Elliot Page

Today Ilana sits down with the award-winning actor and cultural leader for queer rights, self-discovery, and truth: Elliot Page. Ilana and Elliot cover his new documentary SECOND NATURE, about queerness in the animal kingdom, the book Sex at Dawn, which was influential in both of their sexual developments, and the feeling of being in love 😍. In this generous and open discussion, Elliot describes learning to move beyond the societal pressures to conform (that we are all subject to) and discover an authentic, personal sense of masculinity and the deep comfort he has found in being his true self. Come on in, it’s open.

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Host: Ilana Glazer
Producers: David Rooklin, Annika Carlson, Madeline Kim, Kelsie Kiley, Glennis Meagher
Video Producers: Lexa Krebs, Louise Nessralla
Audio Producers: Nicole Maupin, Rachel Suffian, Rebecca O’Neill
Lighting Director: Kevin Deming
Editor: Tovah Leibowitz
Graphics: Raymo Ventura
Outro Music: Don Hur

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to It's Open with Alana Glazer. I just came off such a tender and thoughtful conversation with my guest today, Elliot Page. I know Elliot as a friend through activism. And when you get to know people through that human, you know, one-to-one lens, I forget that he's Elliot Page. He's been in some of the biggest movies of our generation for the past 20, 25 years. It's incredible. He was nominated for an Oscar when he was 20 years old. I mean, like, I don't know. He's just, he's just incredible. And the way that he has offered his craft and gifts as an activist, as he has moved so elegantly and gracefully through his gender and sexuality journey has been a gift to this world. Also, the author of Page Boy, oh my gosh. Um, it was incredible and so moving and also heartening. And I I hope you uh hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did having it. So come on in. It's open. That I think is a hard part about being as famous as you are, is it would be hard to commit to an electric scooter. Like that's tough.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I guess it would be a look. Yeah. Like sometimes I want to go roller skating because I haven't roller skated in a while, and I, you know, did that this movie with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Or I like fully learned a roller derby like on a bank track.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

That was so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

And I still have those skates. Yeah, awesome, like ride out skates that are really comfortable. And I think about going, but then I'm just like, that's a look. That's a choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

I'm Elliot Page roller skating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Like in Riverside Park. Just like.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Oh my gosh. You know, we were just um like reflecting on knowing each other for a while. It's been a while. It's been a while. How old are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

39.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Me too. 1987. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's tough. Because sometimes you're like, am I 26 or 29 or 32? Yeah, 87. Yeah. When were you? When's your birthday? April 12th.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Oh, I'm February 21st. So nice. Nice. I'll be 41st.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Year of the rabbit, we are. Yeah. Bunnies. How do you feel about getting older? You hesitated before I asked.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

You know, I really um enjoy it and feel grateful for it, obviously. Um, and love how I feel and and kind of where I'm at now in my life. I think the I wish I'd maybe come to certain conclusions a little earlier is the only thing that I sometimes go, uh but um about who you are, your identity, that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Like I wish I'd, you know, made come to certain conclusions and made certain changes in my life earlier. Um I think that's the only thing that ever pops up that feels like a oof about my age.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

I will I relate to that. And like in therapy, I find this like persistent narrative of myself as wishing I were further in the process than I than I am at the time. I don't want to be at the point in the process that I'm at. But then how could you get here if you weren't? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

And I think if it wasn't my transness, it would be other things, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

And it's also like a way to kind of do math around sadness and loss. You know what I mean? To like not feel whatever pain you were feeling. It's like if I had done it earlier, I wouldn't feel that. But like, like you're saying, like that's not true. Yeah, it would be something else.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

I told you that we had Jacob Tierney on uh the podcast recorded it last week. Um, he was a child actor, as were you. How young were you when you got into it? I was 10 years old.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Did you just have like a drive?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

You know, I think there was a there was a bit of a natural drive because I was interested in like drama club at school and wanted to go to my mom to take me to plays, but there wasn't, I never said, Oh, I want to be an actor. I don't think I grew up in Halifax, Nova Scotia. I don't just wasn't really, it wasn't just something people did, you know. Um what's the vibe there? Um I grew up in Halifax, which is a city there, but like most of the province is very rural and lots of trees and lakes, and um and Nova Scotia's a peninsula in the Atlantic, so very, you know, it's the Maritimes. And you know, it was one of those situations where in school I got asked to audition for something, like a CBC movie of the week, and um got that part, and which seemed like just a little fun thing, and but then that turned into a TV show, and then that led to more. And I I would say it wasn't until I was like 15, 16 where I started to go, like, oh, I I really love this, and and this is what I want to do, and and started actually to become like very serious about pursuing it.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Because you seem like such a driven person who knows who you are. That's my impression of you. And also, like, you know, you've made it through um child acting is or acting very young, and honestly, being an actor at all, with I mean, if you don't have success, it can hurt a person. If you do have success, it can hurt a person. And you know, my impression of you is health that you've um made the journey through being an actor starting at a very young age healthfully. Were you like aware of the, I don't know, predatory nature of the industry? Were you what was your like protection mechanism, I suppose, is my question.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

I mean, I don't want to sound like be or come across as like over or dramatic by any means, but I would I would say that I I don't know how healthily I, you know, I feel like I did sort of in some ways barely make it a bit.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

That's how that's how Jacob described it too, but a skin of his teeth, he said. Yeah. I guess the reason that I see you as somebody who knows themselves is because you seem to really know your craft. You're like a good fucking actor. So there's some like sense of control and knowing there of what you're offering. And I think as you started like um as you started speaking out for human rights through a queer lens, it was, I think, in a particularly thoughtful way. Did you feel like once you started uh becoming public about aspects of your identity, your your gender, your sexuality, did you feel like, okay, I have to speak up for others? Like, what was that pivot like for you as somebody who carefully protected their privacy?

SPEAKER_00 6:54

I yeah, I feel like the it it was a feeling of of I have to, and but out of uh like that but very organically, you know, like just like a you know, a reflex. And I'd say, even as I was a teenager, I feel like maybe my first protest I marched in was probably I was 16 against the Iraq War, you know, and feel like I was engaged. And and I'd say in like my early 20s and becoming closeted in in Hollywood and adjusting to this like Los Angeles world was disconnected me from myself, I'd say in many ways, you know, and focuses or, you know, uh what, you know, uh where your priorities are, what have you. Um, and so I feel like the aligning of finding my voice, so to speak, um getting to a place of being able to share who I am and no longer considering those noise, that noise, you know, external and internal, um, that was causing me so much harm. And, you know, finally getting to that kind of place in my life. And I think it made me able to engage more with the world in so many ways. And um, and I think because of the amount of privilege I've, you know, had my the access to resources um in regards to the care I've received and and thinking of you know individuals who are just not in that position. And um, yeah, to me it's just it's it just feels like a very it feels very like natural and organic and just um uh a part of what it means to to be alive, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Yeah, yeah. Your new documentary, Second Nature, it's going deep into the non-binary nature of gender and sexuality in the entire animal kingdom of which we are a part of, but also it's funny. Um, how'd you get involved with this project?

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Um, I was so lucky to get involved with this because a a friend of mine connected me with the director, Drew Denny, who sent me a link and asked if I'd be interested in, you know, coming on as a as a producer and narrating it. And I watched it and just absolutely loved it and felt well, I just enjoyed it because I learned so much and it was it's so funny and it's so just it has such an openness, expansiveness, warmth to it, and I felt so affirmed by it. And I felt silly for just assuming it all of this to not be the truth, which of course it makes sense that animals are queer as fuck. Um and whether it's you know, waterfowl or lions or uh frogs or sex-changing fish or you know, bonobos, or you know, the list goes on and on. So it's a nature documentary that explores how you know what we were taught in biology class in terms of you know gender and sex being this really binary thing in nature, uh men being the dominant, violent, aggressive ones, women being inferior and submissive and what have you, and just none of it's literally none of it's true. It's it's it's a quaint little myth. Nature's so expansive. Um the gender binary literally, I mean, it just doesn't exist. I mean gender, sex, it's a spectrum. And this documentary goes into all of this, and uh I'm just really lucky to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Uh you mentioned in our pre-interview conversation that you read Sex at Dawn.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

That was like people, that's like a secret, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Ethical slut and sex at Dawn with my I really I Sex at Dawn really blew my mind. Me too.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Um, Sex at Dawn is this book that like the in, I guess, is uh about how monogamy is a construct, but then it breaks down how most devices, structural devices in our society are a construct, like how food, uh the way that food is distributed in our country mimics the way that religion is distributed, mimics the education system. Um, I loved that book. It changed my life. I read it actually before I met David, and I feel like it actually set me up to be open to the kind of partnership that I wanted, that I wanted. That's awesome. When did you read it?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Probably mid-twenties. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Um, and yeah, it had a really big impact on me. And um, and you know, and also just in terms of like feeling comfortably sexually and getting to feel like a sexual being. And I mean loved knowing how closely related we are to bonobos. Me too. Which is a huge part of, you know, second nature really goes into this and how there was almost a reluctance to even admit our closeness to bonobos because chimps represent a more, I'd say, favorable structure to those in power. Whereas like they don't want us to know that we're just as closely related to matriarchal society, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Got it. Um, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

And they're fucking, you know. Yeah, yeah. And they're like for pleasure, for social bonding, for reconciliation. Yeah. You know, for all kinds of reasons.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

That was the thing, that was the thing in Sex at Dawn that hit me too, that like tribes and communities used to fuck so much less binary, not your one partner fuck openly and um whatever, uh, for like bonding between communities. I was like, that makes a whole lot of sense. Yeah. I remember another, I mean, the imagery stuck in my mind of tribes like having uh a woman having multiple uh male partners and you wouldn't even know who specifically child this was because the whole group was taking care of all the kids. Totally. It was it really blew my mind that book. I was so excited that you read it. Yeah. Because I felt the same thing. Like if you when you know this stuff and you unlock that knowledge of like humanity, it makes you like feel closer to your own humanity and less ashamed of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

You know, I remember another part of Sex at Dawn was how uh shame around masturbation was a construct that like almost a PR campaign at a certain point. So silly.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah, it's so boring. Yeah, you know, aren't we over it? I think we just like we are, like, I think we are, and that's why this is over just like queer phobia, yep, misogyny, transphobic, blaming everything on trans people. It's just like, aren't you seeing through this? You know, it's so boring, transparent. And even with the chimps, actually, when I'm thinking of the chimps, because I remember that one of the um biologists in the documentary talks about how like even if you know there is violence and there is fighting, they'll have like reconciliation sex, basically, to sort of like make, you know, and reconcile. And reconciliation is a big part of um, you know, keeping the society going versus constant war.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Makeup sex. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Oh, but I here's one thing that I found really interesting in the second nature doc, which was this group of baboons who had discovered uh like dump, like a trash dump. And all the alpha males were, you know, kind of taking it over, keeping everyone away and you know, eating the food. And I mean, sadly, they got sick, they got like tuberculosis or something from the food and died. So then this group of baboons was left with no alpha males, and they completely changed their societal structure and way of interacting, and it's now been decades and it's stayed the same. And so it was, I find that aspect also like really fascinating. So even in this, you know, there's this change, and then there's this like adaptive response that leaned towards something that was more cooperative and peaceful for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

You know? That is uh that's a perfect microcosm. That is like they they are and the alphas for all those dudes who are amalpha, really gay.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

They're cuddling and hang, you know, squeezing those genitals of their friends, and you know, there's the alphas they're being gay.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

It's it really does map out the aggressive patriarchy and homosexuality, and that feels like such an illusion, the the distancing of those things.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

I will say, like when I first started taking testosterone, I was like, okay, like I was like, but did I just start going out and grabbing people without consent? No. So I get so sick of like something like that being an excuse. It's not a fair excuse. Yeah. And I'd say I've always been, you know, down horny. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

We down together. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Um, but this was a whole, this was for me, you know, the first thing I I noticed starting to take date. Um and but yeah, like I said, that being said, it didn't it didn't make me all of a sudden be out of control.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Right, right, you know. Um okay, I'm gonna wrap up in a in a few minutes. What I wanna touch on is love. You're in love.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

I am, yeah. Love rocks. Love is awesome. It's fucking lit. Tell me about it. How does it feel? You know, with someone now for like over a year and it's feeling I think because I'm just feeling so much more grounded in myself with like a new foundation to come from and to build from like to fall in love, like really feeling that way, and just feeling a sort of continuously and intel intentionally, you know, building and deepening this connection. And um I feel just really lucky and grateful and to be in a place where I don't feel codependent, where I, you know, um where yeah, I don't feel like I'm I'm losing myself in because of something and um I'm getting to you know to continue to grow and and and build this relationship with someone that I'm really love, who's so sweet and caring and incredibly funny and talented and uh and gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

She's so hot and cool. Yeah, she's so hot and cool. You know her. Yeah, our little Julia Shiplet. And it's cool how Julia's just got her thing going, you know, like it's so great that you guys have just each doing your own thing. Yeah. I've been asking people about masculinity and femininity. We are seeing so much, and I mean, I mean our entire lives, we've seen so much uh unhealthy masculinity, so much sickness in this world, specifically through through the lens of men. And in your gender journey, which to me, as someone who knows you, but also as someone consuming you as a public figure, to me, you uh appear healthy and continually finding more health and security. What does um what does it mean to you to hear me say healthy masculinity?

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Healthy masculinity to me is or even just something I've felt as trans like transitioning is like leaning away from whenever there is some sort of impulse or expectation you've put on yourself to like shut down or or conform in a way that usually feels like this. Like I am closing off. I remember kind of being like, oh Elliot, maybe you should, you know, talk with your hands a little less, or uh you know, maybe in pictures you're because all ever since transitioning, now I'm like giant, I am smiling. I am smiling in those photos. Whereas I used to be so I could barely look at a photo of myself. I was always like, you know, and now and I'll be taking say a dude's like, hey, are you are you Victor from Umbrella Academy? You know, and we're doing a photo together. He's very yeah, uh-huh. And like having that moment where I'm like, oh, should I also not like should I also be close? It's just like, what the fuck, Elliot? What are you what are you talking about? Like, oh honey, you're the part of the problem. So I think it's to me, healthy masculinity would be well, you know, a healthiness for anyone to just, you know, love themselves, be able to care for themselves, I ideally get rest when they can, you know, like just the practical basic drink water, like eat a banana, you know. Like, and also just you know, doing what you can to be intentionally and mindfully not letting yourself get like swayed or twisted by um the the the rules that I I feel like end up like leading to so many of the the problems that we see that are you know do get inflicted by toxic masculinity and um violence and um abuse, um just general cruelty and uh yeah, I think it's just like healthy masculinity could just mean a really good cry and like I just wanna make sure I'm always like leaning away from that pull to to shut off emotionally.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

I'm hearing like an openness.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Practicing opening.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Because it's so true, like a closed off.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

That and like And it happened, and like closed off could lead to just Impatience, it could lead to whatever it is. I'm trying so much to just be like when that happens, it's like, Elliot, shoulders back, take a few breaths. It really makes a difference.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

But when we are organized through this such a strict, rigid system, the pressure to conform, we don't realize how that pressure to conform is suppressing our health, restricting our nervous system. This is kind of what I was like thinking about about being in love and the relaxation. And my journey with gender and sexuality has like opened up so much since becoming a parent. The physical experience of making a person and then getting that person out of my body, like that has been a huge touchstone for me for opening up my own pressure to conform. Like it was in my pregnancy that I realized I identify as non-binary, as a non-binary woman in pregnancy. And that was when my sex like opened up. And actually I was able to finally take in the relax and the surrendering to my partner that I didn't realize, I didn't even know how tightly I was holding on to it. But it is that pressure to conform that restricts us, that we don't even know we're being held so tightly by. And it's it's painful for everybody. It's it's so, it's so um, it's cruel. You saying cruelty as related to the patriarchy, it's unfortunately true. You know, the trans experience of finding your comfort in your body is particularly visible, and yours as a person who's been famous for so long is particularly pronounced. But this is actually uh emblematic of how everybody feels in this society, wrong in their bodies. I the as women being told we're too fat, we're too thin, not curvy enough, too curvy, men, cis men are taking tea. Cis men take tea, and men are uh loudly transphobic, you know, podcasters, whatever. And we're missing this, we're missing this opportunity for the trans experience to be this like just uh particularly pronounced and accessible example of finding your true self.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

One thing I feel really fortunate about, about like you know, getting nominated for an Oscar when I was 20 or whatever. And having that happen when I was so young, and in that period, feeling the worst, like absolutely just not okay in those in those years following, and to learn that lesson so young, like to go, like I actually don't care, that's not what I care about, and something's not okay here. And like to be in a place now where I can like reflect on that and like just sort of where my priorities are, where they are creatively, like there's just I feel so lucky to have learned that young that you could have this thing that everyone's saying is the dream come true and people's obsession with fame and oh you know, or what success means, or and don't get me wrong, of course it comes with act, you know, it helps your career above, of course. But I just mean like it gave me such a I think profoundly important lesson so young. And in some ways, I feel like that relates to like, you know, conformity or you know, how people think they should, you know, approach life or or they get lost in an idea of what success means to them or what have you. And and like in terms of my transness, I feel so lucky because I feel like I've gone from a place where I could barely function. I was so uncomfortable to now, kind of no matter what's going on, like my feet are on the ground. And I had to do all that digging, and I had to like scrape through all those layers and not worry about what people were gonna say or think and all that. And gosh, when you do get like feel like liberated from that and that shame that you've been carrying, like that is what I would wish for everybody. For everybody. And I do think that's what trans and gender non-conforming people can can offer. And I and of course, they people in power, what have you, these like you know, white supremacist patriarchal structures, don't want people to feel liberated and feel that sense of power and feel that sense of possibility. Um nor do they want to lose a societal structure that you know keeps so many people oppressed and resources extracted and everything that it leads to.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

That is so brilliant. Okay, my last question is you were you started working at a young age, you had talent plus drive, plus the skill set to apply that talent and drive, keep yourself as safe as you possibly could, and make it through to this healthy state where you are more and more and more yourself. As such a driven person who's also had the sometimes it can be unfortunate, the confirmation of success. How do you pause and step away and find rest?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Well, this now I feel like I'm so much better at. But I think that's just because I'm comfortable, like I can actually physically rest, you know. I think just being sitting with yourself. Yeah, right. Just being more comfortable in my body. So for me now it's I don't know, it's pretty simple. I'm really just I love walking my dog.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Getting to check in, see friends, spend time with my wonderful girlfriend. I love to read.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah, you strike me as a reader.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

I really love to read.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Bragging, Olient Page, braggar, author, and reader.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Um, it really, it just really calms me. It's just like that is actually what in the evening and just a couple hours of that, like that is just for me so calming and weirdly where I can focus. Yeah. Whereas lately I'm noticing like watching stuff weirdly, I I end up looking at my phone, you know. It's just, but uh, yeah, the the book keeps me there. So it really, I think, is just about um really getting to enjoy feeling comfortable in my body and really, yeah, feeling um more special than ever, which I know is so strange in the context of the world and everything going on and the absolute horror. Like, I'm not, it feels weird to be like I don't want to separate from that, but in terms of just like, you know, foundationally how I get to feel in my body and connect with the world right now, I feel so grateful that I get to come from this place right now.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I do not think it's separate from the context. I think it's rooted in the context of the way the world is right now. The stakes are so high that the preciousness, the cherishment of those moments of being in your body in your life feels so important. It has been my privilege and pleasure to talk to you today. Thanks so much for coming in. Oh, thanks for having me. Okay, wow. Oh my gosh, what a what a beacon of light and leadership, Elliot Page. Thank you, Elliot, for being on the show. That was my privilege to interview you. Is he watching this? I don't know. Anyway, um, this has been an exclusively human-made production. This has been a Star Pix production. I want to thank the creative team who has helped me get to this point and make this episode. Annika Carlson, David Brooklyn, Madeline Kim, Glennis Mahar, and Kelsey Piley. I want to thank Tova Libowitz, our amazing editor. I want to thank Raimo Ventura, who made the opening musical sting and these beautiful graphics. I want to thank the good people who made this and continue to make this uh production look and sound so good, from Nicole Maupin to Kevin Deming and Lexa Krebs. I want to thank Don Hur who made this outro sting. This is my new favorite band with Elliot Glazer, Jimmy Hines, and Derek Nero. Um, if you like this show, like listening to it, watching it, I ask that you like and subscribe. Uh, it makes a difference and it's impactful as we build this community. Um, thanks so much. Have a great day. God love you. It's open.