Why AI Governance Is a Human Problem with Arnaud Saint-Paul

Chapters
0:00 The claim: the human side of leadership beats the tech
2:31 Why AI multiplies a leader's existing challenges (×10)
5:20 Running the Heart Leadership Index on ChatGPT vs. Claude
10:03 What "coherence" really means (the orchestra before the conductor)
12:42 The fragmented-leader problem: your rollout inherits your chaos
18:02 The research: measuring coherence across 700+ tests
28:06 Defining "fragmentation" — order out of chaos
30:01 How fragmentation compounds and hits the bottom line
33:33 Why the downside can dwarf the upside in healthcare
35:17 Where to start: measure your team's coherence (free)
38:45 The next 3–5 years of AI + human coherence
42:16 The takeaway: coherence decides whether AI helps or scales the mess

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Signal Room. I'm Chris Hutchins. Quick thing before we start. I wrote a book. It's called Beneath the Signal, and it's about the human work behind trusted data and responsible AI and healthcare. If that's your job, go search Beneath the Signal on Amazon down and pick up your coffee. Okay, here's our episode. Almost every conversation about AI right now seems to be about governing the model. My guest today wants to talk about the thing that is actually underneath it, that no one is governing. Ourselves. Arm Ronald is a serial entrepreneur. He's built and exited many companies before, spending the last decade on a single provocative claim that the human side of leadership, coherence, judgment, trust can actually be measured. He built an instrument to do that, the Heart Leadership Index. And when he ran that index through several of the leading AI models, they disagreed with each other. Arnold, I'm really excited for you to be here. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on this show. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

It's amazing to be there.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Well, let's just jump right into some of the things that are top of mind. I know we're dealing with some high stakes when it deals with we're talking about leadership. It really doesn't matter what vertical you're in, it's a really important space to make sure that people are thinking about the human factors and the relationships. So let's talk a little bit about your journey, let folks know who you are, talk about your company and some of the things that you're really passionate about and excited because I think this is a fantastic time.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Thank you. Thank you so much. So the to give a little bit of a peek, I guess uh you know, I started that journey towards living through my heart when I was 13. But as an adult, I I started in finance and then technology because as also at the same time when I was 13, I started to code. And so technology has always been in my life, and uh more so that I created businesses around it and use use it as a vehicle to express myself and create different uh opportunities. The the journey has therefore been intertwined between the inner journey, you know, how to lead myself on one side, but also on the other, leading others, of course, but more importantly, how do to use technology for a purpose that was that felt aligned with what I am about. And uh that's how the the institute was born, the Heart Leadership Institute Tapuat. The uh what I have noticed throughout the years is that we're as good as not the technology, but more as ourselves, right? The and we see that so many times in different uh sectors, whether it's the army or or the sports or music, we see that the more alignment, the more coherence in a team, well, the better the outcome. So it's rather unique proposition, indeed, it seems, but it's actually very, very common sense. And I think everybody would agree that the more alignment I have within, or the more coherence I feel within, the easier is life in general, and more so our businesses as well. So it is all about embracing who we really are, but that's a different topic. Let's focus, let's focus back on AI and technology. What is a super important factor you are connecting to is that yes, technology is an amazing, powerful force to do good or bad for whichever, but let's say to do good to help us explore and and become and face all the different challenges we have in environment, in social, in financial aspects. However, if the leader that is part of these technology teams and organizations is in the first place fragmented or out of coherence, therefore the impact through technology is going to be fragmented and coherent too. And that's how we see the social media debacle or all the different negative aspects of technology. So the invitation here is what if the same way we're optimizing operating systems or technical systems to make sure that they work in a perfect way or the best way possible, we should look at the same from inner operating system viewpoint. Right. And in other words, finding a way to align ourselves further, and it is possible, this is what I've been working in the for the last four decades, to understand better what is our map, where how to measure coherence, and and also how to lead with it and abide by it. So that's the journey on which we are. One thing that you may find interesting. So in the last few years, I created uh an assessment called the Heart Leadership Index that helps individuals to know where they stand in terms of coherence according to seven different dimensions. We did the test of having the different AI engines to take it. Not a human in this case, but the you know, Sonnet on one hand, Opus on the other, ChatGPT 5.5, I believe. 5.0 it was. Anyway, you could see the shape along these seven dimensions, you could see the shape of coherence that were very distinctive between one engine and another, and which was so ChatGPT is more engineer-like, and you could see definitely the difference in the in the coherence mapping compared with cloud, which is more human-like in many different aspects. Anyway, that was just a curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

I think a lot of the challenges that I hear from people, no matter what part of the ecosystem they're in, is that there's this kind of a swing and a miss oftentimes because the understanding is just not shared. And it can be some of the most simplistic in terms of the way something gets defined. You know, how do you talk about things from a leadership standpoint in terms of how you want to lead your company? It's just a really interesting dynamic. I find the work that you're doing absolutely fascinating. Before we go too much deeper, there one thing I just want to ask you about that I thought was pretty cool. You started a financial literacy venture for kids. Tell us a little bit about that. I haven't heard that before. I think it's really exciting. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

The that was yeah, probably 10 years ago. I wanted to help children to learn, you know, it was the at the moment where cryptocurrency was quite a thing. And wanted to create a currency that will help children to learn how to save money, how to invest it, and so on, but from sustainable viewpoint. So, in other words, each time they would receive pocket money, they would have the ability to share part of that money to support a charity or to save or to invest in sustainable projects at their size, obviously. If it's 10 cents, it doesn't really matter. But to create that habit so that they can live in more abundance over time. So that is a venture that still works, not in the initial idea, but more sharing in schools how you know the different sustainable development goals of the UN and how to support them. And this way kids learn how to save money and to invest and so on in the school, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

That's phenomenal. I think it it's just one of those areas that just doesn't get enough attention. And they I think uh there's plenty of uh evidence. If you just take a walk around your local neighborhood, there's not a lot of understanding, first of all, that adults are functioning with, let alone are they really trying to figure out how do they make it real and tangible so that their kids start to develop this core competency? But I think what's so exciting is just that your focus could be on a number of different things. Of course, you deal with technology, but it's really the human side. But can you talk a little bit about what some of the early things that really ignited this drive and passion that you have to really start to figure out how do you aim things in the right direction and so that we're actually making a difference and helping human beings to actually learn and navigate and to use your word? I mean, that that they're coherent. I think you know, one of the things that I people say kind of out of you know, tongue-in-cheek, is see if I can put together a coherent sentence. It's just an interesting term, and I don't know that people really understand it.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Right. The when I I think it started more about trying to understand myself and figuring out that somehow this mind of mine did not really work the intended way. It was very unreliable. So I had to find another way to do things and hence this connection to the heart that as I was mentioning. So it was first and foremost a personal journey that lasted decades. And in on in that process, as I was discovering things for myself, then I would start sharing with other people because it would work with me, so therefore, why not with others, right? And so on that journey, I've always been looking at when I create a new venture, how does that serve the community that I'm a part of to help them thrive to the best of my ability? And it has always been indeed this constant journey towards sharing most of what I have learned so far. And then about 12 years ago, I had this realization, my life purpose being now to really help humanity to connect to that heart that I was mentioning earlier, and therefore help them to get onto that journey towards more coherence. And coherence is very simple. I think one metaphor can be when you go to a con a classical concert, before the director comes in, it's a beautiful chaos, right? Every instrument is being tuned and whatnot, and then the director comes in, and then all of a sudden you have coherence. In other words, you start listening to a symphony out of this chaos. So this is what coherence is about. It's another word is alignment. So when you have alignment between your thoughts, your actions, just to start that, everything flows. It's easy. When you have misalignment or chaos, obviously, well, we know what happens there. And from a business standpoint, you don't want that. You want you want as much alignment as possible. So coherence, flow as well, can be another word, is what really is about. And we can measure it, we can map it, we can create the conditions for it. And that's a bit what the my institute is about to show the mapping, the measurement, but also how to foster such conditions to have a business that thrives.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

More ETD. I love how you're putting this. I think the this the more common ways that people are dealing with their with AI and in their rollouts these days, they're it's kind of the opposite of what you're talking about. So your whole premise is like you're inverting the usual order of operations when it comes to AI, which I love. So you're essentially talking saying that self-governance and coherence are really the things that need to come before we start dealing with AI instead of afterwards. Yeah. What made you conclude that and what should organizations be doing to get coherent before it tries to start doing AI initiatives and trying to scale them?

SPEAKER_01 12:22

So AI is an amazing accelerator. Do we agree on that? Right? Absolutely. It's tenfold, maybe I don't know, business in general. Right. So you have leaders that before AI had a lot of different challenges because of the normal circumstances. They were not able to face all these challenges. Now AI comes and it multiplies by 10 the same challenges. Right. So how can you expect a leader to cope with so much more pressure than before? Right. That's why we are proponents of activating as soon as possible what we call the heart intelligence or this sense of alignment and coherence, because the more we are grounded in such coherence and presence and present to it, the easier comes the challenges to you and more importantly the solutions to it. So, because the thing is, if you are a fragmented leader, right, which is a leader that is not in coherence, therefore all the different choices you're going to make as a leader related to the AI implementation is going to lead towards more fragmentation instead of getting results you're expecting of. So I would say the game has heightened risks now. And therefore, it is much more important to clean up the house first and the leadership house, and then from there embark onto the journey of uh embracing more pressure, basically.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

So some of the things you've I know you've talked about, or really you've used the word chaos to describe things, but there's specifically a couple of things that you've pointed out before that you know if you scale AI on top of dysfunction, you're just automating the dysfunction. So talk a little about what that actually looks like when it happens. And you know, from what you're seeing and what you know the people you're interacting with, how do you help them to really put the focus where they could actually do some good as opposed to the just kind of reactionary thing where things are just happening to them?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yeah. The I read an article this morning, I think, which was where someone activated an AI system and spent $38,000 in one night of AI because it was an AI loop or whatever, right? So because of lack of presence in this case, the person did this, made a wrong choice, which activated this issue. It's not a big issue, but still it's $8,000. So we really want to have coherent systems throughout, right? And more so when we give them to AI to execute and continue the processes over time. And we need to have the right processes in place, the right guardrails and all that. Yes, 100%. But what if we do the same for ourselves, first and foremost? Because once we do that, then it becomes much easier for the the leader to not only lead the people he's working with, but more importantly to align with the right situation where these kind of uh events do not happen anymore. And that's what we observe with our clients, is that as they embrace the so we not only do measure and map coherence, but we also train for it, right? And we even certify coaches for it as well. So when we train them, when we train our clients, we see that as they embrace more coherence within themselves, then automatically the events that happen in the daily business world are also aligning faster and easier with their purpose, with their goals. And that's what I wish for every single business on this planet to embrace because it's much easier for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

I think it's important to talk about some things that you've done because I don't know that people really understand what's involved. I mean, this isn't just a hypothesis that you had one day and just decided, yeah, we're gonna start, you know, giving getting this out to anybody and everybody. You actually did a lot of different uh experiments, testing the methodology. You know, I know that some of the answers were not in agreement between the models and all those sorts of things. But can you just talk a little bit about what you did and what were some of the results that came out of it that just caused you to realize it's time to just double down on this? We this isn't it works, and it's it we have to start moving it forward.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Right. Well, actually, I I would like to start with the fact that the measurement did not happen at the beginning. I started sharing the methodology with CEOs one-on-one and seeing the results working for them, then doing the same for groups. Then I had to find a way to create a data stream that would show the the actual results that are happening for these CEOs. So it's not like I have a model or framework, and then I create a mathematical formula that works for that and done. No, it's part it's starting from experience, right? I think this is important because we're in a very highly pragmatic and practical environment here. So from experience, we derived a way to measure vertical development in a leader and a group and a team and an organization. And from there, from then on, several things happened. Not only did we work with companies of 15, 20 people for a year, where they we started seeing uh coherence growing from uh from our test viewpoint, but more importantly, also their KPI is starting to grow up to 600% in one case of uh new clients. So that was awesome. And and also now we're about to publish a paper, a scientific paper, that demonstrates how coherence. So in uh I think about 700 and change uh tests, we were able to demonstrate that coherence is indeed something that is mappable. And and the seven dimensions are not dis discriminant, but they are demonstrating that coherence. And so we're very happy to be able to share that with the world. The our purpose here is really to provide tools to the community so that they can embrace it for their own purpose, right? For their own, for their for their for them to thrive, basically.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

So the impact on trust, in my mind, seems to be something that's probably pretty measurable on that with this kind of work. Just talk about some of the things that you that you're seeing from a results standpoint. I think there's always this question about you know what kind of evidence do we have that this is going to really move the needle. So then I think you and I chatted a little bit about this the first time. It's really this erosion in human trust and in relationships. And you know, what you're doing seems to be taking aim directly at resolving some of those things before they become a much bigger issue.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah, we we we don't have a we do not have yet research that demonstrates that that shift. But we have information that has shown indeed that trust grows over time, individuals that practice our methodologies. We haven't been able to quantify it yet because again, we didn't have the the we want to have proper research. Now we are working with different organizations to put that together in the months and years to come so that we can demonstrate our objective is to demonstrate to the business world that when you embark onto more coherence alignment, it automatically brings more impact to financial, social environment. So, in other words, more performance. And indeed, culture trusts in an organization thrive as well in parallel to that.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

It's a fun thing to think about in terms of looking at certain things that are now becoming better supported by facts. I was talking with an executive at one point, and she was just talking about a predictor that they found for risk and readmissions, and it was the number of records they found the electronic health record on a per on a particular person. And I laughed because I used to work in a radiology department when I was at the front desk and checking patients in, I would see the orderlies come by with a big stack of volumes. And some of them had to be 10 pounds or more of records. And I just was like, huh, we've got AI to validate what we already could see with our eyes, which is interesting. It took us a long time to get there.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And and you know, the the fun part too, at least the way I see it, is that going. Coherence training and measurement and all that is thanks to AI. We're using AI a lot to make that happen. And fully really, because we can see things that were not available before. So, you know, I'm one of the biggest users. Well, one of the biggest, maybe not, but we're big users of AI because it is a great tool for us to not only map but also train people.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

So it kind of gets to an area that's interesting to me. The whole concept of bias. I think people tend to go naturally in their minds to the nefarious types of things that people do with data. But there's a much bigger concern that I have, and I know that you have it as well, where this bias that comes from the things that are missing, honestly, and whether it's the coherence, whether it's a fundamental understanding of certain concepts or even a trust when it comes to machines or individuals and relationships. But the bias that our human being has is very different than what a machine has. Maybe talk a little bit about the two of them and what your observations are. And how do you get leaders to really think about this in the right context?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

So that's what I was touching upon earlier when we started to have the AIs to feel the assessment itself, and we could definitely see the bias that each of them have. We don't phrase it in a specific way for ourselves, because in the end, what we're taking is only a snapshot of where a person stands in this moment, and we're connecting the what we're the seven dimensions we measure are presence, inner peace, inner joy, non-attachment, selflessness, unity, and purpose. So you see, it's not very related to bias per se. Now, it definitely pictures anyway a perception of reality that is by default biased, right? It's a specific lens that can be filled with a lot of stories, or on the contrary, that is very peaceful, etc. etc. So these aspects happen before identity is formed, and from that place of identity are taking decisions that are biased by default. You can easily imagine two different leaders, one that is led by a sense of peace, of presence, of generosity, of maybe a servant leader or transformational leader, someone that is living at ease, right, and and in flow. And then you have the other leader that is full of fears that the world is coming at him. It's difficult, it's always a hustle and a struggle for him, right? Right, yeah. Same individuals, but two different biases and very different leadership decisions, therefore. Right. And most likely different trajectories as well from a career standpoint. So these biases, the ones we are measuring, are so important and they affect so much, not only professionally, but also personally, that we feel that once you take care of these, the rest is taken care as well at the same time. Meaning not only the outcome, which is of the conditions to you know where the person lives, but also the decisions will be more aligned, more coherent, less fragmented, etc., as I was mentioning earlier.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Make sense? Yeah. So can we just maybe drill into the difference really in terms of what the human bias tendencies might be versus the machine or their clear distinctions that a leader should be looking for to understand really and locate where they're at in their progression?

SPEAKER_01 25:54

So if I look machine to machine, meaning for instance cloud versus open AI, the OpenAI is going to have a more, and it this is a generalization. By the way, don't quote me on that, but still, it's going to be having more of an engineer kind of bias. So it's going to be very much technical. And for funny enough, nowadays I use more Chat GPD for all the technical stuff, and for everything that is copyright and more human relations, I will go to Cloud. And this is what the assessment was showing me between these two, for instance. The bias that the AI has besides the one that has been implemented by the creators, right, of the of each engine is also the biases that are coming from our culture, from our content, that is coming from the humanity in general, right? And you most likely have a different bias depending on which language is being used, Spanish versus French versus Mandarin or English, etc. Because of the material that is has been sourcing the creation of these weights that has created AI. So on one hand, we have a monolithic bias. What I mean by that is AI Claude will pro has a specific set, foundational set of biases that are unique, right, compared with ChatGPT, but still it's always the same shape, let's put it that way. And then you have the human, each human has its own set of biases. And that diverse set of biases are querying this monolithic set of bias, which is the AI plot for to take that example, and therefore these two biases are creating a third world. So it becomes a bit messy in the end, but still works because that's life. That's the beauty of it.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Right. So this kind of goes into the whole creating something out of the chaos, essentially, is how I think about it. But you use the word fragmentation to kind of describe what you have to do with an organization just to really start making making some headway in the coherent space. I think people assume that this is hard to measure. So it feels like a soft skill, but when you're seeing that kind of fragmentation, what does it look like? And what what are some of the we'll call them levers that you can actually pull that that help you to start moving in things in a way that people can see they're changing?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

That's a vast question. The let's let's start one one step after the other. Fragmentation is a term that we try to find, you know, to describe something that is happening on the day-to-day, where when I take a decision, the question is for a leader, for whomever, basically. But is it am I my whole being is in that decision, or one aspect of me has taken it? You may have had in your life at some point a conversation with someone, professionally or otherwise, where you felt that you took that decision, but you were not fully there behind it. Right? One aspect of you was there answering and say yes, when in reality you wanted more to say no, but you were not daring to say so, for instance. That might have happened. But that's what I'm pointing to. There was fragmentation there, and most likely the outcome was not the one desired, it was something else. And so that's what happens more often than not in business. So the question is can we afford as a business to continue in that same direction? Because what we know is the more fragmentations, one fragmentation will lead to two, three, four, five fragmentations. It's not like just repeating itself, it's it's it expands. So uh therefore it has a direct impact on the bottom line of the company.

unknown 30:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

So and we see that in sports. When you have a chaotic or fragmented team, statistics in sports show that they have less results and less access to opportunities than a coherent team.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Right. There's certainly been a lot of re recent events that we can look at from a sports perspective for certain, where there's that real challenge when you've got well, I think I'm not sure if you follow basketball in the U.S., but you know, the yet again, uh one of the superstars is changing teams. And when you have superstars, and it was funny because I think the person I remember most talking about the challenges inside of a team. Um I think it was Kobe Bryant, and they said it's uh, you know, that there's no I in team. But he his take was, well, there's an M and an E in there. But I mean it it's uh I think it's a gap that is that really does have to get closed. Uh I think you've talked a little bit about that before, but maybe talk about what the importance of it is at this particular point in time. If folks want to really do trustworthy AI work, the if you skip this step, it's gonna really not end well. Maybe talk a little bit about how important this is and what are some of the things that they should be ex they actually can start to see and they'll feel much, much better about the decision, quite frankly, if they start acting on this stuff. Because we're talking about some things that are pretty high stakes in a lot of different industries.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

I mean, if we look at the the trends in the last 50 years as pertaining to technology scaling, right? We have seen the internet and then and then the phone, the mobile phone, and then social media and so on. We have seen the amazing advantages of this these ecosystems as they were growing. And then, as for social media, for instance, we have seen the humongous impact, negative impact it has on society. What seemed to be an obvious good choice at the beginning became something that started to hamper the actual interconnection of society in general and its capacity to grow into a more conscious society, and and and that is a tremendous negative impact that are going to affect the next generations and many generations, because I don't know how your kids are, but I can see mine. They are pegged to their phones, and what about human relationship? Why it's much easier through digital. So just that, which seems to be quite not important, but has had such a tremendous impact on our society, and now we're bringing in AI, which is going to bring quantum computing and robots just behind it. Right. And going to the space and a few bunch of little things.

unknown 33:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

And and all that amazing good if it is still handled from a place of again of non of non-coherence, of fragmentation, right. Negative effects may very well supersede the positive ones by a long, long shot. So and as I mentioned earlier, I believe no company can afford, literally speaking, I'm talking financially, the impact that fragmentation has on our bottom line. None. Right. And that's that's the thing. Now we're starting to study the big companies and see how coherent they are, how impactful they are. And you can see some very, very dire stuff happening there, even if they do still make headlines and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yeah, this is you know, in my mind, one of the most important things that leaders should be paying attention to right now because there's definitely a significant challenge. And if there's been studies out for a while now that really talk about this the degree to which human trust has been eroded in a leadership position, you've got a lot on the line. I know people doing AI, no matter what industry, their boards are really scrutinizing things pretty closely. But the this human aspect of it, I think it needs a lot more attention. If you're well, since you have an audience of listeners here, just d talk to that, talk to a leader and tell them what where they should be focused. Like you know, right now, if they're not already focused on it, what should they be doing first to make sure they're starting to make progress in this?

SPEAKER_01 35:36

I think I mean uh the best thing is if they could start just measuring the coherence field in their team, that would be amazing. It's simple stuff. You can go online on our website, it's free. Go have a look, test it out, and see what's the results. That lets you know where you are in the fragmentation of your team. Does that relate to your current experience? Because that's what's most important. And then potentially, you know, one of our coaches can help you decipher all that and and look at the next step. But I think again, the what we call so what we called soft skills are actually the primary ones. And I think that in the last 10 years, this is what society has realized more and more, and we're going towards more of it because all the what we call hard skills are taken care of by AI anyway. So they're gonna be off their plate. And so the only remaining ones are the soft skills, and which are actually the most essential ones anyway, have always been. So might be time to take care of that.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

What are some things that you would look to do, or in you advise a CEO, for example, to do if they feel like there's an issue there and they don't know quite what the severity of it is, but they know they have to do something. What are I mean, I love that you mentioned your coaching. Uh, because I think that's probably one of the things that people should be thinking about reaching out for. Just talk a little bit about that, if you would.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

The first thing I would do in their shoes is really to look at so to gather the data. Because that's what our institute is about, is I believe and we are demonstrating now that this coherence field that exists already in an organization, we can now map it. We can now measure it, and we can see what is underneath it, or better said, what is happening at the fragmentation level, right? What is the origin of that fragmentation? So if there are trust issues, culture issues, etc., or lag of execution, I would go and map, see where what is happening now in my organization. Or gather my management team, they go through our website seven minutes each, and they have an information about where they stand in this moment. Simple. From there, then can start a conversation on what we can do with that information, and maybe we want to try a 12-week sprint with these guys, or I want to work with my coach independent from us on uh on this and that. Of course, let's let's do it, right? But let's take actions. That's I think the most important part. So instead of suffering the consequences, let's start mapping and measuring, and then find the solutions that will help you to really go beyond, because there's no reason why you would cont you should continue in that same pattern, right? Of culture, trust, or whatever issues that is happening. So trust the process, go map and measure, and then after that, start the very interesting conversation of how to get out of it.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

As we think about the next couple of years, where do you think we're headed and what's your sense in terms of how people will start to think about coherence and start moving the needle there versus the areas that you might be concerned? Are there industries that you think are more likely to do it than others?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

I mean, as always, I think you know the industries, technology, uh all the innovations-based industries are to lead the way in terms of leadership as well. They they have they see what is at stake, and therefore they want to be the best version of themselves too in terms of leadership. So that would be my first guess. Now, we have been surprised and found in other sectors as well, early adopters, and uh whether events or cosmetics. Um and so five, three, five years from now, I would expect the finance and technology world to be the leaders in general in that adoption of coherence, because it makes pure financial sense. And uh it is my wish as well that Fortune 500 companies will start adopting the tools that we offer as well in that direction. But more importantly, we're building an ecosystem. So it's we're here to facilitate an ecosystem and to the best of our abilities. So anyone who is in your audience uh who wants to be part of that ecosystem is very much welcome to help us and and help themselves to grow in that direction because again, it is so essential that we out everyone should be really looking at that and use that tool on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

As we're kind of landing the plane here, where can people find you? Where can they take the heart leadership assessment that you talked about? Of course, you've got a bunch of really great content on your site I've seen, and the coaching program in particular, I think would be something that in a near term kind of a sprint organization should be thinking about. Tell them how to find you and what that could look like.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

I think uh on our website at tapu.com slash dfrag for the uh for the heart leadership index, for instance, or slash hli-certification for the certification for coaches. You have a lot of information. We have a whole section of resources with studies, research, books available there. And you know, there's a contact page. You can also contact us there as well, and you can find me on LinkedIn and uh yeah, and on YouTube, I think, as well. So and two and other subject.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Thank you so much for coming on the show and for sharing this. I always get inspired by people who are taking things as a status quo, but you you've seen something that's a significant risk, and I'd love that you dedicated yourself and your team to be able to work on this and prepare people. Um this is probably one of the most uh incredibly exponential uh impacts in terms of human transformation that we've ever had to tackle. There's no place to hide in the world from it, at least that I'm aware of. Exactly. Maybe a bouton. Maybe. So I think one of the things that I'm gonna take from this conversation is the coherence of humans is ultimately what's gonna decide whether the AI helps or it just scales a mess. Yes. I think the idea is the right one. I think we all can agree as we look around. We don't need a whole lot of math to understand conceptually based on what we see. We have a sense that, an inherent sense, that there's some things that are really needing attention. Really love that you've drawn attention to this. And this is phenomenal for you, listeners. Uh I'm excited for you guys to hear this conversation, but please do go to the website. I'll make sure all the information you need is in the show notes. Definitely reach out to Arnold and his team. Just reach out and have some, have a conversation, find out that you're okay. Don't guess. There's too much riding on it. You don't want to lose your best talent. Unfortunately, they're the ones that go first if you don't start to do these things and make sure that you're getting the foundation secure. It's really about human beings first. That is going to do it for this episode of the signal room, and I will see you next time. Thank you.