Conversations with Candidates: Rebecca Mueller (D), Primary Candidate Oregon CD-2

In this episode of Nobody's Side, I speak with Rebecca Mueller. Rebecca is a Democratic candidate for Oregon's second congressional district. She's a pediatrician and a first time candidate for office. I speak with her about our divisions, challenges, and how she would go about building trust across the aisle. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

My name is David Combs, and this is Nobody's Side. In this episode of my Conversations with Candidate series, I interview Rebecca Mueller. Rebecca is a pediatrician and she's running for Congress out of Oregon 2nd District. Oregon 2nd District is one of the largest in the nation by landmass. Rebecca has a lot to say about the divisions that we face as a nation and how we might land in a better place. Can you just introduce yourself? Can you give folks your name, where you're running, the office you're seeking?

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Yep. So my name is Rebecca Mueller, and I am running for Congressional District 2 here in the state of Oregon, which is a district that's 70% of the size of Oregon. It has uh 70,000 square miles. It has 700,000 people in it. And currently it's the third largest district that's not a full state in the country.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

That is yeah, I've seen the map. And yeah, and looking at I I looked at that map a couple of times and I thought to drive across that, what is it? Like an eight-hour drive to get across the thing, like top to bottom.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yes, yeah. So if I go to the furthest reaches, which is from here in Medford out to Wallawa County, um, it's about an eight-hour drive.

unknown 1:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

That is quite a large district. Um, okay, so can we so you're running your campaign? Can we back up a little bit? And can you tell me a little bit about the moment where you decide I'm I'm running for office, I'm doing this? Because I would imagine that a lot of people out there think to themselves, you know, I'm gonna do that. I'm I might run for office someday. But of course, most of them do not. You did. You decided, I'm doing it, I'm doing the paperwork, and as a first-time candidate, you decided you were gonna do this. You tell me about the moment. Did you know you were gonna do it? I think you've been brushing with forever. How did this happen?

SPEAKER_02 1:52

So it's really a two-step story. Um, I grew up in Iowa. Iowa, as you may be aware, is home to the first in the nation caucuses, has has been for all of my life. And um, that means we see politicians for, you know, a year and a half before the general election starts. And we constantly are hearing their speeches and um, you know, on both sides. We hear all the first Republicans, all the first Democrats. So um that kind of let lay the framework of me thinking, um, you know, there's a power in voicing the concerns of the people. At the same time, though, in my early adulthood, I started to notice that the speeches, election cycle after election cycle, sounded the same. And in the meantime, meaning that we weren't getting anything done every every four years, presidential hopefuls would be talking about the same problems that the last group were talking about. Um, and in the meantime, I was a physician in rural Iowa, and I chose that career path because I want to help people. Um, and it's really uh an easy thing to see when you're talking to folks who um, you know, don't know what to do for child care, don't know how they're going to afford the second child that they're now pregnant with, don't know how they're going to handle it because grandma has to go back to work because she doesn't have enough in her pension funds, or the pension fund got rated or whatever. Um, and now they don't have child care. And what are we going to do? And so really quickly it became obvious that as much as I wanted to help people within my clinic, um, a lot of the biggest issues that we're facing that were day and night issues were issues that I could not affect within my clinic room. And so um also because of how down home the um political processes in Iowa, I got to see some of our local Congress folks, um talk to them, and it made me start having an idea that maybe I could do that. Um fast forward, I moved to Oregon and at the time didn't think, oh, that's gonna be, you know, a big barrier. Um because of course, when you go to rural health issue, you know, areas, the issues are the same. Um the struggles that people have are the same. Um certainly my patients here are hard workers. They're they're doing all the things that they're supposed to be doing to get ahead, and yet they're getting behind and not ahead. So all the problems were the same. The thing that was different uh was that when I looked at a map, I was like, holy buckets, this is a huge congressional district, and they have not elected a Democrat here since 1980. Um, and so I had to recalibrate and think, is Congress where it makes sense for me to run? Maybe it makes sense for me to run in a state position, maybe it makes sense for me to run in a county position. And I and I looked at those a little bit. Um and I was kind of in the process of kind of drafting a plan. And then this um administration came back into power. And I have to say in 2016, when when Trump was named the nominee, I had some visions of some pretty terrible things that could happen in our country. And as difficult as some of the situations were from 2016 to 2020, um, they were not my worst fears. But it was very quick to see that a lot of those things that I had feared in 2016 were definitely par for the course in 2024, 2025. And that this Trump 2.0 was a bigger buffer, more severe, more impulsive leader. And I thought it still feels pretty impossible, but if ever there was going to be some seeds of change or wind of change, this might be the time. And it is definitely the time when folks in rural Oregon are feeling, you know, these cataclysmic impacts of tariffs that are making trade of commodities harder. They're feeling the, you know, they're about to feel the loss of Medicaid. They're already feeling the loss of the ACA subsidies, they're already feeling, you know, continued hammering on the economy. And so this is the time. So I talked to my husband and my kids. Um, I had also thought I would wait to run until my kids were out of the house. Um, I still have two kids at home. Um, but they were all for it. So here I am and running. And I will tell you that the day I decided to run in that first week, I felt more energy, optimism, clarity than I have in a long time. And that was just a real testament to the fact that, yep, this is where I need to be. This is where it's at.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Can you tell me? And actually, so for those folks who again will never do this but are interested in knowing how what this is, the experience is like for you. Can you talk me through some of the things that maybe have surprised you about running or um something about the process field folks don't anticipate? Or I mean, if this this is a this is a new line of effort for you. What what on earth is this actually like?

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Yeah. So um one thing that's interesting is the fact that as a physician, I've been really big on uh guarding my social media use. One, because I almost never had free time. And so I didn't want to get sucked into this time sink of social media. And so I really wasn't on it for eight years, even when I was on it. I had this very curated list of folks. And suddenly you're supposed to be using all your social contacts. And I'm like, what social contacts? Um, and those social contacts are you're supposed to be your kitchen cabinet that are advising you. They're supposed to be your early donors. Um, I haven't, you know, as a physician, it's actually really hard to just put yourself out there in the community because you get a lot of folks just asking for off-the-cuff medical advice. And so most people don't have big public profiles. And so suddenly my lack of a public profile, I'm not on LinkedIn, um, is definitely kind of hurting the ability to scale up quickly. Um, so I had no idea that my lack of social media use was going to be a barrier uh for that quick upscaling. Um so just for people that might want to run in the future. Um on the other hand, though, um, you know, as a as a physician, so much of my time is spent in the hospital, um, which is also not really a politically correct place to bring your political views. And so um I haven't had a lot of opportunity to, you know, rub shoulders with people and be like, hey, I'm running for office. You want to help me out? Um, but people that I have been able to contact in the community have just jumped on board. Um I honestly have the best campaign team. Um, there are six of us running in our primary, and there's some other people that are financially backed and have bigger Facebook followings, but I have a team that is working hard despite for full-time jobs and despite families of their own to just try and help me get a go of this. So I may not have the numbers of friends, but the the sacrificial giving of my friends has been pretty astounding. Um, and it's also been really encouraging because I do have days where I'm like, what am I doing? Am I really doing this? Why am I doing this? Um, and they've got my back and tell me to have confidence and keep pushing forward. And so that's great.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

I have heard in discussions with other candidates, as I've interviewed them, and then just in off-the-cuff discussions with folks who have either run for office previously or are are also doing so now. Um I I have heard that one thing that seems to hit everyone when they first do this is the notion of fundraising. How is that like going as an emotional thing, as a as a physical thing? What is that?

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yes. Um, notice I didn't even bring it up on my list of challenges because I um have such a um uh love-hate relationship, hate-hate relationship with fundraising. I mean, you need the funds, but the raising part. Um so yes, uh, they tell you, um, I mean, I've heard some candidates say they need to spend four hours a night making phone calls to fundraise. Um, I've heard some people say, oh, it's not that much, but it seems to me that the folks that are doing it successfully, that four hours is the time that they're giving it. And I am not giving it that time. Um and yeah, to be honest, like I said, my list of contacts is few. So I don't I don't have four hours worth of people to call, let alone um night after night. But yeah, it's formidable. Um and yeah, I'd rather just get out there and get the message out. And if people want to give, that's great. And there's certainly opportunities for them to get on my web page and contribute. Um but in this environment, as I'm sure you're aware, people are tired of being asked for a check. They want people that actually care about what's going on in their lives, they want folks that actually have some insight to how hard it is. Um and so that's what I'm focusing on is just connecting to voters and hoping that that does bring some um some energy and some opportunities to spread the message, even if they aren't giving me dollars.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Um, okay, last one in this sort of uh background space. Can you tell me something about your district or your community that people sort of like I would imagine so though though this is one of the biggest districts in the country, I don't imagine it's a district that folks sort of, you know, across the broader United States know a whole lot about. Is there something that makes it special you could uh speak to?

SPEAKER_02 12:19

The biggest thing is that most people think of Oregon as a big blue state. Um, and Oregon actually, just like lots of states, um, has some areas that are much more mixed politically. Um, in southern Oregon specifically, um, we have a lot of folks that kind of run more libertarian. Um, and we have huge rural areas. Um, and then the entire eastern part of the state tends to run uh very, very red. Um, and the communities are much more far and widespread out. Um, so a lot of rustic and outdoor beauty, a lot of places where there's you know fewer than uh one person per 10 square miles, um, just really remote areas that are beautiful. Um, Southern Oregon here is known, or historically was known for orchards, especially pear orchards. It's the birthplace of Harry and David. Um, so that's kind of our local claim to fame, but really beautiful, um, but not as blue as you think. So yeah, that's the district. I to put it specifically, usually the Democratic candidate in this race gets about 30 to 35 percent of the vote, and the Republican gets um around 63 to 65 percent of the vote. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Okay, so moving on a little bit in terms of subject matter. Yeah, everyone has some values, right? The the things that are sort of most core to who they are. I have mine, you have yours. Um, can you tell me a little bit about maybe the two or three values that matter the most to you and where they came from?

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Yeah. So really easy off the bat, um, human dignity and mutual respect. And um, I think it's pretty beautiful. I I grew up Christian conservative and I'm still very dedicated to the Christian faith. And I love that um in the creation story, one of the very first thing um God does is speak value over mankind um and declare mankind is valuable, so valuable in fact that we are supposed to be an ambassador or an image bearer of God on the earth. And right away that tells us automatically that humans have value because we're designed, um, designed after God. And so um even as a you know, a constitutional republic, in the very you know, early founding documents, there is this layout of you know, men or humankind has um inherent right and dignity. Um, and I love that whether you're religious or not, you can still um look at those founding documents and say, yeah, every person under the constitution, under our law, should be at the very beginning, um, you know, recog their dignity should be recognized and it should be valued. Um, so that's one. The other is mutual respect. And mutual respect just goes hand in hand with dignity, right? If we all are equals, then everyone should have an opportunity for their voice, their experience, their perspective to be heard. Um, and you can't be heard if you aren't given that respect, that space. Um, and to just dovetail that into a topic that I know is near and dear to your heart, um, for me, the mutual respect really goes to getting away from the hyperpartisan politics of our country. Um, and so I've had this really unique experience of living and working in a place where people don't always agree with me. People don't have the same views on vaccines, they don't have the same views on um human sexuality and the rights of parents and the rights of children. Um, you know, there's a lot of things that can be debated. Um, and none of that goes well if we don't start out with um mutual respect. Um, and that's really something that I've honed skills um in in my work here. And it's something that really, I think, prepares me to run a race that says, even if you fundamentally disagree with me, I'm gonna enter into the conversation, I'm gonna enter into the room, acknowledging that you have values and perspectives that are guiding where you're landing on these positions, and that that is worthy of respect. And I accept this, I expect the same thing for me. Um, but as opposed to coming into the room and saying, mine is the only viewpoint that matters, my values are the only viewpoint that matters. In fact, they're so big that they are filling up this space, and none of you have any room to even air your concerns or your perspective. Um, I think that's where we've gotten into a lot of trouble in this country when we don't allow for the room of different perspectives.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

So, in terms of your actual campaigning, speaking of that, how are you finding that it goes when you're out shaking hands with voters or making phone calls or whatever? I would imagine that it must be that there are moments where someone says, Hey, I I either tell me something and then they disagree with you. Um, do you find how do you find those discussions with potential voters or donors or whoever it might be when they really don't agree with you?

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Yeah, so right now we're in primary season. Um, and so right now I'm talking to Democrats, but honestly, um I have just as much concern about the lack of space for agreements within the party as we I do between the parties. Um, for example, there's you know, democratic priorities. And the democratic priorities are, you know, to get ICE out of our communities, to impeach Donald Trump, to make sure that every policy that he's done is overturned. Um, you know, there's other folks with really big opinions on they don't want a single living tree to be cut down, they don't want a single drop of natural gas to come out of the ground. Um, there's a lot of very um, I only mean extreme, not because they're radical, but extreme in terms of a very black and white, this is okay and this is not okay type of thinking. And so when I've gone door to door and I've talked to people and said, hey, um, this is the map of our district. This is what it looks like. This is what the voting record is. So the first thing that that means is that, you know, if we just send another standard Democratic candidate, then we're gonna get no more than the standard 35% vote. Um The other thing we can do instead is focus on the values that unify people across parties, which means that they may not be the top priorities for the standard Democrats, but they are still priorities for Democrats and also can merge some priorities for folks that aren't aligned with one party or another. And so for me, that means focusing on working, um working family good wages, good access to buying power and affordability. So all of that. Also healthcare. And then my last thing is kind of a bringing together point, but it's the idea that we need to be focusing on rural issues and we need to be focusing on them with a mind dedicated to problem solving and pragmatic steps. Um, so that's kind of a an an all, you know, a large gathering point there. But if we do that, if we prioritize the common ground items, then we we also end up doing the second part, which I think is also really important, is that we have a representative that truly represents the district. So we can either have a strongly democratic nominee or we can nominate someone that cares the most about what the residents prioritize instead of just what part of them do. Um and I think that's more democratic for us to do that.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

How do you feel like um how people respond to that? Yeah, because you you you you you are essentially suggesting to, you know, folks who who have a strong sense of, let's say, progressive values in this particular case, and and you are essentially saying, hey, I uh if I read you properly, what I hear you saying is Okay, I get it. I understand that this is sort of the way that the party feels about it, but in order to win, there's probably some some areas where we can we can compromise or we can be a little more nuanced, and I can imagine that for some that would probably land well, and for others, it may well seem that you're being a bit of a traitor to some cause that they care about. How do how do folks respond to that?

SPEAKER_02 21:23

So there are some folks that just want to keep coming at me with but we need to abolish ice, but we need to abolish ice. Our message needs to be abolish iced. And I, you know, I really agree that ICE is terrible and that we should not be funding it. And I think there can be a difference on the topics that you can take a stand on versus the topics that you prioritize. And so, as a Democrat, when I am voting in Congress, I'm going to vote Democrat values. So I am not going to vote to fund ICE, for example. Um, if anything that would be funded would have to be very, very slim duties and responsibilities. It would have to be, you know, with training and all of those things. They should not be in Minneapolis if they're going to be at the border, fine, you know, just really trimming back and redefining um what their role is. So um, but I can have that stance on a vote without, as a congress person, making it my first priority. Similarly, if someone wants to um spend a lot of time and energy deciding to draft a bill of impeachment for President Trump, um, I see him having impeachable offenses and his, you know, carrying out the um responsibilities of the executive. However, as a representative from this district, I am not going to be putting my attentions and energies towards actually drafting up those bills. I'm going to be putting my attention and energies into working class wages, into getting rid of monopolies that are devastating our agricultural economies, into rural education and rural hospitals that need to be viewed as a public good, as a social contract with rural America. So those are the policies that I'm going to put my attention to. And that way I can be true to my party, right? I'm still going to vote the way that my conscience and my democratic values are going to take me to vote. But in terms of the things I'm going to be really expending my energy, my expertise, and all of that, it's going to be on the bills and on the movement that my represent that my district really needs from their representative. So long-winded answer. I think I only have those. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Well, for someone who's trying to run a podcast, those are often the fun answers. Um like I say, the the point of a lot of this is um to get to know people who are running for office in a serious way. And I I this is perhaps um well I don't love the 30-second sound bite way of getting to know people. And I know that is sort of the TikTok, Instagram, you know, whatever world we live in. Yeah, but I think it's it's sort of the heart of people, whether I, you know, agree with them, whether I don't, I'm talking to people all across the country. So there are moments where I agree and I disagree personally. Sort of irrelevant. My my goal is to hear from people and to hear from from you or the folks in state XYZ. And and so if you do have a longer answer, that's great, because that's that's I think the more human answer than than just some polished 30-second soundbite. Anyway, uh that's me digressing.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Um, so as you know, no, I think we could actually have a conversation about the 38-second soundbite and how that feeds into a hyperpartisan focus, because the faster you can answer a question, the more you are denying that there's nuance. And the more that we deny that there's nuance, the more we can just say, this is this part's always right, this part's always wrong. And the fact of the matter is, most uh most things, the right and the wrong, even even if they're black and white, there's still nuance to arriving to them. It's you know, where do you make the cutoff so that it is black and white? Um, and so when we when we force ourselves to make these, you know, 10-second videos, um it oversimplifies the thinking. And that goes towards an audience that's looking for that. But um, you know, in this era of disinformation and misinformation, I would encourage people to go beyond the 10-second soundbite so that they can actually maybe arrive at the truth.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

So, uh as you know, this show is primarily about the divisions in our nation and sort of where we are, and like, are we too far gone? Are we gonna be okay? Um so there's no surprise, um, I'm sure there's no surprise to you that you know, it it when you read surveys, when you read, you know, news articles, uh, endless commentary on the idea that um our nation is a divided place. And so there's this sense that, you know, people on the other side are terrible. My side, of course, is great. Um, I'm I'm sure you've but even before you're running, you saw plenty of this. I'm sure you see even more of it perhaps now. So I'll ask you this in terms of your observation, what do you make of this? Is the United States public is it as divided as it seems or it appears in the commentary? Or do you think that, you know, maybe that's a little bit overblown. The the the average, you know, American person is not, you know, thinking of things that way, and they actually do want to try and get things done. Like what do you make of all this sort of commentary and perspective on these divisions?

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah, I think there's a vocal minority that, you know, flood the feeds, flood the social media rails um with their with their 10 second sound bites. And so when they do that, it's really easy to paint this picture that we're so strongly divided. Um and I do think that a lot of times we think we're more divided than we are. And if we take a second to catch a breath and take a second to actually think about others' perspectives, to put ourselves through those kind of abstract exercises, to think of someone we know. Um, there's a lot of you know insight out there as soon as you know someone that is going through the issue, whether it's you know, someone that's been wrongfully deported by ICE, whether it's someone that's going through a medical scare because of a provider unwilling to provide an abortion when it's clearly medically indicated. Um, you know, as soon as you know someone, it suddenly crystallizes um a new perspective. And so when people are willing to do that and take a moment, I think we have a lot of opportunities to bridge that gap, to bridge that divide. Um and the fact of the matter is that division is a really great tool of people in power to keep their power. And so if they can help us to believe the worst things about each other, if they, you know, can make us think that all Democrats think Republicans are bigots and all Republicans think Democrats are evil, um, the more that we can have those messages flying back and forth, the more the folks that are up the food chain, um, taking in all the money get to just keep doing that and the less they're held accountable. So do I think it's too far gone? I don't. Um I think we have a lot of opportunities to pause and to reconsider our perspective. Um I think we're right at that precipice, though. Either, either we're going to in these midterms um take that pause, look around us, see where we're going, reevaluate if that's really where we want to go, and then say, actually, no, that's really ugly. I don't want to go there. Or we're gonna go over the edge. And I do think that this is, you know, either these midterms and certainly between here and 2028, um it's kind of our last chance to have free and fair elections um and to really look around us and take it in when we still have a power to make a difference.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

So your your take being sort of America peers over the abyss. Yes. In this in this moment. Yep. Um so we've talked a little bit about the nature of the division, and you were sort of hinting at it, but I'm gonna ask a little bit more directly in this next question. Um in your thinking, what are the main drivers where where there is division, where it occurs? What is driving that? This could be a lot of things, and that could be that could be very wide. It could be some people chalk it up to the media, some people chalk it up to identity, some people chalk it up to rich and poor. There's all kinds of things. From your perspective, where there is division, what are the primary drivers of it?

SPEAKER_02 30:45

So I think at this baseline, you have income inequality, and I don't think income inequality is driving the division. I think income inequality is driving the social unrest. And that the outlets of that social unrest are the blame anyone we can, right? Blame someone so that I is so that something can change. And so the identity politics largely comes out of, I don't have enough. Someone else must be taking mine. And the people at the top say it's all of you. The people at the top say it's immigrants, or it's, you know, or it's the Democrats that are that are taking all of your taxes, and that's what's driving you poor, or um, you know, it's it's the foreign wars. Now, granted, there's there's a lot of worthwhile points in there, but in reality, income inequality is not because of immigrants or you know, different minority groups. Um, they also point to um the lack of character in our country. And so it creates these character wars or culture wars of, you know, the reason we're struggling as a nation is because we don't have religious focus and fervor. Um, and so trying to bring that back up to the force. So I think all of these um these arguments, whether it's hyperpartisan between the parties or whether it's the identity politics or anti-immigration stances or these culture wars are all kind of smoke and mirrors that the powered moneyed class is using uh to distract us and to give us an opportunity to blame each other when um we're feeling so much unrest rather than blaming the folks that are truly responsible.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

You just said something interesting, and I'm going to pivot just like I say, these conversations have a life of their own. Yeah. Um, and so I'm gonna ask you a question about something I saw today. So you are the first person who for whom I'm asking this question because I saw this a couple of hours ago.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Great. I've barely seen anything today, so this will be fresh for me.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yeah, so here we go. Um uh so I've got this this chart up here from the Pew Research Center. Um they asked people around the world, I'm looking at it, it looks like about 25 different countries. I'm sorry you can't see that.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Uh-huh. That's okay. I'm gonna I'll see if I can just pull it up real quick.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

So about 25 countries.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

They asked people in all these countries, hey, can you rate the morality and ethics of other people in your country, your your country, um, your your brothers and sisters in your nation? Uh-huh. Out of the, let's, as I glance at, let's say 20 or 25 nations, only one nation rated the majority of their fellow citizens as more bad than good.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

That was us.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yes. So I love this because um one of my in the middle of the night talking points, meaning something that I told myself a long time ago, as I have all these thoughts in my head, was how can you be a patriot when you don't believe in your fellow countrymen? What is patriotism if it fills us with so much doubt and loathing of our fellow countrymen? Like, what does it mean? And part of that question is born out of this um kind of narrative that the Republicans are pushing, uh, that Democrats aren't patriots, right? That we don't, we don't love our country, we don't believe in our country. And I I knew fundamentally, like, that's not true. That's a really disgusting narrative. Um and so thinking about, you know, okay, so a lot of Democrats have a little bit of shame about what our country has done in the past, does that mean we're not patriots? Or America, our Democrats don't always think that our country is the best at everything because we're struggling with healthcare, we're struggling with scientific discovery and education, a lot of other things. Um and so what is it that makes me a patriot? Um, and I came to the conclusion that what makes me a patriot is that I love where the American story has brought us in terms of the richness, diversity, opportunity, um, and where those things have brought us in some of our golden moments. And so we kind of have our had our golden moment of um economic opportunity that was more egalitarian in the past, but right now we're in a golden age of you know diversity of opinions and diversity of um our understanding of our fellows around us. And I noticed that a lot of folks that claim to be patriots did not want, they wanted to have a very narrow definition of who their countrymen were. And I think this pew poll goes right into that. You know, we we we think the only people that are moral people, we have such an absolutist, pure, you know, purity, purity test definition of what morality is. And that means that we can assign immoral status to folks that disagree with us. Um, and we do that so easily. And I I don't think that's a virtue of the United States. The fact that we give you know purity tests that you have to believe how I do, you have to follow a religion that I follow. You have to have the same values exactly that I have in order for me to feel that your morality is sound. Um and I think I think there's been a lot of doubt, right? There's a lot of folks, even on the Democrat side, that if you voted for Trump, they just assume you must be a bigot if you voted for Trump. And that's a judgment call that I think is also ugly. Um, and that we need to examine ourselves, like what kind of judgments are we taking one decision in someone's life and assigning whether they have their morals set up in the right way. Interesting. I'll look at this poor mole pull more. I think it's um it's an interesting thing to consider.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

It yeah, I like I said it came through my feed today, and I was just staring at it for a while, thinking, like, I just us, we're the only nation of this circle. That's I mean, like, what is that's that's worth a that's probably worth a whole episode unto itself.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

I just want to call it because I just took like even as I was talking, I was like, I know that people on the Christian right are gonna say that the reason we don't have that is because we don't have cohesiveness, right? Like we don't have a cohesive identity, and therefore, of course, we're gonna question uh the morals of others because we don't have a unifying faith and we don't have a unifying culture and you know, all this stuff. You could see that someone might take that argument. But I just want to highlight that the the country that's the best on this scale, the country that has the most internalized trust is Canada.

unknown 38:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah, 92%.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

They have very similar cultural diversity, especially lately. You know, they've had floods of immigrants from really different um faiths and countries, and folks that have never been in the cold of winter before. And yet they can bring them in and have this incredible internal trust and cohesion. And so certainly it's not intrinsic to how um, you know, monoculture the country is.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

So I think I'm gonna have to go through this a bit more because it's just an interesting survey finally. I've got I've got to keep on reading that one. Um okay. So in this space of the difficulties, the divisions, the sense that someone's bad, someone's good, whatever it might be. Um from where you sit, what makes it really hard for people just to listen to someone from the other side?

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Um fear is the biggest thing, right? Sometimes it's a fear that the other person is going to tempt you to change your thoughts. And I think also there's this fear of judgment that if you don't agree with me, it's because you think that my logic is not sound or that my values aren't aligned. Um and so I think there's a just a lot of fear that you're either going to be co-opted or that you're already being misjudged.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

In this in this space, in my observation, there's this tendency. Certainly in our nation, when there's when there's that disagreement, when there's that moment of difficulty of listening to one another. Right now, and probably probably throughout our history, but really it feels especially amplified now. There's this sense of, oh, you don't agree with me? I'm going to insult you. I'm coming after you, I'm calling you out. And we see this across the political spectrum. I think everybody does this. There's this, especially on social media, which is whatever this thing is. Um, I know it's funny, 15 years ago you could believe social media was going to be a good thing for the world. And goodness how naive are we. Um but there's this tendency to rip in to one another. And my question is this, and I I I have purpose to it.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

When someone's being ripped into, someone's being called out, someone is you know, being insulted online or in person, what do you suppose are the effects on the person who is being insulted, called out, whatever it might be?

SPEAKER_02 40:59

I mean just like any time that we feel attacked, uh, you know, your your tendency is fight or flight, first of all. So you either retreat. Now, sometimes you retreat just from that group, right? So if your viewpoint isn't accepted on Facebook, maybe you go to 8chan where they might agree with you in a different way, right? Or there might be a different recep um, you know, reception. Or on the other side of things, maybe if you don't have an audience that's willing to listen to you, you go to um, I think it's threads, um, is kind of the Democrat social media platform. So you might go to something like that. Um, so you retreat, or you double down, right? You get bigger, louder, more explosive. You come back harder against the other person, you know, you you send a thousand pizzas to their house and dox them. Um so those tend to be the things where you retreat. I grew up, um, you know, it's not a great thing. I'm so grateful that I had some coaching that allowed me to identify it. But my natural inclination when I came up upon a threat was what they call fawn, or I like to call it appease, um, flight, fright, um, flight, fright, freeze, or appease. And that was that I immediately got low and quiet and thought, like, how can I help you? How can I, how can I solve the situation? And um, you know, there's a definitely a not good way to do that. There's a toxic way to do that. But I find that as a pediatrician, when I'm dealing with a two-year-old that's terrified, it's super helpful for me to just take a step back and say, okay, I'm gonna slow down. I'm gonna create a surrounding of safety, I'm gonna reassert my positive intent. I'm gonna reassert that they have some control and some say in this situation. And I find that in situations of conflict, the that has been a good point for me when I'm talking with, you know, physicians that are frustrated at nursing staff and trying to be a physician leader and a go-between, where I the first thing I do is get low and quiet and take a step back and say, let's let's reconfirm that we have good intent here. Let's reconfirm what our goals are, that we want to be here for each other. Um, and I think on the political sphere, that's you know, the tack that I'm committed to taking is the same thing creating space, creating an understanding that um even if we fund even if we start out the conversation thinking that we fundamentally disagree, understanding that in the end, the future that we are approaching. Is the future for both of us? Environmentalists and agriculturalists don't get to design their own separate futures. We have one future together. And we can yell and clang and fight and accuse, but in the end, the future is still one future. And so we can fight through it or we can take a step back and we can reassure ourselves that in the end we want a future that is successful and beautiful. And then we can approach each other with respect and reconfirm our positive intent and move on from there. Hopefully, one of your next questions was how would you approach it differently? Because that's the answer I gave you.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Well, yeah, it kind of is, because ultimately it feels like there's a lot of moments in our in our public right now where people feel like I disagree with this person and I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna tell them how stupid they are, and then they're gonna agree with me. And my and like I'm being a little facetious here, but it does sort of feel like in the history of humankind, all it what there's eight billion of us now, and you can go all the way back to the beginning of human humanity. I'm not sure that's ever worked.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Ever. And yet we still seem to think like, oh no, that that's that's the solution. I'm gonna show them.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Right. It's um it's fisticuffs diplomacy, right? Or arm wrestling reasoning. Um, these are both things that I've seen implemented, um, even within the doctor's room. If I just if I just tell them that they can't leave here without a vaccine, if I tell them they can never come back if they don't get a vaccine, um then they'll come to my viewpoint. And um, yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. So uh same thing, you know, when Trump had people that were protesting at his rallies and his his goal is to have security take him out and give him a beat down. That's um a pretty good, pretty good look at what diplomacy was going to look like for him. My dog just yawned in the background. So that's what that noise was.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Oh good. Um, okay, so let's let's so this uh this podcast, like you know, is just based on his name, is is about the sides and sort of like the the complexities and the challenges of our of our system and sort of our our public. Can you tell me at its best when you're thinking about you can think about in terms of like the Democratic Party or the Left at its best what what are Democrats, people of the left, when they're operating at their best, what are they trying to accomplish? What are they trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Um though I honestly think that's been one of the biggest weaknesses of the Democratic Party is that a lot of our energy right now is spent on righting the wrongs of history, right? We're trying to equal the playing field. We're trying to make sure that um black farmers that historically weren't given loans and weren't given investment um have opportunities to kind of catch up. And so under um the Bill SAC, um, they were trying to do a lot of stuff. And then, of course, you know, the anti-DEI came in and got rid of all of that. Um, and you can see the same thing in business and in education, you know, that we're trying to right the wrongs of the past. Um and I don't think that Democrats have done a great job of saying what the vision of the future is. On the other hand, I feel like Republicans, one of the things I like to comment on is that Republicans often refer to the founding fathers as if they were these really stodgy conservative guys that were against change, you know, that we're just gonna continue in the way of the founding forefathers, you know, and we're we're just gonna ride that, ride that ship till the horizon. And in reality, the forefathers were, you know, their plan was a huge departure from anything history had ever seen before. They were visionaries. And not only were they visionary, visionaries in like seeing a new way of doing things, but in understanding that they couldn't possibly see all of the future. And so they left some open ends, right? They left some ability for us to morph what we were gonna do as a culture. So I really see the Democratic Party being a party of visionaries and saying, what does, if we were to have done this right, or if we for the next 25 years work towards writing the ship, what are we gonna be building? We don't, we don't want to just write the ship and then end at the same neutral place for everybody, because that neutral place for everybody is still crumbling. You know, even if we get rid of racial disparities in healthcare, we still have problems in healthcare, you know. Even if we get rid of the disparities, you know, for transgender rights, we still have problems with economic, you know, opportunities. So um we've spent so much time focusing on that and not enough time in crafting a future that everyone can believe in and that everyone can get behind. Um, I'm kind of against fantasy movies, to be honest, um, partially because I think we get all this emotional investment in a fantasy world rather than focusing on what we need to do in our true society in the here and now. And we we start thinking that we can solve problems with giant spaceships and Thor's hammer and all of that. So I don't love it because I'm like, this gives us nothing to go off of. But one thing I do appreciate at some of the fantasy stories that have come out is that they give a vision of what a society could look like with investment, innovation, and putting all of that towards the public good first and foremost, not towards individual profit, but public good first and foremost. And I think if as the Democratic Party, we start actually painting a vision, what do we want? You know, it's almost 2050 is not that far away. What do we want that to look like? Do we do we want our grandmothers to be begging on the streets because they got kicked out of their houses because they couldn't pay their taxes, even though their house was paid off? Do we want people to be making a decision between their food and their medications? Do we want to either be so ashamed of our past that we're still trying to make retribution for it, or just totally ignore it and then have all this infighting and civil wars just about how we educate about the past? I mean, is that what we want? Or do we want to take our past into account, learn from the past, use it to make ourselves stronger, look at our partners and our at our country folks on either side of us and say we are stronger together and we're gonna figure this out with optimism and innovation because we want our future to be brighter. And I think the Democrats need to provide a vision for that. So that's us at our best.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Okay. So you you've just spoken about the Democrats at their best, and but also you, I think, offered a thoughtful um uh criticism uh as as well, sort of wrapped up in in your um assessment of when the party and when it's when that size is its best. Let's do the same thing for the other side. Let's do that for Republicans when they are at their best, operating in good faith. What are they trying to accomplish? And then likewise, is you so I asked you that about Democrats, but but you also offered the challenges and the things where, hey, you know what, they're really missing the mark here. Can you do this, do the same thing, but for Republicans this time?

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Yeah, so I mean, it's been a while since I've been uh drinking the Kool-Aid on the red side to really fully understand what their deep values are. But I do understand enough to know that they don't want folks to be holding on the government. They want the government to be as efficient as possible and to aid but not hinder. Um, and so I think the Republicans at their best um will refocus that energy of um, you know, diminishing regulation and promoting um individual empowerment in a way that's equal across all the economic spectrums across all the different um, you know, rural and urban, um across all the divides that we have. And I agree that sometimes on the Democratic side, we speak of identity politics too much and we focus too much on that. But on the Republican side, I think them at their best is understanding that the climb upward is not the same for everyone and to utilize um tools within business, within capitalism, within finance to um give more opportunities for folks that haven't had opportunities in the past. So um I still see them needing to have some reality um even as they're focusing on individual empowerment to believe that everyone is deserving of opportunities for upward mobility.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

You have noted a couple of times in this discussion that the district that you are running in um has not voted for a Democrat since what, 1980, you said? It's been a minute. Yeah, it's been a minute five years.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

Yeah, when I was born.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

So let's let's um do a little bit of forecasting here. Let's say that this goes very well for you. Sure. You win your primary, you launch into the summer, you win. November shows up, and you shock the nation because if if that happened, you would be on all of the major news shows because they would all be saying on that night, this person who no one anticipated could win has pulled the impossible and has done it. So if that were to occur, you would eventually have a lot of constituents who uh eventually, hopefully they I mean if you won, then enough of them would have liked you to vote for you. But eventually, you know, you would be a Democrat, it'd be a very Republican district, there's gonna be a lot of folks who didn't vote for you and who would like to see you gone. Yeah. So with that, what would you do to build trust with people who strongly oppose you?

SPEAKER_02 54:56

Um, and I think that goes back to where I'm putting my energy and my focus. So if I am working across the aisle as much as I can, I mean, let's let's just say that, you know, in terms of agricultural bills, um, especially when you're looking at larger agricultural industry, um, that most of the the know-how and the heft on that sphere is in folks that have been making laws from the other side of the aisle. Um, so I hope that they will see me really joining in the fray and figuring out, okay, how can we make agricultural economies work? And how can we bust up these monopolies? And how can we make sure that we're looking at revitalization of these rural communities? I hope that even if my every position, like even if I vote for impeachment, um, that my energy and my um my stated intention will be followed by action of prioritizing the issues that will have the most profound impact on our district. Um and, you know, not everyone's gonna agree with you all the time, but I also hope to make myself um, you know, accountable to my constituents, which means reachable, which means that I'm gonna give explanations for why I'm doing what I'm doing, why I'm voting that way, um, and just really having an open door also for local experts to come and talk to me about this is your this is the unintended consequence of the way you're going. And then hopefully we could work together to not just scrap the idea, but to make the idea workable. Um, I think that's you know one of our weaknesses in our political system is for constantly throwing the baby out with the bathwater instead of making it work.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Okay, let's let's um unpack this fantasy a little bit more. You you've won, you're now you're in Washington, D.C. D.C.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Um my wife and I live there for about the last 15 years. I'm familiar with the place. I love it. How would you plan to build trust with your new congressional colleagues who would be there? So, how will you work specifically to work across the aisle with Republicans who you may not agree with?

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Um I've heard that in the past uh there was a lot more of a culture of um people in Congress kind of staying over and working through the weekend or doing um kind of local things there. And certainly as often as I can um utilize those um outside the working hours times, um whether it's being part of the prayer breakfast. Like I said, I I am a believer and I know that's a place where a lot of people um congregate, but doing all those things where um where there is common ground, um, you know, whether it's in a mother's caucus or um, you know, there's a lot of other kind of softer side um things. And so just utilizing those connections, I also had the advantage that I I've lived in several different states. And so I can um, you know, have some connections from folks from Pennsylvania and Iowa and Ohio, um, which are other states I've lived in, to just try and reach across the aisle and again find those connections. So um it's certainly something I've done pretty easily in every other uh time of my life. Um and so sometimes those softer things are what get you the connection. They also um remind you of your common ground and your common convictions, and that's a great way to start when you're building a bill or trying to get input on your own things that you're writing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Do you have time for one more question?

SPEAKER_02 58:56

I do.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Okay, let's do one more. Um imagine you are speaking with someone who just disagrees with you fundamentally. You're sitting down to cough here or whatever it is you might like to do. You sit down, and this person says, Look, I don't get you. I don't I don't agree with you, whatever it might be. But this person is thoughtful, kind enough to say, here's what we're I want to do for the next five minutes. I want to listen to you. I'm not gonna interrupt, I'm not gonna fact check, I'm not gonna dispute you. I want to understand sort of where you're coming from in this space that seems so foreign to that person. Um I don't have access to speak for five minutes, but what would be the things that you would want to articulate to that person? So that at least you'd probably change their mind, but at least they would understand.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

Sure. Um I mean, to be honest, if I was in that situation, what I would do is actually ask them for their story, ask them for their key moments. What are the things that help them arrive at the values that they, you know, that define them? Um I think the other thing I would do, um, especially from my perspective, is find the things that I used to agree with them on and that I no longer do. So um, you know, a lot of the standard Christian right views are views that I grew up believing, are views I was on the picket line for, you know, as a as a youth and um, you know, someone that was coming into that community. Um and so I think talking to them about where my decision pivot points came from, um, and what perspectives, whether it was real world um things or whether it was just listening to someone else's story that opened my mind to a different perspective. Um I think those would be the biggest things that I would want to connect with them on. Um one thing, for example, on the transgender um issue, I um I have a best friend that while I've gotten more and more kind of open-minded about some of these issues, um, she's gotten a lot more traditional and fundamentalist. And I went out to visit her just a couple years ago for Thanksgiving. And while we were all sitting down and she was showing me pictures of her family, she's from a really large family. Um, she pulled up one that her husband hadn't seen yet of her brother's kids, and he scoffed with just grimaced, was really put off because um her sons are sorry, her brother's kids' sons had long hair. And he, I mean, they're little, they're like two-year-olds, four-year-olds, six-year-olds, like really little kids. And he was just incensed that they let their sons have long hair. And I looked at him and I was like, You have long hair. He's like, But I have a beard. You can tell that I'm a man. And he was just really offended that you know, these young boys would have long hair. And that same day, I drove by the local Starbucks and put in my order. And the guy at the other line was, you know, just so cheery. Hey, how can I help you? Can I get your order? And then we get up to the window, and his joy was effusive. And he had a beard on and sparkly accessories, including sparkly earrings. And I don't remember what all he was wearing, but it was pretty clear that this was a genderqueer person or you know, a non-binary. I didn't ask. Um, but it was so clear that this person was filled with light and happiness, so much so that they were sharing it with the world. And to me, that moment was a moment of connection on a profound spiritual truth. That whether you believe in God or not, the fact of the matter is this guy was so clearly living his purpose, and he was living in skin that made him proud and comfortable and loving. And my friend's husband was so filled with judgmentalism and bitterness that it made your heart ache. And the juxtaposition of those two things really reiterated to me what the God of my faith would be pleased with. And it allowed me to have freedom to have a different perspective than I did before. So that would be a pivot moment for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

Well, I think that's a a lovely place to end. Um, Rebecca, thank you so much for taking some time to have a pretty thorough conversation with me. Um, I've enjoyed this. I think other folks who listen will enjoy it as well. So uh thank you. And I think you're um I hope that no matter what happens, that this campaign is um is what you want it to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Thanks. Yeah, part of my goal is just to elevate the conversation to get us out of the ugliness. And if that's all I accomplished, then it will be a job well a job well worth it.