By His Wounds We Are Healed

Griff Pearson joins us to talk about what Jesus physically endured during the crucifixion. We walk through what His body went through on the way to the cross, what happened during the crucifixion, and why He chose to endure that suffering.

Our prayer is that this conversation helps you stay humble and grateful as you reflect on what Jesus did for you—and remember that three days later, He rose again, defeating death, hell, and the grave. That’s something worth praising.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to OffScript, a conversation with no fakes, no filters, just real conversations about how faith and flesh meet in the everyday life, where we experience a God who made us on purpose for his purpose. This is Off Script. Let's talk.

SPEAKER_04 0:20

Hey guys, welcome back to Offscript. It's been a minute since we've been back in here, but I'm excited for today because we have a special guest, Mr. Griff Pearson.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

The infamous. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

And if y'all don't know Griff, you probably do because if you've ever been to Beach Week, he has been our Beach Week ref.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

This one time. This one time I do remember that stands out. Now, Griff, I'm sure this has been burnt into your brain. I remember it was an intense moment. The championship was about to be crimmed. It came to a tug of war, and you blew the whistle at the wrong time. That's right. At the wrong time, premature whistle. And then you kept looking like, hey, it wasn't me. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

I was like, it wasn't me. I was really thinking about dropping the whistle, and I was like, who whistled that whistle?

SPEAKER_04 1:13

All weekend they'd all just been hanging out with those whistles. Like I don't think y'all ever took them off. So it was just like I didn't have it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

And somebody thought they were going to be champions and they realized no, and they had to go back and we had to do it again. And the other team won. And it was intense. It was. And to this day, I don't know if we've ever ended on Tug of War again.

SPEAKER_05 1:34

We have not.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

I didn't think Caleb was going to let you come back after this.

SPEAKER_05 1:38

Well, now at the finale every semester every year, that I usually stand away somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

I've been glad to hear you were like, I'm avoiding it.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

People that were just like, I don't know if I know who Griff is. Now all of a sudden they know exactly who you are. Camo helmet.

SPEAKER_05 1:56

I'm not listening to this from this spot right now. Episode 31.

SPEAKER_04 2:01

That's so funny. Well, okay, so today we're going to be talking about, I guess it was Easter going on and kind of wrap that up, but we're going to be talking about what physically happened to Jesus during the crucifixion. I think sometimes, and Griff was just, you can kind of touch on this, we forget the gravity of what actually happened. I was telling Luke on the way to the service on Easter, like sometimes I wish that I could fully understand so that I could give, give God what it deserves and give the Lord what it deserves. And it's like we really like we really can't because we just cannot even understand what he really went through. And so I thought that would be really interesting just with Easter, but then also just what this podcast is. It's just talking about how God made our bodies and all that.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

And so Yeah, I I I wonder, you know, I think people need to maybe understand too before we start, especially if you've just you haven't listened to the every conversation, you're just kind of you you type something in and it came up on your podcast and you're just listening right now, and you don't really know any of us or or our church. You need to kind of understand from the beginning. We we do believe that that Jesus Christ was God's Son. We believe that he was born of a virgin Mary. We believe that he went to the cross not because Romans put him up there, but because our sin put him up there. That's what we believe, which kind of sets us apart from maybe other other other faith groups, but we we believe our sin is what put him there, and a great victory happened on the cross. We do believe that he died for our sins, he died a very painful death, and that he rose again three days later, that he is alive and well, that he ascended into heaven, and one day he's coming back for his people. And so that is a very short version of like what we believe when we're about to jump into this conversation. But uh it is a heavy conversation. This might be something that you might you you you might have to listen twice, you might have to go through and take a break and then come back to it. Some people might not get out of their car, they might sit in their car and finish this because there are some heavy things in here. But Griff, go ahead, tell us a little bit about maybe why I mean there's multiple people that we probably could bring into a room to talk through the crucifixion, but you personally have a good connection of like, hey, this is what happened in my life, and this is where I began my study and and and why you're sitting right here.

SPEAKER_05 4:21

Yeah. So yeah, I went to Gardendale and then, you know, physical therapy kind of fell into my lap, just wanting to be around sports. So I've always been around the human body, having to take anatomy, physiology, different courses just throughout my time. And now I'm in PT school, just kind of still continuing that education. But Pastor Kevin actually uh he talks about a lot that when your fire kind of burns low, when you're in a like a lull spot, it's good to go back and remember what Christ did on the cross and what he had to suffer to set us free and to mend that relationship with us and the Father. And that's where I was. I was probably like sophomore, junior year of college. I was just in a lull spot. Nothing really was going on. It was just like my my faith wasn't as strong as it once was. And this is where that study began. Like I it was literally a Sunday, and he challenged us like if you're in a lull, like do this. And I went and did it. And you know, and with my knowledge through school, like it just kind of kept on adding up and just got to where I am now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

What what what where did you start? I mean, did you just say, like, well, I'm just gonna start with what I already know. I'm gonna start with like let me read you know, each of the gospels, or what where like where did you start and say this is gonna be the starting point for this journey I'm about to take?

SPEAKER_05 5:31

Yeah. So I started with the gospels, just read each account and how that kind of varied, just each every perspective. And then a lot of like a lot of people, I went to YouTube and just say like what uh what do other people say and just talking about all the medical evidence there as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Which part was it that uh well, you know, let's let's start probably with the journey, and then when we get to the crucifixion, you you jump in. So I might give you just in case you don't know a little bit of the story, let me I'll I'll tell you so you could probably start on Holy Week. Holy week's eight days that the church celebrates, kind of starts on a Sunday. This is when Jesus comes into town, and he's I mean, he's it's coordinated like a king, you know. I mean, he comes in riding a donkey, and I know people say, well, you know, that was just why is he doing that? That was what most of the kings, I mean, David, Solomon, you had most of your judges, they arrived on donkeys. So that was like the the the ride of a king, and so and it just meant peace. I'm a king of peace. And so he he comes in, the first thing he does, he goes to his house, he goes to the the temple, and when he goes to the temple, uh he realizes you know where where we go to connect to the Father, it's turned into a den of thieves. And he begins to flip over the tables and he begins to after that he begins to teach about the the kingdom of God, he begins to teach about what should be happening at the temple and moves on throughout the week. He just begins to teach in unique ways, he begins to really draw people into him. I mean, the Lord has a unique way of drawing people back to him, you know, just throughout the whole Bible. He just has a unique way of doing that. And as the the the week goes, uh you get into Thursday, Thursday, you get into the upper room, and this is probably John chapter 12, is really where it picks up in the upper room. And so for about seven chapters, if you really want to know what happens in the upper room, that last supper, there's about seven chapters in John that go through that. And he has this big conversation where he's breaking bread, he's he's giving the Lord's Supper. And you you I'm I'm skipping a lot, but you he they're gonna leave from there. When they leave from there, they go into the Garden of Gethsemane, and when they get to this garden, the this is where Jesus is gonna be arrested, and multiple things happen in that moment. Jesus is arrested. This which is also a very interesting and great study. If you want to study the Garden of Gethsemane, that is a great study as well. So many things happen in the garden. He's arrested and betrayed with a kiss from Judas, which is a whole nother story that I mean you you could spend a whole year just in what I've just talked about. But he ends up taking a journey. That that that whole thing starts about midnight. Okay, so it starts about midnight uh and he he probably travels about two miles of all the traveling that's happening right now. He kind of goes to the other end of the garden, he sees a few people, he sees who used to be the high priest, and then he goes to the high priest, and when he gets to the high priest, this is when the first time you it it begins to get very physical, and you can kind of see where the beatings and everything begins to start. They'll take him to Pilate. Pilate takes him to Herod because nobody wants to, besides the Pharisees, that nobody wants to condemn him. They're like, Well, what has he done wrong? And then as he keeps moving to different people, you know, it's probably about 5 a.m. when he gets to uh on Friday, when he gets to Herod, when he gets to Herod, you know, he's Herod wants him to do a trick in front of him, like, hey, show me something. And he doesn't, and you know, he he clothes him with this really nice robe and he sends him back, you know. And then Pilate is when you have he goes back to Pilate. When he gets back to Pilate, Pilate says, Do you want Barabbas? Do you want Jesus? And then from that moment, the crowd chants, I want Barabbas. And after that, the scourging starts, which is probably the part that probably began to hit you probably the most in that journey.

SPEAKER_05 9:30

The first one that actually happened in the garden. Oh, in the garden, yeah. Yeah. Sweating blood. Yeah. That was something that, especially at UAB, you know, being a Christian, people would come and ask me questions. That was a a question that came up a lot, like, how the hell does this happen? And there's actually a medical term, it's called hemathydrosis. Which is just bleeding, sweating blood. There's about 14 accounts of it in medical uh history. So that is like a possible thing. And I think also coming from my point of view, I don't have to have evidence for everything. But when there is evidence, I would like to know it. You know, so I know my God can do things that don't make sense that the other like humans cannot do. But I think it's cool when there is evidence to to because most people say, I've never heard anybody doing this.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

This is why this is not true. And you're like, no, well, you can there's evidence of this happening to people.

SPEAKER_05 10:17

And I and there's stuff that I can't explain, like that's just a God thing.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah. People I know people want to get into, well, what was he stressed? Was he stressed about dying? Was he stressed about and I none of us can be in his brain. I would just tell you, I I think a lot of that, if you just look at the history of Jesus and and what when he is highly emotional, when Jesus wept, when all those moments are all tied around when he he sees or he knows he's about to be taken away from his father. And and it it wasn't I I you know, I mean, I'm sure it was excruciating pain. I'm I'm sure he knows what he was getting into, but it was more of we would be worried about the pain. We would be worried about the cross, we'd be worried about that. But the fact that he would be taken away from his heavenly father was was the excruciating part that he could not bear, which we we have no connection to how that would even look. You know, like that, you know, so everybody has their own. Well, it was this, it was this, and I nobody knows. I don't, I don't know. I I would just assume, just basically walking through scripture, it's because his relationship with the father was so good. He realized after this, please take this cup from me, Lord, because man, I I I don't want to live a life without you. I can't do this. And so, yeah, you see the stress, the all that that's that's that's playing part in that. So, yeah, that's the first time you kind of see this medical perspective, yeah, perspective that begins to take place. But yeah, yeah, keep you keep going through that.

SPEAKER_05 11:43

Okay. Yeah, and then like you said, it was about two and a half miles throughout the night that he was walking around. And also, it's I think also, you know, Jesus was an ear early riser, so on Thursday he more than likely arose and like was was praying, was you know, because he knew what the what the following days were to were to happen. So he was up about 36 hours before he gave up his spirit on the cross. Yeah. And I mean, just 24 hours is a long time. You add 12 more to that. I mean, that's a that's a long time. That takes a toll on the body.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

That your adrenaline's even going through the I mean, like from the from the time you were arrested to praying in the garden, you know, to I mean, like for uh you're walking, the judgments that are coming, like the adrenaline rush that has not stopped.

SPEAKER_05 12:25

Yeah, his body's in survival mode for sure. Heart heart rate would have been like through the roof. Like he would not be able to control it, he would not be able to get that back down. Not he could. He could. But a normal human body, it would it would be going through the roof, especially with the beating and the score scourging.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Yeah. And so I know they they would they would take someone and say, hey, we're gonna, you know, I think he had 39 lashes that he had to go. But but you know, and I know uh at what point have they begun to follow the law up to this point? You know what I'm saying? At what point has people been like, oh, you know what, that was the law, we shouldn't have done this. I mean, people have been lying, I mean, a whole council was ready at 2 a.m. That's right. No, that they're not nothing, nobody's following the law. And you so I mean, yeah, it says 39 times, but that was the law. I I'm sure everybody counted correctly. For sure. You know, so and uh the catanine tails. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot there to unpack for sure. Yeah, keep going.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

Okay. So yeah, so the cat of nine tails, we know that it was it was it was not like an Indiana Jones whip. This is an intimate like torture device. It is probably like two to three feet long. And at the end of each tail, so to say, there was a lead ball, and then probably either bone or metal fragments for cutting. Yeah. And then the sh the soldiers, the Roman soldiers, these were like very fit. They were not puny, they were not, these were like Roman legions. Like these were big guys, these were the dudes of the Roman like Empire. I think that's a that's another perspective. But also, if you think about the catanine tails, so you would swing and the the point of that metal ball was to embed, to like to c cause damage and to stick. So there is also uh embedment and then to pull out to de-embed. It was r made to rip flesh out of the out of the body.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

So uh and I know they would they would do this, you know, you're you're they would probably have a put piece of a tree or a large object that they would either your hands would be r tied together where you're stretching out to the top, or you would be bent over the top of it. You know, either way is painful, but you you know, and they would be stripped naked while they're doing that. And so and people would watch this. Yeah, this was this would watch this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:38

This was just this was entertainment. This was like town, it was somewhere in the middle of town, like it would everybody would go and watch. Same thing. Crucifixion was entertainment. It was just to also show like do not like don't mess with the the Roman Empire. Like this can this is what can happen. This is like showing their power, so to say, like what they could do.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yeah, so they they they so they so you have obviously the the abuse up to this point. And on top of that, you know, after they are finished with this, they they you have the the the crown. You also have the part that I it that sticks with me and it kind of makes me feel this more, is you know, they keep clothing him with robes and your your flesh, you're bleeding, you're pouring blood, you know, the Bible says you you you you could not even tell who this was, you know. And they're putting that on you, and you know, just in PT world, you know, you got a cut and you you put some cloth on it, you know, it's just gonna dry to it. That's right. And they kept ripping it off of him, putting something on him, is drying, and then ripping it off again. And that is a that's something that like I I mean, I've had open wounds and I've put something on there, and you just barely pull it off slowly, and they're just ripping it off, and his whole body is is is is mangled and bleeding up at the end.

SPEAKER_05 16:02

The wounds are are some of the worst part. The historians say that the catadine tails it would do cause about a two-inch wide cut and then a one-inch deep cut.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_05 16:12

And in modern medical, that's for each tail. So modern medical, that'd be twenty stitches to to suture that one cut. So you multiply that by nine per strike, it was 180 stitches to close up. So multiply that by 39 because that's how many lashes he's got. He's taking over 7,000 sutures to close all of these wounds. Wow. If if this is modern day. 7,000 stitches.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

It's not, it's not. I mean, it's you can't. He's unrecognizable. You can't know who this is. Yeah. And I'm sure it's it's around the rib cage now. It's it's I mean, there's nothing else to hit. And so you're probably going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 16:49

Right on top of the head, over the forehead, back of the legs.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah. And so I'm sure you're just trying to find something to hit. Yeah. He's he's crowned and uh the the the crown of thorns, can can you walk through any of the I mean any of that?

SPEAKER_05 17:08

Yeah, so medieval like paintings of of the crucifixion and stuff, that it gives it a halo effect, like a circle. And I think that was just like the artist point of view. Yeah. It was m I would a lot of people say it's more of a helmet. Yeah, it was more of a top to it, everything. And these these thorns were an inch to two inches long. Yeah. And embedded. It wasn't just sat, of course. It was pushed. It was and there's only you know millimeters of skin between skull and and the surface.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah, so it's piercing into a skull. It is it is not it's not moving. I mean, it is it is wedged in there. And so I think some people are, you know, like you imagine like a knockout rose bush, you know, with those thorns on it. And it it's enough where like you can go through this entire beating and it has not come off your head, which means it is wedged on there and pierced into bone and in skull. And and so yeah, uh, so it that that has happened. He's got to go back. Now he's gonna have to face the cross. Now, the cross has a unique history of it it had been around for a long time. It had just taken different forms. You have the Romans perfected it. Yes, yeah. So you had Arminians, Babylonians, they kind of what they would do is they would start out with uh a little bit of the Persians did this too. They would just kind of start out with a stick and they would lay somebody on their back over the top of it and just kind of bend them over it, and they would just uh and it would just go through their back. But people would be dying too quickly, so they were like, well, let's impale them the other way. Let's and so they were just impelling people at different ways to see how long we could let we could keep this. The Persians got a little better with it, and then the Greeks kind of took it, and that's when you kind of saw them more attaching someone to uh, you know, a piece of wood, and then you kind of get where Romans start to play around with, you know, you you had this X look, and then you had, you know, the T look and the capital T, the you know, lowercase T look. And so they've just per more than perfected it, they got to a point where while you're on the cross, they can make you last longer and suffer longer. And so we're now at the cross. You got the patibellum, he's got a carry, and I I'm gonna I'm gonna cover a little bit to to the point of like to the cross, and I want you to kind of talk through a little bit of the cross. So you got the patibellum, which is about a hundred pounds of wood that is, it's really that the the the if you can imagine the cross, it's the it's the the piece that where the arms are. That's the gonna be the patibellum. It's one piece of wood, it's about a hundred pounds. That's what somebody would walk through the city with. They would walk with that on them. And so they have that, and it's usually tied to the side, tied to their arms because they haven't been nailed into the cross, which is something that the Persians and the Greeks kind of changed as they they they used to just tie someone to it, and now the Romans are nailing someone, but still when you're carrying it through the city, you're you're just tied to it. And so they would your arms would be tied to it, it's a hundred pounds. Think about where he's been over the last 36 hours, you know, and and so now he's having to carry that through about it's about a half a mile to a mile, probably the um this this the the way of suffering is what it's called, all the way to Galgotha. And so as he's on that journey, which is when I think of the Lord's Supper, this is where my mind goes, is this this piece right here is where my mind goes. Uh, when we have to remember through the Lord's Supper. But I he he's on his journey. He obviously he he cannot get it there. Like he he it's I can't imagine how slow he's going, he can't get it there. Uh a man comes and helps him carry it to the cross. A soldier makes him come and carry it to the cross for him, and now we're at the cross. All right, and so you want to pick up a little bit with that.

SPEAKER_05 21:03

Yeah. So there's a Greek word that's used about the nails and where they are in the the hand area, and it's share. And how I think of that word or what it boils down to is basically from the elbow down. So I think medically, if you were to put a nail through the hand and this is what's hanging you up in the air, it would rip out between the fingers. So what they probably did would be in between your radius and onto the two bones of your forearm. It was right down the middle of it. So we were talking about this is not the crucifixion is not meant to kill somebody. This is meant to torture them. Yeah. So if you did it straight through the middle of your wrist, you would not hit any major arteries or veins. So there was no be no bleeding. Or there would be no significant bleeding. Yeah. It would only hit a median nerve. So the the nerve that's compressed during like carpal tunnel, people talk about carpal tunnels, that would be the nerve that's severed. It would be gone. And that again, there would be muscles and rec retinaculum, which is just connective tissue with That would be holding you so that way you couldn't fall off the cross. I think that would be kind of one thing as well as when you cut a nerve, there's the feeling of just electrical shock that just happens. It's a continuation. It doesn't stop because that nerve is severed. Because your body's just like what's going on. It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

Is there anything that maybe we got wrong about his feet, like where they put the nail in his feet?

SPEAKER_05 22:26

So some people say that they were kind of laid on top of each other and straight through them both, kind of through the middle, middle of the foot. I think that's a possible possibility because that's also not hitting any major arteries or vein. It's the dorsal pedus artery and vein and the dorsal venous arch in your foot. It would miss all of that. It would only hit the plantar nerve. And that nerve is what basically what gives innervation to your feet. And that's sensory. So it again, that electrical shock sensation. But there's also been a finding of somebody else who was crucified under Pilate, and they just suggest he could have done it the same way, is they would almost straddle the cross and it would be through your heel bone on both sides. So there's technically four nails. Yeah. Two in the hands and one on each foot. They found that heel bone, and that's why people suggest it could be that as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

So, you know, I know they would take your arms and they would kind of move them in a little bit, and they would nail the arms to the cross, and then when they did that to the feet, they would put you, you would bend your knees a little bit, and you it might be weird when they're on when you're on the ground, but once you go up onto the cross, it sends your entire body forward, you know? And now you're not you're you I know sometimes people imagine the someone's back being on the cross, but because of the way they put you on there, you're you're you're you're kind of spaced out from it, you're kind of hung out there and which stops a lot of your breathing. You know?

SPEAKER_04 23:56

You're really just hung up by your wrist.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

Yeah. So with that position, your diaphragm, so that major muscle that kind of separates your lungs and then like the rest of your abdomen, your internal organs, that's a muscle that helps with with breathing. And this would all basically shift down into your abdomen. So all of your internal organs would just shift downward. And so this would make it easy to get air in, but to breathe out, you'd have to pull against gravity with those nails in your hand, and that's how you'd have to get air out.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:27

And I think that's why a lot of people say that Jesus could only speak about three or four words while he was on the cross, because he could not get any air out. Yeah. This is all that's all he could do.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

So he was, he was, I can't imagine. I mean, it says it tells you the hours that he was up there. I mean, he's there for six hours on on a cross. It gives seven statements throughout the whole time over those six hours. So you can tell every time he he he wants to uh to talk. I mean, really, he's he's pushing off of his his heels, he's pushing off his legs and pushing off of his arms to speak. And then he'll sink back down. So every time he wants to say something or take a breath, he'd have to push himself up, say it, and then he'd let himself back down. And that's the only way that you could talk on the cross, which uh at the same time the the thieves on both sides when the when they're dying when uh you don't really think through too I mean, because you have the King of Kings up there, you don't really think a whole lot through the guys next to him, but the one who is saying, Lord, would you remember me? I mean, he's also having to do the same thing. You know, he's he's also having to like push off of those things to breathe to talk to say, Would you remember me? Boom, back down, you know, like and then the other guys having to do the same thing just to say you're not who you say you are. You know what I'm saying? Like, can you imagine the torture that's happening just just to have a conversation on the cross with with all the the guys up there? Yeah, he's he's been up there for six hours. The part that I I mean there's multiple things that we can we can get into some more of the medical that that we've some important things about the cross that we've we have missed a little bit of he when he first gets up there, they offer they basically offer him something that's gonna kind of dull the pain. And he says, I don't want it, you know, I I don't want that. While he's there, you also gotta think too, the the Roman soldiers are casting lots for his clothes. This is the part that I I hope we never get to is I mean how this is this is one first of all, he's he's he's the king of kings and we're crucified. But there's just imagine how bloody it is with just three up there and they're they're g just gambling. They're just they're hanging out and gambling, and how desensitized you have to be to get to that point. And I I hope we don't ever, you know, like I hope we don't ever get that way when we talk about the cross at all. Like we're just the soldier that's gambling next to it. They're like, you really don't care. And you you know, you get to a you get to a sermon, you get you go to listen to a sermon, you you take part in one, and they're like, they they get to the gospel, they get to the cross, and you're like, well, I already know this story. And you kind of check out, or you start getting your things together. You you well, I already know this story, or man, this story is too difficult to listen to, or I don't, you know, like you just get desensitized to the cross, just like Roman soldiers. You're just sitting there doing this. You know, like our sin is holding, you know, one of the questions that the the thief asks is, why don't why don't you why don't you just get yourself off this cross? I mean, if that's who you are, why don't you just get yourself off? And he has the power to do it. He has the power to do it, but our sin held him there. And I think, Sydney, was it you yesterday that was talking about Judas and the 30 pieces of silver? Was it you that was telling me about that? No, there was a there was somebody who made a great point, and they were talking about, and we we skipped this earlier, but well it was a great point. It was a great point when Sydney did it, but yeah, but it was Jesus was betrayed by 30 pieces of silver from Judas. That's how much it cost Judas was 30 pieces of silver. We do that every day for free. You know, like it he got 30 pieces of silver and he ended up taking it back. But the things that we do, well, we we do it for free. Nobody's given us 30 pieces of silver. We do we do that all the time for free. And it that's what held him there was that is that sin held him there. And it was it was yet for the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross, which is mean he all all of humanity, all of people, everyone that would believe, he says, yet for the joy of the connection between he and the father, which you can have, that joy, yet for the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross, despising its shame, and now he is seated at the right hand of God. And so you have multiple moving parts at this point. He's he's up there for six hours, the Sabbath is about to come. You know, obviously someone there can be no work on the Sabbath. Somebody's got to come down. So one thing they say is, okay, well, you know, they they've got to come down, they're not dying fast enough. They've been up there six hours and they're not dying fast enough. And so in order to make them suffocate, they would break the kneecaps. And so as they're breaking their kneecaps, they get to Jesus, and even hundreds of years before it says, hey, no bone on his body will be broken. And they get to him and he's already dead. And so kind of you walk through a little bit of that scene with maybe even the water, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 30:01

So so if you were to take any blood and just set it out for probably like twenty to thirty minutes, it would separate into plasma and platelets, plasma being like the liquid, more watery substance, and the platelets being more the red that you see, like the blood itself broken down, and they'll s they'll dissociate or they'll s d separate. And this is what we see when the spear goes into Jesus' side. We think it's between the fourth and sixth, fifth and sixth rib, somewhere right there. And they bring they say it's water and blood that comes from his side. I mean, this is kind of what that is. It's the the plasma that has already been uh the separated, and then the platelets also coming out at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

So that's kind of what should he's dead.

SPEAKER_05 30:43

Yeah, so he's he's probably been dead for over twenty to thirty minutes.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, they I would I always think it is unique in in the garden. He's sitting there and he's saying, Hey, would you would you take this cup from me? You know, like if it's your will, would you take this cup from me? And up to that point, you know, one of his one of his final words is now I thirst. You know, like, you know, take take this away. And now he's saying, No, no, no, I'm I'm thirsty now. You know, like I'm thirsty. And I just think that is just a unique look to the cross. So you've got his his seven statements, which are great statements. If you want another thing to go look and study, there's so far we've given you five different studies to go look at. I but one of them is just the seven things that Jesus said on the cross before he before he uh died. And it's about to be Sabbath, they go and they take a man basically says, Hey, you you can put him in these tombs right here, you can put him in this tomb. And they take him off the cross, and they need to do that before Sabbath is there. And so they take him off the cross and they put him in a tomb, and so that is Friday. Okay, so if you ever hear someone talk about Good Friday, that that's this is the Friday that we're talking about. So when it does the holy week, yeah, Thursday was the upper room, Friday is when he is crucified, it ends with him in the tomb on Friday, which now evil thinks they have won. You know, Satan built up this huge army, and evil thinks that it has won. And and so now you want to pick up a little bit with maybe the this part of the story, he's now in the tomb.

SPEAKER_05 32:23

Yeah. You know? So we know that like spices were used to basically allow or not to allow the body to decompose and allow people to come and still see with it like preparing for burial, so to say, and kind of still continuing that. And that's really kind of the main thing that happens there. And then of course, when they go back to do that, he's not there. That's when the where the rest of the story kind of picks up.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yeah, yeah. And I would say you're now at uh I can't I can't imagine how people are on Saturday, you know, and this is the Sabbath, you know, this is Sabbath day, and so it's not like you're gonna go work and keep yourself busy.

SPEAKER_05 33:00

You're just sitting there, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

You're just sitting there, you know. Like, I mean, I know when I'm when I'm when I've got to think through something or something's really heavy on me, I'll just go work or do something or build something or you know, cut grass, or do I'll just go work. The next day is Sabbath. All you can do is sit there and remember and and play back something. It's not like you're working for anything. And I can't imagine that day of the doubt, the insecurity, the the fear of the disciples. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they're locked in a room at this point.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

That's what I was just thinking about. I'm probably just processing this as I were talking, but just the mental side of what was probably go, and I know we can't understand what maybe he was thinking in those moments, but like I mean, just as little as like, I mean, we all work out and you're thinking about how to get like for me, I have to mentally get myself through a workout of like, okay, I only have to get to this point, I only have this many, this many minutes left or whatever. Like, I'm just like, I know it was way more than that, obviously. But I can't like I can't get myself to even even in the slightest understand what just the mental capacity that that took for him. Like one, knowing it was about to happen, and then having to get through it, I don't know. I don't I mean, I don't have like a reason for that.

SPEAKER_05 34:20

It's crazy to think that he was still coherent on the cross. Yeah. He could pick out his mother, friends, yeah. He could make statements, could make sentences. If he went through that much pain, I don't think any other human could they would probably be passed out, they're incoherent.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

I'm surprised he was still alive when he got to the cross. You know?

SPEAKER_04 34:37

So the other two guys, did they endure like the same things, or was his like even more?

SPEAKER_00 34:44

I don't think they're they're scourging. I don't know anything about their scourging, but even if they were scourged, it was nothing like I mean by the time Jesus had already got to the scourging, he was already bleeding, bruised, you know, like I mean, he was already he he had already gone through a beating. He'd already gone through a scourging, you know. And so by the time he had got there, it was almost like his third one that he was getting. And and his started at midnight. Uh these other guys, I I don't know, we don't really have anything really on them, but I would assume that Jesus took the the worst beating that any human has ever taken. Yeah. And I know this is also what why we're telling this story is because on Sunday he arose. Like he walked out of the grave. Like he walked out. Like, this is the part where people say, I can't get my mind around this part. This is the part that like I have a hard, like I do, I believe Jesus was a real man. Like I believe he did great things. I believe he taught people really well. Like, is he the son of God? I don't, I don't really know. I just all I know is like this is the part I cannot take, is that he was dead and he came back. That's the part that I cannot trust. And I think that is the part where like you look through this, and I think people, there's plenty of evidence that Jesus was here on this earth. And people that don't believe in God, they're like that there was a man named Jesus who taught and walked on this earth and he died a terrible death. Like there, people historians will tell you this is this is accurate. It happened. The fact that like he is alive and well is what kind of separates us. Say, like, no, this this is what we believe to be true. This is why we, this is why the church has started, this is why like we we we try to be above reproach. This is why we are held to a higher standard, is because of our faith. And there's some things about the Bible that, and you you alluded to this at the beginning. There's some things because of your medical history, you you want to know more about, and there's things that you can piece together. The Bible doesn't give us every answer. That's right. I mean, there's plenty of things right now. We even talk down here, like, I don't really know. You know, like there's plenty of things we don't have every single answer, but he gave us enough to walk by faith. That's right. He gave us enough. And that's our choice, whether we want to say, Hey, I want to believe in you and walk in your name, or I want to walk away from you. And I think when people understand the cross, it's not obviously the Bible tells us we're we're we're sin abounds in our life, grace will abound more. And it's not a free ticket to go do whatever you want to go do. However, you'll take it that way if you don't know the cross. And but once you know the cross, your your conviction of the Holy Spirit, because the Lord says, Hey, I'm ascending into heaven, but I'm gonna send you a helper. And this helper, I mean, think about just us three. I mean, how how dirty of humans we are. You know, I'm saying, like, we need a helper. Like we have to have a helper, you know, of that conviction of that we we need a helper, someone who is who is lets us know that we're we're not by ourselves, that that the Lord is with us, we need that helper. And that is that's a piece of our walk that if you when when you sin, the the conviction of the Holy Spirit makes you not want to go back. It's not, well, because of the cross, I can do what I want to.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

It's because of the cross, I want to be different and I want to change, and I want to not just add something to my life, but I want to transform the way that my life is. Yeah. I I mean, uh anything else? You guys, I mean, I I just I know we can keep walking through this m multiple pieces of the crucifixion.

SPEAKER_04 38:46

Well, I feel like I'm still just such a like innocent learner in all of this. Like, I feel like I've learned more in just the last few years than and I even grew up in church. But one thing I never kind of put together was like the veil being torn and like what that meant, how it was torn from top to bottom. Typically, if you tear something, you're gonna tear it from like especially that it'd be like from the I'm sorry. Yeah, I said top to bottom, bottom to top.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:12

And but and the more you like really read a lot of stuff like that, like when kind of someone else explained this.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

You know, this is probably I think uh maybe three years ago, maybe we walked through a little bit of this with students, and I would say 90% of the students had no clue. They're like, I you know, when we sing a song about the veil is torn, I don't even know what that is, you know, like and you felt like a terrible pastor because you're like, you know, guys, you you need to know what this is. So just a quick like reading in Exodus. Sorry, I'm no, you go, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

Just like I've been that's where I've been lately. And right now I'm in the part where they're like building all the Ark of the Covenant and the Tabernacle, all those things. Of course, it's like so repetitive, and there's a whole nother like stuff I've learned with that. But I feel like when I was growing up, like learning all of this, and you just heard that, there was not this like big picture. And now that I've actually started like walking through from like chronologically and like hearing or just reading all of that stuff, it's like okay, there's all of this is just one one big picture, obviously. But kind of walk, Caleb, you walk through because I may I may butcher it, but yeah, you know, so you have the temple and Griff, jump in any time you want to, man.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

You have the temple, and as you have this temple, there's a a certain spot that is it's the holy of holy. It's this it is the most sacred. This is the this is where the spirit of the Lord is, okay? And and it's a a place where only uh only once high priest will walk into this area and he will offer a sacrifice that will atone for the people, the people's sin. And it is, I mean, it's a it's a holy spot that even even the priest, you know, like had to have a rope on him in case something wrong happened and he died, they could pull him out without somebody else going in there. I mean, it is a it is a holy and sacred place because we don't serve just a lovey-dovey God. We we serve one who is full of love, but full of wrath and full of judgment and full of mercy all at the same time, which means the wrath of there has to be the wrath of God for sin. And it's very serious. Sin is a serious thing, and so that had to be atoned for, and that had been happening forever. There's a holy of holies, and the high priest can go in there, and that's the only one that can go in there, and they have to atone for their sin and uh sin for the people and through a sacrifice. But an animal sacrifice is not good enough, it's just not, it's temporary. If if it was good enough, we wouldn't have to do it anymore. We just do it once and that's it. And when Jesus died on the cross, it it it says that in the temple, that from the top, not from the bottom, but from the top down, that it was the the curtain that divided, which is a incredibly thick, tall curtain. It's not like something at your house. I'm talking about this is very heavy, extremely thick.

SPEAKER_04 42:18

Like, why did I always picture it as like like a wedding?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Like really shit. Yeah, yeah. So it is, it is, it is more than soundproof. Okay. It is very, I mean, it's like a wall, and it is torn from top to bottom where now the holy of holies you can look into, where anybody in the temple could see it, not just one person, which means you and I can go into and talk to the Lord in prayer. You don't a student doesn't have to come to me so that I can go talk to the Lord. They can like right now, you can be listening to this and be saying, you know what, I've been desensitized to the cross, and man, I feel guilty about that. And man, I'm sorry. You don't have to come tell me that you're sorry. You literally can have a conversation with the Lord right now because the curtain has been torn from top to bottom, and the king is alive. Like it he has now offered you a place that you can in Hebrews it says that you can confidently go into the throne room now. You can. You can confidently go into the throne room and you can ask. And that's why we have prayer. But yeah, that there's so many pieces to this story.

SPEAKER_04 43:28

It's also just so interesting, like how they had to be like anointed, they had to be washed, like wear certain things, and like just even those little details, like you don't have to have that in the case. Right? Yeah. So I don't know. Um that I thought that that was interesting. I think I didn't understand the whole like the veil being torn and what that meant. And you just hear that and you sing it. And but I think for me it was really cool the top to bottom part.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Where so what do people do? Like you're there's people are w listening to this, you know. I mean, what what do you want people to do with this? You know, like what do we want people to do with this?

SPEAKER_04 44:09

Well, Griff, is there anything else that was like just maybe like a turning point for you as you were learning this or something?

SPEAKER_05 44:18

Towards the end, you think about like the disciples saw this. They were w first hand witnesses of it. And then Jesus arose on Sunday and they fully believe they it's great. But then, you know, when they get pressed, when they like down the road, like they're it's not they're not gonna die for a lie. They're gonna go through the like Peter, he goes through relatively some of the same stuff.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

And he's gonna die knowing the truth. And he's not gonna turn from that because he's seen it. So he's gonna he's gonna say, I saw what Jesus did, and I'm willing to do the same because I know he he is who said he. Why would he die? Why would he witness it and be like, that's exactly what I want? If it's a lie. That was one of the biggest things for me. And that's another thing that I talk about when people are like, I just don't know. You know, did he really rise? It's like, and why did all these disciples like see firsthand the torture, the torment, and was like, I'm gonna do that just to know that I that I'm standing on truth.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

And at some point they, you know, they it even gets into the upper room. He says, I mean, uh later on when he sees them, uh, when they're all locked into a room, okay, like later on, they're all locked themselves in, which means every single one of them doubt. I and then on top of that, I know you get Thomas gets the bad rap for doubting Thomas, okay, but literally the ver the chat or the paragraph right before it says, none of the disciples believe, you know, like they all doubted. But then Thomas asked the question, I'm like, why does Thomas get always? Every single one of them are it sounds like he's the bold one that says, like, hey, I'll be the one to talk, you know. But I would just say, you know, that at some point they all had that insecurity, but it goes back to what you just said. A huge piece of the puzzle is if this did not happen, uh they were locked into a room. And now you see them saying, No, I'll take on the cross now. I mean, I'll go do this. Something had to have happened. You know, and I don't think it was a halftime speech.

SPEAKER_05 46:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Like, I don't think the guys were like, hey, we got to get out there and make this happen because it was a lie. I mean, they saw something on that day, and that's what we hold to be true, and that's why we shape, that's why we do what we do. You know, that's why, you know, you're you you're in PT the way that you are. You know, like you're that's why we serve in student ministry. That's why we do the things that we do, because this is real and it has happened. And I would say for someone sitting out there that you you want this to be a part of your life. This story, whether you choose that or not, it will be a part of your story. Because either you will choose for Christ to He paid for your sin, or you'll have to pay for your own sin. That that's how this works, is there's a place called hell, and if you the Bible says if you do not believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that he is Lord and what he did, and that he arose from the ground, you if you do not believe these things, then you will have to pay for your own sin one day when you die. If you believe these things and you walk in those ways, you believe him, and you confess it, he says, then you will be saved. That's the gospel. It's here's what he's done. It's a free gift. I say this part, like what you just experienced. You know, what he did for us is a free gift. You know, experience and salvation, that is a free gift to you. But if you want what you just had, which is intimacy with the Lord, because you're trying to figure out what happened, how did this happen? I want it to hit me different. Like I'm in a lull, like I I miss being close to the Lord, and you sought out intimacy, that costs you something. That that costs time and energy, and it it it cost friendships, it costs jobs sometimes, it costs money. Like intimacy will cost you something. And for the mass amount of people, I think that they enjoy the part of salvation. Oh man, hey, I believe, man, I walk in him, and man, I'm not perfect, you know, but there's no intimacy between you and the Lord. It's just you believed and you you have salvation because you believe. But between you and the Lord, there is no intimacy between you two. And that is what cost you. That's what you got to spend some time with. I would say if you're listening to this right now and you've never accepted the Lord, a great way to start that is through a conversation. Okay, that's the great way to start. And so what we do at our church is we just say, Won't you start that in a conversation with the Lord through prayer? Okay, and so it it in your own words, if you're listening to this, say, man, I need to accept the Lord as as my savior, it start out with a conversation. It could be in your car, it could be in a room, it could be you're working out right now. Just stop and go to the side somewhere and just say, Hey, Lord, I I apologize. Like, I I'm a sinner. I I'm away from you, I'm apart from you. And Lord, I want to accept you as my savior. I believe in you. I believe that you died on the cross for me. I believe that you rose again. Lord, I I want to walk in your way. I'm going to walk in your ways. Like I I I Lord, I believe that you are the Savior and you are my King. In your name I pray. Amen. And like that begins a conversation that should come continue on. Like in and some prayers are a lot longer than that people have. Some people are a lot shorter. It the Bible just says if you believe in your heart and you confess with your mouth, then you will be saved. And so start with the conversation, and then as you learn more about the Lord, you know, we we might end a little bit with this, Greg, but I I I think this is what we deal with a lot student ministry-wise, is when you first make that like, hey, man, I I see what the Lord has done, and I need to change something. When you start there, you you don't know a whole lot about the Lord. You you know about his goodness, but you might not have experienced it first, which is different when you read the Bible. People experienced it first and then they then they knew it. But we just hear that the Lord is good all the time. Well, when you're learning about his goodness, sometimes it convicts you. So if you accept the Lord, you're not gonna know everything. You don't know everything. And as you learn more about him, you should be convicted. So it doesn't mean, oh, I need to be saved 15 times, I need to be baptized 120 more times, every time I sin, I need to go get in the baptistry. That doesn't mean that. That means I acknowledge that I I need the Lord. I acknowledge what he's done. I acknowledge that I'm a sinner. I acknowledge that he is my savior. And as you begin to learn, you will realize every time I learn more about who God is, every time I learn more about who Christ is, I'm convicted. Great. You should be. If you stay in church and you stay around godly teaching and you go a year and you don't feel like you're lost, what have you been doing? You have not learned anything. Like if you go, if you go five years of your life and never convicted of like that thought of like, my gosh, I think I'm lost. Like, I don't even know the Lord, like I think there's something wrong. Like, you you better have that. You better have that conviction, but hold fast to what he has said. Like, I believed, I walked in you, I would do these things. You're just learning more about who he is. That's right. And it should change your worship. And it's not that you need to be saved 15 million times, it's that you realize the covenant the Lord has made and that he is good on his promise. And so that's what many conversations go around. And and I would say if you're like, oh, I don't know if I am or not, well, begin with a conversation with the Lord. Begin with a prayer. And and and let's start there. And maybe that's where somebody is today. If you need some more information, Griff, how does if somebody says, Hey, I I really have some more questions about this, how does somebody, how does a student get in touch with you? Do you want, you know, they you want to reach out to Sydney or like is there some way they can email you or something like that?

SPEAKER_05 52:25

Everybody's at in the student ministry has my number. And girls like my wife's available. I know Sydney and Morgan are too. But she also has per se perspectives as well. And then yeah, you just get my number from them.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Okay, awesome. Well, Griff, I appreciate you being here today, man.