Can AI Save Someone From Addiction? (Inside the 3 AM Call) | David Sichel

What happens when someone struggling with addiction finally reaches out for help at 3:00 AM, but nobody picks up the phone?

In this episode of The Signal Room, host Chris Hutchins sits down with David Sichel, founder of Blue Shirt Media and a person in long-term recovery. David is pioneering responsible, highly tailored AI technology for drug and alcohol treatment centers, ensuring that when a person hits a life-changing "moment of clarity," there is always someone on the other end of the line.

They dig deep into why a missed call at a rehab facility isn't just a "lost sales lead", it’s a critical patient safety event. David shares how personal experience shapes his tech stack, how custom AI voice agents handle high-stress 3:00 AM crisis calls, and where human intervention must always take over.

Key Takeaways & Topics Covered

• Rebranding the "Lead": Why treating callers in addiction care like sales leads misses the human reality, and how answering immediately saves lives.
• Designing AI for Crisis: How Blue Shirt Media trains custom AI agents to handle slurred speech, hold times, and overnight distress with empathy and patience.
• Ethics & Responsible AI Governance: What real oversight looks like when automation operates at the most sensitive doorway in healthcare.
• The Human Escalation Pathway: Setting strict non-negotiable boundaries where technology hands the phone off to live admissions agents.
• Inactive Client Reactivation: Using compliant AI text messaging to re-engage former treatment center contacts that overworked staff can't reach.

Episode Timestamps

• 00:00 – The 3:00 AM Moment of Clarity
• 01:18 – Meet David Sichel & Blue Shirt Media
• 03:28 – Why a Missed Call is a Patient Safety Event, Not a Lost Sale
• 05:28 – Moving Beyond Off-the-Shelf AI to Custom Healthcare Models
• 08:45 – How AI Handles Slurred Speech, Hold Times, and Stressful Calls
• 11:58 – Human Handoffs: Where the Machine Stops and People Take Over
• 17:12 – Cutting Through Spam & Building Real Trust in AI
• 22:00 – Non-Negotiable Rules for AI at Human-Critical Touchpoints
• 28:23 – Engaging Inactive Clients Through Responsible Automation
• 29:40 – Where to Connect with David Sichel

Connect & Resources

• Guest Website: Blue Shirt Media
• Guest LinkedIn: David Sichel
• Podcast Website: The Signal Room Podcast
• Connect with Chris Hutchins: Find Chris on LinkedIn

Enjoyed this episode? Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help us share these critical healthcare conversations!

Transcript

Chris Hutchins 0:00

You were talking about that missed call at a treatment center. It isn't a lost sale, it's a patient safety event.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

If you and I were in Ellen Widgets somewhere, right? You and I would be talking about the leads that come in. But it's harder to put that tablet on a person, especially a person that's stuck in addiction. How do you call them a lead? So let's call them what they really are. People that had a moment of clarity that make a call that could save their life and nobody answers that. If nobody answers the phone, if it's a long hold time, a drop call, any of those things that could save a life. 90% of the people that call treatment center at 3 a.m. aren't usually sober at the time. So there's a whole lot of things that they say slurring words, getting a little upset. So RAIA trained to know that.

Chris Hutchins 0:47

Well, technology is not the solution. It's the tailored ones that actually help people.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Technology is not 100%. But then again, people aren't either. You bring a personal perspective to this work, and how does that lens change the way that you build? I was the person that sat in that CRM and waited for a call. We take the clients that are inactive, and then the AI text engages them with the idea of coming back to emissions. These are people that the treatment center can't call. Oh my gosh.

Chris Hutchins 1:16

Welcome back to the Signal Room. I'm Chris Hutchins. My guest today works at one of the most sensitive doorways in all of healthcare. The moment someone picks up the phone and asks for help with addiction, David Seichel is the founder of Blue Shirt Media, and he builds AI that answers and follows up for drug and alcohol treatment centers. What pulled me in is how he how careful he is about it. This is a conversation about doing automation responsibly when mistakes are a human life. Dave, welcome to the signal room.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Thanks, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here. And I really enjoyed our conversation on Friday also.

Chris Hutchins 1:49

I did as well. And I'm really excited for you to be able to share your story with our listeners today. Maybe just kind of start with the short version of who you are and what Blue Shirt Media does.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yes, so I'm Dave Seitschell. As we discussed on Friday, I'm a person in long-term recovery. I have experience before this uh situation happened, before I formed this company, I have experience with building another company that was a transport company that would take people to treatment. And when I was in there, like most things in life that happened to you, I saw the emissions department and how overworked them. But for COVID, and there was no anything, no certainty on how the protocol would be to take people to treatment. So I shut that business, and then what happened is I realized that later on, once AI came out, that there was a gap in the treatment. Uh that phone calls would go with mis without being answered, and P and emissions people couldn't get the calls. So AI, a pain point, and here we are.

Chris Hutchins 3:00

Yeah, the there was so much revealed to her during the during those early days of of COVID. Uh, you know, I I know people have been disrupted, you know, hearing what you're telling me about your having to shut down your business. I'm sure that was not a it there's plenty of stress in that, I am certain. So in our conversation Friday, you said something that really kind of stuck with me. And I really want to dig into this a little bit. You were talking about that missed call at a treatment center, like you just mentioned. It isn't a lost sale, it's a patient safety event. Unpack for me what's actually on the other end of that missed call.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, Chris. So for me, when I'm in this business, it's hard because not hard. It's it's rewarding. But when I when if you and I were in, let's say, selling widgets somewhere, right? You and I would be talking about the leads that come in. That's what we you and I would be discussing. But it's harder to put that tab on a person, especially a person in addiction that's stuck in addiction. How do you call them a lead? So let's call them what they really are. People that had a moment of clarity, that make a call, that could save their life, and nobody answered that. Oh my gosh, that's profound. Yeah. As you, you know, we discussed on our previous call, you know, when we talked last week, we discussed that there was only a certain amount of time that people and anybody that has that has experience with a loved one, a friend, a family member, whatever, an addiction, you know firsthand that person isn't ready until they're ready. So when their courage up or the will to, I don't, or the desperation, there's a million words I could use there, but we'll make it easy. When they finally that call, if nobody answers the phone, if it's a long hold time, a drop call, any of those things, then if nobody's on the other end of that, that that's the difference between that could save a life.

Chris Hutchins 4:57

100%. That's so profound. I'm glad you're glad you put it that way too, because we try to do our best, but sometimes that's not enough. And I and I just I love that you're you're putting this a clear focus back on the individual who's just had that moment of clarity and and we have to pay attention and we have to do better. If we're gonna use AI for good, we these are the types of things we have to keep in mind. So let's talk about you know that what kind of brought you to this. So take me back to how you ended up building this uh why treatment center specifically and why the front door.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Yeah, so what happened is it's a good question. What happened was I thought of the idea, and then what happened was I joined a platform called Go High Level, which a lot of people have heard of, which is a good platform. The issue for me that I had was that it does a lot of good things, right? A lot of things, but it's not perfect in anything. And I knew that for the importance of this call and the value of this call, I had to get agents answering that would be a hundred percent, right? Yes, that would be a model that I could roll out and people could listen and say, Oh, Chris, that's so empathetic. You know, uh that person really don't really they identify like an agent. They identify as an agent, but then you will never know once you start talking. That's the one I went to. So I did some work with a white label and I would, but I still wasn't controlling it. So I went in-house and started my own tech working on my own tech stack. So now it's me, a developer, a VA, and we're building our own custom models.

Chris Hutchins 6:38

You you bring a personal perspective to this work. Uh share as much or as little as you you like how does that lens change the way that you build?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Well, as far as what I built, I have this pressure or whip on my back, like thing, that I just never feel as good as anybody says it is, as great as an idea, as good as the product is, and it works really well that it's good enough. That it's always gonna, you know, again, let's not fool ourselves. As great as it is, and as great as everything is, it's still technology. And you, you know, you know technology. Technology is not a hundred percent, but then again, people aren't either. That's right. You know what I mean? But I believe it's such a gratification to know that even though I'm never happy with it, which it's never good enough for me, that at the end of the day, I'm building something that saves lives. And you know, as far as the personal perspective, I was that person. You know, we're gonna talk about in a few minutes about what we do lead reactivation, but you know, as far as the personal aspect, I was the person that sat in that CRM and waited for a call. So as on a personal perspective, my personal goals align with my business goals, and that is in my life, too, to help as many people as I can.

Chris Hutchins 8:05

I I love that, They I mean it that was Crystal Kerr, the the first moment we spoke that you've got a passion for what you're doing. I think that really matters a lot because people are in various stages of life. All of us are dealing with some really crazy times that we're living in, and all of us are experiencing very common things, and more often than not, they don't get any airtime. And I think it's just really important for people to hear how things really are so they understand they're not alone, and it actually is okay to reach out for help and how you're conducting yourself and driving your business, where you spend your time, what matters. It's a beautiful thing, and I really do appreciate how you do that. Let's talk about mistakes just a little bit. Most AI answering pitches are about efficiency in your world. The collar might be the worst moment at the worst moment of their life. What does that change about how the system has to behave in the first 10 seconds, for example, and in what uh what it's allowed to say?

SPEAKER_00 9:01

I mean, I mean there's a well first thing we yeah, and I I think I got your question, but first thing we say is on the call is we tell them that my name is Jody or John or whatever it is, guy girl. And this call is being recorded for quality purposes, right? We record that, go break that down right there. We record that call in case there's any questions for the treatment center, because we try to pass the data anonymously to the center, because you know, and again, we'll get into that, but into HIPAA and different privacy things, so we always stay compliant. So for the first 10 seconds of the call, it's just really and also we let them know, which I feel is a really good add-on, is that we send a text message at the end of it with their permission. If they say no, we don't opt them in to the text message with the call. So we say, you know, that you know, also we'll get a summary text message. And that text message, I just want to say, works twofold. First of all, the information goes right into the client's your this is all in real time, right? And then the other thing is that text message that we're talking about, we could also set if it's an overnight center, right? If that we're answering overnight, we could do one of a few things. We could a live transfer, which a lot of people prefer. It's hard to harder to do at night than it is at three o'clock, but at 3 p.m. But the other thing we could do is with that text message, we could send the client a reminder, or we could do an AI call, reminder to the client, 7 a.m., 8 a.m. whenever they open. Hey Joe, it's Dave. You know, you were speaking to us. We just want to let you know, here's the number to call. And the uh the center will also have the information. So the first 10 minutes, first 10 seconds, I'm sorry, the first 10 seconds, we're really getting information out of the way, and then we wait to see what's going on. You know, basic questions that we have. But I'll just say this too. As the call progresses, our AI agents are overnight answering calls and daily answering calls, are known, uh, know that a lot of people that call treatment center at 3 a.m. I would say 90% of the people that call treatment center at 3 a.m. aren't usually sober at the time.

Chris Hutchins 11:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

So there's a whole lot of things that they say, slurring words, getting a little uh uh upset. So our AI agents trained to know that to be to be slower. So I know I jumped a little bit ahead on that question, but yeah, so uh yeah, so that that's what our agents do. Yeah.

Chris Hutchins 11:43

Yeah, but I think it it leads naturally to the to the question around you know what are the stopping points. So you know, you're clear that it's not going to give medical advice, but walk me through where the machine stops and and a human uh becomes involved.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

So what happens is a human becomes involved a couple ways. The first way is we I would like to say we have all these programs and this and that. But what we do is we sit down with the treatment center and we say to them, look, Chris, what qualify, what do you what's a qualifier? You know, like maybe for a treatment center, it might be we accept this blue cross. I I'm just making but when do you what's your level? It's really you know, we don't we don't decide. What's your level on where the call needs to escalate to an agent? So that just leads me into this, which we had talked about on Friday, is that our the biggest misconception with that you know, we both spoke about it was is that AI is replacing people. Our AI is just a tool to answer more calls and to free up emissions people to only be able to react to the follow, you know, to the calls they want to react to. And take, you know, so what what's really we call it the bandwidth in the treatment center, which really reduces the band bandwidth and frees them up a little bit more, which we really like.

Chris Hutchins 13:11

Yeah, and very hard conversation. I think we we mentioned we kind of hit on this governance theater issue, you know, the councils that perform oversight without actually doing it um in a setting this sensitive. What does real governance look like versus the show version?

SPEAKER_00 13:26

When you mean real governance, uh do you mean like what we do on our part to make it is that what you're that is that where you're going? Like, well, we we you know we have to sign agreement, BAAs. Go ahead, I'm sorry.

Chris Hutchins 13:39

No, it it's really the rather than having these lofty conversations around governance and it's all an academic exercise, well, what does it actually look like in practice? So, for example, you have to come to some conclusions and build some rules around what the human escalation pathways are and what are the things that cause that to kick in. And these are decisions that have to get made. They're not, you know, oh, we'll just we'll just win the public works.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

And everything we were saying earlier about the call, how the moment of sanity, you there's no room for error in what you're talking about right there. So what I say is, and you know, I meant I alluded to it a little bit before, but what I say is that we don't we design what they want. Yeah, I do the we do the technical stuff, the prompts, and this and that. So you we sit down and we go over everything. First in our process is I'll build you a demo, right? And the demo will you'll it'll just be something I cop got off the web with your information, right? Right. So that's a demo. You listen to it, listen to her voice, his voice. I keep saying her, but male ages too. Listen to her, listen to the voice, tell us what you think. And I always say the same thing to people. It's part of my thing. I'm like, look, if it's not up to what you got, I I can't make, you know, it's never if you don't like the overall tone, there, you know, there's not much I can do to make you like that, right? You know, like in redundancy, you know, like it, you know, I know on certain models, and you've probably had experience with these personally too. Yeah, I think we did talk about this too. On certain models, there's a long pause between questions, and that is because the agent is looking in the database for right the knowledge base for the right information, right? Right, that slows the call down, right? So, what we do is we we just put it on. So, if you get a demo for us, what I was talking about, just talking about, if you get a demo for us and that's not sounding right to you, then we're not the right fit for you. You you need to find somebody else. Uh there's other people that do it, not you know, you can, but if you like that, then we sit there and we go in for the second phase, and that is all right, Chris, tell us what you want in an emissions person. Let me see, write me an FAQ. I have noticed in these things, even though with treatment it's a little bit different, but with these questions, 90% of the people ask the same questions all the time. You know, you can say they may say them differently or ask them differently, but what kind of treatment do you have? How long is the treatment? Can I bring my can I bring my girlfriend? Can I bring my dog? You know, can I bring Red Bull? There's a million things I like. There's a lot of questions like they'll answer that we can answer really quickly. So when it gets into the next stage is when they say, All right, they they have insurance, they're ready to come in. Let's transfer a live agent. And in that same token, we do also long hold times. Another thing, Chris, you you got the call, you know, and you're on the call and you're waiting five minutes, and you may be in we're in that same moment, right? Yeah, you may be disconnecting that. So we get on the lines, try to get information, bring it back to emissions, uh, you know, miss calls, drop calls.

Chris Hutchins 17:10

So, yeah. Right. Let's talk about the trust issue. So there's there's been I spent a lot of time talking with folks about trust, a lot from the you know, the the relationship standpoint, just because there's been such a really horrible decay in the relationship trust between human beings in the last couple of decades. Uh I won't belabor that, but but you you've seen some messaging channels being abused as well. So earning trust in this arena under the context of governance, I think, is what what I'm what I'm thinking of. Um, you you've seen like spam, fake approvals, vendors waving AI generated claims around. I mean, what does that abuse cost to legitimate operators like you?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Yeah, that just that that I believe. I've been really been self-employed for over over 40 years. I know I only look 30, so it's hard to say that.

Chris Hutchins 18:04

I was gonna say, bro, you look really awesome at 25, 30.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

He's gotta be lying if he's saying 40 years. I know that's what you would think. So um so the answer to your question is is that we put on a really good product, but I've been dealing with that kind of stuff no matter whether I was a kid hustling candy or you know uh, you know, onto this AI. But to your point, there is a higher abuse with this AI, and there's also a problem with people contacting treatment centers and home service business, everything about using their AI, you know, like people get contacted out a hundred times a day. Yeah, take you know, for so yeah. So as far as I'm concerned, there's always bad actors in everything. We don't, we don't uh everything for us has to be 100% clean. We want it to be right, want to be compliant, and we want to, you know, get our get our message out that look, you you know, you never have to miss a call.

Chris Hutchins 19:15

So here's a another interesting uh angle that you know I I wouldn't you I would hope would never be an issue, but but but it actually is and got back to the trust factor. How do you tell a center owner it's automated without had it sounding like you've put a robot between a desperate caller and help?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, I we don't have that problem. Our our people sound human, our ages, and I my bad, because I told you Friday I'd send you a demo and I never did. But or I would like your you to hear them too, but yeah, we don't sound anything like an automated automated robot, and that's been my whole purpose to get started. And the good thing about AI is AI has come a long way in the year I've been doing this, you know, just better, you know, more tools available, and uh the treatment center owner has to be on board, or the you know, head of business development or whatever their title is, has to really be on board and hear with this, like I said, a five-minute test before they go anywhere. And I expect people, whatever works for you, whether it be me or the next guy, that's fine with me. But I'm always gonna put my best report. But I can't tell you this as far as governance and that stuff goes. The agents to answer your question specifically, the agents a year ago to the agents today, and the agents in six months are so much better, so much clearer. Our agents learn so much. The agents that we have out there, you know, come in and we take information just not names and stuff, but information on anonymous data, and we run that into the AI to see where you know where we can improve. So we're always working on our models. We don't sit back and say, well, you know what, today we have the best model, and or you know, so we just keep going.

Chris Hutchins 21:16

It's important. Yes, but I couldn't agree with you more. And that's one of the things it's challenging for people to wrap their head around is if you're using software typically, there's cycles. So, you know, maybe there's an upgrade every quarter, every other quarter, there's you know, patterns like that. But this is a situation where the models are evolving almost on a daily basis. It's just it just needs a lot more uh eyeballs on it on on a regular basis than we've ever had to have before. So I mean, I I definitely appreciate the uh the approach you take to it. If we could zoom out just a little bit from the treatment centers, if you were advising any healthcare organization uh that standing up AI at a human critical touch point, what's the one principle you'd make non negotiable?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Human touch point. Let me see if I got that. So what you're saying is if I would, you know, a hospital or a doctor's office, anybody else outside the treatment space, what would I make a non-negotiable for a handoff, right? For uh live transfer. Exactly. Yeah. So I I would make sure it would first of all that the AI agent would identify itself as an AI agent. Right. That any disclaimers in the in the beginning recorded, you know, of course, healthcare, self-care. Any disclaimer, they are everybody's with HIPAA here. So any disclaimers that they have, recording, like we said, text message if that's the case. So in the beginning, I I would just kind of let people know that it's an AI, right? Before I went anywhere. Then I would get into the calling, you know, to the prompt. And I would write, uh, I would tell people, look, you would I would ask people, how far do you want to go with it? We can keep the AI engaged for 30 minutes. Or we can, if your idea is just answering the phone, times are busy, and just getting the call to a live person, then we can go really advanced. So I a non-negotiable for me would be no communication. I have to know from you what you want to do. Otherwise, it doesn't, I can't do it. I won't do it. Yeah, I love that.

Chris Hutchins 23:22

It's a crystal clear answer, man. We don't get those off enough these days, it seems. I appreciate that. I want to kind of look at another angle of it. You know, as we're we're we're coming close to the end of our time, but I want to make sure we hit a couple of really important things. Where do you think the industry is getting responsible AI wrong right now?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

I think it's hard for me to say that, as I am low grow low, I do follow AI things, you know, everywhere, but it's mainly from my software providers. So it's really hard for me to say where they're getting it wrong. The only experience I can give you is as a consumer. And I'll hear a I'll call an AI, I think with the city I live in, which we'll leave anonymous because I live here. But what you know, like it's a terrible AI. You know, AI, I think that if you put a product out, no matter what the business, home service, doctor, whatever it is, and it's not and it makes the person want to hang up, or if it makes the person just confused, then either one of two things, you don't care, or your callers don't mean anything to you. So I would say an incomplete product, people not taking the time to go over things. I really, Chris, only know from my perspective, and I know how hard we go over things, yeah, but it has given me the ability to test other AIs, listen to video, you know, to different AIs, and within 15 seconds, I could tell you whether they spent time preparing that or not.

Chris Hutchins 24:58

Yeah, that's uh it it's it's interesting. So I think being in healthcare from the majority of my career, I think that I've seen so many solutions that come in there, they are really narrow. They're tackling this much of a space that has a broader set of needs, and it just seems like we're picking and choosing these little components, but never actually solving the whole end-to-end. And it's just it's just really prob problematic to work that way. So you know, I I think this this whole idea of really making sure that we're developing things that are really fit for the purpose that they're that that they should be is it's just important. Cool technology is not the solution, it's the tailored ones that actually help people. So that's what really matters.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yeah, and yeah, and if I could add to that, I would just say that the most if your callers are important to you, and like if that's your first line of defense, which most people are for sales, yes, is your call. I mean, if you just want to save money, you can find um many models. You there's plenty of people that will do it, you know, uh really cheap, have a really cheap model. You'll get, you know, you'll pay less than maybe any major vendor would charge you. The problem is is with that is people know, you know, it's AI. Like if you're if your sign on your business is a $5,700 sign instead of an eleven thousand dollar sign, people might not know that. But if you're you know, so why I say that is because we build a done-for-you system, we don't build a piece of software and give it to you. You know, we do, you know, so I think that people know the difference. And as we go more and more and more people that say they, you know, never go to AI, go to AI, then we'll see even more. You'll know, and you know too. It's not just me. Everybody knows when you're calling a bad AI. You just want to talk to the agent right away. If my people, if people are calling my AI, and I have used it in other industries, if people are calling my AI and they're not and they're hanging up or they're losing calls, then it's just not the right product. Right. I'm not doing my job.

Chris Hutchins 27:15

So the last couple of things. So for someone who's running a center and they're hearing this and think, hmm, I think I might need to fix my front door. What's the first thing they should do? What do you mean, fix your did you say fix your front door? Yeah, they're they're they've they realize I I they need to fix the front door. What do you mean, what should they do? Should should they try to solve this with or without a vendor?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

What would you recommend? Yeah, I I would suggest that you would get somebody that that you feel comfortable with, that you trust, that you see information about on the web, you know, that you could research. But more importantly, with all that said, I say not just because it's the way I do it, but let them run a demo for you. I would say do you know, do that, see how it is. You know, it's proven that it will work in this industry, right? Uh so you know, just find your time, try a couple different people and see where you're the most comfortable. I hope it's me, but if it's not, you know, use the next guy.

Chris Hutchins 28:14

Right. Well, I appreciate that. Well, this between last Friday and today, our conversation. What's a question maybe I should have asked that I didn't ask? Did you want to speak?

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yeah, what I do want to say really quick, it'll only take a minute, is we do something else too, where we engage inactive clients, right? So every treatment center has, and this I really I said to earlier in the uh interview, I was saying that I was that guy. So, yeah, so we take the clients that are inactive, and what we do with them is we get the client uh commercially approved for text messages, and we send a text message to them, and then the AI uh text engages them with the idea of coming back to emissions. These are people that the treatment center can't don't have doesn't have the time or can't call. So that's something we do. Yeah. Very not a lot of people are doing that uh right now. We're one of the few, but you know, we're we're uh it's it's really important to me. Can help a lot of people.

Chris Hutchins 29:17

No, I totally get that. And it seems like an obvious place where technology should be part of the process that people think about. But I mean it's an area where I mean, I just love that you're taking taking the proactive step if not just leaving it to it and hoping that they're the the center is gonna do those follow-ups. I think that's a that's a differentiator from Wise. So where can people find you and where can they find out more about Blue Shirt Media?

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, so you can go to my site. I think we talked about there'll be a link there. It's blue shirtmedia.com. You can uh also uh you know go to my site, come there, read the blogs, read the information, call me. My you can call me directly on my cell phone. We'll go over anything you want to go over. And even if you're maybe not in the treatment space, but you're somewhat in healthcare and you want to find out some options, we really do talk to you know people that can use the service that doesn't even know it exists. So blue shirtmedia.com.

Chris Hutchins 30:19

Thanks so much, Dave. I really appreciate it. And for our listeners, you'll find all the contact information you you could ever need in the show notes, as always. And please don't hesitate to to reach out to Dave and his team at Blue Shirt Media. Dave, this has been an amazing conversation. Well, two days worth of it. The guests only get to the excuse me, the the our listeners only get to hear today's version. Um, but I very much have enjoyed our conversations and I look forward to continuing those. And thank you so much again for what you're doing. You're mission-oriented, you've got passion, and it's personal. To me, that's the winning formula to really make a difference in people's lives. So, on behalf of my listeners, I say thank you. Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. That's it for this episode of the Signal Room. If today's conversation sparks something in you, an idea, a challenge, or a perspective worth amplifying, I'd love to hear from you. Message me on LinkedIn or visit SignaroomPodcast.com to explore being a guest on an upcoming episode.