Carry The Fire Podcast
Inspiring ordinary people to know God intimately and disciple others courageously.
Carry The Fire Podcast
Breaking Free From Performance w/ Phil Kelley | EP.11
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What happens when success, ministry, and performance replace intimacy with God?
In this episode, Jesse sits down with Phil Kelley for a raw and honest conversation about addiction, identity, confession, and surrender. Phil shares his journey from early ministry success and public platforms to private struggle and how God met him with mercy in the middle of it all.
This episode explores the pressure to perform, the fear of being exposed, the power of confession, and the freedom that comes from surrendering control. It’s a story of discovering that God’s love isn’t earned and that healing often comes through community and honesty.
If you’re tired of striving, hiding, or trying to be “good enough,” this conversation is for you. There is hope, freedom, and grace in the light.
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Hey everyone, welcome to Carry the Fire. I'm Jesse Allen and I'm Hey guys, I'm Philip Kelly. You're doing a job to just jump in and jump the gun, brother. But we really are excited to be here today. We're gonna have fun. It's gonna be funny and fun and insightful. And so I'm excited for this time, Phil. Uh, how did we meet? Jump in, tell us.
SPEAKER_04I mean, we met when a friend of mine hijacked me, kidnapped me, took me to your parents' uh ministry there at Morningstar uh for uh a few uh say a few weeks of R. What's R R strategic rest and relaxation? Um, and uh and you came in and met with me, and um, this was probably two and a half years ago. Yeah, two and a half years ago for sure. And I was like, who's this young whippersnapper who has all this all this wisdom and knowledge? It must not be from his parents because I know them, and uh, it must be from Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Oh, brother.
SPEAKER_04Hope your parents are watching.
SPEAKER_02And then we reconnect.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so we reconnected because that same friend kidnapped me, and I was doing an event in Garden City, Kansas, and I was having him babysit me, honestly. And we'll get probably get to that story here a bit. He was babysitting me in Garden City, Kansas in a hotel room. And at 5:15 in the morning, I thought that he was listening to a podcast. And I'm like, dude, turn your phone and computer off. This is rude. 4 a.m. Get up. Yeah, and uh, and then I realized I was like, wait a second, this guy who's talking on this podcast is really good. And so then I in my underwear skipping on over, and I'm like, bro, what are you doing? And I realized that it wasn't a podcast, it was a Zoom call with a bunch of other guys, and it was you who was not on a podcast, but you were just speaking life into these men. And I leaned my head over the laptop, and you recognized me, and our friend recognized, he introduced me, and I was like, hey, and you were like, Well, you're gonna be on our next uh 10-day call. So this is Giddy up, and I'm like, Giddy up, and the Lord has a crazy way of introducing it. And it has been a life, literally a life-changing experience. The Lord, it's awesome.
SPEAKER_02I've loved getting to know a little bit of your story and your journey. And one of my favorite things in the Bible is Revelation 12, and it talks about how we overcome the enemy and the accuser by the blood of the Lamb. But the second one's so powerful, it says by the word of our testimony, and that we don't love our lives so much as to shrink from death. And so, what I'm really excited about today is to lean into the testimony of Phil Kelly because God's really been faithful in your life. And one of our favorite phrases is there's tons of mercy in our mixture. Would that be fair to say that you've experienced the mercy of God in abundant, consistent ways, kind of in the mixture of what life has looked like for you?
SPEAKER_04There is mercy in the mixture, you know. And yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm a living testament of that. And I'm still in process. That's the thing I love about the Lord, is like we're we've never arrived. We're still in process, and there's always things for us to to learn and to become more like him. Uh sometimes we take one step forward and 17 steps right, and you know, it's that that journey. But yeah, he's he's been so faithful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I think that relationally faithful, like he brings certain people into my life, like yourself and others in your network that um are models of what that mercy in the mixture looks like.
SPEAKER_02Makes me think a little bit about like uh provision. And like so much of provision, you know, we think it's like finances at times, or we think it's these things that we need to kind of temporarily get us going or continuing on. And so much of the provision that God gives us is in relationship with people, isn't it? That's a good word. Yeah, he brings people into our path that we need in specific moments, and it's that person that almost represents God to us so that they can lead us to him. Exactly. And I know that's been a powerful part of your journey in some pretty significant ways. And so take us back to where it began. 16 years old, well, probably even before then, a little bit.
SPEAKER_04I was one of 13 billion little sperm cells, Jason. And I made it. I'm persistent. Yeah, I'm gonna go get her.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04And uh way, way back November 15th, 1981. I just turned 44 years young. Wow. And uh no, I grew up in Spring Hill, Kansas. This is gonna be the most edited podcast you've ever done. It's good.
SPEAKER_03This guy is a dinner.
SPEAKER_04Um, no, but uh, but yeah, so grew up in Spring Hill, Kansas, um, just south of Kansas City. Uh-huh. Small town. How big is Hillsboro about? 3,000. Yeah. Hillsboro's 3,000. 3,000 people. Okay, so we had 2,500 when we were in the house. Wow. Yeah. Same kind of city. You guys are huge.
SPEAKER_02We're growing metropolis.
SPEAKER_04Booming. Yeah. And so, I mean, grew up, dad was the town drunk. Super embarrassing as a kid. Like, he's getting kicked out of t-ball games because he's peeing in left field. Wow. Kind of, you know, and it was always getting escorted out of functions. Uh, he almost dropped my nephew at my basketball game from the bleachers, and that was the last time he had ever held him because he was uh, you know, bumbling down the steps. So it was super embarrassing as a kid. So for me, growing up, I just determined that I was going to be perfect on the field, in the classroom, in the community, because I could control that. Like I didn't realize it back then that's what I was doing, but now that's what I was doing. And lots of counselors have confirmed that that's a kind of a standard practice for a child of an alcoholic because I could control the controllables. I couldn't control him in the stand. I couldn't control him at home. So parents divorced when I was in the first grade at seven years old. And you know, uh part of that story is one of abuse uh sexually, you know, with my dad. And that's something that I'm still processing now with a counselor trying to navigate because I've just like closed that door for so many years and just produced instead of faced. Like I wanted to be so as a kid, I just decided I was gonna be the best athlete. I was gonna be the best baseball player, basketball player, football player. Um, I was all-state baseball and basketball and football and junior PGA in golf. I taught myself how to play golf in in the eighth grade and you know, started winning tournaments. And um, so that mindset carried such significance because I felt that the more that I can produce the more I'm loved. Wow. By my dad. The better I am on the field, the more out of boys I get. And that worked until it didn't. So when I was 16 years old, there was a cute girl who wouldn't date me unless I went to church with her. Can I get an amen? Yeah. So I did, obviously. And I became a Christian on a Saturday. The pastor got up, preached the gospel. I responded. Kevin Seitzer, who used to play baseball for the King City Royals, actually led me to Christ. I landed in his small group. And that was on a Saturday. On Sunday, that same senior pastor brings me up in front of about a thousand people in the congregation and says, Hey, hey, Phil, come up here. I want you to share your testimony. And I was like, What's a testimony? I thought it was like a courtroom setting. Like that's the only time I'd ever heard that phrase. He's like, No, just share your story. You have influence, you know, you're an athlete. I was like, okay, sure. And so I got up and I shared, and I just felt God move through me in that capacity. So much so that that same pastor sends me on kind of a short circuit of speaking and preaching and doing leadership conferences on his behalf all over the Midwest. So I'm a high school kid. I've got to show you some flyers of Phil Kelly, literally, because I was a baseball player and I'm kneeling on home plate, and there's this this this brochure says, Phil Kelly, bringing Christ home to the youth of America. Like home home base, so corny. But uh, yeah, so that's what I did. I I was I was super involved in athletics. Um, but then on the fast track of speaking and preaching, and you know, went to Liberty University on a full ride baseball scholarship. Uh, quit the team my freshman year because I wanted to go be a pastor. I thought I was gonna be a youth pastor, and then I became a senior pastor when I was 19. When you're 19 years old. So I'd been a Christian for two and a half years, and now all of a sudden I'm a senior pastor of a church. Wow. And so I would tell the congregation jokingly, but I I was serious. I'm like, guys, I'm learning this on Saturday night and then preaching it authoritatively on Sunday morning. And you know, ha ha ha ha. I'm like, no, no, no, really.
SPEAKER_02So from 16 to 19, just to kind of interject for a moment, were you discipled in the ability to preach, or were you discipled in the ability to know God?
SPEAKER_04Oh God. Uh knowing God was not even second place. It was way it was on communication, on preaching, on how to do things right from the stage, how to look good. I even had a seminary professor who said, Gentlemen, we have to keep up the ministerial mystique. It's like basically don't let the congregation know that you ever have any problems. And I'm over here writing this stuff down like this. Okay, alright. Terrible advice. Right? But that's that was my world of look good, feel bad, you'll learn it when you need to.
SPEAKER_02Sounds like uh cleaning up the outside of the cup. Totally. I'm not dealing with the inside of it. Yeah. And so that continued for years.
SPEAKER_04Oh, years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I mean, being discipled, I never had time in my mind. Because like I would read the word, let's say, and give it to people. Read, give, read, give, read, give. Never once, well, I mean, seldom would I read it and then put it on my heart, and then out of the overflow. I tried, I really did try, and even to this day, I am trying to get out of that trap of just listening or reading and then just give, give, give. But it's been so ingrained in me that it's it is a it's it's hard to do.
SPEAKER_02So you're 19 years old now, you're a senior pastor, you've been doing it for three years, you're getting a lot of notoriety, a lot of attaboys feeding this thing that had been building since you were a little kid of trying to be perfect to win love. Not getting it. Yeah. And it's not in sports. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04It's in what looks like God. Well, and so I take that same philosophy that I had with my dad of performance equals affection. And I just transmitted that into my relationship with my Heavenly Father. The more I do for you, God, the more I'm gonna be loved by you. So the bigger is gonna be the better. So I need to have a bigger stage, a bigger platform, a bigger this, a bigger that. And um, it just created a lot of vacancies in my soul that I'm starting now at 44 to just unravel and unwind and reset. But yeah, I mean, I so I at Liberty, so Jerry Falwell founded Liberty University in Virginia, you know, and and he kind of took me under his wing as a because he loved me coming to the university to play baseball. Like he would bring me up in front of the entire student body and be like, hey, this is Phil Kelly.
SPEAKER_03He used to work out with the Kansas City Royals, his batting practice partners were Johnny Damon, Jermaine Dye, Mike Sweeney. He's gonna help us go to the College World Series, you know. Let's all so this this is a lot of pressure, right?
SPEAKER_04So I asked him permission to quit the team to go into the ministry. And at that moment, he and I just kind of developed this like grandfather-grandson kind of relationship. So for three years of undergrad, as I'm speaking at this church and preaching and living there in the church parsonage, which is a double wide trailer in the back. True. Awesome, great stories. Um, he taught me how to do baptisms, how to do a funeral, how to do a wedding, how to do a budget, how to do communion, like all the things like that you would typically learn in other settings, whether seminary or at your local church. Like I just didn't know. And so he taught me, and I remember one day when I was 22 years old, getting ready to graduate, I set up a meeting with him and I said, Hey, I don't know who's gonna take over the reins of the university one day after you pass. Uh but I think I can do it. And he was like, What? He's like, Yeah. Uh I said, you know, you're not getting any healthier, because he wasn't, and you're not getting any younger. But I've been around you long enough to know that I think that if I if I hang around you a little bit more, I can catch your vision and be your special assistant. So how about you, you know, hire me? I'll be a fly on the wall, I'll carry your bags, I'll do whatever. Um, and then when you're ready, you can hand the responsibilities of this, you know, the largest Christian university in the world over to me. And he's he sits back and he's like, Phil? Call me Philly. He's like, Philly, in 50 years, no one's had the balls to ask for that. He's like, but for you, we'll do it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_04And I'm like, really?
SPEAKER_02My dad always told me you don't have because you don't ask.
SPEAKER_04All you need is 10 seconds of courage, man. Wow. And so I did, and it was a phenomenal ride where we traveled crisscross the country together every day and wow, got to see leadership at a level that um I'm very, very grateful to have. So, but that was, you know, 22, 23, 24 years old. Wow.
SPEAKER_02And so through this journey of seeking affection by performing, when did it hit that performance isn't ever going to equate to getting to experience the love that your soul was aching to encounter?
SPEAKER_04It wasn't like a one-time epiphany, but it was a gradual kick in the nuts. Sorry. It's you, you're here. I've lived in a locker room for all my life. So, but yeah, it's just a grad like where the Lord's discipline is like, nope, you didn't get it. I'm gonna bring this more. I'm gonna, and so for me, like I pre the first funeral that I preached was my dad's. Wow. I was 20. Wow, and he was 52, and he died of alcoholism. And I swore I would never, never, never be like my dad. I swore I would never be like him. You know, he in essence like died of suicide because of this thing that they said, you cannot do this, and he was just like, Well, watch me. Wow. So I swore I never would. And I did until I was 33 years old, and stress was through the max.
SPEAKER_02Um what were you doing at this point?
SPEAKER_04So, okay, yeah. So I was the team chaplain for the Kansas City Chiefs. Uh-huh. Um, talk about like you keep on getting promoted, promoted, promoted, and you're not ready for it. And I felt like a duck on a pond. So I've been the team chaplain for a few years, and um my wife at the time was going through some medical complications. We have two daughters, Caroline and Madeline. Caroline is now in college in New York City, and Maddie is in a junior in high school. But I was going through a lot of stress, and I just found a solace in alcohol, the thing that I swore I never would do. But once I started, I was like, wait a second, wow. It wasn't a drinking problem for me, it was a drinking solution because it solved immediately all of the stress and the pressures of that day or of that season. And so I got into this habit of every night before bed drinking. But I felt like I couldn't talk to anybody, or else I'm gonna get fired, you know? And it was this trap of performance. I had to be perfect. I couldn't tell, I didn't want to let anybody in because for all my life, for 33 years, I had told everybody that this wasn't me. I'm never gonna, I'm never, never, never gonna be like my dad. So then I felt the shame, the guilt, the embarrassment of being like him. And finally, that lasted for about a year. And in 2017, I went to a treatment center in Nashville, Tennessee for 45 days. Um and it was an experiential treatment center where every every day was something new. Like we would, you know, like the blindfold trust thing and you know, all the all the things that you see. But but for me, it was so it was such what I needed. It was a reset. And so then I come back home and talk to the chiefs and talk to my boss and um Clark Hunt and Andy Reid and a few others, and they were like, hey, you know, you you can have your role back, but my boss was like, Hey, I would be naive to think that you're the only chaplain going through something who you feel like you can't talk to anybody else, or else you're gonna get fired. So instead of helping just one team, how about you help all the teams? Another promotion, and yeah, and you can be kind of coach to these chaplains. I'm like, wait, I'm not getting fired. He's like, No, man, you're getting promoted because you got street cred. I'm like, oh my goodness, right? And so again, like God's favor and mercy, but underneath, I'm thinking, I'm not ready for this, right? And so it's a constant push and pull of learning because I have to, because you get thrown into the deep end, you're like, well, you gotta swim. So you just figure it out. But creating a lot of those bad discipleship habits along the way. And so the sobriety lasted for how long? So that lasted for about a year and a half in 2017, 2018, early 2019. Then unfortunately, went through a divorce in 2019, and I started self-medicating again and starting that down that pattern, not as much as it was, but still enough to affect lives and homes and relationships and relationships with my girls and my family, and you know, and going through a process of one step forward, three steps back, five steps, you know, it's just kind of it's just it it got to be where it was unmanageable. And so in um April, well actually in March, but in April of this year of 2025, I checked myself back into a place called Valley Hope in Atchison, Kansas. And um, you know, I told all the clients that I'd been working with, because I was doing a lot of executive coaching at the time and I still do, and work with teams and executives and such. And I just told them where I was going, why I was going, and why I can't be on a Zoom call for the next 30 days, or you know, and they were all super supportive, but that revolutionized again in a fresh way that change. And so that then led like leave there, and I was going on a business trip to do some coaching and speaking in Garden City.
SPEAKER_02And so that's how full circle you and I meet again. Phil, it seems like one of the lies that people often would believe is that if I confess, and it's what you're talking about in your own story, but if I confess my sin in secret openly, what ends up happening is I'll probably be shamed publicly. And that's some of what you're talking about, right? Yeah, and so it's so interesting because even little bits and pieces that you're sprinkling about is like when you almost had to, you were forced to share publicly the sin that you were dealing with secretly. Like people seemingly were a lot of them at least, maybe not all of them, I'm sure there's a gamut of. Stories, but understanding, compassionate, gracious, and patient. And so, has that been some of your experiences? Is like being surprised by my confession of secret sin. I thought you were gonna shame me. And in many ways, it was almost like you hugged me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly. And I and I still wrestle with that. Like I still um try to not share. And that's a block. That's a block from the enemy. That's a block from my own past and trauma. But yeah, I definitely felt like if I shared, I was like, I told all these stories in my head of scenarios. If I do share, oh, I they're going to just, you know, you know, rake me over the coals and they're gonna do this and they're gonna do that. And and that was never the case. It was the complete opposite. And so one of the phrases that I thought that I forget where I heard it or somebody told me, but give yourself the grace that you would give to somebody else if they came to you with that very same struggle. Because if you came to me and said, hey, Phil, this is what's been going on, I'd be like, Oh man, dude, I love you. Thank you for being vulnerable enough to share with me. Let's work on this together. Yeah. Like not even an ounce of shame. But for me, I think if I tell Jesse, he's gonna, and that's nothing with you or anybody else. That's all the the conditioning that I have in my head.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's one of the primary schemes of Satan to keep us from entering into the very um, like the very thing that God's given to us to experience freedom, which is like living in the light. It's confession. It's it's so powerful, isn't it, in our life? Yeah, I I think so. Yeah. There's somebody to do more of it. Yeah, for sure. I mean, we all do. It's bringing into light what's hidden in darkness, and there's so much power in that place that God brings about freedom. If somebody was in a similar situation as you, maybe it's with alcohol, maybe it's with something else, and they're kind of in this process right now where it's like there's a lot of pressure to feel like that they need to continue to perform, yet they're crumbling with anxiety, stress that's leading to all these other things of addiction. What kind of advice would you give to them if they're listening right now?
SPEAKER_04I would say beyond the advice, I would just say that there is hope. There's extraordinary amounts of hope. And why? Because we have a savior who understands all of our temptations.
SPEAKER_02Where do we see that? Do you remember? Yeah, Hebrews. Yeah, it's unbelievable.
SPEAKER_04We have a high priest who is intimately acquainted with all of our ways, and yet he sins not. He is compassionate, he is a compassionate high priest. And so understanding that, we have somebody who has defeated death, hell, and the grave and knows the way out. And he's not looking at us with this negative uh I'm gonna beat you over the head with the bot. No, he he welcomes us like this. Yeah. And so interestingly enough, I'm remarried now, and my wife is getting ready to have our little girl in a month.
SPEAKER_02Wow, it's amazing, Phil.
SPEAKER_04And her middle name is Hope after Valet Hope, the place that I went um, you know, almost nine months ago. Yeah. And I would just give them hope, if they're watching this, to say, hey, there is a way out. And you don't have to struggle alone because you're not alone. And there's an entire community of men and women who have found the solution. Where I thought that alcohol was the solution to my problems. It wasn't, it was a temporary facade, it was a quick fix to a heart problem. And so now I would encourage them to find a community of folks like in Carry the Fire, where they love you for where you are, regardless, and love you so much not to keep you there.
SPEAKER_02So good. One of my favorite phrases I've kind of stumbled upon recently is that if you think that yourself or somebody else needs to be farther along than they are, no matter how far they get, it will never be far enough. And so it's this thing of having hope for the future of where God's taking you while also in some ways, like living just content with the reality of where you're at, which sounds really strange in this instance, but like you are where you are. Yeah. And so, how do you embrace where you are and let other people come and embrace you where you're you are as well? That's a huge deal. And part of this process, it seems like a little bit, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about this, is it is really hard often to forgive people that have deeply wounded us, where it's really personal to us. Um, but what I heard you say earlier is sometimes the hardest person to forgive isn't others that have wounded us, it's ourselves when our stupid mistakes have wounded others. Has that been true for you as like the hardest person to forgive? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I I'm even saying this right now, yeah, even in real time. I mean, I'm still processing and thinking, like, oh man, what are you what are you thinking? What are you doing? And I'm not giving myself the same compassion that I would give to somebody else. So it's very difficult of forgiving, of acknowledging, of accepting, of coming to terms. Because in my mind, I think, you know better. You know better than to do this, than to, you know, you have all the tools and all the resources and all the sponsors and all the AA groups and all of the carry the firemen and all the, you know, you you have it, everything at your so why? Right? And so I tell myself, I should do better, but that falls into the doing trap and not the being presence.
SPEAKER_02And so teach me, Master Jesse. Well, I was thinking of the phrase behavior modification versus spiritual transformation. Yeah. And so much of what we're lot taught in religion is, you know, you need to be better for God. You know, fix your issue. Because if you fix your issue, it's kind of what you were underneath the guise of. Yeah. If I fix my issue and I can perform well, then I can receive affection and I can be loved. And I think intellectually, those of us, especially in the church, we would actually know intellectually that's not true. It's not what the gospel preaches. You know, his love is unconditional, but there's some sort of block in my heart from actually believing it, from believing that I don't need to be better so that I can be loved more. Yeah, I'm loved as much today as I could ever be, because his love for me really is unconditional to me.
SPEAKER_04Totally.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing. But that's a revelation in your heart when you realize that on your worst day and on your best day, God really is the same. The essence of who he is is love. And the issue isn't his love for you. The real issue is us coming into and being near, close to that love that he has for us and then allowing it over time. I wish it came in a moment, yeah, but over time, little by little, that actually freeing us and setting us free and then transforming us, not by the acts of the flesh, not by the behavior of being better, but by yielding to and surrendering to the Spirit of God. And so I'd love to hear this from you. If performance isn't what equates to affection, experiencing affection, and particularly with God, if it's not performance, what is it that a person needs in order to experience the affection that God has for them? If they're gonna set aside performance, I think that the what do they replace it with? Surrender. Yeah. So glad you said that, really. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Did I win? Yeah. Did I perform well today? No, I think that yeah, surrender.
SPEAKER_04It's just, it's, it is the oxymoron, it's the paradox of the faith. But you surrender to win, you surrender to gain that affection. And that's all he wants us to do is just lay because he knows we're not achieving, like he knows that even the things that we do achieve. He provides for us, even the places that I get to speak. Well, he set it up for even the relationships that I have. Well, he's the one who orchestrated it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03See, he just says, Hey, just hey, just surrender, buddy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And when did that happen for you? And like practically, what did that look like for you? Because it's a great word. Yeah. It's kind of theoretical. How does it become practical for a person? What did that practically look like for you to choose for a moment to set aside performance? It is very surrender.
SPEAKER_04It's not a one-time, it literally is a minute by minute kind of a thing. Because, you know, like Thor's hammer, like all he has to do is reach out, and then you know, that's like for me in this performance or perfectionism. It can happen like that, where I can be surrender, surrender, surrender. And all of a sudden, I just flash into this mode of like even driving on the way here to this, I'm thinking, okay, I want to make sure I do this and do that. I want to make sure that optics are great, like flashing into that mentality versus okay, then he was like, No, no, no, prepare your heart, pray, let's. So it's it's not a one-time thing. I think it's a one-time like commitment, but it's an hour by hour decision.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it sure is. And I think of Paul's words when he said, take every thought captive and make it obedient to Jesus. Yeah, because we have so many thoughts that revert back to what you're saying. Yeah. You know, I need to perform here, I need to look good. And I even think about Jesus in Matthew 6 when he talks about what brings the father's heart pleasure. And he's like, Hey, all of these guys, they're really trying to look good on the streets. Exactly. You know, they're trying to make fancy long prayers. And honestly, what they want to do is they're not actually trying to impress God, they're trying to impress people.
SPEAKER_04And he says, You have your reward. You have your reward here on earth. And there's so many times where I've just confessed and said, God, I forgive me for being a Pharisee. Forgive me for eloquently doing this, and yet inwardly, it's like I'm a uh what what's the phrase, a whitewash tomb? Yeah, that's a hard word. Gosh, man. Yeah. Uh-huh. And that's hard to that's hard to admit. But like that that's one of the things I love about the the Carry the Fire Minister, like what what you have done in my what God's done through you, you know what I'm saying? But by your leadership, it's it's exposing some of those things that are not what they need to be, and then giving uh a resource and a uh a mirror for what it should be.
SPEAKER_02It's so freeing when you no longer have to source your sense of value from the opinion of people. Like at the the essence of what we're saying is that is I don't have to impress people. The invitation is to surrender and embrace the love of God. And you've been on this journey, I know, just because we walked together, that the love of God was theoretical. You could preach about it in many ways, probably to the moon and back, you know? And so you had been taught how to preach about God, but it's just been these last years. What you've told me is you've gone on a real journey of intimately knowing the presence of God. And it seems like actually the simplicity of experiencing freedom is learning to abide in his presence. Absolutely. What's that been like for you? Freeing, terrifying, humbling. Freeing, terrifying, humbling, exhilarating.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Has it been exhilarating? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's just it's it's it's all the it's it's it's the mixture. Uh-huh. All the things. You know, when when you're talking about like finding your source of identity through other people and what you do, it's you know, my wife is pregnant, and we look at the we look at the pictures and we look at, you know, how Isabella Hope is coming along, and she's nourished by the umbilical cord. It's very real, it's a phenomenal miracle. For me, I felt like for all of my life I've had that umbilical cord out. And I'm like, hey, will you give me my value? Will you give me my value? Will you show me your like, and and even now, like I find myself gaining value or sourcing my identity through things that are not of God? And he's coming along saying, Hey, come on, come on, I got you. Wow, I'm gonna tell you who you are, I'm gonna show you who you are, I'm gonna reveal who you are in a way that will blow your mind if you let me.
SPEAKER_02So, how does a person go from knowing how to talk about God and saying, you know, the very thing I'm saying to others so confidently? If I'm being really honest, I don't actually intimately experience myself. Yeah. How do they transition from just talking about to personally experiencing?
SPEAKER_04I think that it's one of the things where it's easier to be caught than taught to be around other people, other people who you see, okay, that's what it looks like. I love the phrase by Ralph Walter Emerson. He says, a mind that's once stretched by a new idea can never regain its original dimensions.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_04So once you see it, you're like, okay, well, wow. Now I see what it's supposed to look like. You know, so that's honestly that's why Care of the Fire has been so much to me because now I see, okay, this is what it's supposed to look like. When you have a seven-year-old man and a young whippersnapper like yourself, who's you know, in his early teens. Um you're in the third grade and have a beard. Um blessed. But I blessed. But I look and I see, like, wow, okay, this is what it looks like. This is how to respond under pressure. This is what it looks like to resolve conflict. This is what it looks like to have an intimate, vibrant relationship with the Lord. And now, if I hang around you guys long enough, I can pick something up and then do the things that you tell me to do. So that's another aspect of surrender, like surrendering my pride, because you know, my pride was like, well, I have you know, master's degree in theolog theology theologically. Theologically. That's a good one. Communication. Um, and I've preached been preaching since I was 16. So, you know, in my mind, I'm like, well, I should know this. Uh-huh. And the more that I knew, the less that I knew. Takes a lot of humility. I'm unlearning so much right now. And the Lord is taking me down the journey. And I think that I think that one day I'm gonna look at this generational curse of addiction because that's what it is. It's an entire family, you know, on my dad's side, they're all addicted or dead because of it. Nine brothers and sisters that my dad had. I mean, they're all so that is what I'm up against. I think that one day I'm going to look back and say, I'm so grateful for that thorn in the flesh. I'm not there yet. I'm like, God, why why do I have to, you know, go through that? Like, why do I have to struggle? But I know that it's going to produce a harvest. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So good. What do you think is the redemptive quality of addiction?
SPEAKER_04Freedom. Freedom.
SPEAKER_02Freedom.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, people who have been through the chains, the ringer, the the bondage of addiction, and now they're free. They know freedom in a way that you cannot teach and you can't coach. It's in their bones. Wow. And that's why I love going to AA meetings, celebrate recovery meetings, other recovery meetings. Like I love hearing their stories of the worst of the worst, and now they're experiencing all the promises that like and if they can do that, then I might just be able to do that too.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02One that I would say that I think of with addiction would be hunger. You know, God producing inside of you kind of an insatiable hunger for his presence. Because somebody who's addicted, they really do know how like a substance, which the presence of God is not theoretical. It is a it's a substance, it's a spirit, it's meant to be tasted, it's meant to be touched, it's yeah, it's meant to fill us, it's meant to flow through us. Those aren't metaphorical words. That's meant to be the experience we have. And the kingdom of God really does belong to those who hunger and thirst after it. It's those who take it with force or with violence or apprehend it with passion. And so I know for you, I I see that in you. You know, I see a man whose addiction is being restored, it's being redeemed, and you're becoming a man who is not content with the applause of man. And suddenly you're becoming hungry for the presence of God. I want to hit on one more thing before we end and we pray. But man, this thing of of learning the pleasure of hiddenness and resisting the temptation of the devil to exalt you before the time that God has you is a really big deal in scripture. And so John 7, Jesus' brothers come to him and they say him, like, leave this small place and go to the bigger place so that more people can see what you're doing. Because he said they say the exact phrase, no one who wants to be a public figure ever acts in secret. And they didn't understand Jesus, he had no interest for fame. All he had interest for was being close to and obedient to the Father. And as a result, even in like uh the wilderness, when the devil came and tempted him, if you are the Son of God, prove to me sonship, move in power, impress me. And Jesus just always at the forefront of his mind was I'm going to resist the pull of premature exaltation. Because if I get it, for a moment it's gonna feel really good, but for a lifetime, it's gonna destroy me and be my demise. And so are you learning this lesson of experiencing pleasure in God's presence in the place of hiddenness versus trying to get like instant hits of that pleasure and people's presence in the public?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. It it is a joy to walk down this journey because you realize that it was all mostly pride. And it's just bowing the pride down every single day to recognize that I was I would say in the core of that, in the height of um that that season of my life. It's sort of like um prostituting the gospel. You are, yeah, that's it, right there. I mean, I was trying to think of a better way to phrase it, but that's it. And it's like you're using the gospel for your own good. And you look at it, you're like, that's disgusting. Like that's but then but then people like yourself and others who've come into my life are like, well, yeah, well, what else would you have done as a kid who's on that stage, who's doesn't have any foundational discipleship? Naturally, you would do that, and you would think that because I'm doing all these things for you, God, then obviously I'm loved by you. But it's it's sort of the the revelation of Matthew 7 of like, depart from me, I never knew you. But we did this and we exercised this demon, and we did this, and we spoke here, and we did depart from me.
SPEAKER_02It's about knowing me intimately.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Like I don't I don't even know your name. You're using me. And that's I think that as ministry leaders, I think that there is a unfortunate um chasm of leaders who have fallen or in the middle of falling because of that. And then it's not just them who fall, it's their entire following because they've created this superficial uh following or followership who are doing the very same thing that they were. And so it's sad, right? Yeah, it's really sad. And I haven't I haven't figured it out yet, but I at least know where not to go and what not to do.
SPEAKER_02And it takes a lot of humility to confess.
SPEAKER_04I'm the most humble that you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is. You're the most humble takes. It's a lot of humility though for a person to say that I'm using you. Yeah. And I'm wanting to transition to this. Yeah. I'm surrendering to you. Yeah. And I feel like that's the invitation to kind of end with is if we're using him, if you're using something else to try to replace what he wants to satisfy. Yeah. It feels like the invitation is just so simple, but can be so powerful is today's surrender. And so I want you to close us in prayer. I really want to say this. I mean this, like I'm so proud of you. Like one thing I'm so proud about, and I'm always struck by you is you've been so successful in the world of Christianity, not just in the world, in the world of Christianity. And you've remained like a little boy. That's my favorite quote that you had. Still recognize just this one thing. Yeah. I'm still just a little boy. I'm a little kid in my heart. And you'll actually never graduate out of that. And so I think there's a lot of people that can resonate with that. Like I've grown in stature, maturity, and success, but my heart, it just so desperately needs affirmation. Yeah. And you're not going to graduate out of needing affirmation. So either you're going to use the gospel to get affirmed by people, or you're going to surrender to the gospel and get affirmed by daddy. Come on. And so that's what I want you to pray as we close off for the people that are listening as they'd experience in a real way what you're starting and touching to experience in your own life, that dad is very pleased with you. He treasures you, and you're a precious jewel in his heart. Wow.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, buddy. Yeah. And that's it, I won't want to affirm you. I mean, just the wisdom and the persistence and the maturity that you have of not just leading leaders, but you have a skill and a gift that is an anointing for this generation to raise up kings. I receive it, Phil. Yeah. Thanks. And uh yeah, that means the world. You mean the world to me. So thanks, brother. Heavenly Father, our daddy, we do love you. We thank you for your grace and your goodness. We thank you for multitudes of grace and mercy. And Father, I pray that whoever is watching this, whoever listens to this, would know that they are loved with an unfathomable kind of love. That they don't have to do. They're not human doings, they're human beings. And it's not about what they do, it's about who they are, and it's about who they are in you. And whatever they're going through, whatever they're struggling with, whatever vice that they have, I pray that they would surrender to you and then join a community, whether it's a community like Carry the Fire, whether it's a community in their local church, whether it's a community um in recovery support groups, whatever that is, but to be vulnerable and honest and to understand that they are on the journey and they're never gonna graduate. But the first step is the hardest. Asking for help, acknowledging that they need to surrender and then making a plan of action. So, Father, I'm so grateful for this ministry. I'm thankful for Jesse. I'm thankful for Carrie the Fire. I'm thankful for all that you have done and all that you are doing. And we pray this in Jesus' name.
unknownAmen.
SPEAKER_02Amen. Thank you guys so much for joining us. If it touched you and this was powerful for you, leave a comment, subscribe, um, touch bass with us if you want prayer. Bless you guys today.