Blond & Quantum 4: Quantum Advantage, Readiness & Real-World Use Cases | Michael Cuthbert, Director of NQCC

In this episode of Blonde and Quantum, I sit down with Michael Cuthbert, Director of the UK's National Quantum Computing Centre (NQCC) — the organisation established by the British government to shape and develop the quantum industry across the United Kingdom.

We dive deep into the UK's quantum journey, from its pioneering 2014 national programme to the latest £1 billion government commitment. Michael shares insights on the NQCC's testbed programme (seven quantum computers across five qubit modalities), real-world use cases in healthcare, finance, and logistics, and the critical question of whether the UK can stay ahead in the global quantum race.

We also explore:

• The structure behind the UK's regional quantum hubs
• What quantum advantage really means (and why it matters)
• How companies can achieve quantum readiness today
• What CEOs should do to prepare for the quantum era
• And Michael's personal take on the future of quantum in healthcare

Plus, I make a rather memorable mispronunciation of Oxford Ionics — twice. 🙈 My sincerest apologies to Michael and the team!

🎙️ Guest: Michael Cuthbert | Director, National Quantum Computing Centre (NQCC)

🎧 Host: Eva Galant | Founder, investor, and creator of Blond & Quantum

If you enjoyed this conversation, don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share — more episodes with global leaders in quantum are coming soon.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey, my name is Eva, and this is Blond and Quantum, the podcast that breaks down quantum technology into real-world business paper. Here we make the complex simple. No equation, no overthinking, just insight, innovation, and a bit of QR. So don't worry, you don't need a PhD in physics to follow. In each episode, I talk to funders, scientists, and investors about how quantum is reshaping the industry's today, not in some distant future. Oh, and if you hear a black cat boring in the background, that's my co-host, very alive shorting-air cat joining the conversation. Her name is Moon. Let's get started. Hello everyone, welcome to the next episode of Blonde and Quantum. Today with me is uh Michael Caffbert, a director of National Quantum Computing Centre in the UK. The organization that was created by the British government to shape and develop quantum industry across the United Kingdom. Michael, thank you so much uh for being with us today, and good afternoon to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Great to be with you, Eva. Looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Perfect. Let's start talking a little bit about National Quantum Computing Center. Um, can you tell us what exactly is happening inside um NQ?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Sure. So we were established in 2020 and it was recognizing that quantum computing, specifically amongst quantum technologies, has a long technology roadmap. It was still at a very immature condition in the UK and globally. So we had lots of um early startups coming out of the research ecosystem, and they were mainly still at the kind of 10 or maybe 20 people within their companies, so still very early stage. And the UK government wanted to establish a national laboratory that would have some longevity in thinking about some of the challenges on quantum computing. So so yeah, we were set up 2020 with an initial view, I think, of scaling the quantum computing technology. And over um the next 12 months or so after that, it would recognize actually scaling the user community is just as important as scaling the technology itself. So we've been developing a program, and and we're now you know six years on that really tries to encompass all aspects of quantum computing or the technology, thinking about infrastructures, how do we integrate into data centers? How do we um you know we've built a national lab and laboratories here uh in the UK? Thinking about applications, what are the industry use cases, how will they evolve over time? Small problems now, how do we progress to large-scale problems in the future? Um, and then skills and workforce development. If we really want to drive a quantum industry, we need to train and mobilize um a far greater number of people across a variety of skills, not just in physics, maybe the traditional area in quantum research. So a host of different activities. And out of that, I think we've really been looking at how do we, in simple terms, how do we build, how do we host, and how do we utilize quantum computers?

SPEAKER_02 3:29

That's make a lot of sense. And in terms of the lab that you mentioned, um, so I understand you are hiring your own researchers and scientists in the center. How many of them do you have right now?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, so we have a team of about 80 people now, and then we have a collaboration with the University of Edinburgh where they have around 60 people working on theory. So together we've, you know, quite a sizable team.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

And I think it's also worth to mention because probably a lot of people are not aware that you are a physical place, you have a beautiful facility just um in the area of Oxfordshire. Can you tell us a little bit more about the facilities as well? Because I know that would be the next topic, that you also provide a bed testing for quantum startups. So if you can let us through a little bit of the of the of the facility and um physical spaces, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, sure. So we've got we've actually got two facilities, one that is about 400 square meters, and the main facility, which is 4,000 square meters. And both of those spaces is a mix of laboratory space, collaboration space, and then um you know office environment for our staff to work. Um, the smaller of the facilities uh are innovation hub. So it is part of the Harwell campus here in Oxfordshire. So Harwell is uh where many of the UK's big physics national laboratories are located. So Diamond Light Source or Synchrotron, the Isis Neutron source for neutron scattering. So some of those big national facilities. But adjacent to those big national labs is a really thriving innovation campus. So we have, I think, now something over 200 companies co-located with our national labs across healthcare, energy, digital, and it now in quantum. So our smaller innovation lab is part of that quantum cluster. And then a the main national lab is part of the you know, the national lab campus. And yeah, as I say, it's a mix of traditional laboratory space, but also um collaborative environment where people can come work with our staff, work with partners, we can host um networking meetings uh and events. So that that's that's kind of great.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

I I would like to actually talk a little bit more about it on your offering for the company. So if the company works for your doors, what they can actually do there or what they can test there, considering that I'm a small startup, maybe just spinner of I don't know, University of Bristol. What is your offering for the startups?

SPEAKER_00 6:14

So we've got a variety of things we can offer to startups and indeed to researchers and and um a you know academics and government users. But first thing I would say is access to cons compute resources. So we we have centrally procured access to cloud services and we run both industry-facing proof of concept projects as well as academic research, you know, call for proposals on a quarterly basis. So where a company either has a technical problem they would like to explore using a quantum computer, they can make a proposal and we can work with them. But some companies are perhaps just a bit quantum curious and want to figure out is contributing even a technology they need to be uh thinking about. So we also have what we call our Spark program. So this is industry engagement by sector, thinking about use cases, thinking about um best practice, thinking about um networking across different industry sectors, and then providing access to compute resource as well as our software and applications expertise.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

So this is actually fantastic. So considering that let's say there's two or three researchers who are working on something on a university, even and if they want to produce based on that technology, product or services, they're coming to you and they're talking to specific industrial experts to help them find those use cases. That's what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Yeah, that's right. So exploring those use cases, and because the technology is still very immature, it's important to try and identify problems that are actually things we can tackle with today's con computers and not con computers of the future, which may be very large scale. So I think that that kind of resource estimation, um, really trying to ground things in the reality of today's capabilities is important because we don't want people to feel either disappointed that concomputers are still at a very early stage or get trapped by the hype surrounding quantum that suddenly it will solve it problems as if by magic. So we've we've got to kind of try and strike a balance.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Grow from the reality.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

The other things we've been doing is more at the kind of collaboration level, thinking what are some of the technical bottlenecks that limit, you know, perhaps an individual company or perhaps more of the whole ecosystem, and how can we collaborate in the lab working on technology development? So that's that's also something that that we do.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Um and then just about that. So I have read in your report that you spent over 30 million pounds on for the bet testing from different companies. Can you tell us a little bit more about that offering? Because I think it's also very unique and very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, so so this was a program that we ran with Innovate UK, which is one of the funding agencies in the UK. Um, so we placed uh what are called it um contracts for innovation. So this is a kind of pre-procurement exercise. We ran a competition, we now have seven commercial quantum computers already deployed within the National Quantum Computing Center across five different qubit modalities. So not all not all quantum computers are equal. So we have trapped ions, photonics, neutral atoms, superconducting systems, and semiconducting platforms. So we're able to really uh now examine how do these systems perform, which applications and algorithms might be best suited for different qubit types. Do we understand the sources of noise and error? And does that inform our decisions around how we would scale these platforms to large-scale um devices in the future? So those tests are now fully delivered. We've we're now running a program of test and evaluation with our colleagues in Edinburgh at the Quantum Software Lab. And from there, we would like to then start to make some of these tests available for our collaboration partners so to actually make them available for use. What we don't want to do is to come up with any kind of competing offering compared to industry. So where people actually want to use a cloud-based quantum computer and they're from industry, we want to actually see people develop expertise and go buy access time for a computer. This is much more about understanding the the basics of how do these systems work? What can we learn from those sources of it? Training and like a trial for the but I think also in really being able to compare the different technology types, the different technology platforms, and identify which ones are best suited for certain uh purposes.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Yeah, the offering on quantum computers in terms of the hardware is pretty comprehensive. So a lot of people are actually losing themselves. What are the differences, right? Um okay, and what's about the funding opportunities? Does NQCC offer any funding opportunities for startups?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

So not directly from ourselves. So we are able to fund some of these modest kind of technology sprint type projects, but we do partner with Innovate UK and we also partner with um uh the other research councils in terms of incubation, kind of community effort at the Harwell campus where we can develop and help nurture startups and spin-outs. And um, we also work with uh with some of the universities in the UK and thinking about how technology comes out of the lab and we can support that commercialization pathway. I think it's fair to say in the quantum ecosystem, many of the startups are still research companies. So they're not yet at a point of making driving products and services. So again, how how can we support um them through that research phase, which may be access to lab space, it may be access to expertise, access to compute resource, access to equip um specific equipment. Um, so we're very open to working with with startups to try and help them on that journey. And in some cases, that's been about offering a bit of advice on their technical roadmap and perhaps acting as a critical friend, just providing a bit of challenge um around uh some of those new business ideas.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Makes sense. Okay, and I I noticed also on your website that you partnership with a lot of of the industry leaders, potential startups who walk through your doors, can they potentially validate some of those business ideas or use cases with those big corporates? Is this something that you facilitate, or is it more that um you provide the experts, but if they want to talk to uh the big enterprise companies, they need to do it on themselves?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

So certainly we run community workshops where many of those the IT majors would be would be present, they'll come along, and so there's that kind of networking and connection opportunity. We I think as an independent national lab, we have a real privilege to be able to convene the community. So we actually we're able to bring people together and you know, connect them with each other in a way that is perhaps sometimes much more difficult for you know, certainly for small startups to be able to connect to some of those IT majors so we we actually can get people in the same room. And we have the opportunity in some of those workshops to showcase some innovative thinking, new ideas that gives those startups an audience that they can actually demonstrate some of the work they've been doing in front of key decision makers, key influencers in a way that I think it would be very difficult for them to do typically on their own. So it's more of a convening role rather than matchmaking.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

That makes sense. Okay. Um, last question on NQZ. What are the real some kind of real-world problems that you may talk about that are right now exploring with quantum computing inside the labs today?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

So beyond the the kind of hardware um technical developments, I mean the areas that we've been exploring from a use case perspective, and we've published some of this. Um we have a use case compendium that's available on our our website. I think there's there's one or two that I think are really interesting early stage explorations. So, one um we'd be working on with a company called Unisys, uh, and this is on optimization of cargo loading on um on aircraft. Um so uh so this is a classic optimization problem. And the challenge is on an on a long haul flight, if you don't have the center of mass of the plane exactly right, even just out by 75 centimeters, the the aircraft will consume 4,000 kilograms of additional fuel per flight. So it's uh it's a cost issue, it's a logistics issue, and ultimately it then becomes a um uh greenhouse gas issue of the additional fuel consumption. So we've we've been working with uh with UNISIS on looking at how we can use almost toy problems around optimization of um of loading, both uh and in a kind of iterative way of cargo freight. Um that's at a stage where um we think that can be turned into a a service as such. Now, whether it's yet at the point of real-time implementation across airports around the world, almost certainly not, um at least as a kind of test case, uh make making early progress. So that's one type. Um fraud detection in the banking industry, so that's another area that um there's been a lot of interest.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Fraud costs the UK 200 billion pounds per year, and so even a 1% improvement, not necessarily some kind of uh quantum advantage, just a 1% improvement is um is worth a lot of money. So we've been we've been working with a number of the banks on that front. And then the last one I'd highlight, uh, which is still at a very early stage, is using a um quantum computer for a classification um technique in early cancer detection, where there are um screening um cancer tests that can be run that uh we can actually differentiate different types of cancer by screening for different types of cancer cells and then classifying them using a quantum computer. Again, it's at a very, very early stage, but it's beginning to highlight um quantum computers could play a really important role in um areas that impact all of us, not just very niche kind of um industrial processes, but you know, potentially in healthcare as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

You don't need to convince me on that. I'm very passionate about all the healthcare um use cases on quantum computing because that's my background as well. So drug discovery and um early cancer detection are really something that sounds super exciting for me. But okay, Michael, I would like to change a little bit of topic and talk right now about a broader UK ecosystem because obviously you have all the knowledge we we need. And starting from the basic, how many quantum startups do we have in UK right now? Approximately. What's your guess?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Yeah, so there's there's about 50 uh true quantum startups in the UK. There are lots of other quantum supply chain companies, um, some of which are very mature and have been around for decades. But of the pure quantum companies, there's around 50 startups, and roughly half are in computing, the others in sensing, imaging, networking.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

That's very interesting. Yep. That is in line of the knowledge that I have in terms of how quantum computing versus sensing and networking are uh developing, those are still a little bit smaller but rapidly growing, growing for the last couple of years. Okay, can you tell you uh can you tell us now about the regional hubs? UK has developed several regional quantum hubs and specialization. And can you tell us a little bit, like first of all, explain it um how this ecosystem was structured and what was the rationale behind it? Because it's actually very interesting. I never saw it in in another country, but the country split by specific um you know specialization. So please tell us a little bit more about it.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah, so um so when the UK National Programme in Quantum Technologies was established in 2014.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Which is one of the first in Europe, not one of the first, the first in the world. It is fascinating. Everyone else was like 2018, 19, 2021. UK was the first one. This is something that definitely we're gonna follow up um in a second.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah. So so when the program was established, um, there were a few startups, but actually it was predominantly academic research endeavor. And so we recognized and went through a whole series of of road mapping and then competition calls, looking to the community for input ideas and developing their plans. And what came out of that work were four hub structures that networked a series of university research groups across a host of different universities, as well as connecting to different companies and industry partners, focused on four different technologies. So quantum computing and networked quantum computing, quantum sensing, quantum imaging, and quantum communications. So the four hubs initially had very much an individual technology focus, and they happened to be distributed. The kind of headquarter university happened to be distributed in Glasgow, in York, in the north of England, in Birmingham, and in Oxford. So it was a very deliberate technology focus that then developed this regional network structure. But there were a number of universities, um, a you know, University of Bristol, for example, they were partners with all four of the hubs. So it was a highly collaborative, highly networked effort to really leverage the UK into a very strong position. So those ran for five years. They were renewed with some mod, you know, some changes to the their focus and their structures and the some of the partners. And then after 10 years, there was then a effectively a recompete of those hubs. So we now have five hubs that are slightly different makeups, led by different different universities in some cases, and a fifth one focused on a particularly quantum for healthcare as a as a new hub that is perhaps more focused on. the application and less focused on the technology itself. And where we can use sensing or imaging or computing for healthcare. So and I I think that is perhaps a trend we'll see more of where the the emphasis will move to the application and less on the technology itself.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

100%. And everyone's looking looking forward to it as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah. So so that's the if you like the academic research hubs. Alongside that we had a program on quantum for fundamental research. So think our fundamental physics so thinking about timing and sensing particularly of what sort of fundamental physics can we can we learn, can we uncover using these new technologies? And then I think really importantly we've um had a series of doctoral training centers networking different universities where we can see the pipeline of the future talent being developed. So we had three of those doctoral training centers initially but that dropped down to two and we now have five um across the country from theory and information science all the way through to different aspects of um of quantum technologies and the hardware. So I think that's also been a really important part of the ecosystem that it's not just the technology it's also ensuring we're we've got that pipeline of of skills and capability.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah. This this strategy is very interesting and I hope that maybe perhaps other countries will follow and replicate that and itself because the concentration as you said about you know all of the researchers of demia um in one region I I think it can help to rapidly grow the industry um in those specific subsectors. Okay let's let's talk a little bit about UK as we mentioned was a pioneering in those governmental structure policy and um and and and basically creating those programs on national level. 2013 very impressive um because obviously it was so early you are guys like first movers. France 2021 Germany I think 2018 Netherlands 2017 I think a lot of the other countries in Europe they follow much later. I think Saudi Arabia only last year added quantum as a strategic initiative to their um vision 2030. So please tell me what's the role today that does UK aim to play in the global quantum race?

SPEAKER_00 24:41

I think the UK wants to maintain our position as a as a leader um as a thought leader as well as an actual leader um both you know on the technical side the research community but for sure in building this this quantum industry I measure we have about 50 startups lots of mature supply chain companies on an annual basis we have a quantum showcase held in London which has become a really successful event. Last year in November we had three and a half thousand delegates and I think a hundred and five exhibitors including some some international uh delegations I think that's recognition that the UK is not just a quantum program but we have a quantum industry and I think the government's goal is to really drive economic growth and societal benefit through that quantum industry that is a good news tech story but it also in driving the applications that create benefit for you know everyday citizens then it's also a good news story um in terms of the application of quantum technologies and how that that benefits people uh in the UK and and and globally of course um so I I think that ambition um is clear uh you know just earlier this week the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Secretary of State have made a a series of announcements around the kind of next phase of the UK program um committed a billion a further billion pounds over the next four years for ongoing research development um can I stuck you on about because these are all obviously very big numbers one billion is smaller than the commitment of other European countries Germany right now are aiming for four to five billion dollars France committed already to two billion dollars is UK in the risk to fall um behind with a only one billion dollar investment so I mean that that's always a risk but you know governments have to balance um their RD spend versus their uh you know their other commitments I think for the UK and if we just try and play a numbers game the size of the UK is the UK's economy then the risk is we we would never win. I think what the role at my view the role of government is to signpost that ambition and intent and create an environment that means we will see much greater levels of investment from venture capital and from corporate investment into the UK that will match the government's ambition rather than assuming that the taxpayer will pay for everything.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

That's correct. Speaking of this 13 years of creating quantum industry in the UK has um couple of very big wins and successes. I'm thinking here about Psyquantum, Oxford iconics all those company companies are deeply rooted in the UK industry and came out of UK universities. Can you tell us a little bit more about those and potentially other wins that I may not be aware of um for this over these 13 years of quantum industry existing?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Yeah sure and um I'm gonna miss somebody out here I'm sure people will be people will be upset but yeah you're right we've got some really fantastic companies fantastic technology that's been developed in the UK yeah so you you you mentioned three there Psi Quantum Quantinum and Oxford Ionix I think I would say we can extend that to the likes of Oxford Quantum Circuits, Orca Computing, AGIC, River Lane who focus on error correction, who are working with a host of companies and organizations around the world phasecraft come out of the University of Bristol and University College London who've focused on uh applications and algorithm development. So they are less of they're kind of hardware agnostic but really focusing on the value of utilizing computers. And then there's a host of other companies that have developed a very strong UK presence albeit that they're um you know they're foreign owned so the likes of inflection, reggetti computing and this is because of talent that um is existing in in the UK?

SPEAKER_02 29:12

UK is I think positioned as um uh as a top three in terms of talent density on quantum industrial just after uh US and China does you think the talent is attracting the foreign companies so certainly access to talent but I think it's also being part of that really quite fast moving ecosystem.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

So I think the UK government have been able to move quite quickly in making funding decisions. The ecosystem is highly collaborative, very well networked certainly for the computing companies there is also a rich seam of potential clients in the UK so I already mentioned you know some of the big industries like pharmaceuticals, like logistics, energy, financial services the UK already has very mature end user markets, albeit quantum computing may be new to those end user markets, but but there's potential end users available. And then I think the other thing to highlight is the kind of the infrastructure that's available in the UK, whether that's the likes of the National Quantum Computing Center, some of the university hubs, clean rooms of advanced manufacturing that there's um there's an environment that's really welcoming to overseas companies to come and co-locate here and find new business partners, find new customers, find new employees, but also there is infrastructure that means you can actually develop those products and services um it you know successfully in the UK as well. So that and I think programs like our test bed program have been catalysts to bring country companies to the UK who were perhaps looking particularly from the US looking for to establish themselves in Europe and had an open mind about where in Europe and then find well here's a program where actually somebody wants to act as an early customer for a technology at a very early stage and de-risk that roadmap and that pathway to commercial success. So seeing the UK as a as a great place to be and I think um Quera, the US company from Massachusetts another good example of a company that we've been working very closely with who wanted to co-locate with us to be part of our test program and to develop that kind of rich um collaboration.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Okay so speaking of of Quera aren't you scared that those um let's say American big companies they may be also attracted to UK market in terms of potential acquisition or acquiring those smaller startups like it happened to Oxford Iconic. So obviously critics say this can be two sides right it can be a huge success because Oxford Iconic was acquired by IoQ for a huge amount of money was over I think one billion dollar transaction from what I recall. But some critics say yes but this company could stay in UK and could develop to be over billion or two billion or three billion in the future and stay stay in the UK and not being acquired. So it could be considered as being a loss. So do you have from your perspective a fear that some of those biggest companies can you know try to monopolize or cannibalize the market in the UK?

SPEAKER_00 32:40

So that's that's always a risk that some of the the real UK success stories look um inexpensive to acquire for some of these uh these very big players especially those who've raised very significant amounts of money through some of the special acquisition mechanisms in the in the US market I think that's a bit of a fact of life that tech companies get to a certain level and then they um they need access to capital to grow and I would love to talk a little bit more about it because actually that's why I'm mentioning continuum and and uh um as well yeah um because there is a lot of discussion if not only UK but the whole Europe in a sense have a structural funding gap that those specifically startup on the growth stage they have no really a lot of options in terms of acquiring more equity based funding that's why they all either move to US or trying to go IPO and so on. What what's your view on that um yeah so so it's it's certainly a challenge of the kind of that route to um patient capital. It's also a challenge around where some of the institutional investment typically goes in Europe, which has perhaps got a lower risk appetite than in the US historically but I think that's exactly why the Chancellor and the Secretary of State made the announcements if for the UK because the second half of the the announcement this week was an advanced market commitment for government procurement of a large scale cold computer in the kind of 20 early 2030s. So I think those sort of demonstrations of both government ambition and commitment is what will anchor companies in the UK so that's you know that's what we want to see. And it will give investors confidence that this isn't technology for the sake of technology this is real technology development with commitment from government the government actually wants to use these technologies and will be a um will be a customer of those technologies as they mature and I think that's a really important kind of flag to the investors.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

And that is very important as well and we know those models work very well on different markets in the US through DARPAN defense contract and so on. But actually I wanted to ask you on on that point should the government be a customer only or should the government also step in in the lack of gross stage funding and become perhaps an investor we can observe in Europe in France a good example is uh government investing through BPI France in those French quantum startups including Alice and Bob and Pascal Pascal recently announced they're going public in the US but they basically emphasize very strongly that they the purpose is to to become not become remain a French company and not a US company how it happened how it happened for example with uh PsychQuantum which is a considered to be a big loss and actually yesterday I I read an article in Guardian where Liz Kendall was speaking about that how UK should not allow um what happened to AI industry and the brain drainage and and losing of the talent and you should do everything to remain the talent in the quantum industry inside the country so we don't have other examples like DeepMind or other examples like SciQantum. What's your view on that should should the government step in as an investor as well?

SPEAKER_00 36:38

So I think that that's it's certainly um it's a great ambition and we should want to to anchor those companies and keep them in the UK I think in terms of anchoring companies in the UK a government investment there are other mechanisms than just the kind of a direct investment from the Department of Science Innovation and Technology um so that which is historically it's been much more research driven. So there's um there are other mechanisms like the National Security Strategic Investment Fund, the British Business Bank the National Wealth Fund. So there are other other government investment mechanisms not directly but still invest in a quantum startup yes and so they they have government backed funds that will so this is not grant funding this is much more of a taking equity perhaps having observers on board a much more of a a typical investment kind of play they are less likely to lead an investment round but certainly to join an investment round and they genuinely you know they take equity stakes and they they seek to make money in the deal but they're also recognizing where there is the risk of market failure that the government can't support and provide some reassurance perhaps to other investors that the government takes this company, this technology, this investment seriously so so there are a number of other mechanisms and in that way having that balance between a government funded activity or procurement where that's taxpayer funded versus government backed investment where the taxpayer would and should be looking to see some level of of return on investment um it creates a you know a balanced economy rather than it just being a one-way street of the the taxpayer has to pay for everything. So there are some of those those other other mechanisms um you know you mentioned the DARPA program uh earlier the UK Ministry of Defense um has been perhaps a bit quieter than some of the other um departments of defense around around the uh the the world but have also been making either uh early procurements a I've been developing some in-house capability but I think one of the things that for example the UK Ministry of Defence did at a very early stage was support PhD students. So actually having MOD-funded PhD positions meant that they had an early sight and observation of how the technology was developing and of course it it also develops a long-term pipeline of um new employees and and staff for the future people who come come from that technical background and then move into the um the defense sector so I think there's there's perhaps lots of small things have been happening around the ecosystem that are not always so visible rather than just the the big headline numbers in terms of the the quantum investment.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

That's great and thank you so much for sharing this because as as you said that's maybe not always visible for the broader public. Michael um I would like to shift our discussion a little bit now maybe for lighter topics and just talk a little bit about the field itself about the industry and your views on that and your views on the future. So where do you think we are today in that journey for quantum computing research to the real economic impact?

SPEAKER_00 40:20

How far we are so I think we are 10 years away from true commercial deployment of quantum computing um why do you think it's 10 years?

SPEAKER_02 40:34

I'm sorry for digging in but I ask this question every single guest because the you know the range of opinion is is very vast. How would you justify why 10 years?

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Why not five so if you look at the um a the size of computational problem that a quantum computer really makes a difference on a industrial scale. So if you think of the pharmaceutical industry or finance or logistics a then you need a machine that can run something of the order of a trillion quantum operations. Per second or well just in the the lifetime of the computation itself. So that you need to be able to run about a trillion so 10 to the 12 um coherent operations. So for a a computation of that size then without question you need error correction and you need a a platform that is perhaps on the scale of a million qubits perhaps more 10 million qubits so today we are making really good progress in the hundreds of qubits. So even in that 10 years to go from hundreds of yeah so today we can we can run computation or uh you know a a program that will run a few thousand coherent operations so we need a we need an improvement in performance of a factor of 10 every year for that decade to get to that scale of computation. So I I think for true commercial value we're at least a decade away. But the yeah the let's say the technical roadmap doesn't stop once we have a machine of that scale if you think of how classical compute has developed um we had large mainframe machines in the 1970s but the those utilizing those machines could never have imagined mobile technology as the way that we all actually use compute in our everyday lives now. So there will be new applications in quantum that none of us have thought of yet as the technology develops and I think that in itself is very exciting and it means the roadmap doesn't just you know take 10 years, build a machine and the job is done.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

It it will continue on the very beginning of that journey. Absolutely speaking of can you define for us what's quantum advantage?

SPEAKER_00 43:12

So quantum advantage is where a quantum computer can outperform a classical machine in performing some kind of computational task that a classical machine can either never achieve or will use significantly more resources in in running that computation. So you could view that very specifically from a computing science perspective of um the kind of runtime to perform a specific task and that may be a useful task or it may be a very specific benchmark of performance that actually isn't doing anything useful. It's just a it's just a test of performance. And I think we've got to be a little careful we don't only use those Tests to define our performance, and actually we look for these machines that can do something useful.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

100%.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

But that there may be quantum advantage in the looser term of thinking about quality of data that is generated or reduced energy consumption. So the computation might not be quicker, but we might get gain some other advantage. And then I think there's a there's another factor to this, which is there's a pure computing science definition of quantum advantage. But what about business advantage or research advantage? What can we do that's better by using a quant computer, perhaps integrated with high performance compute, that gives us new insights into science problems, into economic challenges that especially as you said, that sometimes the 2% improvement is a huge improvement in in the money safe for a specific industry. Yes. And I think we we often view quantum computing as being this it's either complete revolution or nothing at all. Whereas I think there's actually a whole spectrum of benefit to be derived from quantum computing over time. But certainly true quantum advantage will be for specific tasks that a quantum computer will outperform a classical computer.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Okay. And now I would like to ask you about something else, because reading your annual report, I get a lot about quantum readiness. So if you can please explain for our audience how you are uh your guys in the National Quantum Computing Center understand the quantum readiness. How would you define it?

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Yeah, so I think quantum readiness is about industry and actually the public at large getting themselves prepared for the adoption of quantum computing. And that might be within their industry sector, it might be within their company, or it might be by others within their sector or within their competitors. So I think it's for companies, it may be as simple as ensuring that they have cryptography and cybersecurity in place for the advent of quant computing, have they secured their data? Um, but I think for for other companies, it it is about assessing their sector, their market, the computational tasks and problems they have within that sector, and identifying how could a quant computer, or indeed quantum sensors or quantum networking, quantum imaging, how could that really unlock some of the key challenges in their in their business, in their in their sector? What we've uncovered in trying to explore this is that for many businesses, they don't really fully understand classical compute, never mind quant compute. And so actually some of that's been signposting. What can you do with high performance computing or AI or emerging techniques that you perhaps don't yet need a quant computer for? We uh we worked with um Ernston Young on a industry survey a couple of years ago, uh, which came up with really interesting statistics. So something like 97% of C-suite executives interviewed, it was about 500 companies, uh, people were interviewed. 97% said that quantum computing would or quantum technologies would impact their company and their sector.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Wow. And when was that survey?

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Something like that.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Um just learned recently from Andre Kunik, who was our guest um last month. Basically, most of 500 Fortune companies right now, they already have some kind of quantum division where they're trying to figure out how this can impact their um their industry and their company itself.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

So yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

And learners start start being there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

So then I think 93% of the same companies said they had plans to either have somebody appointed at board level who had responsibility for quantum technologies, or that they would create um a research team or a a division within their company to explore it. But when we then asked, and what have you done, only six percent had um actually turned that into a into a real plan. Now I'm sure that's if we did the same survey again, it would be a higher number now.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

But did they check what was their motivation for having this board-level quantum expert or the division itself? Because I just wonder if this is the the security fear in terms of what you said, you know, cryptology, la la la la la.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Or is it just because they are aware that they need to innovate to not stay behind everyone else.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

So, I mean, some of it is, I'm sure, perhaps a somewhat defensive measure that they perhaps had um not spotted the AI revolution early enough, and therefore we're we're thinking we can't possibly miss this next technology wave. So perhaps that's a bit defensive. I think there is always a risk that it it's driven by hype and the kind of the latest fashion, and that companies need to be seen to their board and their investors and their that they're on top of this future technology. What we've been really trying to drive is education and understanding of what quantum computing can do and what it can't do, and that how does that fit their business model, their industry sector, and their products and services they offer? And even when they don't think quantum is of interest to them, be able to share that best practice from working with others to say, well, it may not be obvious in terms of your products and services, but you can be sure it it's a way of optimizing your supply chain or it's a way of optimizing parts flow in the automotive sector, for example. So I think um there's still a big educational job to be done. It's not simply expecting uh if the um if the chief executive is engaged, then it will automatically flow through to other parts of their those organizations.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

That's making a lot of sense. Okay, so speaking of all of those industry, I know we are running a little bit behind the schedule, so I will try to condense in two last questions if you don't mind. But I would like you, maybe three. I would like you to talk a little bit more on your view on which industry can actually benefit the most from quantum industry from your perspective.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

So I think we've seen, uh said before, early early adoption and financial services. So that's that's certainly an area of um of interest. I think across healthcare, we're going to see continued interest and engagement. And I think not just in computing, but in sensing, especially magnetrometry for looking at uh brain imaging, for example. I think in geophysics, seismology, again, for sensing applications. There's some really exciting developments in quantum imaging in healthcare for looking at cancer cells in breast tissue, for example. So I think there's a there's a range of areas. There are other sectors where, for example, like pharmaceuticals, it feels to me there are quite woolly statements made about pharmaceuticals, for example, as a sector that will really benefit. I think it's part of our job to really drill into that a bit more and say, well, what are the specific problem cases that we can explore with quantum computers that really justify some of those general statements that, oh, well, it's bound to be important. I'm sure it will be, but let's really drill into those specifics. And then I think the other really important one, this is a global challenge, is um uh in energy. And so can we optimize demand from smart grids in terms of renewables, wind turbines, and so forth? Instead of having five or six power stations, you now have 50,000 wind turbines. Um, and can we also come up on those smart grids with mechanisms by which the energy can be stored, where people have electric vehicles and the likes um hooked into the grid? So it's not just a one-way balancing of demand, but it's also balancing out the supply. So I I think there's some genuine dynamic computational challenges where everybody benefits by having the potential for those very complex optimization computational tasks that could be handled by a quantum computer.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Okay, thank you for that. And um, last question on the industry, and there'll be one person out, and we're gonna wrap it up. Um, so Michael, here, what can currently and these days the CEO of companies do to prepare for the quantum era?

SPEAKER_00 53:10

So I think for CEOs, the f the first thing they can do is uh ensure they've got a quantum champion inside their organization. So somebody who lives and breathes. Um the technology is part of the ecosystem, is um engaging across the ecosystem. It can be horizon scanning around what are the new techniques and capabilities as as they develop. I think they then need to identify how do they secure their data such that um they are a centralized them? Yeah, they're they're they're robust to the advent of quantum technologies, quantum computing specifically. Um and then I think they they need to really um uh you know have a build a kind of quantum task force to scrutinize their their business and their processes and understand how could quantum technologies map onto those processes, and then think about their competitors. What will their competitors be doing with a quantum computer that they haven't thought about? And I think that's um crucial role of the kind of CEO to really be challenging not just what might a quantum computer do for us, but what will they do for somebody else? And what will they do for a potential market disruptor that could come in and and then significantly change the kind of those market dynamics and market share. Um so I think it's it's a kind of educational pathway, but I think it can be turned into action quite quickly. The key thing is having the right people in post who understand the technology, are networked into the ecosystem, and then understand their business such that they can map out where the challenges are gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

And keep the hands on the pulse. That's great. Okay, Michael, last very personal question. What excites you personally the most about the future in the quantum industry?

SPEAKER_00 55:12

So for me, I mean, I I I love the technology, I love the science, of course I do, but in the end, it's all about what are we gonna do with a quantum computer as they as they develop, as they scale. And I think, personally speaking, how does that impact the kind of the average citizen? So I think the progress we'll make in healthcare, um, in really understanding disease, you know, things like neurodegenerative disease, in early cancer detection, things that really impact people's lives. There's over a million people in the UK live with a neurodegenerative disease. So how can we uh how can we use quantum computers, quantum technologies to really understand how these conditions take root and that we can find mechanisms by which we can either treat people or we can uh we can slow the onset of those those sorts of conditions. So I think for me that's both what part of the driving force, but also the thing that really excites me.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

That's lovely. Michael, thank you so much. Uh guys, that was Michael Um Caffbert from National Quantum Computing Center in the UK. Michael, thank you so much for being with us today.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

It was my pleasure, Eva. Thanks a lot for having me.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Great job.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

That was Blonde and Quantum. Thank you for joining me on this journey through the quantum business frontier. If you like the episode, please review another Spotify or app podcast and help more people discover the quantum world without needing to untangle the theoretical physics. See you next time the panelists.