Back to Back Kent Denver, Playoff Preview, West is Best

In this episode Coach Nygren and Ian discuss the back to back Colorado 4A State Champs, Kent Denver and their magical run as well high school basketball in the state of Colorado. Playoff preview, Coach Nygren apologizes to the Timberwolves, and there is no one in the East that can beat anyone in the West.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Alright, coach. Congratulations, back to backstage champs for Kent. Thank you. Back to Backstage Champs. Oh yeah. It was another impressive run. I saw a few of your games this year, and uh one of the things that I really liked, and we were just talking about this before we started today, was um you guys have an ability to run. You guys uh which is really fun to watch a bunch of Gen Zers and Gen Alpha kids run around because I don't really see that often. I feel like basic physical fitness isn't very good in in kids that age. But yeah, um, you know, I I I saw you guys play. Uh I believe they're a 5A, a 5A or a 6A uh high school in in Smokey Hill.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Yep, Smoky 6A. We played three games in the beginning of the season that were 6A teams. Actually, more than that. We played I think six six A teams and we're a four A school, so yeah, preseason tournaments and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Just the quality of the athletes, quality of the coaching, you know. Huge kudos to you, uh Coach Shay. Uh, you know, it's it's it's pretty cool to watch you do that. Um appreciate it. You know, we we come on here and we talk basketball all the time. Uh and we talk about pros and and occasionally college level, but there is a level that those athletes have to go through, and that is high school. It's high school. We have a smoke detector. If you hear any uh any reverb of a squeak, it's that we thought it was a bird, but it's probably a smoke detector.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

We're just gonna have to roll through it. I think we're just gonna have to deal with the uh with the detector. We're just gonna plow right through it. So no worries.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

But we you know, the it's a level that all of those athletes have to go through at some point in their life. And um, you know, I'm fortunate enough that I get to be involved in a lot of things in my life where I get to see people who are born to do something, and I watch you on the sidelines, watching watching these kids, working with these kids, and it becomes very obvious that some people are just born to do something, and you are born to be on the sidelines of a basketball team. Appreciate that. Uh and it's very cool to see. I am stoked you guys won back to back. Um, you know, we 95 points in the title game yesterday. Uh that's three points a minute.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Most most points ever in a state final since 1975.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

All right, cool. Well, I wasn't even alive then. And I I you either I was alive in 75. Barely. Two. You were two. It was two. Okay, all right. Well, yeah. Well, you didn't have cognitive memories. All right, so 95 points. I mean, there's there's not enough to say. Um I'm assuming you have the player of the year.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

I'd be stunned if has that been announced. It won't be announced for a little while, and the uh like the all-state stuff comes here within the next week or two. All of the postseason awards come, you know, within within two weeks. I'd be stunned if Caleb didn't get the three-time player of the year award. I I don't know who else, you know. We played some really good teams, and there we had a couple other really good players who were gonna be probably first team all 4A. One of our, one of his teammates, one of our other players, Sam Glynn, has a really good chance of being, he was definitely tournament MVP for us, I think. Um he led us most nights, and Caleb had an amazing final game, 32 points to seal it and to you know to lead us in scoring, to lead the whole gym in scoring, I think. I'm not sure anybody else scored that much in the entire day, all classes, but um I'd be stunned if there was yeah, I think if he doesn't get it, it would be somewhat political in terms of like maybe they had to give it to somebody else. I'd be blown away if he didn't get it. So um for him to do what he's done in four years at Kent to be at 20, 200 plus points, to have uh two state championships, a state runner-up, which the first year I joined the the coaching staff, we were we got beat in the state final, and then they were the number one seed four years in a row. So we've been number one seed now three years, and then the year before I got here, they were number one seed as well, but got beat, I think, in the grade eight or the final four, and I forget which which round that was. So his career alone would warrant any award. Uh, you know, even I think he's in the running for the the Gatorade player of the year in the entire state. Now I think that leans sometimes they give that to the 6A player who's the player of the year. That's sort of how that's worked in years past, most years. I'm not sure how many years they haven't given it to a 6A guy.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Or used to be 5A, now 6A. So I I wouldn't be stunned if he gets that. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'd be like, oh wow, that's that's amazing that he they were he was recognized for that. I do think he's first team all state. Yeah, yeah. Like if you took five of the best players in the state, I think he's one of those kids for sure. Uh we have some really good players in the state, no shade on anybody. Um kids that are going to CSU and kids that are um have other places to play college basketball. So um, no, it's uh, you know, I I appreciate what you said about you know being born to do this kind of thing. And I've thought about this actually over the past I think about it all the time, but especially recently, like how it feels to be on the courts and and how it feels to coach and do things. Now, born or not, I made a commitment when I was like 13, I think the age was, when I bought my first pair of Jordans, and I bought them on my own. They were they are Jordan 2, and I still have them, uh, and they're still in my closet within the same box. Yep. And so once I decided to kind of, you know, pick my first true hero, which was Michael Jordan, and it took off for me from there. So from that point on I became obsessed. And I have not paused on the obsession, on the on the uh just absorption of basketball. And I'm at the point now where I've been coaching in basketball at some coaching or scouting since 1996, and you know, all the NBA teams and all the high school teams that I've been around and and been a part of, but I feel like I have a really good grasp on watching things. Yeah, and it sometimes it gets in my way because I'll try to teach something, and I I think I'm good at interpreting it, but I'm almost like, don't you see that? Yeah. And I take it for granted that maybe I don't, and I I this may probably sound arrogant, I don't give a fuck. But I see it. Like I I'll, you know, and I think as as as coaches, we sit there, like you can see a play, and I'm I can visualize it right now, looking on our court, where a player's gonna be open, or if they just you know, you see the ball start to ping around the perimeter and you're like, uh-huh. We get one more cut and we see it and it happens. And yeah, and so from that standpoint, it's I think that's a trained thing for uh for the most part, but um but being around like our staff, I think we have eight assistant coaches, maybe even nine. One of them was a um, we've got a couple like assistant coaches that are former players or students that came back or something like that, friends of the program that just help us out. And so we have a great, you know, bunch of different levels of experience from you know, Coach Shays being here 32 years, and you know, you know, Coach Zinn has been a former head coach, Coach Judd has been a former head coach. Um, you know, I've been in basketball for 30 years. It's the the idea share that we have is is incredible, and it's just a blast to sit in the room and you have all these differing opinions, and everybody's willing to be like, no, just tell me what you got, show me. And so I think the willingness of our staff to to get out of their own way, our own way, and this championship and last year's championship, I think truly was one years ago when Coach Shays just started to decided to start to play faster.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

So back to your talk on speed, and this'll we'll peel into the NBA on this too. Yeah, yeah. Um, but the the speed decision, I almost watch basketball now and I'm like, why would you want to do it any differently? Totally. Yeah. And and I I'm a firm believer, and I've been like this for years, and being with Kent now, so last year we were the number one scoring team in the country. Yeah. Uh 87 points per game or something like that. This year, we were top ten, I think, in the country. I'd never saw their ranking, but we were number one in the state at least, and at like 86 points a game.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Last year was a pretty wide margin, too.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

Uh there were two teams, it was us and um uh Southampton. So in the I was like, I told jokingly, I told Coach Chazen, like, let's go to the Hamptons, let's play a game again in Southampton and see who scores more points. And uh and but the commitment to just take the you know, take your hands off of it. Yeah, totally. And so one of the things that I'm working with other coaching buddies of mine is sort of this consultancy thing where we we take a look at teams and how they play, and if a coach is willing to let us talk about it, it you know, it we think we can help. Yeah. Now maybe that's arrogant, maybe that's like we think we know it, but we do know it.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

I here's the thing though, I don't think it's arrogant, you know. Like I I started this episode purposefully this way without telling you how I was gonna start it, because I I've been fortunate enough to watch one of my really good friends do what he loves to do. And it's fun to see that. And so, you know, you talk about being able to see things, and you know, I when I watch taekwondo in the Olympics, I can see things as they're happening, and I can kind of like map it out, and I've you know, and I and I sit there and I'm like, oh yeah, this is why I'm not this is why I'm not good at coaching, because I would sit there and be like, why can't you why can't you see that coming? Um that's a totally different demeanor, but outside uh but outside of that, like you I just watch you and there's moments where I'm like, Yep, yep. You know, your your semifinal game against Tidnith, there was a moment where the the there was a sequence of plays, um, and I'd uh I could pull it up on YouTube and show you, but there was a moment where I was I was typing emails and I was uh watching the game and I I looked and I saw something happen and I was like I was like, oh, yeah, this is about to happen right now. Like something, okay, yeah, all right, cool. Um I had to use a hand signal, but I'm not telling anyone what that means. But um I I was I was like, oh, there's gonna be a shift in in play here. That's our play call. One of our play calls. Yeah, and and I was like, okay, like this is cool to watch you want to share what you know about this game and and share it with anybody who's gonna listen.

SPEAKER_04 11:20

Right, that's a true story.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

And so much so that like some of the things that you say and that we talk about rub off on me in certain ways. And um, you know, I I can't say enough. I'm super proud of you, the boys, thank you, the entire staff. Um you know, I'm not a particular fan of teams specifically, unless this was the 90s and I was in Chicago, but um, you know, it's it's been fun watching Caleb and grow up into the player he is, you know. So Caleb Fay, congrats on the incredible two seasons that you've uh Superman that that I've gotten to watch you play. Yeah. Um and yeah, so you you know it's it's uh I'm super proud of you and and the team, and it was really fun to watch it all culminate in another title. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

Um it I think the again it just happened yesterday, so you know, as a staff, we went out and had some cocktails. March 14th, by the way, for where is that? Um yeah, March 14th. Um so we went out and and I had I remember walking out of the bar last night, or you know, afternoon, because we we won around one o'clock, one fifteen, and we went to the bar, whatever. And I literally walked out of the bar and I for the first time I just I had this really big like oh man. It was just the first time I had a chance to let it go. And literally there's a guy walking into the bar and he goes, I hear you. He goes, I'm familiar, he's sort of like, I get it. And I was like, Oh, that was that loud enough that some guy outside the bar heard me do that. And winning one is incredible. And I know what we went through to do that and how we even getting close to the year before. So we got beat year one in the final, and then one year two, and that was like, oh my gosh, an exhale, like we're doing this right. But to do it this year, where you know, all throughout the season, friends, you know, you included, would ask, like, can you guys do it again? And I'm like, I think we can. I think we're really good. Yeah, I think we can. You know, the roster is this, and our the teams we play against are this, and I don't know who else in the state is going to be that good. Turns out there's a couple really good teams in the state that's some there's great teams. We we got past and and that couple maybe we didn't get a chance to play that and would have given us a test as well. But to get through it, where it's almost like, all right, we won one, we're supposed kind of supposed to win the second one, and that's even more difficult than the first, I think, just because you you your margin for error just goes just shrinks a little bit more. And I was actually thinking about this in terms of the NBA. Even today, I was thinking about Oklahoma City and thinking about um even watching the Laker Nugget game last night where you know Lake, I was I kind of turned it off because Nuggets were up. No, Nuggets were down. They were down, they're down like 20 Clark Ruby. Yeah. And then, you know, all of the plays that happened in the end of the OT and in the overtime by both teams, the big threes, the you know, Jokic's skip pass to Hardaway in the corner who made it, and then you know, even before that, where Reeves, which is an incredible play to pull off when you try to intentionally miss a free throw and you hit the rim and it comes off in a way that you can, and I'm I'm not sure he, I'm sure he meant to do it, but I'm sure the way it turned out was kind of you know fortunate to bounce his way. Yeah, but he line drived it into the rim and it kind of went down to the left and he just ran over to the left, caught it, and scored. Yeah. And high IQ play, of course, there's a number of ways that people always talk about how do you miss a free throw intentionally? Do you go high and long and make it bounce and give yourself a chance? But he was like bang, quick, went to the left, caught it, shot it. But that is to say, all of those things, the margin for error of any one of those plays, somebody could say, Nuggets, you know, gotta look at them, claw back and win that game, and here they come. And you can say whatever you want, a hot take on, or the nuggets coming, or the nuggets, whatever, and then you could say the same thing about LA, and you're like, oh my God, you know, hot take on, you know, Lakers are ready to go, they're prepared. Finally pulling it together, yada, yada. None of it's true, all of it's true. Right? Doesn't i the the great thing about all of this, and the the one thing I love about listening to these hot takes and TV shows, or you know, other pods and all this other bullshit is like everybody thinks they have the answer. Yeah, and maybe they do in the moment, but it could it the margin for error of it flipping is that small. So that going back to like repeating for like Oklahoma City to do this again is is you know, can you set aside expectations and play like it doesn't matter? And I think NBA teams probably can because the roster is completely different, um or somewhat different, you know, new guys is pretty much the same. Well, but Jared McCain now, what a stolen he was nearly rookie of the year until he got injured, and now he's on the best team in the league. Like, get the f I mean this is awesome. I love it for them. But still, you know. I love Jared McCain.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

It's it's funny because I was thinking about that as I was driving over here. I was like, oh, like this is not too dissimilar, where like you're still, you know, one of the you're the top scoring team in this day, you know, you're kind of occasionally running away with games, you know, by the, you know, the at least some of the games I had the privilege of watching, you know, I I would sit there and watch high school students be gassed by the end of the second or or or like mid-third, and I'm like, yeah, you're all supposed to have way more energy than I do, but you know, and and and that's not a testament to these athletes and how they prepare. That's that's just a that's a uh it's a it's an extra gear that somehow you know you have been able to instill in in a lot of your players, and and you've even talked about it, you know, when we had Coach Carl on the podcast. Um you guys played with pace back then, and you were it was you were insane. But if by today's standards, it's slow. It's very slow.

SPEAKER_04 17:17

Which just means you're never out of it. And and I'm gonna get in the weeds a tiny bit here because I've been thinking about this a lot, and no one ever really talks about it, even though it's pretty obvious and it's pretty logical. A point in the first quarter is not worth as much as a point in the fourth quarter. Possessions are worth more in the end than they are in the beginning of a game because time. You're running out of time. So the factor of time is changing. So a point or a possession in the fourth quarter is far more valuable in relative value to the to the first possession. And so what playing fast allows you to do is make that margin, make that variable less important because you have more of them.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Right? So if you have a, let's just say a hundred possession game and we want to play at a pace that's more like 120 a game, well, we've just now made those possessions less valuable over time. Right. So because we can get another one. Yeah. And that's the I think that's the benefit of playing fast. Now the negative is it can absolutely kick you in your ass in the same way. Like if another team decides that they want to do it that same way and they just they catch a hot night and we get beat, right? And in the NBA, I think in the NBA, teams are they're they're just as deep, so they are playing ten guys. Most NBA teams are gonna play ten guys, at least nine in their rotation. So you have fitness isn't quite as important as like with our team with Kent, we have ten guys that we play every night. We play ten dudes. Yeah. And, you know, I think seven of those guys could probably start. Three of those guys are more backup type players or role or minutes or you know, small, small role, or you know, not small, not um, just you know, less minutes than our starters for sure. Yeah. But, you know, if you don't have that on the other end, like when our high school games, we played against a bunch of teams that had three really good players, even Tin Myth and even uh university, three really good players. But then there was a drop-off. And they just didn't have it, right? They, you know, it's so much fun to watch, and I don't know the equivalent of this in the NBA, but it's so fun to watch a team hang hang with us for a quarter, second quarter, maybe they're still there, but they're down a few points, and then third quarter they come out and they maybe start well in the third quarter, but by the end of the third, we're up 20. Yeah. And then in the end of the fourth, it's now a 30-point game and the shit's over.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Well, and and you know, one of the things that like I I noticed from watching games last year and this year is somehow you were able to keep the boys motivated. And when you're going for a back-to-back, sometimes that motivation slops off. Um and and that's why I was thinking about it, like, okay, okay, she's attempting to do the same thing. Now, it's not to say that they haven't gotten everybody's best during the regular season. You know, you're the champ, everyone wants to give you their best. But there are some nights when the teams are like, oh no, we're not, we're not doing this.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

Every 82 games, that's reasonable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah. And so now it's like, okay, well, the playoffs are about to start. And in those games, especially if OKC draws San Antonio, at some point, you know, prior prior to the Western Conference finals, the Western Conference is such a nightmare. Like, I'm watching the standings do this every night because Well, you're watching only three through ten do that.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Yeah, which is one and two aren't moving.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

One and two are lots. Which is so fun to watch.

SPEAKER_04 20:44

Like these two, like, no, we're not, we're not doing anything different. This is great.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

But you know, San Antonio obviously all season had a chip on their shoulder when they were playing OKC, which was interesting to watch. But all of a sudden, the expectation and the motivation, I think, starts to change when a team is ready to give OKC everything for a full series.

SPEAKER_04 21:07

What I see happening, and I had this, we had the exact conversation, Coach Carl and I, and another um a guy that was on the staff with Coach with Nuggets 10 years ago, whatever, who's now in the front office of the Nuggets, and I won't name him just to keep him anonymous, but um, a good buddy of mine in basketball, we were all kind of sitting around talking about how you know, why, why there's a difference. Like what do they have versus you know the other thing. We were talking about fouls, we were talking about physicality, and we're talking about different things. But then I have a couple points here to make, one on the competition part of it, but but just sort of a technical aspect of we talked about it on the other pod where Oklahoma City and Detroit and like New York and you know San Antonio for sure, yeah, they're just physical. Yeah, and they they start physical, they maintain physicality, and they foul a lot, and they they they're good at getting. Fouls. Um, you know, that the drawing foul is a skill. We talked about that before as well. So they just play differently. And they do have younger players, they have uh more energetic players. Denver is a little bit older than the other teams. San Antonio has a bunch of you know, first three or four year dudes other than Fox that are and um um the Carolina guy, um, I'm blanking on his name, uh Barnes. Oh, yeah. He's older, right? But but everyone else, young and motivated and fast and athletic and and has the energy for it. So that is to say, that's why they have separated themselves because they they do it in their own way, and the referees can't call it all. We talked about that already, too. Yeah. But you know, you'll find teams where they drop off, and if you go through these teams of like the average age of these teams, now some of these really bad teams are really young, so it's sort of like it's a it's uh it's an anomaly that age age is helps you win, but age can also make you lose.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

No question. But San Antonio it's there.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

Structure star, right? Uh guys that buy in. Now their young players are elite. Right. You know, you look at San Antonio Sacramento, their young players are not elite, no offense, but they're good. Your guy's good. Look, I love the guy. But that um but that team is in trouble. Like Sacramento doesn't have winning players.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, there's no direction for there's no franchise direction, right? It is a team where every other player can mimic Neek's skill set, yeah, for example. You know, it's it's it's a bunch of guards.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

Yeah, he he has the you know, he's he's good, but he's there's a bunch of guys like him. But yeah, but the the teams that are bad just don't have good enough decision makers to make it happen, nor do they have stars. So, but back to what like what we were talking about in terms of you know winning it again, their roster's a little different.

unknown 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

You know, Jared McCain is energy. So they added him and he's a ball of it. You know, he's a high-energy guy, he makes big shots, takes big shots, isn't afraid of the moment, that kind of thing. Oklahoma City, what I was gonna say about this is you either are or you aren't competitive. That's fun, yeah. It's not like you if if you've won one and you want to take a gear off and maybe chill for the next season, you're not, that's not who you are.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

You you you were you were maybe at one point, but now you've decided I that's not as important to me anymore. Maybe longevity in the career, or you know, whatever. I don't know, think priorities change. But I do believe Oklahoma City is just competitive. It's just you are or you aren't. And I think San Antonio just is. And the one of the reasons why one of my favorite moments this season, more like kind of like oh my gosh moments, was watching San Antonio play the Clippers a week ago. And I don't know what led up to this. Um Wembanyama had a really good game, they beat Kawhi and the Clippers, and after the game, he's being interviewed and he's crying. And the the gal interviewing him was like, tell me what's going what's going on. And he was just like, This has just been a lot. And it's you know, we we've fought through these things and it's been really difficult. But what I saw in him was he loves this so much. Yeah, like he wants this so bad. And you watch him, you know, uh emote always on the floor and everything, that shit matters. 100%. And and and it they j they have a joy in playing together, they they love their group. We've talked about the Oklahoma City group standing together for an interview. That's fuck yes, do more of that. Yeah, you know what we we we chastise players all the time for being individuals and not being a team player, you know, in the media. I guess people do that. But we we also make fun of Oklahoma City because they do their press conference together. Fuck off. That's awesome. Yeah. Like that's that's how you want this to be. Well, you're a team. No question. So you're and you're either a team or you're not. And you're pulling in the same direction.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

You know, not only are you guys together, but you guys are like championship because you're that good. And I think San Antonio is like championship because we're that good. And all coaching props to Dagnold. Dagnold's a mate, coach of the year. Should be the coach of the year. Um, Johnson, or uh is it Mitch Mitch Johnson? Head coach of the Spurs, sorry. Oh forget his blanking on his name. Uh there's a Johnson that plays for them too. Um but um it's it's interesting because it's interesting. Should be coach of the year. You say that.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah, Mitch Johnson, I got there, I was right. Because you run into a situation where, you know, two, uh just at the beginning of the week, you know, Jamal was interviewed uh after a game. And you know, Denver had two really impressive wins. You know, and last night against LA, yeah, like I was playing a gig, so I had to had to catch up the highlights. Yeah, it was a little bit of a choke job, but Denver had it. They kind of choked it away, but it it didn't feel exactly like a choke uh that they have experienced recently in in in previous games. Um, I'm borrowing some terminology from my buddies Chris and Nick here. Uh Nick who was taking photos of the Kent run throughout the playoffs. Really tall guy was making fun of him on the 10 minutes broadcast. I was like, how does it feel to cross your legs like that on court? Does it hurt? Sorry, Nick, but yeah, like they just ran into a situation where Luca just made a shot, and that was and that was it. It didn't feel like a, oh my god, this guy is falling. And Jamal previously in an interview recently, he said, you know, we've just been going through some we've just been going through some stuff. Some internal stuff. We're fine. We're fine. And I think if you're a Nuggets fan, that gives you a sigh of relief. You're probably like, thank God. Um the team seems like they're on the same page now, which I I would say maybe I would say their biggest liability now moving forward in the playoffs, is their coach. Dender? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

Um I I wouldn't I wouldn't go that far. I I like Adelman. Really? No, I I think well, I think that well This is my version of a hot take. Well, and I don't have I don't have privy to the practices. I don't have privy to and if just for the record, there are very few practices in the NBA. This is I think this is the problem, one of the problems we have in the NBA is there's not enough practice time. And a lot of this the days off, they need days off, right? Or they want to take days off.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

They're working harder than they were in the 90s. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04 28:43

That's there's no chance. Um those were those were our the you know the practice the the views on practice in general in basketball have gotten smaller and meaning like there's we know now that a three-hour practice is past the point of it's well past the point of diminishing returns.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:01

Right? And so a 45-minute practice or a 90-minute practice or an hour that max, and if it's a training session, it's 30 minutes. Don't don't do any more than that because you're if you're doing it right, you should be done at 30 minutes. Anyway, that is to say, I don't know anything about their practices and how they run things, but what I would say is that I like Adelman. I think Jokic still likes Adelman. I think they they do a pretty good job of holding it all together through all their injuries, and a lot of that is coaching, a lot of that is, you know, giving um Watson, you know, um space to play and be who he is and be, you know, now he's probably gonna get traded or he's gonna get, you know, he's valuable.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

What I see as the issue, and this is technical, not technical, but this is more of a player thing, is defensively they're just not very good. And and I what I mean by that is they they can guard, they will guard, their concepts I'm sure are solid, just like everybody else's concepts in the NBA. But there's a couple guys that are on the floor that have liabilities, especially at the rim. And I, you know, give him the MVP if you want, because he does lead a lot of these categories, and Denver does score more points than it. I'm looking at the points right now. They're they're lead literally leading the league in scoring. But Jokic is not the greatest player defensively in a pick and roll or at the rim. And then so you're not even like there the rotations, now this may be coaching, so they they oftentimes you'll watch if you want to isolate him where he would normally go rotate on a player, they have somebody else do it. Yeah. And that's a strategy, that's not an accident.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Well, there was uh their most recent game against OKC where OKC was missing uh Chet, IHart, and Williams, and someone else. I mean OKC had no size in that game. And they still paddled Thunder pretty well, and I was watching Jokic get out rebounded by a bunch of guards. That and and and to your point here, you know, I have my own opinions on Denver Sports Radio personalities. You know, I think a lot of them are pictures full of hot takes and hot air, and they just they the way they say certain things, I'm like, how why? Why I think a lot of us they don't watch the games.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

Right, yeah, because Or they'll watch one game and make a make a oh, here we go. That's it for the week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

However, I will give credit where it's due because there is one personality that I find that has a lot of really good things to say sometimes. And um Cecil Lamy recently on ESPN radio, he made a comment that I think is very fair. So if you're gonna give Jokic to the accolades that you want to give him, give him MVP and say, like, you know, he's he's great, he's leaning all these categories. One way that the the way that Cecil painted it was he has been lazy on defense all year. All year. And and hear me out here, yeah. Because you can call it lazy, you can call it a concept, you can you can call it whatever, but some of the effort, like you just watch certain games and there's games where he's just not there defensively.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

And that will permeate through a team. Yeah. I I don't the the word laziness may or may not, but I don't think it's that. I think it's um I think it's a limitation to his physical abilities. He's not an elite athlete, right? He's not fast, he can't jump. Right. He's he he covers ground because he's seven and change and he's big. So he is he's more of a years ago when when teams would play against Denver, even now, you'll always see at the fourth quarter or the end of the game, they want to put Jokic in the screen and roll defensively.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

And so what'll happen is they'll they'll pre-switch or they'll somehow get Gordon involved instead.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:56

If instead of Jokic to kind of save him, and and it's sort of and it reminds me, and it's a problem. I mean, it it is a it is a problem, it is a liability, and it's one it reminds me of this quote or this it was just Kawhi Leonard's quote, and it was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Did he laugh after he said it or not? No, no, no. It wasn't good.

SPEAKER_04 33:14

It was he was basically like some guy was on the court and they were supposed to switch everything. Yeah. And the coach said to Kawhi or something like, Everybody except this guy, switch. And Kawhi's like, we're supposed to switch everything. And he's like, Yeah, but that can't that guy is not, we don't want him switching. Right. He goes, well then get him the fuck off the court. Right, absolutely. Like get him out of here then. Or something like that. He was like, basically, if you can't do what it is you want us to do, then get the fuck out. And I get it. Look, I agree with that because however, you have to have him on the floor. Right. Jokic has to stay on the floor.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Jokic has to stay on the floor. Can't take him off. But when I watch a game and watch Jokic get out rebounded by SGA.

SPEAKER_04 33:53

So it here's one thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

It's an effort problem, no question.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

I here's the one thing about rebounding. It's, and people come at me, I love this. Please do. It's irrelevant until the fourth quarter.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, this was in the fourth quarter. Completely irrelevant.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

So and it's really only I mean, it rebounding is not something you could work on rebounding all day long. You could find any rebounding team in the country and be like, oh, they're so good at rebounding. No, they're they're fortunate at rebounding. And I don't want to throw it up just to that. But it is, there is some effort that you have to go get a basketball.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

That's right there. Come on.

SPEAKER_04 34:22

You have to go get it. I get that part. And so a lot of that is, I I think, again, Jokic is so valuable and he does so much for Denver. If again, you take Den you take Jokic off of Denver, I don't know if they make the playoffs.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

No, probably not.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

Right now they're, you know, they're injured. I this is a weird year for them, so it's not a normal year, but a year where they fully the year they won even. You take him off, no chance. No, they're toast. They're they're fifth.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

I you know, one one thing that I've noticed, you know, and we can start venturing into the other topics we have planned for today, including you know kind of playoff pushes and whatnot, but one thing I've definitely noticed is Jokic may be their most most important play, but AG is their emotion. Like, yeah, he's he's he's carrying like they just have a different vibe when he's around.

SPEAKER_04 35:13

For sure. He he is he's a he's a guy that that cleans up messes. Meaning uh metaphorical messes of he's big, athletic, can shoot, um, you don't have to worry about him. He's he's he's gonna give you full effort. He's not a guy that he fixes a lot of problems. Yeah. And he is, once Denver is fully healthy again, no one's gonna want to play him. We were talking about with with coach and another guy the other day at dinner. You were scared of a few teams. Yeah. And a healthy Denver team, you're you're scared of. You are as a playoff team, you're like, unless you're San Antonio or Oklahoma City, where you're like, we're not scared of anybody, but you are you have to pay attention to Denver. You can't just like overlook Denver, you know, when once they're going, like they're not an easy out. They are going to be a very difficult seven-game out in the the way they're now. Like the guys that are playing right now, I think they're a difficult seven-game out because Jokic will always be pretty good. And in the playoffs, there's more rest, there's more time to figure it out. It's just different. Just you know, I always talk about just get in the tournament.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:15

You imagine Denver as an eight seed? Amazing. Like it's like Oklahoma City, Denver, round one, fuck yes, let's go. Yeah, let's do it. How fun would that be? And and you couldn't say, oh, they're you know, Oklahoma City's favored. No, they're not. It's it's a pick'em.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

No, that's a that's a pick'em because you know, yeah, that's a seven-game series, too, no question. And um every time AG has a great game, I I always joke with my my friends. I'm like, time to get those sacks underwear on, boys. Like, you know, let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 36:46

Uh and this again, we I want to I don't want to make this a Denver Denver Nuggets podcast, but no, but they're good, so we we end up talking about it. Yeah, we'll we'll put have to put them in there.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

We gave San Antonio their flowers last year, so we did.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

Um and soon we gotta do Oklahoma City flowers.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

But it's yeah, but they're so ugly. Oh my wife thinks they're all ugly, man.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

I think they're beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Well, not in the face. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

Well, but I I think the way that they play is beautiful. I think that they I I I I love how they play.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

That's great.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Keep the wide view on them so that my wife doesn't have to see Chet's face because she's like, one of these days, one of these days we'll sit and watch as a as a team and I'll show you how good they are at finding so the one thing Oklahoma City We'll broadcast that. We'll we'll stream that. Oklahoma City doesn't take bad shots. No, they don't. They find it, they find the right play. So Coach Carl would always always used to say the basketball will find intelligent play. Yep. Right? So, and Shay, for as good as he is, and he's a bad dude, he will make the right play when he can. Now, if it's end of the clock and there's a shot that has to go up, it's usually gonna he's not passing it and he and he gets it because he's the MVP. But he will, for the most part, he'll make the right play, and it's beautiful to watch. They they just don't take bad shots, which is why they score more than others and why they're why their differential is better, their defense is better, their you know their their personnel is better, like they just they just get it. They they're they're guys that come off the bench, like they're you know, um oh gosh, the um I'm blanking now on the former Lakers now, who's their guy with the headband? Caruso? I get love Caruso. I'm always blanking on names. But Caruso is so good at leading the second team or second unit and what they do, and he is he's their asshole. And they have a bunch of assholes. Totally, yeah. And we keep in mind there's a lot of assholes on that team, but he is definitely one of them. Oh, he's he is he's their asshole.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Um got a little bit of a wind picking up.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Uh maybe that's the HVAC. I thought there's I thought something was going on outside. No, I dang.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

You know, so as as we push into you know, playoff pushes, where you see things landing. Um how's the shakeout for you now?

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Well, uh I have thankfully I have it in front of me. So Oklahoma City and San Antonio are one and two, and seven games behind them is the Lakers. Yep. And then Rockets, Timberwolves, Nuggets, Suns, Clippers. What I will do that I I don't know if I have an apology to, but I will walk back some of the things I said about Minnesota. They have been playing so much better as of late. Yeah. And uh I think they got beat today. I think they were playing Oklahoma City, and I want to say Oklahoma City pulled that out. I'm not sure of the the result on that one. But um Minnesota's another team where you're like, they're a wild card. They're really good, they're playing well, they've got a superstar, they've got a good coach, they have great backups, they have all the things you need, and they they defend pretty well.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

If they get it hot, they'll kill you too. No question.

SPEAKER_04 39:52

They're heavy jump shots, they're you know, you know, Ant Ant Anthony Edwards is one of the best catch-and-shoot jump shooters in the league. I think he is the best or was at one point. I'm worried about them, like I'm worried about playing them. So the way it I don't know, I'm not looking at the records, but Portland right now is a play-in team, Golden State's a play-in team, Clippers are a play-in team, Suns are a play-in team. So six through ten, that's, or seven through ten. So Phoenix, Clippers, Warriors, Blazers in the West. I'm not worried about the Blazers. I do think the Clippers will end up being the seventh seed, and I think Phoenix and Golden State will play for the eighth seed, and I think it's Phoenix.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Phoenix, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:32

Which bums me out because I love watching Golden State play, and I hate to see Steph Curry miss the playoffs. But he's been injured, not playing. It'll be a Lakers next year. I would hate that. Um that'd be the worst thing for them. On the eastern side, it's for me, it's literally a four-team. Okay. It's it's a four-team game. Uh, Detroit, New York, Boston, and Cleveland. Boston and Cleveland, yeah. And there's there's a drop-off after those four, the three-game drop-off on Orlando's next. And Orlando's had stretches where they've been really bad. There's rumors that you know their head coach will be the first one gone in the offseason. Like, I hate that because Jamal, I love Jamal. Former Nugget assistant, Jamal Mosley. Yeah, yeah. Um I think he's a great coach. I think he's he does a good job of communicating, and they played the right way. When he first got there, they blew up and they were, you know, they were the talk of you know the Eastern Conference. But yeah, I I would love to go through each team and where I think they're gonna land and all that. But again, I think the East is two teams and four teams max, right? So I think the East is is Detroit and Boston. Sorry, Knicks fans. Uh, but I think Dude, you are breaking their hearts. I love they're not that good. They're good. They're they're they're not good enough. Uh they haven't been. I do think Boston is just getting good at the right time and playing. I think we would punch you right now. I would love that. And so would Stephen A. Smith. Um, yeah, but we don't care about Stephen A. Smith. Cleveland's roster is really good. Donovan Mitchell is playing at it, and he's off the chart good right now. Yeah. And they are a wild card. So if I, you know, Coach Carl always used to talk about well, what's the wild card tonight? Who's gonna who's gonna do something we don't expect to do? I think Cleveland is the wild card, can catch fire in the playoffs or a right matchup or the right thing, and and and come out of there and push for that for the Eastern Conference final. But I do think it's it's a it's Detroit and it's Boston. Now I know that's chalk, but chalk is there for a reason. Yeah, it's there. Because they're they're winning. Yeah. Um yeah, I I I don't know. I I still think that the West is gonna win the championship. Yeah. I do think Well, there's more teams to pick from that could do it in the world. True, true, but I I do think San Antonio, I would not be stunned. This is not a prediction, but I I would not be stunned if San Antonio gets to the finals. Yeah, I can see that. The finals.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

And I made a special attempt to watch them more after our last episode because you know, we we talked about them, we give them their flowers, you know, we've we've talked about how fun they are to watch all year, but the more I kept coming back to it, the more I was like, yeah, I think they I think if OKC is gonna have a really hard time with anyone, it will be San Antonio. And San Antonio's made it a point to let them know we're not afraid of you, and we will come and take it from the game.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

I I forget what I said last time about Wembenyama. And maybe we did do this or didn't, I don't care. If I did it, um it needs to be said again. He is the most how do I word this, the largest differentiator in the game. Yes. Right now. There's no one else that impacts the the game the way he does. Now I don't know if it shows up statistically, but he affects in a positive way for San Antonio every single play. Everything. Uh we did talk about it. I remember him coming off talking about the curl play that he came off of, and he caught it off a off a you know angle in the corner and one dribble didn't not he didn't even dribble it. I think he got to the rim without a dribble. Yeah because you yeah I I remember you saying this because you were like well it maybe it could have been in trouble maybe um and we are going to talk about rules next week or next week it's not like Derek Queen uh against CSU in March Madness travel that was a traveling It's breaking my heart I know breaking my heart because um give me something but San Antonio with Wemby no one I no one can sit there on any TV show radio show any any influencer anybody with an opinion anywhere can say no no way on San Antonio because you you are again I'll just say you don't watch the games then you're just assuming San Antonio is not good enough because it's the first time they're gonna be this good and they have taken a giant list with OKC too like people are like oh yeah OKC they're just the best and it's like well I've watched San Antonio punch them in the mouth four times this year. And doing it doing it over seven games is is going to be even more fun to watch. Like you we get seven games of San Antonio Oklahoma City that's the best thing in the world.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

You're writing off everybody really early fans who tune in are going to be really upset.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

Wolves fans you just give them their flowers and now you're taking them away again it's like tell me you the point being is no one could say no way Oklahoma City does it again or no way San Antonio does it there's you can't you can't back that up with data. And you shouldn't feel good about San Antonio you can back up Lakers not doing it, Houston not doing it, Minnesota not doing it, Denver not doing it. You could back up that and go well injuries or you know when LeBron's on the floor with Luca and Austin Reeves, they're just not as good even though LeBron's had a couple good games lately. You know you you have there's holes in the other arguments. There are no holes in the arguments for San Antonio and for Oklahoma City. There are none there's holes in Detroit's argument there's holes in New York's there's holes in Boston's there's there's holes all over the place except for those two teams and the only there's no holes they might end up having to play each other to get that's it and that's the only hole for that's too bad.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

And that's that's a shame it's a shame that you can't switch conferences in the finals and we will represent the East I think I think the conferences especially the like the divisions are worthless.

SPEAKER_04 46:15

Oh yeah we did this in the 70s because of airplanes yeah like now you know now we're talking about putting NBA Europe or putting a team in Mexico City or putting a team they used to talk about putting a team in London. Yeah at what point aren't aren't there teams playing in Germany next year for probably they've been they've been going abroad a lot which is great I love that but my point is I would love to see their once the playoffs are all in all 16 teams are in re-racket. I don't want to do East West. I love that just play one through one through 16 play tournament based on record based on record. Yep and you would get I think it'd be more fun. You get better ball yeah I think well I just it just it's ridiculous to me that you know we would have these now they'd have to change the regular season schedule because as it stands now Western conference teams play each other four times and then east twice. Play everybody the same amount of times what is it everybody maybe three games on everybody if that works out the math I have no idea. Well that's what give or take a few games here and there.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

But not that many sports should take a lesson from Major League Baseball but Major League Baseball made it so that you play your divisional teams less. And so like those games mean more now but you play everybody else a healthy a healthier amount of times. And so yeah that man that's fascinating I would love to see that. That's on our what if episode coming in the future where we revisit trades that should have happened and should not have happened.

SPEAKER_04 47:32

That's on the episode of if I were commissioner this is what I would do. You definitely would have not vetoed the Chris Paul trade I would know would love to see Chris Paul in LA you kidding me in 2006 whatever it was seven eight when Chris Paul was a bad motherfucker. Like he is the best point guard in the league. And now the point guards this is for the next episode too the point guard is going away yep we're losing the point guard been gone for a while sorry and I'm a that's me I I I'm I have a bias I have a point guard bias. But now I'm like no let the big guy let the big guy handle it I want some yeah well thanks for tuning in everyone catch you next time this episode is brought to you by Field Day Sporting Co.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

Have a field day