Reframe public speaking and make it your superpower with Amy Arbogast

In this episode of The Underlayer, David Young sits down with public speaking coach Amy Arbogast to get underneath one of the most common fears in professional life and figure out what's actually driving it.

We explore a powerful question:
  What if the WAY you've been thinking about public speaking is the very thing making it harder?

Amy shares why reframing the goal from performance to connection changes everything: your delivery, your structure, your nervous system, and your relationship with the room.

Together, we talk about early experiences that shape how we communicate, why modern life gives us fewer chances to practice out loud, and what it actually means to build confidence that holds up under pressure.

This episode is a reminder that speech anxiety isn't your enemy.
 It's a signal, and you can learn to work with it instead of against it.

Topics We Cover:

• Why public speaking feels so vulnerable (and why that's actually rational)
• Reframing speaking as connection, not performance
• How preparation builds confidence without becoming memorization
• What texting culture and phone anxiety are doing to communication skills
• Turning nervousness into a sign you care, not a reason to stop

-- What conversation, presentation, or room have you been avoiding because you're waiting to feel ready?
 Say the thing out loud this week, even imperfectly.

If this episode helped, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so more people can find The Underlayer.

Amy's website: https://www.sparkspeakroc.com/

Amy's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyarbogast/

The Underlayer YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/@the_under_layer

The Underlayer Podcast Website: https://www.theunderlayerpodcast.com/

David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/

Transcript

Fear, Jokes, And Vulnerability

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Are you nervous about speaking in public? Do you actually enjoy getting up in front of a group? What about leading a team meeting? I know I didn't for the longest time. And that's what this episode of The Underlayer is about. This is a show where we go beneath the surface to find out what's really driving behavior. I'm David Young, your host. I work with coaches and consultants to help their businesses run leaner, earn more, and take less of their time. And today I'm joined by Amy Arbogast, a public speaking coach. She leads workshops for businesses and professional organizations. And she also offers coaching sessions to individuals who want to become clearer, more confident communicators. We're going to talk about reframing public speaking from performance to connection, how to manage speech anxiety, and what it takes to actually build confidence as a speaker. Amy, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Absolutely. I think is the quote. So uh seems uh the people out there are probably like, oh my God, talking in public, please make it stop.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I love, I love starting with that quote. I love talking about that. Do you want to start there?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, that's yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yeah, so this is a thing that that comes up, but it's it's kind of unclear whether it's real or like apocryphal at this point. But supposedly that whatever they they pull people as to their greatest fears, public speaking beats out sharks, spiders, death itself. And of course, that led Jerry Seinfeld to make his famous joke that this means at a funeral, more people would rather be in the casket than delivering the eulogy. Um, which I think like it is legitimately funny that we fear public speaking more than sharks. Like, come on, guys. Um, I would much rather give a speech than face a shark. Um so I like to sort of start from that place of like, it is funny to think about how nervous we get about public speaking. But then I like to also dig deeper and say, yes, these jokes are funny. But I think of all the things humans are afraid of, public speaking is actually one of our more rational fears. Because think about what public speaking requires. It requires you to be vulnerable, it requires you to take risks. When you write something like an email or an essay, you can go back and delete something, you can edit it, you can read it a bunch of times before you send it to someone. But with a speech, no matter how much you prepare, ultimately it's it's you presenting that live. And of course, you can forget something, you can stumble, your mouth can make an embarrassing noise. Like all of these things can and do happen all the time. So I think it's actually like a very reasonable fear to be afraid of public speaking.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think for me, and maybe it's changed now in the school system, but it wasn't something that I ever did. And I think if we had if you'd normalize it earlier on, like because kids don't obviously have nearly as much fear. And so I think if I'd been, you know, first, second, third, fourth grade, like very young school age, and I was having to get out and give presentations, even if they were short presentations, I think it would have been more normalized. I never had to do that. And again, I hopefully they've changed that now and they're they're getting kids up. I went all the way, well, gosh, I I think I might have been in high school before I had to give, and it was like a book report.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

So I mean, yeah, I think my first speaking like memory is middle school, but I have two kids in elementary school right now, and I can tell you like they're not doing it. And but my my older kids in theater, and you're right that when they're young, that anxiety is just not naturally there. Like he was just in a production of newsies and he did track this fall. And I was checking in with him, because you know, public speaking coach. So I was checking in with him, like, how are you feeling? Going on stage. And he was like, Yeah, I'm ready, I'm excited. And I, you know, asked, like, are you a little bit nervous? And he was like, What are you talking about? Like, what why would I be nervous? Like it had never even occurred to him. So then I'm like, shut up, Amy, like, don't give him anything to be nervous about, you know. But he was having an issue with uh an assignment in class where he had a lot of ideas, but when it came time to write them down, he would get very impatient. And so his ideas were never as fully fleshed out as they were when he spoke about them to his teacher. And so I suggested, I was like, would you be open to turning this assignment into a presentation? Like maybe the kids could actually orally represent their ideas. And, you know, at the time she said she liked it. I don't know if it ever went anywhere, but like, why aren't we doing more of that in school? Of course they need to learn to write, but can't they also learn to communicate their ideas in other ways?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Well, and especially I have a teenager and then a soon-to-be teenager, and we've really worked with them to try to work on like even just greeting adults, uh, a family member they haven't seen in a while, answering questions with more than one word, uh, ordering at restaurants and like you really using their voice because all mostly all they do is text and message. Um and so they lose the ability. Like when I was growing up, that wasn't an option. Like I had to speak, I had to answer the phone, I had to call, I had to call on the phone, right? And I had to ask parents

Kids, Phones, And Missing Practice

SPEAKER_00 5:10

like is so-and-so available to play? Like they don't have to, they don't even have to do stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Um I think the phone thing's big. And I was actually just talking to someone else about this in a workshop I was running. I think a big difference is the absence of landlines. Like when we were growing up, everyone had a landline phone. It's funny to think that our phone numbers were like published publicly in a book. Like, isn't it just like wild to think about? But you know, you you talked on the phone all the time. When the phone rang, it was this positive association of like, maybe it's for me, maybe it's grandma, maybe it's my friend from school. Like it was always this exciting moment of like who's on the phone. And now we're raising this generation of kids. And I I think many Gen Z umults are also in this camp where they grew up without a landline. And so to them, a phone is text-based, and there is real fear around talking on the phone because they've never been able to cultivate this positive association with it. It's never been like good news to them. It's only ever been like official stuff and bad news. And I think that's why I know with my Gen Z students at the University of Rochester, like they're really afraid of talking on the phone. Um, and so we're trying as much as possible to like fix this with our kids. We're looking into getting this, uh, it's like a new pseudo landline that works through the internet called the Tin Can Phone. But like we want our kids to be excited to talk on the phone and not just text.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Yeah, it's it's it is interesting. Uh my oldest was trying to get his first summer job about a month ago, and we were my wife and I were rehearsing just kind of basic interview questions with them of what I think it was like at a at a grocery store. Just simple stuff that they might ask. And he was really struggling, and he was just giving like these very terse short answers, and we were like, you have to give some detail, you have to expand on your thoughts. You can't just say I'm available on Wednesdays at seven. Like, what other days? There are six other days of the week, so like I'm available on these days at this time. The reason is because whatever, or like what experience do you have? And then there's like he just he just couldn't do it. And so like I was giving like she would my wife would ask him a question, he would either not answer it or just you know, kind of mumble his way, and then I would give like the answer. And I was like, I think I need to go and like interview for you. Um and he kind of chuckled, but I was like, and I know it's it's easier for me because I I know how to do it, but you have to practice and you have to think about the situation, and you have to give, and it doesn't have to be every detail ever, but yeah, this person doesn't, this person asking doesn't know who you are, that you're a stranger to them, so you have to give them some information to go on. And if you just go in and give like one and two-word answers, they're not gonna be impressed and they're gonna hire someone else. They've got hundreds of kids that want these jobs. Um, but again, I think it's just it's just lack of practice. And that's probably goes back to what you do when you work with people is that if you do have to give like a speech, let's say in front of a in a in a like a hotel ballroom in front of 150 people and you've never done that before, well, that seems very intimidating and overwhelming because it's very hard to like you can't just rep that. You can't just like go in your basement and like do it, right? So like how do you how do you get practice being comfortable in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

And I find that it's almost exactly a 50-50 split. I would say it's 60-40. Um, 60% of my clients come to me and say, I'm incredibly comfortable in a one-on-one conversation, like an interview, like a podcast like this. It's when I get up in front of a crowd that I get really nervous. But the other 40% say to me, put me on a stage in front of hundreds of people. I can do that any day of the week. It's the one-on-one stuff that's really intimidating to me.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

So it's it's not a 50-50 split. More people are afraid of talking to the larger crowds, but you would be surprised by how many um feel the reverse and are much more intimidated by that one-on-one interview setting. Um, and I help clients with all of it. I help them with the small interpersonal networking, client conversations, interviewing, but I also help with the big talks. And it is hard. It's hard to replicate, you know, I'm in my office where I work with clients, and it is hard to replicate an audience of hundreds of people. So some of my tricks for that include putting post-its on the wall of like smiley faces, and they have to look between the post-its to practice looking out at the audience. There are also like you can find videos on YouTube of like audiences, and there's also AI tools, but if I can do it for less energy, I'm gonna try to do that. Um, and and they can sort of get that feeling of being in front of the audience. But obviously, none of that mimics the real in-person audience. So the best work I can do with them is to just help them feel really prepared and to also like really institute those mindset shifts, um, which you hinted at at the beginning here of connection over performance being my biggest one.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah, we could talk more about that because I when we talked uh initially before we uh booked this, we you you had said that about reframing it to more connection focused. So, yeah, give a little bit more insight into like what you mean by that. Because I had not heard that before.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, I think when we think about public speaking, we think about performance. We think about that example you just gave of standing on a stage or in a ballroom addressing hundreds of people. And we're very self-focused. I am the speaker, I must perform. Everyone's judging me. And it's very much focused on like what we are saying, how we are feeling. And I find that, you know, this emphasis on performance, which I also grew up with. I cut my teeth doing speech team in high school. If anyone out there did speech team, I'm an original oratory girly, which means I wrote and performed my own speeches. Uh, and every single round would start with the question, judge is ready. Judge is ready? And the judges would say yes, and then you'd get started. And so, like my very first like exposure to public speaking was like, are you ready to be judged and go? So that was really something like that was very built deeply into me and that I had to sort of unlearn. But I think when we focus on public speaking as performance, it leads to two things. It leads to a higher degree of anxiety because you feel like you're literally there to be judged. It's a test, right? And everyone's like assessing and evaluating you. But it also leads to slimy speaking because you just focus on it as like I am a character doing a performance. You're not focused on what you're authentically saying. And so as I started to do more with public speaking, which I did, you know, in college, I worked as a speaking tutor. I went to University of Rochester for graduate school, actually have my PhD in history, fun fact. Um, and while I was working on that, I started the public speaking tutoring center at U of R. And there, you know, working closely with students and training these tutors, I started to really rethink the whole purpose of public speaking. And I found that like my joy in speaking didn't come from thinking of it as a performance. It came from using it to build connection and recognizing that public speaking had become this tool for me to feel understood, to feel like I understand other people, which, as someone who openly has undiagnosed ADHD has not always been the easiest thing for me to feel like people really understand where I'm coming from and that I understand what they mean when they say it. And public speaking has been this tool that has helped me feel like I'm a part of something, that I'm a piece of a community. And when I recognize this, I was like, this is how we need to be teaching it. Like this is how we need to think of it. And so much changed. When you start focusing on public speaking as connection, that anxiety naturally dissipates. Because you start to ask yourself,

Practice That Prepares You To Pivot

SPEAKER_01 13:20

not if the audience is judging you, but like, what am I giving the audience? What am I telling them? What am I teaching them? What are they going to walk away with? How am I helping them in their lives through this presentation? And when we can think of a speech more as a conversation with the audience, where we're sharing, but we're also receiving, um, that that anxiety naturally dissipates because we're just focused on something different. And the other really big piece of this that I think might even be more significant than the nerve settling is you start to make your choices as a speaker with a new sense of purpose. So when you think of public speaking as performance and as something where you're being judged, everything has to follow a rule book, right? Like, well, I need to have a hook because the book says a speech needs a good introduction. I need to have three points because three's the magical number. I need to have evidence. I have to do this with my hands because that's what I saw the newscaster do on TV. And when you start to think about public speaking as connection, all of these choices become far more purpose-driven and intuitive. So it's not, I need an intro because the book says I need one. It's I need an introduction because my audience doesn't know me yet. And I need to ease them in. I need to build trust with them. I need to provide context in order for them to understand my argument. And yeah, maybe I need to include something like a hook to wake them up if it's been a long day. But now suddenly I'm making those choices with intention. I need to use hand gestures, not because that's what a good speaker does, but because they, you know, help people follow the pace of my words. Your hands naturally move at the pace at which you speak. They help to illustrate the points that I'm making. They help to hold attention and they help me to fully embody the words that I'm speaking when I'm connecting with people. So for me, this is a huge game changer. And it has been for my clients too. You know, when they come in and they're nervous about a speech, we don't even like talk about that at first. We get into this mindset of like, well, what are you sharing? How is it helping people? What kind of impact are you having? And once we start talking about those things, it's like their shoulders drop. And we can get them into a place of really like being present. And this is gonna sound crazy, but like enjoying the nerves. Let me explain what I mean by that. Um the tutors at the tutoring center that I started at U of R have this uh monthly lecture series where they each deliver like a 10 to 15 minute lecture on a communication topic that they care deeply about. And a few months ago, one of the students was preparing for her very first one of these lectures. And she's a student who, like, I had never seen nervous before. She loved this. This was her game. And right before she went to talk, she came up to me and she was like, I'm really feeling this one. Like, I'm feeling so nervous. And I just took her hands and I looked at her and I said, How few times in your life do you get to feel that feeling? That feeling of like, I'm about to do something dangerous. I'm about to jump out of the plane, like I'm about to put my heart on the line to share something with people. And it's such like a iconic, incredible piece of the human experience that now, like when I start to feel those nerves, I try to really cherish it. Like I try to like really, really feel it and think like this is the sign my body's telling me that I'm doing something important, that I'm experiencing like a really cool piece of what it means to be human.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great flip. And I think uh more people would benefit from thinking about that, and not even just in speaking, like in any kind of life, like taking a risk or doing something that you feel like scares you, then that typically is more you're closer to what you should be doing than farther away. And I think sometimes we flip that, like, oh well, if I'm scared to do it, maybe I shouldn't. And it's like actually, if you're scared to do it, you that probably means you should do it more, you should push harder.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Um, because again in some ways, like I want my children to have a healthy fear of not jumping off the tops of slides, which they weirdly love to do. Um but I see what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah, there's a safety issue for sure. Um, but like thinking about like reaching out to someone, uh whether it's for uh your business or just to connect, and sometimes we're like, oh, like I'm not gonna do that. I won't want to bother them. I haven't talked to them in a while, they're probably busy. It's like stuff like that, and it's like just do it, right? I mean, if they ignore it, they ignore it. But like there's no but it sometimes makes us nervous. We're like, well, I don't know, I'll do it next week or I'll do it next month, or I'll do it when I have something more important to say, or whatever. We make all these excuses and then we end up not doing it. Um things like that. I think. Yeah. And then obviously when you get into like speaking and talking. Um but you're right. I mean, it's it's rare for us to feel throughout most of our daily, like uh day in and day out. It's you don't very it's very I don't think it's common to just feel like that adrenaline and nervous and your heart starts kind of racing like it's special. It doesn't happen very often.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Sometimes I think that I am living my life like a bingo card. And this is something I've talked about with other people. Like, even when I'm I'm going through something like heartbreaking and tragic, and I'm overwhelmed with sadness, or I'm so anxious, I'm like dissociating, like I'm having these super extreme experiences. There's this voice in my head that's like, ooh, she's sad today. Like, we haven't felt sad in a while. Like, oh, that's an interesting one. There's just this little like bingo goblin in my brain that's like checking things off. Um, and it's it's hard because sometimes I feel like I can't even fully sink into the feelings because I'm so excited to be feeling them. Um, but especially for speech anxiety and for those things that make us uncomfortable to really push ourselves to live in that discomfort, to actually not just try to get through it or push through it or hustle, but to say, like, this is uncomfortable and I will dwell here. I will allow this to be part of my story.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, for sure. I did uh six minutes of stand up about two years ago, and it was that was way out of the comfort zone for me. I'd been thinking about doing it for a long time, but then I actually, you know, booked it and you know, had the date and and whatnot. And I was surprisingly not nervous. And I think the main reason was A, I really wanted to do it, but B, like I practiced a lot. Like I really I didn't wing it. Um and I'd gone over it so much that like I knew kind of exactly what I was gonna say and the pauses, and obviously you don't quite know how the audience will react, but um, and six minutes is not a long period of time. Obviously, I wasn't

Connection Over Performance

SPEAKER_00 20:10

like a 45 minute set. But um when I tell people that I did it, that's all usually like their first thing, like, oh my god, I could never do that, or were you so nervous or whatever? And I was like, actually, like not really. I just it was kind of fun.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

And I think practicing is huge, like you just highlighted. So often um we tell ourselves, like, I'm just a procrastinator. I do that naturally. I, you know, it's just a thing I do. Procrastination is a symptom of anxiety. It's your brain saying, like, maybe I'll be dead by then. Like, I why bother practicing? Because maybe I'll never have to do it. That's a phrase, actually, my husband and I say all the time, and we have to stop because our kids are now like starting to repeat it. But if there's something we don't want to do, like laundry and we put it off, we just always say, like, maybe I'll be dead by then. And like it's not, it's very macabre, but to us, it's like so innocuous. And I always have to remember like other people aren't hearing it that way. Um, but I think that's what our brains are doing to us, and it's a trap. We have to practice. And I tell people, practicing isn't just about learning your bullet points or or learning what word follows what word, and that's the wrong way to practice. Practicing is really just getting to know your material and stepping into it so that when you stand up to speak, even if anything goes wrong, you end up with five minutes less time, the projector doesn't work. You know your stuff so well that you can say something.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was I had like a dummy microphone and I was like, I built like a little mini stage like in my life. Oh, I love that. I would get on that with the microphone, and I would like try to envision. I knew it wasn't going to be a ton of people. I was, you know, a small club downtown Indy. So, but I tried to like envision it, it would be dark, spotlight. Like I tried to really get into that, and then kind of what you said, like I it wasn't so much about memorizing it, I didn't memorize like the the bits. But I once I I kind of work through several, pick the ones that I wanted, and then I do more storytelling anyway. I'm not like a joke, I don't like write jokes. I mostly just tell stories for my life. So I'm kind of familiar with the show anyway. But I wanted to say it, and you never know, like we're like the breaking points and stuff. But yeah, so by the time I got there, and I they drew numbers, I was like there was like 12 people. I think I was like number eight. Um yeah, like I don't I wasn't like my even my palms weren't sweaty, I wasn't nervous. Um but I think yeah, a lot of it just had to do with just yeah preparation. Like if I had tried to wing it, then I think I would have been really nervous and like, oh crap, I don't I don't actually know what I'm I don't this is wrong.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

And I think with like something like a stand-up set, it's the transitions that kill you. Like you know all your stories, but then how do you move from one to the next in a way that like builds a narrative and feels seamless? Like we've all seen comedians who have like one good bit, but then they're like talking about something totally different, and you're like, whoa, like how did we get there? And to me, like Mike Barbiglia is actually one of my public speaking icons because his sets are not just funny, which they are, but there's a whole narrative to them. Like when people ask me what my favorite speech is, like, yes, there's some historical ones, but of like contemporary stuff, it's his set, um, my girlfriend's boyfriend. I think it's one of the most beautiful hour-long speeches I've ever seen. The artistry that went into that, sorry, I nerd out about it, but like I think that with something like stand up, it the art is in the transitions.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

No, I you that that's true. I haven't seen his stuff. I do know who he is. I haven't seen his stuff in a while. He was on the Rich for Old podcast not that long ago, and it reminds me, I should go back, I should go back and listen to that. Um, but one of the bits I did is uh the movie Heat, uh the Al Pacino Robert De Niro movie Heat. It's it's uh it's a Michael Mann movie, it's older now, it's 95. Um, but if you like kind of crime and action, and then it's De Niro Pacino, which I think is one of the few movies they were ever in together, and then they have the scene in the diner, which is iconic. Anyway, I've seen that movie so many times, and it's it's a serious movie. I it almost is a comedy to me because like just the characters and the way that they do it, it's just funny. And so I tell my wife, I was like, I'm gonna make fun of Heat, uh specifically Al Pacino's character. And she was like, I don't she was like, I don't know if that's a good idea. She's like, I don't think people are gonna not enough people are gonna like know the movie, and like it's funny to you, but like if they haven't seen it or if they haven't seen it a bunch, and I was like, No, no, it'll be fine. And so when I that was my last bit, and so I asked, I said like his character's name, Bacino's character's name in the movie, and the place was like stone silent, like no one recognized it. And so I was like, Oh, my wife was right. I was like, my my wife told me not to do this bit uh because no one was gonna know what I was talking about. And then that actually worked.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

That became the bit. Yes, yeah, that was a good pivot.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Became like, ha ha ha, that's funny. And then I and then I I I still did it. But yeah, so it's that kind of stuff. But I don't think I would have been able to do that had I not practiced. If I'd been nervous and then gotten like just flatlined when I said that, it would have been like, oh, and then I either would have just stopped or I would have tried to go with something else that I hadn't practiced. Um anyway, so yeah, I think that does when you're relaxed, I think you're able to come up with more stuff like that that I had not rehearsed versus like when you when it's either just scripted where you're like, well, I have to stick, you know, to the script. Um I think that's where the connection part, what you talked about. I think the connection part helps with that because a performance, you're like, I think I'm more apt to memorize and just have to like, I'm just doing it. Whereas connecting, it's more like in the moment, in the flow, energy giving and receiving. And then I think it's easier to pivot from something you haven't necessarily worked on.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

I think it's also about accepting risk. Like it sounds like you were at this point where you were ready and you knew your material well enough that you were also accepting the risk to pivot. Like there wasn't this commitment to like stick word for word to the script. And that's something else I really recommend to people. For so long, we've been taught that speech anxiety is something we have to fight and battle and overcome. And this is this is probably like my biggest pet peeve when it comes to talking about speech anxiety, because your speech anxiety is a part of you. It's a voice that's deeply and fundamentally on your side. It's trying to protect you from embarrassment or um, you know, rejection, all of those scary things that could happen. And when I work with clients, we work on not overcoming speech anxiety or fighting it, but getting to know it and coming to peace with it and learning to say, you know, go, let's go through all the risks that could happen. Um someone could laugh at me, I could stumble, I could freeze and say, like, yeah, all of that can happen. I accept that that can happen. And I trust myself to recover when it does.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah. No, I mean it's a great, it's a great reframe. And I think too many of us, myself included, we can go through most of our lives and just kind of stay in that like fearful state, like not really putting ourselves out there. And it feels, you know, because our brains are trying to keep us, you know, that's its job, right? To keep kind of keep us safe and scan for threats. And so we'll do what is comfortable for us, what we know how to do. And if you're not you're not paying enough attention, you can kind of do that forever. And then you can get to the end and be like, what did I actually what did I do? And you're like, Oh, I didn't really do much. I didn't really take I didn't really take any risk. I would have liked to have tried X or I would like to have done this. Um, so you do have to kind of pick your spots, and I think that gets back to your if you're feeling the nerves or you're feeling some excitement or anxiety, then like that might be a sign that you're actually onto something and not something you should, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

I always say it's a green flag. Yeah, when someone tells me they're nervous, I say, awesome, that's exactly where you want to be. That's a sign that you're doing something important enough to be nervous about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yeah, if you didn't care, right? You if if there was no if you had no stake in the game whatsoever, then you wouldn't be nervous. You'd be like, it's irre it's irrelevant.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And that's also how your nerves can work for you. Because when you recognize your nerves as evidence of passion, I'm nervous because this matters to me. You recognize that you have a critical ingredient to a great speech. Like if I'm watching someone talk and they're not nervous at all because they don't care about their topic, snooze, right? Like that's the person that's like, okay, and today we're gonna talk about this. I'm too cool for school, blah, blah, blah. Um, show me the person who's so nervous they're sweating. Like that's

Cherish Nerves, Stop Fighting Anxiety

SPEAKER_01 28:40

the speech I want to watch. The person who cares so deeply about this that their voice is shaking. Like, I'm immediately leaning in. I'm immediately saying, like, all right, they have something to say. So, you know, passions, and passion's like impossible to think. You either have it or you don't. So you can talk yourself into it, which we all have to do sometimes, but like if you naturally have that passion for something that you're that level of nervous, like two thumbs up, you're halfway there.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Yeah. No, for sure. What when you work with individuals, do you have like a set program that you put them through, or do you kind of just base it on like their experience level and what they're actually like working on, or like how did you customize it? How do you how do you go about doing it?

SPEAKER_01 29:25

I have some any kind of like preset coaching. I have some like opening questions that I use with every speaker where I ask, you know, what are your goals? But also like, what kind of speaker would you like to be? And we start to really hone in on their style. Like, are you someone who naturally uses humor? Or if you told a joke, are people like checking your temperature and wondering if you're sick, you know? Um, like, is that something that comes naturally to you? How do you like to explain something? Do you jump to storytelling? Like you just said, you favor. Are you a data person? Like, what really gets you excited? What really animates you? And then maybe I ask for like some models of speakers that they really like. Sometimes we watch some clips together to just get a sense of what their overall goals are. But from there, it is completely choose your own adventure. And that to me is the joy. Like I have some clients who are constantly delivering formal talks. I have two clients who are scientists who are actively presenting at conference after conference. And so they come in with their talks. We plug their laptop into my TV, we click through their slides, and we're making sure that their talk makes sense, that it has a narrative, that the proportions are right, that they're delivering it effectively. And they're, you know, like I'm an idiot when it comes to science. Um, I regularly ask questions that my own kids are like, Are you serious? Like, you really don't know the answer to that. But in some ways, like, that's really my um strength in those moments that I can I can just honestly say, like, I've never heard this word before, I don't know what it is. Well your audience. And I always expect them to say, like, oh yeah, my audience will definitely know that term. But nearly every time they're like, oh no, that's a new one. My audience isn't gonna know it. Okay, let's slow down, let's define it, let's work in some other kind of explanation. So when I have clients who have specific talks coming up, we tend to focus on those talks. And we're building overall skills as we work on those talks. You know, they're still learning strategies to feel um more confident, to um build in more structure, more audience engagement, but within the context of that specific goal. I also have clients who don't have specific talks coming up, but who just want to get better at um communicating complicated concepts to clients, um speaking with empathy, uh having critical conversations at work, talking with leadership. So there, you know, we we try to reflect on real experiences that they're having. But if they don't have real experiences, we we just come up with examples and exercises to practice.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Gotcha. Do you have them record? Like you ever have them record themselves and then watch the recording back?

SPEAKER_01 32:12

I have not done that. Um, my business partner Maria and I have actually talked about that. And using like the first session to do a recording and then being able to check progress later, I guess it's just like never organically come up. So I need to start like intentionally building that into kind of my intake process. But I also find that like people clam up in front of a camera. I think that's no secret. And it's really important to me when working with a new client to build that level of trust. So I wonder if starting our first session with that would sort of start us off on a sour note. So maybe it's something that needs to come like a couple sessions in where we've built up a level of trust, but we're still early enough that they'll be able to see that progress later.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Yeah, I think there's a fine line there, but I do think there would be, it would be powerful if someone, you know, I don't know how long you how long your engagements are, but you know, say two months, eight sessions or something, and like they could kind of see like after the second session, here's what I looked and sounded like. And then at the end of the two months, like, here's what I looked and sounded like, and you would be like, oh wow, like that's a lot better. Uh eye contact, you know, tone of voice, confidence, like all these things are gonna like drastically improve.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

And sometimes like one of my clients uh runs a podcast. So that's very easy. We can look at old episodes and new episodes and see that distinction. But it's also like, in some ways, it's more valuable to me to hear them progressing and how they feel about public speaking. And that always has like a very significant change. I am heavily invested in making my clients into better speakers, but I am much, much, much more invested in getting them to a place where they feel good about their speaking, where they feel like it helps them build connection, it helps them feel heard because all of that makes them a better speaker too. You know, like these things go hand in hand. And I think my sort of mission in life is to help people find their voice and feel heard and feel connected, less so than like, wow, your hand gestures got a lot better. But but I also don't want to cheapen, like, I think that's still a critical part of it. It can't all just be about feelings. Like they, of course, need to be able to see and hear progress in themselves too. But I guess where my brain always goes to is like, how is it feeling now? And what are you getting out of it?

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Yeah, for sure. Um, as someone who grew up, like I was really shy. I was an only child. I hated speaking in school. I would sit in the back. I never wanted to be caught on. Um, they would call on people to read like a couple chapters from the textbook. I was always terrified I was gonna get caught on. Um I had to give a speech when I was in the ninth grade because I ran for student council president as a joke and I won, um, which is a long story that I won't tell now. But the end of that, as I had to give a speech at a words night in front of the my student, my classmates and some of their parents and stuff, it was terrible. I was supposed to be like a five-minute speech. I gave it like 45 seconds. I just sped I just sped read it. I didn't never looked up. I mean, it was awful. Um, and even like through high school and honestly, even college, like I just I don't know, it it made me nervous. And then my first, I won't say real job, but it was a job was selling I sold marketing advertising door to door for like five months, and that was like the kind of the first step to really getting me out of my shelf because I had to learn pretty quickly. Like I had to knock on someone's door and I had to give this like quick pitch.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

You had to connect, you had to connect.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

I did, yeah, and for like two weeks I was really bad at it, and then something like flipped after like the two-week mark, and I kind of like figured it out, and then I got pretty good at it, and I was even like training people like towards the end, which was really wild. Um, but like I that once I was able to like know that I could sell, and they were twenty dollars, wasn't a lot of money, but just getting a stranger to give me twenty dollars in exchange for this coupons basically. Um that really like did something, and then I went into sales and then that kind of went from there. Um but like now I and I would I would never have wanted to speak publicly or like record like

How Coaching Builds Skills And Trust

SPEAKER_00 36:15

for a long time. And now I would do it, like I would do it every I would do it all the time if I could get paid for it. Like it's it's all it's gone completely the other way.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Because it's become a source of connection, it's become a place where you feel like you can be your full self, you know, and like that's the magic. I I agree with you. It's like a high to me. Like I love, I love teaching, I love speaking because it's just it's where I feel like I gather my energy. Um, but I your story reminded me of my sort of origin story. Uh I said my first public speaking memory was in middle school, and it was in the science class. Maybe this is why I'm so bad at science because all I care about is the presentation, but um, we were put in pairs and we were given like a form of energy, and we had to basically look through the textbook, jot down notes on an index card, and then like present it to the class. A different way of getting us to like talk about the textbook, right? And like it tells you something about where and when I went to high school that my form of energy was coal. Uh, and I was with this girl, Sarah, who's very nice, and we were going through the textbook, we made our index card, we're like ready to go. And I was like, okay, so who's gonna say what part? Like, how are we gonna say this? And she completely froze and was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I can't, I can't say this in front of the class. Like, I can't do that. And so, you know, like seventh grade Amy is like, just picture them in their underwear, like you don't have anything to wear, like the classic like stuff you read online now. And it, of course, did nothing. It didn't help at all. And so I was kind of scrambling because like if my partner wouldn't give this speech, like I was in trouble, you know? Um, and so I grabbed a blank index card and I wrote on it in giant letters C dash O A dash L. And I looked at her and I said, Sarah, we're gonna go in front of a class. And if we forget everything we have to say, we're gonna tell the class that coal is spelled C O A L. And then we can sit down because we've done our job and we've taught them something about coal. And like obviously, my science teacher would not have appreciated that presentation, but it it did its job and it got Sarah to laugh and recognize that like the stakes of this seventh grade science presentation were non-existent. And she got up to speak and it went great. But what's funny about that is like I remember nothing about our presentation. I remember everything about how I coached Sarah. Like, that's where I felt connected. That's where I felt aligned and like this is the stuff I was meant to do. And I swear I've been like chasing that high ever since. Like that was the like light bulb moment for me. And like every speaking memory I have is also memory of coaching. And I still to this day, if I'm giving a big speech that's like I'm nervous about it, this is a big one. In the corner of my notes or my outline, I will write C O A L. And it's just the reminder to myself of like, you're gonna have something to say. Like you're always, you're gonna figure out something. There's always a way forward.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah, that's a great story and a great um memory. And it's interesting how that triggers um that you can go back to that exact state and really like remember it. And it's like core memory built in, but then also that like shaped, you know, so much of what you went on to do.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

And like not, it was never the plan. Like I, you know, I've never really done what I was supposed to do. Like in high school, I was the math kid. I got the I got a perfect math score on the SAT, actually.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

And then I went to college to study history.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Right?

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Like, why not? Um, and I was gonna teach high school history. That was the plan for all of college. And then my senior year, I was like, nope, screw that. I'm actually gonna go for my PhD. So then I go for my PhD, like throw all the other plans out. And then um I start teaching writing and public speaking, and I start the speaking center. So it's like now I have my PhD in history. Forget that. I'm gonna do this. And then I, you know, work as a professor. I I'm pretty good at it. I enjoy teaching, it's all going really well. I get promoted to associate professor, and I'm like, you know what I want to do? Leave and start my own business, actually. I think that's I think that's the move. So I don't know, like I've never done like logically on paper what I'm supposed to do, but I've always just sort of trusted that inner voice that um is a little whimsical and likes to pull me in different directions, but it's worked out so far.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

So I think there's something to be said for trusting the intuition and and not following like whatever the I don't know, laid out path or what people, your friends and family like think you should do or want you to do, or what even what you're good at, sometimes that's not it either. Um I think too many of us, myself included, kind of I got on a path that I had a really hard time getting off. Um you kind of get entrenched in the corporate world and the paycheck and the 401k, and you're like, but I don't really like this, I'm not really that good at it, and I don't want to do it. But then you just kind of do it for 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

So but I think it's also like it's important to acknowledge that we live in a world with significant risk. Like I have a lot of empathy for the people that stay on that track because it's safe and they have to feed their family. Like high five. That's that's the reality of the country we live in. And there is very little safety net. There is very little space for recovery. And that's what we need to be building more of. We need to be making it more possible for people to take risks and to follow the things they love. Like, I don't, I don't sort of look at it like I'm I did it and other people should too, or anything like that. It's like, man, I wish this was more possible for people.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Yeah, for sure. I think it's a little easier with the internet and all the social media, the barrier of entry is a little lower. Because it used to be like when I was growing up, like to start a business, it took a lot of money. You had to get a big loan, you usually had to buy a building, you needed employees, and you needed all this stuff. Now, obviously, you can pretty much start it with an internet connection and you know, LinkedIn's full of everyone's a coach of something. Very true. So it's but so not necessarily the answer, but I think you can. You know, if you have a full-time job, you can do it nights and weekends or whatnot. Um, I'm curious though, with a PhD in history, are you are you really good at Jeopardy? Uh I am amazing.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

I am amazing at Jeopardy.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Jeopardy.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Um especially because I studied cultural history. So I also have like a very strong lit background and I taught writing.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Perfect. Oh, perfect.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

But I'm I'm so my weak categories are geography. I'm like notoriously bad. My kids make fun of me. My six-year-old knows more geography than I do. Um, geography, science, it's not very good, not good at science, and sports. I I used to be better at following sports, and then like something had to go,

COAL, Risk, And Closing Advice

SPEAKER_01 43:15

and that went. Um, but yeah, anything like history, linguistic, like the word play ones, literature, and I'm really, really good at final jeopardy because I can almost always guess, like, not even answering the question, but like I'll get the category, and I'm like, I bet it's gonna be a question about this. Like, I I'm weirdly good at that. And my husband and I are excellent at pub trivia. We are like cutthroat at pub trivia.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

We so yeah, so Jeopardy is one of that's one of my other comedic bits. So um we when COVID hit, we started we went from eating dinner at the dinner table, like traditionally, and we just started eating in front of the T in front of the TV. Uh and then we've never gone back. Um and so we We watched like a lot of cooking shows and baking shows, um, and then game shows like The Wall, Pressure Luck, stuff like that. But Jeopardy was like the kind of the one thing that was the most consistent. And so I really started to like I mean, I watched Jeopardy as a kid with Alex Strabeck, but I hadn't seen it like in a lot of years, and I certainly hadn't seen like hardly any of the Ken Jennings Jeopardy. Anyway, so we started watching it, and then I do what I do, which is like observe, I step back and like what look at it through like a more observational lens. And so it is, I think it's like 75% is either literature, writing, history, geography. I feel like those if you know those four, you can answer a majority of Jeopardy questions. But I'm a huge sports fan. Like I grew up watching and playing sports, I know more useless sports information than anyone you'll probably ever meet. Uh just ridiculous statistics, players, games, all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

My husband can name any baseball player from any team every year. Like when we do pub trivia, if it's a sports question, I just slide the paper over to him. Like I, I mean, I'm from Pittsburgh originally, so like I do have a lot of like stealer, pirate, penguin, pride. But I I just don't follow it as much anymore. It's hard when you don't get the local channels and like you're just so busy. Um, but I will say, like, I will fully admit, I would be terrible if I was actually on Jeopardy because I don't, I don't have the buzzer. Like I don't have the buzzer skills. This would be me on Jeopardy. Here's my impression of Amy on Jeopardy. Oh, uh ugh, it's um, it's uh uh uh like that would be me the entire time. Because I I know all the answers, but like under pressure, no.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Yeah, can't do it. Well, there's yeah, so you've got if you watch Jeopardy, like there's always like the there's like the the guy or the the woman who just like like they're just con they look like they're just like like pressing it like a hundred times. And then there's people that you don't even know they're pressing it. Like they're just they have it like under their arm and they're just I don't even like just casually imagine just casually buzzing and no, could never be well and clear and clearly you have to buzz in almost like within five words, like you can't wait until the the he's read the clue, right? Because then you're just too late. So you almost have to think like I might I might know this, I probably will know this. And you start ringing in the case, it gets to the end, and then you have to come up with it. Because that's what my wife always says is like I couldn't do it in if I was on the show, I couldn't do it in that time. It's too quick. Uh like I can I can get there, I can think of it, but my brain needs more time to like think and process, whereas they're just like in and like here's the answer.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

We still we still tease my sister when she was in high school. She was on this like quiz show that like as a team from our high school, and she was afraid to buzz in because she never wants to be wrong, but she's mic'd up. So you can hear her whisper every answer, but not buzz in. She knew like every answer, but she never buzzed in because like that's just she just cannot be wrong. And if she's listening to this, Becky, you're never wrong about anything. Wink.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Uh that's another good movie, Quizho. If you haven't seen that one, you can watch it. I haven't quishoo.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

I don't get to watch movies anymore. I gotta get back to that.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Ray finds uh John Taturo, uh, it's a classic, Rob Morrow. Um, we watched my buddy and I watched that in college for some reason. It became like a cult. It's like a cult. Robert Redford directed it and it became like this. It's it's not a movie you think that you would watch like a bunch of times. You'd you'd be like, oh yeah, it's fine. But for some reason, we just got into it and then we would quote it, and we just watched it like an obscene number of times. Um, but it it it is good. Um, but it's about I think it's the sixties, fifties or sixties, and then uh they were giving contestants the answers. Um it's like a scan, like a scandal of like they didn't they seem like they knew all this information, but they didn't. And then um one of the guys says, like, why were why were people watching? Like, if if what difference does it make? And he was like, they were watching the money. Like they wanted they wanted to see the people win the money. They didn't care that they didn't know the answers, like they the money was it. Anyway, it's it's an interesting movie. Um it's totally different than Heat, so um totally different movies, but uh around the same time frame. Um so as we wrap up here, what uh someone out there listening, they they're struggling, whether it's it like you said, interviewing or or presenting scientific findings, or they do have to give a talk, what's kind of the one main thing that you would kind of leave them with?

SPEAKER_01 48:19

I guess I would bring it back to purpose. What are you trying to say? What are you trying to give your audience? And I'd very intentionally use that verb give. What are you giving your audience that they didn't have before you came on the scene? And if that is a tough question for you to answer, that could be part of the reason why you're feeling nervous about it, because it feels like it doesn't have purpose. So I would encourage them to spend more time really mapping that out and recognizing that it's not from a place of ego, it's from a place of purpose. So, what are you giving your audience? How are you impacting them? And for interviewing, you know, like why are you the right fit? How are you going to help that person that you're talking to and leading with that and letting that be sort of your north star?

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Yeah, no, I love that. Um, and if people are interested in learning more, I'll link this in the show notes. But um obviously you're on LinkedIn, that's how we connected. But how can they find you if they want to learn more about what you're doing or if they were potentially interested in working with you? Uh, how would they how would they track you down?

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Uh, LinkedIn's probably the place where I'm most active. Um, Amy Arbigast, you can find me there. I run a weekly video series called The Speech Coaches In, where I answer public speaking questions in two minutes or less. And that's um really fun. I also have a monthly newsletter called the Spark Plug that I publish via Substack. Links to all of that are on my LinkedIn and everything. And just generally, if they want to learn more about my business and and what I do, my company's website is sparkspeakroc.com. Um, but I, you know, I most actively post on LinkedIn. So if they're just interested in hearing more of what I have to say, that's sort of the first place I'd head.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Awesome. Yeah, we'll put the I'll put your LinkedIn uh IRL and then that pod or your website uh up. Uh really appreciate you coming on. It was great uh diving into this. I think it's something that everyone can relate to in one way or another. And uh hopefully they got a lot of it. Thanks, Amy, for coming on.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

This was great. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Absolutely.