Episode 12: You Were Made for More: Leadership and Life Beyond Clinical Practice

What happens when a dental hygienist stops asking "what can I do in this operatory" and starts asking "what can I do in this world?"

In this episode Kimberly sits down with Deborah Daniel, RDH, MHSc, PMP, CHE and DrPH Candidate at the University of Toronto, to talk about something the dental hygiene profession does not discuss nearly enough — leadership, career transitions, and what it actually looks like to take everything you built at the chair and bring it somewhere bigger.

Deborah is a Program Manager at the Regional Municipality of Durham, a speaker, an allied health leadership advocate, and a non-clinical career transition specialist. She has spent over 15 years navigating healthcare systems, advancing her education, and helping other hygienists find their way beyond clinical practice.

Kimberly and Deborah discuss why hygienists are not seen as leaders in healthcare and what needs to change. They explore why so many hygienists are looking for the exit and they uncover the career paths that are open to hygienists that most of us do not even know exist.

If you have ever sat in that chair and wondered if there is something more, this episode is tailored for you.

🔗 Connect with me:
Website: www.rootingwithinhealth.com
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/rootingwithinhealth
Email: Kimberly@rootingwithinhealth.com

Interested in becoming a dental hygienist? Curious about what this career really looks like? This podcast gives you the real conversations behind the profession.

Passionate about dental advocacy and reform? So am I. Follow along, speak up, and let's push for the changes this profession deserves.

Want to be a guest on the show? Have a story to share or a topic you think needs to be heard? Reach out to: Kimberly@rootingwithinhealth.com.

*If this episode spoke to you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. And don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.

Disclaimer: Kimberly Williamson is a Registered Dental Hygienist, Certified Integrative Health Coach, and Registered Yoga Teacher, but is not YOUR RDH, health coach, or yoga teacher. The content shared in these episodes is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical, dental, psychological, or legal advice. Always consult your physician, licensed therapist, or qualified healthcare provider before making any changes to your health, wellness, or lifestyle.

© 2026 Rooting Within Health. All...

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to Rooting Within Health. I'm Kimberly Williamson. This is a gloves-off podcast. Nothing goes undisclosed. This year, more advocacy, more truth, more conversations that matter to you. Systemic change and reform take time, but we are finding our collective voice together. Thank you for being here. So check it out. It's at rootingwithinhealth.com. Today's guest is someone I connected with on LinkedIn back in December, and I knew immediately that she needed to be on this show. Deborah Daniel is a registered dental hygienist. She has a Master of Health Sciences, a certified health executive, a project management professional, and a Doctorate of Public Health candidate at the University of Toronto. She is currently a program manager at the Regional Municipality of Durham in Ontario, Canada, where she is doing the kind of work most hygienists do not even know is possible for someone with our background. Deborah is also a speaker, a dental hygiene leadership advocate, and a non-clinical career transition specialist who has dedicated her platform to helping hygienists see beyond the operatory. Not because clinical practice is not valuable, but because we are valuable. Our skills, our training, and our patient-centered mindset have a place in rooms far beyond the demo chair. She is also a doctoral candidate researching allied health leadership, asking the question that not enough people in our profession are asking. Why are hygienists not at the table? And more importantly, how do we change that? I have so been looking forward to this conversation. Deborah, welcome to Rooting Within Health. Can you take me back to the beginning? What drew you to dental hygiene uh in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Do you want the political answer or the the truth? Um the truth was um I had gone to a very small high school, and when I started university, um I was completely overwhelmed by how many people were in my class and sort of the lack of support um that was there. And I I wasn't sure it was for me, which was which was different because I was I'm an extreme high achiever and have always had very high marks, um, but I really struggled. So I decided to look at something that at the end would give me a career or something that I could easily take and start working. So I was looking at either nursing or dental hygiene because I always wanted to be in the medical field. And at the time, um, you know, hygiene was only two years versus four years of nursing. And when I had applied for George Brown College in Toronto, um, it was about 2,000 people apply, and they let in around 70. So my 19-year-old decision-making brain was like, oh, well, if you're one of the 3% that get in, I guess you should go. And that was how I made the decision. Um, the other thing is that I really didn't want to wipe people's bums. And um, so I wasn't really sure I wanted to go the nursing route on 12-hour shifts, um, even though I ended up doing it anyways. But those were some of the things that were my decision makers. But really, the biggest one was, well, I got in. Maybe I should go because I guess I'm in that 3%. You practiced for how long? Uh, five years full-time while I was finishing my undergrad, and then 10 years part-time um while I was doing my master's um and then working uh in other areas of healthcare.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

And currently you're pursuing a doctorate of public health um and working in municipal government as well. And you're a mom. You're very busy. Yep. What was the turning point for you? Like what made you want to look beyond the operatory?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Um, I saw I sort of always wanted to, even when I was in dental hygiene school, when we were taking courses on like community health, um, I was really interested in sort of the public health route, um, some of the larger planning and sort of decision making. So I I had already I always felt that I wanted to go into that route, but I never knew how. And when we were in school, they said, you know, if you want to teach or you want to move into public health, you need an undergrad. So I had already started it. I already did one year. And I actually think that going to dental hygiene school and college really helped me in my university because I felt a little bit more mature. And if I was able to handle 11 classes in clinic, how hard could three university classes a semester be? Um, and that was that was really what I did. Um, I went back, my grades were significantly higher. I was much more mature and ready to do university on my own terms. Um, and then what sort of turned was those eight-hour, 12-hour shifts and um my body and just the exhaustion. And then what it could I do this for 40 years? I graduated at 22 from dental hygiene. Um, and I just didn't think I could do it physically for 40 years.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Was there a specific moment for you that you felt like this is the the reason I'm I'm leaving? Or was it just that that combination of the years of doing clinical practice that just kind of compounded for you?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Probably a little bit of both. Um, when I had done my first year of university, we had to pick electives and I chose economics. Um, because I thought I think at the time I was like, economics or physics. Hmm, how much harder could economics be? Um, and because I had taken sort of those first-year economics classes, I was eligible to take third-year health economics. Um, and I basically begged to get into the that class, and the professor let me in, and that changed my life. It changed how I saw healthcare and how cool it was, and how interesting decision making is and how the economics of healthcare actually work. And that's sort of what changed my mind. And I was looking actually into to move into health economics, but because I didn't have a business and economics background, because I had more of a healthcare and science background, the professor was the one who had said, Have you looked into health administration? And that's sort of how I decided to start going that route. Um, the other thing that changed my mind and actually changed my life was applying for a public health role in one of our municipalities and going through the interview process. And the woman who I don't remember her name, but this woman changed my life. At the end of the interview, she sat back and I was talking about how I wanted to do a master's in public health. And she was like, I think you're gonna be amazing here, but I think you're gonna be bored. And I didn't get the job, and it literally destroyed me because what do hygienists do? They go into teaching or they go into public health. And I tried teaching and I was way too young for it. Um, I think I'd be a very different teacher now, but at the time I was terrible at it because I was just too young and too um ill-experienced as a human, not as a hygienist, but as a human. And what am I supposed to do now? And I sort of went through this downward spiral of what am I going to do with my life? Because I don't want to do clinical hygiene for 40 years. And that was really the biggest turning point, or those two things. Um, and I started exploring other options. I was looking at human resources management, but like in hospital and looking for other uh things that I could do in the hospital and other areas of healthcare, but they wanted nurses or they wanted a master's, and I just didn't have it. So that's sort of also what pushed me in the master's route.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Once you obtained your master's, you decided to do what you're doing now, which is pursuing your doctorate in public health with a focus on allied leadership. So, what specifically drove you to that?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

So, I mean, I graduated from my master's 15 years ago. So I graduated in 2011. And my biggest problem, even though I was doing the master's, was still not being the right clinical background, which sucks because I knew my value, but I was very um, I was a little bit of an oddball because I wasn't looking into the dental public health route. And I was looking at more generalized healthcare administration, and hygienists don't go that way. So I was a little bit of that oddball on both sides. So I was really struggling to find my place. Um, and luckily, I did my Master's of health administration at the University of Toronto. Um, and I got incredible advice from my neighbor, who was actually a lawyer that became a legal recruiter. She said to look at programs that are reputable and help you get like paid work terms or co-ops because they're the ones that are going to help you build experience and meet people. And I could have done an online degree, but when I got into the University of Toronto, because of the program, I decided that that was the right move for me. And she was absolutely right. And I was able to do back-to-back-to-back work terms as a student. So I was working as a hygienist on Saturdays to make enough money to pay our bills because I was working on a student salary for a year and a half. I worked in hospital, I worked in home care, and I worked for a provincial cancer agency at the time. That's how I started building experience. And I still struggled. I still was not the right background. Um, so I applied for these health administration fellowships. They're very normal in the US. They're not as common in Canada at the time. This was in 2010, 2011. Um, and I got the one and only Canadian one. Um, so I was the first Canadian and the first hygienist chosen for um this. I it ended up being called a Quality in Patient Safety Fellowship. Uh, it was at a Vancouver Coastal Health, and it was with their um sponsored partner, Airmark Healthcare. So that's sort of how I started. Um, was really just grinding and being a student and learning as much as possible. And then from there, it again was so much struggle. You know, I worked in the hospital as a quality leader, and it was, but you're a hygienist. I don't get it. And I said, okay, do we talk about infection control in the hospital? Yes. Okay, that's literally all I did. Uh, we talk about patient experience in the hospital. We do customer service in hygiene. So I was constantly having to explain my value and my worth. Over time, it gets pretty exhausting. I was very alone in the process. I had wonderful mentors who to this day, you know, I look back and I wouldn't be where I am without them. But the previous registrar of the CDHO, Fran Richardson, she was one of my mentors. And when I cried in her office because there was, I just didn't know what to do, she told me it was okay and that someone had to be the first. As I've gone through, I've met other Allied health professionals who have had similar experiences where the opportunities just aren't there for us in the same way that there are for nursing and physician leadership. That's sort of what has drawn me to want to pursue my doctorate in allied health leadership because I believe that we have the education, the skills, the knowledge, and the experience to provide insight and guidance into strategic decisions about interprofessional and interdisciplinary care.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

That's a great segue, too. So, why do you think that hygienists are not naturally seen as leaders in healthcare? And what is essentially holding the profession back?

SPEAKER_00 13:24

I think there's the the deep rooted culture of the professions. You know, nurses didn't get to where they are in one day. You know, it took time to build that up. Um, and to become, you know, the powerhouses that they are now. For hygiene specifically, I think, you know, when you start out as sort of under a doctor or under the dentist, that is the culture that grew. And then, you know, we've become more independent. We've become, you know, independent providers, um, especially in Canada. But there's still things that we, you know, rely on orders from doctors for. And it's very similar in nursing, but I think they have done um, and they've had more time to do an incredible job making themselves indispensable, and that their voice needs to be at that leadership level. I'm not sure that we have done that in the same way in the profession yet. I think that the CDHA, uh, sorry, the Canadian Dental Hygienist Association is doing a really good job of getting themselves, you know, at that politician level and talking about care as like for people. I don't think it's as forward as a discussion of leadership. And even when I look at programs, um, master's levels, undergrad programs for hygienists, I'm not seeing leadership in the same way that it is in other programs like nursing, PTOT, et cetera. So I think we're not there yet, but I think it's voices like ours that are saying we need that type of leadership, not just clinically, but professionally. And if we want to have a seat at the table, uh, we need to educate ourselves and get the type of experience that the other professions have to get that seat at the table. We haven't earned it yet. I think when you look around the table and you see nurses and PTs and OTs and physicians that have done advanced leadership education, have done advanced health administration education, have done policy education. I don't know how anybody can sit there and say, I deserve to be at that table with my associate's degree without having put in the blood, sweat, and tears for work and education, because everyone around that table has as well. Right? Like the CEOs, all of these people have done advanced leadership education, policy education, accounting, finance, policy, data analysis. So you absolutely are entitled to that seat when you've earned it through your clinical practice and your education and your leadership experience. I'm very honored that uh since I've started my doctorate, I was asked to sit on one of our colleges, like education colleges, um, that has a degree program on their advisory committee. And that's something that if you ask them, I probably never shut up about. Um, which is what are we doing in our education for our undergraduates in things like leadership, health policy, not just oral out, not just oral health policy, that enables um graduates to pursue advanced education in dental hygiene if they choose, or in other topics. So if I do my undergraduate degree, like my BSDH, for example, I should be able to apply to a master's of health administration or a master's of public policy and governance, uh, public administration. Why not? Why, why can't I apply to those? Why do I only have to apply to dental hygiene-related masters? Um, and if our programs aren't setting people up to be able to do that, we're missing something. It doesn't mean we can't add it. I just, I'm not sure if people within the profession think about it. So, for example, how does someone become the registrar of the college or the head of the association or a director level at a dental hygiene school? Like you have to have the education and you have to be able to demonstrate leadership. So, how do you how do you get that? It's through education, building your skills and getting experience in it. And it starts at the clinical level. Be a leader in your own practice, but nobody tells you about it. No one talks to you about the language like quality improvement, project management, um, documentation, policies, all of those things you can do. Um, being your OSHA or your joint health and safety committee leader, um, being responsible for all the supplies in the office, being basically a supply chain manager, onboarding new hygienists, being a team lead. All of these things are the beginning to your leadership journey. And it's the same in other professions, right? You start as a clinical nurse, and then maybe you move to a team late, and then you move to a charge nurse, or you know, so it's the same for us. We just we don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

What do you think, American hygienists? Um, what we can learn from the Canadian model.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I mean, I think that with the introduction of um like self-initiation and the ability to own your own practice, uh and uh some of the movement away from being under a dentist and being able to um have more um self-efficacy and authority is something that the Canadian uh colleges and uh associations have been working extremely hard on for as long as I've been sort of in the profession for the past 20 years. It's learning about leadership and it's learning about policy advocacy, it's learning about stakeholder management, and it's learning about um how to work with others that may not uh see the same view as you, but you guys have to coexist. How the leaders of our associations and colleges have worked with policymakers and dentists to see the value in it, I think there's a lot to learn. But I also think there's a lot to learn from the other professions, like nursing, physiotherapy, respiratory therapy, occupational therapy. What have they done to make themselves irreplaceable? And that they can do their thing, you know, their thing, their work without necessarily a doctor's order all the time or prescription. So, what have other professions done and what can we learn from them?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Nursing kind of figured this out a hundred years ago. And hygiene has sort of not really moved forward too much. I mean, there are some, like in my state, I'm fortunate, like you can do independent practice here, um, but that's obviously not the case for most of the country. Do you think that the US will get there? Or are we just too deep in the system that benefits the people at the top?

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Um, I mean, it's a good question. I don't, I don't know enough about the leaders in the individual states, but there has there's something to be said about who is leading the dental colleges and the dental associations, who is more open to this, and the board members um as well that are part of the decision making. Are they more open? Or is it another round of the same culture of people, you know, that still believe in the same thing from 50 years ago? So it's how do we have more open discussions with more open minded professors? Professionals that see the benefit of it and see how it can help them. But they're also coming from the lens of how does this affect me and how does this affect my practice? And how does this affect me monetarily? If we pretend that that doesn't exist, then like if you're going to work with different stakeholders, you know you need to know what makes them tick and what's important to them when you're talking about policy reform or change. Why would they want to do this? Um, so you need to have people that are politically savvy and great at change management and stakeholder um engagement to be able to have these discussions.

unknown 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

There's a lot of uh talk here in the US about integrating hygienist and other members of healthcare, like collaborative integrative care. So is that something that is already being done in Canada, or is that just also there's just discussions around starting that?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Integrated care and interdisciplinary care is is definitely not a new term here. It's critical in chronic disease management. And there are different programs that include oral health as some component. But yeah, I don't think it's where it should be yet. I think when you know there are some embedded discussions in diabetes care and cardiac care and cancer care, with you know, having dental clinics sometimes in the hospitals or associated with those programs is key. And if we want to talk about integrated holistic care, we need to have the different voices at the table. But how do we get our voice at that table, at that leadership level, where those integrated discussions are coming from? And then where's the funding that flows? So if we're gonna have these interdisciplinary programs where it's funded for, say, a visit with a nurse, a visit with a diabetes educator, a visit with a nutritionist, you know, where is the funding that is gonna go to also have a visit with a, you know, a dental professional? So it's it's not just one thing, but I think again, it it starts, it starts from the bottom under sort of the advocacy lens. And then it also starts at the top from the strategic lens. And how does having oral health care reduce costs in other areas of the system and keep people healthy and safe in the community? That is where we need to be having those discussions because that's what these people are interested in, right? In Canada, our hospitals don't want you, right? Like our goal is to keep you out of hospital. I'll never forget I was driving in Florida. We were driving from Orlando to Tampa, and I had just finished my master's. They had just opened the Harry Potter exhibit at Universal Studios. So my husband said, Where in the world do you want to go after you finish your master's? And I'm like, Harry Potter Land. Um, so that's why we were there. And we were driving, and there was a sign that said, Have a heart attack, come to whatever hospital. And I just, I was shocked because I was just like, No, no, no, don't have a heart attack. Like, stay out of our hospital. It's been lovely to meet you. We're you're better now. I hope I never see you again. As much as I'm like you, I hope I never see you back here again. That is how hospitals here work, right? Like, don't come, stay safe and healthy in the community. So, how is integrating oral health care into these programs helping that? How do we help people stay safe and healthy in the community and not end up back in Hospital?

SPEAKER_01 25:54

You started Beyond Dental Hygiene with your colleague Jess. So, can you tell us more about that endeavor?

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah, so um, we started uh Beyond Dental Hygiene after I actually met Jess um through a speed mentorship event, which was sort of like speed dating, but for mentorship, through one of the associations that I'm part of. And I was talking to a woman and telling her my story, and she said, I know someone like you. And I said, No, no way. In all of my years, I hadn't met another hygienist. I'd met multiple masters-trained hygienists, but not ones who had worked in other areas of healthcare. No, no, no, no, I know someone like you, I know someone like you. And she introduced me to Jess, and we became like instant best friends. And I knew I felt alone, but I didn't realize how alone I had felt for so long. And in talking to Jess, we had such similar experiences, and we said, we can't be the only ones. Like, we can't. So we started this Facebook group. We called it Beyond Dental Hygiene, and we said, hey, let's see what happens. And it's grown. Uh, we have almost 12,000 people in our Facebook group, finally figured out how to start Instagram. Um, and we've started partnering with some other education groups like the National Network for Healthcare Hygienists and RDHU in Canada, and trying to start talking about some of these leadership competencies and courses. And then someone one day said, Hey, can you help me with my resume? Then someone said, Hey, can you help me prep for this non-clinical interview? And that's sort of how we started those additional services. Um, because in Canada, we basically are our own recruiters. Both Jess and I are managers. Uh, she works for um a provincial health authority in British Columbia. And I work for a municipal government in Ontario. And we do our own looking at resumes, we do our own interviewing and hiring. And we've also been through the process ourselves of transitioning out of hygiene. So we started offering those services, and it's not the same as other people who do like, I'll make your resume for you, or I'll give you an interview guide. That's not how we work. I'm a big believer in doing it together. So if I'm helping someone with the resume, we've got, I've got, I'm sharing my screen and we're going through it together. That way you're learning how to maintain your resume and manage it through the rest of your career. I sort of put myself out of business in that way. Um, but then you learn and you take control of your career and you take control of your resume. And then the same thing in interviewing. Interviewing for non-clinical jobs is not even remotely the same. How many people have showed up for their hygiene interviews, smiled and said hi, and they were like, you're hired, you have a pulse, and you're cute and friendly. But that's not that's not how it works in non-clinical roles. Whether it's sales, insurance, education, dental, non-dental, they're gonna ask you questions that you need to be able to answer. So that's really what we do. We're in the process of changing the name from Beyond Dental Hygiene to Beyond Clinical Practice only because uh we got feedback that it sounded like we're encouraging people to leave dental hygiene, but we're not. We're encouraging people to look beyond just clinical, if and when they feel they want to or need to, and empower them to take control of their career by taking control of their resume and what their transferable skills are, as well as learning how to talk in an appropriate corporate or non-clinical way when you're being asked questions in an interview. And that's sort of the bottom-up approach to having more hygienists moving through non-clinical careers, but you can still be in hygiene.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

What I think is so great about what you're doing with Jess is that you're saying, no, you can expand and still remain in the field, but let's highlight what you're really good at and see how how we can, you know, implement this into a leadership role. In talking about that, what are the most surprising career paths that you have witnessed?

SPEAKER_00 30:20

I wouldn't say I've had anything like crazy surprising, um, but the roles have been very interesting. Um, so some of the insurance-related ones related to like fraud and compliance have been super interesting. I've worked with a couple hygienists that wanted to become educators. So some of them are at the college level, some of them are at the university level, and some who are going into teaching dental assistance. So there's just been more interesting roles that I hadn't seen before, whether it was different types of sales roles, um, and then different roles in public health. And especially in public health where the dollars are are being really having to be stretched, there's a lot more um integration of those roles across larger teams and larger practices, and including other healthcare professionals. There was someone I helped um prep for an interview who was looking for, it was a specific role in a public health unit, but it oversaw multiple clinics of multiple disciplines. So it wasn't just dental hygiene, it was dental nursing, pharmacy. So that was really interesting to see that it was more of an interdisciplinary leadership role across multiple clinics. It's possible, um, but you have to know where to look. And a lot of people don't even know where to look. They think, oh, just LinkedIn or indeed. And that that's there's so many other places to look. And we actually have that on our website of like different things you should think of, different things you can uh consider um when looking. And then, you know, to reach out to us if they need help with their resume or even prepping for an interview.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

If a hygienist is thinking that they need to get out of clinical practice, where would you suggest they start?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I think they need to start looking at some different roles that they may be interested in and see what starts sparking their interest. So some looking at your local hospitals and looking at the roles that are there and looking at a, if it interests you. So some people like um like health records and coding, for example, um insurance coding, again, a lot bigger in the US than it is in Canada. So look at those roles, see if it's something that interests you, and then look at the education they're looking for. If it says, you know, I want someone who has, you know, five years of coding and data and a little analytics experience, and then you realize that it's a level two position, maybe you want to look at a level one position and see what they're looking for and the type of education they recommend. And then that actually can help you with your career planning. Some of these programs and these certifications are online or they can be done hybrid while you're working. I hear a lot of people make comments about how, oh, I can't do that program. I'm working full time. I have kids. Okay. I'm working full time, I'm doing a doctorate full-time, and I've got but two kids, uh, six and under. So it is possible if you want it. I know funds are difficult for people these days. Um, and it's not easy to invest in education because it is expensive. And luckily, I have a partner um that we can split the bills with, but I had to get a student line of credit. I had to get a student loan uh to be able to go back to school. I had a student loan for hygiene, undergrad, master's, and now my doctorate. Um, and it's taken time to pay it back. This is a long-term investment, but it will be worth it. It is worth it. And it's making the decision to invest in yourself. Sometimes we talk to people who let's say do have their associate's degree and they are considering going back to school, but not yet. And they're desperate to get a clinical for whatever reason, whether it's their body, their mind, whatever their reason is. And I show them, you know, some roles that may be possible, let's say in the hospital, which is a little bit more entry level. And they're like, well, I can't. That money is too low. And you're not gonna make $60 to $80 an hour in a more administrative role to start when you're leaving something that is highly specialized, right? We make so much money in hygiene because of how specialized our education is and what we do. So you have to be prepared for that shift. And that's okay. Both Jess and I did that. And it took us a few years to build back what our income is. And now we far exceed it. But people also forget that you then get paid vacation, you get benefits. And depending on where you're working, um a pension or an RRSP or a 401k that you can pay into. So even if the money is less, there are other things that can help it, let's say while you're going to school or you're building yourself up. If again, it is something that you are able to afford that pay cut. So there's there's costs and benefits to all decisions. But if you're going to get to the point where you cannot physically work anymore and you have not done any additional education or experience, we would look at the different types of roles that are available to you based on what you have done. And that's why we talk about constantly what else can you do in your clinical practice? Can you work at the front? Can you do policies and procedure documentation? Can you look at your processes and say, you know what, we're not doing that so well and lead a process improvement initiative? Are you guys implementing a new software system? That's a project, right? So there are opportunities in clinical practice that you can do that aren't just clinical that help you build up your skills that you can put on a resume. Could you go a little bit deeper?

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Might be helpful for them to know what to write in their resume, or they can reach out to you.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Well, they definitely can reach out to me anytime. Um, nothing makes me crazier than seeing x-rays and cleaning or scaling teeth. X-rays are part of an assessment. And as hygienists, we do assessments, right? We look into the math. We take intra-oral pictures, we do perio, we do probing, we do all these different types of things. We take x-rays, we work with other professions and other professionals to come up with what we're seeing. All of that is data points in our assessment that help us come to a decision for a treatment plan in collaboration with the patient. It's not just x-rays. That is something that we do, but it's part of a bigger assessment phase. And cleaning teeth or scaling is part of our implementation of that treatment plan. And it's something that we evaluate and then we look at it and we're like, hmm, did we do this okay? Do we need something else? Do they need medication? Do they need fluoroxidine rants? Do they need blazer? Do they need whatever? Do they need period? And then we do it again. And what's funny is you've just done API, you know, assessment planning, implementation evaluation. And guess what? I do that in project management too. I look at what the problem is, we determine what the problem is, we assess what the problem is, we work with our clients to determine what we're gonna do to solve the problem. We plan it, we implement it, we evaluate it, and we're like, hey, we have some opportunity for continuous improvement here. What are we gonna do next? Lo and behold, what you do in clinical API is what I do in project management and what we do in quality improvement with PDSA cycles. So there's tons of transferable things that we do, but we never talk about it. It's like the best kept secret. Again, there are people out there who you can pay to redo your resume, but what have you learned in that? How are we gonna talk about it? I think there are more voices, right? You're doing this podcast, you're building something, you're giving people like me a platform to talk about it. Um I'm doing my doctorate specifically because I want, I want to be able to have a voice at a different level. And I think the more of us that are pursuing additional education, that are opening up the doors for these conversations and having leadership that is starting to also have these conversations, it is where we're started. But ultimately, we also need to start in our education. It needs to be part of dental hygiene education. The universities, the medical schools, uh, the dental schools, there are a lot of courses now that are interdisciplinary. So if you're taking, let's say, health policy, when I did my master's in health administration, there were nurses that weren't in my program. They were from a different program in that class. There's lots of classes that um, like anatomy, you know, that dentists and doctors I hear in certain programs actually take them together. So it's that type of stuff that we need to start seeing more of for people to realize why we're all there together. And it's happening, um, but I'm not sure how much it's happening in in hygiene yet. And there probably are pockets of extreme excellence that we should be learning from on how they're doing it.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

What you were saying earlier about being busy and people make excuses essentially for not moving on. You are a spin instructor, body pump instructor, you're a mom to two kids, you have a husband. I must have a dog. Okay, you're a full-time employee and a doctoral student, and you're running this um company with your colleague. So how do you actually do all of that? And what drives you to keep pushing, you know, in that direction to keep going and keep um, you know, pushing for greater change?

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Well, I mean, I haven't like it's been a while since I've been in school. Like it's been 10 years since I did my project management uh professional certification and education. Um, and I've taken like micro-credentials along the way. But I figured sort of at the time of my life where my kids are still a little bit younger, I have the opportunity to do this. And my husband's always known that I wanted to do this. And he also knew he had zero choice in the matter. It was gonna happen anyways. It was just a matter of time. And he's actually been amazing at helping, you know, pick things up around the house and doing a little bit more of that. I'm sure he begrudgingly hates it, but uh um, he knew it was coming one day. I think it for me, deciding to do this came actually from starting this group with Jess and hearing other professionals having the similar experiences that we've had. And it kind of helped drive me towards this. I also have an extremely supportive boss who understands what I'm doing and why I want to do it. So I also had the same thing actually when I was in dental practice. When I started my master's, I was working full-time. And the two dentists that I worked for, they didn't pay for my education or anything like that, but they were supportive of me doing it and thought it was great. So I think finding people that support you formally or informally has helped me. And it's all about managing time, right? Like I get up, I, you know, take the kids to school, I take one, my husband takes the other, take the dog out, spend my day working, do stuff with the kids, then they go to bed. And then, you know, by 8:30, 9 o'clock, I'm working on school. I do take Friday nights and Saturday nights off from doing school work, um, unless there's something big happening. And because I was an instructor before, um, a spinning and body pump instructor at Good Life Fitness in Canada that has the Les Mills program, I continued it. And it forces me to exercise. And it's so important because I can tell you, if I didn't have to be going to teach spinning tonight, I would not be. Um, but because I have to, because it's my job, it's also forcing me to do that. And I've spoken to other people who have done their doctorates uh while working full-time and having kids. And most of their answers are the same as mine is you just do it. You just find the time. Um, and some days you're more tired than others, and then you take a break. Like, I'm like counting down to the end of the semester and like, when am I going away for a weekend to just do nothing? But you have to be driven for it, I think. I think you have to want to, or it's gonna feel like a chore.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

What do you say to the hygienists out there who are feeling this heavy weight of knowing that they're ready to do something else, but they don't have maybe that motivation? Is there any sort of recommendation you would give them to help those next steps?

SPEAKER_00 43:30

There's a light at the end of the tunnel, but you have to get to the tunnel. And that tunnel might be more education. That tunnel might be taking an administrative role that maybe pays a little bit less, uh, that will you balance doing hygiene? There is a way to look at transitioning out of clinical, but it takes work, right? It's a change. But once you start moving towards it, once you start getting help, let's say, let's say you come to us. And we're starting to help you with your resume and looking for jobs. And you start interviewing, you start feeling like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe you go back to school and you take that coding program and you start applying to sort of the level one uh data coding roles or something like that, you start feeling like it's not hopeless. But when you stay with exactly what you're doing day over day and are just complaining about it, which trust me, I've done. Um, and you have every right to complain. Um, but you're gonna be stuck. And the only way to get unstuck is to start doing something, uh, whatever that is, looking at education, looking at other jobs, and that light really starts shining brighter as you move towards it. You have to take that step. And it's it's one of the hardest parts of this process is actually making the decision to even consider it and then starting to look into it because then it becomes real.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

I would also suggest friending people on LinkedIn or cold reach accounts because people on LinkedIn love to chat, like they do, and it's great. So I met so many awesome people, but they do. They love sharing their stories and sharing how they got to be where they are, and it provides such insight. And if you can also go into offices, um, you know, maybe it's in an administrative role or in a hospital setting and just kind of job shadowing like you might have done before when you went to hygiene school. What do you want dental hygienists we're listening now to take away from your personal story?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Someone else has done it, someone else has slogged through the you're just a hygienist, what do you know? Uh, you just went to college, what do you know? You just have an associate's, what do you know? Actually, no, I have a university degree and I have a master's degree. Right. And that a, you're not alone. You know, if you join a community like our Facebook group, Beyond Dental Hygiene, there's 12,000 other people who you can ask and you can talk to. People message me all the time and they just want to talk. They're not necessarily looking for, you know, help with a resume yet. They're they're willing to put themselves out there and ask for an information interview with someone on LinkedIn. And that's sometimes how you get interviews and how you find out about things, just by asking for an information interview. So there's so much you can do. And I think we just want people to know, and I just want people to know that they're not alone. And there's other people who have done it out there that are willing to help. But with respect, if you come to me and say, I want to make $100,000 an hour, work from home, pick up my kids from school, um, and not do any additional education or work, I can't really help you. Nobody can, because that doesn't exist. So you have to be willing to make a sacrifice somewhere. But in the long term, I am making so much more money than I ever could in hygiene. And I lead a team. I've I've had so many great opportunities because I've worked hard and I've put myself out there. And it's hard. It's hard when people don't respond to you. It's hard when an information interview doesn't go well. It's hard when you get fired from a job. No, I've been fired. It's hard, but it's just part of the journey. And it is a journey.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

And you and Jess, you both are creating this live session. So can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Yeah. So we're doing a leading from the operatory and beyond uh through RDHU. And it's a 10-week uh leadership program where we talk about leadership, leadership skills, um, and different things that you can actually start implementing right in your clinical practice. Or maybe you're a little bit beyond that and it's still applicable. Maybe you've moved on to an administrative role. Um, leadership is a mindset and it's not like you get education in it, but it's still a mindset within yourself. Um, so that starts on March 26th and it runs for 10 weeks. It's um an inaugural program that we're really excited about. And if you don't want to do something live, we also have a leadership and quality improvement program uh that's all virtual and uh self-paced learning with the National Network of Healthcare hygienists. We're really excited about being able to offer some of these courses, either virtually or live, with other hygienists that are looking to start making this move. And this is also a great way to start learning about it without, you know, having to apply for a new university or something like that to see if it if it's what works for you. And you get CE credits too. So it's it's sort of a win-win for that, for your your current practice as well. And then you're like, oh my God, maybe I'm already doing this in my clinical practice. And I didn't even know that I was a leader. I helped a wonderful hygienist in Texas uh with her resume. And we were going, she was talking about all this stuff, and you know, we're working on our resume together, and then she said something about her team, and I was like, excuse me. I was like, what team? She goes, Oh, I have like eight people that report to me. I'm like, you're a team leader? Why is it not on your resume? So you don't necessarily see the things that you're doing until you start talking to someone. So we, you know, anyone who wants to join um either our live class through RDHU, uh, we would love to have you. Uh, they can look at the program on the website. And if they're looking for something that's more self-paced, we've got um the online program with uh the NNHH as well online. Um and if they just want to talk to someone, they're welcome to join our Facebook group, which is Beyond Dental Hygiene, and our startup Instagram group that I'm still learning how to use. I'm very good at lots of things, but Instagram was still available, uh, which is beyond clinical practice. And do you have a website for people to also connect with? So it's beyondclinicalpractice dot com, or if they go to the old name, which was beyond dentalhygiene.ca, it'll it'll go to the same place. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you really want dental hygienists to hear? Your skills are transferable, but it's how you position them and it's how you position yourself. And if you're looking to move out of your clinical role, it doesn't mean that you're leaving hygiene. It just means that you're moving on to a different part of your career. And that's okay. There's the clinical part of your career. I had my clinical part of my career, you had your clinical part of your career. And now you're excited to do something else and take that experience that you've had and apply it just in a different way to a different place. And it could be insurance, sales, hospital, uh, projects, quality improvement, change management. But if you're like, oh God, I don't know how to do that or I don't know what to say, get help. Right? Like that's what we're here for. And that's what we're trying to do is that you're not alone. Invest in yourself, ask for help. So it's really that next step. You've decided you want to make a change, which is totally cool. You're done your clinical, you're ready to try something different. It doesn't mean you failed. It just means you're ready for something different. And then the second step, start looking into it and get some help. Talk to someone because we're here. Uh, we're busy, but we're here. And I always make time to talk to people, whether it's just over Facebook, Instagram, a text, LinkedIn, whatever who have questions. So reach out. You're not alone.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

If you're a dental hygienist listening to this right now, whether you're feeling burned out, curious, restless, or just quietly wondering if there's something more, I want you to sit with what Deborah just shared with us. Because I hear you. I am you. I have stood in that operatory wondering if this is all there is. And what Deborah's story reminds me is that the skills we built in that chair are not just dental skills. They are healthcare skills, leadership skills, communication skills. We have been assessing, educating, advocating, and building trust with patients every single day. That does not disappear when we step out of the chair. It continues on with us. Her story is proof that the degree that got us licensed is not the ceiling. There is an entire world of public health, leadership, policy, program management, education, and advocacy waiting for hygienists like us who are willing to ask what is next. You do not have to leave dentistry to grow. But you do have to give yourself permission to imagine something bigger and to give yourself permission to start. I hope today's conversation planted that seed for you. Thank you so much, Deborah, for being here, for your honesty, and for showing up for this profession in a way that goes far beyond the clinic. You can find Deborah on LinkedIn, and I will have all of her information linked in the show notes. Until next time, keep rooting within.