James Sills: Stop Waiting For Permission

In this episode of the podcast, I’m joined by James Sills — choir leader, speaker and founder of Gather Sing — to explore the power of singing, creativity, and connection.

James has spent years bringing people together through music, helping audiences rediscover something many of us lost along the way: the confidence to use our voice.

We talk about how singing builds trust, why so many adults stop singing as they grow up, and how creating shared experiences through music can transform teams, communities and organisations.

James also shares the story of being asked to speak at TEDx Manchester with just 48 hours’ notice, and why some of the most important opportunities in life come from saying yes before you feel ready.

This conversation is about permission, creativity, and the courage to start before everything feels perfect.

Whether you love singing, lead teams, or just want to build deeper connections with the people around you, this episode is full of insights.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

So, welcome to the Who's Elvis Round Here podcast, where I get joined by some of the funkiest leaders on the planet, and I get to understand what makes them tick. So uh it's great news to have James on today. So, James Sills is a friend of mine who I've admired from a distance and more recently up close. So it's great to have you on, James. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Yeah, I'm good, thanks, Chris. It's a bit grain rainy here, but uh with you, the orbit, the energy is always flowing, the sun is perpetually out. So I'm just hoping for a little bit of that this afternoon in our conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Well, as I I often say, we make our own weather. So it's uh I I hope it's a pleasant one. Exactly. We've just come back from July, so this is a bit of a shock to you right now, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yeah, it's been from one extreme to the other. Yeah, I was there for a few days um running some workshops out there with the company. Uh so yeah, it was really nice, really warm, very pleasant, and then straight back into the rain. But to be honest, I could do it somewhere in between the two extremes. That's my sweet spot.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Well, look, this is the most British start to podcast I've ever had. Yeah. So look, can you can you can you share uh with the listeners? Uh who are you? What to get up to? Who is James Sills?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, so um I'm a musician, and what I aim to do is to build belonging through communal singing experiences. Um, my um often referred to as a choir starter, which I quite like. Um, but yeah, my kind of background uh was the music education, and then into running community choirs and then workplace choirs, then more recently designing and delivering companies for workshop uh for workshops for companies across the world, using singing to connect people, bring people together to help people find their individual and collective voice, and and just uh creating you know amazing moments for people.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Yeah, and look, there's a crazy power to this. So um uh obviously I'm a huge fan of music, huge fan of singing, and actually we've done some energy experiments together where where you got the team in Elvis singing, and we had a right old good time. Um, so you know, I think that there is something rather magical about what you deliver, and um, and I think we need more choir starters around. So um it'd be great to get your take on on kind of leadership and energy because you've got a very specific kind of way into it. So the the first question is what is the story you love to tell that people love to hear?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I've got a few stories that people love to hear, and they generally are all about times when I've said yes to something when I haven't really been ready for it, but I've kind of had the the vision and the conviction on what I said yes to to kind of follow through and just do it. So there's just a few examples I can I can furnish you with. Um lovely. The first is when um I was asked to do my TEDx for TEDx Manchester, one of the biggest TEDxes in the UK, about 2,000 people, and I was asked with 48 hours to go um because um my name had been on a kind of a reserve list, and they were like, Can you close the whole show? Uh we'd like to talk a little bit uh about the power of singing and then close the whole event with an audience choir. Um, and what else could I say other than yes? And then I just, you know, I had time just to work out the details, you know. Um so you know, that was the kind of thing where most people, you know, would expect like a much you know bigger run-in, more time to think about it. But I actually think that that that probably was great because I didn't have too much time to think about it. And 48 hours later, I was there on that stage, you know, getting the room singing in three-part harmony to free falling by um by Tom Petty. So it was a real joy. Um, and then you know, uh I it's been a recurring theme in my career in in lots of different ways. I mean, a few years uh earlier, March 2020, um, when there was the hint of the first lockdown here in the UK, I set up something called Sober Singers, an online singing community. I I'd never used Zoom before, but people were kind of saying, James, maybe you can make something work, and I I kind of said I'd do this. And then um the BBC got in touch saying, We've heard about this great thing you're doing, can we cover it? And um, it ended up being on the six o'clock news um with for 10 million people that evening. Uh, and I and you know, and I really didn't know what I was doing at that stage, but happily stumbled upon something that really worked and and people connected with and helped people feel uh energized. Um, so that is another example, and then the third example is probably the most recent one, which was when uh the BBC again approached me um saying, Can you teach 50 football fans to sing opera? Um, and um, you know, I've got a long history of of getting people singing from kind of maybe unexpected places. Uh, football fans kind of know no problem. You know, I'm I'm no opera buff, but I was like, well, do you know what I'm a specialist in getting people singing and mobilizing people singing? I'll work out the details as we go down the line. And that ended up just being uh an amazing 12-month project that that turned into the bantam of the opera choir. And I'm so glad that I said yes to that, and I'm so glad that I said yes to all those other things that I said yes before I was ready.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, and look, and um, those are great examples, all of which um uh for a lot of people it'd be a high pressure stake, right? These are moments where you're incredibly exposed, where you you've got to be on form, you've got to deliver. It's very easy for moments to get into our heads and start going, oh, maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe this is a bit I need a bit more planning time. But actually, in each one of those, um, what has really served you is you've just dived in. And actually, one of the first leaders that we had on here was Simon Douglas from ICV. And all his advice boiled down to one really simple thing, which was just fucking do it. Because actually, if you have action and you are creating some agency in what you do, the worst that can happen are you learnt. But actually, in a lot of times, you actually create impact that you couldn't even possibly imagine. And you you have all three of those, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah, exactly. And I think it is so easy to you know to kind of put it off to say, you know, to wait for permission to start and all those kind of things. And I think, especially like today, where everything is so curated, and we can go back and edit every single post we've ever made, we can touch up our photos, all those kind of things. And and and actually the reality of this life is messy, and you just sometimes have to get your hands to it, you have to do it, you learn from it. Some things might land, some things might not land. Um, you know, and I remember listening to a podcast that it was on the high performance podcast, and I can't remember who the guest was, but they were saying every time I do an iteration of what I do, um, I just try and do something slightly different, you know, and and and and it doesn't have to be a big thing, it can be a small thing. And and I actually was thinking about that, you know, when I was doing my workshops in Dubai, I started in a different way. I I used a different approach, I used like a different icebreaker, and I was just like, I'm thinking, I'm I'm just playing with this, you know, because that's the only way we ever find stuff out, you know, and and actually it was great. And and the the the kind of little starting exercise, people were coming up to me at the break, saying oh, that was just brilliant, that was genius. Oh wow, you know, and I thought, great, if I hadn't had the courage to try that, you know, it wasn't a big thing, it wasn't gonna make or break it. Um, but you know, you can you can you know you can zoom in on that those things, but you can zoom out, you know, like saying yes to to Banc with the opera, knowing that it was going to be covered by the BBC, knowing that we were working with professional opera singers. Um, and sometimes you just kind of have to, you know, go with your gut and your intuition. Sometimes you can think your way out of things, I think, a bit as well. And I think as I again, as I've got older and I've progressed in my career, I've learned to lean into my intuition a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah, so I'd say again, a very strong point. Um, often we make our fears bigger than they actually are. You know, that's that's part of our design because it keeps us safe. It's uh gather around the design. But what what I love is that one of the ways into overcoming those voices is intuition, actually learning to listen to it, uh, which is a real skill. And you know, I think it's massively underrated in in leadership because you know, most businesses and actually most of today's society, we reward logic uh and you know thinking and data. And actually, what we don't really emphasize enough of is what you're you know, a little bit of the wizardry skills, which is tapping into our gut feel and our intuition, where actually a lot of the truth lies because that's kind of how we listen to our deeper processing. So, you know, have you got any anything that you've learned about how to listen to your intuition better over the years? Is there anything that's kind of helped you do that?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

That's that's a really great question. I mean, I suppose it, you know, when I started thinking about intuition, I kind of reflected back on some of the biggest what I now, you know, some of the biggest decisions, you know, either in my career or just in my personal life. I remember there was a point where there was a very strong pull to move away from from where I was living at the time, which was Liverpool. And I just had this feeling I just need to be here. I just feel like something's it's like that song in some West Side Story, something's something's coming, something's gonna happen, something good. And I just went with that. And and actually, like in the week after that, I got asked to join this amazing a cappella choir, which led to me joining the spooky men's chorale, which led to me doing all the work I'm doing now. You know, I think if I think back to when I met my wife, I just was like, Do you know what? I feel like this is a good evening to go out in Liverpool. It's a nice summer's evening. You know, we ended up bumping into each other in the pub. Um, yeah, that's good intuition you got there, James. That's pretty good intuition.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Um that you're doing brilliantly.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

So that's a that's kind of quite a logical way of reflecting on intuition, if that makes sense. But I think um, you know, I'd like many people, I I can I can often overthink things, overthink situations. And let's face it, we live in a a world where there is almost infinite choice with everything, you know. And I and I think you I think choice is obviously a very good thing. You know, I feel privileged that I'm in a position where I can, you know, have an element of choice and agency over my life, and I don't take that for granted. But actually, too much choice can be completely paralyzing because you never really know what the outcome is going to be anyway. Um, so actually, you know, if if if logic isn't necessarily going to be a good barometer or a good guide, then I really I just you know sometimes you just feel it in your body, you know, and I I did a I was in America last summer with one of my heroes, a guy called Jacob Collier, um, who does these amazing audience choirs, and one of the facilitators on on that um weekend, she was talking a bit to it about intuition and about you know feeling your gut, and and she was saying that when you make a decision, you know, that you've been wrestling with and and your body breathes a sigh of relief, then you know that that's your intuition speaking, and that's you know, and and I'm I'm just really trying to lean into that more and more.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Well, I think the world needs it more, and I think we need it more because actually, you know, we are designed to be intuitive, you know. Uh as gatherer hunters, we didn't we didn't make a strategy before we headed out, you know. Uh, you know, what's the resource plan? You know, went out there and we felt our way and actually did pretty good, you know, with that approach. And and so much of that I think has been lost. But but actually, the more and more I'm working with with leaders, um, especially senior leaders in these terms of ambiguity, the more it's coming back, is what I've noticed. So I I think we're gonna hear a lot more about intuition and how to tap into it. Um, great. So that's that's that's a lovely, lovely bit to get into. So the second question then is what is uh the singular most important thing in releasing genius of people? And I'm particularly interested as the choir starter.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Right. So I think maybe there's a bit of context for the choir starting work that I do. All my work is open access, everybody's invited. You know, what I'm aiming to do is write a big permission slip for whoever you are, whatever your experience has been of singing in life, and what and also I'm trying to kind of um de um demystify the group singing process, and then it's not about kind of talent or perfection, it's about participation uh and it's about the process. So the number, you know, the the starting point for that for me, particularly when working with a group for the first time, is just to build trust, is to connect on a human level, and for them to feel like they trust me. Because actually, when I'm asking people to sing, it's much more than just opening your mouth. You you know, your voice is you know, it's the most individual one of the most individual things that we have. When you're singing in a group of people, you know, you you're making yourself feel vulnerable because you you're putting your voice out there, you know, literally. Um and I realize that other than kind of public speaking, singing in public is one of the things that that people fear the most. And often the context that I'm leading singing um is you know, when I'm working with companies, maybe as an energizer or as something to close the day or whatever, it's not people who signed up for it. You know, when I started my career in music education, it was people who decided they they'd already decided they wanted to come and learn or sing in a choir. Whereas now there's a big difference. There's a massive difference, yeah. And and so, and so the the absolute foundation or of any work that I do, particularly with with groups, you know, who haven't come specifically to sing, is just to build trust and for me to try and understand where they're coming from and meet them where they are, you know, where they are in terms of energy, you know. So it's really helpful to know what else has been going on during the day. So, you know, where's their energy at? Um, what's what are their musical experiences, but also to frame the experience, thinking about like who's this for and what's it for as well. So being really intentional going into it. And I think when when you've got all of those things, um, I think that can really help build trust with the group because they want to feel like I know where they are and that I understand and that I kind of understand them.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah, I know it's it's absolutely vital, and I love this trust thing. Um, and by the way, when you say uh there's something about singing that's very exposing, so we had this conversation some years ago. You know, I speak on stage, thousands of people, absolutely fine. Me in a guitar and an open mic, or actually, I you you got me to join the sofa singers, which was fantastic, singing one of my own songs, way more petrified about that because there is something very exposing it's about saying, here I am. Yeah, so so I think I think when you get the trust happening, I think there's something quite artful going on. Because I know what you do is there's a smart approach around logic. This isn't about performance, you don't have to be perfect, everyone's got a voice, don't worry about the past. I know you do all that stuff really well, but what I I am a particular fan of is the energy that you bring in. Okay, right, where you hold a space and you make it okay for everyone to be whoever they are, whatever mess they're in, whatever state they're in. Everybody's welcome. Yeah. And that that is quite an artful energetic approach. Is that something you just learnt over time how to do that? Or you know, are there any shortcuts?

SPEAKER_01 14:56

I think I think I've always been quite true to kind of myself in terms of the way that I would want the sessions to be led if I was there, because I'm I'm not a particularly a fan of enforced fun or organized fun. And there is a version of what I do, and I have seen it done, where it's like, hey everybody, we're gonna sing some harm, you know, and and I would be out the door, I would be out of gone already. And so I've come to realise that my approach is is kind of invitational, is quite gentle, it's quite playful, but also quite assertive. And so what I kind of aim to do is to kind of just bring people in in quite a gentle way, and then just bring them along with me. And I think the more work that I've done outside of the musical sphere, you know, so my early part of the career was in schools with community choirs. Um but the more work that I've done with businesses, with organizations, the more I've kind of had that reflected back at me. And I think that's been really, really useful. So it's probably, you know, the first instance of this was at the do lectures when I did my talk, which is where you I think you spoke for years before. Um I think I think it was 2018 I did mine. And and again, this is a group of people not expecting to you know be singing. Um and so but then to have that reflected back at me from that group of people was just really interesting, and and I really love it when there's other facilitators in the audience because I really think deeply about all this stuff and about my approach, and it, you know, I I look to stand-up comedians a lot, not not because I not because I want to try and be funny, um, although I do think humour and and lightness and playfulness is important, but just the way that stand-up comedians hold the space, maybe call things out that need calling out, that they're flexible, that they obviously come with their material, but are prepared to be flexible with it and play with it. And I I I really kind of identify with that.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yeah. Well, me too. I I mean, I I once when I did my TED, I was coached by a friend of mine, um, Andy Parsons, who's a comedian, and um my god, his art form around how you take um an audience where you want them to go is extraordinary. I mean, I you know, most comedians I know are incredibly smart and they've got this amazing presence. And it was way too clever for me to deliver in the end, funnily enough. But but but actually, there's something I really admire. But your but your point um about you create trust by um making it invitational, you're not pushing anyone, you but you're very authentic to who you are, you do it in your design because yeah, you're not all high energy, because it would be inappropriate. Um having that kind of invitational is is important. But what I like is you you do it with some strength. So you've got this lovely soft energy, but actually you don't let people off the hook. You hold that space with some very deliberate intention, I would say. Yeah. And I and it's very appropriate to who you are, is what I'm coming back to. I I think it's so many leaders don't really know who they are, they don't know what style works best for them. And you've obviously just you've just done it 10,000 hours, you've been out there, you've got a good sense of what works. I bet you've got it wrong a few times, James.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, and I think I think the times when I've got it wrong is the times where I thought I should be doing it in a certain way, you know, and I and I wasn't I wasn't true to myself either in you know, musically or just just generally as well. And so it's been, you know, as always, it's a journey of discovery, it's a journey of you know, working towards, moving towards yourself, the the best iteration of yourself. But the interesting thing is the more I've kind of kind of niche down, I suppose, you know, if I think, you know, I started off as a music educationalist, you know, teaching all types of music, you know, different age groups, blah, blah, blah. The more I've specialized, you know, specialized in singing, and then particularly in inclusive singing, and then now thinking about singing to create connection and belonging, the more I kind of niche down the the better job I feel that I'm able to do. Um and and and and again, that may well be quite a that might be a kind of quite a common thing. Um, and and so you know, it continues to be interesting because there are so many different iterations of the work that I do, like different groups and different contexts, obviously different songs, but all with with this kind of same invitational, trust-based, playful, yet assured approach, I think is is yeah, that that's the way you've reflected it back at me. And I think that's probably a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah, no, I really like it. It's a style, it's a style that works incredibly well because it feels very welcoming, but it feels held. Um, but it's but you know, you've got it because you've practiced and you've got feedback and you know what works and what doesn't through it. And and I think a lot of leaders, you know, they they've really learnt their craft through experimentation, through trying stuff out. It's not about logic, it's not about books, it's not like copying people, it's about just trying it and learning. Did that work? Did that get that group to the place I would love them to be, where they're having a good time of being themselves, or you know, is is there a better way? Is there a better way? So, you know, it's it's a game of iteration. So look, that brings me on to uh final big question. So, James, you seem like quite a hopeful person, but what gives you hope?

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah, I mean, uh I I I suppose I am naturally quite a hopeful person. Um I really like that quote, I think is Isaac Newton that every action is an equal and opposite reaction. Because what what we're seeing a lot of in the world, and you don't need me to tell you that, you know, there's a lot of division, there's a lot of um uh atomization, um, there's a lot of you know, scary shit, basically. Um and I just think that there are so many people who are seeing that and who are just reacting in the opposite way, you know. So for for for all people are becoming more isolated and and and lonelier, there are people who are just absolutely hell-bent on creating amazing opportunities for people to connect, or talking about it, or writing about it. Um, you know, people like Priya Parker, who writes so beautifully about the art of gathering and is so committed to bringing people face to face, or people like Jacob Collier, who I mentioned earlier, who just has this amazing way of connecting audiences with his audience choirs and inviting people into that experience. And I think you know, so much of the time, you know, uh what gives you hope is it are the things that you choose to focus on, where you choose to focus your energy and choose to focus your attention. And you know, there's another great quote from Mary Oliver, you know, who said the um attention is the beginning of devotion. Um, and I and I think you know, it's just something you know I I I know I certainly always have to work out is where is my attention going? Because there are you know, there is so much hope, and and and you know, I've I've spoken about you know some quite big public figures there, but but also when I'm Running my singing sessions, you know, just seeing people coming together, seeing their guards come down, seeing them relax, seeing them maybe tap into a part of themselves that they'd forgotten about that genuinely makes me hopeful as well. You know, so if if I've done my job properly, I like to come away from a session or a workshop feeling more hopeful myself. And nine times out of ten, that you know, that is the case.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh it's always lovely to hear. I and that that phrase, you know, it's what you pay attention to that that dictates your hope. I I couldn't agree more. And it's so easy to be distracted right now. In the world in which we live, there is so much crazy. I've never seen craziness like this. I don't think anyone has. And of course, it's plumbed into our phones 24-7. So it's very easy, I think, to to actually have quite a negative viewpoint of society, humanity, where the planet's going. But as you say, interestingly, there is a there's an equal and opposite force to that, which is bringing more goodness. And I'm seeing that too. I'm seeing people, you know, double down on community, on connection, on on family, on whatever love is for them. I'm seeing people put a lot more effort in. I'm seeing companies be a lot more deliberate about not just talking about balance sheets, but talking about how they can help people live lives, you know. So I think there is a lot there as long as you spot it.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's almost like, you know, you go so far with one thing, and then it's almost like, well, we're gonna go so far the other way. And so I'm not saying these things start to balance themselves out, but you know, obviously everyone's talking about AI at the moment. I also think as as important as that is and as useful as that is, I think there's all equally a you know a significant amount of people who really want to start talking about well, what are the things that are fundamentally human? And I think this is where singing also comes into it. Like, what are the things that we've done as a species for tens, hundreds of thousands of years, you know, whether it be nature connection, you know, moving our body, um, whether it be connecting with other people, being part of something bigger than ourselves, singing, dancing, doing synchronous things, you know, uh through to the way that we eat, you know, there are so many ways that we live um in the 21st century that are really out of balance with what our true nature is as humans. But I kind of think that the further we go with with with AI and with technology, the more that people are kind of realizing that. And I think you know, that gives me hope too.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

That does give me hope. I was just I'm just reading a brilliant book, um, which I cannot stop talking about, which Jeremy King's book, Without Reservation. Uh, he's the guy behind you know the Ivy Caprice, all these great restaurants in London. And he's talking to all these staff and he he's saying, Look, I could get I could get robots in with AI to do all of your jobs. Really, really easy. I you know, it'd save me money, they'd be much more efficient, they do a better job on bookings, blah, blah, blah. But I'm not doing it. And why? Because they can't love people.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It comes, it comes down to human human connection. And um, yeah, that sounds like a good companion to unreasonable hospitality, which I'm sure you've read as well.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. They would go very well together. Yeah, yeah, I like them completely. Yeah. Well, look, and it's fantastic having you on, James. Uh, what is coming up that's exciting for you?

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Well, there's a few irons in the fire uh following on from Bantam of the Opera. So the choir continues to sing, even though the BBC involvement has ended, but there's a few potential things coming up with the BBC, which is really exciting, which may well um yeah, help me cast the net of singing even further. We're coming up to our sixth birthday with the Sophie Singers community, started in lockdown, haven't stopped since. So that's really amazing. More people continue to join that community. Yeah, and there's um a number of new companies on board um who I'm gonna be working with, and um, yeah, I'm just I'm I'm just continuing to follow my curiosity. Um, you know, I'm really interested in kind of belonging and connection and and perhaps writing my second book around that. Um but just yeah, I'm just you know leaning into my intuition really and kind of just trusting, you know, I've been freelancing now for 10 years, and I haven't got you know the whole of the rest of the year mapped out by any means, but I'm just kind of you know trusting trusting in the process and trusting in myself and keeping the door open to what comes next.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Well, that's what we've got, you know. Um, we we can only hope that our energy carries us through if we choose that intuition, we share a bit more love out there. I'm sure it worked beautifully for you. I'm a huge fan, James, as you know. Um, if anyone's interested in getting into his world, a very simple way into the sofa singers, check it out. I joined the community and and had the most fantastic time. They're very warm, very welcoming, and it's it's a chance to get your voice out there. So that's an easy one. But otherwise, you will see him around because James is uh he you know, he's just gonna get bigger and he's gonna touch more lives. There's no doubt about it. We need more choir starters in our lives. So, James Stills, thank you so much for joining us. Good luck with the next adventures. Cheers, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Likewise, maybe this is the year we get to do something together. It's uh it feels like an opportunity just ready to happen. So watch this place.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

I would have loved that. I would have loved that, but you're playing it till um, I'm ropey on stage. Take care, bud. Cheers, Chris.