Modern Grandparenting - part 3

In this third in a series, we discuss the specifics of engagement between parents, children and their children’s children and how that has changed. Some is much the same, such as each generation of parents thinks they’re going to do a better job. We discuss how grandparents can  be supportive without interfering, how to be a trusted resource without giving up their own lives. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to Couples and Connections, a conversation with clinical psychologist Dr. Cynthia Post. We're covering a wide variety of mental health topics related to couples, families, singles, and relationships. I'm health journalist Teresa Sullivan Barger. Hello, Cynthia. How are you? I'm well, thanks, Teresa. How are you? I'm good, thanks. Today we are doing the third part of a series on grandparents. This is sort of the final segment. We started with changing roles of grandparents. That was episode one and this. And then the second episode was more about the logistics of the grandparent relationship. And this time we're getting into the engagement between the parents and the grandparents and the children and the grandchildren and how that has changed. Some of it is still this is the same. You can talk about that, but then there are some things that are different. We could start by just talking, Cindy, about what are some similar challenges of the grandparent parent relationship and what are some new challenges.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

So here's one that's as old as time, which is parents often, I think almost without exception, quietly believe, you know what, I know this better than my parent. And you know what? They're not wrong. They're probably right. There's some things that they remember that they didn't get that they want their child to have, and they are intent on making it better than what they got. And I say, good for them. The funny part to me is that each and every generation seems to feel this way. And each and every generation of parents makes, of course, their own mistakes. Yep. And who are the people that can see those mistakes first? The grandparents, because they're watching them and they remember and know better than anyone what some of their own mistakes were. And now they're watching their children and they're seeing what some of the things are are that they're doing that they're not sure about. Now, some of what they're not sure about may be in fact something maybe not so desirable. And some of what they're not sure about may be because their way of parenting is very different. And so they should be careful not to assume the new generation is wrong, but that they're doing it differently. And they should remain very curious about what the parents are thinking, given that it does seem different from what they did.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Okay, so you just said be curious. So when is the a circumstance where the grandparents are really concerned and they're thinking, okay, what this what this generation is doing is could be potentially harmful, and they're versus they're like, hmm, this is different. Maybe I'm gonna ask about this, you know. Like, is there a time when it's okay to speak up and a time where it's just better to just be curious? Or should you always be curious?

SPEAKER_02 3:06

I think you should always be curious. There are times when you might feel concerned, and you it probably wouldn't hurt to just consult with someone and maybe a professional who deals with parenting issues and that sort of thing that are younger to get a sense about whether your concerns are warranted, that you have a question and you're wanting to know if your concerns are warranted. So the things I think about are things like there could be things like about disciplinary strategies or lack thereof. There could be things about decisions about vaccinations. There could be decisions about how to educate your children. Do you want to do homeschooling or have them in a school system? There can be a lot of different things that children are being attended to by their parents in a particular way that grandparents may have a very different idea about. Screen time is another big one.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Okay, yeah, that's a yeah, I can imagine that could be a source of conflict. Let's talk, let's talk specifically about that. If the grandparent thinks their grandchild is getting too much screen time, do they keep their mouth shut? So, you know, it's an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

I would say that goes both ways. I see a lot of younger parents now, by younger, I mean just parent generation as opposed to grandparent generation, who feel very strongly that their children have no screen time and that the grandparents are actually wishing for a little screen time because the children have been like active all day and they've been the ones engaging with them all day and playing with them all day. And now, could we all have a moment to just regroup and sit quietly and watch the cute little safe show that they want to watch on TV? For boys, it's something, for girls, it's another, but that everybody endorses it's a perfectly fine show. You just don't want them watching passively all day long. You want them building themselves, their resilience, their self-soothing, their creativity skills.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I just want to challenge you. Again, this is my bias. I tried when I was raising my kids not to have think boys this way, girls this way.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Absolutely. I'm so glad you said that. You're exactly right. I only meant that some shows are geared this way or that way, but you're right. Your little boy might want to play with Barbie, and your little girl might be loving trucks. So we're not gonna, we're not going to gender stereotype here or decide for kids how they even want to dress, you know, how they want to dress issues of gender are all very different now. That's a whole category of things that parents are trying to be much more sensitive to and mindful of. Grandparents, there was no such issue to even understand. Now we understand a lot more about some of the gender issues that are there in parenting.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

I'll just say specifically, I I felt the way I my I was raised in a home that was very, very sexist, where the boys had certain roles, the girls had certain roles. And I made a point of trying, you know, the boys could play with dolls, the girls, the girls played with blocks and trucks and all that and trains. I tried so hard not to gender stereotype. My my sons had dolls, they had strollers. But my daughter will tell you that they're still, even though I tried so hard not to have gender stereotypes, they're still they still came about. And I think that could be society, that could be something else. But I guess maybe talk about what are some of the things that grandparents can do that are respectful even if they don't agree?

SPEAKER_02 6:56

I would say this is a great time for grandparents to get really good at attunement. So another way to say attunement is read the room. What are you seeing on the parents' faces? What are you seeing on the their children's faces? What are you hearing from the parents about what they feel is important? If you're confused, speak up, ask them. Not in a judgmental way, in a curious way. Something like this. You know, I just heard you say such and such, and you repeat what you heard. Can you help me understand that? Like one of the new things is you don't say be careful to children anymore. You might say instead, I've heard this before, what's your plan? So help me understand why you don't say be careful, but you say, What's your plan? And so the parents have a whole rationale for what they're doing now, and they do have things they're reading, and they have parent coaches that are training them. This is kind of new parenting models, and some of those ideas are really good ideas, and so you might want to make sure, oh, I'd love to read that too. What are you reading so that I'm up to date with what you're wanting? Oh, yeah, because there's been all kinds of research on child development. And so we're updating all the time. Some things are just a given, but some things we're learning more about. Like you don't want to say, I'm proud of you. You want to say something about the fact that wow, that's a real I really like what you did there. How do you feel about it? What did you like about it? So that they're not looking to be having you endorse them, but that they can feel like they can own their own value. That's another example of things that have changed in the parenting versus how grandparents raised their own children. Okay. So some of what parents in this generation are needing to do is undo a little bit of what they learned. So, as grandparents, instead of dismissing that, we're saying, well, that's ridiculous. You know, my way is fine, or I can say I'm so proud of you.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Oh, I can imagine people listening thinking, this is ridiculous. Exactly. I'm sure there are people who think that sounds that sounds like you know, new age thinking or something. And they probably maybe they're thinking what worked for me was just fine, you turned out okay. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Exactly. You turned out okay. Yeah, but I didn't love. Like I want to return for a moment to what you said. What are the places where curiosity needs to be augmented by something more like concern? I would say anytime you're physically concerned about anybody there, you're physically concerned about someone's actual physical well-being, that would be a time that as a grandparent, you may need to intervene more in a more serious way. Yeah, like if the parent is spanking the child a lot out of frustration, or they're just letting them wander around in areas of their home in a place where they could fall and injure themselves, that there's maybe not enough supervision, or they're saying, well, they need to find their way, they need to, they need to develop their own resiliency and learn from falling down. Well, yes, but what if you're near steps? And what do we need to do to protect the steps? And of course, all of these kind of interventions need to be done in a way that's very respectful of parents and understanding their children. They may be overcorrecting for parents that were right in their face, so worried all the time, that they're like, oh, they're fine, but maybe they're not entirely fine. And so these negotiations can be very tricky to manage.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Okay. What are some fundamental misunderstandings that tend to crop up between the the young, the new parents and the grandparents?

SPEAKER_02 10:53

I think one can be everybody believes they know better. And in my view, there's some really old ideas, old as the hells, that are great ideas. And there's some new ideas, brand new ideas, that are also great ideas. And can we be in conversation instead of everybody holding to their belief system and ignoring or dismissing the other person?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

So, what are some of the old ideas that are sort of universal and timeless? I'm thinking you can't give a child too much love. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

There is no limit on love. That said, there should and needs to be a limited on indulgence. You don't want to indulge a child's every whim. You don't want them to feel that they're you're entirely available to them. That some grandparents I hear complaining with the new generation that if a child said jump, they say how high. And what that teaches the child is an unrealistic expectation of the parents' availability. And that ends up translating to people in their lives moving forward. So if you're not careful, you are training the child to expect that you're entirely available to them, which of course is not reasonable, and you're not helping them build appropriate and necessary frustration tolerance.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah, so you don't want the child to feel like they're the center of the universe, but you're you're you're building a little narcissist, is what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

But you may already may feel that way as a young child, but then as they get older, they have to start building a little resilience, particularly if they're a single child, if they're if they have a sibling, then that will come naturally, that they'll begin to decenter because they'll begin to understand they're part of a group and that it isn't all on their terms.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Got it. What are some other fundamental misunderstandings you hear about?

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I think that people think we talked about boundaries before, that if you want to be involved, you ought to just be able to do whatever you want as a grandparent. After all, you're the parent and you're in the center of this family. Well, no, you're not. That's a fundamental misunderstanding. You're not in the center of this family. This is a separate family. Now, in our culture in the US, there's a wide range of how people think about families. Italian families are often clannish. Jewish families are often clannish. That means that everybody's on the first level. Everybody's really important. That's how you end up seeing really large family gatherings for weddings and funerals and different events. Then there are other people who are much much more insular, and how they think about family that they say once you marry, you're separate from. Then we talk about extended family. There's a neutral, new the nuclear family, which is primary and everybody else is secondary, and then you don't even have to think about the extended family. So when people from different backgrounds partner, this can lead to a lot of confusion about how we navigate boundaries. So that's another fundamental thing that can be really misunderstood. I would say the most basic misunderstanding, though, is intention. I rarely think people have bad intentions. So even if you don't understand at all where someone's coming from, chances are maybe they didn't say it very well or that they didn't say something they should have said. But the chances are whatever they did or didn't do, that they were coming from a loving, caring place. And that's just true in families, is what I would say. That's a given. And that that can be really misunderstood within the family, depending on what kind of background you come from, how you were raised to talk about or not talk about things in the family. Teresa, plenty of people don't talk about any of this in the family. So when people aren't talking, people can draw their own conclusions about what the person means by what they said. And another fundamental thing I would say, most people are sensitive. Most people can get their feelings hurt and can feel hurt and insulted when they don't feel regarded and recognized. And how it is they feel regarded and recognized is the job within the family on both sides. Grandparents should take the lead, but everybody needs to be aware. Okay, what is my parents' love language? How do I want to talk with my parent about this so that we can have a good conversation? How do I want to talk with my child so we can have a good conversation?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Okay, so this is bringing up something that was a delicate tub subject when I was a parent and of small kids and my mother-in-law, who I loved very much, just passed away. Um probably wouldn't be saying this if she were still alive, because I really do love her and she was great, except I I had certain things that I asked her not to give our children. And I also she she her love language was giving gifts, and she loved to give gifts. And she was very good at it. But I felt like it was too much. And even though I had certain restrictions on the types of gifts, she didn't honor that. And it didn't cause you know a huge uh conflict because I I I knew she meant well, but uh it did bother me that she didn't listen to what I said. And I don't know what could have I could have done differently. You know, when she gave a present, I didn't want my daughter to play with, I just didn't, I just gave it to charity. That was how I dealt with it, because talking to her didn't work.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

I think that's a hard spot to be in, that that she doesn't listen. I would say one of the major requirements for being a good grandparent, if that's our goal here, is that you do listen. And if somebody specifically tells you something, you try hard to acknowledge that. So I know, you know, my stepdaughter said, you know, he has enough race cars. And so I had a little race car I wanted to bring, but I asked her her permission before I gave it to him. Would you like me to give this to him now, or should I wait until the next visit and hold on to it? And she said, no, this is okay, because it was just a little teeny thing, no big deal. But I don't know that it would have been so well received if I just ignored her and gave it to him anyway.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Ah, good point. You're listening to Couples in Connections with clinical psychologist, Dr. Cynthia Post. I'm Teresa Sullivan Barker. What you just said is so critical. Can you can you tell me more about that? Maybe give give some other examples of complaints that you've heard from parents toward what the grandparents have done to disrespect them and how I mean it may I mean maybe your example is all we need. I mean, that seems like the perfect no, that seems like a perfect solution, but not every grandparent is going to be that, I guess, sensitive.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Well, if we dig in on that example and we point out that some people might say, Oh, for goodness sakes, what's one more car? It's just a little car after all. Well, you know what? That's not my call to make. That's a parents' call. So there's a way that I think sometimes grandparents were older, we're wiser, we've already been parents. What did they know? They're brand new on the block being parents. So that's a silly idea. I'm gonna override that idea and bring the toy along anyway. And then what is the message you're telecasting to your children? A message of disrespect. So it doesn't matter that I think it's a small item, which I did think. It doesn't matter that I think that. That's good for me that I think that, but it's not up to me to decide whether the child should receive it now. It's up to the parent to decide when the child should receive it. And I don't even have to agree with everything they request of us. I need to understand it. If I'm confused by it, I can ask about it, but it's not my job to make a judgment and a decision about whether that is right or wrong. That is the parent's job. The lovely part about being a grandparent is you get to be there and support them. You get to play with the grandchildren, you get to be part of potential parenting conversations, which is a very coveted and amazing position to be in, should you be chosen for that, that they actually ask your opinion is the highest of compliments. But you shouldn't expect to be asked your opinion, nor should you be offering it without their express request.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Okay. So how do you get to be in that relationship? How do you get to the point where your your presence is valued and appreciated, where when they when the parents have a question, they ask you for your input and you where they feel like you are a great resource and and support and and the source of love for their child, how do you do that? That seems perfect. Like that seems like the ideal thing. And I I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't get to that point.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

The way that I would say it, I guess, is that this kind of harkens back to one of the earlier grandparenting episodes. But on the if in the event that you live away from your children, then you want to have special times where you can be in person for a period of time. So maybe, and if you have more than one child, maybe you rent a house on the beach where there are lots of fun activities around for children during the day when you don't want them sitting in the blazing sun, you know, and you don't want all the time to be at the beach. You come up with a creative, structured trip that everybody in the family can come and be together that is fun. So you're the fun person. You're the person who offers support that is wanted, and they experience you at least trying to do what they're asking, that they can see that you're trying, you're not gonna always get it right. And that you have the kind of relationship where they can say, I totally saw you were trying there, but actually I prefer it this way, that they tell you that that's such a gift. And for that gift, you should say, Thank you for telling me, don't get your feelings hurt. So you're not gonna get your feelings hurt, you're gonna show up with fun ideas, like when you're a distant parent, grandparent, meaning at a distance physically, that you're looking for times throughout the year to do things with them and be with them in real time for a little bit of a substantial amount of time, like maybe a week or two in the year. You know, of course, this has to be negotiated with them because they have other people to attend to besides you. Exactly. So you have to do it in a way that is thoughtful and sensitive. Like maybe you say, we'd like to come up with an idea of how to see you this year, and we'd like to float some dates. We'd like to come up with a plan for that week. Give let us know if any of these weeks could.

unknown 22:00

Work.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

And then and then everybody kind of votes on it and you come up with a plan. Then you share your ideas and you give them a few ideas and everybody gets to vote on it. So they're part of it. So I think inclusion is important. I think curiosity is important. I think open expression of feelings in a very sensitive, thoughtful way is important. And I think make room for the idea that some things won't land well and that if they don't, the person can come back to you and tell you so.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

And I guess one other question is do you hear people complain, who are the grandparents, that they're being, they're being, they just feel like they're a babysitter and they're they feel like they're taken advantage of. Does does that also happen?

SPEAKER_02 22:44

I think it does. That's kind of the other end of the continuum. There are the parents who want control of their story at the beginning and they want to set the chart, the plans, chart the course, and they don't want their kit kids to be taken over by grandparents. Then there are the other parents who really just want to get a break from their kids and they give it entirely to the grandparents. And the grandparents feel like, excuse me, we have a life too. You didn't give us any notice. We came running over here, and maybe the plans change and they don't even want you now, but nobody told you anything about that. So now you're annoyed, but you're you have to be careful in that environment how you express that because you don't want to be cut off the list just because you expressed your annoyance and now they don't feel safe asking you. And they may not yet see themselves very clearly, they may not recognize that they're there's a way they're taking you for granted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

So if a grandparent is feeling like it's too much, how does that grandparent let the parents know it's too much?

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Well, that's not a bad sentence. I think maybe an even better sentence might be something like, you know, we are so thrilled that you invite us to be with you and that you want us to help with your kids. I can't imagine a nicer honor, honestly. And we are here as much as we possibly can be. But please know there may be times that we have to say no. And that isn't because we don't value being grandparents. We value it more than you could ever know. But sometimes we want to give you a heads up, we may not be able to do this. And also, you can help us be successful and being able to be there when you really want us there, and that you pick when you really want us there so that we know, so that we can plan accordingly. Now, because here's the thing, Teresa. No parent wants the grandparents' only joy in life to be the grandchildren. Right. And nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. The grandparents shouldn't want that, and neither should the children or grandchildren want that. Why? Because guess what? Those children grow up and they don't want to be even around the parents, let alone the grandparents. So there's a sweet spot when they love being around their grandparents, and that's a beautiful thing with their parents and their grandparents. And the parents and grandparents have to share that space somehow, making ample room for the parents first, because those may be working parents and they may have limited time with their own children. And then the grandparents get to augment that and give the parents a break so that they can have a break to themselves and they can enjoy that special time. But grandparents need to have a life of their own. And we want grandparents to be thriving independently as long as possible. And the more of a support system and life of their own they have, the less they'll be unnecessarily dependent on the younger generation before it's really necessary. The longer grandparents can be engaged and happy and joyful to participate and maintain their own hobbies, their own engagement with their own friends, their own social, religious organizations, whatever, all the better for everyone. Those are healthy engagements that are based on want, not need. Now, there's always need in relationships, and the need changes. First the child needs the parent, then the parent needs the child. But we don't want to foreclose the grandparents' time being independent early because we're asking them to be there all the time and they have to cut off all their social connections because some people do that, and that's not actually in anybody's interest.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Got it. Makes perfect sense. Well, thank you. This was this was really helpful. Thank you. You have been listening to Couples and Connections Conversations with Clinical Psychologist Dr. Cynthia Post. I'm health journalist Teresa Sullivan Barger. For more information, visit CynthiapostPhd.com. That's Cynthiapostph.com. Listen for new episodes on Fridays, and please tell your friends and family about couples and connections.