Episode 2: Dr. Z's Outlook on Wellness and Happiness in Practice

Health care is demanding and in the most challenging moments of illness, our community looks to us, the caregivers at Enloe Health, not just for treatment, but for hope and healing. 

Host Mehdi Sattari, M.D., Enloe Health’s Medical Director of Wellness, sits down with Steven Zlotowski, M.D., a board-certified emergency medicine physician at Enloe Health.

Zlotowski, or Dr. Z as most people know him, shares how life experiences can deepen empathy, how authenticity fosters trust, how mentors shape a clinician’s voice, and why after more than two decades, it’s the stories and connections, not the clinical “saves,” that continue to bring him fulfillment.

Let us know how you feel about the podcast or share your ideas for wellness and mindfulness. Your input is essential.

Reach Mehdi Sattari, M.D., at mehdi.sattari@enloe.org. 

Transcript

Dr. Z: [00:00:00] I do think to myself in those toughest times in particular, if I in some way made any difference in one person's life today. Well, that's a good day.

Dr. Satari: Healthcare is demanding and in the most challenging moments of illness, our community looks to us, the caregivers at Enlo Health, not just for treatment, but for hope and healing. Hello, I'm Medi Ari, medical Director of wellness. My role was created to help strengthen resilience, support our medical staff, and help us rediscover joy in practice.

Before I introduce my guest today, I want to mention a new bulletin board located in the physician lounge. It's interactive and will become more useful with your input. Joining me today on the podcast is a respective colleague. Dr. Steven Zoltowski, an emergency physician at enlo, [00:01:00] Dr. Z, as many affectionately call him, has been serving Northern California for over 22 years.

He's not only a seasoned clinician, but also a leader. He served as the chair of the COVID Task Force from March of 2020 to March of 2022, where he organized and led weekly interdisciplinary round tables. I had the honor of participating in some of these sessions and saw firsthand his remarkable ability to bring clarity and light during some of the darkest days of COVID beyond his clinical and leadership roles.

Dr. Z's a critical incident stress debriefings, facilitator and author of the inspiring book, love More Reflections from an er, doctor's COVID Journey, and the writer, co-director and executive producer of the short film Faith Gambit. Since October, 2023, he's also served as a National Geographic expedition physician.

He shares all about his fascinating journey into medicine. In my experience and in opinion of a number of Enlo team members, Dr. Z exemplifies [00:02:00] authentic, caring for his patients, and a deep commitment to his own wellbeing, which allows him to show up with presence and caring every day. Thank you for joining me, Dr.

Z. 

Dr. Z: Well, thank you Mandy for that kindnesses of introductions. My pleasure. 

Dr. Satari: Can you share a little bit about your journey in medicine and what drew you to this profession? 

Dr. Z: Well, you referenced that I had a prior career in management consulting, which I did. And you know, I graduated college at 21, ultimately went to medical school when I was 30, when I was 23 years old.

I had a significant back injury, left me for two years intermittently disabled. And I didn't work so much with the physiatrist who overran the practice, so to speak. But there were two physical therapists who I, you know, I, I told them, you, you saved my life. And, uh, so I had this notion of. Of medicine and a transformative experience in my life and what people had done for me.

And I think that [00:03:00] was always there. And then lastly, I suppose I had this idea of the micro and the macro. And if I had tried to make decisions at 21 about medicine, I would've made a much poor decision, I think, in terms of a specialty that was the right one for me. Right. And I remember being in medical school and I was doing a case-based curriculum for the first two years, which really sued me really nicely.

And I remember reading Harrison's, you know, I get a case. Mm-hmm. And I dive into Harrison's or Cecil's, and I think, well, that I must want to be an internist. And I did my internal medicine rotation and, you know, third and fourth year. And I went, no, what, what am I thinking? And then I just loved renal physiology.

I must wanna be a nephrologist. And, uh, no, that wouldn't work for me either. And so the micro and the macro was something that you have to love your job, minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day. And that's the micro and the macro is you also have to be really interested in the body of knowledge, information.

You've gotta wanna read, not because you [00:04:00] have to, to stay abreast of things, but because you want to, you desire, you have a desire to do that. And I would never have been able to frame that at the age of 21, that distinction. And so ultimately my, you know, decision in emergency medicine, you know, fulfilled both of those categories.

So I'd say all three of those somehow collided at the age of 29 when I woke up in a cold sweat after just getting married and told my wife, I think I wanna go to medical school and led to the post-baccalaureate year. 'cause I hadn't done all of my prerequisites for, for taking the MCATs and medical school, et cetera.

Yeah. So that's, 

Dr. Satari: that's really cool. It's funny that you went to that program because some of my favorite people in my medical school actually also went to that BRI program. 

Dr. Z: Okay. 

Dr. Satari: Yeah. It was a really cool program and, and I think, like you said, it brings people from different backgrounds and that maturity of coming into medicine at that point really made a difference.

And they were much more focused and more authentically focused, I would say. 

Dr. Z: Yeah, I mean, I often joke around that [00:05:00] if I knew I was gonna go to medical school at age 30 when I was 21 years old, I would've, I would've played horsed around a lot more and just goofed off and traveled in between. But what were dead ends ultimately were part of the journey.

Dr. Satari: Well said. When you think about your role as a physician, what does authentic caring mean to you? 

Dr. Z: That's a very interesting term, and I gotta be honest, I hadn't really played with that exact, the word authentic means a lot to me. 

Dr. Satari: Right. 

Dr. Z: But authentic, caring, you know, as I think about that, I suppose if I'm doing something that I hope is in the right direction when I'm in a room with people, is that I try to take the pain in my life.

And use it for good in a room. I, I was a pretty decent athlete. Mm-hmm. And, you know, there I am at 23 and I'm ostensibly disabled for, you know, on and off for two years. And, you know, and I try to take that experience and [00:06:00] bring it into the room. I try to take in the challenges my kids have had and bring it into the room that my marriage has had and bring it into the room that my loss of my parents or other loved ones have had.

You know, I've experienced and bring that into the room. And so I, I think about it, it's just, if I can take the challenges in my life and use that as an empathetic source for what I'm doing with somebody when we're together, I suppose that's how I would define it in some respect. Maybe what you're referring to is referring to is authentic, caring.

And I remember my father-in-law got in an accident and we were very close. He was like a father to me. And it was a three month dwindle before he passed. Mm-hmm. And my oldest son at the time was 13 and he asked me one day, how are you focusing at work? 'cause he could see that I was upset and we were going through a lot as a family.

And I said to him, I just, I try to [00:07:00] take what I'm experiencing and I just try to be better in what I do for my job because of it. Right. And that, that, uh, somehow works for me. 

Dr. Satari: That makes a lot of sense to me. You can't really isolate in my personal experience as well, what you've gone through in your life.

And when I've tried to, which everybody tries to at some level, and in the far end you can't overshare either. But there's a happy medium where you show up with all your life experiences to the present moment and then you try to move it forward to the next present moment that hopefully is gonna be better because of your effort.

That makes a lot of sense to me. 'cause you can't, you can't divorce one from the other. 

Dr. Z: No. It's, I'd written on this as you referenced, but there's, you know, pain as a teacher. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: And of course pain is physical, emotional, spiritual. There's so many different aspects to it. And you know, I, I think I've been very fortunate that I've been in a profession where I [00:08:00] get to make something good out of the bad.

I don't know that a lot of other professions would've, would've, uh, given me that opportunity. So I'm grateful for that. 

Dr. Satari: Well said. I like that. I wanna talk a little bit about how did your approach to patient care evolve over time? Was there a turning point or a key experience that shaped your philosophy?

Dr. Z: I think the things that I probably, you know, I talked about that transition from business and of course I probably idealized it at the time when I made the transition. But one of the things that appealed to me was the idea before I even entered that setting. When you're in a room in that space, like nobody can mess with you, right?

Mm-hmm. That, that's this interaction that stands on its own. And it didn't come from a medical family background, so I was just projecting, you know, what I thought the future might hold, but that kind of one-on-one without distraction. So I think the things I always brought that I knew I was [00:09:00] bringing from the beginning was humor, which has been really important to me in my life, and at least I think I'm a funny person.

I don't know. Yeah, anybody else does, but I kind of view the patient room. It's not always appropriate, of course, but you learn, you're to read a room, you, you have conversations with people and I haven't just had so many extraordinary laughing spells with people in rooms. So I continue to love the fact that it's my, it's my stage for standup comedy and, you know, I'm nearer to the much, nearer to the end of my career than I am in the beginning.

And I don't know how I'm gonna deal with losing that stage. It's just so much fun to take. A moment with somebody where, uh, you both, you connect in a way and you realize regardless of all the medical stuff you're doing and you're delivering, that, that in of itself has been, you know, you know, humor is good medicine, right?

Laughter is good medicine, that expression. 

Dr. Satari: Absolutely. 

Dr. Z: So that's one thing. I mean, the other would be as, and you've had more familiarity I with this than with anybody else proudly is [00:10:00] stories have always been really important to me. Yes. And I chose emergency medicine because my apologies to anybody from any other specialty listening.

We actually, we still have the best stories. We hear the entire breadth of life, and you get a chance to laugh and cry and ponder, you know, the wanderer of what we call life. And I'm just so driven by that. I've gotten so much more than I've given in the realm of those stories. And it started literally my first patient encounter as a medical student and.

Joy being a medical senior, you actually have, if you want, you have a lot of time with people. True. There were a bunch of stories from that, but there was one in my, I, I'd highlight my residence because it's actually had long legs. It's been my whole career. Now. There was a, a woman who was 81 years old and she was there with a, a woman friend.

And we, we were just chatting and her husband was not in the emergency department [00:11:00] and asked how long she'd been married. And she said, uh, 62 years. And I said, well, I was at that point, you know, seven or eight years married. Mm-hmm. I said, so what's the secret to being married for 62 years? And I knew that this was unrehearsed.

She's never said it before. It was just spontaneous. And she looked at me and she said, well, every time I look in the mirror, I say to myself, you're not such a great prize either. And that experience with her has led to an entire career. When. I drew the line at 50. If I ask a couple how long they've been married and it's over 50 years, I say I give them the, what's the secret question?

Dr. Satari: Sure. 

Dr. Z: And I have unfailingly gotten answers that have always been permeated with humor and the sentiment of, it's just not that easy. 

Dr. Satari: Right. 

Dr. Z: That real honest humility that she expressed. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: And it has happened virtually every single [00:12:00] time that I've asked that question. And I've been doing this for over quarter century now.

I've asked that question a great many times. That stuff is uh, is what I come and talk about. My wife and kids could narrat tell you anything medical that I've ever done for anybody? But I'm sure they could tell you a lot of human interest stories. So that has just always been a jazz for me, and it's never gone away.

And then I guess the other thing about approach to patient care is I find that. For me at least. A touch is therapeutic. I dunno if you've had this experience, you're sitting at the workstation 

Dr. Satari: Yeah. 

Dr. Z: And somebody puts, comes up to you, Hey me. And they just put your hand, their hand on your shoulder. 

Dr. Satari: Totally.

Dr. Z: And then you realize, boy, I'm holding a lot of tension there. 

Dr. Satari: Absolutely. 

Dr. Z: Can I just relax into that? And, you know, you have to be careful with touch, obviously. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: But the measured thing of gripping somebody's hand or I will often be at, just at the end of the bed. And I often will. It'll be the initial encounter that we're having and I'll say Anything else we need to cover at this moment, uh, any [00:13:00] questions that you might have.

And I'll just stand and I'll put both my hands like on their feet. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: And I, I hope it makes a difference to them. It makes a difference to me. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: And if it makes a difference to me, it's making me better at what I do. So touch has been really important. And I, I would say that the three things I didn't know that, those are things I knew, but things I've learned and evolved with, as you referenced, were sitting, we were course taught.

Supposed to sit down on the stool, it's on the right side of the bed. And then we found out that not every room we go into actually has a stool. Right? And I still rail against that. I want, I want my stools. You know, sitting really does make a difference. Being eye to eye with people sort of lording over them because you're already in this hierarchical role with people.

Sure. They're patient, they're vulnerable, something's going on for them, and you're standing over them. That doesn't really work. So I didn't appreciate that at first, but I've really come to appreciate how important it is. A soft voice would be. The second thing I think I've evolved to learn. I think I've largely [00:14:00] failed at that fairly miserably most of the time.

You know the pandemic, right? We had the N95 mask on and the face shield, and then you realize that so many people who had been somewhat hearing impaired and reading your lips a little bit 

Dr. Satari: yes. 

Dr. Z: Could no longer do that. And I, I just realized, I'm just yelling at people all day long. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: It didn't feel right.

I thought, you know, I'm violating some decibel standard in the workplace. But I had a very fun experience earlier in my career where I felt fine, but I totally lost my voice. I could just whisper like this. I literally had to get right up next to people's ears and just whisper. And in that day I had, you know, older women who just, I felt like they were taking me in as their son or grandson because I was just, I was also just this impaired, injured, vulnerable person.

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: And then there was this really tough guy and it had the exact effect on him. Ah. So I think a soft voice, if you can do it, is great. [00:15:00] Our world isn't always conducive to that because of hearing impairment, because of ambient noise. But as much as possible, I try to remind myself, just talk like this and not like this.

Sure. I would say I've got a lot of progress still to make it just, habits die hard and the pandemic didn't help. Then the last thing I would say is I evolved to always, I always introduce myself as, you know, Dr. Steve Ledowski. And, uh, many, many years ago, I just, I introduced myself as I said, hi, I am Steve.

I'm your doctor today. But sometimes I'll just say, hi, I am Steve. Because usually, unless you're meeting the ambulance, as they come in, somebody has been in the room and say, you know, Dr. Z will be with you. That's probably how it comes out. Right, right. Or Dr. Oscopy with you, and I've got my badge and it's got my name and it's got the little thing emboldened in red in capital letters it says, doctor.

So they don't really need to hear that. And I've, I've never used doctor before my name. Sure. I never put MD after my name. Only in an [00:16:00] official medical correspondence would I ever give off that I'm a doctor. I'm not title driven. And I think for me, at least, because I am being authentic to who I am, that when I say Hi, I am Steve.

Hi, bill. I'm Steve. You know your doctor. I'm gonna be taking care of you today. That really works for me. People wanna push away against that. The society has been entrained that they're supposed to call me a doctor, but I can see it sometimes when they go, well thanks Steve. Right. And that's a different relationship for me, and I like how it feels.

Dr. Satari: That makes a lot of sense. You know what I hear from you is that it really is a sacred space. Yeah. And there's, we have like this incredible opportunity to be with people in unique ways. Whether it's like touching them, hearing their, you know, heartfelt stories of 50 plus years of marriage. And then also like how we operate in that sa, in that sacred space has a way to really change it and animate it for the [00:17:00] better.

You know, like you were saying, how your voice just losing your voice, even a tough guy just kind of got disarmed. 

Dr. Z: Right. 

Dr. Satari: I remember at one point I had a knee surgery and. I didn't want to like, touch my crutches because I, I couldn't put weight on it just because my, I couldn't clean the handle of my crutches.

So I used the wheelchair and I wheeled myself around with my foot with one leg. That way I, my hands kept clean at least. Mm-hmm. Because I was kind of worried about that issue. And I remember people really responded positively to that. 'cause it's like, here's this person showing up to, to care for me. And, you know, I would just explain to 'em what's going on, you know?

Right. But that makes a lot of sense to me. 

Dr. Z: You know, authenticity, you have to, everybody can't show up the same way because that's not necessarily authentic to who they are. Right. And you've actually had to chance to see some storytelling, but, and in my prior life in consulting, I used to do coaching for people about public speaking.

Dr. Satari: Right. 

Dr. Z: And I used to say, so what I do as a public speaker, if you happen to, like what I do, if whatever your take is on how I [00:18:00] do 

Dr. Satari: right 

Dr. Z: that job, I'm not gonna tell you that you should do what I do. Because what I do, I feel is genuine for me. It's consistent with all these fibers of my being. You have to do things that are consistent with your fibers, your being.

So what works for you is maybe not gonna work for me and vice versa. So some of these things that I, you know, I was just sharing there, uh, as you're saying, if you're consistent and congruent with who you are, that shows up. People get that. Yes. If you're not, people get that. You're phony. 

Dr. Satari: Yeah. It really makes a lot of sense.

How do you feel this approach has sustained your joint medicine? 

Dr. Z: I've had a lot of time to think about that lately as I sharing, you know, kind of toward the end of the career as opposed to the beginning. It's story driven. Yeah. Makes me really happy. If I come home from a day where there's just things that happened in the room, I am, you know, I'll come back and that's a, that's a [00:19:00] great day.

Yeah. And then just also that. Element of, uh, comedy. If it's been a good day of comedy, I'm really happy. Uh, maybe, maybe I'm just weird early on in the career, yes. In emergency medicine you can do a fair amount of chest beating and there's intensity and stuff like that. At this stage, it just doesn't mean anything to me anymore.

I'm not, I mean, I want to practice good medicine. I want to be a good medical provider, but having made a great medical decision, having made a great save is less important to me. Maybe having a, having helped somebody or a family take a step towards letting go and dying is actually more fulfilling to me now than a save because that's a story to me.

Right. Whereas the save is my medical care. 

Dr. Satari: Right. 

Dr. Z: And I [00:20:00] hope and believe I still provide good medical care. What fulfills and sustains me is no longer the, the hardcore of emergency medicine. It's just the connection element 

Dr. Satari: makes a lot of sense. And actually, you know, this is kind of going back a little bit curious about like, what are the, were their mentors role models who influence how you show up for your patients?

Dr. Z: Yeah. The, well, I think there's so many along the way, right? When we do what we do, and I've generally believed, and I think I fairly decently apply, although at times, certainly imperfectly, you know, you try to take the best from people and not their worst, right? So there's, if you, if that's your approach, you can learn from just about anybody, right?

Totally. You, uh, there things, but I would say if I had a mentor, certainly my residency training, it was a guy named Leo Volmer, he was one of the attendings. He really validated my, my interests that medicine should have a lot of humor in it. 

Dr. Satari: Right. 

Dr. Z: And that stories were [00:21:00] really important 'cause we had a lot of belly laughs with patients together.

Dr. Satari: Sure. 

Dr. Z: And then there was one other time that I, you know, vividly remember, and I got to actually see him about a year and a half ago and we had four hours together just laughing and crying. And he both was a mentor and he, and gave me that encouragement, uh, that yeah, you're, this way of doing things is a good way.

So I, I credit him for that. And I would say in one of the evolutionary things, uh, Bruce Aiken, who was a longtime colleague in the emergency department, and when I gave his a retirement eulogy at the holiday party, I'd asked him to just kind of send some information to me. Then I talked to him and then I talked to some people about him.

And Bruce had been a primary care provider for, if I recall correctly, about 14 years in Chico before he ultimately went into practice in the emergency department. And. There were just several people who said that [00:22:00] he was the most beloved primary care provider in Chico. And I heard that from multiple people.

And back in those days, we had a different department than we do now. And you know, the thing about our current department is you never really get to see me practice medicine, and I never really get to see you practice medicine. 

Dr. Satari: The whole pod thing. 

Dr. Z: Yeah, exactly. But back then we got to see each other. 

Dr. Satari: Yes.

Dr. Z: And Bruce was always sitting in the room. Bruce was always calm and soft with people. So that, aside from my laryngitis stint, that soft voice that sitting with people, he was a real role model. Got it. And I don't think I can touch him still to this day in that regard. But there's always hope. Right? 

Dr. Satari: It's always a progress.

I mean that's, that's the really key thing. And like you said earlier on. You know, you have to show up who you really are and everybody has their own [00:23:00] unique point of view and offerings. You know, I was watching one of those shorts and it was a very wise person and said, you know, this person came from a very religious point of view.

And he said that the creator has put something in you that's wholly unique and that you're here to manifest it. And like sometimes in medicine you, you get to manifest it in a very unique setting in that sacred space where people let you touch them, they let you hear their stories and you, you just show up as who you are and not Aiken.

Yeah, that's really cool. But also just picking up from that other person is huge. So speaking of difficult things, I mean, medicine can be demanding. What challenges have you faced for maintaining a caring presence? 

Dr. Z: I probably would put sleep deprivation at the top of the list. I never slept well after night shifts.

I dunno how to nap. And you know, that takes a toll. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: So when you're really [00:24:00] sleep deprived, best doesn't always show up 

Dr. Satari: a hundred percent. 

Dr. Z: I think I'd, I'd probably put that, you know, right up there. I don't know if I have a second or third at the moment. That's, that's totally 

Dr. Satari: reasonable. I think dovetailing into sleep is how much clinical hours I find.

I do has a lot to do with how well I can listen to people. So I, I get it. How did you overcome these challenges? What specific strategies or mindsets, mindset shifts helped? 

Dr. Z: So, I, I, I first started working in Northern California in, uh, Redding. And at Red Bluff I was part of, uh, a group there. And, but in 2001 I started to do, uh, mercenary night work, nice enlo.

And then I did that for a little over two years. And then in 2023, I joined, uh, our group. Full-time. So I've been coming up on June, it'll be 25 years, you know, that I've been at the hospital. But since [00:25:00] 2003 full-time. At that time it was, you know, it was a total different world, right? Yes. Uh, there were like eight or nine of us.

We had four shifts. Now we have 10 and 11 shifts. Right. And I, and people worked a lot of shifts and it, so the time when I came over and I was full time, there were only 10 shifts available, 

Dr. Satari: right. 

Dr. Z: A month. That for, that's how we structure our work world, right? 

Dr. Satari: Sure. 

Dr. Z: Our commitment for a month, plus or minus, whatever the needs may be.

And I remember Bill Volker, who was the director at the time, he goes, well, we've got a full-time offer for you as a shareholder. You've been around for a couple years, but it's only 10 shifts. I said, okay. And I fully expected that when more shifts opened up, that I would grab 'em and I never did. And one way to deal with sleep deprivation issues and every impact it has on your personal life has work a little bit less.

I also had been around enough to know that I worked, I'd seen, uh, three guys I worked with at my prior job, so to speak. And they were 10 years older than me, [00:26:00] basically. Right. And I remember looking at them and I went, they've aged more than three years in these last three years. And I'm 10 years younger than they are.

And I think this is a cautionary tale, right? So I've always just worked less than I think most people my age would've worked. And I always thought that was worth it from a personal health standpoint, a family standpoint, time with my kids' standpoint. And that the things I value the most and what I like to do and how I spend my time actually don't require much money.

You know, backpacking costs a lot of money. As you know, I have a 2000 Honda Civic, don't care at all about cars and what I drive, you know? So things like that, it just sort of worked for me. So that was definitely part of it. And then. There have been times where, you know, I've had ebbs and flows in my career, uh, times where I've been so happy.

I'd say I'm very happy in my career right now, but there have been times that maybe [00:27:00] you've experienced them, where the idea of opening my car door and opening the door to the hospital just seemed like climbing a mountain, and I honestly can't tell you why. I know that comes on and I can't tell you always why it goes away.

Sure. These ebbs and flows. I just, I just don't know. But I've experienced them and maybe other people have throughout their career. I, I've met two people in my entire career who do what we do who haven't had somewhat of a love hate relationship with emergency medicine. 

Dr. Satari: Sure. 

Dr. Z: Because of the, some inherent challenges and et cetera, but also because of the things we get to do, and so I admire them.

I'm not sure I fully understand them, but I admire them. I think the other way is there's a. I'm no sage, but there's a Talmudic expression you probably would be familiar with. But whoever saves one life, saves the world. And in my lowest times, I don't think I'm saving a life all the time, in fact. 

Dr. Satari: [00:28:00] Sure. 

Dr. Z: You know, we're, we're not a television show.

We are actually not saving lives every room in every day. Totally. We're doing many other things far more often, and we're not saving the world, so to speak. But I, I do think to myself in those toughest times in particular, if I in some way made any difference in one person's life today, well, that's a good day.

And again, well, I wouldn't feel that in so many other professions. So in the times when it's been, I don't know if I can really open the door and walk into the hospital, like I'm just not enjoying this right now. And I've had probably a couple, two, two or three times where I have its cycles where I've felt that.

Over the whole career. That's been a little bit of a mantra for me when I walk in. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: Just, and that, that could be just as simple as, I have nothing to offer somebody other than to say, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time right now, and just let that sit in the room and see their eyes, register it.

[00:29:00] That to me, might make my day in their day a little better. And so that's been a sve for those difficult times, but I, I have no idea of how my couple colleagues have. Somehow hell never weathered those troughs. 

Dr. Satari: I hear you. Just to kind of recap what you were mentioning, I mean, one, one of the things you, you described and, and in emergency minutes is a little bit different than all the other practices in some ways, but there is a certain amount of time that we spend at work and there's a certain time we spent outside of work and to me, I've learned over the 20 years that people who consistently have had a long career have a sense of what their capacity to work is.

Where is the point at which they begin to have a more difficult time to engage with the core of the experience, which is really hearing those stories. 

Dr. Z: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Satari: And then if you were to push that further and work even more, then you start to get disgruntled. And then recently, the other thing that really struck me as you were [00:30:00] saying, your, your point of connection was that I was listening to a, a really wise person.

And, and his point was that that really the difference between burnout is the, the, the remedy to burnout is service. That when you show up to be of service to others, it almost seems to open up a channel where, and a positive energy, if you would, is the way I see it gets to fill the room. Yeah. That you've shown up to be of service.

And people sense that, and maybe the service you have is not saving their life, but it's just acknowledging that this rheumatologic disorder. They lived with for so long is kind of a bear, it's kind of a crappy thing that they have to deal with. And you just hear like, oh, I can't fix it today as an ER doc, but I can see how you're suffering.

Dr. Z: Yeah. 

Dr. Satari: And that moment where sometimes it's amazing how it kind of lifts me up. 

Dr. Z: Yeah. And I love the way that you frame that as service, because I often thought, you know, if I were a, a medical [00:31:00] school admissions officer and everybody in their interview said, oh, I want to help people that, you know, I'd have to take my own life if I did that every day.

Because help and service are really different things. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: And I love the way that you frame that. And there's so many different ways as I see it, to be of service that are very different than how I would define help. And when you see it that way, and you look at any of those as being potentially gratifying for you and of value to someone else.

That's really huge. And the other thing you talked about that you referenced when you, we were just chatting here, was if my kid, I, it's been actually interesting to see, I have three sons. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: It's been interesting. I've talked with them over the time and I, I've evolved more and more over my career. I, I drink water when I'm at the hospital, but I don't really eat much of anything.

And you know, we can have pretty long days and I'm actually not hungry, but my [00:32:00] kids, I've tried to make a distinction to help them understand the difference between working hard and being a workaholic. And I, what I've shared this to them is, you know, in every element of my life when I was in consulting, when I've been in medicine, I'm a very hard worker.

Dr. Satari: Right. 

Dr. Z: When I'm on, that's my focus. I am working, yes, I'm the playful banter and all the other things that you have that are part of collegiality and enjoyment and being with other people, but a workaholic, oh, I could've worked a lot more in medicine, so. You know, I think that's, that's a distinction that's been important to me.

And also just remind myself of at at times that I, you could throw yourself in and do an, an awful lot more hours, but when I'm there, yeah, I'm on. That's, and I think that's my job to be, 

Dr. Satari: yeah. Show ups ready. 

Dr. Z: Exactly. On time and ready. 

Dr. Satari: Makes sense. What sustains your enthusiasm for medicine today? 

Dr. Z: You know, one other thing that actually happened really this year was [00:33:00] I really started to reflect on something that had always been there, but I don't know I'd ever framed it.

Dr. Satari: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Z: I think it's not political to say that our society has become more polarized. Right. And that there's a lot of hate going around and it comes from every direction and toward every direction. Well said. So I'm not singling out anybody. 

Dr. Satari: Well 

Dr. Z: said. It's just the whole thing as a maelstrom of people hating on other people.

And everybody's playing a part in it. I really took this notion of the kindness of a stranger, which is what I think and hope I have been doing over a quarter century is being a kind stranger, not, uh, and it's not about medical care, right? It's just about kindness and in such a difficult environment as we find ourselves living.

If I can walk that walk, [00:34:00] if I can show up with the same kindness to everybody knowing that probably half the people are on some different end of the spectrum than I am, again, without declaring any spectrums, we, that's the way the world is now. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: You know, people are on in different camps and I've been reading, uh, a lot of Aldi Huxley this past year.

One of the things I came across as sharing was. He had a quotation that said, it's a little embarrassing. He was a phenomenal philosopher. Yeah. And he said, it's a little embarrassing that after 45 years of study, perhaps the only wisdom I give to can give to people is to be a little bit kinder. And to find that this year, to find his words.

In this year, when separately I had been saying, well, what is it? What is it that I can really do? How do I, how do I [00:35:00] deliver on who I think I am and how do I keep myself sane? How do I think that I'm walking the right path? Yes. Has really been about kindness to a stranger. And it's funny, we do have continuity of care and we're just innocent.

Although people, we do, we don't. But most of the time, people are strangers. Yes. And you have to develop that rapport quickly. 

Dr. Satari: Yes. 

Dr. Z: And to think that I've come home and say. Somebody might think I was kind. That's, uh, I hope that's true, but that's would nothing could be more fulfilling to me right now than somebody going home and saying, I had this interaction and the doctor was so kind.

I hope it's happening. I don't know. 

Dr. Satari: Right. 

Dr. Z: But 

Dr. Satari: if it were, that would probably be my greatest gratification right now. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. And I think, I really like what you said, that the world right now has a real bias towards tribalism. Yeah. Period. [00:36:00] For whatever reasons that we don't need to get into right now.

I, and I think knowing that bias is there and having our actions compensate back towards where we feel is more, I don't know, appropriate for us to be willfully, I think is a, is a good habit nowadays. 

Dr. Z: Yeah. 

Dr. Satari: So what are the habits or rituals that reconnect with your sense of purpose when things get tough?

Dr. Z: When I hear that question, I think, I think about weed Boggs and eating chicken wings. If you're familiar with the Boston Red Sox Hall of Fame, third baseman. I don't know that I've got any Cool, uh, to be honest with you, you know, I, I've had some other health issues. I was an avid cyclist as I know you are, and I really regret that.

I have not been able to share that with you. But I suppose that was my meditation in a lot of respects. And it's fun to cycle with people. But [00:37:00] I used to cycle mostly by myself. Right. And I, my goal was that I would, the only thing that would be in my mind was either some of the pain, 'cause I used to love, I'm a climber Yeah.

By nature. But more just, I. You know, when you live in a beautiful place and you're on a quiet road by yourself, I was just, I just wanna, anything that I see, I just, that's all I want in my brain is how I'm processing the sight, the smell, the sound, or whatever. I would say I was a fairly abysmal failure and achieving that, and there was always an aspiration, but I never quite got there.

So I, that was it. And I say I'm still looking for a substitute to that. I don't think I found it. 

Dr. Satari: That makes a lot of sense from my personal experience. When you were talking about cycling, I think obviously we both love cycling. Unfortunately, you're not able to do it in the same way it used to, but the thing that, the core of it for me is that the activity for me [00:38:00] personally has to have a certain level of intensity that matches the intensity of the energy.

Whether it's like being overwhelmed, tired, fatigued that I'm trying to get rid of. There's an intensity to the climb. Like I have this, I remember one time climbing, I love climbing as well. This thought came to my head. Demons don't climb. And what I mean by demons is not like a real demon, but it's all the thoughts that just chew away at you negatively.

There's a certain point on a climb where you either have to pedal and breathe or think about those things and there's no other choice. You have to put one down. And I just chose climbing. 

Dr. Z: Right. 

Dr. Satari: And getting to do that intensity has a real way of like washing away the BS that a shift left in my soul.

Dr. Z: Yeah. 

Dr. Satari: But it's 

Dr. Z: a, it's that form of presence, right? 

Dr. Satari: Yeah. 

Dr. Z: That, that, again, I would not give myself high marks on Sure. On average. But when you have those [00:39:00] moments, you know, you've had them 

Dr. Satari: clear. That's the, that's awesome. Obviously we have a lot of challenges. How do you balance the demands of work with your personal life and.

Kind of dig into it a little bit on a focus level for the younger crowd. What does this look like when your kids were younger and living at home? 

Dr. Z: Well, it was certainly, I referenced that I, I just made the decision to work less, right? And as I think it's true in many branches of medicine, I mean, I mean that's just a linear trade off with income, right?

Yeah. If I work at 10th less, I make about a 10 less. And so that was, you know, certainly a decision that I think was beneficial for the family. Especially since we have, you've probably been asked this question, right? So what's your schedule like, right? People ask you. And it was like, well, my schedule is like, I have no schedule.

That's our life. And you know, as a group we've prioritized on, here's the time I request off and we do an outstanding job of giving [00:40:00] people the time, the request off. And then whatever I get is my schedule. I just go, thank you very much. 'cause I've already met the highest bar of what I wanted, which is I got this time.

So I don't really care how, quote, crummy or not crummy by the rest of my schedule may look based on anybody else's. Like, this is what I got, fine. But when you have no rhythm or routine, the only way to have for me to have had more time when the kids were younger was working less. Because when I was working, I was, it was chaotic and I wasn't a consistent presence at dinner, as I'm sure you've done.

You know, you, when you're not working, you pick up your kids from school. I got to do some basketball coaching. You know, just a short season where I would, the one time I would request off was, you know, Saturday mornings and I could work the night shift or whatever it was. So that was a huge part of it.

And uh, I'd say now my kids are all out of the house. You know, I've started to do some travel medicine, so that's been a very fortuitous development in my life [00:41:00] and allows me to quote practice medicine unquote, in a. Just a very different environment where it's really about 85% customer service and 15% medicine.

But when people need you, you know, I can be in somebody's room for half an hour with them mm-hmm. Sitting on the other of their bed while, you know, we're talking about X, Y, z, what we're gonna do and what the plan is and how I'll follow up with them and things like that. So, you know, that's been nice to be able to pivot to some of that.

I've been within our pod system, you know, I've been doing for going on almost two years, I've been doing, you know, shift that people would say I have less acuity to them. You know, I had just the other day I had a, a person who came in and they were down and they needed to be intubated and what's the cause and all that stuff.

And I did have a little of the, you know, yeah. That's, that's pretty cool rush. Mm-hmm. And you have to make good decisions and you have to [00:42:00] execute them well. But I would say that. Not having that be every single day or many fewer days is a good way to sort of make a soft exit. We've seen that in other colleagues who have, you know, done that before we used to have something, it was really just a pure, kind of a little six bed fast track.

Several guys entered their career there and I, I'm not familiar with somebody who, who just, you know, within the last short period of time got their nursing degree and came on to the ER as a nurse and was talking about I love to be in POD one because, and I was like, as you should be. Right. You know?

'cause when you just new it something, yes, you want it to be in with the sickest people, with the people who are crashing with the, any and everything that can be thrown at you. And about five years ago I started to talk with people on all different trades. You know, I'm not there yet, but what advice would you give me for retirement?

And the two most consistent pieces of advice that I got [00:43:00] were. Work less. Phase yourself out, don't go cold Turkey. And two, see if you can reduce the stress level of the work that you do. And I have found those both to be valuable pieces of advice. I'm very fortunate to be in a situation where I've actually been able to implement both of them.

Not everybody gets to do that in many walks of life. And then I've also, with that however, has had come the struggle of, I'm giving up a part of myself. 

Dr. Satari: Sure. 

Dr. Z: Uh, more about the, the acuity part than the, uh, how much I'm working part and the, you know, that's, that's been tough, that there's been a little bit of tough part there to swallow, but I still feel that their advice was sound.

And I still feel that taking their advice and being able to implement it has been a wise decision. So I think that's, you know, probably what I would say in terms of that. I guess the last thing I would [00:44:00] say is that, and no offense to us and what we do or anybody else in medicine, but medicine is, uh, unless perhaps you're doing some research, is what I would consider staggeringly, uncreative.

When we walk on the room, people are asking us to practice evidence-based medicine. Right? That's what we always talk about. 

Dr. Satari: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Z: We're not asking someone to just invent stuff in a room that has got nobody's ever done before. Always. There's creativity in how you work with people, 

Dr. Satari: right. 

Dr. Z: How you connect with people.

But natural medical practice in our realm of community, ostensibly practice of emergency medicine, it's not creative and I found it very important all along the journey, but even more now to find other creative outlets and allow the time for them. And some of that, you know, I'm kind of fascinated with the big ideas.

I kind of always been a conceptual person. I happened to be on one of these travel National Geographic trips this summer, and one of the experts I was [00:45:00] traveling with as a, as a Glaciologist 

Dr. Satari: Wow. 

Dr. Z: And was talking about their PhD doctoral research and was overseas and was in a rural area of a country and was talking with villagers about what it meant to them and how they were coping with the re, the receding glaciers and the presupposition in the, in her mind was, well, it's gonna mean that summer's gonna have less drinking water, or less, you know, irrigation for crops or what might be the impact of heavy metals that can get stored in glaciers and they're released or flooding risks if a glacial dam breaks.

You know, that was all the stuff the scientist was thinking. Sure. And the answer that she got from multiple villagers was that, that the glaciers are what kept the evil spirits up in the mountains. Whoa. And that all the things that we were scientifically attributing [00:46:00] and the implications of receding glaciers for them it was, it was a religious, spiritual twist, and it had implications for community and their resilience and their own spirituality and that kind of stuff.

Boy, I just find that so exciting, and that's not what we get in medicine in that same way, you know, I've been fortunate enough to be able to, to pivot to things like that, and then somebody says something and I just, I'm like a kidney candy shop. I just circle, wow. Now, whoa. How do, what do I do with that?

Right? How do I start to ruminate on that? And because that's again, you know, big ideas and how do you kind of creatively link one thing to another or do something creative with It has not been something that I think that what we do has offered that much. Day to day and now I'm finding I just need it more and more.

Yeah. I think that's another thing that, [00:47:00] you know, helps me kind of keep the balance finding those outlets. 

Dr. Satari: That makes a lot of sense. And, and just to recap, one of the things that you mentioned really resonated with me is that time with your family is probably, I guess time is the most precious commodity we have.

Yeah, it is the most precious commodity period. And that really came into focus with me during COVID where I was like, oh, okay. I could show up and not be alive in a week from now. How I interact with my family during this week is pretty important. Once I made that switch, it seemed like it flowed from there.

'cause it's like, oh, okay, well maybe COVID is not what it used to be in 2020, but it's, there's still just life's happenstance. So that time is a really interesting notion and to really prize it. 

Dr. Z: Yeah, and it's interesting how, I mean, we. As much as anybody should know about the fragility of life. 

Dr. Satari: Well 

Dr. Z: said.

We shouldn't have needed a pandemic. Right. To teach us even more. And yet I had the same [00:48:00] experiences. 

Dr. Satari: Yeah. 

Dr. Z: And you reference, you know, a book that when the pandemic happened. 

Dr. Satari: Yeah. 

Dr. Z: I had, and listen, there's a lot, and people will have all variations of just how bad was the disease and everything. Fine. And I accept all that, but it was certainly an opportunity, regardless of what I thought, to be reconnected with the fragility of life.

Yes. Not just yours, but other people and people you care about. And that became my mantra was, you know, how do I love more in every direction? That was my thing because that helped me recognize, A, what I was doing, and B, that. Boy, it's routed pathetic. I needed this reminder because I get to see life and death every day.

And so, you know, clearly I'm pretty flawed that I even needed this reminder. But it was a, it was a good reminder and it, it was sustained enough. And then, you know, walking around with the Halloween costumes on of gowns and masks and shields, et cetera, you know, certainly reinforced it. [00:49:00] Nicely said. What advice would you give to a colleague who wants to bring 

Dr. Satari: more joy and presence into their practice?

Dr. Z: I'll probably sound a little bit like a broken record, but I would offer to, and again, people may certainly be doing this, but to come home and tell a loved one. Something about a story that enriched you from your workplace. And it's not, and it's nothing medical. It's not about what you did or anything else, you know, in the world of storytelling, I was, when I first started getting into it, I was at a storytelling festival and I attended a workshop by a professional storyteller.

And he says something that's really struck that when you stand up to tell the story, never be the hero of your own story. And that doesn't mean you can't, obviously it's your personal story, so you're in the story. That doesn't mean you can't have parts where you know, you look okay in that story, but that there should be humility and that it should be in some respects, [00:50:00] palpable.

And I might, if I may just share one with you, this, it's been coming up for me, a late of late. So, and a few years back I had, I thought I was gonna take a sabbatical six months. I was gonna hike, uh, Tawa, which is kind of like the Pacific Crest Trail of New Zealand. And that was really important to me because I had planned to move to New Zealand back when I was 23 and had that back injury.

And two years later when my life kind of resurfaced, things had just changed and it never happened. And I always felt like I was supposed to be there and live my life there. And so this was redemption. I'm gonna go. Do this. And I had a patient who was a C3 quadriplegic, and I think you've done what I've done for long enough.

People ask me if I could do one thing, fix one thing in medicine, I would say spinal cord injuries. I've seen a lot of people with quadriplegic injuries and paraplegic injuries. And if your experiences have been like mine, you see people ham them with extraordinary grace [00:51:00] and you see people who never get over it and their life spirals.

Dr. Satari: Well said. 

Dr. Z: And I have now come to the point where I've been planning this trip and I realized I'm not gonna be doing it. I'm not gonna be doing this hike. 'cause a health issue had come up and, but he, he was in the room and he was in his mid forties and he was so grounded and I just sensed that I could ask this question, which I don't always feel in that circumstance to ask.

I just said, so may I ask, how long ago did it happen? He proceeded to tell me a story of when he was 17, so a lot of years of his, earlier in his life that he got pushed down the stairs. Wow. By an unknown assailant still doesn't know who he is. And the way he expressed it was just, and it was just, it was fairly overwhelming.

I was sitting in this moment of like having a little nice little pity party for myself. 

Dr. Satari: Sure. 

Dr. Z: I've got this thing that's so me, so meaningful to me. I'm not gonna get to do it. Oh my gosh. You know, life is so [00:52:00] unfair and I'm in this room with him and he shares that and I, and I just start crying, not just for his loss, but for what I'm, of course, also how it's resonating in my life in that moment.

Dr. Satari: Yeah. 

Dr. Z: And I kind of, through the tears and sobs, I say, you know, you are a true inspiration, a triumph of the human spirit. And he smiles at me and he nods, which I kind of realize is about the full extent of what he can express. Right. He goes, God is good. And you know, I'm not a deeply religious person. I don't probably even have to put deeply in that sentence.

And I appreciate that sometimes people's faith helps them get through things, but no matter how much faith you have, not everybody's able to execute like this guy executed. And, and I certainly wouldn't be able to, you know, I certainly wouldn't be able to have been given his lot in life and almost 30 years later have that [00:53:00] exchange with somebody the way that he did.

And I, you know, I think about him not infrequently. I think about that interaction, how, what he gave me and how I still think about it. So I guess if I were to give the advice, I'd say, you know, what are the experiences where you go outta the room and you go, wow, you know, that person is gonna stay with me in my life.

And this is what I heard or learned from them. I, I heard him. I don't think I am capable constitutionally of getting to where he has gotten, but it continues to move me. And if, again, if our advice, have something that moves you we're, you know, you're not the hero 

Dr. Satari: stories. And don't be the hero 

Dr. Z: somewhat that it keeps coming back, doesn't it?

Dr. Satari: No, that's, that's on point. It makes a lot of sense. That's a powerful story and I love that. The idea of, of encouraging people to really glean from their day the real story, the human [00:54:00] stories, and then sharing it with their loved ones. Because for one thing, it's not HIPAA issues, it's not medical. Right.

But it's deeply humanistic. And I look at the ER sometimes as it's kind of a vortex of, to use a funny term, but it's a vortex of bad karma. Like, you know, you either got a hangnail, you gotta cut you, you know, you gotta a dowel thrown at you at high speed and it went right through your chest. Any number of different weird things that happen to you, we get to be there.

But to glean something from that, that's, that is powerful is the core human story. And for us not to be the hero and to sit back and watch it. Yeah. Makes sense. And I guess this is somewhat similar, if you feel you wanna add something to, if, if you have one practical tip or mantra for sustaining wellness in medicine, what would it be?

Dr. Z: I don't know that I've got any wisdom to begin with, but anything more than I've shared, uh, 

Dr. Satari: gotcha. 

Dr. Z: You know, again, those are the, you know, the things [00:55:00] I've shared I think are the things that have. Perfect. You know, sustain me. 

Dr. Satari: Looking ahead, what excites you most about the future of medicine and your role in it?

Dr. Z: Yeah, it's such an interesting time to be asked that question in several respects because I'm so closer to the end of mm-hmm. Of doing emergency medicine. I, in the beginning, I suppose part of it is no one to step away. And I've been asking this question of myself a lot lately, which is that when you do something less intensely or frequently as the way we do it, and yet you're in the milieu that we're in, how much can you cut back?

Uh, we had a, another colleague, Ken Fleming, and he's, I've learned from Ken a great deal. He didn't shift his pretty focus, but he was like, I, I've cut back the number of shifts. I worked right over time. And I remember asking him, so what's, what's the low bar? What's the lowest that you can do and still do what we do?

And he, he said, six shifts a month. Then as he got closer to the actual retirement date, I think he upped it to eight. [00:56:00] Got it. But what I think he was expressing is we don't get to have an off day. And I have been wrestling a lot with, make sure you walk away before you think there's gonna be an off day.

And that's a very humbling consideration because you have to be brutally honest with yourself, with just the fact that A, you're not working as much, or B, I'm doing these travel trips, so I've got a block of time that I'm away. And c as we get older, there every study that ever will look at, you know, there's cognitive decline, right.

And I don't think I'm in any dementia category yet, but our brains have been slowly sliding back for quite some time after, you know, whatever the peak is. So I'm, I'm, I'm pretty aware of that and trying to be honest with it. And I think. That has maybe some applicability to anybody at any stage of what they're doing, and certainly to think about in the future as they get [00:57:00] a little closer to the side of their, uh, career that as I'm on.

But it's, it's been painful introspection. 

Dr. Satari: Got it. You know, in terms of, I definitely have, I can just honestly tell you that, uh, there's a real trend in ageism in our world as well, and I've been really fortunate that I was taught early on to like really listen to the people, the whole spectrum of people, whether it's the younger people and the older people that are doing what you're doing.

And I guess one thing I would just say is that if you see anybody making shifts in their career to be there a little bit less or what have you, take the time to spend time with them and learn from them because they've done something right. They're doing something right, which is that they've not only had a long career.

But that they're willfully trying to find a balance and that person is gonna be a fund of knowledge about what are the hiccups, what are the [00:58:00] obstacles, how do you maintain and sustain a longstanding career? And from just on a very, um, selfish reason, I would just say, I hope I get to practice with you for many years.

Dr. Z: That's kind 

Dr. Satari: simple. 

Dr. Z: That's very kind of you. Yeah. I think it's, you know, there's all kinds of talks about generational shifts. There always have been, of course, yeah. Generational shifts, you know, as you get a little bit older and, and you're younger than I am, but you're also, you know, there's people younger than you, right.

Is not just seeing yourself as the potential of being a mentor to somebody, but, you know, hoping that people will seek out mentorship. 

Dr. Satari: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Z: Now, I have found that there's not. People are not overall that good at that. And then you asked an earlier question in this interview was, you know, who are, who have been mentors?

Dr. Satari: Yeah. 

Dr. Z: And I, I somehow stumbled. I had a challenging relationship with my father and I, I somehow stumbled along for many decades of my life. And if you'd asked me that question, I would've said, well, I don't think I've ever really had a mentor, although I, I, I think I [00:59:00] really wanted one. 

Dr. Satari: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Z: And when it was in my later twenties, there was a guy I worked with, this was back in my business and consulting career, 18 years, my senior, and became the first really deep true mentor of my life.

And just on so many respects, we were on a business trip together. I was driving and I was sharing with him, I had these thoughts of leaving business and going consulting and I was 29 years old and I felt like if I don't do it now, I'll never do it because I was so old. Right. 29. 'cause I was young and stupid.

I thought that that was true. And he's sitting in the car passenger. And he goes, and I knew he had changed from being a, a, a university professor and going into business. And he said, yeah, I thought that was true at exactly your age when I was 29. And I thought, this man who was my mentor, he has validated me.

Dr. Satari: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Z: It turns out that when he said that there was a pause and then he said, and then I realized that was complete bullshit. [01:00:00] And when I was in third year medical school at the age of 51, he suddenly passed away. And I have a storytelling at a festival that I've done about him, but yeah, I, I still miss, he, he was, you know, that first true mentor and you know, you hope as you get older, you learn about the ways of the world and they maybe have something to offer and that, but simultaneously people have to want the offering.

Yes. We'll see how it unfolds. I hope that I've done it some, I hope that there'll be some more. Absolutely. You're doing it too, and I, and I, I, I can see that myself. 

Dr. Satari: Thank you. Yeah. And I'm hoping that the work that we do in this podcast and everything else that we do well and wellness is, as I mentioned, to really mind the collective wisdom and life experience of our, all, all our medical staff people have come to hear.

And we have an incredible community and like we get to show up and do work alongside each other, but oftentimes in the, in [01:01:00] the middle of the day, we don't have a chance to really delve deep into the, the stories of finding that mentorship at the age of 29, 29 that you mentioned, but hopefully we get to bring it out in this context.

And I'm, I'm looking forward to more people sharing that with us. And I'm here to listen and hopefully reach out to people in that way. Thank you so much, C. 

Dr. Z: So honored you thought to include me in your process. Thank you. 

Dr. Satari: Thank you so much for your time. Let us know how you feel about this space. Share your ideas for wellness and mindfulness.

Your input is essential to shaping this journey like we just talked about. Please tell us what's the best way to communicate with you. What format works best, email, podcast, something else. What ideas do you have to strengthen resilience and joy in practice? Be sure to check out and try the new bulletin board material.

It is interactive, and then send your feedback anytime to medi dot sattari@enlo.org. Together let's work towards a healthier, more connected medical community [01:02:00] and thank you for your time.