Episode 1.6 "Attachments, Portals & Haunted Places"

In this episode, Suzanne and Tina welcome back Wayne Sims from GHOULS Paranormal Society for another deep dive into paranormal investigations across Utah. Wayne shares the origin of the team’s name — “Ghost Hunters of Utah’s Lost Souls” — and launches into some of the creepiest experiences his group has encountered during investigations.

The conversation explores infamous haunted locations including Asylum 49, Fort Douglas Military Museum, Benson Grist Mill, and the mysterious Church & State building in downtown Salt Lake City. Wayne recounts hearing disembodied voices, terrifying growls, shadow figures, motion-triggered paranormal devices activating on their own, and moments where investigators felt physically ill or emotionally overwhelmed during encounters.

The episode also dives into deeper paranormal theories, including whether mirrors can act as portals, why certain spirits mimic children, the dangers of provoking entities, and how attachments may follow investigators home. Wayne explains his belief that many “child ghosts” may actually be darker entities disguising themselves to gain trust, and he discusses the importance of respect and caution during investigations.

The episode closes with Wayne reflecting on why he continues paranormal investigations despite the emotional toll, describing the work as both a passion and a way to help people experiencing unexplained activity in their homes.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Okay. Hey everybody. We made it to episode six. Welcome back. We're doing good. Because uh, yeah, we had four, and then we had Wayne on as our special guest for number five, and here we are with number six, and we have Wayne back to tell us some more stories, and I'm trying to get as many stories out of him as I can because he is loaded with them. So he is kind enough to tell us some more, and I think we're just gonna launch back into this. So it's it's uh me, Suzanne, and Tina, and Wayne uh from Ghoul's Paranormal Society is here.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

I love how you just said that again.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

It's ghouls, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

So so Goul stands for Ghost Hunters of Utah's Lost Souls.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

So that's the that was the acronym.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

So a little history behind that. So we were trying to figure out what to call our team's name. And we had booked Asylum 49 to go investigate as a team. And we were in the conference room, and my buddy at the time that he was part of the team, we were just going around asking, like, what do we call ourselves? And he came up with Googles.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

We kind of like you need to say that ghost hunters of Utah's lost souls, and so that's that's it. It stuck, and I'm like, and that's where we've been.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Oh, so it wasn't like you were like ghouls, and then you're like, okay, let's try and figure out words that fit with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

No, no, he had thought that one out, and so we kept ghouls for the longest time, and then a few years later we went with paranormal society to add on to it just to let everyone know that yeah, we're that's what we're like paranormal because we hear ghouls are like what?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

But then we yeah, I think it would kind of have a negative connotation, like a ghoul is a scary thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:14

So I think Utah's a hot spot for a lot of activity.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

So it is, and it's interesting because there's a lot of paranormal teams out there. Um, I mean, they're kind of dying off right now, huh? Unintended. Um seriously, she people who can't see, Suzanne has this leaky blanket on.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

It's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

And it's like nine degrees outside.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

It's so cold in here. It is the month of May, and she is like bundled in January. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Oh wow. I was just like, she's got her sweats on.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yeah. Would you like some gloves and earlier?

SPEAKER_03 2:50

I want some hot chocolate or copper.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Seriously.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I am freezing. Maybe we maybe we have a guest, an unseen guest that's making it cold.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

You're just always like I think I'm always cold.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah, I'm not that lucky.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

We brought some of my equipment and we could have could have tested it out. You should have.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Maybe we'll get some EVPs in the background.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

You never know. You never know. You just never know.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

You never know if it's around.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Someone might munch it on those cookies that are sitting over on your camera that you've never offered.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

I haven't. I'm not, I we cannot be chewing in the middle of this important conversation.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Well, after I left after I left the last episode, it was like a week ago.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Right. I thought we were all going to dinner and cooking. You know what? If you give us some good stories, I will give you a cookie.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Oh, that's a reward. Between apparently between apparently. No, so so anyway, so let's talk about I let's talk about Time of 49.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

You know, because everyone goes, everyone goes Time of the 49th.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

In Twilla?

SPEAKER_03 3:54

In Twilla, yeah. Yeah, the hospital. So we had gone there and it was still had that working senior citizen side. It was still up and running. So the hospital, so so they were still in business at the time that we were investing.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, I think I saw on TV they did a show, and it was still like an old person.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Not anymore, they've closed it down. So old person. So the day that we came up with our our our our um team name, we were investigated prior to this, and so we're sitting at the table, and I thought, hey, we'll do a roll call. You know, the roll call is when you go around the table and say, you know, this is so-and-so, this is so-and-so, this is so-and-so. So we had the old camcorder going, and it was mine. So I just got it going, and we're going around videotaping everyone saying their name. And as we passed my partner's daughters, they both like look at each other and like looking around, and I'm like, this is messing around. And so I'm sitting there, and and it's not until two days later, I'm going through evidence that I find out why they were looking around. So we're going around saying our names, and one of the daughters says, Hey, Amber thinks she heard someone say her name. And one of the claims is that there's a little girl there that mimics the person's name or their voice. And so I'm sitting there and I'm late at night, lights are off, and I'm watching the video because it's on camcorder, so I'm watching the video.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Why are you watching it at night in the dark?

SPEAKER_03 5:36

And so I go, What was that? And so I have to rewind it again. I'm like listening, and all of a sudden, hairs all over my body stood up, and because you see the reaction of the dog, the girls looking at each other, like looking around, but you hear clearly this little voice go, Amber! Oh, geez, and I froze, and I could not wait to go show my partner. I said, Listen, you've got to watch this, you've got to listen. And the minute I showed it, she just freaked out. Um, but yeah, so Silent 49 is it's it's a very good hot spot. I will say the only time that you want to go investigate is when they do not have it set up for the haunted house because they they create fake walls, fake doors, and so um they just they rearrange it so it's not open like it usually is when during the off season. So if you ever want to go there, go there after the Halloween season. So get there before July, let's put it that way. Because July is when they start setting up.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yeah, probably November would be a good month to go.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Well, if they're tearing it down though, maybe yeah, and no, that is kind of a good time because there is there well, there is, there was, there is a uh paranormal uh investigator that wrote a book that went in November right after uh the he was there to witness the haunted house, and then he was there after they tore it down. Oh, I think he he actually had wrote a book on the 749, and so he actually talks about that. That's nice, but yeah, um 49 was a was a great place. Um, so we've gone to church and state, um, that's downtown, off of third uh fourth south and third east, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Is it like a bar?

SPEAKER_03 7:28

No, it's actually it's a huge building that has businesses inside.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

It's kind of like your alternative businesses, um, and they're independent businesses. I mean, they're just local people, right? Um, and we were invited to go investigate that building, and it was awesome. I mean, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Would be a good bar name, though, by the way. Oh, okay. So you go and investigate.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

So we went and investigated, and you Rich, one of the investigators, and Kelly, um, they are up on the second level, and Kelly's daughter, Espy, is part of our team. She and myself, and another team member who's no longer part of the team, we were downstairs, and we all heard a woman's voice, the same woman's voice, but we were on two separate different levels.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Like at the same time?

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Same time.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Same time.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

How do you know? Were you on walkie talking?

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Yeah, we are on the walkie talking because then we was like, hey, did you guys, you know, did someone just talk? And and they're like, Hey, did you just hear that woman's voice? And we're like, Yeah, we thought you, and we thought it was you guys. Like, no, we just heard it too. And at that time, uh, Rich and Kelly heard a growl. No, and they were like, and so we ran upstairs to find out what was going on. Um, and it was just pure blackness upstairs. You like you could not see anything that was black. So I'm like, okay, something's definitely here. Um, let's kind of just let's investigate up here and work our way back downstairs. So we get down to the basement and we just bought the music box.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Oh, yeah, yeah, that we saw at Benson Grease. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

So we bought the music box.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Which is creepy by the way.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

And they said they had heard they had had activity happening in the cafeteria in the kitchen area. So we're like, okay, we're gonna go put it in the kitchen where we know no one's gonna walk by it.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

So just to give a little um backstory, the the music box is a motion detector, it's a motion detector. And then and when when something goes by, it sets it off, but it's kind of this creepy music box tune that plays. Yes, but yeah, but yeah, it's a motion detector.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

So we have it sitting in there, and the door's closed in the kitchen, so no one can go in there. And so we're sitting outside, and I'm looking around the corner, and I can just see this black shadow just peeking around the corner. And so Rich and Kelly take off, and I stand up and there's this mirror right in front of me, and I'm like tranced, like I'm staring at the mirror, just like when you saw that demon thing. Right. I I couldn't move, and I'm just staring at this mirror, and my face just starts making weird shapes, distorted, it's distorted, it's interesting, and so the part the the team member that's no longer part of our team went to grab me and the music box starts going off, and they start screaming because there's no one in, I mean, it's in a room that there's no one in there, and they finally get me away from the mirror. I hear the music box going off.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

When when you got pulled away from the mirror, did it break you out of whatever trance you were in? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

So I'm like, what's going on? I hear the music box going on. I'm like, what? And so we go in the cafe, we go in the kitchen, and it stops. Like it just stops. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Because it always stops when you come around.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

And I'm and I I was sick to my stomach, and I was like, I gotta get outside. Like, I literally gotta get outside because I feel like I'm gonna puke. And Kelly and Rich are running after this black shadow upstairs. You can hear them just like chasing whatever it is, and I get outside and I I finally get my bearings, and I was like, that was just like really weird. And they're like, I said, there's something evil here, like I don't know what's what it is, I don't know what's going on. I don't know if one of these businesses has if they're doing rituals or if they're doing seances, because there was one there was a business in there that had something going on there, but no one knew exactly what was going on.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Oh you have to practice responsibly.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

So I said there's definitely something something here, and we ended up so they were doing so they were doing a crystal show the next morning. So a lot of the people who had crystals were coming in, they're already there, they were covered up, so the energy was hyped up already. So you had all types of crystals and and and like vendors for crystals and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

And so uh yeah, like I said, this is one of those alternative places. So um, yeah, it was it was it was very, very interesting place. But church estate I'll I will chalk up as as a paranormal experience that I'll never forget.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

And then so that you know, you've said two things uh once in in the last episode, and then once here you first of all you talked about being nauseous, and I wonder what makes you nauseous because I went on a ghost investigation on the Queen Mary years ago, like it was 2006, and we went down in this room where um one of the sailors was killed. It was, you know, it was a warship during World War II. Um, and I was I got really nauseous in there, like um, and I chalked it up to nerves or being scared, but now you say that you are nauseous. What do you think causes you to be nauseous in the presence of spirits?

SPEAKER_03 13:45

I think it's just them trying to either make contact or trying to maybe overtake is it energy or frequency or I would say energy. I'd say the energy. Um because a lot of times you gotta understand that these things, and I call them things because we don't know what they are at the moment, um might be wanting to take over your body, possess it. Um, like a lot of times, I'll have some of the team members back out of investigation because they've got stress going on and they don't want to be overtaken by something or bring something home.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

It's kind of like your immunity is down, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

For lack of a better word.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

So um so yeah, I I I just think it's usually it's something trying to communicate with you, but also it's trying to say, hey, my I've got some I'm I I'm targeting you for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Hmm. Or I just wonder if it's like compatibility issues. Do you know what I mean? You're like from two different planes, or I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

I think about my mom. She uh she was in I think her 20s at the time. So this was I don't know how many years ago. She went and did this what they called at the time a past life regression where you sat in front of the mirror and you said this chant, and then my mom watched her face change into seven different um seven different faces, and that always stuck with her forever because she was like, was it real or was it like a like a spirit that came through that was like because it was all evil things that she was seeing? So it was this like something that was messing with her? No, she it wasn't. She said it was just it was weird, and like where you were looking in the mirror and you felt your face disfigured or something. It's sometimes I wonder if they do try to show us who they are.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

So we believe the mirrors are portals. So whenever we go into a home and and someone's talking about their room, and and we always try to see where the mirror is, and yeah, so we believe that the mirrors mirrors are portals. Um I did a I did my own investigation at uh at a home for a friend once, and um, they had a mirror up in the master bedroom and a mirror down in the um child's bedroom. And I was asking, I was using the dowsing rods, and I was asking, are you traveling between the mirrors? And it said yes. So it would watch, it would watch my friend, and then go down and watch her daughter, and it was just going back and forth, and it was trying to pig figure out which one it wanted to attack or or wanted to attack.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

So yeah, it it's it's it's it's real, and um we usually tell them to cover, put a blanket over the the mirror before they go to bed. Um, so it because it just that for some reason stops, it stops the the going back and forth, so right.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

It makes sense. I think that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

And and the other thing you said, and I I actually wrote this down because you you see this on TV show investigations, they talk about growling all the time, and you say you hear growling, and I've heard EVPs of growling. Why growls instead of words, or you know what I mean? Why do you think they would growl?

SPEAKER_03 17:16

So the growl, I believe, and this is just my belief, is more of something malicious. It's something that wants to let you know that it is evil, it's something to let you know that it's there, and it you're you're going if you if you poke the bear, it's gonna bite you, it's gonna get you. Um and so it's kind of more like just kind of be ready. I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

But do you do you think that words are harder to form, or do you think it's a scare tactic?

SPEAKER_03 17:47

So I think with the words, those the the ones where you hear the words, it's more of those are messages that are being sent to you. Um they're people who have passed away. The growls, I believe, are more the demonic, the more of the demons, the more of the the third of hosts.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Um I believe these are the ones that are are wanting to well and see, like earlier when you were talking about a little kid voice, I've told Tina this before. I do not believe in little kid ghosts.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Yeah, you I remember that your your first episode, you talked about that, and I and I kind of laughed at that because yeah, I you gotta understand. So whenever we deal with with an investigation and and someone says, I saw a little child ghost, my first thing, my my first thing to them is like, okay, let's talk about this. So, in order for someone to or a thing to be brought into your home or into your life, you have to welcome it. And so when people do their seances because they want to talk to a loved one or someone who's passed on, I tell them, be careful because you don't know what's coming through. It could be the sweet little grandma that you loved, but really it's this demon that's taken upon itself to look like the grandma trying to get to you, trying to get to you, same as a child. You're trusting these sweet looking innocent people. And so um we had an investigation where we were investigating an apartment, and the the little kid at the time was like, Yeah, he goes, I got this little friend, you know, he likes to come in the plate with me, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, tell me about this little kid. He's like, Oh yeah, you know, he's he like has described like a pioneer kid. And he goes, and all of a sudden he'll disappear, and there'll be this tall guy standing by my window outside my window.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

And I was like, That's who it really is.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Like, yeah, well, get Jill's again, just think about this, and that's who it is, and so so we and the funny thing is not the funny thing, the interesting thing is is we put one of our EMF detectors in the in the kids' bedroom, and we had our camera aiming into there, our our our our DVR camera aiming into the kids' bedroom. We're in the front room, door slams, and the MF goes starts going off crazy. And we can't get into the bedroom, it's it's whatever's in there is not letting us in.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Like you can't get the door open.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

We can't get the door open. Finally, the MF stops, door opens wide open, and there's like no one in there. And I was like, Are you kidding me? And then we had so we went old school because I like doing old school stuff, so we had these little bells hanging out throughout the apartment, and all of a sudden you started hearing all the bells going off, and we're like, Okay, something is evil, and so I and so I talked into the mom, I said whatever's going on in your life or whatever something was here before you got here, but because of what's going on in your life, it's just amplified it 10 times, and that's why things are happening. Um but yeah, so the little kids, um I I say they are real, but they are a different form of what we would say a little kid is.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying that you don't see a little kid, I'm saying that they are not actually a little kid. I think it's a demon or the or the third of the host. Like you said.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Majority of the time it's a demon. Once in a while it might it may be a child, but rarely is it a child. Um uh, and that's the sad thing about it because you know, you get some of these families who miss their child and they think it's their child, and you're like, it's not your little one anymore. It's something else that wants you to believe that it is. Um, you'll get that that's a small percentage of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah, it's using you or or mocking you, or or just trying to get to you.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Yeah, so that uh so so my take on that is that. And and and they just come in all different forms of things. I mean, I do believe in the shadow people, the little shadow people. You know, those things are tormentors. Um Fort Douglas had one. Um, very first investigation uh that we went up there. It was our first public investigation to be exact. Um we decided, hey, we're gonna we're gonna do this. And so we did um we we we did in conjunction with iMed's NICU, um they do a uh uh um what do you want to call it? Uh some little type of fair where you can go and you can buy, you know, you can help like a fundraiser? Fundraiser kind of thing. Kind of I guess kind of like a fundraiser, I can't remember what it was, but anyways, this couple paid so much money to buy this um investigation, and so we're like, we gotta find a place, yeah. And so we were searching all over to the to do this investigation for this family, and the first place we decided to go, they said we don't do those anymore, you'll have to go somewhere else. And that's when we was contacted Fort Douglas, like, yeah, come on up. So we got up there, and then our first time up there, and so they took us through where we were gonna go, and and I started like getting a weird feeling, and I started hearing growls, and I kept it to myself. I didn't let anyone know what was going on. I'm like, okay, I'm like, this is like tricky, real trippy. And I don't know, did you guys go into the maintenance shop that was that the second time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

So I've done two investigations at Fort Douglas, and the second time, that's the only place that I got a really bad feeling.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

So it was at the end of the at the end of the get investigation, and I'd taken a group in there, and we had gone down the hallway, and we were gonna go down into the shop area where they had the the cars, and I got down to the bottom level, that bottom step, and was walking away, and something came up behind me and just threw me to the ground, and everyone's like, What happened? I said, I just got thrown to the ground, like literally legit just got thrown to the ground and heard the growl, and everyone freaked because they heard the growl.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

And same growl.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Yeah, just same growl, and we just all froze, and I said, Okay, guys, I said we need to leave. I said, something doesn't want us here. Because our first public investigation, I didn't want anyone to get hurt, so we left. Um, that's when we were hearing the stuff on the roof, and we weren't sure what was going on. Um down in the basement where you know you were talking about earlier.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Where they had the soldiers' barracks.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Yes. We picked up a very clear EVP, and it's a woman saying not to go into the barracks or into the little room.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Um like what how did it say it? Don't go in there or don't go in there. Okay, there was a woman who was like, Don't go in there.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

And so in that little room, the lights started glowing, like legit glowing.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

You've Tina's seen a glow, uh light bulb like that.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

And I'm like, why are these glowing? Like, seriously, why are these glowing?

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Because they weren't on, they weren't on.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Okay, and so this is where Shanna and her daughter caught an EVP, and it sounded like a soldier communicating with his sergeant through walkie-talkies. Oh, so through walkie-talkies.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

So, like what like what year like type?

SPEAKER_03 25:58

I mean, walkie-talkies like they yeah, I we don't know. That's just it, we don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

It just sounded like it would have to be have to be in the 1900s, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Like they were, and then you hear like a little oh like a Morse code or something like that like Morse code, and we're like as and I'm listening to these, I'm listening to this on my digital recorder, I'm like, like, what is that? Like, what is that? I'm like, and I'm listening, I'm like, that that's Morse code.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Like, did you interpret the Morse code?

SPEAKER_03 26:25

I come on, code? Who does Morse code now? Chat GPT, chat GPT will go back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

I know, but you can do it now.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

So, but yeah, I was like, and so it was pretty cool, and so but that was our first experience with Fort Douglas, and we and we kept going back, you know, and and and that's one of our fun ones. Um, but now that it's kind of changed things up, it it kind of we've kind of ventured to other places. We like to go other places now, like the Metzigrisk mill, you know, and in that one, so we actually do have a YouTube channel. I forgot to throw that out there. Um, and one of our evident V VP evidence is on our YouTube channel. We were in the makeshift school house, and Rich was in there, and at the time we had a teacher on our team. Um she's gonna come back as soon as her kids are a little bit older, and so she was in there pretending to be a teacher, and we were all sitting in in those little chairs, and in the corner we had our digital recorder, and she's like doing like a fake roll call, and she calls out a name, and you hear and the digital recorder is like, I'm over in the corner.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Oh and and so that was our first time being at Benson Gris Mill.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Yeah, so after that, we're like, okay, we're gonna go back, and so then we got the we had the um um music box, and so I said, Hey, we picked up the EVP in the corner, let's put the music box shooting in the corner, and so we had it there, and we're just doing our thing again, and all of a sudden it started going off, and we just kind of froze, and then you could like hear little footsteps moving, and we're like, Okay, something's here with us. This is kind of cool. Um, but yeah, so did you communicate with it? Yeah, yeah, we so you we used the music box to communicate, so we got it to start using it to you know turn it on and off um for yes and no. Um, and then that year was the same year that Rich brought his um nieces, and they were in the mill with did they have the music box or with the no, they had the flashlight, they do the flashlight method, and it they were upstairs and they were sitting down and they heard a growl behind them and they ran out. Um when we it was just the team at Benson Griss Mill. Um uh one of our investigators had gone and bought the cat balls, and there is um uh reports that there is a Native American that stands at the end of the at one of the end of the bridge that crosses you over into where all the other buildings are. So we placed a couple of the cat balls on each end, and we wanted it to do what it to set it off. And so we sat there for about 10 minutes and I said, Well, bring one of the cat balls over by us. Let's see if we I said I'm starting to feel like there's something by where I'm standing. So they put the cat ball in front of us and we're we're talking, like, hey, come on, just set it off. And I was just like, okay, I'm like, just let us know that you're here. We just want to know that there really is a Native American here. Cat ball went off. Oh it just started going off, and we're just like standing there, just like puzzled, like we it hasn't gone off all night long, it wasn't going off before, and now it's going offwards, and it was so cool.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

You know, when we went to Benson Grist, so Tina didn't go that night, she didn't go, but um, I had my daughter, and then we took uh Teresa and Aaron, and we, you know, we we wandered around the the whole night, and the only place I felt uneasy, I felt like the night was a little bit of a bust for me because I didn't get anything, but on the bridge that you say that, that was the only place that I felt uneasy, and I didn't know if it was because, you know, like I said earlier, it's like nerves around like, oh, this is new to me, I haven't done this before. But now that you say that, I wonder if I actually did feel something right there because we walked around in every other building and I didn't get anything. We went in the the mill and I didn't necessarily feel anything, but that music box kept going off when there was nobody there. And I know because we were on the next floor and there was nobody else in there with us, but it kept going off. But we went, we took all of the tools and we kept going in all of the different buildings and we didn't get anything, and we were talking and we're like, hey, talk to us, and we didn't get anything. But then Wayne, we're like, hey, Wayne, go with us to the schoolhouse and then and then come with us to the the barn, right? And and Wayne was like, Okay, you guys need to not go to the barn right now. He's like, There's something in there, and I don't want you in there alone. We're like, he's like, I'm gonna go check it out. And we're like, we want to go. Let us go with you. He's like, okay, you can go, but you have to stand outside. I'm gonna go in and see what's in there. And so we from from the outside of the barn, we were watching Wayne go around in there trying to talk to this thing, and he climbed up the ladder and was looking at the loft, and you were talking to something up there. And but I mean, I really didn't get any feelings, but tell tell us what was in the barn.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

There was something dark. Um, so prior to that investigation, we'd we had gotten information that some group had come in and had done a seance and had conjured something up.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Oh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Yeah, yeah. So we had talked to um the caretaker um because we'd gone there prior, kind of to scope things out, and I was like, I I'm feeling uneasy. Like this is I might because this is supposed to be like a family-oriented, fun investigation, bring your little kids kind of. Yeah, it's like history, and I and I and I never want to bring little kids on that are going to get hurt, and that's when we were informed that somebody, a group, had come in and had done a seance and had conjured something and brought something to the mill.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

And so since then, you know, we we've we volunteered to go on and we volunteered to go close up whatever portals have been opened up and and whatnot, but um there was something dark that was up in the loft, um and it wanted to harm individuals right here. And and uh Yeah, it's just it just wasn't a good, it wasn't good. That this this investigation at Vincent Grissmill was one of those that made me rethink a lot of things of like what age group is appropriate now, you know, and and um because I like I said I never want to put anyone in harm and uh or in a in a position where they get possessed.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

So and I didn't know until I think I was talking to Wayne like a couple of days after this investigation, and I had taken my daughter who was 15, I think, at the time, and uh he was like, Yeah, I I was I didn't tell you this at the time, but we were keeping an eye on you because something was trying to attach to you and your daughter.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

But I had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Do you ever feel like when you take bigger groups out or smaller groups, it's more active one way or the other if it's smaller or bigger?

SPEAKER_03 34:21

It just kinda. Um, so like Fort Douglas, that was way too many. We weren't planning on that many. We were only planning on 25. We ended up with almost 50. So sometimes when you have too many there, the activity isn't as isn't as present. I mean, it's still there, but it it's not as present as if we were just to have the 25 people that we originally wanted there. We probably would have had more um activity, um, more experiences that you guys could have gone home with. Uh so that's why groups like that, Benson Christmas Mill is great because it's open. There's tons of buildings, and and yeah, you you really can't get to every building throughout. You know, you'll have to come do another investigation with this thing. So yeah, it just depends on the group.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

It seems to me like that. It kind of seemed like when when I was with you guys at Fort Douglas, I kind of felt like if it would have been, or it seemed like it was if it the more people that were going down in that room downstairs, yeah, it seemed like it quit responding as much. And then I went down there later again, and it was a smaller group, and it was a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Well, and I felt like there were a couple people on that tour that were just kind of loud and obnoxious and a little bit disrespectful. And I feel like you don't get the same results when you don't.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

And that that's the other thing, too. You you get some who want the ghost stories, who want just the experience. You want some who want to really investigate and see what's really going on, right? And and so, yeah, you do get the louds, and so it and the disrespectful people, and and you know, sometimes we've actually had to have asked people to leave because of that. Um, and and you hate to do that, but you get people that would really want to come and have an experience and and and and have that that that that that scare, if that's what you want to call it. Um but uh yeah, I uh I don't know where I was gonna go with this, but I've just thought my my train of thought there. Um, because I was gonna lead into a different investigation that we large groups or small groups? Large groups, large, large groups, small groups. Well, that's what she was. I said kind of answering Tina's question about large groups and small groups. Yeah, you know, I mean, and we just kind of went on that tangent there.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

No, no, it's fine. Well, like I said, I'm an open book for anything and everything.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

And I'm a firm believer though, when you're going out and doing this kind of stuff, you have to be respectful. I don't I I feel like people that go into it jokingly or loud or I I don't feel like they should be there because I just feel like no matter what or who it is you're speaking with or dealing with, you still need to have some respect for that other side.

SPEAKER_03 37:11

You always have to have respect. That's that's the thing we that's why we tell everyone don't go in there and provoke.

unknown 37:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

Do not go provoke because basically this is what we teach them. It's kind of like a you're you're playing with your dog. You know, if you have a pet and you have a pet dog, and you say, Hey, let's go out and throw the ball. So you're you're throwing on the ball, you're teasing the you're and and and you're you're trying to get them to do tricks, you're trying, you know, you and you're giving them like a treat, you know, for for fetching the ball or whatever. And then you're done. Like you're like, okay, I'm done, I'm tired, we're gonna go inside. But the dog's not. Yep, it still wants to play, it still wants you to throw the ball. So that's when it becomes dis, you know. So you've now disres disrespected this ghost because you're asking it to do something and and you're you're antagonizing, you're begging it, and then you're like, okay, we're done, see it, thanks. And it's like, no, you just woke me up or you just asked me to do certain things. Exactly. I'm not done. I I you've got my attention, you need to listen to me now. And so sometimes when you get the disrespectful people, they they are the ones that tend to take something home with them.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Oh, on the flip on the flip side, you know, yeah, have respect. But do you ever think that there's an entity that you should not respect? You get demons and you're like, hey, get the heck out of here. I'm scared to not respect. You know, but no, but what if it's a bad one? You're like, okay, get out. You are not welcome here.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Yeah, so that that's a little bit different than the disrespect. That's you telling them that they're not allowed to come with you. The disrespect is when you're you're like, I don't know. So there's a certain group out there that is on TV that sometimes, you know, they provoke and they make fun. That is a little bit, that's the disrespect. But if they're there and you're asking questions, you're asking to do something, and then you're just like, hey, you're not allowed to come with me, you stay here. That's not disrespect. You're you're setting your foot down saying, I don't want you coming home with me rather than you teasing.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Yeah, thank you for the interaction.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

This is where a lot of people will say thank you. A lot of, you know, a lot of investigators will say thank you for interacting with us.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Please stay here. I don't want you with me. You're not allowed to come with me. So I have seen investigators do that before in signals. So yeah, it's just and but yeah, we we usually tell people don't provoke because that will cause issues down the line.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

I I know we I think we already talked about this in one of our other episodes, but when I was at the cemetery and something followed us home, then that that next day when I I was nice about it, when I was like, you know, I I appreciate that you wanted to come home with me, but I really need for you to leave. You know, I I I I don't want you here, you know. I felt like and it did leave because I did it in a I felt like in a nice manner, and I wasn't like get out or you're not want, you know. I acknowledged that it was there for a reason and I asked it to leave, and I really truly do feel like it left because I was more respectful. Yeah. So Paul, I'm respectful, because I just feel like you need to be. But I get what you're saying though, too. Get out. You know, but I don't think that's just no, I I think it I think it's true.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

I think that you do need to be respectful, especially if you're going to a place where where they live, for you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

So so here's the thing you're wearing Zach Begin's The Honda Museum.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

So I've been there three times, um, and I was provoking in one of the rooms that you're not so really supposed to provoke.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

And were you in the basement?

SPEAKER_03 40:59

It wasn't the basement, no. It was where they had the conjuring statue.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

And they then they opened up the door and they had the the the rocky chair in there. Um I was very disrespectful on one of my and whatever was there followed me home. Um and uh yeah, so it it it it's it's for real. Um and uh like I said, I have a I have a lot more respect for that that this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

I will say that museum in Vegas there, that I could never go in there again.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

I love it. I and this is the bad thing, is is I gravitate to that for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

You do? I I gravitate to that type of thing or to that museum?

SPEAKER_03 41:50

That museum.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

I I every time I go down to Vegas, I'm gravitating to well, and you know it was a it was a haunted house before it was everywhere. Something there that's pulling you to keep coming back.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Something and and and and I can't remember who I was talking to about this, but it's it's just it does. I whenever I get go down to Vegas, it's like something is pulling me to his museum. And I don't know if it's the demon that is attached to me, because yes, I do have an ad that I do have something that's attached to me, and it shows itself once in a while. Um, it's evil looking. Um I the the night before Fort Douglas, it was sitting up in the corner up uh uh in my on my ceiling, staring at me. Um and so it it's very evil looking. Um I've had many people try to say, well, come and and and we'll cleanse you. And I'm like, you can try as hard as you can, but I honestly think that I I call it a spell that I've that someone's hexed me in. And uh so, but like I said, our witch is the voodoo voodoo lady. The voodoo lady. So I think but the our our witch um on our team, Victoria, um, she's trying to conjure up something that we can counter counter this with and get rid of it. But but yeah, it it's you know, this stuff is real. Um it can cause havoc in your personal life. Um it's I mean, people people like it. I you know, when I talk to people, they they want to have a good ghost story to tell their friend, you know, their friends on Monday morning and whatnot. And I'm like, that's all fun and games, but it's not like the movies. It's it's it's literally not like the movies. It's it's a legit real thing. You know, I studied a lot of uh Ed Millrain Warren stuff. I I have a lot I have all their books and I read over their cases. Um I uh I have a lot of respect for them. Um I know they get criticized a lot um for some of their their techniques and some of the things that they may have said and come out and said, but um Um, overall, they had the same intentions that we do. They want to help people. And so that's kind of the direction I've taken my team is that we're there to help people. I mean, we don't charge. Yes, we do not charge for our services. This is all free, um, free of charge. Um, but it it's a rewarding too, you know, going back and talking to some of these people and and asking them how their lives are now. And you know, a lot of them have been able to live a great life.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

And well, and I think you have to have the ability to, you know, you can't just get some guy off the street to come in and and be able to see what they're seeing, you know what I mean? You have to have somebody who has that sensitivity to be able to help them. And so where you have that, you are more qualified than someone else. So I think it's good that you're helping people because not everyone's qualified to do that.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

True. That's so true, you know. And and and I know that one of the questions you ask, you know, what do I consider myself? Um I'm just an investigator, but if I were to give myself a title, it'd be the demonologist on our team. Um, I tend to search for those types of things in an investigation is see if it's a if that's what we're dealing with. Um I always used to Rich, when he first started the team, um he'd always he'd always think everything was a demon. That was a demon, that's a demon. And I'd always think back, I was like, why is he thinking everything's a demon? And I just so as I studied with that Ed Lorraine stuff, I understood where he was coming from.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Is it because it scared him?

SPEAKER_03 45:39

And and so I don't know if it scared him. I don't know if it was something that um he was sensing. Um but since you know, since then, you know, I've really looked into this, you know, and and studying it, studying up on all the demons that are out there. I mean, there are tons of them. Um it it it it that I guess that kind of scares me of how how real it is, yeah, and how easy it is for someone to get that attachment. Um but I I was class myself as a demonologist um on our team. Um I wouldn't say the clairvoyant, um, just because I think that's used loosely at times, you know, people will claim themselves to be clairvoyants, and you're like, well, what what type of clairvoyant are you? Um, you know, are you the Lorraine Warren clairvoyant type, or are you just the scene type or the hearing type, the you know, that kind of thing. But um, but yeah, I mean we got a great solid team, you know, with our cleansing team. Um, and then just our our investigators were we got young people on our team who are still trying to figure out you know what they want to do, and and this this is what they want to continue. Like I said, this is just a hobby that just turned it kind of like a part-time job. But yeah, part-time job you get paid, but we don't get paid for our services.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

It's a it's a labor of love.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

We're doing good things, we we we enjoy it, you know, and and uh it it's someone always asks me, you know, will I ever get tired of this? I no, I'll never get tired of this. It's just it's in my blood, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

And say maybe you can get tired, but you won't get tired of it. Like maybe you need a rest, but you know what, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

I I I think about that sometimes. It's a rest. Maybe that's what we're doing right now. But you know, because this year, you know, we we want to head up. So last year we went to a new place. Um, we went to Haunted Hollow up in north. Oh, yes. Um, and we that was just amazing, and so this year we are gonna try to make that a public investigation.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Um that would be cool.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Um, the evidence was just overwhelming. Um, and things that happened um right at the end of the investigation, like nothing happened from 10 until midnight. Like it was, I was getting ready to say, you know what, we're done. Like, I am like, we are just using up every everything we could, and nothing was happening. And as soon as midnight hit, floodgates opened up, right? And boom, I we didn't want to, we didn't want to leave. We did not want to leave. And so that is on our list this year as a public investigation is the haunted hall. So cool.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Sign me up for that one. Yeah, we'll be there.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

Right. If that one isn't, we'll not let you down, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Well, well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. And oh, you're welcome. Uh maybe we can get you again later down the road and on and pick pick your brain. And and you gave us some good stories, so it's time for your cookie. But really, thank you so much. We appreciate it. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Thanks everyone for listening, and we'll see you next time.