Comparison is the Thief of Joy: Jennifer Pate on Choosing Yourself

What if the only thing standing between you and your next chapter is the belief that the ship has already sailed?

In this episode of Women I Want You to Know by Andrea L. Johnston™ Podcast, Andrea sits down with Jennifer Pate, a producer, author and former casting director whose career has been one reinvention after another. Jennifer danced professionally in her late teens, moved into casting and built her own company, stepped back to raise her kids, then co-created the Webby-winning web series Jen and Barb Mom Life and co-wrote the book The Mothers of Reinvention. Today she produces film and television, including The Runarounds on Amazon Prime and the feature Driver's Ed.

Jennifer and Andrea trace a path that refuses to run in a straight line. Every chapter handed her something the next one needed, and she is candid that not all of it worked. The through line is reinvention, the willingness to shed an old version of yourself when it stops serving you and to ask "why not me" instead of "why me."

The conversation lands well beyond career advice. Jennifer talks about the invisible labor women carry at home, the Gloria Steinem quote that reframed how she sees stay-at-home mothers and why comparison is the thief of joy. She and Andrea make the case that the work done inside the home is real, valuable work, that women in their 50s and beyond get to define this chapter on their own terms and that a circle of women you can be honest with is closer to oxygen than luxury.

This episode is for the woman who thinks the ship has sailed, who stepped back from her career and wonders if there is a way back in and who is ready to stop measuring her chapter against everyone else's.

In this episode, you'll hear:

• Why "why not me" beats "why me" in every reinvention
• How Jennifer turned a mommy and me class friendship into a Webby-winning series
• What The Mothers of Reinvention teaches about shedding old versions of yourself
• Why staying home with her kids was never a step backward
• How the skills from one career quietly fund the next
• Why comparison is the thief of joy and what to do instead
• What Gloria Steinem told Jennifer about stay-at-home mothers
• Why the invisible labor of the home is real and valuable work
• How women in their 50s and beyond can define this chapter themselves
• Why you belong at any table you are invited to
• What a circle of trusted women does for your longevity

Timestamps

(0:00) Introduction

(0:46) Do I really belong on this show

(2:39) Pausing a casting career for motherhood

(6:43) Building Jen and Barb Mom Life

(7:51) Writing The Mothers of Reinvention

(9:05) The invisible labor women carry home

(12:14) Becoming a film and television producer

(18:10) Comparison is the thief of joy

(22:54) Women deserve the choice to decide

(25:06) Why women need circles of girlfriends

(28:28) Closing gratitude and call to action

Episode Resources
Jen and Barb Mom Life: http://jenandbarb.com
Jennifer Pate, USC School of Dramatic Arts Board of Councilors: https://dramaticarts.usc.edu/about/board-of-councilors/jennifer-pate/
The Mothers of Reinvention (book) https://www.amazon.com/Mothers-Reinvention-Reclaim-Identity-Potential/dp/1593156839

Produced by ⁠UNFLTR

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So many people, women obviously, but people say, I'm this age, I can't, or that ship has sailed, or all the reasons why something can't. I'm not saying that everything is possible, but more is possible if your mind is yes, I can.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

This is Women I Want You To Know. Hi everyone, it's Andrea. Welcome back to Women I Want You To Know. I am so excited today to welcome Jennifer Pate. I am so happy to have you here, Jennifer. Thank you for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

I am so honored. I'm just excited to chat with you. It's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Well, I can't wait to talk about you and the journey that's brought you to where you are. Um, one of the things I actually think is so interesting is that when you and I were talking about doing this, you said, Am I really right for this show, Andrea? Like you seem to interview a lot of the people on the corporate track, women who've been climbing the corporate ladder. I don't know. Is this really right for me? So tell me about that and sort of where your head was, because I think you are absolutely right for this. And I can't wait for our community to see exactly why. But what was going through your head?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

You know, I really believe that all of us have a story to tell and share, and that is the beautiful thing about women and the way we communicate. I wondered because uh listening to your fabulous podcast and seeing the women, most of whom have been really career focused from the jump and really never stopped. And that idea of, you know, CEO, C-suite, that kind of world is not necessarily the world that I inhabit. Um however, once I spoke with you and really thought about it, I thought, you know, there's always room for a different perspective in career and motherhood and femininity and all of that. Um, so it took me a second though, but I will say it reminded me that don't question yourself. If somebody asks you to have a seat at the table, you belong at that table. You need to remember no matter what, you belong at the table. So it was a good, it was a good sort of um exercise for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

I love that. And I'm so glad you said that about sitting at the table. I think that's a really great message for everyone. And I also am glad that you brought up this sort of inherent tension for a lot of women with this idea of career, home, motherhood. So you made the choice at one point to stay at home and to put the brakes and pause on what was a very successful at that point career, especially in casting. So, can you tell us a little bit about what drove that and sort of the decision-making process and what that experience was like?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

I always thought that I would work. I always wanted to be a mom, and I always thought I would work, and I didn't imagine not doing both. And after a very successful decade-long dance career, theater, concert dance, I got into casting. I worked for two amazing women for three years, and then started my own company with two other women for casting for TV and film. And I thought it would be the perfect thing as a mom. And I had Cooper, and I took three months off, and I went back, and I remember that first day I felt like an adult. I had a lunch, I couldn't really put my clothes on, but that was okay. I was like pumping at the office, and I literally remember the next day for me, and I want to be very clear women should have no judgment for other people. What works for one doesn't work for the other. I left the house and there was a nanny holding my baby, and I cried on the way to work. And within two months I was pregnant with Lila surprise. And my body just said I wanted to be home with my kids, and it wasn't as hard of a decision as I thought it was going to be. And my business partners were phenomenal. I will say this: I always knew I would continue to work. I just knew at that time that was the right decision for me.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

I think that that is something that women don't talk honestly enough about sometimes because you have to do what is right for you. What's right for me isn't going to be right for you. What's right for my next door neighbor isn't gonna be right for the person across the street. And I think sometimes women in particular are very quick to judge or to make decisions about how to interpret someone else's life choices. And I think we all just need to give each other grace because we're all on a different place in our life. We're all subject to different circumstances. And I love how accepting and how clear you are about the choice you made and that that was right for you in that time, but it also didn't prevent you from continuing to pursue a career when the time was right for you. So, can you talk a little bit as well about when you decided to jump back in? You had a husband who had a very successful career. You were also trying to manage and juggle the time commitments associated with that. So tell us a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

I met the most incredible woman who is my best friend and became my business partner in a mommy and me class. Call it the mommy pickup. Um, I had two little kids, she had two little kids. I thought she was fabulous, even though I was very confused why her little twins were dressed in Burberry. I'm like, mine had like paint and snot on them, but when I thought she was fabulous. And um we so other the first few years, I was very much at home, and my husband is a director, and we travel a lot. So one year we literally lived actually in North Carolina. We were in LA at the time, and I was starting to itching to do something, even though, of course, as the type A woman, I was, you know, the head of the PTA and doing all the things that um a uh person who likes to be productive does. And Barb and I started talking about exactly this because she was career, career, and she still is. She's a bad ass, I think I can say that. We started talking about how motherhood changes you as a woman, not so much how to change diapers, but how your identity changes. So we thought about doing a show and don't even ask me. We decided we wanted to do a web show. We pulled together some people, we shot this little like sizzle reel. We ended up selling it for like 40 episodes. We did over 120 over five seasons. We had a certain amount of money we wanted to make, we had a certain um time frame we wanted to do it in around our children. It while it wasn't a perfect science. And so we kind of jumped in, and as opposed to saying, why me? We said why not me. I love that reframe. Why not me? And why not now, right? Why not at that moment? And that's something I will say, why not now? So many people, women obviously, but people say, I'm this age, I can't, or that ship has sailed, or all the reasons why something can't. I'm not saying that everything is possible, but more is possible if your mind is yes, I can.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

In fact, you are a pretty big advocate for reinvention. You talk a lot about it. I think you even have a book about it. Talk about that because I think that's part of what you're also talking about here in the why not now and why not me.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yes. Um, we, Barb and I wrote a book called The Mothers of Reinvention, and we interviewed, I don't even know how many women, and we broke it up into chapters by sort of steps. You know, somebody, I think you can still buy it somewhere, the mothers of reinvention. Um, but it's the idea that we're always shedding skin, right? This idea that what we did at this time is what's going to serve us now isn't always the case. And so sometimes we have to shift. Often women will say, Well, I don't know what I want to do. I say, What are you good at? What do people compliment you on? Who's in your backyard? Who do you know? What connections you have? There's ways, and not everything has to be huge. That was the other thing about sort of the C-suite, right? Or the CEO is that it's so not everybody needs to do that nor wants to do that. Some people want turnkey. You know, I'm more of an entrepreneur myself. Um, there's a lot of responsibility with that. The idea that you can just kind of like, you know, check out for the day, it doesn't quite work like that. And so there's so many possibilities to have something in your life outside of all your traditional roles. And sometimes it is a job, sometimes it is a hobby, sometimes it is philanthropy. But it is important to do things that fuel you outside of all the traditional roles. You know, I know there's exceptions that prove the rule, but even women with high-powered jobs usually are still expected to carry the weight in the home.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I think you're absolutely right. I mean, the invisible labor that most women carry, despite what they may be paid for during the workday, they still carry so much at home, and society still expects women to wear certain hats. Um, I've interviewed other women on this podcast who often talk about the fact that even when their husband was the primary caregiver, they would still, as the mom, be the one on the text messages for the PTA or for soccer. They weren't willing to acknowledge the man in that role, which I think is, you know, further proof of sort of those societal expectations. Something I want to make sure that we don't miss is just how unique and how special, in my opinion, your career path has been. Because I think coming out of dance, as you acknowledged earlier, but then being on the path and this arc that you have been on, being able to take a pause and focus on your family the way that you did. But now what you're doing, and some of what I see is the energy and excitement that you derive from that. Can you just walk our audience through where you've been and sort of what that arc has really looked like?

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Well, as a career path, as I said, I started, I was very fortunate because I started dancing professionally very young in my late teens. So I kind of did a hybrid of college and dance and then really focused on dance. And then I got into casting, as I said. And then Barb and I started Jen and Barb Mom Life, which we won the Webby for best host. We had um huge corporate sponsors, it was lucrative, it was fun. We wrote the book Mothers of Reinvention. We then got a deal with ABC for Talent, and then we had a show on HGTV, which um was the first thing that I had, honestly, that I wasn't as passionate about. And then I took a pause because even though we were very early into let's call it the reality space, in that what we did is we interviewed women, but then we shared our home life. Because the idea was I don't believe if somebody just interviews, if they're not saying, well, I go through this too, and I am sad or and I didn't want my children on camera anymore. So that also took a shift because then when they were little, it was cute. And then I was trying to start Feel Ageless, which was like mom life 2.0 about aging, kind of you know, mind, body, and spirit of aging. And I um worked with um an incubator in New York, I had financing, and it it didn't go because I didn't want to be an influencer, and that was hard because I spent a couple years, and I think women should also know my path isn't just one of success and success and success. I had something I was really passionate about, and even though I ultimately made the decision, um, it was something that didn't work out. And then my husband, who is a producer director, he said, I always thought you'd be a great producer. And so I jumped in. We have a show called The Runarounds on Amazon Prime. That's one season, and I jumped in there. Um, and then I just produced a movie called Driver's Ed that's streaming now. So I just, but he but what I found is everything that you learn, you you think, oh God, well, what did I do all this for that for? You can't believe how much of your experience you'll find like that helps you in other things. So that's where I'm at. And I sit on a couple boards. I think that's, you know, um, I'm on the board of the School of Dramatic Arts at USC. I was in the arts council here in Wilmington, which um I'm still active in. So, and I don't know. I mean, I'm thinking about the next movie perhaps, but it's been a little bit of an odd path, um, but it actually has a through line.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

There's so much to almost dissect in what you just took us through so eloquently, but I think a couple of things stand out for me. One is your own story of reinvention, because each of those things is so different and unique on its own and such an accomplishment on its own. I also appreciate acknowledging when things don't work out the way they do. I mean, I think I have talked extensively about my personal failure, my burnout when I was at the height of my career, doing everything I had worked decades to achieve, but realized I had just pushed too hard and there was nothing left to give. But I own that, I acknowledge that, and I learned so much about myself and about what I really wanted in a purpose-driven life moving forward. Had I not failed, had I not burnt out, I never would have learned that about myself. So I'm also a big believer that it's important to fail, actually, because out of our failures often come our greatest insights and more realistic and thoughtful expectations around what does success mean for me. Because to your point, it's not always a CEO title. It's not always a Fortune 500 company. It can be something very different for each of us. So I'm really glad you shared that and that you talked about it the way that you did.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

I want to interject for one second because so I really feel like I'm been getting to know you better more recently. And I only really knew you more through school, and we have some mutual friends, and I hadn't seen you in a long time. And when I saw you, there was some, there was a spark. Like I literally, it was like there was an energetic shift in you, and I don't know you that well. And I saw that, and that is something that I'm bringing up for anybody who's listening, because sometimes what success looks like on the outside and what it feels like on the inside. And I saw when I saw you, it was like there was just there was a it was like a shine of brightness to you.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Thank you for saying that. Someone once told me this in the last year, and I think it's so true. When you're living in alignment with what you really want and what you believe to be your purpose and in service to others, it changes everything. Something just snaps together. And so the energy you bring, the way you show up, that shines through because you're in alignment. And never in my 30 plus years of working in corporate America and running my own business had anyone ever talked to me about living and working in alignment. But boy, does it make so much sense and does it change the way you show up in the world? Well, Jennifer, talk a little bit about what you're doing now. You talked about the show, you talked about sort of what might be next, another movie. You know, how are you thinking creatively? You've talked a little bit about too the the age. We're both women in our 50s, right? We're sort of I've got two and a half more weeks of that. Which is really kind of mind-blowing because you look younger than me, but anyway. Um I think this whole idea of women in our age group being able to reinvent ourselves, but also being able to define what we want this chapter to look like, you know, I don't think that was available to women a decade ago, even. And I get so excited about where we are and the freedom it brings. And, you know, you and I have talked about this before, and I love the way you think about it. So if you could share that with this audience, that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Well, at this point in my life, I mean, you know, each stage is different. Where I'm at, and my kids are now young adults, and um, they my daughter travels a lot for work, and my son's working in California currently. I am fortunate that I don't have, I mean, all that financial stress of all the years. We're very fortunate that we have less of that now. And so I have a little more freedom to make decisions, and that is um something I don't take for granted. Also, seeing so many people get sick, some people die. Um, I want to be very mindful of the work I take on right now because I, you know, hopefully I'm gonna be here for a long, long time. But I have a real awareness of the people in my life and how important they are. So I'm thinking about, I really do enjoy producing. There's a couple of projects I'm thinking about. And what's cool about that though is that if I'm not trying to do a million things, if I produce something when you work, it's super intense, and then you do have time. So um, I'm taking stock of how I want to organize my life. My husband, you know, is a successful um show creator and he's been so busy. And so I want to take a little time to assess that. One thing I do want to bring up though, which is not really what you're asking, but I think is really important for women, is you know, I mean, this is this is obviously we've heard this a million times, but comparison is the thief of joy. So one thing I see, whether it's we everybody looks at somebody else and they think they have more or better life, or you know, they're more successful, they make more money, they're younger, prettier, whatever the metric is. And one thing that's really important is everybody is more concerned about themselves. Like when you walk into a room, and I think I said this, but I know so many people like they get insecure, they feel like, oh, they're not looking great and they don't want to come, or all these things, or or I haven't been working for a while. Let me tell you, everybody is way more self-centered. And when I say they don't care about you, I don't mean they don't care about your heart, but show up and and and embrace what you have right now. You know, I mean, I know I'm sort of going off track, but I really No, this is so important, please. Um reach. So um, so yeah, I just I, you know, I I love being involved in artistic endeavors. I really do like working, I really do like making my own money, and I'm exploring what that looks like right now for me, but I am not done. Like I'll be 60 in a couple weeks, and I don't for one second, Andrea, think I'm too old to produce or I'm too old to do this. And so it is a mindset. Now, some people have physical limitations, some people have different limitations that they can't do something. So I'm not trying to um say to everybody, oh, you know, yes, you can because I say so, but it is a mindset. The idea you're too old or you haven't been in the workforce for this long, you've got to learn how to let that negativity go because you're the only one who thinks that.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

I think that is such an empowering and important statement because we all do get too wrapped up in our own heads and sometimes our own shortcomings or feeling of inadequacies, the imposter syndrome that I feel like is uniquely a woman thing. You know? And I think it does prevent us sometimes from doing things that we really want to do, and we can't let it hold us back.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Also, I want to speak to the moms who have or the women who have had children and maybe have taken time off from the workforce and they think they're out of it. Time management, the admin as a mom, the CEO of the household. Actually, I interviewed Gloria Steinem, um, and it was why your children should know the F-word, meaning feminism. And she was asking me about my family, and I said, My mom was a stay-at-home mom, she didn't work, and she said, Oh no, your mom worked, she had the hardest job. And it's funny, we left that in the interview because we edited as well. And I thought that was such a good point. So, any woman out there who hasn't been in the traditional workforce, you have been working and your multitasking abilities and your focus are unparalleled. You are absolutely somebody who, if you want to go back to the workforce, you use that as a reason why.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

You don't hide from that. I love it. I think it's actually really important because I think we're seeing more and more talk in society, especially amongst women, about the importance of valuing the work that women who work in the home really do. Because to your point, it is work. You are exercising critical skills for the success of your family, potentially for the success. Of your spouse and their career. And that is highly valuable and important work. And we as a society need to kind of reframe the way we talk about that. Whether it's a woman or a man who's doing it, it is valuable and it is important. And so just because you work outside the home and get paid, you know, it shouldn't be held to a different level of value than the women or men who are doing important work in the home, raising kids, keeping a house, managing all of the things that are required in order for life to move forward for a family.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

That's right. And also we need to stop judging each other. If you are somebody who has a very successful job and you look down on a woman who's only staying at home, that's your own insecurity. Maybe you feel like deep inside, like I'm not being a good enough mom, but what you say to yourself instead is, well, who wants to be that? So stop it.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

No, I think that's really important. And for me, what has always been the North Star is women just deserve the option and the choice. We should have the right to decide what we want to do. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that our path looks like this or like this. We should be able to have the choice. And I don't think anyone should take that choice away from us. I don't think anyone else should be making decisions about our futures, our lives, our bodies, you name it. But I think that for me has always been the North Star. Women deserve, earn, and have the right to make that choice for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

And also know that what you think today, you may evolve and think differently. And that's where that reinvention comes in. That open being open to this isn't serving me anymore. And instead of going, well, this is the choice I've made and being rigid, think about how you can make some changes or adjustments to find what serves you now.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

I think that's really good advice. And it's something that also people don't talk enough about in terms of you being conceptually flexible about your own path, because we never know what's in front of us. You know, when I spoke to you about this when we had coffee a couple of months ago, it was actually one of the most inspiring and invigorating conversations. Because I think the way you think about aging and the way you think about reinvention and the way you think about the possibility. You know, I love that you're careful not to say you can't overpromise for everyone, but there is an element of anything is really possible if we are willing to make choices and then do the work to achieve those things. And also we are in kind of control of our own destiny at a certain point, especially when we reach a certain age. And so I thought so much of what you said was just really empowering. And I personally gravitate toward that. I think that that's really more of what I want to see in the world is that positivity and empowerment. Not unrealistic, but very genuine belief that this is possible.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah. And I think also women need to have girlfriends, circles of people that they can share with and be vulnerable with. I think a lot of us, I mean, I have a feeling, I'm gonna guess you and I are similar. I I'd rather help somebody, fix somebody, give to then than ask for help and and be vulnerable and all this thing. Something I've actually having a daughter really kind of opened my heart to vulnerability. Um, you know, see Brene Brown, anybody. Um I mean, please do. Um, but you know, I used to sort of feel like, well, I can't complain because I am so blessed. Like my problems aren't, you know, I know people with such difficult things. Everybody's journey, we have the ups and downs, and it's okay. And I think it's really important also to have other, I mean, I'm very, you know, girls girls. So when I say, and I've got a lot of guy friends too, and I have a husband of 25 years. So, but I'm gonna go my girls, because I say they're my oxygen, and it doesn't have to be a ton of people, but I really hope that women have people they can talk about and be vulnerable with and talk about how they feel. It's, you know, it's so cathartic and it also isn't just cathartic. Often you can figure out ways to move forward in your life through those conversations as opposed to just living in your head.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah. In fact, I think there's actually a lot of data that have emerged over the last five years about longevity implications of women spending time with other women, and that it actually reduces stress and leads to longer, happier lives. That is the other thing that gets me excited about this moment in time, as well as for our daughters for the future. Like seeing these communities where women are coming together, where they have things in common, where there's sort of mission alignment, whether that's community-based organizations, whether it's professional organizations, or whether it's just your local book club. Like I think there is so much more intention around community and bringing women together. And I love that because again, I felt like in my career and kind of coming up the ranks and also in raising kids, sometimes that was difficult. It was centered around, okay, the kids are on a tennis team. And so I became friends with the other moms whose kids were on the tennis team, you know, and I think having these other opportunities to create circles and to get introduced to women who may have things in common is just another element of community building that I think is really exciting for the future. Well, Jennifer, I appreciate everything that you've shared this far. I'm curious now that we've had these conversations, do you still think this wasn't the right show for you?

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Or how are you feeling now? I feel wonderful. I think that talking about sort of the hybrid of work and motherhood and reinvention hopefully will bring something a little different to the table that you are setting that I deserve a place in. And I hope that even anything I said touches one person because that's really what it's about. I know it's a weird thing to be proud of somebody who's a peer, but I'm proud of you for the adjustment you've made in your life. Um I'm thankful for what you're doing for other women, and I really appreciate your friendship and um bringing me to this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Well, I appreciate you being here. And as I said, I am so grateful that we have connected further and the inspiration and motivation you've given me in the conversations that we've had. So thank you, Jennifer. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here today and sharing in this inspiring story from Women I Want You to Know. Please leave a review and share this episode with another woman in your life. And please join the conversation and connect with us on LinkedIn and Instagram and keep fueling the future for female founders and leaders.