work and they've got to leave some of their identities behind. And nobody likes to feel that way. And so what you're talking about with the managerial gap, that causes a lot of imposter syndrome in people. And they start to feel, even if they do get promoted because of a technical proficiency that they have, they don't get the managerial training and then they end up feeling like they're not good enough. And then they start questioning, why did I get this promotion in the first place? And then they end up walking out the door because they don't feel like they were actually up to snuff on the job that they were doing. Again, this is something that in hindsight, if the organization actually valued people, whenever people got promoted, they should get a coach, in my opinion. And I'm here to say my opinion. So that's my opinion. They should get a coach and they should get quality managerial training because you cannot just throw somebody into the deep end when they've got a promotion and they've got other people underneath them. It is a huge gap in training and development of leaders.

Christopher Hutchins: 17:06

Yeah, I've worked with a couple of different organizations that I think have done a pretty decent job of really putting some things in place, identifying people who they think are potential candidates for leadership roles. It's not consistent across any industries that I've seen, but there are some that do a reasonably good job of at least identifying people who have potential and giving them opportunities to get this kind of training before they throw them into the deep end of the pool. But it is a big gap, and it's so important because the first layer of oversight is where we probably have the biggest risks. We have people who are in these really public-facing roles. They're interacting with people one-on-one, large scale, whether it's retail, whatever industry we're talking about. These people need support. They need someone who actually understands what they need and can really help them navigate things on a day-to-day basis. It's not just enough to be able to tell them what to do, what not to do, or get a column on making mistakes. There's just basic human support that we need. What are you seeing in terms of the levels where these things are so critically out of whack? What do we do about it? Because I don't even know that people understand what we're doing to frontline staff sometimes.

Carly Caminiti: It's a great question. I think the answer for me is people tend to look at this backwards. They tend to cut leadership development when budgets get tight. And that's the exact opposite of what should be done. If you have a company, for example, that has a mass layoff, there are people still left standing at that company that lost their friends that are no longer working there, might have lost their supervisor, depending on who got laid off. Regardless of who got cut in whatever the layoff was, the people who remain standing there, now their psychological safety is completely under threat. They're now going home every day wondering if they should look for new jobs. They're wondering if the day's going to come where their name is next on the chopping block. And their stress level is going to go through the roof. So while people are thinking about layoffs, if that's actually on the table, they should also be thinking about what are we doing to support the people who are still going to be here at this company? Because you can't put a line item on the cost of somebody not knowing how to have a hard conversation with their employees, or the cost of a team not trusting its leadership, or the cost of three people who decide to leave because they just can't handle their boss anymore or can't handle the workload anymore. And all of that goes so undetected because on exit interviews or even on the staff satisfaction surveys, people don't feel like they can be honest. They are fearful now because of what has happened in this country and in the industry. They know that if they want to continue working there, they've got to keep quiet and keep drowning in their own misery. And that is so dangerous. And when we talk about the healthcare industry, it's so dangerous because then your staff satisfaction is now bleeding into your patient care. And if people are feeling overloaded and like they're not feeling supported and like they're just running on fumes, then that's the energy that the patients are going to pick up on. And they're going to feel more rushed when they're dealing with the patients because of that exact thing: 18:41

they have numbers to meet, they have targets to hit, they're short-staffed. Their leaders are saying, okay, well, we just are going to be a certain number of people short-staffed today, and we just need to keep going. They don't get a pay raise, they don't get a pat on the back even. It's just kind of the way it is. And so burnout doesn't happen overnight. Burnout happens from chronic stress that goes unnoticed for a long time or goes unaddressed, either by the person individually or the organization.

Christopher Hutchins: 21:29

Yeah, you mentioned the surveys. I had a really great team that I was privileged to work with when I was in New York. And one of the things that we talked about with my management team, when we're looking at the surveys, yeah, it's great when you get high marks. But of course we look at that, we want to celebrate the good things, but then we look at the areas where we have some real significant things to work on. We had to almost invent them, which was surprising because people were actually giving us really good feedback. And we just, there were three of us that worked for actually two or three different bosses, but we just put everything together so that we could collectively really try to manage a function regardless of who reported to who. We just wanted to make sure that we're paying attention and supporting the team. The area that I tended to spend the most time on was the middle-of-the-road stuff. Primarily because if we're not doing enough to even move the needle, that's a problem. And we're just one mistake away from hitting a bump because we're just not motivating people the right way, we're not paying attention to something. I don't really hear a lot about that, but I think there's probably a lot of it. Maybe talk about what you think the perception is for an executive that's reading their engagement scores versus what the reality is from what you see on the ground. And then maybe talk about some of the stuff that just seems to be hidden and not moving the needle enough.

Carly Caminiti: 23:20

Yeah, I'm smiling because I think that we just have to use common sense. Because we all have probably filled out a staff satisfaction survey where we haven't told the full truth, whether out of fear or just trying to be nice or whatever the case is. There's something that happens with staff satisfaction surveys where people just feel like they can't be truthful. When I have spoken to HR directors, some of them know this and some of them don't, or they're just ignoring it. The ones who don't know or the ones who are ignoring it are the ones who just want to think that everything is going swimmingly at the organization. If you have anybody who says to you, whether it's a CEO or an HR director or what have you, that says people here aren't burnt out, they're completely out of touch with reality. They have absolutely no idea what's going on with their staff. If you look at big surveys across the globe, it looks like about 75% of people would say that they feel burnt out. So if your staff satisfaction surveys aren't showing those numbers, then there's something going on either with the question in the way that it was asked, the people who don't feel safe talking about it, or something else. But a CEO's reaction to whatever is being said on those metrics needs to be really looked at with a fine-tooth comb to say what's actually happening beneath the surface. Because when we look at why people leave their jobs, it's oftentimes because of their boss. And you talked about looking at the middle stuff. To me, team trust is not built in big moments. There's not a moment where you as an employee walk into a meeting and say, okay, great, I feel so much trust for this team and my leaders. That just doesn't happen. Trust is built in many, many small ways by repetitive actions that your leaders are taking. So if your leader is just not even visible on the floors of that hospital, if they're not in it with the doctors and nurses and everybody else who's making the hospital function, if they have no clue because they're not really roaming around and seeing it firsthand, then again, they're going to be completely out of touch with what's actually happening inside of their organization. So unless you are actually conversing with the people who work there and really caring about what they're saying and doing something to address their concerns, then your obliviousness is going to cause the burnout to rise in the organization. And I think a lot of people underestimate the power that the leaders in the company have. So even if the organization might have a culture of "don't work when you're off work," but then you've got people who are texting you asking questions about previous patients or whatever else while you're off work, what kind of message is that sending? It's usually from a superior too who might have questions about something, and they're talking to you on your time off. So it's these mixed signals that can be given to folks. "Oh, we care about you and we want you to have time off and we understand that this job is really hard," but then people sometimes unfortunately break boundaries. And what happens is that these workers then just keep their heads down, they do their job, they respond to their leader who is texting them off hours, and that's it. And so when these people stop talking, that's when the system really starts breaking down. But it happens first with the relationship between a supervisor and supervisee.

Christopher Hutchins: Yeah, I actually had a conversation at one point with an executive I just admired. I didn't work for him myself at the time, but I just asked him. He always seemed to be telling stories about his kids. He's doing things with them all the time, very active, but a really successful guy. He was at a very high level in the company. And I said, what is it that you do that really kind of protects that time? And he said, well, I mean, I have a demanding job, but there's a start and stop time on my day and my phone. And once that time comes, it gets shut off and put away. He said if everyone's asleep and I've got things I'm thinking about, I might draft a few emails, but I don't send them until the morning because I know if people get an email from me, they're going to jump out of bed and go do it. And I thought that's profound. And my boss was sitting on the other side of me, and I just asked: 26:59

if I handled things the way he's handling it, would I still be employed? And I was told no. It's the exact kind of scenario where these expectations are there and we don't realize how easily we start to concede on boundaries. And that would be a whole conversation unto itself, I imagine. I mean, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, and how can leaders be more intentional about encouraging their teams? Because let's face it, any company's going to take as much as you want to give them. I think there are some generational differences that come into play too, because what you just described with your friend is easier for an executive to make those boundaries and keep them than it is for an entry-level worker.

Carly Caminiti: So there's a huge gap between the privilege of being able to decide "I'm not going to work at 5: 28:45

05" versus somebody who's new to the organization. And it truly is looked at like that. The people who are higher up do have more privilege and are able to keep their boundaries more. What you're seeing now, especially with Gen X and Gen Z, is that they are really starting to say, you know what, I've got some serious needs and I'm going to make these needs known to you. And if you as a leader can recognize those needs and do something about them and meet them where they're at and what they're asking from you, then great. I think that there's been a shift in the culture in the last 15 years or so with people actually feeling like they can voice their concerns. But again, it really depends on the organization and their own psychological safety of feeling like they can tell their supervisor what it is that they need. I mean, it's great for your friend who's making time for his family and not sending emails at certain times, but that doesn't always work for people because they might feel that if they do get an email, like he was saying, people might jump out of bed and they really feel like they need to respond to it right away just because of the power dynamic. That's something that goes unaddressed too, and it is another reason that people need managerial training, because they don't recognize that there's even a power dynamic that exists. And I'm talking about senior leaders just thinking, oh well, if this is what I say and this is how I act, then everybody else is going to follow in line. And it's like, no, that's not true, because you can't be friends with them. If you're somebody's superior, then they're always going to be looking at you as if you have more power than them. And so that creates this very strange dynamic where the supervisor or maybe the CEO thinks that they are modeling this behavior that everybody else wants to latch onto. But in reality, people who are below them are seeing it and saying, no, I couldn't try that because of my position in the organization not being as important or my work not being as important. So there is a divide.

Christopher Hutchins: 31:03

Yeah, I've made mistakes a few times. Eventually I stopped beating my head against the wall because I realized I felt better when I didn't do that. But it was really that boundary setting. Because when you particularly change jobs, you want to make an impact, and it's just very easy, very slowly, like a frog being boiled to death because they just think it's warm. It's the same scenario. You start to make those decisions one at a time, and before you know it you're getting burnt out. And it's not anyone else's fault. Oftentimes it's just that we've not done a good job even setting our own boundaries in a reasonable manner. I think it's probably one of the reasons that people struggle when they're growing their career and there's family dynamics and they're trying to balance all that. Human beings need attention. They just do, and sometimes priorities get kind of mixed up because people are so motivated to be successful in their career. But I'd love if you could have met me when I was going through that. What would be some of the things that you would say to me? Because I know there are a lot of people out there that are early in their careers, they're going through some pretty significant shifts, and they could make some of these same mistakes. What would you say to somebody like me early in my career?

Carly Caminiti: 32:37

The first thing that was coming up for me is you've got to understand what's inside and what's outside of your control. And I think so many people create scenarios in their heads and then let themselves get bogged down by these scenarios that are completely not in their control. So even doing some sort of a Venn diagram or something where you're getting it out on paper and you're recognizing this is in my control, this is not, and being able to say, okay, so the things that are in my control, what are the steps that I can take? Even if it's the smallest step you can think of, it doesn't matter, but what's the smallest step you can take to get closer to what it is you want the outcome to be? And with all the things that are not within your control, you've got to let them go. And this goes back to the need for coaching and the individual being recognized, because we do not go to confidence school. We don't go to any sort of workshop or anything else. They don't typically say, okay, now you've got a new job, now you've got to go do 12 weeks of coaching. If it were my company, that's what I would have people do. But it's because you have to manage this stuff on an individual level. So what I would have told you back then is, look, Chris, there are going to be lots of things that are going to be completely outside of your control in this job. Even if you think you want to set a boundary, you might not be able to because of the confines of what that job actually is. But let's talk about the things that you can control. And there are so many people who take home work after they're done with their work for the day. They close their computer and they continue thinking about it. They continue talking about it. It becomes the conversation at the dinner table. Why are we doing that? Why can we not give ourselves a break from the thing that we're being paid to do versus the thing that we want to be doing, like spending time with our family? And so I think the conversation at the dinner table would be an example of something that you do have control over. And with you taking very small actions, as counterintuitive as this might seem, the smallest actions end up really becoming big ideas and big changes in you as a person, to be able to shift your mindset and therefore lead a happier and healthier life. But if you don't take the time to make the small changes, then your life is going to continue as status quo and you're not going to be happy and healthy because all you're doing is thinking and talking about work. I think a lot of people underestimate how much power they actually can have with the things that they're thinking about and talking about, especially outside of work, and how they're talking to themselves. The amount of negative thoughts that we have that go around our brains every single day is absurd. It's around 90% of our thoughts are negative. And if you can think about times when you've talked to yourself in ways that you would never talk to a child, for example, by saying maybe "oh, I'm so stupid" or "that was so dumb, how could I have done that?" Common things that people might say to themselves. And then you say, would I say that to a seven-year-old or a ten-year-old? And you would not talk to kids the same way that you talk to yourself. So how does that over time impact us as just humans who are trying to do the best that we can? It has a humongous impact. So again, by changing the small things, by changing those moments where we start to really berate ourselves and turn it into something else, we're building new habits, new neural pathways that will allow us to be better people to ourselves. That's where it all starts. We can't be a great leader to a team if we can't be a great leader to ourselves. And it has to begin there. And organizations need to understand that, because burnout is something that only happens because of work. You do not get burnt out from your personal life. You might use other words, you might have other feelings, but the burnout in and of itself, the World Health Organization classifies it as an occupational phenomenon. So because it's a workplace issue, it requires a workplace solution. But that solution is about the individual, not about the whole entire company.

Christopher Hutchins: 37:05

Yeah, that number is staggering. I guess we all have a sense that we have negative thoughts a lot, but I didn't realize it was 90%. That's a staggering number and a really good reason to make sure these kind of conversations are happening.

Carly Caminiti: 37:19

It is. And it'll be even more staggering if I tell you the studies have shown that you have about 6,000 thoughts a day. So if you take 90% of 6,000, it's about 48,000 negative thoughts that you're having every day. So what does that do to us as a society when people are walking down the street, walking into the office or healthcare setting or whatever they're walking into, and this is the voice that they have going on in their head? And the only person who can change that is that person, right?

Christopher Hutchins: 37:52

Right. And we do things that subject ourselves to fueling that as well, whether it's social media, the news. There are so many different things that just constantly feed that pattern. We have to do things on purpose to break that, or it's not a happy life if you can't find those ways to release it. And I love that you're talking about it because I hope people are hearing this. You're not weird. You're not some rare person that's dealing with all this stuff. We're all dealing with it. That's just human nature. We've all got to learn how to manage these things.

Carly Caminiti: 38:36

Yeah, and I think that's why the team approach that I do with teams and organizations works so much. Because when they get into a room with other people for 12 weeks, in the 75 minutes that I have with them, the titles go away. That's the only place where, over time (it does take a couple of weeks) people start to feel like they can be vulnerable, like they can be honest, like they're not just answering a question on a staff satisfaction survey that nobody really cares about. It's a place where they can see the humanity in the other people and start to empathize with them as their boss, as their colleague, as another person. And it's only truly when we can start to see the goodness, beauty, dignity, and worth in the other person sitting on the Zoom screen across from us that we can start to change our reality. We can start to change our team and the company and the way we treat patients. And all of that again goes back to our ability to empathize, which is something AI cannot do.

Christopher Hutchins: 39:40

We're coming up on time. I can't believe how quickly it flies. I really enjoy hearing your perspectives and what you're saying, and I'm learning a lot already for myself. So if no one else ever listens to this, I don't think that's going to be a problem, but I'm learning, so I really appreciate it. I want to just have you talk a little bit before we get into looking out to the future and some interesting thoughts I'm sure that you have about where we're headed and what we need to be doing right now. But maybe talk a little bit about what it would look like for an executive who really wants to engage with you after hearing your approach and understanding there are some dynamics that they really don't have a handle on. What would an engagement look like?

Carly Caminiti: 40:41

Sure. Because the 12-week program works so well in reducing burnout and really preventing burnout and preventing people from leaving, that's what I'm focusing on now. It's a 12-week program called the 5C Leadership Performance System. I call that a system because that's what it is. It's not just conversations. It's not just feel-good, pat-yourself-on-the-back workshops. It is a system in order to give people a unified language for them to start thinking differently, and that ends up impacting themselves and the whole team. And there's data to back that up. So that is primarily what I'm doing. If people wanted to engage with me, I would be happy to have a conversation with them to see if it's the right fit for their organizations. The only people that are going to end up saying yes, this is the right fit for us, are those who have leaders that actually get it. And if they have leaders that understand, the ROI that comes from doing things like this is just massive. It is such a better return on investment for people to invest now, before people are completely burnt out, or when they're just starting to create a team. Maybe it's a Series A that's just starting and they don't have it together yet. This is the perfect time where people can say, okay, what can I do in order to create the leadership culture that I want here? And if they think it's just going to happen, there will be a culture that happens, good, bad, or indifferent. And so if they want some sort of control over what their vision is, then it's a great thing for them to invest in. Just going back to the ROI, I mean, you take the fact that if you can prevent one single person from leaving the organization and walking out with that institutional knowledge, it will be way less money for them to work with me than it would be for them to lose somebody else. So that's primarily what I'm doing. I do have a couple of clients that are just one-on-one, and those are usually CEOs, executive directors, or some sort of senior leadership role. That is a lot more one-on-one, really going deep into their beliefs and how they're limiting themselves in whatever it is that they want. If they want to be the leader that they have in their minds, a lot of times people can use a thought partner for that. So that's what a coach does. A coach doesn't give their opinion. A coach really just helps people by asking them questions and helping them figure out their own answers. And so that's what I like about it. It's not consulting in that sense. It really is just let's get on a call and talk this through and I can be a sounding board, but you're going to be the one to figure it out. And that's why they actually change. That's why it's sustainable. That's why there's science to back up what coaching actually is and does, because it's the person making their own changes. It's not me saying this is what you should do. So I'm happy to have people go to my website and they can find more information about what I'm talking about there. But I really think that this is the best investment that any organization could invest in for their team, because it will make everybody love their job that much more, which will help profits, it will help care, it will help whatever kind of outcomes you're looking for. It all starts with your employees.

Christopher Hutchins: 44:05

And they're listening. I'll make sure that all of this material will be available to you in the show notes. You'll know how to get in touch with Carly. But if you're a CEO and you're maybe not really sure if you're getting the straight talk that you need, maybe a phone call or an email to connect with Carly would be a really good move for you to make, to really start to make sure that you're getting the right story and you're moving in a positive direction with your team. Because we're at a time where trust is going to be the thing that makes or breaks us when we go through these kind of transformations. It's clear there are a lot of lines being drawn, and some of the technology companies are going so fast and they don't care if we're ready for it from a governance or any other perspective, frankly. So leaders need to take advantage of the opportunities while they have them. If they can get some good advice and learn some skills to really help your organization, I encourage you to do that. As we wind down, there are a couple questions I'd like to ask you. If you could change an assumption that leaders are making right now about their workforce, is there something that stands out in your mind?

Carly Caminiti: 45:36

Yes. The assumption that I would change for leaders to stop making about their workforce is that they're okay. They're not okay. Everything about the world is not okay for anybody who is working in corporate America right now. It is a very wild time and most people are in survival mode. So their brains are not even functioning properly because they're going to this primitive place of "how do I just keep my paycheck," and they're not able to even be creative or calm because they're just so focused on the stress. So yeah, the incorrect assumption would be that your people are okay.

Christopher Hutchins: 46:11

They're not. I guess I'll wrap things up. I would love to know if you had a bold prediction about 2026, whether it's in the workforce space, whether it's AI-related. One of the things that obviously I like to talk about is picking up the signal through the noise, and there's a lot of noise. Maybe highlight one or two things that you think we should be looking for, maybe even leaning into a bit.

Carly Caminiti: I think for me, two things come up. Number one, there's a lot of noise with AI. And I know that this podcast talks about it all the time and I know that people are constantly just comparing notes on which AI to use. All of that is true. And at the same time, it goes back to what I said at the very top of the podcast: 46:39

you can't replace human connection. And we all need human connection. So my prediction is actually that AI will push us back towards human relationships and focusing on seeing each other more, on picking up the phone more, on stopping with just having everything be in text. And it will really kind of bring us full circle to say, oh, actually, now I understand why it's so much better to be in a room with people than on a screen. Or, now I understand why it's so much easier to not have conflict with my boss when I talk to her on the phone as opposed to via email. And so I think that we're kind of going through this test of time to say, hey, we've got all these tools to put in your face to show you that nothing can replace human-to-human connection.

Christopher Hutchins: 47:55

This is one of the reasons I was so excited to have you come on. And I am going to do everything I can to make sure that your voice is out there. What you're saying is really important. Your voice is an important one for people to be listening to, and I can't thank you enough for coming on the show and being willing to have this kind of conversation with me. It's very timely, it's very much needed, and I look forward to seeing your continued success. And I know your business will thrive, and I can't wait to hear more success stories. There are a lot more people that will be benefiting once they hear what you have to say, once they engage with you. So thank you so much for being on The Signal Room, and I can't wait to hear from you again. I know that we didn't scratch the surface of some things that we probably need to talk about. This is not about technology, to your point early on. It's about people and relationships.

Carly Caminiti: 48:55

Well, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure, and I wish you all the best as well and continued success with The Signal Room.

Christopher Hutchins: 49:03

Thank you. That's it for this episode of The Signal Room. If today's conversation sparks something in you, an idea, a challenge, or perspective worth amplifying, I'd love to hear from you. Message me on LinkedIn or visit SignalRoomPodcast.com to explore being a guest on an upcoming episode. Until next time, stay tuned, stay curious, and stay human.