Episode #2 Bearing the Weight: Understanding Hidden Trauma

DISCLAIMER NOTE

This podcast is not counseling or therapy. It is an educational, faith-based resource for ministry and academic purposes. If you are experiencing distress, please contact a licensed professional, chaplain, or crisis hotline.

A licensed counselor and chaplain were available during the recording to support guests if needed.

This project is part of the Doctor of Ministry program in Pastoral Counseling at Liberty University.

Questions? Email: ktjewell1@liberty.edu

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EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Welcome to Episode 2 of Restored on the Frontline, a podcast dedicated to gospel-centered soul care for first responders.

First responders are trained to run toward crisis — but rarely given space to talk about what that work does to them over time. In this episode, we explore what it means to bear the weight of frontline service: the cumulative stress that builds quietly, the emotional residue that lingers after the shift ends, and the silence many adopt simply to survive.

We sit down with an EMT and a retired firefighter for an honest, grounded conversation about how repeated exposure to pressure and responsibility shapes the soul. No sensationalism — just real reflection on the cost of carrying weight year after year.

Through it all, we return to the hope of the gospel: while stress and trauma try to define us, Christ meets us in the middle of the weight and restores what the job tries to take.

METRO DETROIT FIRST RESPONDER RESOURCES

FAITH-BASED RESOURCES

Woodside Bible Church — 14 Metro Detroit Campuses
Pastoral care, chaplain support, groups, and recovery ministries
https://woodsidebible.org

Celebrate Recovery (Various Locations)
Christ-centered recovery for hurts, habits, and hang-ups
https://www.celebraterecovery.com

Reboot Recovery (Trauma & Faith-Based Programs)
Trauma healing for military, first responders, and families
https://rebootrecovery.com

Cadence Counseling — St. Claire Shores
Christian counselors specializing in trauma-informed care
https://cadencecounseling.org

NON–FAITH-BASED RESOURCES

Oakland County Health Network (OCHN)
https://oaklandchn.org

Macomb County Crisis Center (MCCMH)
https://www.mccmh.net

Wayne County First Responder Support (FST5)
https://fst5.org/

National Suicide & Crisis Lifeline — 988
Immediate mental health crisis support
https://988lifeline.org/

Crisis Text Line
Text HOME to 741741 — 24/7 emotional support

If this episode resonates with you, follow the show, share it with a responder, and leave a review so others can find these conversations.

Podcast RSS Feed Link: (copy and paste into your favorite podcast app)
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Hosted by:
Travis Jewell — Chaplain, pastor, and first responder soul-care advocate

Transcript

Series Intro + Purpose

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome to the Restored on the Front Line podcast where we explore gospel centered soul care for the men and women who run toward what the rest of us often run from. My name is Travis Jewell, former active duty military chaplain and now founder and owner of a veteran-owned pastoral counseling small business. And it's alongside my joy of being a member of Woodside Bible Church in Detroit, Michigan, where we have 14 campuses, where we are one church family many locations. And this podcast is part of my doctoral of ministry work. More than that, it's a safe space for first responders like yourself to talk honestly about the weight that you all carry and where the hope of Christ meets them right in the middle of it. You see, the world sees the uniform on the outside, but God sees the soul on the inside. So before we begin, I want to make something really clear. So if you're listening right now, this podcast is not counseling, it's not therapy, and it's not a substitute for meeting with a trained mental health professional. Our goal is to create a safe, gospel-centered space to talk about the realities that first responders face. So that's really what the goal is to. If anyone in this episode is feeling overwhelmed or triggering, please pause the podcast right now and reach out to someone equipped to support you. A counselor, the chaplain, or a peer support team. The licensed counselor and chaplain are present today during today's recording for the emotional, spiritual state of your guests. And so, how would you get a hold of them? We will have some links at the end of this. And for those who are participating today, we also have opportunities for you to talk to somebody even at the conclusion of this. So we want to make sure everybody is safe, and if there's opportunities to leave, uh we want to make sure you're taken care of. At the end of this episode, we will share a list of resources available to you here in the Metro Detroit area, regional and nationwide. And here's the reality: you are not alone. Joining me today as co-host is my good friend Kevin Barnhill. So thank you, Kevin, for coming. Thank you, Kevin. Yeah, you were a part of the workshop, and you were part of the last episode, and God really just kind of opened up some doors. I just want to say thank you for investing in this, and it's been such a blessing to see what God's continuing to do through you and your ministry. It's exciting. So he's a, you know, you are a recently retired police officer. We learned about that in episode one. If you're listening for the first time, he's got 28 years of police force, um, pastoral ministry experience before that, and now he's a licensed counselor, and he runs a counseling center called Cadence Counseling. Anything else you'd like to add about that? That's about it. That's about it. And so Kevin brings a lot of experience and a steady pastoral presence to this conversation. So we're also uh grateful to have two frontline voices. We have Evan, EMT, and we have Randy, recently retired firefighter. And so thank you both. I know Randy, you came to the workshop like in the fall. Thank you so much. And and Evan, thank you so much for being here. We we thank you for your service, thank you for your sacrifice and your willingness to just share what God's done in your life and doing. In our last episode, we talked about calling identity and why soul care matters. Like, why are we even doing this, right? Today we're gonna go take a little step further into what happens over time. Not one call, not one incident, but the slow, often quiet accumulation of weight that comes from showing up again and again and again, day in and day out in high stake environments. And what we're calling today's episode is bearing the weight over time. Okay, so we're not gonna go any specific details, right? We're not gonna get into graphic. So let me ask you guys a question. When you hear the phrase bearing the weight, what comes to mind from your experience over time?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Just the building of one run on top of another. You know, when you go on one like CPR run, that's okay. Then the next swing you go on another one, you know, that's okay. But then there's sometimes where maybe you're doing one every day during your swing. And it just you get callous to a lot of stuff. I guess that's a way of dealing with when you say bury the weight of what you have to witness.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

So yeah, and I I don't know if you know, yes, you have those traumatic calls, those ones that you just know that are really difficult to handle, but you also have the inhumane side of humanity that you see day in and day out, and how people care for other people that just weighs on you time after time, seeing it. You know? I think that also kind of bears on you.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

No, I can only imagine, right? Was there was there a point when you both realized the job was affecting you? Not just professionally, but personally.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

It probably took me quite some time, even maybe even close to retirement. You just it's like you're on autopilot, you know, and you go in and you do your job, and like even even now, like I don't I never got to the point of having like what they consider post-traumatic stress, even though I probably did. I never had any like symptoms or different things, but there's other things in my life where it you would withdraw. Maybe short fuse, you know, and you take it out on your family. So and it's things that you can look back on and realize that you know you weren't the best person during those times. How many years did you do? Just short of 29. 29. It's a long time.

SPEAKER_04 6:13

It's a long time. Let me throw a question out there as far as why do you think it takes so long for first responders to figure that out? Seeing that it's it's not the young ones necessarily, it's the ones that are later in their career.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

I think in uh in the past there wasn't an avenue to to talk about it. You know, it's just expected. You know, you just come in and do your job and it wasn't they didn't have critical instance trust debriefing, they didn't have peer support, they didn't have an avenue. There there was, but nobody tapped into it. You know, and so there were on unknown resources out there, but it was just never a thing.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

So think about that. You came in probably the mid-90s, early mid-90s. Okay, so so you think about nineties, the two you know, nine of the twenty-first century. Think about that, what it was probably like even before that. What do you think what are you guys thinking?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Yeah, no, I I you know it's almost taboo to talk about it. You know? It's your job. You do your job, you buck up, you know, and you do what you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_04 7:22

Taboo how break that down to get help.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Okay. You you're not you're not supposed to tell people that you need help.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Because what happens?

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Because then they you're looked upon as weak. You don't want to be weak, you know, that you can't handle it. So you just you know, you just do what you do, and it's your job, and it's part of the job. Also part of that is the counselors that you would talk to when we would explain our stories to them, the look on their faces, they have no idea the the trauma that we as first responders have to deal with and see. And they're not prepared for it. Um and it's almost like they I don't want to say they can't handle it, but they they have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

It's interesting you mentioned that in our last episode. Kevin, you literally spoke about that from your experience, remember that?

SPEAKER_04 8:11

About that, yeah, for sure. So with that, would you agree, both of you, would you agree that we're first responders and what we do is we care for others, even at times before we even care for ourselves. Absolutely. In so many different ways. So then we go to a clinician and they don't have the training, the understanding, the the breakdown in their in their mindset of how to work with the first responder. So as soon as what I found, and see if you agree with this, is that the first responder, when they go to a counseling session, they'll throw out a little hook, right? They'll throw out a little it's not, it's it's kind of bad. It's kind of bad, right? Firefighter, yeah, I had to go save some people. I stuffed over a dead body, and and they just, you know, but then I got and they just they quickly say it, right? And I always likened it to testing the waters for that clinician because then they look at the clinician and they you first responders are great at reading body language, right? Firefighters, you gotta know if that's medical, mental, alcohol, substance related. So we have to take proper precautions for all that stuff, right? What I need to do. First um, police officers also. So with that, you throw out that little test test story. It's bad, but it's not nearly the level what you can really bring out, right? And then you watch the clinician to see if they respond to it. Does that make sense? Mentioned that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I I guess you know. So I had I'm not gonna get into details, so I had one horrific event that happened, right? They take me off the road and I had to go to the the place that we had to go to, right? I met with the counselor and explained it to them what happened. And like you said, you you should kind of hint at it, and then they like you know they just don't know how to respond, you know, and and then it as soon as that happens, it's just like okay, I'm done.

SPEAKER_04 10:27

And you don't want to damage them. Yep. Because you're you're in the business of helping people. So you don't want to cause more harm to them.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Absolutely. You know, and then so then you you don't want to say more. And I remember walking out of that place going, I'm never going back. I I called my wife. Well, who was actually my fiance at the time, and said, No more. Absolutely not. No way am I going back to that place.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

That's so sad because it's a wonderful opportunity to meet people in their pain, to be kind of that bear of the presence of God. But the enemy comes in there in fear, unknown, and then you probably even feel judged. Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah. And then and then more of what you said too is we're the first responders, we're the ones that are supposed to be helping people. We don't need the help, right? We're we're always supposed to put people before us. Right. You know, e it just is it's kind of part of your nature. Aaron Powell It's very conflicting. Yeah, so you you you yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

I can help you, but I don't need help. I don't want you to help me. Right. And then so for the clinicians, I'm just gonna sidespin it here for I think that clinicians can get trained by first responders in how to handle a traumatic story. In bringing an education to them so that they're more aware of it and they're more acute to dealing with other people's. I mean, we're trained in that in the in the master's program, but nothing like the real life. Like it's not in the books, right? When you bring something really life, and we have to process that.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

I mean, even as a military chaplain, I wasn't really understanding what it meant to be, you know, they say you walk in their shoes, and it wasn't until we literally went on battalion hikes for like you would do build-ups like three miles, six miles. The longest one was an 18-mile. That is no joke. It's the last hike before we go into combat. And I remember just be, you know, you're getting kind of melting, you're walking, you literally see someone's sand boots, you know, their footprints, and you walk in that. It's like you're almost in this, and we're all in a dit together. It's like uh almost like group suffering. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

And that's how teamwork and camaraderie is built in group suffering. And and more onto that, too. It's it's you know, when you when the I'll say the lay person meets a first responder, what is one of the first questions they're gonna ask? What is the worst thing you've ever seen?

SPEAKER_03 12:55

All the time.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

All the time. Yeah. It's so uh how as a first responder, how do you answer that?

SPEAKER_04 13:03

Have you ever?

SPEAKER_02 13:04

No. No, no.

SPEAKER_04 13:05

I I've done it as a trial thing, and I threw out some horrific thing just to see and just to see their face was And it's like they should realize that's asking someone to relive the most horrible thing you I mean, take what the worst thing you can imagine and times it by 10, and now you want to ask them about it, and you really want to know?

SPEAKER_02 13:27

No, you don't want to know. You want to hear about the cool, cool runs, I'll say, you know, that runs are not necessarily cool. Exactly. Yeah, where you don't want to know the truth.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

But or you'll talk about the gritty stuff, but then that what happens afterwards they after they turn the TV off all the other stuff, right? Remember what you said three to eight hundred, depending on how big the apartment is? You know, most average people will have five to ten. Critical coincidence. Yeah. And then first responders could have anywhere up to eight hundred. Think about that for a second, right? And it builds up. All that's taking weight. And so my next question is you know, so you're bearing the weight over time, and then what's that that that what's happening? It's building up. It's doing something, whether you realize it or not. And what we call lingering, it's there's that lingering effect. So when we talk about stress here, we're not just talking about having a bad day, right? We're talking about pressure that builds over time. Responsibility, exposure, constant readiness, like at a moment's notice, that right there. And when we use the phrase that we used last time, emotional residue. So if you were listening to episode one, we talked about that kind of emotional residue, particularly when in the first responding community, it stays, it lingers, and it's affecting, kind of like the body keeps the score we've talked about. We simply mean that what can linger after the shift ends, right? The thoughts, the reactions, the weariness, even when the uniform comes off. Because all that's doing something, regardless of whether we're conscious about it or not. So let me ask you another question. What what tends to follow if you want to share what you felt like followed you home, that's fine, or you can even make generalities about first responders. But say what you feel comfortable sharing. But what what what do you what tends to follow first responders home after work, emotionally or mentally?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

You know, generalities when you talk about they talk about like the adrenaline dump when you know you're just like hyper-vigilant all day at work, and and then once you get home, you just need time to like relax, but then that can have a negative effect to you. For me, I always just kept busy. You know, I always did side work, or I was always like never gave myself a chance for that rest period or that time to come down. So I carried that around.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

So, Randy, have you learned to relax since you retired, or are you still busy, busy, busy? That's a true question, isn't it? And I like the chuckle there.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, because we all know once we retire, we're just as busy as or busier. But the busyness now is what you choose to do. Right. You know, and now I sleep eight hours at the night, you know, which I never you haven't been able to do that for a while. No, that never happened. You know, I was a lot of guys would go to bed at 10 or 11 o'clock. I was up till three o'clock in the morning, get up at seven. I just operated on three, four hours of sleep, you know, for most of my career until I became a deputy chief. I got a 40-hour job and you know, worked nine to five, and it it changed things up a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 16:49

But so I had a little bit of time at the end to slow down, but they do say it's different from a person retiring from the first responder world from being an admin and having that eight-hour day to the person that is the the frontline spoots to the ground type of person. Like if that person does their whole career on the road, fireman, police officer, paramedic, EMS, right? It's different than the person that has elevated in rank and been more distanced from it. So their PTSD or symptoms, acute stress disorder, or something like that, is is less because they've had that cushion be prior to the retirement. And it seems like that's exactly what you're saying was going from eight hours is definitely not the same thing as doing a 24-hour shift.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Right. Even as far as being a paramedic, I retired eight years ago and I spent two and a half years as a deputy chief, so I was off the road but went on big runs, and then two and a half years before that as a battalion chief, which again you're not responding to medicals and everything else. Yeah, you you're you're there on the bigger runs, the more traumatic ones, I guess, you know, just to support your guys, but you're not in there getting your hands dirty and and doing the work. Getting your boots floored. So yeah. So I I look back at that, it's like, so when you add that up, you know, we're talking thir 13 years ago, I was on the road, you know, and a lot has transpired in the last 13 years as far as care for first responders. When I became deputy chief, one of the things was everyone goes home. They had 16 different rules, and number 13 was behavioral health. And from there, like I found out who our EAP was, and then found out, hey, we had this care available to us, but nobody ever used it because it wasn't the right thing to do. You know?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

So it's almost like if you got into that system, particularly even the military was like that too, that they got into that mental health system, it was like, uh oh, well, we're never we're never gonna see you again. Right. Seriously. It was like or you know, and and and I was kind of in that weird bridge as a chaplain. I wasn't quite mental health, but I was kind of so they were willing to talk to me because of confidentiality, right? Because that was a huge like, you know, that's one great thing about chaplains, at least in the military, even if you had suicidal, you know, ideations, I was not a mandatory reporter in that role, which was huge for them, because they wanted to have that safety and trust, right? And so and so kind of transitions to my next part, silence is survival, right? And you know, many first responders learn to survive by staying quiet. Not because they don't feel the weight, but because talking has not always felt safe. Anyone want to talk about that? Maybe why is it hard to talk openly about the weight of jobs?

SPEAKER_02 19:51

You know, uh like so I guess I don't know, I gotta think on this one. I guess it's I guess it's depends on who you're talking to. That makes sense. Okay. I'll I'll I'll use this example. So my wife, she she's uh she's a first responder as well. When she uh had her first uh cardiac arrest, she comes home and she's all excited, she's telling her mom, I got to do this, I got to do that. Her mom was absolutely like beside herself. Like, so you mean somebody just died? Well, yeah, but I got to do this, I got to do that. You know, you almost look at it as a skill that you you're you're doing. You don't necessarily see the human side of it, right? Where her mom saw the human side of it and really realized that, oh my gosh, somebody just lost a loved one, you know. Or we don't look at it as like that. It feels more mechanical. More mechanical. You you you can't and distant.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

You're more you're more distant. Yes. And why do you think that is? Because there's a there's a reason why, uh and a healthy reason and an unhealthy reason.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

I I think it just goes back to our training. We we we train so much so hard that way everything becomes second nature. It's it's like an orchestra, right? Where you you're not even thinking about what you're doing, you're doing just muscle doing it. Yes. And I guess part of that takes away some of the stress of it, I guess you could say, because you're focused on that skill. Or it's more task-based instead of emotional. Because if it when it becomes emotional, are you going to be able to do your job?

SPEAKER_00 21:40

You've probably seen people where they did get emotional and something happened.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yeah. And if you do get emotional, then you you're gonna ha you're gonna be questioned as to can you handle this job? Are you able to do this?

SPEAKER_04 21:53

Yeah, yeah, I see that.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

You know, so it's better just uh grin and bear it. You know, swallow it down. You don't say anything because you don't want to be viewed as weak, viewed as you're not able to do your job. And I think for first responders, I think personally, I think that's the worst somebody could something somebody could say about me is I was not good at my job, I could not do my job. That that'd be horrible. Because it feels like a personal attack, like a reflection. Absolutely. Yeah, you take pride in being able to help people. Because that's what you give a gift.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

God is giving you that gift to do that and that ability, and you want to do it for his glory and others good. And so you think about silence at times probably did help, right? But it's also had a cost to it, too, over time. What do you think silence over time if without those healthy outlets, right? And we could talk about those healthy outlets.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

You know, I I think like the I'll use the analogy, and you you guys have probably heard this before. You have your your your teacup, your bucket, your your glass, whatever you have, right? Every little thing you get is going to fill it up, right? There's going to come that time where it overflows. Right? And if it overflows, that's when the sear the what's the word I'm looking for? The crisis is. Right? So with us not saying it, we just dig it deeper, deeper, deeper, and not talking about it doesn't allow us to empty out that teacup and just keeps filling, filling, filling, and you just keep swallowing it down, swallowing it down until it can't take anymore.

unknown 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

And that is when it is the absolute crisis.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

And it breaks.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

And it breaks.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

That's usually when the command has to get involved, or there's a relationship issue or a substance. I mean you could you could go on and on. All kinds of different ways those tributaries could just flow out.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Yeah, and and you know, those unhealthy coping mechanisms. Yes. That that's what we used to do. That was normal. It was almost expected. Yes. You know, you you don't talk about it, you look for the answer in the bottom of that bottle, or whatever the case is. You work hard, you play hard. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

And that's kind of what you give the excuse. Well, I'm just I'm just playing hard, I'm just blowing off steam. But are you really? Mm-hmm. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

They said the same thing in the military. It's very common things with these like high stress environments. It's almost like and that's the world's answer, right? And it's it's it's there's a little bit of truth to that, but whereas we're kind of transitioning into the kind of gospel transition, and these are gospel conversations for soul care, right? One of the things that we've learned through both experience and study, so not only just through my doctoral program, but just experience as a chaplain with first responders in the military, and just collectively over the years of listening to uh peers and first responders' stories, is that prolonged stress and trauma, they try to tell a story, really about who we are and what we should be able to handle, right? There's the world's message, right? But and what we're allowed to say and what we should carry along. But the gospel tells a different story, tells a truer story, one rooted in grace, presence, and restoration. And that's why the next part of this conversation really matters, right? And so as you think about the weight that you have carried, and maybe still are, if anywhere, has the how has the hope of the gospel met you in the middle of that?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

My end is already written, you know, so no matter what I have done or whatever I do, it's already done. Amen. And so to carry like worry and fear and fear of death, any of that stuff, it really doesn't matter because I know what the finish will be.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

I love that. And I'm gonna piggyback on that to kind of add because one of our theme verses that we've used comes out of 2 Corinthians, and uh 2 Corinthians chapter 1 says, All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, our merciful Father, the source of all comfort. He comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others with the same comfort God has given us.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

I I will say this is something that I still struggle with, and I'm gonna get a little bit deep here, and I'm gonna apologize for that. Um I I struggle with this still is so I had a bad event, something horrible happened. I I'm afraid that I'm not enough for God because of what happened. And I go back and forth with this, and it's it's a struggle to this to right now. Am I enough? Is he gonna forgive me? You know Am I gonna make it, you know, on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Well, for one I want to say, thank you for sharing that. It takes a lot of courage, right? And and it means a lot. And so thank you for sharing that with us because nothing's wasted. Everything, God is gonna use that for our listener, for you, for us, right? And so I think there's a part of us that intellectually we know that God is for us based upon the authority of his word. We hear it, we read it, right? But there's this part of us, and that's part of this whole soul care, like it's like this disconnect. And one of the things I've even learned in my own journey is like I can know it theologically, I can know it intellectually, I could psychologically, you just keep going very, very, you know, up here, right? Cerebral, but there's something in my heart that's not embracing it. There's a disconnect. And there's these whispers of the lie of the enemy and the world, it's like you're not good enough. He's not for you, he's against you, right? And he and he reminds us through shame, guilt, isolation, and insulation. It's almost like the first responder community almost kind of creates that insulation, isolation, right? We do have the peer support groups, but how many times have people been in a group of people and still felt alone? Right? And so he wants to isolate you from God's people and he wants to insulate you from God's truth. He you can hear it, but are you really believing it, trusting it, and embracing it? So I hear you, brother.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Yeah, and that's and I it's I I'm working through it, obviously, you know, and I am confident at the end, you know, it'll it'll be it'll all work out, but I do. I struggle with it, you know. Can I be forgiven what I did?

SPEAKER_04 29:13

So that that is a great point and perspective where you're coming from, right? I am not good enough. And for the listeners out there, they just have a dine, some of them have identified with you, and they're saying, I feel the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

In my counseling practice, I see people say, I feel insignificant, I feel I'm not good enough. In EMDR training, it talks about that's like the the the target point, the the thing that we'd focus on. It makes me feel, these things make me feel I am not good enough. So the positive side to that would be what? If what is the opposite of I don't feel good enough? What would you like to get to? That I am enough. Okay. That I am enough. And believe it or not, that is one of the main things in the EMDR training, which is eye movement desensitation, reprocessing, how it goes into the neural pathways and it unlocks the long-term memories and works on, you can do some other stuff to work on the short-term memories, but what you're dealing with is a long-term memory, right? And it's making you feel this way. So even for those that are not in the Christian family, there's people, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, that feel I am not good enough.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

And so even to take this to I am good enough, right? I am good enough, I'm good enough for my kids, I'm good enough for my family, I'm good enough for my friends, I am good enough. To work on those and unlocking the memory, whatever it came to, and this is more to the audiences here, is is working on the memory, and then you kind of embrace it. So whatever it is, and there's a whole lot of stuff being done with the MDR, right? Because it'll it'll bring it up, and then you desensitize it and you reprocess it so that it doesn't hit as hard. And so when you get to that point of, I am good enough, because it's not a matter of a fact of you're not good enough. It's it's not a matter of because we know and you you spiritually know, I would be very confident to say you spiritually know that you are good enough and you are gonna make it to the other side, right? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. You never feared that stuff because you had the confidence in Christ to say, I'm gonna be present with God. So dealing with I am good enough. Romans 8 1 says there's now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Right?

SPEAKER_04 31:44

So the question of, Am I good enough? Is he gonna forgive me? He said it over and over again. It's just a matter of taking your spiritual man and embracing it to a level of wholeness and healing.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

I love the fact that you mentioned Romans chapter 8, because Paul is building a case. And when right before a so if let's if you go to if you go to Romans chapter 8, it says, therefore, well, therefore is there for a reason, right? You go back to chapter 7, Paul is really wrestling with the flesh. The very things that I want to do, I don't do. The very things that I don't want to do, I end up what why? What is I'm a wretched man. Like there's this wage of war of sin, the flesh. Even though the spirit of God is willing, the flesh is weak. So there's this battle for your mind and heart. Even though you, as a Christian, have been saved from the penalty of sin, we've not been saved from the power of sin. That's why we need God's Holy Spirit to continue reminding us of truth so we can attack those things. I love that, EMDR. I love that. Because God, all truth is God's truth, right? And we're running it through the lens of the gospel. Because of what Christ did, somehow by believing by faith that when Jesus died, it counted for you. Therefore, because of that truth, there's no condemnation of shame and guilt that you're not good enough. The reality is none of us are really good enough, right? That's true. But but we but we don't stay there. See, the enemy wants to keep you down, stay there, you're stupid, you're dumb, you're not it's like it's that shame and guilt, right?

SPEAKER_04 33:24

We all fall in short of the glory of God, right? And our and our righteousness is like filled with rags. And when we get to that humility of I'm no good within myself, nothing inside of me without Christ truly is not good. And any good thing that comes from out of us is because of Christ, right? So just kind of wrestling with just that thought and just just making your spiritual man working with your spiritual man, right? And your insight into that. I being able to identify that, you're halfway there.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 33:59

If you don't know what you don't know, right? But now that you know that, now you can identify it when it comes up, you can do exactly what Jesus did when he was fasting for four days, and he just proclaimed the word of God. He didn't argue. You don't have to argue. I don't have to argue with people. I can just proclaim it and be done with it. Amen. I I'm not a big years ago, I was a big arguer and this and that and defensive and all that stuff. But I've learned I don't have to argue. So you don't have to argue with Satan at all, right? All those negative intrusive thoughts. Because he's an accuser. Yeah, you don't have to argue. You can say, I stand on the word of God. Nothing good in me, but everything good is in me because of him.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Christ gets to define who you are. Not even you, right? Not the world or anybody else. And and think about it like this. I think as we kind of this next part about what helps and what matters. And I think, you know, think about staying grounded, right? What helps you stay grounded. But you you one of the things we talked about, you mentioned before, is about that tenant team, you know. There's a, you know, we read about ecclesiastics, uh, one chord, not stand by self, two, back to back, a chord of three strains is not easily broken. I always kind of think about Christ being the center, and then we're wrapping ourselves around back to back, right? You know, you can use that in husband-wife relationships, but I like using it in first responder because it's like, who has your back?

unknown 35:19

Right?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Because we know Christ does, but I think, I think of the paraplegic who could not get to Jesus, what happened in that story? There were four dudes who grabbed a mat, picked him up, busted a hole through the roof, and went to and brought him to Jesus. Sometimes God, we need to ask God to raise up some godly people in our lives, some men, some mat carriers who will come alongside of us and help us have those breakthrough moments. Because God will bring certain people at certain times of our life to encourage us, to listen, to speak the truth in love, and maybe even help pick. I've had to fireman carry some brothers before in arms. I've had some guys get hurt in combat and I had to pick them up and fireman carry them out of the out of the harsh environment. Maybe you've been on a scene where guys have gotten hurt and you've had to help them, right? But we're talking about the hurts that are off the unseen. Right? And my prayer for all of you listening and all of us here that we at least have one person that we trust.

SPEAKER_04 36:24

One Mac carrier. I love that Mac carrier. Mac carrier men's group or something. That's that's phenomenal. It is.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

And I'll I'll add on to that. I think when when people come to the retirement age, Ryan, you could probably speak to this. What do you miss the most leaving the firehouse?

SPEAKER_01 36:45

You I well, I can say I miss the guys, but when you're gone, you're gone. Yeah. Like you're nobody. So if you find your identity in your job, once you leave, you have no identity. So fortunately for me, I I got saved before I retired. So I found my identity in Christ. I found my identity in the men that I hung around with outside. Outside of the fire firehouse or the police station or the game, right? Right. So my retirement was, you know, I just knew it was time. And when I left, it was it wasn't a loss.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

You know, I'm glad you mentioned that. You know, this whole this whole doctoral project's been around the problem of like, you know, Woodside Bible Church doesn't have a really, you know, first responders attending Woodside Bible Church like an avenue to receive a gospel-centered framework for soul care. Now, that's a big mouthful. But in the in reality, is what types of program systems, ministries are there on a consistent basis that are ministering to the souls of first responders? Yes, we have men's ministry, those are all great. We have outside resources counsel, but like what are what are opportunities? I don't like to use the word programs because we use programs with so many. What are what are some opportunities that God may rise up on his own? Because it's not about me, it's not about you, it's not about it, it's really about listening to the Spirit, asking God, okay, where do you want to move? How do you want to use us and really be that kind of like Matt Carrier or like another community that allows first responders to as iron sharpens iron, to encourage each other to talk, right? Does that make sense a little bit? I know I'm kind of it sounds like I'm chasing a little bit of rabbit up, but really kind of flushing that because that's the whole point of this. It's not just for the sake of doing a podcast, it's really to help bring an opportunity for people to know that they're not alone in the Woodside family.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Does that make sense? Fill that void, find something to to fill that. Yes. And you can either do it healthy or unhealthy, right? But if you find something healthy, find the word of Jesus, you know, to fill that void. You know, men's ministry. I've really come to love and appreciate men's Bible study, men's ministry. I look forward to it. I wish it was every week. It was every other week, but I never had that before, you know, and it really has brought a newfound enjoyment to life with that. So yeah, I I I 100% agree.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

And the great thing is you're around other men who may not be first responders, and sometimes it's refreshing sometimes too, because then it's kind of like, you know, you it's good to be around people that are like-minded like you, but it's also good to be around other people because that's the body of Christ, right? And it you get to appreciate the differences, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:37

And and hear everybody's story. Everybody has a story, but to hear their story and be there to actually listen and then incorporate that into the gospel is just everything.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

How they navigate their spiritual man. Yes. How they navigate that guy that uh is powerful. It's a powerful thought. Thank you, Evan.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

What do you think about the gospel? And you know, you d you know, you all uh you were saved. About what part of your career, like the beginning of your career, middle?

SPEAKER_01 40:09

No, I got divorced 16 years in. I was uh brought up in the church, went to Christian schools, but it wasn't until after I left the denomination I was in and actually went to a non-denominational church and heard the gospel preached and realized there's something different to this religion. You know, this head knowledge that I had for years. I knew all the stories, but the stories didn't apply. Right. And now they do.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

So it's funny you say that because I just had this conversation with somebody at a at work, where before, when I went to a more traditional church, you went to church, okay, you know, okay, I went to church. It was almost like you're check marking that box, right? Oh, I went to church, I did what I was supposed to do. It wasn't until we started going to Woodside that we left, I left feeling good, in a better mindset, just the whole day is better, just from going, listening to the gospel, listening to everything, understanding it more. I I like to I like to nerd out on the Bible a little bit when he when he's talking about the stories. I like to know, okay, what part of the world is this happening? What was going on in that world? You know, a little bit more of the backstory of the whole kind of the big picture of it.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

We learned about that on Sunday. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

I I l I really enjoy that part of it. And it just makes you feel good where before didn't have that.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Well, it's transformative, it's it's participatory instead of just spectator. Right? We're all in this together, right? We all have different roles, right? And Christ being the head, right? Uh and so you think about hope and encouragement. Like so, if they're if another first responder were listening who feels worn down or unseen, what would you want them to hear? Find a good church.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yeah, come on over, come on over. How do they define that? How do they find that?

SPEAKER_04 42:15

Great question. Great, great question. There's thousands of church in in the Metro Detroit area. How do they find a good one? Follow me.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Well, okay, let's find out.

SPEAKER_04 42:25

Break it down for me. Break it down for me. Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

So you want a place where you're hearing the gospel every Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

And what is the gospel? Because you uh you weren't here in episode one, so I always like to ask this question. Well, in your in your in your own words, I'm Joan Street, Ryan, and I heard that word. Oh, wait a minute, Randy, you said a word that I'm not real familiar with. What do you mean by the gospel? What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Well, God created me or created Adam as a perfect person, and he sinned. The wages of sin is death. So there's no way he could ever be back together with God. The Father sent his son, Jesus, to die for our sins, and he took our place on the cross, and because of that, we're justified in front of God. So it's good news. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:15

So it doesn't sound complicated.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

No?

SPEAKER_04 43:18

Yet sometimes I think we make it more complicated. Particularly in the church. Right. Church is.

SPEAKER_02 43:24

And I, you know, honestly, I'll say this. It's intimidating. When when you when you're getting, and I'm I'm newer into this, into the studying the gospel, studying this, so uh I will admit to this. It's intimidating when people ask you about the gospel and you don't know. It's intimidating to uh pray. Right? It's intimidating to pray in front of people. What if I do it wrong? What if I do this? When ultimately it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

You think about that your background, what if I do it wrong? Am I good? Enough. See how that mindset can even translate into the church. So now that performance, performative mindset, it kind of trickles down in into that. And I think you made a great illustration there where you realize it's like say it's like, well, you don't really do good enough at your job. You're not going to do it in church either. So just be quiet.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Yeah. And I guess for me, you asked, how do you know a church is is is is a good fit for you. For me, I would have to feel like home. I have to feel safe. I have to be around like-minded people, right? People that are all kind of all there for the same purpose. And it has to, you know, I guess it goes back to it has to feel like family.

SPEAKER_04 44:42

And a functional family, not a dysfunctional family.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 44:47

Well, we want to be clear because there's a lot of dysfunctional families out there. So with that, do you feel it's safe to say that if it's their first time going to a church, they are going to feel safe and good? Or do you think they should just get through that insecurity and just try it? Just try it.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Just try it. And look for one of us. Yeah, even look for I guarantee you there are people, at least I know at our campus, that if they see somebody they don't know, they're going to come up and say, Hey, we're so glad you hear my name is so-and-so. Thank you for coming. Because I heard something this week. People are not merely tools to be used by God. They're sons and daughters in the family of God. So we're not just being a part of family is not just being useful. It's like people care about it for who you are, not for what you do. And when you feel that, then you're like, you know what? I might come back to that. I'm accept it just the way you're exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Yep. You know, and and give it the honest try.

SPEAKER_04 45:52

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

You know, go, you've got to go a couple times to see if it's it's uh it's a good fit. Get involved, get involved in either women's or men's Bible studies.

SPEAKER_04 46:04

But I don't feel good enough to get involved. What would you tell me?

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Come on with me. Come to a men's Bible study.

SPEAKER_04 46:11

Find somebody that you might cling to and say, hey, okay.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Come with come with me and we'll we'll we'll go and we'll give it a shot.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Yeah. If you're listening right now, I want you to know that there's a war right now. The enemy does not want you to come. The enemy just wants you to stay where you're at in the isolation and installation. And we're gonna take some time to pray for you as we're praying for all of us right now, because prayer does things. When we pray in Jesus' name, there's power in Jesus' name, there's power in his word, and his Holy Spirit is able to do things that's that I can't explain. It's a mystery. And we're all a testimony of the Holy Spirit speaking to our hearts and taking us out of darkness into light, right? And because it really, at the end of the day, it's about hope. People need hope.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Without a vision that people perish.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

That's right. And so right now in the season you're at, as we're closed, this is gonna we're kind of kind of gonna be landing the plane here. Last question. This is for everybody. What right now in your current season gives you hope right now?

SPEAKER_04 47:19

For me, being retired, right, and I'm working on some other activities. However, I heard a great little sermon, mini sermon type video, was when God told Noah to build the ark, right? He did, gave him all the specifications and all that stuff to make it perfect. But then he said, I'm gonna seal you up, I'm gonna shut you in. Right? So that's confidence that he's tak he's protected. Because if I'm building a boat, I love doing carpentry, but it might not be, it's a big project for one man, right? And so there might be some flaws. And I know in the Navy CBs are like, nail it. You know, you could be four inches off, and they're like, not building a church, just nail that. That's called government work, right? Right. So if Noah had that, I doubt he was like that. I doubt he was like a like that. But you know, God shut him and he protected him. But also, what hit me about four days ago was this. He did not give any navigation on device inside the ark. There was no rudder, there was no steering thing. That's right. It just floated. It just floated. So God was how he spoke to my life was saying, you don't need to worry about where this ark is gonna land, where your project is gonna land. You don't have to worry and pave this. He goes, it's just gonna land where I want it to land. And when you get out of the ark, that is your new promised land. Wow. And that was powerful for me four days ago. It was powerful because I don't need to direct and guide my own ship and my own boat, right? It's got any good thing in it.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

What's that? Particularly for type African.

SPEAKER_04 48:54

I want to know, right? I want to know everything. Boom, boom, boom, boom. God's like, you just get in it. I'll shut you and I'll protect you, and then I'll guide you to where it's gonna go. Powerful truth. Yeah. I don't have to be good enough to be a good captain. You've seen me drive my buddies a 40-foot yacht, and he had to run up and grab the thing. He's like, no, don't ever, don't ever do that again. I'm like, good. So let alone a big let alone a big arc.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

I can't steer it down a canal, you know. Don't get in the way. You know, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Yeah. For me, I guess what brings me hope is seeing the students, the kids, yeah, at church, you know, laughing and playing and being together all under the gospel and their enjoyment of it. I mean, growing up, didn't really go to church. We did, you know, it was a chore. They want to go there. They want to be there.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Believe me, they want to go there.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

You know, they they want they want to be there. You know, like my my daughter, like for student ministry. Is it time to go yet? Is it time to go yet? I can't be late. I gotta be there. I gotta be there. Sam, it it you you it's not you haven't started yet. You can't even go there yet. Well, we can't. We gotta wait in the park, we gotta wait in the parking room. We gotta wait. I don't care to everyone. You know, I mean, they're they're counting off before service starts. You know, it's all of that that really brings me. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

And now we even have some former students that are now part of your program, which is also how you get to teach and train up the next generation. That's another story for another day. But yeah. Anyone else before we close? Anything that gives you help?

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Yeah, you know, just to piggyback off a lot of what Evan said, you know, just about not being good enough, it's like in our jobs, we're trained to be perfect. You know, especially like you train in new EMTs. Like when you do your practicals, if you don't put your gloves on, it's an autofail, you're done. So it's just your whole life is like regimented to do everything the right way, perfect, and if you make a mistake, it costs. My hope is I don't have to be perfect, and I can't be perfect, and I just have to understand that he's got me.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Amen. That's nice. I like that. I love that. Well, thank you guys so much. Thank you for listening. You know, in our next episode, we're gonna talk about moments of chaos and crisis because those never happen, right? And what it means for Christ to be our refuge and strength when everything feels urgent and on the edge. And so before we close, we want to remind everyone that you are not walking this road alone. We've listed confidential resources and other resources, faith-based and non-faith-based, along with a downloadable PDF. They're going to be on our show notes at Restored on the Frontline Podcast. We're on Spotify, we're on BuzzSprout, we're on Apple, iTunes, a lot of different formats. Uh, you can also email me at KTJ W E L L number one at liberty.edu. That's ktjule1 at liberty.edu, or go to our podcast show URL and get it on our resources page. Now, whatever path you choose, whether clinical support, peer support, or faith-based care, you do not have to walk this road alone. These organizations exist to support you and your family, and Christ meets you in the places no one else sees. What? I'm gonna say this again. We're gonna say this week after week. We're gonna beat this in. You are not alone. Thank you guys so much for attending, and thank you so much for sharing your stories. Thank you for listening, and we hope to see you again next weektime on Restore on the Frontline Podcast.