What if Understanding Your Patterns Isn't Enough To Change Them? With Stefanos Sifandos

What if understanding your patterns isn’t actually enough to change them?

We can spend years becoming more self-aware, understanding our childhood, recognising our triggers and doing the inner work, yet still find ourselves repeating some of the same patterns.

In this episode of Inside Out Connections, I sit down with relationship educator, author and speaker Stefanos Sifandos to explore why awareness is only one part of creating lasting change.

We talk about how our childhood experiences shape the way we relate as adults, attachment styles, people pleasing, the father wound and why we can unconsciously be drawn to relationships that feel familiar, even when those patterns may not be healthy for us.

Stefanos also shares openly about his own childhood, becoming a father and the lessons his closest relationships continue to teach him. We explore conflict and repair in relationships, why intimacy requires ongoing effort, forgiveness when a parent may never acknowledge the hurt and the importance of moving from simply understanding our patterns to actually doing something differently.

We also have a fascinating conversation about raising emotionally healthy young men, the importance of healthy male mentors and why boys need both emotional attunement and strong guardrails as they move towards adulthood.

IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE:

• Why self-awareness alone doesn’t always create change
• How childhood experiences shape our adult relationships
• Attachment styles and the patterns we carry into relationships
• The father wound and how it can influence the partners we choose
• People pleasing and losing ourselves in the needs of others
• Why conflict isn’t necessarily a sign that a relationship is failing
• Emotional safety, intimacy and relational repair
• Forgiveness when a parent never apologises
• Raising emotionally healthy young men
• Why healthy male mentors matter
• The willingness to sit with discomfort as a pathway to growth and freedom

WHERE TO FIND STEFANOS

Website:
https://stefanossifandos.com/

Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/stefanossifandos/

Book — Tuned In and Turned On:
https://tunedinandturnedonbook.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Welcome to Inside Out Connections, where we explore the link between your skin, your gut, emotional health, and your deeper sense of self. I'm your host, Tracy Ann, a wellness coach exploring what it really means to reconnect from the inside out. Many of us reach midlife and begin reflecting on the experiences that shaped us. We start to notice patterns in our relationships, the stories we've carried about ourselves, and the ways our childhood continues to influence how we show up in the world today. My guest today is Stefanos Savandos, a relationship educator, author, and speaker, whose work explores relationships, attachment, emotional well-being, intimacy, personal growth, and human behavior. For more than two decades, Stefanos has worked with individuals and couples around the world, helping them understand the deeper patterns that shape the way they connect with themselves and others. Today we're exploring relationship patterns, emotional safety, the father wound, self-reconnection, raising emotionally healthy young men, and what it takes to break the cycle that no longer serve us. Stefanos, welcome to the show today. I'm so excited to talk all things relationships with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

Super happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

For those who may not be familiar with your work, tell us a little bit about your background and what led you into this space.

SPEAKER_05 1:39

When I'm ever asked that question, I feel it's such a simple yet complex question. I answer it a little bit differently depending on the day. Yeah. Is it different every time? A little bit. I mean Yes, and the the fundamentals are that I have moved into the personal transformation industry, if you like, human performance, human potential space, because I'm just deeply fascinated by people. I'm fascinated by the way we relate to things that matter to us, to painful experiences, to our dreams and our visions, to people, to ourselves. Um, it's very fascinating to me. And I'm very inspired by how we can evolve that. And where that comes from, if you sort of look at my background, is yes, I moved into studying this in a formal way: psychology, developmental psych, behavioral science, trauma, the nervous system, human optimization, mindset, etc. Like all those areas, and continue to study, of course. But what really drove that is the experiences, the early childhood experiences I had, which were ones of deficit to everything I just mentioned. It was the opposite of that. There was little connection. There was a very little safety in relating. There was an abundance of violence and volatility and uncertainty, which is the antithesis of healthy, intimate relating and connecting, right? And growing. My mind was under my heart not expanding, but rather contracting because of fear and because of the relational challenges that were being faced as a little kid, right? And so that's the that's the source of it. So I think back to the other question that you asked around does it change? I don't think the the reasons don't change. The way I sort of share it changes a little bit. But ultimately, I just have this very deep passion, inspiration, fascination with how we are as humans, largely because I've just done so much and continue to reflect on my own life experiences. And um coming from that pain and that immense discomfort, I would wonder often surely there's something better. There's something different to this very uncomfortable, very painful experience, very scary experience. For me back then as a kid, it was scary. Those were the words when I could actually verbalize my experience. It was scary, it was very scary and very big and very yuck. You know, I was using very rudimentary, simple languaging, but that's what it was like. And that, and I just and then I would have the contrast of, you know, watching something on television as a kid. And for me, you know, one of my coping strategies, if you like, was getting immersed in the fantasy of television or movies, right? And I would see, you know, quote unquote bad things happening, but I would also see all these good things happening. I thought, well, that's contrast. I didn't I didn't have the distinction of is that real or is it not? And so that contrast was what really got me questioning life. I remember just asking a lot of questions from a very early age. And that has driven part of why I do the work that I do in the world today as well, that curiosity.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

And that was your normal childhood. You know, I had a similar childhood. There were moments of good and moments of lots of bad, but it's amazing how as children we can adapt and, like you said, jump in front of the television, disassociate, immerse yourself into another, right? It's it's part of your survival. But it's interesting, I think, as a 50-year-old woman now, I'm still looking at patterns of behavior from my childhood. You know, I've done lots of work, but it's amazing what can still keep coming up, even as you get older. It's never complete.

SPEAKER_05 5:34

Do we ever stop growing? If we have a heartbeat and a and a and consciousness and awareness about us, do we ever stop growing? I I mean, I was literally having this conversation with myself this morning. Um, I'm 44 years of age. I still consider myself a new father. I'm four and a half years in. And I'm challenged by what that dynamic brings up in me that I have an opportunity to still explore and work on and be better at, you know, and to put some specificity about around that. It's it's how do I tolerate patience and how do I remain calm and not so driven by the need to control a situation and make sure that my daughter has everything in, you know, doing things in the way that I perceive she needs to do, and then not being emotionally affected by that or dysregulated by that. Because it's not her, it's how my nervous system's reacting and being totally. Sometimes I ask myself, oh, I'm still, I'm still haven't nailed this, I still don't have this. But then even the question like, what am I nailing? Like, what am I what am I attempting to be get perfect here? It's yeah, I just don't think we ever stopped growing, you know?

SPEAKER_03 6:46

And no, it's getting it's getting really curious about it, isn't it? And I know having three children myself, they're all a bit older now, but oh whoa, like that was such a ride. And one in particular just had all my buttons going at once. But also he was my greatest teacher and got me to therapy. I took him to therapy thinking, just fix him and I'll be totally fine. And then the therapist turned to me and said, Tell me a bit about your childhood. And I'm like, No, no, no, I'm fine. So uh it's amazing what our children can teach us, right?

SPEAKER_05 7:17

Big time, big time. It's it's it's very it's humbling. It is so humbling and it is so confronting. And again, to just be transparent in an example. Um, there was a rupture this morning with myself and my daughter, and I immediately apologized and repaired, and you know, I was just big in my movement and it scared her, and um, I was frustrated, and I took those frustrations out on her, irrespective of the frustration was largely because of the way she was behaving. It wasn't about it's not about her, it's about me. And again, we immediately repaired and we stayed in bed and um we played and we were telling stories and all that. But because I went in, she woke up during the night and I went in, and mum just stayed in in her bed. I didn't want Athena to go into our room too early to wake up, Mum. I wanted my wife to sleep, right? She's just been a little bit unwell. And so, but the moment Athena went in, even though we repaired, right? And even though I, you know, I I really was very sincere in in sealing that rupture, the first thing she went in, she said, Mummy, mummy, me and daddy had to repair. Daddy repaired with me, but it doesn't mean my feelings still don't hurt.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

What do you Wow, what great language for a four-year-old.

SPEAKER_05 8:33

I I it's in and we, you know, we we do our best. What are you doing with that? I'm I have to I either ignore that and pretend it doesn't exist, or I have to face that and I have to feel the immense discomfort, the shame, the guilt, the sadness, the very big feelings that I'm feeling now, just recalling that, you know, and the call to betterment and the call to greater mastery with myself, and the call to so many things that it's asking of me. That's just a real-time example. So I wasn't horrific in that moment when I was frustrated, but it's how she perceives it that matters more to how I perceive it. And and that this is this to a point around growth, right? Like we're constantly growing, and our closest relationships will be our greatest mirrors and our greatest catalysts.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

Yeah, I love that. That's so true. So, was there a defining moment, Steph, or experience in your own life that inspired you to dedicate your work to relationships and emotional health? Was there just one moment in particular?

SPEAKER_05 9:42

I think it was what I shared earlier around just the accumulation of many significant moments that compounded over time that oriented me towards the path that I'm walking now. I mean, part of that would have been that the pattern that I developed around the codependent pattern that I developed with my mother, the enmeshment that was there, the wanting to be a savior and a hero and a fixer. Um, that pattern very much influenced the work that I do in the world, not so much now, but when I first started, when I was oblivious and ignorant to that. Um that very strong imprint of needing to save people in order for me to be okay. Um, a very selfish imprint. But I don't say that in a derogatory way towards myself or berating myself, more so just speaking to that pattern and how intense it can be and how it drives people that have that pattern to people please and to minimize one's needs and maximize the needs of others and you know what a perfect space or occupation, job, whatever, to be in, than to be a therapist or a coach or whatever, right? So um, I would say it was the accumulation of what I mentioned earlier plus that that really put me on that trajectory.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

And I just want to touch on that people pleasing for a moment because I think that does come out of families where there is trauma. You just become hyper aware, hyper-vigilant, hyper-sensitive to everyone else's moods in the house. You that tiptoeing around, just making sure everything's okay. If it's not, then you do everything you can to try and make it safe and feel right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:20

Of course, of course, yeah, yeah, for sure. I I resonate with what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

So looking back over the last two decades, Steph, has your understanding of relationships changed? And if so, what surprised you the most?

SPEAKER_05 11:38

I think one of those ones that stand out the most are perhaps obvious for some people or very simplistic, but very pertinent for me was that the belief I had, again, largely because of my upbringing, I witnessed immense dysfunction and violence between my parents. And so the moment I was in a relationship as an adult and there was conflict, I would think to myself, oh, well, this relationship isn't for me. This isn't a healthy relationship, this isn't great. So I'd I'd dramatize the conflict, I'd maximize the conflict to have a really good excuse to leave. Or I would shut down, and or I should say, shut down completely and ignore the conflict and let it fester in either way, it would come up anyway. So over time I learned that conflict actually is necessary and healthy, but it's how we do conflict, it's what we make it mean, it's how we repair, and then how we grow from that repair. And that's being a fallacy that was a big myth that was busted for me. I think there's one that probably most people can relate to, especially if you're an avoidant individual, where the moment something gets difficult, you're out, right? You're out the door. Um, where it doesn't need to be like that. You that's a missed growth opportunity. Um, my attachment style is disorganized, so it's a combination of sort of everything, or was, I should say was, right? And so I would have that insecurity, but I would have that avoidance. I would be very confused in relationship. And so I would make that mean, well, that means this relationship isn't for me. And that was just a convenient way of not facing the the richness that was there for me, the change, the potential transformation that was there for me.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Can we touch on attachment styles briefly for those people that don't have an understanding of it?

SPEAKER_05 13:20

Yeah, sure, sure. Anything specifically you'd like to know?

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Well, what what are the attachment styles?

SPEAKER_05 13:26

Yeah, sure. So firstly, we all have the capacity to be secure in our attachment style. And that would be considered the most optimal, say, right? We have avoidant dismissive, um, avoidant fearful and anxious. And so each attachment style, if you like, is characterized by a specific set of characteristics. There's a a decent percentage of the populace that experience secure attachment style growing up, where they have trust in their early childhood relationships, their emotions are attuned to, they're given permission to be themselves, um, they communicate a range of emotions in a safe way and be met with curiosity and compassion and empathy. There's cooperation, there's flexibility in the people, the adults, the primary caregivers' expression and behaviors. And so that child learns to attune to themselves and know and understands that it's safe to be different versions and varieties of me, and I'll still be met with safety. I won't be met with um dismissiveness or abandonment or rejection or mockery or humiliation, right? Um, you know, the anxious attachment style is gonna be a little more sensitive, is gonna struggle communicating needs directly because when they did when they were younger, they weren't met, right, in a very specific way. Maybe their needs were were too big. They were literally told and shown that you're being too much, right? For example, the avoidant dismissive is gonna downplay the importance of relationships, hyper independent to to to a degree that really damages relationships, because relationships are about interdependence. They're about healthy interdependence, relying on each other, working with each other. Whereas an avoidant dismissive is gonna be very far from that, especially if there's tension or conflict or they perceive an imbalance, right? They they can become more vulnerable, um, but only when there's a big crisis, which is very interesting, which is probably what they actually wanted. They wanted not so much a crisis, but they wanted expression and vulnerability and to be seen. But the only time they could actually express that was in a crisis situation growing up. And then the focus wasn't on so much the emotions, it was on surviving, maybe. And so there's this disconnect there between, um, paradoxically, between vulnerability and openness, which is what relationships ask for, and their sense of safety in the relationship. And then there's um there's uh avoidant fearful as well. And so this one here is more dependent on relationships, more needy, very similar to anxious as well.

SPEAKER_06 16:00

Strong aversion to rejection or to the perception of rejection in relationship.

SPEAKER_05 16:06

High anxiety, low self-esteem, particularly in relationships, as a as a result of that, we'll manipulate, we'll compensate. I mean, there's always compensatory strategies taking place whenever we feel disempowered in a relationship. But one thing that I would say with the attachment styles, like any way of seeing self is I just believe, very simply put, we we are moving on a spectrum. We are constantly moving from a disempowered state to an empowered state. And that's across various domains, various expressions, various relationships of our lives. And the goal is to move from disempowerment to empowerment. Now, the way that happens is through the mechanism of transformation and growth and change, but we have to face ourselves in that. So we have to get uncomfortable and the avoidant dismissive, as an example, may have to say, you know what, I'm not gonna check out right now. I'm gonna stay a little longer. I'm gonna be here in the relationship with you. I'm gonna listen to your needs, even though they feel a lot for me and I'm gonna express that. I'm fast tracking it for your steps here, but I'm giving you an example of where they are to where they can actually go to. And but that that's part of moving from being controlled by a pattern, right, or an attachment style and moving out of that disempowered state where we feel like we're just being controlled by our fears to an empowered state where we're now more growth-oriented, where we're actually taking mastery over our lives. And we're simply more empowered to make healthier choices relationally and you know, within our own the own context of our own inner world.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

It's more self-awareness, isn't it? And it sounds like having a good idea what your attachment style is is really important if you're in a relationship.

SPEAKER_05 17:46

Very. For sure, yeah. It's very important to know so many aspects of ourselves. And self-awareness is there's there's layers and levels to self-awareness. And self-awareness is one part of that growth equation. We have to learn to take action. We have to learn to feel big feelings that we haven't felt before. We have to learn how to communicate that. There's so there's so many, we have to learn how to be relational. We have to learn how to listen and attune to others, but we have to learn how to attune to ourselves and our own needs as well. So there's there's a lot that goes into intimate relating and growth and self-awareness, increasing our self-awareness is absolutely part of that process, but it's not the be-all and end all. And why am I mentioning this? Because so many of us mistake self-awareness for an endpoints in our growth journey because we confuse with knowing about the thing to the thing actually changing that we want to change. It doesn't aware self-awareness doesn't change the thing. There's so many other things that need to happen to change the thing, and it's just important to note that.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Yeah, I like that. Action. Yeah. So what are some of the most common relationship patterns that you see repeated over and over again?

SPEAKER_05 19:03

It depends on the nature of the relationship, meaning that is a long-term, even just these two simple distinctions, short-term or long-term, right? Um there can be some distinctions there. However, if we look at common patterns, we look at intimacy dying out or fading out really quick. Physical intimacy. So that could be uh sex, that could be just physical touch, that could be endearing practices and actions that we take for each other, uh saying endearing things. The reason why these die out is is, well, they're meant to, and that's a bit of an unpopular belief, but they're meant to die out, but they're not meant to die out permanently. They're meant to die out so that the relationship finds itself again, that you resettle into the relationship. And the only way to do that is for that honeymoon phase, if you like, to die out. So more of you and more of the other person comes online. Now you've got a more whole version of each other interacting in this relationship. The challenge with that is that most people, most of us, we we put our best foot forward when we enter relationship. And we can't sustain that. We can't sustain this polarized version of ourselves, this thing that we believe the other person wants to see. We just we can't the masks have to come off eventually, and they're meant to. And it's when the mask comes off, if we have self-awareness around that, that's when we do deeper work. That's when we get to move deeper into appreciation and respect for the other person, deeper compassion, a greater understanding for their circumstances, their life experiences, their hurts, their traumas, their patterns. And by the way, there's got to be a hundred percent reciprocity here. That both people have to do this for each other. Otherwise, uh we're just throwing throwing shit on the other hand.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Now, what happens then, Steph? What happens if you've got a uh person that's doing all the work and then a partner that's not doing all the work?

SPEAKER_05 21:14

The relationship, the entity, the third entity. So there's the entity of one person, there's the entity of the other, and there's the third entity that is the relationship, is not being nourished. It's as simple as that. And what will often happen is you're both just going to play out these patterns that you're meant to break. So let me back step a little bit here. The reason why we come together, one of the core reasons we come together in relationship is to heal, is to make whole. Not that we do the healing for the other person, not that we're here to fix the other person. We come together to activate each other's patterns that no longer serve us. Remember what I said about disempowerment to empowerment? Relationships, healthy relationships that choose to be healthy, meaning that you choose to do your inner work, face your demons, face conflict in a healthy way, do things differently to How you've been taught often, right? So in other words, instead of just being defensive or stonewalling, you're actually attuning, you're asking questions, you're listening, you're putting their needs first and your needs at the same time. Wow, what a what a paradoxical comment, like to actually be able to do it. But that's the practice, right? Like you're committed to um growth in the relationship. We come together to heal, to, to outgrow out of patterns that don't serve us anymore. And but we don't know that. We don't have the awareness of that. We just think we come together, and then we think when stuff gets bad. Well, like I said earlier, oh, maybe this relationship isn't for me. I'll just move on to the next maybe that's true. But how much are you leaving on the table by not actually addressing the stuff that's coming up and what it's reflecting in you? And how are you then both communicating that? And maybe six months later, you growth, both grow tremendously, but you both realize, you know what, this relationship isn't for us. But you realize it from a more empowered and enlightened state. And that's what so many of us miss. I miss that so many times in my previous relationships. So many times. Like I said, and I said earlier, you know, I I didn't say this part, but I'll say it now. Like I have more staying power now because my first port of call is is my wife aggravating me? Or and or is this showing me something about me? She may still be aggravating me and she may still be doing something that's aggravating. And I still may ask her and make requests that I want her to change, but I also need to look at what is being aggravated within me? Where's my self-responsibility? Where's my ownership of this? Where's my growth opportunity? And that's a very different question.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Do you find that there's a difference between men and women in doing the work? Like, are women more inclined to do the work than men? I don't like to generalize, but I'm just sort of thinking of a lot of partners, a lot of women that I know and their partners. I feel like a lot of men don't do the work. And maybe that's just my generation.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

I don't think no, I don't think that's completely inaccurate. When we look at the personal development industry and the space of personal development, you you will generally find far more women active in that space, learning, growing, etc. That doesn't mean that aren't men online. And when I say online, I don't mean digitally online. I mean like online in terms of they're they're switched on, they want to grow, they want to change, they they prioritize themselves, they prioritize their growth, they prioritize the things that are important to them, the people, the relationships, etc. It's more than likely less. And there are socio-cultural reasons for that, collective reasons, and probably some individual reasons as well. Olive, I don't think it's an accurate statement to make, hey, there are more women in personal transformation than there are men. To some extent, that's probably true. And there are shifts happening there as well.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Yeah. Well, it's everywhere, isn't it? But I love how you touched on relationships and how they evolve and change, and they're meant to, right? You like you said, that honeymoon stage, and then things start to change definitely when you have children, but then older when you've got children leaving the nest as well, and the focus has been on the children for so long. And when you were talking, I think about that with my husband, how you know you you're not as intimate in terms of having a cuddle here and there, or holding hands, or just doing random acts of kindness, and you can see that sort of start fading away. In actual fact, just about a week ago, I said to my husband, we just have to hug like three times a day or something. We've just got to get it, get hugs in. We've got to just start practicing again, even if it feels awkward. Because if you're not careful, it can just slip away into the abyss. It will slip away. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:41

Yeah, absolutely. It will.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:44

And that's why effort is required. Like anything worth building or creating or sharing in the world or experiencing requires effort and attention. And it's very natural that if you have, in your case, three children and you have careers or you have businesses or you have other family members you're looking after, or yourself, or you may have some health challenges. I'm not I'm not saying that you do, of course, I'm just saying these are stuff that happens in life, your attention's going to be pulled. It's just it's it's natural. You you've you've got other living beings you need to look after as a as a parent, as a as a caregiver. And so it's natural that there's going to be a little less time unless you make it a priority, unless you you prioritize that. My wife and I, we we have uh two afternoons a week, uh, or an afternoon and evening a week, and then an afternoon a week, um, where it's our time together, just her and I. Doesn't sound like much, but with the with the businesses that we have and our family life, it's it's not a lot, it's just but it's necessary at a minimum. If we and if we don't do that, it won't happen. If we don't prioritize that and create structures in our space to make sure our daughter's okay and well looked after, and it just won't happen. Because there's so much.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

It's easy to give up. Yeah. It's easy to give up and not, and sometimes you don't feel like it, but you've got to just rip the band-aid off and we take it for granted sometimes too.

SPEAKER_05 27:07

Yeah, we take for granted the other person being in our lives and supporting us in the way that we've been supported because it's just quote unquote always been there. But if you don't put effort into something, it it l it loses its passion, it it loses its importance. It it in and and it's very easy for it to slip down the ladder of importance in your life. Very easy. That happens. You wake up one day, it's five years later, and you're like, oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Yeah. Yeah. So thinking about relationships and dynamics, the same patterns and dynamics that keep happening, despite people doing a lot of personal work, like what's missing? You know, when you look at people that d do have done a lot of work, have done therapy, have done work on themselves, but there's something missing. Like they keep repeating the same stuff. What do you think is a missing link?

SPEAKER_05 28:05

It's often self-compassion and self-acceptance combined with the the, you know, my teacher calls it the mafia of the mind, the personality or the ego that just takes over, that gets really scared and wants to control everything. And no matter how aware we are of our patterns, it doesn't there is no substitute for walking a different path, taking that action in a different way. And if we allow it to, our egos will take over. They will say, no, don't take that risk, don't ask that person out, don't tell your partner you love them, remember you're angry at them, keep them at a distance. Uh no, don't forgive your mother. That's not going to work, that's not going to be helpful, whatever it may be, right? Whatever the inner story is. And it's very easy to be consumed by that. Um, and it's very dangerous. And so that's really in simple terms, it's that. It's we lack self-compassion and self self-love for each other, for ourselves, sorry, my apologies. And we allow our personality or our ego, the where the the protective parts of us live, where our survival strategies and compensatory strategies live, to run rampant in the world and just control and influence all of our key relationships and the way that we see the world.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:17

I wanted to touch on the father wound.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

What does that term mean to you?

SPEAKER_05 29:26

Slightly different meaning for um those that experience it. It's not a clinical diagnosis, neither is the mother wound, but it's a very lived experience, a very real lived experience. And for most, the father wound is going to be um one's sense of safety within self, within their body, within their home, within the world has been ruptured. There's very little structure. Men and the masculine cannot be trusted. There's an inconsistency and an unavailability associated with that. There's uh an abuse and a violence that's associated with that father wound. I would say that they're some of the key defining characteristics.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

So, how can a relationship with our father influence the way we see ourselves as women, but also in the partners we choose?

SPEAKER_06 30:23

Yeah, it's a very interesting question.

SPEAKER_05 30:26

As I'm a father of a of a young girl, that man's role in a child's life growing in a door in a woman sorry, in a girl's life, growing up to be a woman, how that influences her to make choices about the men and the relationships that she attracts. If we go back to these two very simple points, right? As adults, and Harville Hendrix said this, we will we will attract both consciously and unconsciously what we did and did not receive from our primary caregivers in our adult intimate relationships. And that makes a lot of sense to me. And so often if a little girl experiences that father wound and that really strong disconnection from dad, as an adult, she'll do one of two things. She'll either seek the exact opposite, but again, moving in extremes, like two sides of the same coin, or she'll seek exactly what's really familiar so she can have a redo, disempowerment to empowerment.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:20

Right. And if dad was abusive and if dad was distant and unavailable, she will more than likely choose that kind of man because she thinks that's what she deserves. Because how we treat our daughters and how we treat women in the presence of our daughters, it defines their self-worth as well. So what that means is that if they don't feel worthy enough because they've witnessed that level of abuse or that level of distance, they don't feel worthy enough in the presence of their primary masculine caregiver growing up, they'll take that sense of unworthiness into adult intimate relationships. They'll second guess themselves, doubt themselves. They will minimize their needs and maximize the needs of others so they'll be people pleasers. They'll wear masks, pretend everything's okay when it's not. They'll say yes when they mean no. Um, they will choose men that are very familiar or similar to the man they experienced growing up. Because they want that redo in a more empowered way. They want to be able to say no, they want to be able to share their feelings, they want to be able to say stop. You know, they want to be able to say, give me more of that. Why can't you do this or why can't you be that? But often that's not what happens. They they placate and they they will try to, and this is for any compensatory strategy, they'll try and um force someone else to love them by molding themselves to what they think that man wants or needs. But that's just an endless pit. And you know, I can say the same thing that men would do when they have a mother word as an example.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 32:54

Yeah, it's it's it's very sad. And that's why I said self-awareness is very important, only gets us so far as well, though.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Yeah, I like that. That's my that's a big takeaway for me. Self-awareness, but action. So would you say healing can occur if a parent never changes or acknowledges the hurt?

SPEAKER_05 33:14

A really good question. Yeah, the immediate answer is yes. So it can, can being the operative word. It doesn't mean it will. So it's very helpful. It can be helpful. But ultimately, we will only change for because forgiveness, change, transformation, it's an inside job. We will only forgive, allow transformation to occur if we feel ready to, and if we want to, if we choose to embrace that. I give you an example with my father. Um he never has apologized for the things that he's done. But I have forgiven him, genuinely forgiven him. Genuinely. So we don't need that, but it can go a really long way because being acknowledged and being seen. But let me give you another example, actually, because I don't want to get on my high horse here and be righteous. My mother has apologized for many of the things that she's done. She's far more conscious than my father in that way. And I'll be honest, there are parts of me that have not forgiven her yet. It's not on her. That's on me. Yeah. Now there are some reasons for that that I can justify and you know, it's legitimate. And they are, but the point is she has apologized sincerely and genuinely. But say the same for my brother. There's still parts of me I'm like, nah, I'm not letting that go just yet. I'm gonna be a little stubborn still, you know?

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Yeah, it's okay to hold on to stuff sometimes. And like we discussed earlier in the beginning, it's a processing thing. It's when you're ready. You can't force these things to naturally heal, right?

SPEAKER_05 34:41

Correct. Correct. Yeah. We're just gonna keep showing up to ourselves and each other.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Yeah. So for the dads out there with the knowledge that you have, Steph, what advice would you give to them raising daughters?

SPEAKER_06 34:56

Uh don't do it by yourself, meaning seek other men to be in your presence and learn from other men.

SPEAKER_05 35:06

Be supported, be challenged, be held accountable, specifically by other fathers and lean into your wife more, lean into your partner more. If you're not in a relationship but you you're a father, um uh and when I say lean into your ex-partner more, the mother of your child or your children more, I don't mean rely on them and put the burden of your responsibility and your growth on them. What I mean is be open, be transparent, be vulnerable, be real, be truthful with yourself, with where you're at, with what you can handle, what you feel you can't. Don't let shame override you. But the way you won't let shame override you and fear override you is by being held in a container of other men that are healthy, that will challenge you healthily, that will hold you accountable, that will support you and be an infrastructure in your life where you probably didn't have that growing up from your father. Because part of that fatherwood is not having structure and support and being held and not having that feeling of I am safe in the world because dad's got me, or the energetic of the that that that masculine energetic has me. And so I would say to fathers, like, don't do this alone. Just you're you're you're foolish if you're doing this alone.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Yeah, it's okay to ask for help and have mentors and be vulnerable. I think that's the hard part, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:28

Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

So you and your beautiful wife, Christine, work with couples together. What inspired you to take your work into that space as a partnership?

SPEAKER_05 36:41

Yeah, well, I was doing it before, and Christine was doing a little bit before. I was doing a fair amount of it. Just I just felt quite simply just felt very aligned. We love teaching, sharing, and supporting together. It's one of the ways that we're intimate.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

I remember during COVID, I did, I think, one of your breathwork courses, and I did one of Christine's inner child courses, which I just loved, and I remember it distinctly. It was very powerful stuff. So uh how often are you doing these courses?

SPEAKER_05 37:11

We have another one coming up at the end of the year together. Um, we've been doing this since 2019. It's called Be the Queen. It's really supporting women that uh are wanting to be in a healthier relationship and intimacy with themselves and with men. And so we have one that that coming up at the end of the year in October. These days we're doing it less than what we would like to and less than what we have in the past. And that's largely because of the, you know, I think you can relate to this as a new family dynamic with another child and so forth. But very excited to be able to do that together. In fact, I should tell a lie. About a month ago, we were in in Utah and we we um were guest speakers in this retreat. We taught for a day together, which was beautiful. And it's one of the ways that we experience intimacy with each other. We very much love it. And I think it's just a natural evolution in our relationship for us. It was just a natural step in the most aligned direction.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

So you emphasize that a woman relaxes into a partner when his presence feels safe. Can you elaborate on that?

SPEAKER_05 38:11

If he's if he's emotionally volatile and dysregulated and inconsistent in his behavior and how he deals with difficulty and challenge and conflict, it's going to be very difficult for anyone and very hard for anyone to be able to relax or trust, right? Because trust leads to a relaxing and then or softening in the nervous system, like a more parasympathetic response, where there's a predictability. And I don't mean that in a boring way, I mean a predictability in, oh, I know what to expect from this person. If if things get really difficult, I know that he'll stay in this with me. I know he's not gonna run, he's not gonna be consumed by his patterns or his trauma. He's gonna he's gonna be in this with me. We've got agreements that he can uphold, right? That's really essentially if I was to put more detail and flavor around it, that's what it would look like.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Yeah. So how can couples practice relational repair when both partners' nervous systems are completely dysregulated at the same time?

SPEAKER_05 39:04

Yeah, that's a great question. And often with great difficulty. Um so again, you know, having mediation, having support, whether it be a friend group or a therapist that you both see or a coach or someone that can guide you in real time and expose you to the practice of, hey, you're both dysregulated right now. Let's help you actually get regulated together and individually and have that experience. So that becomes an anchor point, a new version of reality that's possible. But you often need people intervening. We're relational beings. So that's I don't say it for any other reason than we're relational beings and we need each other. And sometimes when we're in it, we cannot see the forest for the trees. And so we need someone that can take a 30,000-foot view and look down and go, hey guys, just position this way just a little bit. Hey, you're about to say that thing. Don't say it. Just hold on a second. Let me just let me help you with this. And that can be super, super supportive.

SPEAKER_03 39:57

Yeah, or one partner in the relationship that has the ability to be able to say, hey, we need to check out for a minute. Let's just revisit this soon, right?

SPEAKER_05 40:06

Based on a set of agreements that you have. And so there's two other parts to this, right? And I'm glad you touched on that. So there's the part of support, there's three parts. There's a part of having support, external support, there's a part of being responsible for your own nervous system and your own patterns and your own growth and your own journey so that you can regulate yourself in times of traditional dysregulation. And then there's agreements. You have to have agreements in place in the relationship when you're both regulated. Say, hey, I know that when we argue, I'm pretty avoidant, because you have to have self-awareness, right? I'm pretty avoidant, I like to run. My promise to you is I'm not gonna run, I'm gonna stay in it. Hey, well, you know, that's cool. Thank you for that, because I'm really insecure. And you know me, I like I get really needy, I need to fix a problem straight away. And you know what? I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna give you some space. Rosity, I'm gonna give you an hour. Why don't we have an agreement that in an hour's time we come back together and we talk about it in in from a healthier disposition? Good. I like that. Great, let's try it.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Yeah, I like that too. Yeah, and it's that easy. Why do we complicate things?

SPEAKER_04 41:09

Because w we're complicated creepers.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

Um, but I also want to go back to what you spoke about with your mum about how she went back and and wanted to do that repair with you. And I wanted to touch on that because often women seem to take on the load or feel guilty about failing relationship or lack of intimacy or going through different stages that a woman's body can go through. We feel like we are holding it all up. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_06 41:45

I'd say that's true. And I would also say it's equally true for men.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

You you talk to any man and they will they will say, I don't know, I I men hold the load up of the relationship. We have the responsibility to keep the family safe, to be breadwinners. I mean, these are these are more quote unquote traditional values, right? But many men still think like that. Many men still f still feel very responsible. We we have our own set of, and this is where we miss each other, right? We have our own set of responsibilities and our own and our own pain around what we contribute and what's missing and how we feel we can do better and the way that we hold. If we lined up 50 men and 50 women, I'm fairly certain that most men and most women are gonna say the same thing that you just said. And it's they're both right. They're not wrong. Like it's not a right and wrong thing. I agree with the statement you made, I totally agree with it. And I can very much see how that's so real for so many women. And the other side to that is I can show you so many men that feel the very, very similar way, a little different, of course, in their own way, but very, very similar in terms of the protector and provider archetype. They feel massively responsible and they feel like they're holding everything and they don't feel accepted and respected and appreciated. And part of that's their own wounding, part of that's their little boy not having expression, not being online, and them not accessing that part of their psychology and lining that up. And and part of it is um just people in relationship missing each other, like not seeing each other, which happens often.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Yeah. It's like those little wounded childhood parts of us that haven't been yet addressed, right? Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:30

Yeah, and that's that's what relationship offers, an opportunity to address that in a really meaningful, healing way.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

Hmm. So many of my listeners are raising older teenage boys or young adult sons. What wisdom would you offer to women who want to raise emotionally healthy young men?

SPEAKER_05 43:49

Yeah, be the best version of woman you can be. And for you. Don't try and be their dad because it's not your role. And that's a big undertaking to. Be multiple people, basically. It's a really big undertaking.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

It's exhausting.

SPEAKER_05 44:06

Very exhausting, for sure. Yeah. Um let him be in the world, let him go in the world, which is very difficult. Very difficult for a parent to do in in whatever way that looks like. And maybe even most importantly, if you can um encourage, support, provide uh an environment of healthy men for him to be around. As he's moving, mentors, yeah. Yes, he's moving, you know, uncles, your your brothers, your your friends, your cousins, your your father, if the if you have that relationship. So he has solid men in his life as he's transitioning from boyhood to manhood. Yeah it's really important for boys to be.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

I agree. And I think it people miss it, you know, and same for for young women as well. But for my boys, that was something I grew up in a house full of girls. I was the youngest of three girls. So, but I remember my boys going through different stages and I was seeking mentors. And because I don't have a lot of male influence in my life, I actively reached out to like male surfers. My son was a surfer, so then I approached these amazing young men saying it's a really serious role, but you know, I'm just looking at you as a mentor for my son. Approached a basketballer that used to play for Sydney Kings and he mentored my other son. So I think there's so much power in that for young men.

SPEAKER_05 45:34

I love that you did that. That is so I mean, I don't know. I'm just gonna use the words that came to mature and evolved. Like that really, that really is mature and evolved on your end. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Um hopefully it helped.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

Hey, here's here's the I I won't project any of this on you, but here's what I reckon with. It's like, and I and I and I say that to myself too. And I keep coming back to I'm going to do the best that I can. And yeah, hopefully it helps. And if it doesn't, I've got to be okay with it. Like I've just, it's just gonna be okay. I I'm I'm I'm I'm doing my best, and I'm yes, I'm doing it for an outcome, and I'm not just wiping my hands clean, but that she's going to take it as she takes it.

unknown 46:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

And it's inevitable. I think we are going to slightly damage our children in one way or another. I agree. It's just going to happen. And then that's their journey, right? They've got their journey to work on. I mean, we can't be a clean, perfect slate ever. There's no such thing.

SPEAKER_05 46:36

I don't think we're meant to be.

SPEAKER_03 46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:39

That's the illusion of the personality that has us believe, right? Of the ego that has us believe that we're meant to be perfect.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Yeah, that there's some kind of destination. But there's not. It's just all about the journey. Yeah. So how do we foster emotional safety, resilience, and vulnerability in boys as they grow into adulthood?

SPEAKER_06 47:04

They need healthy challenge.

SPEAKER_05 47:07

They need to be a true they need to do difficult things and then gain confidence from moving through those difficult things. Right. Whether they quote unquote succeed in that uh adventure or challenge or not. But they have to be able to move through that and then have reflection after that experience and be held and attuned to. Um boys need attunement, speaking of attuned to. They need to be heard and listened. Uh they need to know that their their feelings are safe to express and that their feelings are welcome and it's an integral part of being human, right?

SPEAKER_06 47:45

Boys need barriers and guide rails as well.

SPEAKER_05 47:49

Very important. Yeah, I like that. Otherwise, we're left to our own devices. This is what happens. When a boy doesn't have guidance but adult masculine guidance, he has this need to prove his value and worth to the world. And as we're growing from boyhood to manhood in the teenage period where testosterone is surging, where our physiology is changing dramatically, we will seek validation and proving our worth in extreme ways because we don't have guardrails. And we're still trying to find our identity. And that becomes the norm, that becomes the habit, that becomes compounded over time, who we become. And extremes are volatile, and extremes are uncertain, and extremes are unsafe. Therefore, being in any intimate kind of relationship, going back to what you shared earlier around a woman's nervous system softening becomes very difficult. So then there's that thing that's missing in that person's life, because we all want to be seen and loved and understood and accepted and appreciated and heard.

SPEAKER_03 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:51

Men aren't excluded from that, but we will struggle to do that if we're living in extremes. So uh those those items that I mentioned there are very important for a boy.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

And it's hard, isn't it? Because you spoke about guardrails, and some mothers might look at that like, you know, protection, overbearing, perhaps, lots of rules, rigidness, control, which is really hard because around that age of 14 to 15, 16, boys are sort of finding their identity and to see what sticks, you know. And they they are sort of testing everything, pushing the boundaries. So when you say guardrails, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_06 49:33

No, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 49:36

It's as simple as that. So hey, that's interesting, you want to do that. Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 49:45

What what what makes you think that's a great idea for you? Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:49

As an example, right? But yeah, just even uh I'm a little old school here, but even the even the it's not the threat isn't the right word, but even the the it's the it's the respect to say a boy has healthy males in his life. Let's say it's a father, right? Biological father in his life loves, loves this boy, guides him, is there. And he can say to him, hey, if you do that, there are consequences for that action. Yeah. Think about, feel into deeply. Do you really want to do that? That's a guardrail. That curiosity, that conversation, that safe space for that boy to be there in that conversation with his father. That's a guardrail. It's a guardrail isn't only, hey, you're grounded for 10 days. But that's not that's punishment. Punishment, sure, like punishment can work for some people. It's not not the whole other conversation, but it's not about punishment. Guardrails aren't punish, isn't punishment. Guardrails is navigating the complexity of this new thing for that boy's nervous system and his psyche in a way where he feels, oh, I'm not alone in this.

SPEAKER_03 50:54

Yeah. And maybe I should think about it. And I don't need to fight here, right? Yeah, no, I like that. Guardrails. That's good. So, Steph, you've written a book called Tuned In and Turned On. Can you tell us about it?

SPEAKER_05 51:08

Yes, of course. Thank you. Um, you can get the book at tunedinandonbook.com. A stack of bonuses, and especially with the um audio, because I I actually read the audio about a year after I'd finished writing the book. So there's even more bonuses with that. Um But essentially the book is split into three parts. The the first part is really identifying patterns and the way we are as adults and where they come from and understanding what we've self-awareness essentially, what we've really experienced in life. But then also a junk to that is well, how do we actually begin to heal that? How do we how do we begin to really lay new foundations of expression, relating, existence in the world where we feel free from the past, from the demons, from fear, from these patterns that no longer serve us? Second part of the book moves into the nature and the value and the importance of healthy, intimate relating with another human being and how romantic intimate partnerships are very powerful. What are they powerful for? They're powerful for growth. In fact, they're the greatest catalyst for growth, which leads into the third part of the book, which is if you can move into an intimate relationship and sustain that and really choose to grow and see each other and feel each other and be there with each other, it is the fastest way to enlightenment. Very big, bold statement. But is the fastest way and perhaps the most powerful way to experience God within your life.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

Yeah, I love that. And my takeaway from that is you know, you're working, you that's that self-awareness and that action and working towards enlightenment, but it's about connection as well. I mean, that that is what life is all about is connection. So you can either do that alone or to do that in a loving relationship with someone. That's a sweet spot.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Steph, is there anything that we've missed today that you you wanted to add on or elaborate on?

SPEAKER_06 53:03

Well, yes.

SPEAKER_05 53:04

I would just say that I I use this word willingness a fair amount in working with clients and even in my own inner world, right? Here. When we are truly willing to face the most uncomfortable parts of ourselves, that's when growth occurs. And growth equals freedom.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:29

Isn't isn't it special? Just think of the time in your life where where you've felt free. Whatever you associate with the word freedom, whether it's feet in the sand, at the ocean, gentle breeze, sunsetting, sunrising, depending on where you are, there's a freedom in that. Having a conversation that could have gone south really quickly but didn't, freedom in that.

unknown 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:50

Being able to celebrate yourself because you've done something amazing, like you've just been promoted at work. And you can actually embrace that and like you own, hey, I did that and proud of yourself. Freedom in that. When we're willing to grow, freedom awaits us.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

Willingness to be in the uncomfortable. That's where the magic happens. I remember doing the therapy years ago and just being ripped wide open and calling a friend hysterical. And she said to me, Honey, you've just got to put on those goggles and swim through that pool of shit, and I'll be waiting out the other side. It's always stuck with me. Because I had to swim through the pool of shit. I had to do the hard stuff. And I always say to people, it was the best thing that I ever did in my life. And I say to my son, Thank you for being a little shit, because you're the one that got me to therapy. Like it was honestly the hardest but the most rewarding thing I've ever done. And it was three years uh weekly uh trauma therapy, uh day uh once a week. Um but it's not complete, it's always ongoing, it's just different. Yeah, different. But yeah, yeah. So I love that that willingness to to do the hard stuff. That's that's a great way to to wrap up. So before we finish, I like to offer a moment of reconnection. What does your body taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_05 55:20

That it's it's safe, okay, and acceptable, particularly for the part of my psyche that represents my little boy, to be more of himself just to express freely. You know, there's no no judgment, no humiliation, no rejection, just freedom.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

What season of life are you in right now?

SPEAKER_06 55:46

Difficult one, actually.

SPEAKER_05 55:49

Yeah, um, for a few different reasons because I'm in this portal of transition. I'm transitioning how I do my career, I'm transitioning how that expresses. Motherhood has been deeply beautiful and rewarding and and challenging in many respects. It has shifted the paradigm of my marriage and how we relate. So we're learning to re-relate to each other in new ways. And so there's just lots of change at the moment. And so change can feel a little un unsettling, right? Um and and and the change, most if not all of it's really positive. And I associate it with it being positive, but it also feels like a lot at one time. And so there's some difficulty that's associated with that.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

Yeah. What other rituals or practices that keep you connected to yourself?

SPEAKER_05 56:43

Simply put, breath, sound, and movement. Stillness and stillness and silence, sort of together, right? I could sit in my cold plunge and just close my eyes and I breathe and I sound and I hum and I'll do that for a few minutes, and that's important to me, and that matters, right? Um, I like to breathe and just sit and breathe. And so stillness and breath, I move my body, I exercise every day. Um 99% of my training sessions are are pretty intense. I deliberately structured that way. But those those base practices for me, breath, sound and movement and stillness and silence as a as a foundation, allow me to be more relational, allow me to be more considerate, more aware, more attuned to myself and to others. Uh, that's really important. I also have accountability in my men's group and the teachers that I work with, the coaches that I have. Um, that's important to me as well.

SPEAKER_03 57:42

Stefanos, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your wisdom. It's been a fascinating and insightful conversation. Where can people find you and learn more about your work?

SPEAKER_05 57:53

Of course, if you want to work with me, coachwithsteph.com, obviously my book, tuned in and turn on book.com and the social media at Stefanos Sefandos.

SPEAKER_03 58:03

Super. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 58:05

Thank you, appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03 58:11

Thank you for joining me on Inside Out Connections. I hope today's conversation reminds you to tune in and find small ways to self reconnect. If this episode resonated, please share it with a friend or leave a quick review. Come join me on Instagram at insideout skin gutcoach.